WEBVTT - Forensics

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<v Speaker 1>It's the evening of Friday, November twenty second, nineteen sixty three.

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<v Speaker 1>Earlier that day in Dallas, President Kennedy had been shot.

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<v Speaker 1>After the doctors at Parkland Hospital feverishly tried to save

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<v Speaker 1>his life. At approximately one pm, he was officially pronounced dead.

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<v Speaker 1>The president's body was then loaded onto Air Force one,

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<v Speaker 1>flown to Washington, and taken to Bethesda Naval Medical Center,

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<v Speaker 1>where a team of pathologists began not just the most

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<v Speaker 1>important autopsy of their careers, but the most important autopsy

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<v Speaker 1>in American history. Thirty six hours later, pathologists doctor j

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<v Speaker 1>Thornton Boswell and doctor James Humes concluded their work. Humes

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<v Speaker 1>finished the autopsy report at home. Now he fully understands

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<v Speaker 1>the importance of this report. It'll be a central piece

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<v Speaker 1>of the official record that describes how the president was killed.

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<v Speaker 1>It will be part of history, and it has to

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<v Speaker 1>be precise. But here's what he tells the Warrant Commission

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<v Speaker 1>the following year. Now, Sola, Dad, could you read this.

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<v Speaker 1>It's doctor Humes describing what he did that evening.

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor Hume says, quote, in the privacy of my own

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<v Speaker 2>home early in the morning of Sunday, November twenty fourth.

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<v Speaker 2>I made a draft of this report which I later revised,

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<v Speaker 2>and of which this represents the revision that draft I

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<v Speaker 2>personally burned in the fireplace of my recreation room.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, could you repeat that last.

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<v Speaker 2>Sentence, that draft I personally burned in the fireplace of

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<v Speaker 2>my recreation room. So he's admitting to the Warrant Commission

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<v Speaker 2>that he burned the original draft of the report, then

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<v Speaker 2>made a revised draft, and.

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<v Speaker 1>Once the revelation that Humes had burned the original copy

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<v Speaker 1>of the autopsy, he had to continue to defend himself.

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<v Speaker 2>In nineteen ninety two, doctor Humes told The New York

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<v Speaker 2>Times that the original copy was stained with blood and

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<v Speaker 2>he didn't want it to become a quote ghoulish collector's item.

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<v Speaker 2>He insisted that the second report was copied verbatim, word

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<v Speaker 2>for word from the draft he burned.

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<v Speaker 1>If it was only about accepting the lame excuse of

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<v Speaker 1>preserving the president's dignity, we might buy it. But burning

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<v Speaker 1>the autopsy report wasn't the only thing about the forensic

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<v Speaker 1>investigation that was suspicious, starting with the two so called

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<v Speaker 1>forensic pathologists that were in charge.

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<v Speaker 3>Humes and Boswell were not forensic pathologists.

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<v Speaker 4>That's Doug Horn.

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<v Speaker 2>From nineteen ninety five to eight, he was a senior

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<v Speaker 2>staff member of the President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records

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<v Speaker 2>Review Board, and he's an expert on the case.

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<v Speaker 3>Now, it should be troubling to everybody who studies this

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<v Speaker 3>case that the two people selected to be the number

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<v Speaker 3>one and number two pathologist, these guys were pathologists who

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<v Speaker 3>did deaths due to natural causes. So Hume's and Boswell

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<v Speaker 3>really weren't qualified to be doing this autopsy, and yet

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<v Speaker 3>they were picked.

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<v Speaker 2>So you have two doctors who are not certified nor

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<v Speaker 2>qualified in forensic pathology, and the lead doctor throws his

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<v Speaker 2>notes into the fireplace before handing in a revised draft.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

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<v Speaker 4>This is who killed JFK.

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<v Speaker 2>Sixty years later, What can we uncover about the greatest

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<v Speaker 2>murder mystery in American history? And why does it still

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<v Speaker 2>matter today? I'm your host, Solidad O'Brien.

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<v Speaker 1>In the last episode, we learned that it was the

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<v Speaker 1>intent of the Warren Commission to prove that Lee Harvey

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<v Speaker 1>Oswald was the lone assassin of President Kennedy. Alan Dulles,

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<v Speaker 1>the godfather of the CIA was placed on the Commission

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure that any damning information about the CIA

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<v Speaker 1>was kept hidden. J Edgar Hoover ignored evidence that might

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<v Speaker 1>implicate anyone other than Oswald. Then, in nineteen seventy six,

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<v Speaker 1>after learning that the Warren Commission had been compromised, the

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<v Speaker 1>House Select Committee on Assassinations launched a new investigation, and

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<v Speaker 1>though they were able to expose more than the Warren

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<v Speaker 1>Commission had, they too learned afterwards that their efforts had

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<v Speaker 1>been compromised because the liaison to the CIA that they

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<v Speaker 1>were given there was a man named George Joannedes. He

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<v Speaker 1>was a retired CIA agent who oversaw the special ops

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<v Speaker 1>program that had recruited Lejarvey. Oswald and joan Edes made

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<v Speaker 1>sure that the new committee never knew about that. And

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<v Speaker 1>although the House investigation concluded that Kennedy was killed as

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<v Speaker 1>a result of a conspiracy, they came to no conclusion

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<v Speaker 1>as to who took part in it. The result two

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<v Speaker 1>flawed government investigations with two completely different conclusions.

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<v Speaker 4>So where does it leave us.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, first, let's look at the forensics how the victim died.

