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Speaker 1: Hi am Kate Hudson, and my name is Oliver Hudson.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationships and

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Speaker 1: what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling raivalry. No, no, sibling.

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Speaker 1: You don't do that with your mouth velry. That's good.

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Speaker 1: Oliver Hudson. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back in your house,

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Speaker 1: in your house. One of the great moments that I

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Speaker 1: had in this whole election week was when Ed Helms

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Speaker 1: sent a green map of the United States of all

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Speaker 1: of the places that have legalized marijuana. Yeah, and then

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Speaker 1: on top of that the places that are looking at

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Speaker 1: psilocybin and psychedelics as also well. And so Oregon. I

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Speaker 1: love that. Oregon just went from Okay, we're not going

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Speaker 1: to go from weed to mushroomers. We're just going to

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Speaker 1: go from weed to fucking special k meth. Let's just

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Speaker 1: let's just let's just knock them right. All. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: was shooting a movie in Bend, Oregon, and and we

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Speaker 1: had our hair and makeup trailers stolen, and they found

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Speaker 1: with all our wigs and everything in it, and they

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Speaker 1: found it in out in a field because these guys

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Speaker 1: were meth guys stole it to go cook cook, and

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Speaker 1: so they found it and they were cooking meth in

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Speaker 1: our and the trailer. That's a score for them. They

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Speaker 1: were probably like this is sweet, Like, dude, we could

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Speaker 1: wash our hair and cook and there's wigs. There's wigs.

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Speaker 1: And then they like they was all still. They just

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Speaker 1: left everything. They left everything. But we were sort of like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we probably should just like throw it all out because

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Speaker 1: you know, who knows what you know now, But you're right,

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Speaker 1: the map is pretty green right now. Yeah, I just

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Speaker 1: I think that's a great thing. And we've always had

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Speaker 1: fascination with psychedelics and what they can provide for people

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Speaker 1: in terms of healing and looking deeper into their psyche.

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Speaker 1: So what did we do all over it? We talked

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Speaker 1: to doc we Matthew Johnson at Johns Hopkins. This was

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Speaker 1: a really exciting interview. We recorded this back in February

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Speaker 1: and we're releasing it now. So doctor Johnson, he's a

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Speaker 1: professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Johns Hopkins. He's

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Speaker 1: been published me. I think he's one of the world's

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Speaker 1: most published scientists on the human effects of psychedelic Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the world's most. I mean, this guy knows what he's

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Speaker 1: talking about. He's the associate director of the Johns Hopkins

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Speaker 1: Center of Psychedelic and Consciousness Research. I mean, if that

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Speaker 1: doesn't get you excited, I don't know. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what does. But he conducts basic research and therapeutic studies

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Speaker 1: with psilocybin and other psychedelic compounds. So we kind of

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Speaker 1: got into with him what he uses, how he does it,

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Speaker 1: what he's looking for. And this isn't about tripping out,

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Speaker 1: you know, and it's also not about microdosing. By the way,

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Speaker 1: is the big thing right now mushroom chocolates and all

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Speaker 1: that we asked him about that we don't know. We

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Speaker 1: don't do that kind of research. He goes, remember, he goes,

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Speaker 1: he goes. My favorite patients are the mushroom heads basically,

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Speaker 1: who come and they're like, give me what you got, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he just rocks their world. That's how much is

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Speaker 1: to really take you into a place, because you know,

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Speaker 1: there's through his studies he's trying to find treatment, you know,

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Speaker 1: for opioid addictions, PSD, anxiety depression, depression. Well, I think

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Speaker 1: the thing is smoking. We all know the thing about

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Speaker 1: mushrooms we all know, okay, those of us who have

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Speaker 1: taken copious amounts of mushrooms. By the way, I'm watching

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Speaker 1: this documentary. It's called The Fantastic World of Fungi. No Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's beautiful. Fungi fungi. That's why I said it like

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Speaker 1: that everyone's saying fungi in the documentary. I'm like, I've

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Speaker 1: been saying it wrong the whole time. It's not fungi.

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Speaker 1: It's yeah, fungi, fungi, fungie something like that. It's not

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Speaker 1: fungi like fuji. But it's beautiful and it's it talks

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Speaker 1: about just mushrooms and just general and how every step

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Speaker 1: that we take on the earth, we are stepping on fungi. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: fund you how incredible it is in sort of the

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Speaker 1: makeup of I love mushrooms, all kinds of mushrooms. I

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Speaker 1: love eating them, I love tripping with them. But here's

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Speaker 1: the thing. Here's the thing. There's a big difference between like,

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna be real open and honest here because

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Speaker 1: who cares. I had I went through this this moment

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Speaker 1: in my life where I was very scared to have

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Speaker 1: a psychedelic experience, and when I finally did For me,

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Speaker 1: It's like I didn't I wasn't interested in taking seeing

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Speaker 1: what my friends you used to do, they would like

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Speaker 1: take a mushroom and like go to a concert and

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Speaker 1: they'd be laughing and like tripping whatever. To me, that

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Speaker 1: looked kind of I was like, I I don't want

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Speaker 1: to be at a concert if I'm gonna do this,

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Speaker 1: I want to get weird, you know. And so I

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Speaker 1: remember the first time I did it. I was twenty

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Speaker 1: one years old, and I just couldn't believe that something

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Speaker 1: was available that could It was like it was like

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Speaker 1: to me, it was like seeing the other side. Like

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Speaker 1: to me, I remember looking at the light and the

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Speaker 1: way that the light was hitting the trees and the

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Speaker 1: house that we were at in Woodstock, and I was

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Speaker 1: like oh oh oh, oh okay. And for me, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to go deeper. There wasn't just like oh yea,

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Speaker 1: I want to laugh. I was like, no, I want

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Speaker 1: to get I want to keep going. Where does this go?

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Speaker 1: And and everything's breathing and everything's connecting, and you feel

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Speaker 1: so connected right and you do it's unrare. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's well uly And to me it's like I don't

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Speaker 1: look at that it's like, Okay, now I just want

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Speaker 1: to like do that all the time and be there

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Speaker 1: all the time. And now I'm right now, I actually

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Speaker 1: look at that and I go, Wow, that's fascinating. I'd

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Speaker 1: love to know more about this. And so when when

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Speaker 1: I'm talking with someone like doctor Johnson, to me, it's

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Speaker 1: not it's not flippant, it's not funny. It's not just

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Speaker 1: about like you know, hay Man Peace shuns like, yeah, okay, whatever.

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Speaker 1: This is really about how there are things that that

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Speaker 1: derive naturally that can change how how our brains can

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Speaker 1: process and deal with trauma. Psilocybin can actually well, this

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Speaker 1: isn't about basically, it's not just about tripping. It's just

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Speaker 1: about it's about how these derivatives from this earth can

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Speaker 1: actually we medicate trauma. We medicate people on drugs. They

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Speaker 1: affect the way that our systems work. They're man made

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Speaker 1: chemical drugs that people take for depression, that people take

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Speaker 1: for by the way I do taking God thank God

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Speaker 1: that we have these things. But there are alternative But

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Speaker 1: there are alternatives. And the fact that there's men like

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Speaker 1: doctor Johnson and Johns Hopskins doing research on psilocybin as

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Speaker 1: a treatment is to me just so exciting. Well the

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Speaker 1: other thing too that I loved that this isn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: a cure for you know, an opioid addiction or depression

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Speaker 1: or anxiety in some way, yes, but he also deals

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Speaker 1: with patients who are terminal and their fear of death

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Speaker 1: and how they're not able to sort of live the

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Speaker 1: rest of their days in a good, happy places. Not

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Speaker 1: that it's easy to do, but what he has been

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Speaker 1: experimenting with as well is dosing these patients and watching

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Speaker 1: them come out without that fear, being able to live

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Speaker 1: the rest of their years, months, whatever present moment with

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Speaker 1: their family and not have that sort of just suppress

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Speaker 1: the rest of your life, which is pretty cool too.

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Speaker 1: And there's been so what happened to me with ayahuasca.

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Speaker 1: We got to interview someone that's like an Iowa, I

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Speaker 1: want to do ayahuasca. We got to interview someone that

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Speaker 1: can we do ayahuasca and then do a podcast in

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Speaker 1: the middle of ayahuascar. Now that would be terrible. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it could be amazing. Don't forget. I was there are

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Speaker 1: the first time you did take mushrooms that everywhere and

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Speaker 1: you're going to have a full on it's going to

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Speaker 1: be intense for you, right, Okay. Anyway, So he's been

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Speaker 1: working since on psychedelics. He's been working since two thousand

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Speaker 1: and four. He published Psychedelic Safety Guidelines in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and eight, helping to resurrect psychedelic research. He's currently president

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Speaker 1: of the International Society for Research on Psychedelics. If there

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Speaker 1: is anybody to talk to about psychedelics, it is doctor

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Speaker 1: Matthew Johnson. So I hope you enjoy this episode because

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Speaker 1: we really loved it. Peace, Doctor matt Dude Johnson. Hi, Hi,

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Speaker 1: We're so excited to talk to you. I can't even

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Speaker 1: tell you just because of the upswing and the psychedelics,

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Speaker 1: and especially in the psilocybin world. You know, it has

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Speaker 1: been taken now in ways that I never took them before,

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Speaker 1: meaning it was it was before I was eating mushrooms

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Speaker 1: like just stems and caps, and now it's chocolates and

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Speaker 1: everything else. And I'm super pumped to sort of get

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Speaker 1: all of just a download. We just were talking about

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Speaker 1: micro dosing and and Oliver. We just said all of

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Speaker 1: is only macro dosed, So we're so it'll be interesting

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Speaker 1: to talk about all of the step you doing. But

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of people who don't even

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Speaker 1: know what mushrooms or psilocybin is. So I'd love for

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Speaker 1: you to just talk about, first of all, how you

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Speaker 1: got involved in the whole world of psilocybin and mushrooms. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I became interested in psychedelics when I was about

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Speaker 1: nineteen years old. So I was sort of on a

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Speaker 1: hiatus from college. I sort of had an early midlife crisis,

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Speaker 1: you know, trying to really figure out what the heck

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Speaker 1: I wanted to do. I had dropped out of an

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Speaker 1: engineering program and eventually landed on Oh I wanted to

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Speaker 1: go into psychology, and everyone told me all was crazy.

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Speaker 1: And during that break I discovered a number of things,

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Speaker 1: including the earlier era of psychedelic research and reading books

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Speaker 1: by folks like ram Das Richard Alpert who passed away recently,

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Speaker 1: and became that that was part of what got me

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Speaker 1: interested in psychology in general. And I recognized early on

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Speaker 1: that this was this fascinating area of research that had

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Speaker 1: been at the forefront of psychiatry and neuroscience, but it

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Speaker 1: was completely dropped and not for good scientific or medical reasons.

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Speaker 1: It was really purely political and cultural. You know that

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Speaker 1: was just fascinating that there were all these threads left

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Speaker 1: angling and it seemed clear that this was going to

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Speaker 1: be picked up, so I was able to jump into

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Speaker 1: Fast forward a few years, I finished my PhD in

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Speaker 1: experimental psychology with a focus on it's called different things,

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Speaker 1: but psychopharmacology, which is the study of drugs and behavior,

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Speaker 1: the study of drugs and the mind. I like to

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Speaker 1: call it the good, the bad, and the ugly of drugs,

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Speaker 1: psychoactive drugs, including addiction. But one of the areas of

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Speaker 1: deep interest to me were the potential positive effects of psychedelics.

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Speaker 1: So I got into that in two thousand and four

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Speaker 1: when I started my postdoctoral fellowship and I've been studying

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Speaker 1: psychedelics ever since, and it's been fifteen years, and it's

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Speaker 1: really it's like black and white. I mean, back then,

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Speaker 1: everyone was like, Wow, you're in such a great career trajectory.

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Speaker 1: You know, what the hell are you doing. You're good

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Speaker 1: luck ever getting funding in that, good luck ever having

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Speaker 1: a career in that. And now it's like, yeah, the

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Speaker 1: world has caught up, and it's been very It's been

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Speaker 1: very good to me, and it's still the most fascinating

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Speaker 1: thing I'm involved with in psychedelics, do you mean LSD, psilocybin,

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Speaker 1: pod any any kind of psychedelic ayahuasca, DMT, those kinds

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Speaker 1: of every Okay, I think all the ones, if my

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Speaker 1: working memory is good enough, all the ones you just

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Speaker 1: listed are all called classic psychedelics, So that's the to

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Speaker 1: be nerdy. They're in the same drug class. They hit

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Speaker 1: the same main brain receptor, kind of like the downers,

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Speaker 1: the benzos, like xanax, valium, atavan. They're all variations on

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Speaker 1: a theme. They have the same basic mechanism in the brain.

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Speaker 1: So all the classic psychedelics also have the same basic mechanism.

