WEBVTT - Hell and Gone Murder Line: Christina Pipkin Part 1 (Archive Episode)

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<v Speaker 1>School of Humans. Helen Got Murder Line actively investigates cold

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<v Speaker 1>case murders in an effort to raise public awareness invite

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<v Speaker 1>witnesses to come forward and present evidence that could potentially

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<v Speaker 1>be further investigated by law enforcement. While we value insights

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<v Speaker 1>from family and community members, their statements should not be

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<v Speaker 1>considered evidence and point to the challenges of verifying facts

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<v Speaker 1>inherent in cold cases. We remind listeners that everyone has

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<v Speaker 1>presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

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<v Speaker 1>Nothing in the podcast is intended to state or imply

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<v Speaker 1>that anyone who has not been convicted of a crime

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<v Speaker 1>is guilty of any wrongdoing. Thanks for listening.

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<v Speaker 2>On May fourth, nineteen ninety one, nine year old Christina

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<v Speaker 2>Pipkin had lunch with her mother, Freda, at her home

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<v Speaker 2>in Hickory Ridge, Arkansas. Christina was just a month away

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<v Speaker 2>from her tenth birthday. Hickory Ridge is a small farming

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<v Speaker 2>community in East ark Kansaw down Highway forty nine, about

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<v Speaker 2>eighty miles west of Memphis, Tennessee. Back then, it had

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<v Speaker 2>a population of just over four hundred people. Today it's

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<v Speaker 2>between two and three hundred people. But you get the idea.

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<v Speaker 2>This is not a major metropolis. You have to remember

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<v Speaker 2>this was a time when kids would roam around after school.

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<v Speaker 2>That was a lot more common than it is today.

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<v Speaker 2>They would ride bikes and play in the woods, and

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<v Speaker 2>of course this was also a time before cell phones.

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<v Speaker 2>Christina Pipkin had a mission that day. She wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>walk door to door to sell costume jewelry for her

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<v Speaker 2>school fundraiser. She had her leaflet with the jewelry listings

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<v Speaker 2>on it and was carrying a pencil so that people

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<v Speaker 2>could mark down what they wanted to order. Christina asked

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<v Speaker 2>her dad, James, if she could go around to neighbors houses,

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<v Speaker 2>and at first he said no, but Christina asked again

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<v Speaker 2>and he relented. But her father gave her strict instructions

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<v Speaker 2>stay on your side of the railroad tracks and be

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<v Speaker 2>home by dark. But Christina didn't make it back home

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<v Speaker 2>before dark. On May fourth, nineteen ninety one, sunset and

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<v Speaker 2>Hickory Ridge, Arkansas, happened at around seven fifty six pm.

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<v Speaker 2>Christina's parents, James and Frieda, reported her missing to the

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<v Speaker 2>Cross County Sheriff's department at eight fifty three pm. Soon

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<v Speaker 2>everyone was looking for her. Over two hundred volunteers were

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<v Speaker 2>searching the entire area. They covered a fifteen mile radius.

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<v Speaker 2>They were calling friends and knocking on doors going to

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<v Speaker 2>nearby houses, but there was no sign of Christina anywhere.

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<v Speaker 2>Christina's description went out Christina Pipkin, age nine, four foot nine,

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<v Speaker 2>weight eighty pounds. She was wearing a white desert storm

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<v Speaker 2>T shirt with Kuwait on the front and closed toe

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<v Speaker 2>white sandals. Three days later, on May seventh, nineteen ninety one,

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<v Speaker 2>a father and son who lived a few miles away

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<v Speaker 2>right across the Jackson County line, were walking through their

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<v Speaker 2>rice fields. There had been some flooding recently, so they

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<v Speaker 2>were looking around on their property to check the water levels.

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<v Speaker 2>They lived near a large canal called cow Lake Ditch.

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<v Speaker 2>After the flooding, the water levels were much higher than normal.

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<v Speaker 2>Police later said the levels were up to around nine

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<v Speaker 2>feet that day, and as they were walking over the

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<v Speaker 2>bridge that crossed Highway forty two, the seven year old

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<v Speaker 2>son saw something in the water. He said, Dad, isn't

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<v Speaker 2>that the girl that's missing. They had found the body

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<v Speaker 2>of Christina Pipkin. I'm Catherine Townsend. If you have a

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<v Speaker 2>case you'd like me and my team to look into,

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<v Speaker 2>you can reach out to us at our Helen Gone

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<v Speaker 2>Murder line at six seven eight seven four four six'

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<v Speaker 2>one four. Five this Is Helen Gone Murder. LINE a

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<v Speaker 2>few weeks, ago a woman Named Amy tubbs reached out to.

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<v Speaker 2>Me she had been investigating The Christina pipkin case for,

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<v Speaker 2>years ever since she learned that her father in, Law Robbie, Tubbs.

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<v Speaker 2>Sr had been a suspect in that.

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<v Speaker 3>Case So i'm Married Robbie Tubbs, senior his son who

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<v Speaker 3>shares the same, name except there's a junior behind. It

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<v Speaker 3>so we started dating in twenty, fourteen and on one

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<v Speaker 3>of our first, dates my mom called me really freaked

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<v Speaker 3>out and she, said oh my, gosh are you with?

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<v Speaker 3>Him you need to get your stuff and leave right.

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<v Speaker 3>Now and what are you talking? About and her and

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<v Speaker 3>my aunt had googled his name obviously and found you,

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<v Speaker 3>know the various articles linking him To christina and NOT

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<v Speaker 3>i guess thought about the dates and how you know

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<v Speaker 3>he was the child himself would not, happen and so

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<v Speaker 3>he was, like, well this is not HOW i wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to tell you about, that but here we.

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<v Speaker 2>Go amy said that she's always had an interest in true.

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<v Speaker 2>Crime she wanted to know the truth about what. Happened

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<v Speaker 2>so she did a deep dive into the, case and

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<v Speaker 2>the more she, learned the more questions she.

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<v Speaker 3>Had so WHEN i started looking into the case and

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<v Speaker 3>just kind of googling, IT i couldn't believe that there

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<v Speaker 3>was so little evidence that they used against him and

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<v Speaker 3>that they were seeking the death.

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<v Speaker 2>Penalty christina's body was found in Cow Lake. Ditch she

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<v Speaker 2>was face down and her head was caught in a tree,

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<v Speaker 2>Branch so even though the current was really strong and

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<v Speaker 2>the water levels were, High christina was wedged in, there.

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<v Speaker 2>Trapped the police recovered the body and sent it for.

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<v Speaker 2>Testing they later revealed That christina's body had no sign

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<v Speaker 2>of injuries on it and that she was fully. Clothed

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<v Speaker 2>christina's family members said early on that she couldn't. Swim

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<v Speaker 2>but even though the police said they found no obvious

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<v Speaker 2>signs of molestation On christina's, Body Dale, arnold the state police,

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<v Speaker 2>investigator said very early on police suspected foul. Play they

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<v Speaker 2>did not believe That christina had gotten to Cow Lake

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<v Speaker 2>ditch on her. Own Cross County Sheriff Ronnie hughey said,

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<v Speaker 2>quote there were no marks on, her no, scratches no,

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<v Speaker 2>trauma nothing BUT i think it's foul. Play somebody caused

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<v Speaker 2>that child to be in that ditchway out there end.

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<v Speaker 2>Quote but if there was no, obvious visible sign of,

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<v Speaker 2>assault why are they so certain that this involved foul.

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<v Speaker 3>Play nobody in that town will talk to. ME i

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<v Speaker 3>don't know if it's because my Name's. TUBS i mean

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<v Speaker 3>there's a strong. Chance but about that state police had

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<v Speaker 3>everything locked down and started acting real fishy WHEN i

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<v Speaker 3>started asking. QUESTIONS i guess the reason why they suspect

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<v Speaker 3>foul play was two. Things, one it was about three

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<v Speaker 3>miles from her house and they don't feel like she

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<v Speaker 3>would have gone that. Far and she had on white

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<v Speaker 3>closed toad sandals the last time anyone, saw and they

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<v Speaker 3>never faiund those.

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<v Speaker 2>Sandals amy has done a lot of work over the.

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<v Speaker 2>Years she's submitted multiple foyer, Requests she's contacted people and

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<v Speaker 2>mapped out, locations and as she, mentioned she said That

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<v Speaker 2>christina's body was found around three miles away from her,

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<v Speaker 2>home but some newspaper reports say the distance between Where

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<v Speaker 2>christina was last seen and the ditch where she was

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<v Speaker 2>eventually found was around four. Miles others estimate the distances

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<v Speaker 2>closer to five. Miles and it's confusing because WHEN i

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<v Speaker 2>looked On Google maps and tried to map this location,

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<v Speaker 2>myself it showed a walking distance of nine, miles which

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<v Speaker 2>would have Taken christina about three hours to get. To

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<v Speaker 2>this does not seem, plausible BUT i know this is

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<v Speaker 2>a rural area and appearances can be. Deceiving sometimes distances

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<v Speaker 2>are not an accurate depiction of what's actually going on

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<v Speaker 2>on the. Ground sometimes there are shortcuts that we can't see.

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<v Speaker 2>Online SO i feel like this is one of those

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<v Speaker 2>questions That i'm going to have to go To arkansas to.

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<v Speaker 2>Answer After christina went, missing detectives went around the neighborhood

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<v Speaker 2>and interviewed the people who had last seen. Her while,

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<v Speaker 2>canvassing they talked to a woman Named Elsie. Lyles Elsie

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<v Speaker 2>lyles lived On Dotye, street right down From christina's. House

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<v Speaker 2>elsie said That christina had stopped by her house at

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<v Speaker 2>around four. Pm elsie said she Gave christina a pickle

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<v Speaker 2>as a. Snack after eating that, Pickle christina Left elsie's

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<v Speaker 2>house and walked. Home that's when she asked her dad

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<v Speaker 2>if she could walk around to do her door to

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<v Speaker 2>door jewelry. Sales christina had two school friends with. Her

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<v Speaker 2>they told police that for the next or so they

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<v Speaker 2>went around selling their jewelry door to. Door according to

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<v Speaker 2>the Information amy, has the girls told law enforcement they

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<v Speaker 2>Left christina at about six thirty pm At East Ash.