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<v Speaker 1>After that we'll take a look at the man who

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<v Speaker 1>they claimed did it. We'll dive into Oswald's world. We'll

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<v Speaker 1>find out who he really was, who he may have

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<v Speaker 1>been working for, how he was set up, and who

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<v Speaker 1>could have pulled this off. Then we'll have it all

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<v Speaker 1>unfold again, from the days leading up to the assassination

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<v Speaker 1>to the moment that Jack Ruby silenced Oswald, except this time,

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<v Speaker 1>when we ultimately relive it, we'll know the forces hiding

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<v Speaker 1>in the shadows behind it all. Okay, so let's get

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<v Speaker 1>into this. In any murder case, the forensic evidence is critical.

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<v Speaker 1>It paints the picture of how the victim died, and

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<v Speaker 1>in this case, to prove a single gunman, the forensic

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<v Speaker 1>evidence should be straightforward. But trust me, it's far from that.

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<v Speaker 1>The bullets, the gun, the photographs, the doctor's first hand

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<v Speaker 1>reports are all heavily disputed, and in this episode we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to go through all of that. As I said,

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<v Speaker 1>like any other murder, you need to understand the forensic evidence.

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<v Speaker 5>Forensic evidence it mattered because it was essential in determining

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<v Speaker 5>the site from which the shot was fired.

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<v Speaker 6>That's the key to the case.

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<v Speaker 4>That's doctor Cyril wet renowned forensic pathologists.

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<v Speaker 5>The Warren commissioned report saying that Lee Harvey Oswald was

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<v Speaker 5>the sole assassin, the sole shooter, and that he fired

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<v Speaker 5>from behind from the sixth fur window of the Texas

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<v Speaker 5>school Book Depository building, and that there were no other shooters.

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<v Speaker 5>That's the essence of the case, because once you showed

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<v Speaker 5>two shooters, then you've got, of course, a conspiracy.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's take a look. According to the Warren report,

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<v Speaker 1>Oswald fired three shots.

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<v Speaker 4>How did they arrive at that number?

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<v Speaker 1>It was based on two initial pieces of evidence. One

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<v Speaker 1>was the Dallas police report and the second was the

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<v Speaker 1>Subruder film.

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<v Speaker 2>Remember the Dallas dressmaker Abraham's a Bruder, the whole thing

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<v Speaker 2>on camera.

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<v Speaker 1>The Saprudi film has no sound, so you can't hear

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<v Speaker 1>the shots, but you can see the President being hit twice,

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<v Speaker 1>and you can also see Governor Connolly sitting in the

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<v Speaker 1>passenger seat in front of Kennedy also getting hit. The

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<v Speaker 1>Zapruda film clearly shows three hits. So the Warren Commission

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<v Speaker 1>established three shots.

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<v Speaker 7>Unfortunately for them, there was a bystander named James tag.

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<v Speaker 2>That's doctor David Mantick. Doctor Mantick has made nine visits

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<v Speaker 2>to the National Archives where the President's x rays, autopsy photos,

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<v Speaker 2>and other critical evidence sits available for select members of

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<v Speaker 2>the public to review. You could try to get an

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<v Speaker 2>appointment to see them, or you could read any of

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<v Speaker 2>the three books doctor Mantick has written about them. According

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<v Speaker 2>to doctor Mantick, this bystander was about to create a

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<v Speaker 2>huge problem for the Warren Commission.

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<v Speaker 7>James Tag was standing under the overpass to the left

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<v Speaker 7>front of the limousine who was hit by some debris

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<v Speaker 7>that may have been a piece of concrete.

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<v Speaker 1>He's watching the motorcade when the first shot rings out

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<v Speaker 1>and he feels something sharp hit him in the cheek.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a piece of cement from the curb, and

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<v Speaker 1>all of a sudden his cheek starts bleeding. So clearly

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<v Speaker 1>the first shot completely missed the motorcade.

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<v Speaker 7>So this left the Warrant Commission only two shots to

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<v Speaker 7>work with to explain all the woods. So they knew

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<v Speaker 7>that one bullet had to kill Kennedy via a headshot,

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<v Speaker 7>So there goes one. You're only left with one more shot.

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<v Speaker 7>With that one shot, you have to explain everything else.

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<v Speaker 7>So that's where Arlen Spector rode to the rescue on

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<v Speaker 7>his shining white Horse and invented the magic bullet theory.

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<v Speaker 1>Otherwise known as the single bullet.

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<v Speaker 5>Theory, and so now begins the saga of the single

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<v Speaker 5>bullet theory.

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<v Speaker 2>That's doctor Weckt again, and he deserves a full introduction.

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<v Speaker 2>He's a highly decorated forensic expert who's done more than

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<v Speaker 2>seventeen thousand autopsies and who's been probing the jfk assassination

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<v Speaker 2>since the nineteen sixties. He's one of the most vocal

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<v Speaker 2>critics of the Warren Report and the single bullet theory.

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<v Speaker 5>Enter Arlen Spector, at that time junior legal consul for

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<v Speaker 5>the Warren Commission. Spector, to his credit, came up with

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<v Speaker 5>which seems to be a solution for them, and that

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<v Speaker 5>is known as the single bullet theory.

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<v Speaker 2>You'll remember Arlen Spector from our last episode. The journalist

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<v Speaker 2>Gayton Fonsie pressed him on his single bullet theory, and

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<v Speaker 2>when he gave Fonsie an evasive answer, Fonsie published a

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<v Speaker 2>scathing article.