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Speaker 1: It's serotonin two A they have. And there are other

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Speaker 1: drugs that are called psychedelic that have similar effects by

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Speaker 1: different primary mechanisms, so like ketamine MDMA, eyebo gain. There's

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Speaker 1: a number of them. Even more so back in the day,

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Speaker 1: cannabis was often called a minor psychedelic. So speaking, you know,

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Speaker 1: oftentimes I'll speak with more specificities about classic psychedelics because

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that are about those that

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Speaker 1: are unique that don't necessarily apply to the others, like

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Speaker 1: a robust body safety. You know, it's very, very very

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Speaker 1: difficult to die on a classic psychedelic because of its

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Speaker 1: effects on your body. You could do something stupid like

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Speaker 1: wander into traffic or panic and do something. But so

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Speaker 1: that's one of the things that's true of the classic psychedelics.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't necessarily translate. I have a question. Actually I

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Speaker 1: read Michael Pollan's book and so I learned a little

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Speaker 1: bit about it, and it was just fascinating to me

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Speaker 1: how in the fifties, when this was being studied and

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Speaker 1: researched and advances were actually being made to see it

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Speaker 1: sort of crumble because the counterculture got a hold of

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Speaker 1: it and exposed the sort of party element to it.

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Speaker 1: They were all gone on the bus man, right, is

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Speaker 1: essentially is that what happened? And is Timothy Leary a

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Speaker 1: part of that problem? Is really Ken Keezy that was

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Speaker 1: more responsible for that. He turned on more people to

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Speaker 1: psychedelics books and he and he really it's funny because

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Speaker 1: like the associations now are like think you know, the

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Speaker 1: Bay Area Tied Die, Color, Grateful Dead, all these associations

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Speaker 1: that all was Ken Kesey and his pranksters in the

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Speaker 1: Bay Area back in the day. And so the question

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Speaker 1: about either one I mean, really it was much larger

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Speaker 1: than that. I mean, if Leary wasn't around, I mean,

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Speaker 1: his special place was he was a legit researcher, So

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Speaker 1: kind of the story became, oh, you can't even trust

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Speaker 1: the scientists the doctors with this stuff. But you know,

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Speaker 1: you look at his path. He was kicked out of

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Speaker 1: two universities long before he ever took a psychedelic or

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Speaker 1: studied psychedelics, so he was kind of a had a

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Speaker 1: wild man streak. And there were lots of like figures

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Speaker 1: that were your researchers that aren't an everyday name, like

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Speaker 1: Sidney Cohen and Abram Hoffer and Humphrey Osmond that were like,

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Speaker 1: you know, big fans of the potential psychedelics and we're

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Speaker 1: studying them. In fact, many of them long before Leary,

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Speaker 1: and they were begging Leary to tone it down, like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, you're gonna freak people out, so you're

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Speaker 1: gonna make this whole thing collapse, which is what happened.

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Speaker 1: But I really think if if it wasn't for Leary,

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Speaker 1: it would have happened anyway. It was such a there

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Speaker 1: were so many, so you're saying it was really the

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Speaker 1: grateful Dead that was responsible for the collapse of research.

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Speaker 1: They just blew that shit right out of the water

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Speaker 1: and fucked everybody because they were all just so high

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Speaker 1: all the time. Well, I mean there were I mean,

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Speaker 1: one bit of info is here. The average dose of

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Speaker 1: LSD back in the day, in the late seventies or

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Speaker 1: late sixties, early seventies, was three hundred micrograms. Today that

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Speaker 1: the average joses around forty to fifty micrograms. That's a

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Speaker 1: big difference. There were a lot of people going to

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Speaker 1: the er on bad trips, and that was a real thing.

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Speaker 1: And so these these are very powerful tools, and there

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Speaker 1: are there were casualties. There are also plenty of people

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Speaker 1: that say it their life for the better, and they

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Speaker 1: can point to examples of how their life was improved.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think there's truth to both. He

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Speaker 1: when the wonderful world of beds, it's one of the

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Speaker 1: most beautiful players to put you. Oh that was good, Ali,

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Speaker 1: I'm home, I'm on my I'm in my helix. I'm

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Speaker 1: on my helix. Does it feel weird to know that

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Speaker 1: your friend slept on your helix? Do you think that

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Speaker 1: it was good energy when Marcus was there? Yeah? All right,

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Speaker 1: you made love in the Helix and added to it.

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Speaker 1: He rocked, right, you know it's great. You know it's

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Speaker 1: great too, is you know Mark? As I said before,

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Speaker 1: it does a lot of hotels. He's opening up a

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Speaker 1: hotel and Big Bear yea February, and I was with

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Speaker 1: him yesterday watching football and he goes, I need to

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Speaker 1: get in touch with Helix because I would love to

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Speaker 1: put Helix throughout all of my hotels. Whoa, I have

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Speaker 1: to put in a called the Helix. But anyway, yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm very happy, by the way. That's awesome. I know.

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Speaker 1: Let me explain it. Let me explain Helix to you

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Speaker 1: very quickly. You take a quiz. It just takes two

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Speaker 1: minutes to complete. It matches your body type and your

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Speaker 1: sleep preferences with the perfect mattress for you. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: say you like really soft or firm, or you sleep

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Speaker 1: on your side or your back or your stomach. Helix

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Speaker 1: will put you put those in and it will spit

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Speaker 1: out the perfect mattress. Yeah, it gets you a specific

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Speaker 1: mattress for your unique to take. Right. That's exactly right.

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Speaker 1: GQ awarded it GQN Wired Magazine actually ordered it best

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Speaker 1: overall Mattress Pick No. Number one in twenty nineteen, in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty. Yeah, so what do you gotta do. You

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Speaker 1: gotta go to Helix sleep dot com slash sibling takes

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Speaker 1: their two minutes sleep quiz and they'll match you to

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Speaker 1: a customized mattress that will give you the best sleep

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Speaker 1: of your life. Ten year warranty, one hundred nights risk free. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they might as well take you might as well just

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Speaker 1: do it one hundred nights risk free, one hundred nights.

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Speaker 1: So Helix is offering up to two hundred dollars off

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Speaker 1: of all mattress orders and two free pillows for our

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Speaker 1: listeners at Ohio sleep dot com slash stabling that pillows

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Speaker 1: are great. Pillows are great. Yeah, by the way, that's

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Speaker 1: not something to sort of sluff off their are right,

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Speaker 1: I apologize, I s left it. The pillows are amazing.

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Speaker 1: So one for you and one for your partner, or

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Speaker 1: if you don't have a partner, it's waiting for a

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Speaker 1: new part waiting for a little one night stand after

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Speaker 1: the vaccination comes out. So that's Helix h E l

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Speaker 1: i X sleep dot com slash sibling from up to

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Speaker 1: two hundred dollars off cores lights up the rockies. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's fun when I when I that we get to

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Speaker 1: do these cores lights as is. I see billboards and

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Speaker 1: stuff and it's like, like, what's your moment to chill?

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, I do that, Like I say that,

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Speaker 1: that's me. I'm a part of this whole ad campaign.

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Speaker 1: I take pride. I take pride in it when I

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Speaker 1: see other things. You know what I was I was

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Speaker 1: where was I? Oh? I was going downtown and there's

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Speaker 1: a big course like a on the side of a

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Speaker 1: building and it had the Blue Mountains and I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know all about the Blue Mountains. I'm the same.

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Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, that's me. It's like it's like I

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Speaker 1: almost own a company. I'm like, that's us. I feel

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Speaker 1: like we should. Course, we got to talk. We love

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Speaker 1: this beer. We're Colorado folk and I'm made to chill.

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Speaker 1: That that's when we are and we are we are

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Speaker 1: made to chill. This family is made sometimes, although lately

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Speaker 1: it's been a little weird. I've been angry about that.

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Speaker 1: Is there another yells at everybody? Yeah, but not when

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Speaker 1: you're not. Look if we did a therapy, Danny, We're

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Speaker 1: drinking a course light up at pine Creek cook House.

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Speaker 1: Beautiful day we went, we took a hike. You guys

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Speaker 1: had a course. You weren't yelling at anybody's when I

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Speaker 1: drink a course. No, I don't yell you chill out.

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Speaker 1: Let me explain it to you really quickly. Okay. So

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Speaker 1: three step cold process, cold logger, cold filtered, and cold package.

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Speaker 1: So it's actually made to chill, literally literally made to

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Speaker 1: chill the mountains on the Course Light. They're cold activated bottles,

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Speaker 1: so the can actually turns blue when it's the temperature

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Speaker 1: it's supposed to be, which is kind of my favorite thing.

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Speaker 1: So that's why Corse Light is the one that we

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Speaker 1: choose when we need a moment of chill. And right

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Speaker 1: now we're in chill mode, no doubt about it. So

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Speaker 1: when you want to reset, reach for the beer that

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Speaker 1: is made to chill. And you can have course Light

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Speaker 1: delivered by going to get dot Corslight dot com. Deliver

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Speaker 1: that shit, deliver that shit dot local light dot com,

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Speaker 1: local local, and please remember, celebrate responsibly. Corse Brewing Company, Golden, Colorado.

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Speaker 1: So can can you explain what these sessions are that

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Speaker 1: you are doing. First, they're coming for screening, they're medically screw.

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Speaker 1: We make sure they don't have like severe heart disease

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Speaker 1: risk and a number of other things like that. That's

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Speaker 1: about two days worth of medical screening, about four or

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Speaker 1: five hours worth this or that, check their blood and

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Speaker 1: all of that, and then they have preparation sessions and

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Speaker 1: the amount varies between studies, but it's somewhere between four

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Speaker 1: and eight hours of contact time between the person to

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Speaker 1: get the psychedelic and their guides, like the people who

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Speaker 1: are going to be in the room with them. And

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Speaker 1: the most important thing there is really strong report development,

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Speaker 1: like people shouldn't be around strangers, you know, you want

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Speaker 1: to develop that trust and report to minimize the chances

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Speaker 1: of anxiety and particularly paranoia and panic. And there's also

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Speaker 1: discussion about what this could be like. It could be

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Speaker 1: like this, it could be like that, and there's basically

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Speaker 1: a laundry list of you name it. You know, you

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Speaker 1: can feel like you're dying. You could feel like your

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Speaker 1: heart's about to rip out of its chest. You know,

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Speaker 1: you go through all this, you also go over it's

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Speaker 1: safe deeprofile, like your heart won't rip out of your chest.

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Speaker 1: It's very but we're monitoring your blood pressure anyway, all

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Speaker 1: of that. You tell them no surprises, You tell them

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Speaker 1: about everything, and you get to know them and you

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Speaker 1: have these real big picture discussions about the person's life.

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Speaker 1: What was your childhood like, what are your relationships like,

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Speaker 1: what's your romantic life like? You know, what's your I

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Speaker 1: call it the big you know, the big picture questions,

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Speaker 1: whether it's religious or not, spiritual or not. What the

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Speaker 1: heck do you think the big picture of reality is?

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Speaker 1: Even if it's like, ah, who knows, you know whatever,

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Speaker 1: we'll you know, we'll chat about that, because oftentimes in

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Speaker 1: these sessions people do touch upon the big questions. However,

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Speaker 1: one orients towards them, and then someone goes into the session.

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Speaker 1: So they come here, show up it around eight in

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Speaker 1: the morning, eight to nine, answer a few questionnaires just

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Speaker 1: like ten minutes worth, check their blood pressure, and we

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Speaker 1: chat with them, make sure they're feeling okay, and then

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Speaker 1: we kind of have a somewhat of a ceremonial atmosphere

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Speaker 1: where we take it very seriously. We kind of hand

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Speaker 1: them the psilocybin pill and a chalice, and it depends

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Speaker 1: on the study and the study I run where we

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Speaker 1: help people quit smoking. We have them go over their

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Speaker 1: mantra or their mission statement for why they're quitting smoking,

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Speaker 1: like they're doing it for their health and whatever happens

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Speaker 1: happens to be. But we wish them well and they

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Speaker 1: take it with a glass of water. And then it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be anywhere between twenty minutes and an hour before

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Speaker 1: the effects start kicking in. So during that time we'll

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Speaker 1: we'll have discussion with them. There's art books in the

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Speaker 1: room for them to look through, and I should say

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Speaker 1: music is playing this whole time, and they're not playing DJ.

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Speaker 1: So it's the thing is, you don't want the person

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Speaker 1: to be having to make decisions during the whole time.

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Speaker 1: Your job is to be a baby. Trust let go

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Speaker 1: be open. We're taking care of you. And so when

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Speaker 1: they start to feel something, we invite them to lay

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Speaker 1: down on the couch. We put the eye shades on them.

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Speaker 1: There's a trick to that without tangling up the hair

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Speaker 1: and whatnot. So you kind of do that for them,

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Speaker 1: and you basically you tuck them in and you remind

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Speaker 1: them I'm here with you. And if the person feels anxious,

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Speaker 1: the most powerful thing can be just holding their hand.

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Speaker 1: And you've warned them about this in the prep sessions,

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Speaker 1: because you've got to be very mindful in medicine of

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Speaker 1: you know boundaries, you know, like hand is okay, shoulder

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Speaker 1: is okay. But we don't go past that. But if

423
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: someone has anxiety, we tell them. You know, it's like

424
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: Kate or Oliver, we're here with you. You're doing just fine.

425
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: This is perfectly normal. You're just feeling the psilocybin. You're

426
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: perfectly safe. Trust let go. And that's a powerful thing.