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<v Speaker 2>Street this was just a couple of blocks From christina's. Home,

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<v Speaker 2>NOW i haven't seen any of the official reports pertaining

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<v Speaker 2>To christina's. Case technically it's still an open case. FILE

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<v Speaker 2>i have made a foyer request AND i will let

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<v Speaker 2>you know IF i hear back from. Police BUT i

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<v Speaker 2>just want to put it out. THERE i would love

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<v Speaker 2>to talk to those, girls if they are out there

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<v Speaker 2>and if they're listening to, this BECAUSE i believe they

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<v Speaker 2>could have crucial information About christina's activities that, afternoon and

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<v Speaker 2>they might not even realize how important it. Is detectives

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<v Speaker 2>later found remnants of the pickle In christina's, stomach partially,

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<v Speaker 2>undigested which means that police believe she died on the

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<v Speaker 2>same day she went. Missing so we go back to that,

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<v Speaker 2>Day may, fourth nineteen ninety. One it's late, afternoon getting

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<v Speaker 2>to early. Evening christina's friends parted ways with her at

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<v Speaker 2>around six thirty. Pm, Now christina's dad specifically told her

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<v Speaker 2>to be home before. Dark so whether it was three

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<v Speaker 2>or four miles or nine, miles what would make a

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<v Speaker 2>little girl suddenly decide to walk on her own to

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<v Speaker 2>a ditch right before dark when she couldn't. Swim there

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<v Speaker 2>were a few other odd facts about the case that

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<v Speaker 2>could seem to point toward foul. Play they're mainly, circumstantial

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<v Speaker 2>like the fact that detectives never found the items That

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<v Speaker 2>christina was carrying when she left her. House they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>find her, jewelry, leaflets or the pencil she was carrying

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<v Speaker 2>around with her to write down. Orders, Also christina's body

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<v Speaker 2>was fully, clothed as we said, before she was wearing

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<v Speaker 2>the same things she'd been wearing the afternoon she, disappeared

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<v Speaker 2>but her shoes were, missing and no one ever found

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<v Speaker 2>her clothes toe white. Sandals so what happened to the?

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<v Speaker 2>Shoes did she take them off? Herself could someone have

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<v Speaker 2>been chasing her through those, dense watery rice fields and

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<v Speaker 2>her shoes peeled off her, Feet that is, Possible or

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<v Speaker 2>was she hanging out at someone's house or in their

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<v Speaker 2>car and took them off. Herself if she was, killed

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<v Speaker 2>did the killer take the shoes did they throw them

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<v Speaker 2>away or did they still have them stashed. Somewhere these

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<v Speaker 2>are all the types of dark possibilities that have occurred

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<v Speaker 2>to me with this. Case as we said, before the

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<v Speaker 2>sheriff Of Cross, county Where christina and her family, Lived Ronnie,

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<v Speaker 2>hughey actually said at the time the detectives Believed christina

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<v Speaker 2>was picked up and driven to the site where her

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<v Speaker 2>body was, found and he's given a couple of reasons

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<v Speaker 2>over the years to media about why he thinks. This

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<v Speaker 2>first of, all he, said if she walked to that

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<v Speaker 2>area would have taken a pretty long, time and he

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<v Speaker 2>believes someone would have seen her out. Walking number two

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<v Speaker 2>kind of along the same lines AS i was, thinking

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<v Speaker 2>just the fact that it was near. Dark christina was

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of blocks from, home and she was supposed

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<v Speaker 2>to be home before. Dark why would she randomly turn

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<v Speaker 2>around and walk in the other direction hours away to

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<v Speaker 2>a flooded ditch when she couldn't. Swim detectives did a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of, interviews but they didn't make any, arrests and

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<v Speaker 2>over the, years a lot of people in the county

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<v Speaker 2>wondered why the case seemed to go cold And christina's

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<v Speaker 2>body was not the last child's body found In east

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<v Speaker 2>dark andsas over the next few. Years On october, thirteenth

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety, one a few months After christina's body was,

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<v Speaker 2>found sixteen year Old Guardinia Jones cross. Disappeared guardinia was

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<v Speaker 2>a tenth grader at high school in, when a nearby.

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<v Speaker 2>Town she lived with her, Grandmother Hattie. Cross guardina was

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<v Speaker 2>also a young mother. Herself she was raising a one

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<v Speaker 2>year old. Daughter guardinia's, Grandmother, hattie reported her, missing But

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<v Speaker 2>guardina was not missing for long because the next, day

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<v Speaker 2>On october, fourteenth a man was walking along the side

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<v Speaker 2>of a road Called Moore road outside of when he

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<v Speaker 2>was collecting cans and he saw a body naked except

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<v Speaker 2>for a. Bra it Was Guardinia. Cross guardena had a

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<v Speaker 2>puncture wound in her, head which investigators theorized was made

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<v Speaker 2>with something like a, tool maybe a, screwdriver and unlike

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<v Speaker 2>In christina's, case this time there was no ambiguity this

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<v Speaker 2>had been a brutal. Murder forensic testing revealed something. Else

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<v Speaker 2>when she, Died Guardenia cross was around five months. Pregnant

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<v Speaker 2>no one was arrested or charged with that. Murder In

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<v Speaker 2>may of nineteen ninety. Two another young, girl a thirteen

0:15:45.001 --> 0:15:49.241
<v Speaker 2>year old Named Geneva, smith was reported. Missing On june,

0:15:49.281 --> 0:15:52.161
<v Speaker 2>first a body was found in The Saint Francis. River

0:15:53.241 --> 0:15:56.681
<v Speaker 2>remember this was back in the, nineties BEFORE dna testing was,

0:15:56.761 --> 0:16:00.601
<v Speaker 2>widespread and police had nothing to go. On they didn't

0:16:00.601 --> 0:16:04.481
<v Speaker 2>even have dental records to compare With. Geneva but investigators

0:16:04.481 --> 0:16:06.721
<v Speaker 2>said at the time they were ninety nine percent sure

0:16:07.081 --> 0:16:09.961
<v Speaker 2>that the body was her based on the clothing that

0:16:10.001 --> 0:16:13.321
<v Speaker 2>she was. Wearing the shoes and shirt matched the description

0:16:13.401 --> 0:16:15.921
<v Speaker 2>That geneva's family had given of what she'd been wearing

0:16:15.921 --> 0:16:20.081
<v Speaker 2>the day she went. Missing this was a. Tragedy they

0:16:20.121 --> 0:16:24.241
<v Speaker 2>did eventually determine that this Was Geneva. Smith the body

0:16:24.321 --> 0:16:28.601
<v Speaker 2>was so decomposed they weren't able to determine the exact

0:16:28.601 --> 0:16:31.361
<v Speaker 2>cause of. Death and not only, that all they could

0:16:31.401 --> 0:16:35.361
<v Speaker 2>determine at first was that the victim was. Black they

0:16:35.401 --> 0:16:38.361
<v Speaker 2>couldn't even figure out what gender the body. Was it

0:16:38.441 --> 0:16:43.641
<v Speaker 2>was that badly decomposed and. BRUTALIZED i cannot imagine how

0:16:43.841 --> 0:16:46.481
<v Speaker 2>horrifying that must have been for that young woman's. Family

0:16:48.681 --> 0:16:52.641
<v Speaker 2>so what happened in that. Case eventually police did make an.

0:16:52.721 --> 0:16:57.481
<v Speaker 2>Arrest they charged two suspects with that, killing but those

0:16:57.521 --> 0:17:01.921
<v Speaker 2>two men were, released So Geneva smith's killer or killers

0:17:01.961 --> 0:17:09.801
<v Speaker 2>are also still out. There then In may of nineteen ninety,

0:17:09.801 --> 0:17:13.201
<v Speaker 2>three there, was of, course the three eight year old,

0:17:13.201 --> 0:17:17.521
<v Speaker 2>Boys Michael, Moore Steve branch And Christopher, byers the boys

0:17:17.521 --> 0:17:20.600
<v Speaker 2>who had become known as The West Memphis. Three the

0:17:20.681 --> 0:17:23.360
<v Speaker 2>three friends went out for an after school bike ride

0:17:23.681 --> 0:17:27.680
<v Speaker 2>and they never came. Home their mutilated bodies were found

0:17:27.681 --> 0:17:32.281
<v Speaker 2>in a nearby. Swamp, now eventually this case became a national,

0:17:32.321 --> 0:17:35.321
<v Speaker 2>sensation and most of my listeners will be familiar with

0:17:35.360 --> 0:17:38.321
<v Speaker 2>what happened. Next in The West memphis three, case sixteen

0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.521
<v Speaker 2>year Old jesse Mus, kelly seventeen year Old James, baldwin

0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:45.921
<v Speaker 2>and eighteen year Old Damian eccles were, arrested, prosecuted and eventually.

0:17:45.921 --> 0:17:50.561
<v Speaker 2>Convicted jesse And james got life, Sentences damien was sentenced to.

0:17:50.601 --> 0:17:54.281
<v Speaker 2>Death all of them sat in jail for many years

0:17:54.681 --> 0:17:57.881
<v Speaker 2>before numerous documentaries and books came out about this, case

0:17:58.401 --> 0:18:01.920
<v Speaker 2>and they documented the many injustices that had, happened the

0:18:01.921 --> 0:18:04.721
<v Speaker 2>fact that there was NO dna evidence that matched any of,

0:18:04.761 --> 0:18:07.920
<v Speaker 2>them no physical, evidence and there were a lot of

0:18:08.001 --> 0:18:11.441
<v Speaker 2>problems With jesse mckelly's confession in, particular which had gone

0:18:11.481 --> 0:18:15.721
<v Speaker 2>on for over twelve. Hours, Basically, Damien, james And jesse

0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:19.001
<v Speaker 2>were convicted in an atmosphere of fear In West, memphis

0:18:19.681 --> 0:18:23.401
<v Speaker 2>and this followed the satanic panic hysteria that happened during

0:18:23.441 --> 0:18:26.840
<v Speaker 2>the nineteen. Eighties Because damien was this kind of weird

0:18:26.921 --> 0:18:29.481
<v Speaker 2>local guy who listened to heavy metal and wore black

0:18:29.521 --> 0:18:33.121
<v Speaker 2>and was reportedly into, witchcraft the police just a laser

0:18:33.201 --> 0:18:37.001
<v Speaker 2>focused on him and they refused to change. Course over the,

0:18:37.121 --> 0:18:40.481
<v Speaker 2>years all three of them maintained their innocence and NEW

0:18:40.561 --> 0:18:43.160
<v Speaker 2>dna testing was done in two thousand and. Seven it

0:18:43.201 --> 0:18:45.161
<v Speaker 2>was a nounce that THE dna found at the crime

0:18:45.201 --> 0:18:47.441
<v Speaker 2>scene did not match any of. Them it didn't Match,

0:18:47.521 --> 0:18:52.441
<v Speaker 2>Damien jesse Or. James, furthermore there WAS dna at that crime,

0:18:52.481 --> 0:18:58.281
<v Speaker 2>scene THE dna of an unknown. Man in twenty, ten

0:18:58.401 --> 0:19:02.281
<v Speaker 2>The Supreme court ruled that the defendants could present new

0:19:02.321 --> 0:19:07.521
<v Speaker 2>evidence to establish their. Innocence so the three of them

0:19:07.521 --> 0:19:09.681
<v Speaker 2>have been sitting in jail for over twenty years and

0:19:09.721 --> 0:19:12.201
<v Speaker 2>they were getting ready for a new, trial, which as

0:19:12.201 --> 0:19:15.001
<v Speaker 2>we all, know could have taken. Years that's when one

0:19:15.001 --> 0:19:17.961
<v Speaker 2>of the defense attorneys suggested the men take something called

0:19:18.001 --> 0:19:21.600
<v Speaker 2>An alfred. Plea, now An alfred plea is kind of.