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<v Speaker 5>The single bullet theory holds that one bullet entered the

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<v Speaker 5>president's back to begin with, moved upward, moving then inside

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<v Speaker 5>the president's chest eleven and a half degrees upward. How

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<v Speaker 5>in the hell is that possible? When the bullet comes out.

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<v Speaker 5>It's moving again downward, leftward, and forward, turns in midair,

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<v Speaker 5>comes back eighteen twenty inches and hits calmly behind the

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<v Speaker 5>right armpit, exiting below nipple level. The bullet in midair

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<v Speaker 5>turns upward sweeping motion, goes into the wrist presses a

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<v Speaker 5>common manufacture of one of the two line bones from

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<v Speaker 5>the elbow to the wrist. Exits from the wrist, re

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<v Speaker 5>enters the Governor's left thigh, and that is the pathway

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<v Speaker 5>of the single bullet.

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<v Speaker 2>The bullet presumably leaves the gun from the sixth floor

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<v Speaker 2>of the building that's now above and behind Kennedy, and

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<v Speaker 2>the bullet enters President Kennedy's back. Looking at a picture

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<v Speaker 2>of the president's jacket which you can easily find online,

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<v Speaker 2>the bullet hole is in the upper middle part of

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<v Speaker 2>his suit coat.

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<v Speaker 1>Right then it supposedly turns upward and comes out of

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<v Speaker 1>his throat.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, my colleagues are others who try to defend that

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<v Speaker 5>Singapore theory. They say, well, what if the president were

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<v Speaker 5>bent over tying his shoe. No, he wasn't doing that.

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<v Speaker 5>He was looking at the crowd and cheering and waving.

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<v Speaker 2>It's pretty clear when you watch the Subbruder film, he

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<v Speaker 2>is not hunched over. The president is poised upward toward

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<v Speaker 2>the crowd.

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<v Speaker 8>When Governor Connolly testified to the Warren Commission.

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<v Speaker 4>That's Dick Russell.

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<v Speaker 8>He repeated multiple times that he was not hit but

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<v Speaker 8>the same bullet that had hit JFK.

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<v Speaker 1>As a matter of fact, if you look at the

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<v Speaker 1>Zapruta film, you'll see that when Kennedy reacts to getting

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<v Speaker 1>hit in the throat, Connelly then turns around to see

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<v Speaker 1>what happened. Then moments later he gets hit. There's no

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<v Speaker 1>way that it can be the same bullet that hit Kennedy.

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<v Speaker 8>The surgeons who operated on Governor Connolly's wrist and chest

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<v Speaker 8>wounds at Parkland also noted that they did not think

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<v Speaker 8>all of his wounds had been made by the same bullet.

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<v Speaker 2>It seems to me people are divided into two camps.

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<v Speaker 2>Right There are people who believe the single bullet theory

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<v Speaker 2>and people who think the single bullet theory is crazy.

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<v Speaker 2>If you believe it, then you believe that one bullet

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<v Speaker 2>caused all that damage.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's not just about the path of the bullet.

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<v Speaker 1>To fully consider the single bullet theory, you have to

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<v Speaker 1>ask yourself two questions. The first question, how did the

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<v Speaker 1>bullet look when it was recovered?

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<v Speaker 5>If God came to me and said, what I want

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<v Speaker 5>you to get rid of every single piece of evidence,

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<v Speaker 5>and I'll allow you to keep one thing, one thing only,

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<v Speaker 5>that would be the bullet as it was recovered.

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<v Speaker 1>It is nearly perfect condition. You can see a picture

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<v Speaker 1>of that bullet in the National Archives. It's listed as

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<v Speaker 1>a Warrant Commission Exhibit three ninety nine. A bullet that

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<v Speaker 1>went in and out of both Kennedy and Connolly breaking

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<v Speaker 1>Connolly's bones still look pristine, which brings us to the

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<v Speaker 1>second question, where did they find the magic bullet?

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<v Speaker 5>What happened later on was that a maintenance man, finding

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<v Speaker 5>the er corridor blocked by a stretcher, bent down to

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<v Speaker 5>move the stretcher and level Behold, there was a bullet.

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<v Speaker 6>The bullets Christine.

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<v Speaker 5>Nobody had seen this bullet, missed Y, everybody h Dallas,

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<v Speaker 5>missed by everybody at Parkland before then.

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<v Speaker 1>And so on. That was the official story. This pristine

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<v Speaker 1>bullet just appeared on a stretcher in Parkland, a mystery

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<v Speaker 1>that has confused researches for decades until in September twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty three, there was a bombshell. A Secret Service agent

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<v Speaker 1>named Paul Landis was on the running board of the

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<v Speaker 1>car behind Kennedy.

0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:56.880
<v Speaker 9>New bombshell claims tonight by one of the Secret Service

0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.640
<v Speaker 9>agents was closest to John F. Kennedy when he was

0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:00.640
<v Speaker 9>a sund Fascinated the.

0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:05.160
<v Speaker 7>New version of what might have happened to the magic bullet.

0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.400
<v Speaker 2>Former Secret Service agent Paul Landis, who was with the

0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.360
<v Speaker 2>president that day, is opening up for the first time

0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:13.160
<v Speaker 2>about what he witnessed that.

0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:16.520
<v Speaker 9>According to The New York Times, could quote change the

0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:20.680
<v Speaker 9>understanding of what happened in Dallas in nineteen sixty three.