427
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 1: I've even seen it in sort of the bad Trip

428
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 1: tent setting at Burning Man, where even if you don't

429
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: know the person and don't have a rapport, just having

430
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: a calm presence can really turn things around. I have

431
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: a story about that with my brother once. I Love you, Oliver.

432
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: We were at an Aspen a place called Belly Up,

433
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: and I saw this guy and we were we were

434
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: we were just out having a drink and seeing a

435
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 1: band and there's this guy over by the bathroom and

436
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 1: he was just having the like a terrible trip. And

437
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: I knew it immediately, just because I've seen them so

438
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: many times. And I was like, oh, oh, I look

439
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,239
Speaker 1: at this guy, so I gotta go help him out.

440
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 1: And he's like, no, no, no, he did lean alone.

441
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I got to help this guy out.

442
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: I wanted to go home, so he wanted to go home.

443
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 1: So I go to this guy and I'm like, are

444
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: you okay? You know? And and he went, you do know?

445
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: And I and I could tell, I go, did you

446
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: take some LSD? And he said yes. I said what

447
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: liquid LSD? Did you take a lot of it? He

448
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: goes yeah, and We're like okay, and I took him.

449
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 1: I started talking him through it, telling him that it's

450
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: all good and fine. I was doing you know, I was.

451
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: I was trying to soothe him. And then he looked

452
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: at me and he goes and I had this white

453
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: fur hat on. I was an all white and I

454
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: had this white fur hat on and my hair was

455
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: all curly and he I thought you were an angel.

456
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: That's what he said, Halo. He said you're an angel.

457
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: And I was like, I've seen this and I said yes,

458
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: and you're gonna be fine. You are an Oliver. He

459
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: goes behind my shoulder and goes and I'm the Devil

460
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: and I was like Oliver and the guy freaked out.

461
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: I'm like, Oliver, Jesus, I just got this guy calmed down.

462
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: It was one of the great great So how long

463
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: we stick to your role, not Oliver's role. Yeah, yeah,

464
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: Oliver's not invited. Wow, he needed to be punished. He

465
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: took too much and he needs to know he did

466
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: a bad thing. Can you be addicted? Can you get

467
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: addicted to psilocybin and mushroom? So that's a great cannabis.

468
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: You should have mentioned it with the other things. So

469
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: you can't physically overdose, and you can't become addicted to

470
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: the classic psychedelic So that's true of LSD, of psilocybin,

471
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: mescaline DMT, which is in ayahuasca. You can't become addicted.

472
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: Now I'm using you know, I'll draw this the psychiatric

473
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: distinction there. You can abuse these and that just means

474
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: you can use in a stupid way. You know, like

475
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: a couple of teenagers go, you know, driving a car

476
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: when they're on you know, after eating a bunch of mushrooms, Like, okay,

477
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: they're abusing it. They're putting themselves and others at risk.

478
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: It's an extreme example, but addiction really is referring to

479
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: compulsive drug seeking. You know, no one is jonesing for

480
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: their next mushroom fix. Or their next acid fix. So yeah,

481
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: and we know that from every level, the way it

482
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: affects dopamine and the so called brain rewards center, the mesolymbic.

483
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: We know that from the large scale surveys from like

484
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: animal models like where rats could be trained to self

485
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: minister pretty much any drug that can be taken addictively

486
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: in people, you can train a rat to take it,

487
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: they'll typically want to stay the hell away from psychedelics. Right, Well,

488
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: actually it would be explain scientifically how it works mushrooms

489
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: or the classic psychedelics, Right, what happens, How does your

490
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: stomach process it, What happens to your brain? What is

491
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: the science behind it? Well, the really interesting part is

492
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: what happens in the brain, and we have far more

493
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: to learn than what we already know. What we've learned

494
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: a lot. So and the gut. One of the things

495
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: with psilocybin is that the psilocybin which is in mushrooms

496
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: breaks down to silosin. It's kind of a trivial thing,

497
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: but psilocybin is actually a pro drug. It breaks down

498
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: to the actual drug and the gut. The mushrooms actually

499
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: have silosin and psilocybin, but anyway, it's silosin by the

500
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: time it gets to the into the into the brain,

501
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: and in the brain it has an effect on serotonin

502
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: two A receptors. So every nearer transmission, you know, we

503
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: hear about serotonin and dopamine and all these things. You

504
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: neurons communicate like a a pitcher and a catcher. So

505
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: like someone's like throwing the ball and someone's catching the ball.

506
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,479
Speaker 1: One cell or neuron is here and the other ones here,

507
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: and the neurotransmitters go from one to the other. And

508
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: so normally there are neurons that release serotonin. They kind

509
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:18,719
Speaker 1: of hang out in this gap and they finally end

510
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: out at the other side. And the kind of the catcher,

511
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: you know, the post synaptic side receives the neurotransmitter they

512
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: catch the ball, and then that has some activity on

513
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: what that neuron does. It activates it. So the way

514
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: the classic psychedelics work is by mimicking serotonin, but not

515
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: a direct mimic. They do something slightly different on the

516
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: catcher side, so they activate the serotonin to a receptor

517
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: in a slightly different way than serotonin itself does. So

518
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: you have other drugs like MDMA, which is not a

519
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: classic psychedelic that works by kind of releasing a lot

520
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: of serotonin from the other side, from the picture side

521
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: of the picture, just throwing out balls like left and right,

522
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: and that's the way into the cinema. So these are

523
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: kind of the nerdy pharmacological differences, but the that but

524
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: even that, that sort of receptor activation level effect, that's

525
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: like the first domino in this incredibly complex Like you

526
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: ever see those demonstrations where there's this room full of

527
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: dominoes that like are knocked over bridges and then spin

528
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: things and all that. So it's like that, you know,

529
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: that's just that first domino, and then what happens after

530
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: that is what we're filling in a lot of pieces.

531
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: Probably one of the best areas that's emerged is the

532
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: effects on brain network dynamics. That's a fancy way of

533
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: saying how the different brain areas communicate with each other.

534
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: And so this is not necessarily about, oh, this area

535
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: is more active, this area is less active. This is

536
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,959
Speaker 1: more about what's the relationship between the activity in different areas.

537
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: Is there is synchronization of activity, which is an index

538
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: of probably communication. So what you see across the brain

539
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: is this essentially communication across brain areas that don't normally

540
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: communicate very much, and in some sort of local networks

541
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: areas that are close to each other that normally communicate

542
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: a lot, sometimes you see less communication there. So it's

543
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: like you think of a city and neighborhoods. All of

544
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: a sudden, you normally have most of your talk, your

545
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: communication with your neighbors, or at least back in the day,

546
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: that was the case with your neighbors, the folks in

547
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: your local neighborhood. Now we scrambled things up, and so

548
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: you're talking to those folks less frequently, and you're just

549
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,239
Speaker 1: randomly talking to people across town, across the city. So

550
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: it's almost like, well, what the Internet has done. Maybe

551
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: that's one of those Internet is psychedelic in a way.

552
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: You just kind of scramble things up, and so you

553
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: have this massive change in the way that the brain

554
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: talks to itself, which is probably and I'm feeling in

555
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: now I'm speculating a bit, but I think it's reasonable speculation.

556
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: That's probably why people have novel insights. They are thinking

557
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: their brain is processing information in a way that it

558
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: normally doesn't have the ability to. People are seeing things

559
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: from novel perspectives. Sometimes people will say that they've things

560
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: they've told themselves thousands of times, Like I've worked with

561
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: addictive people and people that are seriously struggling, even terminal

562
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: with cancer, and they've told themselves things like I'm the

563
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: one destroying my life, like you know, I'm letting this

564
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: thing destroy me or all I have to do is

565
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: is quit, like I'm not, you know, I don't have

566
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: to make this choice to keep smoking cigarettes. And they

567
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 1: can just they can tell themselves these things, and it's

568
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: it's it's like the verbalization is not new. You know,

569
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: they said those words a million times, but now they

570
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 1: like feel it in the It's the processing, right, the

571
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: processing becomes like this this intense understanding of yourself. Right,

572
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: are we expanding our minds? Is this an actual expansion

573
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: of our physical brain? Are we using parts of our

574
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: brain that normally in a sober day we do not?

575
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: So you know that terminology, I think there's something like that,

576
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,439
Speaker 1: but the you know, the responsible scientist in me wants

577
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: to kind of draw a line with like we can't

578
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: really say, like we really don't even know what the

579
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: mind is, right, we know about the brain, and then

580
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: it kind of gets more into philosophy in terms of

581
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: what do you even consider well consciousness. I mean, how

582
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: do you you know, quantify or what is consciousness? I

583
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: guess exactly, but I think we can say the mind

584
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: or consciousness if we want to use those terms are

585
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: radically different. Yes, and probably to go to speak loosely,

586
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 1: it's my caveat. You know, if they're expand expanded in

587
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: certain ways, they're probably contracted in other ways. Like your

588
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: ability to cross the street and do so successfully is

589
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: probably reduced. I mean, we know in a number of

590
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: like neurocognitive measures that these aren't performance enhancing. And so

591
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: you know, someone might be crossing the street and they

592
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: stop and they look at their hand and see this

593
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: unfolding miracle, and then they get run over by mac truck,

594
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: which is also a miracle, right as it's like, you know,

595
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 1: but you're still dead. But when I was when I

596
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,919
Speaker 1: was twenty two, at a truck stop somewhere in Nebraska,

597
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: and I walked into the into the big like the

598
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: convenience store, Yeah, the convenience store, and I took a

599
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: popsicle out and I said, oh to the guy, I said,

600
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: just one popsicle, and I thought, is it called a popsicle?

601
00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: And I turned to my egg's husband, I was like,

602
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: is it called a poxicle? And why unable to But

603
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: those experiences that people have, those profound experiences that you

604
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: have seen, you know, tested in a room clinically tested.

605
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: Once you come out of that, it can uh forever

606
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: change the way that you think and feel, potentially right

607
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 1: in your sober life. So it does have some sort

608
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: of value there, meaning you can if you're on the

609
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: other side, so to speak, when you come back to sobriety,

610
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: you're still retaining and life can change from these experiences. Correct, absolutely,

611
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: And that's the heart of the therapeutic use and the

612
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: idea is that no matter how you got there, the

613
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 1: brain is changed in the in this per found way,

614
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:08,280
Speaker 1: and the insights that people come come upon oftentimes are held.

615
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: So it's so valuable and true that that's what sticks.

616
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: Is there science to back that up? Is there? Is there? Like,

617
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: are there analytics to sort of show that we have

618
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: measured the brain and we have looked at the brain

619
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: before a trip, and then we've looked at the brain

620
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: during and then after, and has there been actual physical change?

621
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: That's that's at the at at the that's at the

622
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: edge right now. So we're doing some research. A number

623
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: of groups are doing research to really look at that.

624
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,479
Speaker 1: We know some things about what's happening to the brain

625
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: when someone's on the psychedelic We know behaviorally and clinically

626
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: in a number of ways, under the right conditions that

627
00:38:53,880 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 1: people have improvements less depressed, less addicted, less anxiety. But

628
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,720
Speaker 1: what we don't know for sure is what has changed,

629
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: if anything, and presumably there's something what has changed in

630
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: the brain that corresponds with that behavioral clinical improvement. Sakara Ali,

631
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 1: we know this, We love this, We know our scar.

632
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 1: Everyone should, everyone who listens should know how obsessed we

633
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 1: are with Sacara. And this is a good time to

634
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:33,160
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635
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636
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637
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638
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639
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640
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641
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643
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644
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645
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646
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647
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648
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669
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Speaker 1: sibling to get fifty dollars off your first purchase of

708
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: one hundred dollars or more. Which psychedelic, whether it be

709
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 1: the classic or MDMA work academine world, Which grouping are

710
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: you guys seeing the most effective or being is the

711
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: most effective in terms of any kind of therapeutic use, Right, So,

712
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: the two big standouts are psilocybin and MDMA. I've worked

713
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: a lot with psilocybin, I haven't worked directly with with MDMA,

714
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: I would like to, and i'd am probably going to

715
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: be starting some work with lsds soon. In terms of

716
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 1: the the state of the science right now, psilocybin and MDMA,

717
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: they're the MDMA for PTSD and then psilocybin for depression

718
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: and the treatment of addiction. Those look very promising and

719
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 1: they're about the same level of of science. You know,

720
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: in what capacity is it microdosing? Is it very specific?

721
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: So yeah, we know there have only been a few

722
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: studies on micro dosing. Micro dosing is very fascinating, but

723
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 1: there's very little research. And you know, it's funny because

724
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: I see all the time folks will say, oh yeah,

725
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: all this research with micro dosing that's gone on at

726
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins and other places, and you're like, no, no, no,

727
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 1: these are heroic doses. These aren't even normal recreational doses.