0:19:21.681 --> 0:19:24.201
<v Speaker 2>Unique what it means is that they could still claim

0:19:24.241 --> 0:19:28.921
<v Speaker 2>they were innocent while not changing their guilty. Plea it's

0:19:29.001 --> 0:19:31.721
<v Speaker 2>kind of a way of having it both. Ways the

0:19:31.761 --> 0:19:34.041
<v Speaker 2>state gets to save. Face they don't have to have

0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:37.640
<v Speaker 2>a new. Trial they still have their guilty, plea And,

0:19:37.801 --> 0:19:41.120
<v Speaker 2>Damian jesse And james don't have to waste more years

0:19:41.121 --> 0:19:43.041
<v Speaker 2>of their lives waiting for a new. Trial they get

0:19:43.041 --> 0:19:45.481
<v Speaker 2>to get out of jail and start their. Lives so

0:19:45.561 --> 0:19:49.441
<v Speaker 2>in twenty, eleven that's what. Happened the three defendants were

0:19:49.481 --> 0:19:51.880
<v Speaker 2>released without having to go through a new trial and

0:19:51.921 --> 0:19:56.241
<v Speaker 2>having the verdict. Overturn it's an ambiguous. Result the case

0:19:56.321 --> 0:19:59.441
<v Speaker 2>is still. Open damien and his attorneys are still fighting

0:19:59.441 --> 0:20:02.681
<v Speaker 2>to GET dna from the crime. Scene An arkansas judge

0:20:02.721 --> 0:20:06.041
<v Speaker 2>has denied that. Request the judge said that he was

0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:10.401
<v Speaker 2>denying the request Because damien's out of prison. Now damien

0:20:10.441 --> 0:20:13.081
<v Speaker 2>and his lawyers have appealed this decision to The Arkansas Supreme,

0:20:13.121 --> 0:20:15.281
<v Speaker 2>court and they are still waiting to find out if

0:20:15.281 --> 0:20:18.600
<v Speaker 2>THAT dna testing can. Happen, remember this saga has been

0:20:18.641 --> 0:20:21.001
<v Speaker 2>going on for over thirty years at this, point and

0:20:21.041 --> 0:20:25.041
<v Speaker 2>there's still no final. ANSWER i bring this case up

0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:28.921
<v Speaker 2>BECAUSE i absolutely believe that if it hadn't been for

0:20:29.001 --> 0:20:32.401
<v Speaker 2>the fact that all of these injustices were documented by

0:20:32.481 --> 0:20:36.400
<v Speaker 2>journalists and books and, documentaries the problems with this case

0:20:36.441 --> 0:20:40.041
<v Speaker 2>would never have been. Revealed all three of those, Guys, Damien,

0:20:40.161 --> 0:20:42.961
<v Speaker 2>jesse And james would still be sitting in prison right.

0:20:43.001 --> 0:20:46.161
<v Speaker 2>NOW i really believe. That and this was all going

0:20:46.201 --> 0:20:49.321
<v Speaker 2>on in the early. Nineties especially during this, time there

0:20:49.321 --> 0:20:52.361
<v Speaker 2>were some very real abuses going on In, arkansas both

0:20:52.361 --> 0:20:55.201
<v Speaker 2>in law enforcement and in the crime, lab and the

0:20:55.241 --> 0:20:59.601
<v Speaker 2>repercussions of those mistakes are still going on to this. Day,

0:21:00.281 --> 0:21:04.761
<v Speaker 2>also if those three guys weren't the, killers that means

0:21:04.761 --> 0:21:07.441
<v Speaker 2>that the actual killer of The West memphis, three the

0:21:07.601 --> 0:21:11.521
<v Speaker 2>person or persons who mutilated those three little boys and

0:21:11.641 --> 0:21:14.241
<v Speaker 2>dumped them in the, swamp is still out, there and

0:21:14.281 --> 0:21:16.561
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people worry they may never be. Charged

0:21:17.801 --> 0:21:21.400
<v Speaker 2>who knows how many predatory child killers are still out

0:21:21.441 --> 0:21:28.241
<v Speaker 2>there In East arkansas. Now despite the fact that all

0:21:28.241 --> 0:21:32.761
<v Speaker 2>of these deaths happened in the same general, area investigators

0:21:32.761 --> 0:21:35.521
<v Speaker 2>have never found a connection between any of them between

0:21:35.561 --> 0:21:39.321
<v Speaker 2>The West memphis, Three Guardina Cross, Jones Geneva, smith And Christina.

0:21:39.361 --> 0:21:42.241
<v Speaker 2>Pipkin there were a lot of. Differences the dead children

0:21:42.281 --> 0:21:46.681
<v Speaker 2>were different. Ages, guardina like The West MEMPHIS, iii had

0:21:46.681 --> 0:21:49.281
<v Speaker 2>a lot of damage to her, body, while for, Example

0:21:49.401 --> 0:21:52.840
<v Speaker 2>christina did not have any obvious marks on. Her Apparently

0:21:52.881 --> 0:21:55.401
<v Speaker 2>Geneva smith's body was too decomposed to know for. Sure

0:21:57.521 --> 0:22:01.841
<v Speaker 2>Cross County Sheriff Ronnie hughey expressed his frustration back. Then he, said,

0:22:01.921 --> 0:22:06.080
<v Speaker 2>quote you keep scratching and clawing and. Digging these kinds

0:22:06.121 --> 0:22:09.401
<v Speaker 2>of cases are different because these are. Kids we've been

0:22:09.441 --> 0:22:15.681
<v Speaker 2>backwards and. Forwards it's been very. Frustrating end. Quote now

0:22:15.801 --> 0:22:18.961
<v Speaker 2>let's come back to The Christina pipkin. Case let's talk

0:22:18.961 --> 0:22:23.281
<v Speaker 2>about what happened after police finally made an. Arrest police

0:22:23.281 --> 0:22:25.921
<v Speaker 2>were questioning everyone in the neighborhood that were checking out

0:22:25.921 --> 0:22:29.481
<v Speaker 2>potential people of, interest, including from what my source, says

0:22:29.801 --> 0:22:33.281
<v Speaker 2>some local sex, offenders including one guy From florida who

0:22:33.361 --> 0:22:37.321
<v Speaker 2>was living. Nearby then they began to focus on someone

0:22:37.401 --> 0:22:40.161
<v Speaker 2>they considered A bible. Suspect and this is Where amy's

0:22:40.161 --> 0:22:43.920
<v Speaker 2>father in, Law Robbie, tubbs enters the story and he

0:22:43.921 --> 0:22:47.120
<v Speaker 2>admits that her father in law, was in her, words

0:22:47.161 --> 0:22:51.641
<v Speaker 2>not a particularly good. Man back in the early, Nineties

0:22:52.041 --> 0:22:54.921
<v Speaker 2>robbie was married and he and his, Wife sandra had five.

0:22:55.041 --> 0:22:59.521
<v Speaker 2>Kids according To, Amy robbie was physically abusive with his

0:22:59.561 --> 0:23:03.361
<v Speaker 2>Wife sandra at. Times robbie didn't have a regular nine

0:23:03.401 --> 0:23:05.961
<v Speaker 2>to five. Job he always did kind of side. Jobs

0:23:06.401 --> 0:23:09.041
<v Speaker 2>he would go out turtle hunting and fishing and selling

0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:14.801
<v Speaker 2>things that he. Caught Sandra tubbs talked to the police

0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:18.361
<v Speaker 2>In october of nineteen ninety, one a few months After

0:23:18.481 --> 0:23:21.841
<v Speaker 2>christina's body was. Found when she came in to see,

0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:24.481
<v Speaker 2>them she told them that back When christina first went,

0:23:24.601 --> 0:23:27.681
<v Speaker 2>Missing robbie had made a comment to her that she

0:23:27.801 --> 0:23:30.681
<v Speaker 2>said disturbed her and it led her to believe that he,

0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:35.281
<v Speaker 2>had in a way potentially confessed To christina's. Murder sandra

0:23:35.401 --> 0:23:38.360
<v Speaker 2>Said robbie told, her right after hearing That christina was,

0:23:38.401 --> 0:23:41.801
<v Speaker 2>missing that he Knew christina would turn up dead in

0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:46.281
<v Speaker 2>a rice ditch In Jackson. County she told police That robbie, said,

0:23:46.361 --> 0:23:49.961
<v Speaker 2>quote there are too many rice ditches for somebody to drown.

0:23:50.001 --> 0:23:54.681
<v Speaker 2>In she's dead end. Quote sandra said she confronted her

0:23:54.761 --> 0:23:56.721
<v Speaker 2>husband and started asking him what he meant by that.

0:23:56.761 --> 0:24:01.041
<v Speaker 2>Comment when she, did the fight seemed to. Escalate sandra

0:24:01.121 --> 0:24:04.521
<v Speaker 2>said she threatened to call the, police and that's when

0:24:04.601 --> 0:24:07.600
<v Speaker 2>she Said robbie tied her up and gagged her to

0:24:07.601 --> 0:24:11.761
<v Speaker 2>stop her from calling law. Enforcement sandra told a friend of,

0:24:11.801 --> 0:24:14.801
<v Speaker 2>hers a woman Named, susan the same story at the. Time,

0:24:15.641 --> 0:24:18.361
<v Speaker 2>later police Called sandra's friend and took a statement from,

0:24:18.361 --> 0:24:21.721
<v Speaker 2>her and that friend confirmed that, Yes sandra had told

0:24:21.721 --> 0:24:24.001
<v Speaker 2>her that story at around the time When christina went.