0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.840
<v Speaker 2>So Rob I saw this story in primetime on CNN,

0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.760
<v Speaker 2>on NBC, it was in People Magazine, it was in

0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:29.960
<v Speaker 2>Vanity Fair, it was in the New York Times.

0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:31.320
<v Speaker 4>They all covered it.

0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:36.720
<v Speaker 1>Right, and Paul Landis was kind enough to talk with us. Paul,

0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:40.920
<v Speaker 1>from where the president was sitting, how far behind were you?

0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:45.400
<v Speaker 6>Probably fifteen, no more than twenty eighty feet.

0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:51.200
<v Speaker 1>Can you just describe what you saw at the moment

0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:52.960
<v Speaker 1>that the president was hit.

0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:57.440
<v Speaker 10>Shortly after the second shot I had heard the third shot,

0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:03.320
<v Speaker 10>I saw the tribals had split wide ope on the

0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:07.640
<v Speaker 10>midst of blood and fleshed and green matter flew into

0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:12.240
<v Speaker 10>the air. I ducked to avoid getting splattered, and at

0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.440
<v Speaker 10>that point we assumed under the underpass and.

0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:19.160
<v Speaker 6>We were on our way to Party Memorial Hospital.

0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.600
<v Speaker 10>I raced to the President's and Missus Kennedy was sitting

0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:27.600
<v Speaker 10>on left center of the rear seat. There was a

0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:30.960
<v Speaker 10>pool of blood next to Missus Kennedy. As soon as

0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:34.960
<v Speaker 10>she stood up, right behind where she had been sitting,

0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:39.880
<v Speaker 10>there was a pristine bullet. I picked this bullet up.

0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:46.040
<v Speaker 10>It was not just formed, other than it had recognized

0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:50.440
<v Speaker 10>striations on that it had been fired. And looking around,

0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.320
<v Speaker 10>everybody was concentrating on the President.

0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:56.040
<v Speaker 11>I didn't know what to do right away, but I

0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:02.880
<v Speaker 11>was afraid this bullet an important piece of evidence and

0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:04.520
<v Speaker 11>I didn't want to get lost.

0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.760
<v Speaker 6>So I stepped it in my pocket and the raised in.

0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:14.480
<v Speaker 10>Journey carrying the President's body and were right at trauma

0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:15.200
<v Speaker 10>Room one.

0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:18.000
<v Speaker 6>People were shoving, pushing, shouting.

0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:22.160
<v Speaker 12>I happened to be pushed up right next to his feet,

0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:26.320
<v Speaker 12>so I reached into my pocket, took it out and

0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:28.800
<v Speaker 12>placed it by the president.

0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:29.720
<v Speaker 6>Slashed true.

0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:33.479
<v Speaker 1>So what does this tell us unless the single bullet

0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:37.320
<v Speaker 1>theorists are going to claim that the bullet, after going

0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.360
<v Speaker 1>through Kennedy and Connolly, was able to bounce back from

0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:45.359
<v Speaker 1>where it allegedly exited Connolly's body in the front seat

0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.919
<v Speaker 1>and somehow wound up in the backseat. It can't be

0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:54.360
<v Speaker 1>the same bullet. What Landis is telling us finally makes sense. First,

0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.359
<v Speaker 1>it explains how a bullet got onto a gurney at Parkland.

0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:01.240
<v Speaker 1>He put it there, And second explains why the bullet

0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.320
<v Speaker 1>was in near pristine condition. It never broke any bones

0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:10.600
<v Speaker 1>on its path through two people. This completely destroys the

0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:14.760
<v Speaker 1>single bullet theory. There is no magic bullet, which means

0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:19.000
<v Speaker 1>that there had to have been at least a fourth shot,

0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:23.119
<v Speaker 1>which means there had to have been another shooter. And

0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.200
<v Speaker 1>we know conclusively that Oswald could not have fired four

0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:31.359
<v Speaker 1>shots in that time span. This points directly at a conspiracy.

0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:33.879
<v Speaker 2>So then what's weird to me as a journalist is

0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.240
<v Speaker 2>this new testimony, Like he never mentioned this when he

0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:38.640
<v Speaker 2>was questioned sixty years ago.

0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:41.840
<v Speaker 1>He was never questioned sixty years ago.

0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:44.320
<v Speaker 6>Nobody ever asked Warren.

0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:48.520
<v Speaker 10>Commission never interviewed any of the other agents that were

0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:49.879
<v Speaker 10>in the filow up car.

0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.600
<v Speaker 1>Now let's talk about the number of shots fired. Remember,

0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.600
<v Speaker 1>the Warren report said that three shots were fired.

0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:01.240
<v Speaker 5>The manlier car Kano, a non automatic carbeam, which was

0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:06.960
<v Speaker 5>the alleged murder weapon used by Oswald, was tested by

0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:10.119
<v Speaker 5>top marksmen and it was determined that it took two

0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:14.280
<v Speaker 5>point three seconds from shot to shot, without allowing time

0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:19.600
<v Speaker 5>for reaiming and repositioning at a moving target. They determined

0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:23.320
<v Speaker 5>that the first shot that hit Kennedy was followed by

0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:27.160
<v Speaker 5>a second shot at one point five seconds. Well, how

0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:29.880
<v Speaker 5>was that possible when it was determined that it took

0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:32.360
<v Speaker 5>two point three seconds from shot to shot.

0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:37.280
<v Speaker 1>As they say, do the math the single bullet. The

0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:51.960
<v Speaker 1>timing of the shots were just getting started. Now, let's

0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:54.960
<v Speaker 1>take a look at some of the testimonies from the

0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:58.360
<v Speaker 1>Parkland doctors who tried to save Kennedy's life.