728
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 1: Most And I've run several studies with where we want

729
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: the person that has used a lot of psychedelics, like

730
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: the Connoisseur study, where they could say, oh, yeah, this

731
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 1: is like the time I took two CB on top

732
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: of like smoking DMT. But sometimes those folks will say, like, wow,

733
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: you guys aren't screwing around. That's the most powerful psychedelic

734
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: they've ever had, because we do use a high dose

735
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: of psilocybin. You know, mushrooms vary in their potency, but

736
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 1: the average, based on content analysis, what we're giving is

737
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: about equivalent to somewhere between an a thousand and a

738
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: quarter ounce of Silosophy q bensis mushrooms that's the most

739
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: common type in the US. These that's lot. Yeah, like

740
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,399
Speaker 1: a lot of folks will split an ah ounce two

741
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: or three ways, and you know, go to a concert

742
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,320
Speaker 1: or even hang out in their house and want to

743
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 1: stay away. This is like almost a quarter ounce of mushrooms.

744
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,479
Speaker 1: This is most folks that know psychedelics say you don't

745
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 1: go in public like this is. This is not a

746
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: museum dose. This is you strap yourself down in your house.

747
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 1: Yeah wow, Yeah. I always felt like I'd never understood

748
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: the recreational use of mushrooms. For me, it was an

749
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: actual experience, you know, yeah, self exploration like yeah, and

750
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 1: in fact, the it does seem clinically that that's where

751
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: most of the interesting content is at. One of the

752
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 1: reasons for the using the eye shades in the sessions

753
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 1: is that, you know, the first level sort of perceptual

754
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 1: the colors can be absolutely fascinating, and the person will

755
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: have some time to experience that, but if you you

756
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 1: can kind of get stuck there and by kind of

757
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: directing the attention inward to the self, that's where some

758
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 1: of the more profound effects, like the insights into self,

759
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 1: into someone's history, about their relationships, and then the even

760
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: more profound stuff that transcendental type experiences. What what what

761
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: is the how? How was the duration of the experience

762
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: five to six hours Matt, it sounds like what you're

763
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 1: doing because I atasca, you're just down and out. I mean,

764
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: you know, you you you you're you're laid out. And

765
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 1: that to me was felt more of what my experience

766
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: was with ayahuasca, where first of all the prep sessions

767
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 1: and then you know, having to really let go and

768
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 1: when you feel it coming on, it's it's it's so

769
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: strong and as you sort of let it take over.

770
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: You know, it's a very different experience than say, you know,

771
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: doing some handful of mushrooms. Well not maybe a handful

772
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:56,839
Speaker 1: of mushrooms will dift you, but like you know, doing

773
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: a cap of a mushroomer stem or something. You know,

774
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,479
Speaker 1: like there there's no choice but to fully surrender. Yeah,

775
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:04,399
Speaker 1: you have to, like you're not gonna hold your shit

776
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 1: during it and like yeah, try to like do your

777
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: taxes or just no, no, I've never done that before.

778
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: Where it's like I love the way you put it.

779
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 1: You don't have any choice but to surrender because in

780
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: our normal lives and our sober lives, we have we

781
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: have that choice to hold on and squeeze with with

782
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: something like this, when you go that far, you don't

783
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,399
Speaker 1: have a choice. You have to in order to sort

784
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 1: of you know, let go and have this, have have

785
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: an experience, you know, I mean, have you encountered a

786
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: lot of patients who will not let go and are

787
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: just freaking the fuck out. Yeah? Yeah, and so you

788
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 1: don't have to let go. But it's sort of like

789
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: it nudges it in that direction and a lot and

790
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: sometimes people come out of it and say it's like

791
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,720
Speaker 1: they finally got it. It It was like quick BUYO feedback.

792
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: Oh when I let go, that's when it became easy

793
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,240
Speaker 1: and the most profound kind of big picture things. And gosh,

794
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 1: I really remember so many of our fifty one cancer

795
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: patients saying this that. But you see it in all

796
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: the studies. People see that as this lesson as a

797
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: microcosm of life itself, and it's you know, it's one

798
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: of these things. It's easier said than done. I wish

799
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: I did it, you know, we all do, you know,

800
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: on a more day to day moment my basis. But

801
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 1: the more you can not fight what you're given, you know,

802
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: like operate within the range that you can operate. I mean,

803
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: it's like the serenity prayer, like have the wisdom to

804
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,479
Speaker 1: you know, know what you basically have no control over

805
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 1: and just let go. And the story and this idea

806
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: that orienting towards like the the you know, having the

807
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: obsessive control over things that you cannot control. You know

808
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: you're never gonna win, You're never gonna win. And and

809
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: yet people drawing that kind of like, oh, that's that's

810
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: like life. You know, you just have to accept it,

811
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: Like I mean, we're gonna face hellish things like death

812
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: and the death of loved ones and all of this horror.

813
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's cancer. Do you do when you talk

814
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: about cancer patients too? This is about them managing their

815
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: the fear of death pretty much. It's not about cancer itself.

816
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 1: It's in correct me if I'm wrong. It's more about that,

817
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,359
Speaker 1: that's right, the fear of death and terminal patients who

818
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 1: are just not living the best lives, even if they

819
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 1: only have a year or two left. It's getting into

820
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: that place of acceptance to then sort of live out

821
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 1: the rest of their days in some sort of harmony.

822
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: I mean, is that the idea. It's exactly the idea.

823
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: And we included people who were both you know, sort

824
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: of terminal and people who you know, their prognosis was

825
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: serious but they could live you know, a decade or

826
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 1: two long or more. And that's the real insidious thing

827
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: about cancer. Man. It's like you could be doing fine

828
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, nowhere it's metastasized everywhere

829
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 1: and out of nowhere. You can be told you've got

830
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 1: a month, and it's just like, I mean, compared to

831
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: other illnesses where at least, like with heart disease and

832
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: the things you have, the metrics are pretty you have

833
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 1: a pretty good idea if you're on the right path,

834
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,240
Speaker 1: and just cancer just come back out of nowhere, and

835
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: it really screws with people so strongly, and so you

836
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: had people that were just suffering and not I mean

837
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: so often folks are like I could be playing with

838
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 1: my grandkids, I could be planning for vacations, and they

839
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: won't do any of this because they are so just

840
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: like bunched up with this obsession over death. Well scared,

841
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 1: they're just so scared. Yeah, I have a question. I

842
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: think I can only draw from my own personal experiences.

843
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 1: You're talking about therapeutic uses for these things, and I

844
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:06,879
Speaker 1: find that sometimes the stigma that becomes attached to this

845
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 1: is because people go and become obsessed and have to

846
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: sort of constantly get to this place of enlightenment and

847
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 1: it and then I and then I'm looking, I'm like, oh, no,

848
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: you're you're you're just abusing point right. But but but

849
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 1: I think it happens quite a bit. You know, Well

850
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: there's an escape aspect, which then from a psychological standpoint,

851
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 1: I guess you just have to look at that. I mean,

852
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 1: if you're doing mushrooms every day to escape your normal

853
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: life and to live in an alternative universe, I mean

854
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: that can't be like a healthy thing. Well, are people

855
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 1: who smoke weed all day every day and say that

856
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:50,399
Speaker 1: it's fine because it's medicine. It's fine because you're abusing it.

857
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:52,439
Speaker 1: It's like it's like if I was drinking all day.

858
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: It's not the same as drinking all day. But but

859
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: but the effects of it can be. Anything that you

860
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 1: do too much of is going to And this, I

861
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: guess is a good question. If you are doing too

862
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: much of something, doesn't it affect your cognitive ability, your

863
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 1: day to day like ability, like your your your actually

864
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 1: the clarity of being able to function and everyday life

865
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: like if someone is smoking a ton of weed all

866
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: day long, what who would do that all right, I

867
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: guess I guess the question is can it can it

868
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: permanently screw up your brain if you're abusing psilocybin or

869
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 1: cannabis to the point of l complacency or LSD. I mean,

870
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,919
Speaker 1: these are complex questions and they have to do There's

871
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: so many factors like vulnerability and age and the ones

872
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: overall environment. So I've got to get in all of

873
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 1: those caveats. You know, there are heavier users of any

874
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 1: drug you name it, that you know it has minimal

875
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,240
Speaker 1: effect on their functioning, and others where even a lesser

876
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 1: amount totally tanks them and you have different things going on,

877
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 1: like you know, cannabis. It's uh, yeah, there are so

878
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: many concerns that are there, for example, with alcohol, that

879
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 1: are not going to be there, you know, like you're

880
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 1: not gonna kill your liver, for example. But it's more

881
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 1: in the you know, the relevant questions of be in

882
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 1: terms of your functioning. You know, when you're on it,

883
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: you're going to have lower You're going to have impaired

884
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: divided attention abilities in other words, and lesser ability to

885
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: stay on top of multiple tasks at the same time.

886
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: It's kind of like why in driving simulators. You know,

887
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,320
Speaker 1: in a simple situation, people actually there's not much effect

888
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 1: on their reaction time, but people actually slow down more

889
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 1: than they need to, so they actually overcompensate, which is

890
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 1: the classic thing like keeping chilling going like twenty miles anear, Yeah,

891
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 1: on the interstate. But but where you that's not where

892
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 1: the problem is. Where the problem is where something unexpected happens,

893
00:54:57,360 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: because in you know, someone's like z kind of in

894
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 1: the zone and they're zoned out and all of a sudden, oh,

895
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: that car is weaving from the other lane, and it's like,

896
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: are you going to react as quickly as you need to?

897
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 1: And that's where you see some and that's where there

898
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: is some impairment with cannabis and driving. Nowhere near where

899
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 1: you get with high dose alcohol, right of course. But

900
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 1: I think we also have to take into account the

901
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,320
Speaker 1: body chemistry, because we're all going to react to these

902
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:27,720
Speaker 1: different cannabinoids and psilocybin differently, just based on our body

903
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 1: can tolerance and tolerance. I mean, look at Seth Rogan.

904
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 1: Seth rogen is like, you know, he smokes weed every

905
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 1: single day, but as a creator, he creates, he creates,

906
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 1: that's his that's his happy play. You don't even know.

907
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 1: I did Dawson's Creak with him, so we know each other,

908
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: but I've heard him. So there's incredible tolerance to the

909
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: to these things. I think the relevant questions here. A

910
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 1: lot of it's played up too much on drugs and like,

911
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: you know, brain damage and whatnot. You know, brain damage

912
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 1: isn't good. But I think the more relevant quite relate

913
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 1: to clinical functioning. You know, like a lot of it

914
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: is made of cocaine, and no one's encouraging I mean,

915
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: by the way, I'm not encouraging use of anything, including psychedelics,

916
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: but no one's certainly encouraging cocaine use. And you know,

917
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 1: you get a lot of stuff and same with methamphetamine

918
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: about potential brain damage and all of this, and it's

919
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: like yeah, but overall the big picture, those effects, it's

920
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: really the it's really the role that it plays in

921
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 1: one's life. You have this powerful reinforcer taken over and

922
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 1: kind of warping one's life. Like the attention that's given

923
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,399
Speaker 1: to this to the exclusion of other things, Like that's

924
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: far more relevant than say, I don't know, knocking your

925
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 1: IQ down, Like two theoretical points. I mean, you name

926
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 1: the drug there are plenty of really smart high IQ

927
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 1: people that have used it, and you can have a

928
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,839
Speaker 1: lot of impairment that has nothing to do with cognition.

929
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,359
Speaker 1: So I think the cognitive thing is overplayed in terms

930
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,360
Speaker 1: of the long term effects of drugs. But but I

931
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 1: think you going back to Kate's original question, like there

932
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 1: are I'm more concerned with the heavy use of psychedelics

933
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 1: of people getting into like exast and this is a

934
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:12,839
Speaker 1: big unknown, but I think there's something there like exacerbating

935
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 1: personality disorders, like if someone's on the borderline spectrum, the

936
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 1: narcissist spectrum, like if they're really full of themselves and

937
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: they're really addicted to drama, like they could really go

938
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 1: off the rails with psychedelics really, And I think if

939
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 1: you know enough people you know they're into psychedelics. There

940
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 1: are definitely people of that type that and if you

941
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: ask the people around them, they're not necessarily saying this

942
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 1: person is better because of all this. But explain off

943
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 1: the rails though. When you're saying off the rails, like

944
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 1: say a diagnosed narcissists, you know it takes a bunch

945
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 1: of mushrooms when they go off the rails because they

946
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 1: seek drama. What does that mean? Does that mean a

947
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 1: permanent off the rails, meaning something can actually happen to

948
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 1: where now there's a permanence to a new personality. Well,

949
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 1: it would probably exacerbate it. I mean, you're all, a

950
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 1: narcissistic personality does coming obviously you are the expert, but

951
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong. But a narcissistic personality disorder

952
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 1: is untreatable according to I mean, some thing can work

953
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 1: with narcissists, but it's an untreatable personality disorder. So what

954
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 1: it would probably do is exacerbate it would make it

955
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: would make it just more intense and like, you know,

956
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,479
Speaker 1: it's like, and this has been talked about in terms

957
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 1: of you know, beyond psyched. It's how people hold mystical

958
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: experiences in the various you know, religious and other traditions

959
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: where it's like you basically have this ultimately this inexplicable

960
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: thing that's really hard to hold, like what is the

961
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,479
Speaker 1: nature someone can come out of the one of these

962
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 1: experiences saying like, you know, well, I think Ramdas put

963
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 1: it in an interesting way in the book be Here

964
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 1: Now it's the the Yeah, plenty people come out of

965
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 1: psychedelic experience is recognizing that they're God or come out

966
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: of mystical experiences saying, oh, they recognize they're part of God.