0:24:24.041 --> 0:24:27.281
<v Speaker 2>Missing so the police went to talk To Robbie. Tubbs

0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:32.841
<v Speaker 2>Arkansas State police Investigator Dale arnold did the. Interview according

0:24:32.881 --> 0:24:35.961
<v Speaker 2>to police, documents the first time That Dale arnold talked To,

0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:39.761
<v Speaker 2>Robbie robbie claimed he was not in the area Of

0:24:39.801 --> 0:24:43.521
<v Speaker 2>Hickory ridge at all On may, fourth nineteen ninety, one

0:24:43.801 --> 0:24:46.001
<v Speaker 2>so he said he was nowhere near the area Where

0:24:46.080 --> 0:24:50.201
<v Speaker 2>christina went missing, From but later he apparently changed his.

0:24:50.281 --> 0:24:52.880
<v Speaker 2>Story he said he may have been around there on

0:24:52.921 --> 0:24:57.721
<v Speaker 2>the Day christina. Disappeared police were finding issues With robbie's.

0:24:57.761 --> 0:25:01.321
<v Speaker 2>Alibi robbie claimed he had been staying in a motel And, DeWitt,

0:25:01.401 --> 0:25:05.681
<v Speaker 2>arkansas but police checked the motel registration they couldn't find

0:25:05.721 --> 0:25:10.281
<v Speaker 2>any record Of robbie staying, there probably because police Believed

0:25:10.401 --> 0:25:13.561
<v Speaker 2>christina had been driven to that. Location, obviously they were

0:25:13.641 --> 0:25:17.241
<v Speaker 2>checking out every person of interest. Car at some point

0:25:17.281 --> 0:25:20.481
<v Speaker 2>police figured out That robbie had a, car a nineteen

0:25:20.521 --> 0:25:24.001
<v Speaker 2>eighty ONE Amc eagle that he had sold sometime in

0:25:24.041 --> 0:25:27.241
<v Speaker 2>the spring of nineteen ninety, one so this Is december

0:25:27.241 --> 0:25:30.041
<v Speaker 2>of nineteen ninety. One After sandra came to see, them

0:25:31.281 --> 0:25:33.801
<v Speaker 2>police found the woman Who robbie had sold the car.

0:25:33.881 --> 0:25:37.360
<v Speaker 2>To it wasn't, running just sitting out in her yard

0:25:37.441 --> 0:25:40.721
<v Speaker 2>where it had been sitting for. Months but police went

0:25:40.761 --> 0:25:43.321
<v Speaker 2>out and found the vehicle and did forensic testing on that.

0:25:43.361 --> 0:25:47.121
<v Speaker 2>Car they got a hair sample which they bagged as. Evidence,

0:25:48.321 --> 0:25:52.481
<v Speaker 2>Now robbie's private life was. Complicated he was married To,

0:25:52.561 --> 0:25:55.881
<v Speaker 2>sandra but he had been seeing another woman Named. Janetta

0:25:56.601 --> 0:26:00.041
<v Speaker 2>police Asked robbi during their questioning If christina could have

0:26:00.121 --> 0:26:03.801
<v Speaker 2>ever been inside his, car and apparently at one point

0:26:04.041 --> 0:26:07.281
<v Speaker 2>he said That christina and another child may have sat

0:26:07.281 --> 0:26:11.600
<v Speaker 2>in his car With. Janetta apparently her child went to

0:26:11.641 --> 0:26:15.521
<v Speaker 2>the same school As. Christina, anyway he said that he

0:26:15.641 --> 0:26:18.561
<v Speaker 2>and these, kids one of whom may have Been, christina

0:26:19.041 --> 0:26:21.601
<v Speaker 2>sat in his car in a nearby park With. Janetta

0:26:22.281 --> 0:26:25.401
<v Speaker 2>but then police talked To, janetta she said that wasn't.

0:26:25.441 --> 0:26:28.761
<v Speaker 2>True she Said christina was never in that car and

0:26:28.801 --> 0:26:32.601
<v Speaker 2>that they had never been in that. Park so Now

0:26:32.801 --> 0:26:36.441
<v Speaker 2>robbie's alibi seemed to be kind of falling. APART i

0:26:36.481 --> 0:26:39.201
<v Speaker 2>want to point, out, though that without access to the case,

0:26:39.201 --> 0:26:42.681
<v Speaker 2>file without recordings of what, happened we don't know what

0:26:42.881 --> 0:26:45.840
<v Speaker 2>happened Before robbie made those. Statements we don't know what

0:26:45.881 --> 0:26:48.041
<v Speaker 2>the police Told, robbie how long they had him in.

0:26:48.080 --> 0:26:52.440
<v Speaker 2>Custody were these statements coerced in any. Way i'm not

0:26:52.481 --> 0:26:55.120
<v Speaker 2>saying that they. Were i'm just saying, that given what

0:26:55.241 --> 0:26:58.080
<v Speaker 2>was going on In arkansas at that, time we need

0:26:58.121 --> 0:27:02.401
<v Speaker 2>to know for sure how that questioning went. Down growing,

0:27:02.481 --> 0:27:04.721
<v Speaker 2>UP i used to always think that if you hadn't

0:27:04.721 --> 0:27:06.920
<v Speaker 2>done anything, wrong that there was no way that you

0:27:06.921 --> 0:27:10.160
<v Speaker 2>would lie in a police interrogation. Room but after What

0:27:10.201 --> 0:27:12.600
<v Speaker 2>i've learned over the, YEARS i now no longer believe

0:27:12.641 --> 0:27:15.161
<v Speaker 2>THAT i want to know the context of what was being.

0:27:15.201 --> 0:27:20.361
<v Speaker 2>Said police Had sandra's statement About, robbie and they had

0:27:20.361 --> 0:27:24.681
<v Speaker 2>that hair sample From robbie's former. Vehicle, now forensic testing

0:27:24.761 --> 0:27:27.441
<v Speaker 2>was not nearly as advanced in nineteen ninety one as

0:27:27.441 --> 0:27:30.681
<v Speaker 2>it is now, obviously so the testing police could have

0:27:30.721 --> 0:27:32.840
<v Speaker 2>done on that hair at the time would have been pretty.

0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:37.241
<v Speaker 2>Limited without the advanced, testing the police had no physical,

0:27:37.281 --> 0:27:41.080
<v Speaker 2>evidence at least not. Yet but they were building a

0:27:41.121 --> 0:27:44.641
<v Speaker 2>case Against Robbie, tubbs and they Had Sandra tubbs is

0:27:44.681 --> 0:27:48.401
<v Speaker 2>their main. Witness but no jury would ever hear From

0:27:48.441 --> 0:27:52.561
<v Speaker 2>Sandra tubbs because On may, fourth nineteen ninety, three exactly

0:27:52.681 --> 0:27:57.681
<v Speaker 2>two years After Christina pipkin, Vanished Sandra tubbs was brutally.

0:27:57.761 --> 0:28:11.681
<v Speaker 2>Murdered the circumstances around the murder Of Sandra tubbs are,

0:28:11.721 --> 0:28:15.881
<v Speaker 2>bizarre to say the, least and they are. Controversial some

0:28:15.921 --> 0:28:19.001
<v Speaker 2>people to this day believe That Robbie tubbs had something

0:28:19.001 --> 0:28:21.041
<v Speaker 2>to do with. It they just think that timing is too.

0:28:21.080 --> 0:28:26.201
<v Speaker 2>Coincidental they wonder if he somehow masterminded the. Murder it

0:28:26.321 --> 0:28:30.721
<v Speaker 2>just seemed very strange that exactly two years After Christina pipkin's,

0:28:30.761 --> 0:28:34.840
<v Speaker 2>death That sandra would be found. Dead On may, fourth

0:28:34.961 --> 0:28:39.081
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety, Three Sandra tubbs was alone at home In, Moro.

0:28:39.321 --> 0:28:43.401
<v Speaker 2>Arkansas the school bus had come between five and seven

0:28:43.441 --> 0:28:47.440
<v Speaker 2>am that. Morning all Of sandra's children were already at.

0:28:47.441 --> 0:28:50.441
<v Speaker 2>School only her youngest, son who was sleeping on the

0:28:50.481 --> 0:28:52.721
<v Speaker 2>living room floor in front of THE, tv was home with.

0:28:52.801 --> 0:28:56.561
<v Speaker 2>Her sandra was doing some home. Decorating she had a

0:28:56.601 --> 0:28:59.121
<v Speaker 2>can of paint varnish open with a brush lying on

0:28:59.161 --> 0:29:00.601
<v Speaker 2>top of, it like she was in the middle of.

0:29:00.641 --> 0:29:04.961
<v Speaker 2>Painting robbie later told police that he woke up that,

0:29:05.041 --> 0:29:07.481
<v Speaker 2>morning he And sandra made some. Coffee they had a

0:29:07.481 --> 0:29:09.881
<v Speaker 2>totally normal conversation about what they were going to do that.

0:29:09.961 --> 0:29:13.601
<v Speaker 2>Day then he said he left the house by seven point.

0:29:13.601 --> 0:29:16.921
<v Speaker 2>Fifteen his, plan he, said was to go out and

0:29:16.961 --> 0:29:18.921
<v Speaker 2>pull in some, turtlenets get out on the water for

0:29:18.961 --> 0:29:21.561
<v Speaker 2>a little, bit then to head to the store in

0:29:21.641 --> 0:29:26.801
<v Speaker 2>town In. Morrow After robbie left the, house sometime after seven,

0:29:26.841 --> 0:29:31.161
<v Speaker 2>am two local teenagers Named Jerry Lee ray And Stephen

0:29:31.281 --> 0:29:35.161
<v Speaker 2>Chad kapliner came to the. Door now these teens were

0:29:35.201 --> 0:29:38.361
<v Speaker 2>apparently acquaintances Of robbie And sandra's, kids and rode the

0:29:38.361 --> 0:29:41.921
<v Speaker 2>bus with. Them the boys lived nearby and later told

0:29:42.001 --> 0:29:44.961
<v Speaker 2>police they had kind of a vague plan to run

0:29:45.001 --> 0:29:48.201
<v Speaker 2>away from. Home they had started the day, earlier but

0:29:48.281 --> 0:29:51.961
<v Speaker 2>hadn't made it very. Far chad And jerry had camped

0:29:51.961 --> 0:29:54.161
<v Speaker 2>out all night in a tent in the. Woods they

0:29:54.161 --> 0:29:56.961
<v Speaker 2>were carrying an orange bag with them containing their, pup,

0:29:57.001 --> 0:30:01.161
<v Speaker 2>tent a, flashlight a pair of, binoculars a maroon, jacket a,

0:30:01.201 --> 0:30:05.881
<v Speaker 2>compass a knife, sheath shotgun, shells some alka, seltzer and

0:30:05.961 --> 0:30:10.521
<v Speaker 2>a leather. Whip they needed, supplies and they seemed to

0:30:10.561 --> 0:30:12.721
<v Speaker 2>come up with this kind of half baked plan to

0:30:12.761 --> 0:30:14.841
<v Speaker 2>steal some stuff from houses.