0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:02.200
<v Speaker 2>According to the war report, JFK's car raced from Dealey

0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.919
<v Speaker 2>Plaza to Parkland Hospital and it arrived at twelve thirty

0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:06.800
<v Speaker 2>five pm.

0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:10.800
<v Speaker 1>Everyone at Parkland was on high alert getting ready for

0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:15.479
<v Speaker 1>Kennedy's arrival. Among them was doctor Malcolm Perry, a trauma

0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:20.320
<v Speaker 1>room physician. He worked feverishly trying to keep the President alive,

0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:25.320
<v Speaker 1>but once the president was pronounced dead later that day,

0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:29.359
<v Speaker 1>he talked to the press and he described the shot

0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:32.879
<v Speaker 1>to Kennedy's neck as an entrance wound.

0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:37.920
<v Speaker 2>The New York Times published the transcript from that press conference.

0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:43.280
<v Speaker 2>It goes, reporter, where was the entrance wound, Doctor Perry?

0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:47.000
<v Speaker 2>There was an entrance wound in the neck. Reporter, Which

0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:49.760
<v Speaker 2>way was the bullet coming on the neck wound? Madam,

0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:54.360
<v Speaker 2>doctor Perry. It appeared to be coming at him. Reporter,

0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.760
<v Speaker 2>You think from the front in the throat. Dr Perry,

0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:01.600
<v Speaker 2>the wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the

0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:06.000
<v Speaker 2>front of the throat. Yes, that is correct. Well, so

0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:07.280
<v Speaker 2>that's pretty clear.

0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:12.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, one would think. But it's not the way doctor

0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:13.719
<v Speaker 1>Perry's story ends.

0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:18.640
<v Speaker 7>According to information we have just received from a recently

0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:24.040
<v Speaker 7>discovered notebook kept by Martin Steadman, we've learned a little

0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:26.640
<v Speaker 7>more about this story about doctor Perry.

0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:31.600
<v Speaker 2>That's doctor Mantick again now talking about the journalist Martin Steadman.

0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.440
<v Speaker 2>Steadman covered this story for decades.

0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:39.560
<v Speaker 7>A week after the assassination, Steedman and a few colleagues

0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.720
<v Speaker 7>went to visit doctor Perry at his home in Dallas,

0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:45.159
<v Speaker 7>and they asked him well, doctor Perry, what do you

0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:49.440
<v Speaker 7>really believe you think this was an entry wound? And

0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:52.720
<v Speaker 7>he said, absolutely, it was an entry wound. And he

0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:56.760
<v Speaker 7>told them what had happened the night of the autopsy

0:21:56.960 --> 0:21:59.959
<v Speaker 7>and the morning after. He said he had gotten several

0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:05.240
<v Speaker 7>calls from the autopsy room from the autopsy doctors who

0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:08.199
<v Speaker 7>told him that if he didn't change his mind about

0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:11.800
<v Speaker 7>the entry wound, he was probably going to lose his

0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:16.639
<v Speaker 7>medical license. And so the journalist finished up by asking him, well,

0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:19.320
<v Speaker 7>doctor Perry, after all of this, what do you really

0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:21.680
<v Speaker 7>think he said it was an entry wound.

0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:25.320
<v Speaker 4>So he says again, it's an entry wound.

0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:32.320
<v Speaker 7>After a long, long paragraph of assumptions, he finally admitted

0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:34.760
<v Speaker 7>to the Warrant Commission that it could have been a

0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:35.800
<v Speaker 7>shot from the rear.

0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:39.480
<v Speaker 2>But this is the guy who repeated three times that

0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:41.960
<v Speaker 2>the bullet entered from the front of the throat.

0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:44.280
<v Speaker 1>Right, why would he change his mind.

0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:50.600
<v Speaker 8>In the nineteen seventies, that's Dick Russell. A Dallas Secret

0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:54.440
<v Speaker 8>Service agent named Elmer Moore confessed that he quote had

0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:58.400
<v Speaker 8>badgered doctor Perry into making a flat statement that there

0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:01.040
<v Speaker 8>was no entrance wound in the net. He said he

0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:04.479
<v Speaker 8>was operating under orders from Washington and the Secret Service.

0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:08.200
<v Speaker 8>He said he regretted it, but that we all did

0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:11.320
<v Speaker 8>everything we were told, or we'd got our heads cut off.

0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:14.679
<v Speaker 1>Perry wasn't the only one that day who said that

0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:17.639
<v Speaker 1>the shots that hit Kennedy were fired from the front.

0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:21.720
<v Speaker 8>Statements from twenty one witnesses at Parkland Hospital that day

0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:25.520
<v Speaker 8>reported seeing a massive head wound in the back of

0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:26.399
<v Speaker 8>Kennedy's skull.

0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:31.280
<v Speaker 6>The doctors at Parkland described a big wound that reached

0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:35.560
<v Speaker 6>into the posterior part of the skull on the right side.

0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:38.840
<v Speaker 8>The journalist Connie Chritzberg interviewed some of those doctors at

0:23:38.920 --> 0:23:42.400
<v Speaker 8>Parkland in the immediate aftermath of that day. She got

0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:45.680
<v Speaker 8>testimony from one of the neurosurgeons, doctor Kemp Clark, who

0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:48.720
<v Speaker 8>also said that there was a huge wound in the

0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:50.440
<v Speaker 8>right rear of the president's head.