967
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 1: But the difference between a crazy person and the person

968
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 1: is not crazy is the same person recognizes that everyone

969
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 1: else is God as well. So I'm not trying to

970
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 1: be religious or you know, advocate for anybody, but just

971
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: as one way of expressing it, like the holding of

972
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: that thing like is one can come out of a

973
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 1: psychedelic experience realizing the depth of consciousness, if you will,

974
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 1: or of their own mind is so absolutely overwhelming and

975
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 1: beyond anything that they ever thought was possible. If one

976
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 1: comes out and then holds that as something special about

977
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 1: them that they're not extrapolating to other human beings, that's

978
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 1: probably And again I'm speculating here because we're kind of

979
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 1: beyond the frontier, but my based educated speculation based on

980
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 1: what I've seen, is I think people can get in

981
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 1: that terrain where they're failing to hold this thing, this

982
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: this mysterious experience in a balanced way, and they can

983
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 1: kind of go off the rails. How would that affect

984
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 1: a borderline personality? Yeah, so someone I mean I think

985
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: a borderline as being you know, sort of this someone

986
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 1: who is really sucked into their own drama. They're addicted

987
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 1: to their own drama, and gosh, like psychedelics can come

988
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 1: with a lot of drama. I mean, you know, they

989
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: someone can create a narrative where they had an experience

990
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 1: that was beyond what mere mortals are are capable of.

991
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: They can be kind of sucked into their own I mean,

992
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 1: they can basically go to the messianic route. Right. I

993
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 1: had the vision, you know, I had the vision about

994
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 1: the the you name it, like the ending of the world,

995
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: about the deciphering of it's so wild code because as

996
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 1: I'm hearing you, like, I've never I've never heard that before.

997
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 1: But then I have people that I know that have

998
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 1: had that are like that, that have had experiences and

999
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 1: come out of it, and it's like they realize they

1000
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:23,440
Speaker 1: have some like purpose. It's Billy Crudup in the almost

1001
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 1: famous It's true Golden Golden God. Yeah that was that

1002
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 1: was LSD. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't

1003
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 1: have our sessions on the rooftop. That's no pools to

1004
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:46,439
Speaker 1: jump into. So is the is the room itself sort

1005
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 1: of tranquil? You know that you run that you that

1006
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 1: these patients are in and do they do they get

1007
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:55,040
Speaker 1: up and walk around and trip out. I mean, I'm

1008
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 1: so curious. I mean, you must deal with so many

1009
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 1: I guess I don't know bad trips, and then you

1010
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 1: can sort of talk them off ledges. But I mean,

1011
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 1: how how is that? Number? One? And then second part

1012
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: is does everyone benefit from it? You know, in the

1013
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 1: studies that you've done, have you had a lot of

1014
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 1: people who said, well, that was just fucked up. That

1015
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 1: just fucked my brain up. I don't ever want to

1016
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 1: go back to that place again. The room is basically

1017
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 1: really nice. It doesn't look like a research lab. You know,

1018
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 1: the blood pressure machine is stuck under an end table

1019
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 1: and it sort of hidden. But it looks like you know,

1020
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 1: pash yoga studio. I mean, it's like beautiful artwork, you know,

1021
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:38,840
Speaker 1: rug everything, nice furniture, and we do about a third

1022
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 1: of the at the high to high stokes we use,

1023
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 1: which is the dose I described before. It's about thirty

1024
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 1: milligrams of pure psilocybin body weight adjusted. About a third

1025
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: of the people will have an experience that I call

1026
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 1: a challenging experience. And I use that word instead of

1027
01:02:54,520 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 1: bad trip because in this context, one experience it's difficult,

1028
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 1: isn't necessarily a bad one. In fact, a lot of people,

1029
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 1: most people who have a challenging experience, will say that

1030
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 1: it was an incredible learning experience that they valued in retrospect.

1031
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:15,439
Speaker 1: Now not everyone is in that category. Some people will

1032
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: say I would never want to do that again, and

1033
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 1: I don't think I've benefited from it. But we haven't

1034
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: had anyone out of hundreds of volunteers say that they've

1035
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:30,360
Speaker 1: been harmed long term because of it. So, you know,

1036
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 1: I think that's that's a credit to our you know,

1037
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 1: screening people. And and something I should get in here

1038
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 1: is that we do think that people coming in with

1039
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 1: a schizophrenia type disorder or a recognizable predisposition to a

1040
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 1: psychotic disorder like schizophrenia, those are the cases of people

1041
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: that supposedly trip and never come back. I mean, that's

1042
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 1: kind of loose wording, but we have these those stories.

1043
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 1: I always think of Sid Barrett, the first singer of

1044
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:01,320
Speaker 1: Pink Floyd. He showed all this sun of you know,

1045
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 1: before you know, he was using a lot of LSD,

1046
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:07,320
Speaker 1: and a lot of times people explore drugs at the

1047
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 1: time of the typical first break of schizophrenia, but it

1048
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:14,120
Speaker 1: seems pretty credible that people can be worsened who have

1049
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:18,440
Speaker 1: that predisposition. So they're screening for that. There's the preparation,

1050
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 1: there's the monitoring. But could stillocybin or an LSD help

1051
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 1: someone who might be borderlined or who might be bipolar

1052
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 1: if given different dosage, you know, I mean, can you

1053
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 1: bring I wonder if you could bring anyone back through

1054
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:38,320
Speaker 1: a psychedelic So that's you know, I don't want to say,

1055
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 1: and some people will say these should never be given

1056
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 1: to people with psychosis, and so you know, I that's

1057
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 1: not the thing we should be looking at now. If

1058
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:52,400
Speaker 1: that is ever done, that needs to be even more

1059
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 1: like we're always cautious, but probably after a lot more

1060
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 1: is learned with you know, healthier pop relations and to

1061
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: proceed super cautiously because it does seem clear that you know,

1062
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:12,160
Speaker 1: people can from the clinical picture that people with that,

1063
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:16,480
Speaker 1: particularly when we're talking about mania as in bipolar or

1064
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 1: psychotic disorders, that it could exacerbate illness. Now that said,

1065
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 1: you know, we're seeing improvements and depression in patients, but

1066
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 1: I've done some survey research where some people under not

1067
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:33,600
Speaker 1: ideal settings, their depression is worsened. So that's just an

1068
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:35,920
Speaker 1: example that I can think, as you were alluding to

1069
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:38,160
Speaker 1: Oliver at somebody, you know, the thing that causes an

1070
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 1: effect in one direction could theoretically, if you tinker it

1071
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 1: in a different way, maybe dose dependent, maybe depend on

1072
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 1: other factors, you can push in the other direction. So

1073
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:51,960
Speaker 1: scientifically it's possible, but it's we just want to be

1074
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:54,480
Speaker 1: very cautious and it's probably we probably need to learn

1075
01:05:54,480 --> 01:06:01,440
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1080
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1081
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1082
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1090
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1093
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1094
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1095
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1096
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1097
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1098
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1100
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:30,920
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1101
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 1: That's Joinhney dot com slash sibling. What's the difference between

1102
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 1: the pill and the in an actual mushroom? As far

1103
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 1: as we know, none, although there could theoretically be effect,

1104
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:52,520
Speaker 1: so I would say just I mean, no one has

1105
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:57,480
Speaker 1: compared head to head psilocybin at when you adjust for

1106
01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:01,720
Speaker 1: dose compared to mushrooms. They're the slocin. As I explained earlier,

1107
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:04,480
Speaker 1: the psilocybin and the silosin that are present the mushroom

1108
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 1: all break down to psilocybin, so that is likely not

1109
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:09,920
Speaker 1: going to contribute to any difference. You do have some

1110
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:15,080
Speaker 1: other trip to means, like biosysteine nor bosysteine that theoretically

1111
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:19,280
Speaker 1: could add to the coloring of the effect, so to speak,

1112
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:24,320
Speaker 1: like with cannabis, you know, cannabdal and other cannabinoids in

1113
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:27,960
Speaker 1: addition to THHC. I think there's a more credible case

1114
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:33,519
Speaker 1: that that's going on with cannabis. It's we need the research.

1115
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:37,160
Speaker 1: You know, these other things aren't there in very high amounts,

1116
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 1: so we should test these. It's plausible, but I think

1117
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:45,840
Speaker 1: most my bets are It's probably about the same thing

1118
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:49,920
Speaker 1: as a researcher, as this is clearly your passion. You know,

1119
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:52,840
Speaker 1: what are you looking for? What are your hopes in

1120
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 1: all of this? My biggest hope, really beyond even the

1121
01:08:56,280 --> 01:09:00,960
Speaker 1: treatment of disorders, is that these can be tools to

1122
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:06,639
Speaker 1: I mean guess I could go big here, like and

1123
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:08,639
Speaker 1: I'm not holding my breath for it, but I mean,

1124
01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 1: could they be used as tools to to to I

1125
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:17,040
Speaker 1: don't address the hard problem of consciousness, like what ultimately

1126
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:21,519
Speaker 1: is the nature of subjectivity? And how does this hunk

1127
01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:25,080
Speaker 1: of meat all of a sudden at some level of complexity,

1128
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 1: there's an inside, there's an experience that is has a

1129
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:36,080
Speaker 1: first person experience of everything else. I don't know that

1130
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 1: that's ever going to be possible. That might be more

1131
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 1: of a philosophical question than an empirical question, but I

1132
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 1: think certainly in terms of what is realistic is using

1133
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:51,439
Speaker 1: these psilocybin and other psychedelics, And we have hundreds of

1134
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:55,200
Speaker 1: psychedelics to explore. To be clear, it's not just psilocybin,

1135
01:09:56,080 --> 01:09:57,800
Speaker 1: and I think to get the full picture you really

1136
01:09:57,840 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 1: need a lot of probe the brain in different ways.

1137
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 1: So I mean, there's tons of work to be done.

1138
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 1: But to use these as tools to understand the nature

1139
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 1: of the mind, like how even if you're not if

1140
01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:11,080
Speaker 1: it's not the so called hard problem of consciousness that

1141
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:18,200
Speaker 1: we're talking about, just understanding how biology is translated into

1142
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:22,639
Speaker 1: behavior and mental function. I think these are incredibly powerful tools,

1143
01:10:23,200 --> 01:10:26,840
Speaker 1: and so I think the potential to transform psychiatry, that

1144
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:30,719
Speaker 1: is to say, help people with disorders is a game changer.

1145
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 1: But even bigger than that is just you know, really

1146
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:36,920
Speaker 1: understanding the nature of the mind. You can say it

1147
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:41,519
Speaker 1: in different ways, but that's the that's the real interest here. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1148
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:45,439
Speaker 1: it's it's really amazing. I mean, I I want to

1149
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:47,920
Speaker 1: a question going back to sort of the analytics okay

1150
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:52,680
Speaker 1: or sorry, not the analytics, the science. How when you

1151
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:56,559
Speaker 1: were talking about the synapses and the picture and the catcher,

1152
01:10:56,800 --> 01:11:01,400
Speaker 1: how different is that from like an sr I from

1153
01:11:01,880 --> 01:11:06,720
Speaker 1: from from antidepressants, Because essentially what it sounds like is

1154
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 1: we're dealing with serotonin. You know, we're dealing with some

1155
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:13,400
Speaker 1: of the same qualities here. From a science standpoint, what

1156
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:16,000
Speaker 1: is how is how is like taking you know, a

1157
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:24,080
Speaker 1: selexa different from taking some mushrooms. So the the typical

1158
01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:29,760
Speaker 1: antidepressants release a lot of they they block the reuptake

1159
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:34,960
Speaker 1: of serotonin so that there is more serotonin hanging out.

1160
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:38,360
Speaker 1: It's like in the picture and catcher analogy, there's a

1161
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:41,880
Speaker 1: bunch of balls hanging out between the pitcher and the catcher,

1162
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:46,360
Speaker 1: and so it increases the amount of serotonin between those

1163
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 1: two those two ends, and that has a more that's

1164
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,000
Speaker 1: a more broad based effect that's going to have effects

1165
01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:58,280
Speaker 1: on different serotonin receptors. The classic psychedelics are more specific

1166
01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:03,640
Speaker 1: in that that they they are are fitting into the

1167
01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:09,879
Speaker 1: catcher's glove at only a specific type of serotonin receptor,

1168
01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 1: the serotonin two A receptor. And there's a lot that

1169
01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:15,440
Speaker 1: we need to learn about what the heck that serotonin

1170
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:19,479
Speaker 1: two A receptor, like what that does in the healthy person.

1171
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:21,280
Speaker 1: So kind of like what I was saying before, like

1172
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:23,840
Speaker 1: the most interesting stuff is not even like what psychedelics do,

1173
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:27,400
Speaker 1: it's like what can they use like serotunin two A,

1174
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:31,000
Speaker 1: like whatever psychedelcs do, Like it's something that the human

1175
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:35,080
Speaker 1: animal can do, you know. And one of the fascinating

1176
01:12:35,120 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 1: things is the so called mystical transcendental states that have

1177
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:42,120
Speaker 1: been recorded throughout human history. It's extremely plausible that there's

1178
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:46,719
Speaker 1: a biology going on that's a lot like maybe very

1179
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:50,440
Speaker 1: closely related to what we're seeing and with psychedelic administration.