0:30:17.201 --> 0:30:17.281
<v Speaker 3>That.

0:30:17.481 --> 0:30:21.161
<v Speaker 2>Morning they waited until after the school bus, left then

0:30:21.761 --> 0:30:25.961
<v Speaker 2>they Approached sandra's back. Door, now according to statements the

0:30:26.001 --> 0:30:28.681
<v Speaker 2>teens made to police That amy managed to get a hold,

0:30:28.721 --> 0:30:33.441
<v Speaker 2>of each of the guys had fairly similar versions of what,

0:30:33.561 --> 0:30:36.161
<v Speaker 2>happened except they kind of blamed each other for doing the.

0:30:36.161 --> 0:30:40.481
<v Speaker 2>Shooting chad claimed he was holding the shotgun and that

0:30:40.761 --> 0:30:43.401
<v Speaker 2>after they came up on the back, porch he pulled

0:30:43.441 --> 0:30:46.081
<v Speaker 2>the hand and threw the gun To Jerry Lee, ray

0:30:46.641 --> 0:30:49.121
<v Speaker 2>and after, that he, Said Jerry Lee ray started. Shooting

0:30:49.201 --> 0:30:52.881
<v Speaker 2>he had no idea what. Happened, again, basically each one

0:30:52.921 --> 0:30:55.441
<v Speaker 2>blamed the, other but looking at their police, statements in my,

0:30:55.521 --> 0:30:59.121
<v Speaker 2>Opinion Jerry Lee ray's story is much more believable and

0:30:59.161 --> 0:31:03.401
<v Speaker 2>has a lot more credible. Details jerry said that they

0:31:03.441 --> 0:31:06.001
<v Speaker 2>went to the. Door chad had the shotgun in his. Hand,

0:31:06.801 --> 0:31:09.321
<v Speaker 2>again their objective that morning was to steal some. Food

0:31:09.361 --> 0:31:11.881
<v Speaker 2>they thought no one was, home but when they went

0:31:11.961 --> 0:31:15.081
<v Speaker 2>up on the back, Porch sandra appeared at the. Door

0:31:15.561 --> 0:31:19.001
<v Speaker 2>she probably saw they were carrying a. Shotgun she shut

0:31:19.041 --> 0:31:22.041
<v Speaker 2>the door in their. Face at that, point a shot

0:31:22.161 --> 0:31:25.601
<v Speaker 2>was fired through the. Door police found drops of blood

0:31:25.681 --> 0:31:28.641
<v Speaker 2>inside the, home and they were able to recreate what

0:31:28.721 --> 0:31:33.440
<v Speaker 2>they believe. Happened, next one of the, teens Probably, chad

0:31:34.241 --> 0:31:36.241
<v Speaker 2>had the gun in his hand and fired that first.

0:31:36.281 --> 0:31:39.681
<v Speaker 2>Shot it went through the door and Hit sandra and wounded,

0:31:39.721 --> 0:31:42.921
<v Speaker 2>her but it wasn't. Fatal in that, moment it seemed

0:31:42.961 --> 0:31:47.001
<v Speaker 2>like everyone. Panicked chad And jerry Chased sandra through the.

0:31:47.001 --> 0:31:50.601
<v Speaker 2>House when police came to the, scene the rest of

0:31:50.601 --> 0:31:54.161
<v Speaker 2>the house looked basically. Untouched it looked like they chased

0:31:54.201 --> 0:31:56.601
<v Speaker 2>her straight through the back door and out the front.

0:31:56.601 --> 0:32:01.121
<v Speaker 2>Door at that, point it seemed Like sandra completely. Panicked

0:32:01.681 --> 0:32:03.921
<v Speaker 2>she left her young son sleeping on the living room.

0:32:03.961 --> 0:32:07.121
<v Speaker 2>Floor she was running for her. Life she raced out

0:32:07.121 --> 0:32:10.201
<v Speaker 2>that front. Door, now of, course it's impossible to know

0:32:10.401 --> 0:32:13.881
<v Speaker 2>exactly what she was thinking at that, Point But i'm

0:32:13.881 --> 0:32:16.801
<v Speaker 2>thinking she was probably trying to get to the neighbor's

0:32:16.801 --> 0:32:21.361
<v Speaker 2>house to get some, help or to attract, attention or

0:32:21.521 --> 0:32:24.601
<v Speaker 2>just her instinct is a, mother maybe she was just

0:32:24.681 --> 0:32:27.281
<v Speaker 2>trying to lure that danger away from her little. Son

0:32:28.481 --> 0:32:31.321
<v Speaker 2>Jerry Lee ray said in his statement that once they

0:32:31.401 --> 0:32:34.041
<v Speaker 2>got to the front, Yard chad was yelling At, sandra

0:32:34.081 --> 0:32:37.201
<v Speaker 2>but he couldn't understand what he was. Saying chad Shot

0:32:37.281 --> 0:32:40.921
<v Speaker 2>sandra in the. Back the shotgun blast Knocked sandra to

0:32:40.961 --> 0:32:44.201
<v Speaker 2>her knees and she fell. Forward her, glass which she

0:32:44.201 --> 0:32:48.401
<v Speaker 2>couldn't see, without fell off during the. Struggle police later

0:32:48.521 --> 0:32:51.401
<v Speaker 2>found two shotgun, holes which is the outer casing that

0:32:51.481 --> 0:32:54.521
<v Speaker 2>holds the, shells at the. Scene one was on the

0:32:54.561 --> 0:32:57.801
<v Speaker 2>back near the back porch, steps the other in the

0:32:57.801 --> 0:33:01.121
<v Speaker 2>front yard about thirty yards from Where sandra was lying.

0:33:01.201 --> 0:33:06.481
<v Speaker 2>Dead after the, Shooting jerry And chad ran to a nearby.

0:33:06.521 --> 0:33:09.921
<v Speaker 2>House they stole some food out of the, cabinet stole

0:33:10.001 --> 0:33:13.681
<v Speaker 2>Some easter candy and playing. Cards, also they stole a

0:33:13.721 --> 0:33:17.241
<v Speaker 2>gun during that time while they were at the neighbor's.

0:33:17.321 --> 0:33:20.201
<v Speaker 2>Place apparently they also took off their shoes and put

0:33:20.201 --> 0:33:24.321
<v Speaker 2>on some other. Ones these guys were not criminal. Masterminds

0:33:24.841 --> 0:33:28.041
<v Speaker 2>they left behind all kinds of, evidence including footprints and

0:33:28.161 --> 0:33:31.681
<v Speaker 2>the actual shoes they. Wore police pretty quickly were able

0:33:31.681 --> 0:33:34.801
<v Speaker 2>to bag those shoes. Up they also left their bag

0:33:35.361 --> 0:33:38.081
<v Speaker 2>with all of their supplies in it at the murder.

0:33:38.161 --> 0:33:40.801
<v Speaker 2>Scene they had to go back and grab. It they

0:33:40.841 --> 0:33:42.921
<v Speaker 2>also tried to steal a truck that was sitting out

0:33:42.921 --> 0:33:46.121
<v Speaker 2>in front of rob In sandra's, house but they couldn't

0:33:46.121 --> 0:33:48.881
<v Speaker 2>even do that because the vehicle wouldn't, start so they

0:33:48.961 --> 0:33:53.001
<v Speaker 2>hid in the. Woods after police showed up with, bloodhounds

0:33:53.601 --> 0:33:56.801
<v Speaker 2>they quickly found the two. Teens they also found the

0:33:56.841 --> 0:33:59.961
<v Speaker 2>shoes and the gun and all the other. Evidence they

0:34:00.041 --> 0:34:06.001
<v Speaker 2>Captured chad And, jerry and they quickly. Confessed there are

0:34:06.041 --> 0:34:09.321
<v Speaker 2>a lot of tragic things About Sandra tubbs's, murder but

0:34:09.440 --> 0:34:11.881
<v Speaker 2>one of the, worst in my, opinion was that the

0:34:11.921 --> 0:34:16.440
<v Speaker 2>whole murder was literally for. Nothing they Killed, sandra five,

0:34:16.601 --> 0:34:20.120
<v Speaker 2>children don't have a, Mother jerry And chad went to

0:34:20.201 --> 0:34:25.160
<v Speaker 2>jail for their entire young, lives and for. Nothing all

0:34:25.201 --> 0:34:28.881
<v Speaker 2>they got was some easter. Candy probably because of, that

0:34:29.641 --> 0:34:32.281
<v Speaker 2>the rumor mill. Started there must have been more to.

0:34:32.321 --> 0:34:34.080
<v Speaker 2>It could the kids have been put up to that

0:34:34.201 --> 0:34:37.801
<v Speaker 2>robbery by someone, else Maybe robbie, senior or by someone,

0:34:37.841 --> 0:34:41.681
<v Speaker 2>younger maybe someone in the, family someone they, knew someone

0:34:41.681 --> 0:34:44.440
<v Speaker 2>else who rode the bus with those. Kids, Again i'm

0:34:44.440 --> 0:34:47.440
<v Speaker 2>not accusing anyone of. Anything i'm just trying to understand

0:34:47.440 --> 0:34:50.881
<v Speaker 2>the family connections and how this all fits, together because

0:34:51.401 --> 0:34:55.241
<v Speaker 2>on the, Surface amy pointed out that it does seem

0:34:55.281 --> 0:34:57.361
<v Speaker 2>Like robbie And sander's house would be kind of a

0:34:57.361 --> 0:34:59.601
<v Speaker 2>weird one to target if you wanted to steal. Anything

0:35:00.401 --> 0:35:02.560
<v Speaker 2>robbie was a turtle. Hunter it's not like he had

0:35:02.601 --> 0:35:04.201
<v Speaker 2>anything of any real value in.