0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:54.439
<v Speaker 1>And then there's doctor McClellan, one of the surgeons that

0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:57.160
<v Speaker 1>worked to save the president's life that day.

0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:00.919
<v Speaker 8>Doctor McClellan testified to the Warren Commission that part of

0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:03.000
<v Speaker 8>the cerebellum was blasted away.

0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:06.760
<v Speaker 7>There was a big hole in the back of his head.

0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:08.800
<v Speaker 4>That's doctor Mantick again.

0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:11.600
<v Speaker 7>It was the size of an orange at least, if

0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:16.720
<v Speaker 7>not even a little larger. And dozens, literally dozens of

0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:18.760
<v Speaker 7>witnesses have said the same thing.

0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:22.119
<v Speaker 1>So the shot that killed the president came from the front.

0:24:22.560 --> 0:24:24.920
<v Speaker 7>It's totally consistent with a big hole in the back

0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:25.400
<v Speaker 7>of the head.

0:24:26.080 --> 0:24:31.080
<v Speaker 2>So were the doctor's testimonies just ignored by investigators and

0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:33.000
<v Speaker 2>by the folks on the Warren commission.

0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:37.720
<v Speaker 8>One of the doctors, Ron Jones, said that assassination investigators

0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:41.080
<v Speaker 8>knew of reports of a second shooter but ignored them.

0:24:41.359 --> 0:24:44.440
<v Speaker 8>A Warren commissioned investigator is said to have told him, quote,

0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:47.040
<v Speaker 8>we have people who had testified that they saw somebody

0:24:47.040 --> 0:24:49.880
<v Speaker 8>shoot the president from the front, but we don't want

0:24:49.920 --> 0:24:52.719
<v Speaker 8>to interview them, and I don't want you saying anything

0:24:52.720 --> 0:24:53.480
<v Speaker 8>about that either.

0:24:54.119 --> 0:24:55.879
<v Speaker 1>And who was that investigator?

0:24:56.200 --> 0:25:01.679
<v Speaker 2>Who arlinspector the creator of the single theory the same.

0:25:02.119 --> 0:25:05.600
<v Speaker 1>Now, let's dig deeper into what happened during the autopsy

0:25:06.040 --> 0:25:11.240
<v Speaker 1>at the Bethesda Naval Hospital. The Dallas doctors were unanimous.

0:25:11.359 --> 0:25:13.840
<v Speaker 3>If you study their treatment notes that they wrote the

0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:15.719
<v Speaker 3>day of the President's.

0:25:15.160 --> 0:25:16.600
<v Speaker 4>Death, that's Doug Horn.

0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:18.879
<v Speaker 3>It's that the president had a big blowout in the

0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:21.280
<v Speaker 3>right rear of his head behind his ear the right

0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:22.400
<v Speaker 3>rear portion of the head.

0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:23.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, the problem is.

0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:26.640
<v Speaker 3>That the autopsy photographs shows the back of the head

0:25:26.680 --> 0:25:27.600
<v Speaker 3>to be intact.

0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:37.240
<v Speaker 2>So doctor Horn, if the autopsy photographs in the archives

0:25:37.320 --> 0:25:40.000
<v Speaker 2>don't show a gaping wound in the back of his head,

0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:41.160
<v Speaker 2>what do they show.

0:25:41.440 --> 0:25:43.680
<v Speaker 3>The autopsy photographs show the in back of the head

0:25:43.680 --> 0:25:47.399
<v Speaker 3>to be intact, but that's contradicted by the treatment notes

0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:50.439
<v Speaker 3>of the Parkland doctors and by their testimony in nineteen

0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:54.200
<v Speaker 3>sixty four. So the government had a problem. If those

0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:57.600
<v Speaker 3>photographs had made it into the official record, that would

0:25:57.640 --> 0:26:01.800
<v Speaker 3>have supported the observations of the park Glenn doctors because

0:26:01.840 --> 0:26:05.400
<v Speaker 3>the right cerebellum would have been almost totally destroyed, most

0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:09.320
<v Speaker 3>of it missing, much of the rear of the brain missing.

0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:12.159
<v Speaker 7>When we look at the photographs of the back of

0:26:12.200 --> 0:26:16.119
<v Speaker 7>his head at the archives, everything is totally intact.

0:26:16.640 --> 0:26:18.320
<v Speaker 4>That's doctor Mantick again.

0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:21.600
<v Speaker 7>It looks like the hair has just been freshly washed

0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:26.320
<v Speaker 7>with hardly any blood anywhere, and yet the shirt is

0:26:26.440 --> 0:26:31.080
<v Speaker 7>totally sulked with blood. How's that possible. A woman named

0:26:31.119 --> 0:26:34.240
<v Speaker 7>Sandra K. Spencer processed the photos that were taken to

0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:36.680
<v Speaker 7>the President's head during the autopsy.

0:26:36.240 --> 0:26:39.720
<v Speaker 2>In November nineteen sixty three, she was a petty officer

0:26:39.760 --> 0:26:43.280
<v Speaker 2>in charge of the White House Laboratory at NPC, the

0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:46.919
<v Speaker 2>Naval Photographic Center. Here she is being interviewed by the

0:26:47.320 --> 0:26:49.240
<v Speaker 2>ARRB in the nineteen nineties.

0:26:50.560 --> 0:26:52.600
<v Speaker 10>Can you tell me whether those photographs well.