1180
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:55,479
Speaker 1: So what are those serotonin two A receptors for in

1181
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:57,840
Speaker 1: the brain? We barely know. We know that they are

1182
01:12:58,000 --> 01:13:02,439
Speaker 1: major computational units in the brain. They probably have a

1183
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:07,519
Speaker 1: very strong role in regulating what we call consciousness or

1184
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:13,640
Speaker 1: subjective experience. So yeah, yeah, there's it's this is in

1185
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:15,599
Speaker 1: the area where we have so much more to learn.

1186
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:18,360
Speaker 1: I would love to do one of those sessions. Oh

1187
01:13:18,439 --> 01:13:21,400
Speaker 1: me too. It's like right up my alley, like a

1188
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:25,120
Speaker 1: real like intensive do a quarter of mushrooms and with

1189
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 1: with a doctor nearby. I mean, does it get better

1190
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:31,479
Speaker 1: than that? When it's best done, is where someone could

1191
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:33,960
Speaker 1: totally let go at every level. And that's why I

1192
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 1: kind of tell participants it's like a even at them,

1193
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:39,439
Speaker 1: even though it is for most people unless you have

1194
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:43,360
Speaker 1: a very severe susceptibility like high Like one of the

1195
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:46,000
Speaker 1: few people that has ever died after mushrooms was a

1196
01:13:46,040 --> 01:13:50,080
Speaker 1: person a heart transplant patient. You know, don't take mushrooms

1197
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:55,200
Speaker 1: if you had a heart transport, right. But nonetheless, even

1198
01:13:56,000 --> 01:14:00,719
Speaker 1: after the screening and end with it being you robustly

1199
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:03,920
Speaker 1: safe at the bodily level, nonetheless, we're taking the blood

1200
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:06,679
Speaker 1: pressure regularly. If it did go up a certain level,

1201
01:14:06,720 --> 01:14:09,799
Speaker 1: we'd give them a little bit of nitriglistener under the tongue,

1202
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:12,719
Speaker 1: which would knock the blood pressure down. No big deal,

1203
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:14,880
Speaker 1: you know, we have all these left. And then at

1204
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:18,400
Speaker 1: the inner personal level, you're never left alone. There's a

1205
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:23,040
Speaker 1: human being there who's trained, you know, who knows how

1206
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:25,960
Speaker 1: to respond. Is there an anti trip like a drug

1207
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:29,320
Speaker 1: where it's like here you go, take this, you're sober now, Yeah,

1208
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:33,080
Speaker 1: like the psychedelic narcan. Basically there is and it's not

1209
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:38,800
Speaker 1: Basically it's not available for clinical use. The one that

1210
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:41,760
Speaker 1: directly goes into the receptor and could theoretically knock it

1211
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:45,360
Speaker 1: out of the receptor like Narcan does with opioids, it's

1212
01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:48,920
Speaker 1: not approved for clinical use. What works really well is

1213
01:14:49,040 --> 01:14:52,920
Speaker 1: just a high dose of valuum. It's not as specific

1214
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:56,280
Speaker 1: as something like an antidote or a Narcan type drug,

1215
01:14:56,640 --> 01:14:59,559
Speaker 1: but it works really well. In fact, that's what is

1216
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:01,519
Speaker 1: often what will be given or a drug like that,

1217
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:03,920
Speaker 1: another bends at azepine will be given in the in

1218
01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 1: the er. But in fact we've had to do that

1219
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:09,360
Speaker 1: very few times out of hundreds of participants. The best

1220
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:12,559
Speaker 1: recipe is just hold their hand and say I'm with you.

1221
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:15,839
Speaker 1: You're gonna be okay. I I find that it's probably

1222
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:18,760
Speaker 1: just so liberating to have that kind of security in

1223
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 1: a in an experience like that like that, just because

1224
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:26,680
Speaker 1: I you know, letting go is it's the ultimate, isn't it.

1225
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:29,400
Speaker 1: That's that's that's everything we're trying to do, you know,

1226
01:15:31,360 --> 01:15:34,840
Speaker 1: And even at the legal level, right you know, like

1227
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:37,040
Speaker 1: just it's like, in this setting, it's not even in

1228
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:39,519
Speaker 1: the legal drug it is an approved use of a

1229
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:42,840
Speaker 1: scheduled drug. You know, like the DEA is on board

1230
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:45,120
Speaker 1: and there's one hundred percent approved of what's going on here.

1231
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:48,559
Speaker 1: It's like it's extreme. It's like at every possible level

1232
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:52,040
Speaker 1: when you're having an experience that can increase the possibility

1233
01:15:52,040 --> 01:15:54,720
Speaker 1: of paranoia. It's like, even if one thinks they're in

1234
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:57,680
Speaker 1: a pretty safe situation, you're like, oh man, what if

1235
01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:00,519
Speaker 1: the neighbor's here, what if like yeah, what if the

1236
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:04,040
Speaker 1: cops come? Vargie. Even at that level, it's like boom.

1237
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:08,519
Speaker 1: You know, you can totally let go at this fundamental level,

1238
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:12,200
Speaker 1: it's amazing, But it's Kate's mc kay. You're right. I mean,

1239
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 1: essentially what we're all trying to do in our daily

1240
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:18,280
Speaker 1: lives is just let go, let go of the stresses,

1241
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:21,080
Speaker 1: let go of the sort of some of the response

1242
01:16:21,160 --> 01:16:25,000
Speaker 1: not not not actual responsibilities, but let go of just

1243
01:16:25,200 --> 01:16:28,439
Speaker 1: the pressures of life, which just makes every day so

1244
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:34,479
Speaker 1: much better. Well, that's what we're trying to do through psychology.

1245
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:38,000
Speaker 1: Every time you go that deep and internal, always everything

1246
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:41,360
Speaker 1: boils down to mortality. The fear of death is at

1247
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:46,360
Speaker 1: the center of all of all, all of it. I mean,

1248
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:49,640
Speaker 1: that's how that's how I that's that's how I see it.

1249
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:51,880
Speaker 1: I mean I could be totally wrong, but when you

1250
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:56,200
Speaker 1: can actually like let go and and open open up

1251
01:16:56,439 --> 01:16:59,559
Speaker 1: like that, it's just all of that fear goes away

1252
01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:03,559
Speaker 1: because you're you're connected to something that's so much bigger

1253
01:17:04,360 --> 01:17:08,519
Speaker 1: than just this sort of like you said, you called

1254
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:12,000
Speaker 1: it the vastness or consciousness, you know, for lack of

1255
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:14,920
Speaker 1: I guess have a better of a more scientific term.

1256
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:17,880
Speaker 1: You know. The simplest form of learning that even you

1257
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:21,840
Speaker 1: know single cellular organism exhibit is called habituations basically getting

1258
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:25,519
Speaker 1: used to stuff. Yeah, you know, like you're you don't

1259
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:28,800
Speaker 1: respond to things. We can't respond to the world as

1260
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:32,560
Speaker 1: it's new new, and that's kind of the biggest we

1261
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:36,360
Speaker 1: and as we get older as adult humans, we basically

1262
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:39,120
Speaker 1: jump through life from heuristic to heuristic. This is the

1263
01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:43,719
Speaker 1: basis of prejudice and biases, and it's there's bad sides

1264
01:17:43,720 --> 01:17:46,120
Speaker 1: and good sides. You couldn't cross the street unless you

1265
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:50,599
Speaker 1: relied on biases, like you're just following these simple heuristic rules.

1266
01:17:51,240 --> 01:17:54,559
Speaker 1: Like again, you'd be crossing the street, like staring into

1267
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:57,600
Speaker 1: the unfolding miracle that is your hand and you'd be

1268
01:17:57,680 --> 01:18:00,840
Speaker 1: run over by a truck. Well, like you have to,

1269
01:18:01,880 --> 01:18:05,840
Speaker 1: but there seems to be something that like that these

1270
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:12,080
Speaker 1: experiences do where people let go, they dis habituate, and

1271
01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:14,840
Speaker 1: these things that people get tied up when they're sort

1272
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:16,920
Speaker 1: of like the end of life experience, like when people

1273
01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:19,800
Speaker 1: are on their deathbed, they never say, you know, like, yeah,

1274
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:22,120
Speaker 1: I wish I had worked more on this little problem.

1275
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:23,920
Speaker 1: I was obsessed with all of these things. They have

1276
01:18:24,040 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 1: those types of experiences like what's important. Family is important,

1277
01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:32,559
Speaker 1: like health is important, forgiveness, helping people right, empathy, Yeah,

1278
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:34,559
Speaker 1: like these are the things that when and I was

1279
01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:36,960
Speaker 1: going to say, it's so interesting we talk about narcissistic

1280
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 1: personality disorder or borderline because because when you're having an experience,

1281
01:18:42,360 --> 01:18:45,760
Speaker 1: there's so much empathy usually that is being poured out.

1282
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:49,720
Speaker 1: There's like sort of this collective, like you said, understanding

1283
01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:54,880
Speaker 1: of you know that we're all connected or united in

1284
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:58,920
Speaker 1: some capacity. And it's just so funny that a narcissist

1285
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:04,160
Speaker 1: would come out of that thinking I am the Messiah

1286
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:07,080
Speaker 1: right now. It's like, yeah, well this is this is

1287
01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:10,479
Speaker 1: also why It's also why I'm not as successful as

1288
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:15,320
Speaker 1: I probably could be, because I live a deathbed mentality.

1289
01:19:15,439 --> 01:19:18,160
Speaker 1: I live What Am I gonna remember when I'm on

1290
01:19:18,200 --> 01:19:20,240
Speaker 1: my deathbed? Am I gonna? Am I gonna worry? Am

1291
01:19:20,280 --> 01:19:23,200
Speaker 1: I gonna remember like some movie or some television show

1292
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:26,599
Speaker 1: or some this or that. No, I'm gonna remember sort

1293
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:30,200
Speaker 1: of living in Colorado with my family, you know, moving

1294
01:19:30,240 --> 01:19:33,520
Speaker 1: out of la or or being with Kate on some adventure.

1295
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:37,160
Speaker 1: Like that's the cool shit, you know. I mean, That's

1296
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:39,439
Speaker 1: what I'm gonna remember in my life. I like to

1297
01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:42,160
Speaker 1: try to live that deathbed mentality at the detriment maybe

1298
01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:46,200
Speaker 1: to other things, you know. But I have a quick

1299
01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:49,360
Speaker 1: question I wanted to know about, like the visuals. Okay,

1300
01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:51,040
Speaker 1: when you can look at when you look at grain

1301
01:19:51,120 --> 01:19:53,680
Speaker 1: of wood and it starts moving, or you see a

1302
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:56,559
Speaker 1: fucking dragon that's like eating your ball sack? Like, where

1303
01:19:56,560 --> 01:20:00,960
Speaker 1: does that come from? Scientifically, do we know did you

1304
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:03,800
Speaker 1: have an experience with a drag? Yes, we don't have

1305
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:08,400
Speaker 1: enough time to get into it. But do we do

1306
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:12,599
Speaker 1: we know? Do we know brain? Do we know what's

1307
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:17,000
Speaker 1: happening when that happens in our brains? So as much

1308
01:20:17,040 --> 01:20:20,960
Speaker 1: as we could say the visual cortex is the part

1309
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:26,679
Speaker 1: of the brain that that processes visual information is very active,

1310
01:20:27,439 --> 01:20:31,599
Speaker 1: and it appears that when people report visuals that there

1311
01:20:31,640 --> 01:20:36,240
Speaker 1: are there is activity there. So beyond that, we don't

1312
01:20:36,280 --> 01:20:39,680
Speaker 1: really know, I mean, the idea like, okay, what I mean,

1313
01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:41,240
Speaker 1: it's sort of like it's we're in the same place

1314
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:44,599
Speaker 1: we are with dreaming. It's like we know some you know,

1315
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:48,200
Speaker 1: visual when one has visions, so to speak, in their

1316
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 1: mind's eye, there's something going on in the brain related

1317
01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:58,080
Speaker 1: to visual processing. But what is the nature? You know, why?

1318
01:20:58,360 --> 01:21:02,240
Speaker 1: Why is it the dragon eating the ballsack versus like,

1319
01:21:02,600 --> 01:21:07,160
Speaker 1: you know what anything else? Why that? Now that probably

1320
01:21:07,200 --> 01:21:10,080
Speaker 1: has more to do with something about you, right, you know,

1321
01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:14,519
Speaker 1: or maybe's something random. I remember, I remember my very

1322
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:18,559
Speaker 1: first mushroom trip. My ex husband said, whatever you do,

1323
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:24,040
Speaker 1: don't look at yourself in the mirror. And I remember

1324
01:21:24,160 --> 01:21:26,280
Speaker 1: looking at myself in the mirror because of course he

1325
01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:28,439
Speaker 1: said it, and I did it, and I went and

1326
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:33,439
Speaker 1: I thought, like I felt so I loved the vessel

1327
01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:38,880
Speaker 1: being like like unimportant, like I saw like every vein

1328
01:21:39,040 --> 01:21:44,840
Speaker 1: and the blood circulation, and I felt so like just

1329
01:21:45,439 --> 01:21:49,880
Speaker 1: this like working being. I know, I literally every time.