0:35:04.281 --> 0:35:10.040
<v Speaker 3>There why they thought that a house OF i don't

0:35:10.041 --> 0:35:11.841
<v Speaker 3>know how many KIDS i had at the, time five or,

0:35:11.881 --> 0:35:15.761
<v Speaker 3>six with the man who made his living off of

0:35:16.361 --> 0:35:20.721
<v Speaker 3>shell diving and turtle, TURTLING i guess would be the

0:35:20.761 --> 0:35:25.201
<v Speaker 3>house to ROB i don't. Know AND i feel like

0:35:26.081 --> 0:35:27.921
<v Speaker 3>IF i would have been a sixteen year old kid

0:35:27.960 --> 0:35:33.161
<v Speaker 3>looking at you, know Because arkansas was trying kids at

0:35:33.161 --> 0:35:36.601
<v Speaker 3>that time for as adults and you, know seeking the

0:35:36.641 --> 0:35:40.761
<v Speaker 3>nest salty FOR i feel like they would have sang

0:35:40.881 --> 0:35:45.440
<v Speaker 3>like a canary if they had anything on. HIM i

0:35:45.481 --> 0:35:48.921
<v Speaker 3>just don't feel like they were like harden thugs that were,

0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:55.201
<v Speaker 3>gonna you, know go away for. Him but, no her family,

0:35:55.281 --> 0:35:58.601
<v Speaker 3>says her family for a long time just swore he was,

0:35:58.641 --> 0:36:01.281
<v Speaker 3>involved and so they didn't have much to do With,

0:36:01.801 --> 0:36:06.401
<v Speaker 3>robbie My robbie growing, up or any of the, kids

0:36:06.440 --> 0:36:09.600
<v Speaker 3>because you, know they all thought as daddy killed his

0:36:09.641 --> 0:36:13.161
<v Speaker 3>mom or had something to do with. It it's been

0:36:13.281 --> 0:36:17.121
<v Speaker 3>so hard for your. Husband, yeah he's had a real tough.

0:36:17.201 --> 0:36:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Life Robbie tubbs gave a statement to police and he

0:36:23.041 --> 0:36:26.480
<v Speaker 2>was completely cleared of any involvement in the. SHOOTING i

0:36:26.521 --> 0:36:28.881
<v Speaker 2>did read his, statement AND i did find just a

0:36:28.881 --> 0:36:31.121
<v Speaker 2>couple of THINGS i wanted to flag up BECAUSE i

0:36:31.161 --> 0:36:34.561
<v Speaker 2>thought they were a little bit, inconsistent mostly related to.

0:36:34.681 --> 0:36:38.201
<v Speaker 2>Timing robbie said in his statement to police that he

0:36:38.321 --> 0:36:41.040
<v Speaker 2>left the house at around seven. Fifteen he said he

0:36:41.121 --> 0:36:44.081
<v Speaker 2>went straight to a nearby body of, water out on

0:36:44.121 --> 0:36:46.841
<v Speaker 2>the water for around thirty five minutes or. So then

0:36:46.881 --> 0:36:49.681
<v Speaker 2>he pulled his nets in and saw a neighbor of

0:36:49.721 --> 0:36:54.480
<v Speaker 2>his he knew Named. Danny robbie said, quote he was

0:36:54.481 --> 0:36:56.401
<v Speaker 2>fixing to go out and get some trout, lines AND

0:36:56.440 --> 0:36:58.160
<v Speaker 2>i asked him what time it was SO i would

0:36:58.161 --> 0:36:59.560
<v Speaker 2>know if he was going to be free to show

0:36:59.641 --> 0:37:02.561
<v Speaker 2>me some places to put my nets. Out he said

0:37:02.641 --> 0:37:05.241
<v Speaker 2>it's eight thirty as he was walking. OFF i have

0:37:05.321 --> 0:37:07.881
<v Speaker 2>a bad habit of asking people what time it. Is end.

0:37:07.921 --> 0:37:11.081
<v Speaker 2>Quote this is a little bit of a weird, comment

0:37:11.561 --> 0:37:13.921
<v Speaker 2>but then, AGAIN i don't. Know it might have made

0:37:13.960 --> 0:37:16.801
<v Speaker 2>sense in that. Context remember this was back in the early.

0:37:16.881 --> 0:37:20.040
<v Speaker 2>Nineties this is a time before cell. Phones people did

0:37:20.161 --> 0:37:22.881
<v Speaker 2>ask other people if they noticed that person was wearing

0:37:22.921 --> 0:37:25.801
<v Speaker 2>watches what time it. Was it was a. Thing we

0:37:25.960 --> 0:37:28.881
<v Speaker 2>always have to be open minded and consider every. Possibility

0:37:29.761 --> 0:37:33.641
<v Speaker 2>but if that timeline's, correct that puts us at around

0:37:33.681 --> 0:37:36.960
<v Speaker 2>eight thirty or eight thirty, Five robbie. Said after that,

0:37:37.081 --> 0:37:40.081
<v Speaker 2>conversation he left his Friend. Danny he went back to

0:37:40.121 --> 0:37:42.960
<v Speaker 2>his house and was messing around with the turtlenets when

0:37:43.001 --> 0:37:45.441
<v Speaker 2>he noticed that the dogs were freaking out and. Barking

0:37:46.041 --> 0:37:47.921
<v Speaker 2>he went to the house through the back. Door he

0:37:47.960 --> 0:37:50.361
<v Speaker 2>saw the paint, Can he saw his son sleeping on the.

0:37:50.361 --> 0:37:53.681
<v Speaker 2>Floor then he, said he went out the front he

0:37:53.721 --> 0:37:57.200
<v Speaker 2>was looking For. Sandra that's when he Saw sandra lying.

0:37:57.241 --> 0:37:58.081
<v Speaker 3>There he.

0:37:58.121 --> 0:38:00.560
<v Speaker 2>Said he turned her over just enough to realize there

0:38:00.601 --> 0:38:03.120
<v Speaker 2>was a hole in her. Chest then he went back

0:38:03.161 --> 0:38:05.721
<v Speaker 2>in the, house saw that his son was, there checked on,

0:38:05.801 --> 0:38:10.120
<v Speaker 2>him and then ran to the. Neighbors robbie said after

0:38:10.161 --> 0:38:13.440
<v Speaker 2>that he went To danny's, house Saw danny's, wife and

0:38:13.440 --> 0:38:17.480
<v Speaker 2>That danny's wife called nine one. One, Then robbie said

0:38:17.521 --> 0:38:19.321
<v Speaker 2>he went back home and by the time he got,

0:38:19.321 --> 0:38:22.801
<v Speaker 2>There danny was arriving there. Too they both went out

0:38:22.960 --> 0:38:26.921
<v Speaker 2>and looked At sandra's. Body, Remember robbie had said he

0:38:27.001 --> 0:38:29.161
<v Speaker 2>made a point of asking his friend what time it

0:38:29.361 --> 0:38:31.721
<v Speaker 2>was right after he left his house and went down

0:38:31.761 --> 0:38:34.841
<v Speaker 2>to deal with The. Turtlenets he said That danny had

0:38:34.841 --> 0:38:37.761
<v Speaker 2>said it was eight thirty and that supposedly happened before

0:38:37.881 --> 0:38:40.081
<v Speaker 2>he went back to the house and Found sandra's. Body

0:38:41.561 --> 0:38:44.881
<v Speaker 2>danny's story to police was. Similar he told, police, yes

0:38:44.921 --> 0:38:47.841
<v Speaker 2>he had Seen robbie that, morning but he said the

0:38:47.841 --> 0:38:52.000
<v Speaker 2>conversation about time happened after all. This, so after they

0:38:52.041 --> 0:38:56.521
<v Speaker 2>had their initial, Conversation robbie left to go. Home danny

0:38:56.761 --> 0:38:58.921
<v Speaker 2>got home and found out that his wife had called

0:38:58.960 --> 0:39:02.121
<v Speaker 2>nine one. One he rushes over To robbie And sandra's

0:39:02.121 --> 0:39:05.281
<v Speaker 2>house finds the. Body after all, that he said they

0:39:05.281 --> 0:39:07.801
<v Speaker 2>had a conversation about, time and at that time he

0:39:07.801 --> 0:39:10.921
<v Speaker 2>said it was eight thirty. Five, again we don't have a.

0:39:10.960 --> 0:39:13.961
<v Speaker 2>Recording this could have been a misunderstanding by a police.

0:39:13.960 --> 0:39:17.721
<v Speaker 2>OFFICER i don't, know but Obviously i'm super sensitive to

0:39:17.761 --> 0:39:22.641
<v Speaker 2>anything involving the timeline and police also talked to someone,

0:39:22.681 --> 0:39:26.120
<v Speaker 2>else the stepfather of one of the murder. Suspects now

0:39:26.121 --> 0:39:29.000
<v Speaker 2>their family lived, nearby and the stepfather said he heard

0:39:29.041 --> 0:39:33.121
<v Speaker 2>a single shot, earlier at around seven thirty. Am of,

0:39:33.161 --> 0:39:35.520
<v Speaker 2>course the part of my brain that's always thinking about

0:39:35.561 --> 0:39:38.200
<v Speaker 2>albis and how people try to build alibis to fill

0:39:38.201 --> 0:39:41.521
<v Speaker 2>in timeline to their. Advantage i'm thinking if the shooting

0:39:41.601 --> 0:39:45.761
<v Speaker 2>started closer to the time the bus left that, morning

0:39:47.121 --> 0:39:49.921
<v Speaker 2>that could explain Why robbie might have wanted to make

0:39:49.960 --> 0:39:52.321
<v Speaker 2>it seem like he was definitely out of the house

0:39:52.361 --> 0:39:53.801
<v Speaker 2>and had been out of the house for a while

0:39:53.801 --> 0:39:57.921
<v Speaker 2>when that went. Down either, way, though the timeline does

0:39:57.960 --> 0:40:01.440
<v Speaker 2>seem to check out without minor. Inconsistency he left home

0:40:01.521 --> 0:40:04.281
<v Speaker 2>according to, him and according to the, suspects he was

0:40:04.361 --> 0:40:06.881
<v Speaker 2>gone by the time they got. There it's also a

0:40:06.881 --> 0:40:09.121
<v Speaker 2>little weird to me that When robbie went back to

0:40:09.161 --> 0:40:11.121
<v Speaker 2>the house and saw his wife lying there with a

0:40:11.161 --> 0:40:13.480
<v Speaker 2>hole in her, chest he checked to see if his

0:40:13.521 --> 0:40:15.841
<v Speaker 2>son was. There saw him, sleeping and then left his

0:40:15.881 --> 0:40:18.601
<v Speaker 2>son behind to go to the neighbor's, house because how

0:40:18.601 --> 0:40:21.201
<v Speaker 2>would he know that the killer wasn't still, there, which

0:40:21.241 --> 0:40:23.960
<v Speaker 2>as it turned, out they were they were hanging out

0:40:24.041 --> 0:40:27.641
<v Speaker 2>in those woods. Still but also that could have just been.