0:26:52.560 --> 0:26:56.040
<v Speaker 2>The questioner says, can you tell me whether those photographs

0:26:56.080 --> 0:27:00.000
<v Speaker 2>correspond with the photographs you developed in November of nineteen

0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:01.040
<v Speaker 2>teen sixty three.

0:27:01.720 --> 0:27:05.399
<v Speaker 5>She says, no, let's start with a conjecture whether the

0:27:05.480 --> 0:27:07.879
<v Speaker 5>photographs that you developed.

0:27:08.640 --> 0:27:12.439
<v Speaker 2>The questioner says, let's start with the conjecture as to

0:27:12.520 --> 0:27:15.760
<v Speaker 2>whether the photographs that you developed and the photographs that

0:27:15.840 --> 0:27:19.520
<v Speaker 2>you observe today could have been taken at different times.

0:27:19.760 --> 0:27:25.560
<v Speaker 2>I would definitely, she says, I would definitely say they

0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:27.240
<v Speaker 2>were taken at different times.

0:27:28.080 --> 0:27:33.080
<v Speaker 7>Of course, the actual authentic autopsy photographs did show a

0:27:33.080 --> 0:27:34.520
<v Speaker 7>big hole in the back of the head, and we

0:27:34.600 --> 0:27:38.840
<v Speaker 7>have solo witnesses at the autopsy who saw those photographs

0:27:39.080 --> 0:27:41.000
<v Speaker 7>and their testimonies in their record today.

0:27:42.000 --> 0:27:45.040
<v Speaker 2>To be clear, what you're saying is that the photos

0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:48.719
<v Speaker 2>that Sondra k Spencer developed are not the ones that

0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:50.520
<v Speaker 2>are in the National Archives.

0:27:53.119 --> 0:27:55.400
<v Speaker 3>I did a chain of custody study on the autopsy

0:27:55.400 --> 0:27:57.679
<v Speaker 3>report while I was at the review board. And so

0:27:57.760 --> 0:27:59.920
<v Speaker 3>the first thing I discovered is that doctor Humes had

0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:01.320
<v Speaker 3>who sets a conclusions.

0:28:01.720 --> 0:28:04.800
<v Speaker 2>That's what makes it all the more remarkable that he

0:28:05.040 --> 0:28:06.480
<v Speaker 2>burned his first copy.

0:28:07.080 --> 0:28:10.320
<v Speaker 3>Sometime after the FBI agents left. Humes made this new

0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:15.840
<v Speaker 3>pronouncement because somebody had called doctor Perry at Parkland Hospital.

0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:17.400
<v Speaker 4>How do we know this?

0:28:17.840 --> 0:28:21.280
<v Speaker 3>Perry told Nurse Bell the following day. She said, you

0:28:21.359 --> 0:28:23.960
<v Speaker 3>look like hell, what's wrong? And he said, well, I

0:28:24.000 --> 0:28:26.320
<v Speaker 3>didn't get much sleep last night. And she said why

0:28:27.040 --> 0:28:29.480
<v Speaker 3>and he said, well, they had me on the phone

0:28:29.600 --> 0:28:32.639
<v Speaker 3>off and on all night long from Bethesden Naval Hospital.

0:28:33.080 --> 0:28:35.240
<v Speaker 3>People were trying to get me to change my mind

0:28:35.640 --> 0:28:38.960
<v Speaker 3>about the fact that the president was shot in the

0:28:39.000 --> 0:28:41.320
<v Speaker 3>throat from the front. They wanted me to change my

0:28:41.440 --> 0:28:43.960
<v Speaker 3>mind and say that was really an exit win in

0:28:44.000 --> 0:28:44.640
<v Speaker 3>his throat.

0:28:44.880 --> 0:28:48.000
<v Speaker 1>This was all happening the night of the assassination.

0:28:48.600 --> 0:28:51.720
<v Speaker 3>Humes and Boswell met the next morning on Saturday to

0:28:51.800 --> 0:28:54.520
<v Speaker 3>review the first draft of the autopsy report. They met

0:28:54.520 --> 0:28:57.080
<v Speaker 3>at ten o'clock in the morning. Humes worked on it

0:28:57.120 --> 0:29:00.480
<v Speaker 3>all night at home and it was tighted Boswell. This

0:29:00.640 --> 0:29:04.760
<v Speaker 3>under oath. Somebody that day rejected that report because what

0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:08.080
<v Speaker 3>does Humes do on Sunday? He burns the first draft

0:29:08.240 --> 0:29:12.360
<v Speaker 3>of the autopsy report and most of the original notes

0:29:12.680 --> 0:29:13.600
<v Speaker 3>in his fireplace.

0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:18.920
<v Speaker 4>Okay, So where does this leave us? Sum it up

0:29:18.960 --> 0:29:19.160
<v Speaker 4>for me?