1330
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 1: I every time I do mushrooms and look in the mirror,

1331
01:21:51,960 --> 01:21:55,720
Speaker 1: I age Benjamin. I'm like, I'm like, I go to

1332
01:21:55,840 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 1: one hundred years old like this and I love it.

1333
01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:02,599
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is a fucking crazy Sometimes people morph

1334
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:06,880
Speaker 1: into their people they know, like their relatives and whatnot. Yeah, Matt,

1335
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:09,280
Speaker 1: and I know I'm in to ask this, but I know,

1336
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:13,440
Speaker 1: I know you're probably gonna have a very diplomatic answer. Yeah,

1337
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:18,400
Speaker 1: but I know the answer where science and spirituality start

1338
01:22:18,479 --> 01:22:25,120
Speaker 1: to connect interesting. So, gosh, the problem is we don't

1339
01:22:25,200 --> 01:22:30,280
Speaker 1: know what spirituality is. So I always like to say, like,

1340
01:22:31,479 --> 01:22:36,519
Speaker 1: Y ask one participant was it spiritual? And they say, well, no,

1341
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:40,439
Speaker 1: I didn't see any like angels or crystals or anything,

1342
01:22:40,560 --> 01:22:44,360
Speaker 1: dream catchers or whatever. And then you ask another person

1343
01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:47,400
Speaker 1: that just described like feeling connected, the love for their

1344
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:52,439
Speaker 1: entire family and empathy for humanity, and and then you

1345
01:22:52,520 --> 01:22:56,000
Speaker 1: say was it spiritual? And they just look at you like, uh,

1346
01:22:56,520 --> 01:23:00,400
Speaker 1: didn't you hear me? Like what I just said. And

1347
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:03,000
Speaker 1: so you know, on the one hand, some people hold

1348
01:23:03,040 --> 01:23:07,559
Speaker 1: spirituals meaning something supernatural, and the other hand, people view

1349
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:11,200
Speaker 1: spiritual is basically something that any good clinician would hope

1350
01:23:11,200 --> 01:23:13,960
Speaker 1: for anyone to feel like there's meaning in your life,

1351
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:18,920
Speaker 1: that you're connected to other human beings, nothing supernatural at all.

1352
01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:22,800
Speaker 1: So it really kind of depends on what of those

1353
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:25,479
Speaker 1: defiorties you have. Because you're talking about the latter one

1354
01:23:25,560 --> 01:23:31,320
Speaker 1: about meaning and about connections states, then I think, yeah, absolutely,

1355
01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:34,519
Speaker 1: this sort of like it seems a really good way

1356
01:23:34,960 --> 01:23:40,000
Speaker 1: to access that, you know, those experiences. When it comes

1357
01:23:40,040 --> 01:23:46,200
Speaker 1: to the supernatural, that's an interesting area because my impression

1358
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:49,080
Speaker 1: is it kind of works with what you bring to it.

1359
01:23:49,479 --> 01:23:52,919
Speaker 1: You know, people who come in, you know, believing in Jesus,

1360
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:55,880
Speaker 1: they're more likely to have Jesus experiences. If you believe

1361
01:23:55,920 --> 01:23:59,360
Speaker 1: in plant spirits, you have, you know, you might have

1362
01:23:59,400 --> 01:24:05,800
Speaker 1: a plant spirit experience if you're plan if you're an atheist,

1363
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:09,439
Speaker 1: you're probably not going to come out with you know,

1364
01:24:10,240 --> 01:24:14,280
Speaker 1: believing in God, but maybe you'll have one of the

1365
01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:16,920
Speaker 1: you know, you feel connected to humanity and the universe,

1366
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:21,240
Speaker 1: is this miraculous thing that's connected and all that, or

1367
01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:30,360
Speaker 1: you are God like God knows everything and it's all connected.

1368
01:24:30,560 --> 01:24:35,280
Speaker 1: I think there for me speaking personally, there's a connectedness

1369
01:24:35,280 --> 01:24:38,639
Speaker 1: that I feel. There's nothing that's big as far as

1370
01:24:38,720 --> 01:24:40,960
Speaker 1: oh my God, there is a god. There's a human

1371
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:45,120
Speaker 1: connection that I get to experience with my you know,

1372
01:24:45,240 --> 01:24:50,040
Speaker 1: friends and family when we're all on mushrooms and we're

1373
01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:54,720
Speaker 1: all dancing and we're all just having an experience together

1374
01:24:55,040 --> 01:24:57,840
Speaker 1: and there's like a oneness, you know what I mean,

1375
01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:03,120
Speaker 1: And that that sticks with me. I mean that that

1376
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:05,880
Speaker 1: that is a forever thing. Even when you know the

1377
01:25:06,080 --> 01:25:09,439
Speaker 1: night is over, you know, you wake up and feel it,

1378
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:12,680
Speaker 1: still feel it. And it usually only Oliver on my

1379
01:25:12,840 --> 01:25:18,000
Speaker 1: sh nobody else is feeling in the rest that they

1380
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:26,400
Speaker 1: were never there. Rubber walls, I mean, it's interesting though

1381
01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:30,160
Speaker 1: in your description. I mean, there are wall like cave

1382
01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:35,599
Speaker 1: cave paintings that depict a similar scene from as far

1383
01:25:35,640 --> 01:25:38,880
Speaker 1: back as we can tell, even like nine thousand years ago.

1384
01:25:39,320 --> 01:25:43,160
Speaker 1: I mean, so this stuff dates back. People have apparently,

1385
01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:49,200
Speaker 1: by the evidence, been using psychedelics in you know, for ecstatics. Yeah,

1386
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:56,920
Speaker 1: presumably sacramental reasons beyond recorded history. Yeah, well, so, I

1387
01:25:56,960 --> 01:26:00,760
Speaker 1: mean this is a religion. All religion came from achadelics.

1388
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:04,479
Speaker 1: Because you think about a tribe or a group of

1389
01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:06,479
Speaker 1: people who are just going to eat a bunch of

1390
01:26:06,520 --> 01:26:10,320
Speaker 1: whatever they're eating, and they are having visions and seeing

1391
01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:13,240
Speaker 1: things and are going to be creating you know, something

1392
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:17,960
Speaker 1: more mystical or mythical, you know from that experience. So

1393
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:20,840
Speaker 1: Jesus did mushrooms. I just want to make that clear.

1394
01:26:21,360 --> 01:26:24,040
Speaker 1: So this has all been speculated. I would say that

1395
01:26:24,120 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 1: more broadly though, even if one doesn't buy buy that that,

1396
01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:32,200
Speaker 1: it does seem that indigenous societies tend to be pretty

1397
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:37,360
Speaker 1: focused on achieving altered states of consciousness, consciousness through whatever means,

1398
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:43,360
Speaker 1: like like these intense sound experiences, fasting, you know, finding

1399
01:26:43,400 --> 01:26:48,680
Speaker 1: some crazy cave with weird acoustics that like, creating otherworldly experiences,

1400
01:26:49,200 --> 01:26:51,439
Speaker 1: you know, kind of you name it. There there seems

1401
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:55,160
Speaker 1: great and little kids. I have an almost three year old.

1402
01:26:55,479 --> 01:26:59,479
Speaker 1: He just spends all the time like like there seems

1403
01:26:59,479 --> 01:27:02,439
Speaker 1: to be this huge human thing where folks like it's

1404
01:27:02,479 --> 01:27:06,160
Speaker 1: built into the human condition, where folks want to profoundly

1405
01:27:06,280 --> 01:27:11,599
Speaker 1: change the nature of their subjective experience. What's that about?

1406
01:27:11,720 --> 01:27:14,720
Speaker 1: I don't mean kids love to get dizzy. I want

1407
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:20,640
Speaker 1: to know what it means means. You know, psilocybin or

1408
01:27:20,760 --> 01:27:23,240
Speaker 1: mushrooms are legal in Denver, I think, and a few

1409
01:27:23,280 --> 01:27:25,880
Speaker 1: other places to actually not sell, but to have on

1410
01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:29,000
Speaker 1: you and you guys at Johns Hopkins are finally getting

1411
01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:33,040
Speaker 1: this money again, this to research, to research and understand

1412
01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:36,280
Speaker 1: what this is all about. I mean this is relatively new, correct,

1413
01:27:36,360 --> 01:27:39,080
Speaker 1: All this money sort of pouring into the research for

1414
01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:42,240
Speaker 1: you guys. So the money hasn't been from the government yet.

1415
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:45,040
Speaker 1: That's sort of the last leg to go. I mean,

1416
01:27:45,080 --> 01:27:47,680
Speaker 1: the FDA and the DEA have been on board for

1417
01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:51,080
Speaker 1: a long time. The last government leg to be on

1418
01:27:51,160 --> 01:27:54,280
Speaker 1: board is the money side. It's NIH, National Institutes and

1419
01:27:54,320 --> 01:27:56,400
Speaker 1: Health God. I think that's going to change in the

1420
01:27:56,439 --> 01:28:00,360
Speaker 1: next couple of years, but they have yet to fund still,

1421
01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:04,400
Speaker 1: all of the work on therapeutic all the therapeutic work

1422
01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:08,519
Speaker 1: with psychedelcts has been funded by philanthropy. Hmmmmmm. Well, especially

1423
01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:10,320
Speaker 1: with with like all of a lot of our veterans

1424
01:28:10,320 --> 01:28:13,120
Speaker 1: and soldiers coming back with PTSD. You know, I have

1425
01:28:13,160 --> 01:28:15,960
Speaker 1: a friend actually who this is his life. He works

1426
01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:21,479
Speaker 1: with veterans with iahuascas, psilocybin and MDMA, and you know,

1427
01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:24,320
Speaker 1: just reading some of his papers and talking to him,

1428
01:28:24,760 --> 01:28:27,280
Speaker 1: you know about how incredible it's been for some of

1429
01:28:27,280 --> 01:28:29,840
Speaker 1: these guys they can get off these fucked up drugs

1430
01:28:30,280 --> 01:28:33,639
Speaker 1: and actually do something that can help them from the earth.

1431
01:28:34,160 --> 01:28:35,840
Speaker 1: You know, I'm sure that's probably a big part of

1432
01:28:35,840 --> 01:28:38,960
Speaker 1: your studies as well. There's a lot so we haven't

1433
01:28:38,960 --> 01:28:42,960
Speaker 1: started yet, but we're I'm leading a study on using

1434
01:28:43,240 --> 01:28:46,600
Speaker 1: psilocybin to treat PTSD, and it would be great to

1435
01:28:47,400 --> 01:28:51,960
Speaker 1: really focus on veterans and so MDMA certainly looks very

1436
01:28:51,960 --> 01:28:56,040
Speaker 1: promising in that category. I'm told by some folks that,

1437
01:28:57,160 --> 01:29:01,160
Speaker 1: you know, the classic psychedelics like psilocybin or iowa have

1438
01:29:01,280 --> 01:29:04,280
Speaker 1: even more potential. We'll see, you know, we need to

1439
01:29:04,320 --> 01:29:06,880
Speaker 1: do the research, but I'm I mean, there's so many

1440
01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:11,160
Speaker 1: prompt promising anecdotes of solos. I'm also I'm really curious

1441
01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:15,880
Speaker 1: about ayahuasca and addiction. One of the things that I

1442
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:18,759
Speaker 1: know that I've seen is that people who had suffered

1443
01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:21,400
Speaker 1: from addiction, A couple of people that I knew that

1444
01:29:21,439 --> 01:29:27,080
Speaker 1: went and did multiple ayahuasca experiences was able to get sober.

1445
01:29:27,320 --> 01:29:31,000
Speaker 1: It kind of shifted their brain at the way that

1446
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:34,080
Speaker 1: they I mean, how, I don't know how about that

1447
01:29:34,120 --> 01:29:37,759
Speaker 1: for a second actually, because you know, everyone has addicts

1448
01:29:37,760 --> 01:29:40,080
Speaker 1: in their family, and you know, how is how is

1449
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:43,200
Speaker 1: this affecting you know, some of these addicts and is

1450
01:29:43,560 --> 01:29:46,160
Speaker 1: it bringing them back? I mean, where does psilocybin sort

1451
01:29:46,160 --> 01:29:50,280
Speaker 1: of fall into that category. So my presumption is that

1452
01:29:50,439 --> 01:29:52,760
Speaker 1: given the way they work in the brain, and there's

1453
01:29:52,800 --> 01:29:56,599
Speaker 1: anecdotes with both that that that this anti addiction potential

1454
01:29:56,640 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 1: is there for not only ayahuasca, but psilocybin, and for LSD.