0:40:27.681 --> 0:40:31.520
<v Speaker 2>Shocked robbie said he And sandra had not had any

0:40:31.521 --> 0:40:33.601
<v Speaker 2>problems in their. Marriage they had been getting along great

0:40:33.641 --> 0:40:35.841
<v Speaker 2>for the last year or. So they had had a

0:40:35.881 --> 0:40:39.561
<v Speaker 2>super happy. Marriage, now they did go through good, times

0:40:39.801 --> 0:40:42.841
<v Speaker 2>And i'm sure they were happy at, times but this

0:40:42.960 --> 0:40:47.000
<v Speaker 2>does also tredict what we heard About robbie, earlier that

0:40:47.081 --> 0:40:50.561
<v Speaker 2>he had abused his wife in the. End, Though amy

0:40:50.641 --> 0:40:53.960
<v Speaker 2>pointed out something That i've, considered which is that these

0:40:54.001 --> 0:40:57.881
<v Speaker 2>teens were not trained, assassins and they were really scared

0:40:57.921 --> 0:41:01.361
<v Speaker 2>when they talked to. Police so if someone else had

0:41:01.440 --> 0:41:04.520
<v Speaker 2>influenced them to do this, killing it seems like they

0:41:04.561 --> 0:41:07.521
<v Speaker 2>would have had no hesitation in turning On Robbie tubbs

0:41:07.641 --> 0:41:10.721
<v Speaker 2>if he in fact masterminded this, shooting but they. DIDN'T

0:41:11.521 --> 0:41:13.921
<v Speaker 2>i do want to talk to these, guys, though because

0:41:14.401 --> 0:41:18.680
<v Speaker 2>On Chad kaplaner's, statement the officer who interviewed him did

0:41:18.721 --> 0:41:22.480
<v Speaker 2>not record the. Conversation, instead he just typed up and

0:41:22.521 --> 0:41:25.960
<v Speaker 2>paraphrased What chad had. Said he noted That chad was

0:41:26.041 --> 0:41:28.881
<v Speaker 2>handcuffed and unable to sign the consent, form saying he

0:41:28.921 --> 0:41:33.241
<v Speaker 2>was aware of his. Rights this to me IS i

0:41:33.281 --> 0:41:35.401
<v Speaker 2>don't want to say, shady but not good. Practice and

0:41:35.440 --> 0:41:37.361
<v Speaker 2>it happened in way too many cases back in the.

0:41:37.401 --> 0:41:40.401
<v Speaker 2>Day we have no idea how long the interview went,

0:41:40.440 --> 0:41:43.001
<v Speaker 2>on if they offered him a. Break what the officer

0:41:43.081 --> 0:41:45.480
<v Speaker 2>said to these young, men that's a big problem for.

0:41:45.561 --> 0:41:48.801
<v Speaker 2>Me in the, End Jerry Lee ray was sentenced to

0:41:48.841 --> 0:41:53.721
<v Speaker 2>twenty years in, Prison Chad kaplaner got sixteen. Years after

0:41:53.761 --> 0:41:57.000
<v Speaker 2>serving their, time they were released and as far AS i,

0:41:57.081 --> 0:42:01.081
<v Speaker 2>know they are free men. Today, meanwhile The Christina pipkin

0:42:01.201 --> 0:42:06.321
<v Speaker 2>case went, cold especially After sanders. Murder police Suspected Robbie,

0:42:06.321 --> 0:42:10.121
<v Speaker 2>tubbs but there was no physical evidence against. Him but

0:42:10.440 --> 0:42:15.001
<v Speaker 2>by nineteen ninety nine technology for testing physical evidence had advanced.

0:42:15.001 --> 0:42:19.401
<v Speaker 2>Considerably police still had that hair From robbie's former car

0:42:19.641 --> 0:42:24.161
<v Speaker 2>THAN Amc. Eagle they sent it for further forensic testing

0:42:24.681 --> 0:42:27.481
<v Speaker 2>and they announced they had a match that the hair

0:42:27.521 --> 0:42:31.161
<v Speaker 2>that was found Inside Robbie tubb's abandoned car was a

0:42:31.241 --> 0:42:40.881
<v Speaker 2>match To Christina. Pipkin in nineteen ninety, Nine Robbie Dale

0:42:40.881 --> 0:42:45.281
<v Speaker 2>tubbs was arrested in charge With Christina pipkins. Murder prosecutors

0:42:45.321 --> 0:42:49.281
<v Speaker 2>said they were seeking the death. Penalty the trial started

0:42:49.321 --> 0:42:52.561
<v Speaker 2>out in a pretty shocking, manner and it just turned

0:42:52.561 --> 0:42:57.561
<v Speaker 2>into one shocking twist after. Another, first the judge ruled

0:42:57.601 --> 0:43:01.041
<v Speaker 2>That sandra's statement she had made to police About robbie

0:43:01.081 --> 0:43:03.841
<v Speaker 2>allegedly making statements to her about what happened To Christina.

0:43:03.841 --> 0:43:07.641
<v Speaker 2>Pipkin the judge ruled that those were, inadmissible and Obviously

0:43:08.041 --> 0:43:13.080
<v Speaker 2>sandra was, dead so even, posthumously the jury would never

0:43:13.121 --> 0:43:17.921
<v Speaker 2>hear From Sandra. Tubbs the, Prosecutor Fletcher long, said, Quote,

0:43:18.440 --> 0:43:20.801
<v Speaker 2>man we'd be walking and talking if she was alive.

0:43:20.841 --> 0:43:23.520
<v Speaker 2>Today if we had, that we'd knock those jurors. Dead

0:43:23.841 --> 0:43:27.080
<v Speaker 2>but there's no sense crying over spilt milt end. Quote

0:43:27.281 --> 0:43:29.361
<v Speaker 2>just a little side. Note i've noticed that a lot

0:43:29.440 --> 0:43:34.201
<v Speaker 2>of these colloquial, prosecutors especially In, arkansas have some very colorful.

0:43:34.241 --> 0:43:37.480
<v Speaker 2>Comments BUT i don't know IF i agree with his,

0:43:37.561 --> 0:43:41.000
<v Speaker 2>comment because there were some problems With sandra's STATEMENT i

0:43:41.081 --> 0:43:44.481
<v Speaker 2>found out WHEN i was Investigating Rebecca gould's, case and many. Others,

0:43:45.001 --> 0:43:47.801
<v Speaker 2>unfortunately there are a lot of women whose husbands are

0:43:47.881 --> 0:43:51.721
<v Speaker 2>abusive and, violent a lot of women who suspect that

0:43:51.841 --> 0:43:56.520
<v Speaker 2>their partner might have been responsible for a. Murder it's

0:43:56.521 --> 0:43:59.921
<v Speaker 2>actually shocking how many violent people are out, there and

0:43:59.960 --> 0:44:03.441
<v Speaker 2>how many, people men and, women are victims of intimate partner.

0:44:03.561 --> 0:44:07.361
<v Speaker 2>VIOLENCE i would be wary of the, statement not BECAUSE

0:44:07.361 --> 0:44:09.841
<v Speaker 2>i don't believe. IT i believe That sandra did hear

0:44:09.960 --> 0:44:12.001
<v Speaker 2>him say, that AND i believe she did tell her friend,

0:44:12.001 --> 0:44:14.761
<v Speaker 2>That BUT i would be wary of the statement because

0:44:15.440 --> 0:44:19.201
<v Speaker 2>without seeing exactly what he told her and what the context,

0:44:19.321 --> 0:44:22.721
<v Speaker 2>was there's nothing specific to the crime in that. Statement

0:44:22.881 --> 0:44:26.321
<v Speaker 2>just saying That christina was drowned in a rice stitch

0:44:26.481 --> 0:44:30.121
<v Speaker 2>is not, enough in my, opinion to charge someone with capital. Murder,

0:44:30.601 --> 0:44:35.081
<v Speaker 2>now the fact That robbie Tied sandra up and threatened

0:44:35.081 --> 0:44:38.601
<v Speaker 2>her would seem to make this much more compelling and potentially.

0:44:38.681 --> 0:44:42.121
<v Speaker 2>Dangerous but, again we need to know more about what

0:44:42.201 --> 0:44:45.161
<v Speaker 2>the actual conversation was Between robbie And. Sander we need

0:44:45.161 --> 0:44:48.441
<v Speaker 2>to know what she told the. Police Sandra tubbs case

0:44:48.481 --> 0:44:52.520
<v Speaker 2>file now should be open because the murder was. Prosecuted

0:44:53.161 --> 0:44:55.480
<v Speaker 2>i've Done foyer request for it AND i will keep you.

0:44:55.561 --> 0:45:00.441
<v Speaker 2>Posted but even Without Sandra tubbs's, statement the, Prosecutor Fletcher

0:45:00.481 --> 0:45:03.321
<v Speaker 2>long felt pretty confident because he had this forensic. Evidence

0:45:03.721 --> 0:45:06.321
<v Speaker 2>he had the hair From robbie's former vehicle that was

0:45:06.361 --> 0:45:09.401
<v Speaker 2>a match To Christina pipkins's, hair which brings me to

0:45:09.440 --> 0:45:14.881
<v Speaker 2>the next shocking. Twist Robbie tubb's family got him an,

0:45:14.921 --> 0:45:18.601
<v Speaker 2>attorney and according To, amy they got him an expensive.

0:45:18.641 --> 0:45:21.480
<v Speaker 2>Attorney they took out a second mortgage so that they

0:45:21.481 --> 0:45:25.161
<v Speaker 2>could pay for the defense Attorney Martin, lilly And Martin

0:45:25.201 --> 0:45:28.801
<v Speaker 2>lilly had questions about that forensic. Testing what he said

0:45:28.801 --> 0:45:30.801
<v Speaker 2>in court was he believed there had been a mix

0:45:30.881 --> 0:45:34.201
<v Speaker 2>up at the. Lab he believed that the scientist had

0:45:34.241 --> 0:45:38.481
<v Speaker 2>accidentally compared two samples that were taken From christina's body

0:45:38.601 --> 0:45:42.520
<v Speaker 2>to each other and not to the hair found in the.

0:45:42.561 --> 0:45:48.201
<v Speaker 2>Car Martin lily put THE fbi Investigator John, hazen who

0:45:48.241 --> 0:45:50.921
<v Speaker 2>was in charge of shipping the evidence from The arkansas

0:45:50.921 --> 0:45:53.881
<v Speaker 2>Crime lab to THE fbi lab In, quantico on the,

0:45:53.881 --> 0:45:57.841
<v Speaker 2>stand and to cut a long story, short it's pretty,

0:45:57.881 --> 0:46:00.601
<v Speaker 2>technical but it appears there was a difference in labeling

0:46:00.641 --> 0:46:02.960
<v Speaker 2>between the state crime lab and THE fbi lab and

0:46:03.001 --> 0:46:07.641
<v Speaker 2>that's where the problem. Began THE fbi lab In quantico

0:46:07.841 --> 0:46:10.761
<v Speaker 2>labeled the hair differently than The Arkansas state Crime. Lab

0:46:11.721 --> 0:46:14.441
<v Speaker 2>John hazen admitted that there might have been a. MISTAKE

0:46:17.601 --> 0:46:20.081
<v Speaker 2>i have such a hard time believing that's even. Possible

0:46:20.121 --> 0:46:23.520
<v Speaker 2>how could you compare two identical hairs to each other

0:46:23.641 --> 0:46:26.801
<v Speaker 2>and not realize they came from the same. Person even back,

0:46:26.841 --> 0:46:31.921
<v Speaker 2>Then Fletcher long said that there might be a difference in,

0:46:32.001 --> 0:46:35.721
<v Speaker 2>labeling but that it was not a fundamental. Mistake Martin lily.