0:29:19.520 --> 0:29:23.520
<v Speaker 1>Okay? The Warrant Commission manipulated the evidence to fit their

0:29:23.600 --> 0:29:26.840
<v Speaker 1>single bullet theory in order to prove that Oswald was

0:29:26.880 --> 0:29:32.040
<v Speaker 1>a lone gunman who shot the president from behind. Several witnesses,

0:29:32.120 --> 0:29:35.760
<v Speaker 1>many of them medical professionals, who saw Kennedy's wounds at

0:29:35.800 --> 0:29:40.800
<v Speaker 1>Parkland Hospital that day, contradicted this. They said that the

0:29:40.840 --> 0:29:44.280
<v Speaker 1>president's wounds were a result of shots that came from

0:29:44.280 --> 0:29:48.560
<v Speaker 1>the front. The autopsy report, conducted by doctors who had

0:29:48.720 --> 0:29:52.200
<v Speaker 1>very little experience with gunshot wounds who had burned the

0:29:52.240 --> 0:29:57.360
<v Speaker 1>original report, contained photographs that had no correlation to the

0:29:57.400 --> 0:30:01.840
<v Speaker 1>wounds observed by the Parkland doctors or the photographer who

0:30:01.920 --> 0:30:05.480
<v Speaker 1>initially took the pictures. All of this points to the

0:30:05.520 --> 0:30:10.640
<v Speaker 1>shooters in locations other than just the sixth floor of

0:30:10.680 --> 0:30:15.560
<v Speaker 1>the Texas school Book Depository, and that means whatever Lee

0:30:15.600 --> 0:30:19.360
<v Speaker 1>Harvey Oswald was doing that day, he did not do

0:30:19.480 --> 0:30:20.000
<v Speaker 1>it alone.

0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:23.720
<v Speaker 2>You seem convinced that the forensics lead to the conclusion

0:30:23.720 --> 0:30:26.200
<v Speaker 2>that there had to be more than one shooter. So

0:30:26.240 --> 0:30:29.840
<v Speaker 2>then why is the official narrative still one of a

0:30:29.920 --> 0:30:30.680
<v Speaker 2>lone gunman.

0:30:31.080 --> 0:30:34.360
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's perfect that you use that word narrative

0:30:34.840 --> 0:30:39.240
<v Speaker 1>because the evidence is going to show that Oswald was

0:30:39.360 --> 0:30:43.200
<v Speaker 1>part of a narrative, a narrative that he was completely

0:30:43.320 --> 0:30:45.960
<v Speaker 1>unaware of. And when you take a look at his

0:30:46.080 --> 0:30:52.200
<v Speaker 1>journey into this narrative, the picture will become a lot clearer.

0:30:55.320 --> 0:30:57.560
<v Speaker 4>Next time on Who Killed JFK.

0:30:58.440 --> 0:31:03.080
<v Speaker 1>If you don't learn who Lee Harvey Oswell really was,

0:31:03.640 --> 0:31:07.320
<v Speaker 1>there's no way you can understand what happened on that day.

0:31:07.840 --> 0:31:11.480
<v Speaker 2>We'll pull back the curtain on Lee Harvey Oswald Well.

0:31:11.480 --> 0:31:14.760
<v Speaker 5>I was under the impression that Lee has being trained

0:31:14.800 --> 0:31:16.240
<v Speaker 5>for a specific operation.

0:31:17.000 --> 0:31:21.200
<v Speaker 8>He was of interest to the highest counterintelligence officer in

0:31:21.240 --> 0:31:25.360
<v Speaker 8>the CIA for four years before President Kennedy was killed.

0:31:28.640 --> 0:31:32.000
<v Speaker 2>Who Killed JFK is hosted by Rob Reiner and me

0:31:32.360 --> 0:31:36.800
<v Speaker 2>Solidad O'Brien, and our executive producers are Rob Reiner, Michelle Reiner,

0:31:36.960 --> 0:31:41.560
<v Speaker 2>Matt George, Jason English, David Hoffman, and Me Solidad O'Brien.

0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:45.719
<v Speaker 2>Our writer is David Hoffman, with research by Dick Russell.

0:31:46.080 --> 0:31:49.920
<v Speaker 2>Our story editors are Rob Reiner and Julie Pinnero. Our

0:31:49.960 --> 0:31:55.000
<v Speaker 2>senior producer is Julie Pinnerto. Our producers are Tristan Nash,

0:31:55.200 --> 0:31:59.560
<v Speaker 2>Dick Russell, Michelle Goldfein and Amari Lead. Our editors are

0:31:59.600 --> 0:32:03.920
<v Speaker 2>Tristan Nash, Julie Pinetto and Marcus de Lauro. Our project

0:32:03.920 --> 0:32:10.240
<v Speaker 2>manager is Carol Klein. Our associate producer is emilse Kiros. Mixing,

0:32:10.440 --> 0:32:14.360
<v Speaker 2>mastering and sound design by Ben la Julie and archival

0:32:14.440 --> 0:32:17.880
<v Speaker 2>audio in this episode thanks to The Six Floor Museum

0:32:18.080 --> 0:32:22.000
<v Speaker 2>and Dick Russell. Research and fact checking by Girl Friday

0:32:22.040 --> 0:32:27.440
<v Speaker 2>and emilse Kiros. Business affairs by Henan Nadea and Jonathan Furman.

0:32:28.280 --> 0:32:32.840
<v Speaker 2>Our consulting producer is Razanne Galliini. Recorded in part at

0:32:32.920 --> 0:32:37.920
<v Speaker 2>CDM Studio and Fourth Street Recording Studio. Show logo by

0:32:38.000 --> 0:32:43.320
<v Speaker 2>Lucy Quintanilla. Production assistants by Rocco Del Prior and Grace Barron.

0:32:44.080 --> 0:32:48.040
<v Speaker 2>Special thanks to Johonig Rose Arse and Dan Storper. If

0:32:48.080 --> 0:32:50.720
<v Speaker 2>you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating and review

0:32:50.840 --> 0:32:54.920
<v Speaker 2>on your favorite podcast platform. Who Killed JFK is a

0:32:54.920 --> 0:33:01.160
<v Speaker 2>production Solidad O'Brien Productions and iHeart podcasts, s,