1455
01:30:01,200 --> 01:30:04,080
Speaker 1: There was older work on alcoholism and LSD. We've done

1456
01:30:04,080 --> 01:30:09,479
Speaker 1: a lot of work with tobacco nicotine addiction. There's modern

1457
01:30:09,560 --> 01:30:15,640
Speaker 1: work with psilocybin to treat alcoholism. We've got funding to

1458
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:18,960
Speaker 1: use psilocybin to treat opioid addiction, so I'm going to

1459
01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:22,160
Speaker 1: be running that study. We don't have data on that yet,

1460
01:30:22,160 --> 01:30:25,679
Speaker 1: but there was some older research with LSD treating opioid

1461
01:30:25,680 --> 01:30:29,920
Speaker 1: addiction heroin addiction, So I think there is I think

1462
01:30:29,960 --> 01:30:32,599
Speaker 1: there's more in common than there are differences between these

1463
01:30:32,960 --> 01:30:35,040
Speaker 1: and I think one of the reasons that's one of

1464
01:30:35,080 --> 01:30:37,160
Speaker 1: the reasons why this can be such a game changer

1465
01:30:37,160 --> 01:30:40,479
Speaker 1: for psychiatry. I think there's far more in common between

1466
01:30:41,160 --> 01:30:46,000
Speaker 1: addiction and depression and other psychiatric disorders, not all, but

1467
01:30:46,120 --> 01:30:50,120
Speaker 1: a lot of them then we've normally assumed, and the

1468
01:30:50,120 --> 01:30:54,160
Speaker 1: way we categorize them is kind of superficial in psychiatry.

1469
01:30:54,160 --> 01:30:57,200
Speaker 1: It's not really based on a mechanistic understanding. I think

1470
01:30:57,240 --> 01:31:00,799
Speaker 1: these are different ways of being stuck in a very deeply,

1471
01:31:01,960 --> 01:31:05,839
Speaker 1: very deep rut. Whether it's being stuck with a certain

1472
01:31:06,040 --> 01:31:09,320
Speaker 1: type of substance use where it's harming other aspects of

1473
01:31:09,360 --> 01:31:11,479
Speaker 1: your life, or whether it's stuck in a certain way

1474
01:31:11,479 --> 01:31:15,439
Speaker 1: of thinking about yourself that you're lose all the self

1475
01:31:15,439 --> 01:31:20,360
Speaker 1: perscatory thoughts that come with depression, and you know, being

1476
01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:24,200
Speaker 1: stuck in this single minded focus on the trauma and

1477
01:31:24,240 --> 01:31:27,799
Speaker 1: that that defining your entire life and your self worth.

1478
01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:30,599
Speaker 1: I think these are all ways where people are stuck

1479
01:31:30,640 --> 01:31:35,920
Speaker 1: in this really suboptimal way, and psychedelics, loosely speaking, seem

1480
01:31:35,960 --> 01:31:38,240
Speaker 1: to be a powerful way to blast people out of that.

1481
01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:41,719
Speaker 1: And once someone's out of it, it's it's like once

1482
01:31:41,760 --> 01:31:44,600
Speaker 1: they bounce out of those ski ruts from a you know,

1483
01:31:44,680 --> 01:31:48,000
Speaker 1: well worn tracks on a ski slope or you know

1484
01:31:48,040 --> 01:31:50,160
Speaker 1: where it's you know, you just fall into the tracks

1485
01:31:50,160 --> 01:31:53,520
Speaker 1: that are normally there. And psychedelics are like a blizzard

1486
01:31:53,560 --> 01:31:56,200
Speaker 1: going over the mountain where it's like, ah, now there's

1487
01:31:56,240 --> 01:31:58,160
Speaker 1: fresh powder anywhere. Now I could see I could just

1488
01:31:58,200 --> 01:32:01,240
Speaker 1: avoid always hit those trees. I can avoid that. There's

1489
01:32:01,240 --> 01:32:04,600
Speaker 1: this kind of agency where someone could see the pitfalls

1490
01:32:04,600 --> 01:32:07,479
Speaker 1: and have this greater ability to have a flexibility to

1491
01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:11,479
Speaker 1: move outside of these stuck patterns. That's so great. And

1492
01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:15,760
Speaker 1: and do we understand why that's happening or do we

1493
01:32:15,840 --> 01:32:19,840
Speaker 1: just know that it is he's trying to I think, yeah,

1494
01:32:19,960 --> 01:32:21,519
Speaker 1: we're trying to figure that out. I think it has

1495
01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:24,080
Speaker 1: something to do with that the brain communicating with itself

1496
01:32:24,080 --> 01:32:27,599
Speaker 1: in this radically different way. And some research I'm doing

1497
01:32:27,680 --> 01:32:31,320
Speaker 1: now with smoking cessation, where we're imaging people long term,

1498
01:32:31,520 --> 01:32:34,799
Speaker 1: hopefully we'll have some answers like have you basically shaken

1499
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:37,960
Speaker 1: up the snow globe and things have settled down in

1500
01:32:37,960 --> 01:32:42,200
Speaker 1: a more in a healthier way in terms of ongoing

1501
01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:47,599
Speaker 1: brain communication patterns. But yeah, I think so much. Even

1502
01:32:48,800 --> 01:32:52,280
Speaker 1: with even forgetting the biology, we know so much psychologically,

1503
01:32:52,680 --> 01:32:57,240
Speaker 1: it just seems clear that people have insightful experiences where

1504
01:32:57,320 --> 01:33:02,479
Speaker 1: they have learned from these experiences in the same way

1505
01:33:02,520 --> 01:33:06,240
Speaker 1: that people learn from very good therapy that takes a

1506
01:33:06,240 --> 01:33:09,320
Speaker 1: lot of time, and with certainly with certain things like

1507
01:33:09,400 --> 01:33:12,000
Speaker 1: with PTSD, it's hard to keep going to it because

1508
01:33:12,040 --> 01:33:14,880
Speaker 1: it's exposure to the thing that you know it is

1509
01:33:14,920 --> 01:33:16,760
Speaker 1: causing you problems. You got to keep talking about the

1510
01:33:16,760 --> 01:33:21,840
Speaker 1: horrible thing that happened to you. But the potential is

1511
01:33:21,880 --> 01:33:25,640
Speaker 1: there to have this kind of experience that can radically

1512
01:33:25,680 --> 01:33:28,519
Speaker 1: shake someone out of that, and that can have a

1513
01:33:28,600 --> 01:33:31,320
Speaker 1: power where someone just lands in a different spot and

1514
01:33:31,360 --> 01:33:34,120
Speaker 1: re establish a new normal. Yeah, it's like it's like

1515
01:33:34,439 --> 01:33:36,920
Speaker 1: it's like a loop. I had a guru once, he's

1516
01:33:36,960 --> 01:33:40,200
Speaker 1: a Kundalini guru guy, and he said to me, and

1517
01:33:40,240 --> 01:33:42,240
Speaker 1: I thought it was a really interesting thing. He goes,

1518
01:33:42,439 --> 01:33:45,280
Speaker 1: you know, it's like it's like you have a television

1519
01:33:45,400 --> 01:33:48,000
Speaker 1: set right here on the right side of you up here,

1520
01:33:48,040 --> 01:33:51,479
Speaker 1: and you're just you haven't yet turned off the same channel,

1521
01:33:51,520 --> 01:33:54,479
Speaker 1: and you just need to turn off the television. It's

1522
01:33:54,479 --> 01:33:57,519
Speaker 1: the same sitcom, you know, running over and over and

1523
01:33:57,560 --> 01:33:59,280
Speaker 1: over again. I think that's kind of what you're saying,

1524
01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:02,479
Speaker 1: Like it's a similar metaphor of like the loop that

1525
01:34:02,840 --> 01:34:05,000
Speaker 1: we can get right stuck in. I mean, there's so

1526
01:34:05,160 --> 01:34:07,960
Speaker 1: much that we could talk about. God, it's crazy. One

1527
01:34:07,960 --> 01:34:10,599
Speaker 1: more question I loved. I wish I could talk for

1528
01:34:10,640 --> 01:34:13,280
Speaker 1: one hundred years. This is so exciting. I hope you

1529
01:34:13,360 --> 01:34:16,519
Speaker 1: come back. I know, but if you are on sort

1530
01:34:16,560 --> 01:34:19,519
Speaker 1: of some psychiatric medication, you know, are you allowed to

1531
01:34:19,520 --> 01:34:22,120
Speaker 1: take part in the study. It depends on what the

1532
01:34:22,160 --> 01:34:26,519
Speaker 1: medication is. If someone's on antidepressants, it's likely they're going

1533
01:34:26,600 --> 01:34:29,600
Speaker 1: to have a very blunted response to psychedelics, so like

1534
01:34:29,720 --> 01:34:33,160
Speaker 1: rat research even shows this, and it's that they their

1535
01:34:33,240 --> 01:34:36,680
Speaker 1: serotonin receptors aren't going to have the same effect, so

1536
01:34:36,720 --> 01:34:39,320
Speaker 1: it's you know, you're gonna have a dud session. Basically,

1537
01:34:39,840 --> 01:34:43,600
Speaker 1: if someone's on antidepressants, but other medications, it kind of

1538
01:34:43,600 --> 01:34:48,000
Speaker 1: depends on what the medication is. Anything involving the serotonin system,

1539
01:34:48,040 --> 01:34:50,720
Speaker 1: it's safer to just you know, kind of make sure

1540
01:34:50,720 --> 01:34:53,400
Speaker 1: they're not on it in case there's some interaction. And

1541
01:34:53,439 --> 01:34:57,719
Speaker 1: there's some other meds, but some medications are okay, okay.

1542
01:34:57,760 --> 01:35:02,160
Speaker 1: One more question, do you get high on your own supply? Ah?

1543
01:35:02,439 --> 01:35:05,479
Speaker 1: You save that one until the end. Like, I know

1544
01:35:05,640 --> 01:35:10,720
Speaker 1: you can't answer it. I lower my defenses, so i'll

1545
01:35:10,720 --> 01:35:13,920
Speaker 1: give you the politicians answer. If I said I've had

1546
01:35:13,960 --> 01:35:16,360
Speaker 1: experiences like this, then a whole lot of people out

1547
01:35:16,400 --> 01:35:19,920
Speaker 1: there would say you're completely biased and have no right

1548
01:35:20,000 --> 01:35:22,559
Speaker 1: to do this. And if I said I hadn't, then

1549
01:35:22,600 --> 01:35:25,439
Speaker 1: a whole lot of other people would say, oh, how

1550
01:35:25,520 --> 01:35:27,800
Speaker 1: dare you do this to people and not know what

1551
01:35:27,880 --> 01:35:30,000
Speaker 1: this is like yourself. You have no right to do this,

1552
01:35:30,120 --> 01:35:33,080
Speaker 1: so damned if you do. Damned if you don't. I

1553
01:35:33,120 --> 01:35:37,400
Speaker 1: will say I and my colleagues highly we we deeply

1554
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:40,960
Speaker 1: value how meaningful this can be for people. And I

1555
01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:44,240
Speaker 1: think that's the more important question is you know, do

1556
01:35:44,400 --> 01:35:49,400
Speaker 1: you you know, take the greatest care to to hold

1557
01:35:49,439 --> 01:35:56,040
Speaker 1: these opportunities with people very seriously and and and yeah,

1558
01:35:56,080 --> 01:35:58,439
Speaker 1: and have a deep empathy for them so that I

1559
01:35:58,479 --> 01:36:01,559
Speaker 1: can't answer and say welcome to see you next week.

1560
01:36:01,680 --> 01:36:05,120
Speaker 1: I'm flying out there, Matt. If someone wants to know more,

1561
01:36:05,800 --> 01:36:08,200
Speaker 1: if someone wants to be a part of this, how

1562
01:36:08,240 --> 01:36:14,000
Speaker 1: do they reach you? So we have a website, Hopkins

1563
01:36:14,040 --> 01:36:19,559
Speaker 1: Psychedelic dot org, and I post about our research at

1564
01:36:19,600 --> 01:36:24,479
Speaker 1: my Twitter Drug Underscore Researcher. But it's not hard to

1565
01:36:24,520 --> 01:36:26,840
Speaker 1: find us even if you forgot the website. You know,

1566
01:36:27,000 --> 01:36:30,880
Speaker 1: google Johns Hopkins Psychedelic and it'll be the first thing

1567
01:36:30,880 --> 01:36:32,840
Speaker 1: that pops up, and you can find out about the

1568
01:36:32,840 --> 01:36:36,240
Speaker 1: current studies, apply for studies online, see what we have

1569
01:36:36,680 --> 01:36:39,559
Speaker 1: coming up in the future, and what we've already done. Great,

1570
01:36:39,960 --> 01:36:43,160
Speaker 1: it's fun. Thanks for setting with us. It's enlightening. Man.

1571
01:36:43,240 --> 01:36:45,879
Speaker 1: I think this is the future. You know, I'm biased

1572
01:36:45,920 --> 01:36:47,840
Speaker 1: a little bit, but I do. I think it's just

1573
01:36:47,880 --> 01:36:51,000
Speaker 1: a beautiful thing that if Thanks for your Yeah, I've

1574
01:36:51,000 --> 01:36:53,800
Speaker 1: really enjoyed the question and having the discussion with you guys,

1575
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:57,280
Speaker 1: So thanks very much. All right, brother, Okay, take care.

1576
01:37:00,600 --> 01:37:04,400
Speaker 1: Sibling Revelry is executive produced by Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson.

1577
01:37:04,600 --> 01:37:14,400
Speaker 1: Producer is Alison Presnik. Music by Mark Hudson aka Uncle Mark.