0:46:35.881 --> 0:46:39.361
<v Speaker 2>Disagreed he insisted the two hairs that were sent to

0:46:39.361 --> 0:46:42.721
<v Speaker 2>the crime lab were not one From Robbie tubb's car

0:46:42.761 --> 0:46:45.960
<v Speaker 2>and one from Christ Sina pipkins's. Body he said they

0:46:46.001 --> 0:46:49.801
<v Speaker 2>accidentally sent two samples From christina's, body which of course

0:46:50.041 --> 0:46:52.201
<v Speaker 2>were a match because they came off the same. Person

0:46:53.801 --> 0:46:58.401
<v Speaker 2>lily said in, court, quote it'll blow this case wide,

0:46:58.440 --> 0:47:02.081
<v Speaker 2>open end. Quote and it. Did it all boiled down

0:47:02.161 --> 0:47:05.321
<v Speaker 2>to that. Hair that strand of hair was going to

0:47:05.401 --> 0:47:09.761
<v Speaker 2>decide the entire. Case in the, End Fletcher long admitted

0:47:09.801 --> 0:47:12.801
<v Speaker 2>there had been a fundamental mistake made and that the

0:47:12.841 --> 0:47:15.881
<v Speaker 2>two hairs taken From Christina pipkins's body were compared with

0:47:15.960 --> 0:47:18.361
<v Speaker 2>each other and not with the hair From Robbie tubbs's.

0:47:18.440 --> 0:47:22.241
<v Speaker 2>Car so what happened to the hair From Robbie tubbs's, Car,

0:47:22.401 --> 0:47:25.801
<v Speaker 2>well it had not been. Tested it was still sealed

0:47:25.921 --> 0:47:30.040
<v Speaker 2>sitting in an evidence bag at the crime. Lab this

0:47:30.361 --> 0:47:33.121
<v Speaker 2>was a shock in the. Courtroom the judge ordered to

0:47:33.201 --> 0:47:36.040
<v Speaker 2>pause in the, case and the judge Gave Fletcher long

0:47:36.121 --> 0:47:39.600
<v Speaker 2>and the prosecutors two months to get the testing done

0:47:39.641 --> 0:47:43.681
<v Speaker 2>on the correct. Hair but when they sent the hair

0:47:43.801 --> 0:47:46.480
<v Speaker 2>that had been found In robbie's car to THE fbi crime,

0:47:46.601 --> 0:47:49.160
<v Speaker 2>lab THE fbi came back with bad. News they said

0:47:49.161 --> 0:47:51.401
<v Speaker 2>there just was not enough genetic material on it to

0:47:51.440 --> 0:47:56.881
<v Speaker 2>do the, testing so the prosecutors had. Nothing Robbie tubbs

0:47:56.960 --> 0:48:01.121
<v Speaker 2>was set. Free this case was no lely, prossed meaning

0:48:01.161 --> 0:48:04.881
<v Speaker 2>that they dropped the charges Against Robbie tubbs because of insufficient.

0:48:04.921 --> 0:48:09.281
<v Speaker 2>Evidence but at least according to my, understanding if new

0:48:09.321 --> 0:48:11.440
<v Speaker 2>evidence ever came to, light he could be.

0:48:11.521 --> 0:48:16.361
<v Speaker 4>RETRIED i Think arkansas in general is a very and

0:48:16.440 --> 0:48:18.560
<v Speaker 4>maybe the Entire United states is very.

0:48:18.561 --> 0:48:22.121
<v Speaker 3>Corrupt i'm thankful That i've never been.

0:48:22.201 --> 0:48:27.520
<v Speaker 4>Arrested and That i'm not a poor, person BUT i,

0:48:27.521 --> 0:48:31.241
<v Speaker 4>MEAN i COULDN'T i couldn't afford a high dollar defense.

0:48:31.281 --> 0:48:35.761
<v Speaker 4>Attorney the only reason he was. ABLE i firmly believe

0:48:35.761 --> 0:48:38.040
<v Speaker 4>the only reason he's not on death row right now

0:48:38.881 --> 0:48:42.041
<v Speaker 4>is because his mom and dad put a second mortgage

0:48:42.041 --> 0:48:46.680
<v Speaker 4>on their home and that, lawyer because he was dirt

0:48:46.721 --> 0:48:50.960
<v Speaker 4>for you, know average maybe below, average white. GUY i

0:48:51.001 --> 0:48:54.160
<v Speaker 4>think they would have real roaded him and never even

0:48:54.201 --> 0:48:54.561
<v Speaker 4>seen it.

0:48:54.601 --> 0:49:00.921
<v Speaker 2>Coming after all, That Robbie tubbs eventually left the. Area

0:49:01.721 --> 0:49:05.000
<v Speaker 2>he ended up In, missouri and in twenty thirteen he

0:49:05.041 --> 0:49:08.600
<v Speaker 2>made headlines. Again The Tulsa world reported he was part

0:49:08.641 --> 0:49:11.841
<v Speaker 2>of a crime ring that was illegally trafficking paddlefish. Eggs

0:49:12.841 --> 0:49:15.960
<v Speaker 2>The Tulsa world reported That robbie seemed surprised when he

0:49:16.001 --> 0:49:19.480
<v Speaker 2>got charged with this federal crime Because robbie apparently thought

0:49:19.481 --> 0:49:22.281
<v Speaker 2>he would just get a. Ticket according to THE Us

0:49:22.361 --> 0:49:26.601
<v Speaker 2>Attorney's office In, Tulsa robbie pleaded. Guilty he was sentenced

0:49:26.601 --> 0:49:28.561
<v Speaker 2>to six months in, prison and after that he was.

0:49:28.641 --> 0:49:32.681
<v Speaker 2>Released amy AND i have both filed multiple freedom of information,

0:49:32.721 --> 0:49:36.040
<v Speaker 2>requests but it's becoming clear that a lot of the

0:49:36.081 --> 0:49:39.361
<v Speaker 2>answers to this case are In. Arkansas we need to

0:49:39.401 --> 0:49:42.480
<v Speaker 2>answer several. Questions first of, all we need to know

0:49:42.561 --> 0:49:45.881
<v Speaker 2>exactly How Christina pipkin would have had to walk to

0:49:45.881 --> 0:49:49.000
<v Speaker 2>get to that, ditch and was it plausible for her

0:49:49.001 --> 0:49:51.520
<v Speaker 2>to walk that distance on her. Own in addition to

0:49:51.561 --> 0:49:54.520
<v Speaker 2>figuring out her exact, route we need to talk to

0:49:54.561 --> 0:49:57.120
<v Speaker 2>people who were in the neighborhood at the. Time we're

0:49:57.161 --> 0:49:59.601
<v Speaker 2>going to investigate a couple of other people of interest

0:49:59.921 --> 0:50:03.921
<v Speaker 2>who were questioned but apparently never. CHARGED i would also

0:50:04.041 --> 0:50:07.201
<v Speaker 2>really like to talk To Robbie. TUBBS i have no

0:50:07.321 --> 0:50:09.881
<v Speaker 2>idea if he'll talk to. Me amy tells me he

0:50:09.921 --> 0:50:11.960
<v Speaker 2>lives out in the middle of. NOWHERE i Guess i'm

0:50:12.001 --> 0:50:15.681
<v Speaker 2>going to find. Out this case terrified me and kept

0:50:15.721 --> 0:50:18.520
<v Speaker 2>me up at night for a couple of. Reasons first of,

0:50:18.561 --> 0:50:22.201
<v Speaker 2>all it's horrifying that someone could be almost sentenced to

0:50:22.281 --> 0:50:25.721
<v Speaker 2>death based on such a little, evidence evidence, that as

0:50:25.721 --> 0:50:29.921
<v Speaker 2>it turns, out wasn't even. Real it was literally one huge, mistake,

0:50:30.081 --> 0:50:34.000
<v Speaker 2>and As amy pointed, out one that probably never would

0:50:34.001 --> 0:50:36.921
<v Speaker 2>have been discovered if the defendant had not been able

0:50:36.960 --> 0:50:40.801
<v Speaker 2>to afford a pricey. Lawyer so how many other cases

0:50:40.801 --> 0:50:44.321
<v Speaker 2>out there have potentially the wrong people behind bars based

0:50:44.361 --> 0:50:49.681
<v Speaker 2>on such catastrophic? Errors and, also in these cases where

0:50:49.721 --> 0:50:52.361
<v Speaker 2>no one is ever successfully prosecuted or where the wrong

0:50:52.440 --> 0:50:56.161
<v Speaker 2>person is potentially in. Prison how many other killers are

0:50:56.161 --> 0:50:59.560
<v Speaker 2>out there walking. Free we're going to try to dive

0:50:59.601 --> 0:51:03.681
<v Speaker 2>into the other mysterious Deaths Guardina Cross jones And Geneva.

0:51:03.721 --> 0:51:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Smith we're going to try to see if we can

0:51:06.041 --> 0:51:09.401
<v Speaker 2>get any answers about what happened to those children and

0:51:09.481 --> 0:51:11.841
<v Speaker 2>to see if there is a child killer still out

0:51:11.841 --> 0:51:17.241
<v Speaker 2>there Stalking East. Arkansas so once, Again i'm on my

0:51:17.281 --> 0:51:23.001
<v Speaker 2>way To. Arkansas I'm Catherine. Townsend this Is Helen Gone Murder.

0:51:23.041 --> 0:51:30.081
<v Speaker 2>Line Helen Gone Murder line is a production Of school

0:51:30.081 --> 0:51:33.121
<v Speaker 2>Of humans And iHeart. Podcasts it's written and narrated by

0:51:33.201 --> 0:51:37.241
<v Speaker 2>Me Catherine townsend and produced By Gabby. Watts music contributed

0:51:37.241 --> 0:51:41.281
<v Speaker 2>By Ben, Sale executive producers Of Virginia, Prescott Brandon, barr

0:51:41.281 --> 0:51:44.281
<v Speaker 2>And Elsie. Crowley if you have a case you'd like

0:51:44.361 --> 0:51:46.480
<v Speaker 2>me and my team to look, into you can reach

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