1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:08,159 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Now, let's talk a 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: bit more than about the Prime Minister Kirstarmer. He used 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: a galitzy London investment summit to proclaim growth and wealth 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: creation the cornerstones of his government. He pledged to rip 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: out the bureaucracy that blocks investment and make the country's 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: regulatory regime fit for the modern age. He also rejected 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: suggestions that he could raise capital gains taxes high as 8 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: thirty nine percent when he was speaking to Bloomberg yesterday. Now, 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: I'm pleased to say that joining us for a discussion 10 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: around this is Ed Bussey, who is CEO of Oxford 11 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: Science Enterprises, which is an independent investment company but focused 12 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: on building out companies that emerge from Oxford University. Ed, 13 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: welcome to the program. Thank you for being with us. 14 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: Good Morning's a pleasure to be here. 15 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're also meeting with the Chancellor. You're involved in 16 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: in the startup and build up a program here in 17 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: the UK for business is How successful do you think 18 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: the investment summit was yesterday? What do you think of 19 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: the event overall? 20 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 2: Well, it sends a very important signal out to the 21 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: to the global market. That the UK is open for business, 22 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: so I think that has to be applauded. And clearly 23 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 2: we had some sort of big, big name investors attending, 24 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 2: and you know, I think it signaling is important. We 25 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 2: know we do need to reset the narrative. We we 26 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 2: need some more positivity and we and I know I 27 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 2: wasn't at the summit personally, but looking at the coverage, 28 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,199 Speaker 2: including the great coverage from Bloomberg, I should say I think, 29 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 2: you know, it feels like that the government is genuinely 30 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 2: intending to really drive the growth agenda. I think there's 31 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: some sincerity behind that and is trying to be more 32 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 2: ambitious around that era, which you know is very welcome. 33 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: Okay, that's good, but surely action and delivery are the 34 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: thing that is required. I mean, the diagnosis of the 35 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: issue in terms of trying to improve the business environment, 36 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: and that's well understood. They have to deliver, don't they. 37 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 2: Absolutely what really matters now and yesterday is great, but 38 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 2: what really matters is what we all do now off 39 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: the back of it, because this needs action and it's fantastic. 40 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 2: We had some amazing headlines yesterday, some really big investment 41 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 2: numbers which are sort of great which is great news, 42 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: but this needs to flow through into tangible action that 43 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: makes a real difference for those of us who are 44 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,399 Speaker 2: trying to build companies from the ground up in the UK. 45 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,399 Speaker 2: And there are some significant challenges and I'm not suggesting 46 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: the government isn't aware of the challenges, but what really 47 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: matters is the resolution of some of the significant problems 48 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 2: that the sector faces. 49 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 3: And you know, I've just noted that there has been, 50 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 3: I guess a challenge to retain talent here in the UK. 51 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 3: Is there something tangible that the government can do to 52 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 3: help retain this talent? A lot of you know, recent graduates, 53 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,399 Speaker 3: even these Nobel Prize winners ers, they were all born 54 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 3: and educated here in the UK. But since left is 55 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 3: there something tangible you're looking for for the government to 56 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 3: address that? 57 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, there's a few really important dimensions to your question. 58 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 2: I think, first of all, if you look at the 59 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: founding entrepreneur ecosystem that we have here in the UK, 60 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 2: it's global. I think the latest numbers of forty to 61 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: fifty percent of the founders of our fast growth companies 62 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 2: come from outside the UK. So it's not just academics 63 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: and universities, it's the founders of our business, but also 64 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: the early stage investment community. It's entirely global, it's international, 65 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: it's from all over the world, and we do have 66 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: a problem attracting that talent across all those areas into 67 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 2: the UK. And I noted yesterday there was some comments 68 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 2: around well there hadn't been that many references to the 69 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: word tax. Now, if you're a large corporate based outside 70 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 2: the UK, that sort of one scenario and you might 71 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 2: hear that message. But if you're a founder or an 72 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: academic looking to set up a business, or an investor 73 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 2: and or a family office, the really critical layer of 74 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: the ecosystem which we need, that of which we need thousands, 75 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 2: those people do really care about taxes, their personal taxes, 76 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: capital gains taxes, inherit taxes. So for those people who 77 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: would be directly affected. Now, when we talk about working people, 78 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 2: this includes that group, the hard working entrepreneurs that are 79 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 2: trying to build companies and we need to bring them 80 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: from outside the UK because the are not enough here 81 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: in the UK to build the sort of scale of 82 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: growth that we're talking about. 83 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: Okay, so you really sure then that Stephanie Flanders whence 84 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: she was speaking to Kirstamy yesterday managed to get you 85 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: an avowal that actually thirty nine percent was a bit 86 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: off the mark in terms of capital gains tax increases. 87 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: Do you think that all the people that you are 88 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: speaking to are leaving because of the concerns around higher 89 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,239 Speaker 1: taxation personal and business? 90 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 2: I mean, look, I can't talk about this quantitatively. I 91 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: do know anecdotally a number of investors and entrepreneurs who 92 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 2: have already decided to build their business outside the UK 93 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 2: just because they're concerned around the direction of travel that 94 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 2: has been signaled from a taxation perspective. Because we're again 95 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: we're this group is entirely mobile. Yeah, it's global, it's mobile. 96 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 2: They can set their business up in Zurich, or in 97 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 2: Barcelona or elsewhere. And we need to remember that there 98 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: are absolutely there are some financial challenges for the UK 99 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: which will it sounds like it's going to need some 100 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: sort of tax increase, but we're competing in a global 101 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: marketplace for talent and tax is an important part. Is 102 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 2: not the only part, but it's an important consideration for 103 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: people where they think about locating themselves. 104 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 1: So is kiss our Kissam and Rachel V's pro entrepreneur. 105 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:55,799 Speaker 2: I think so that's what I'm That's what I'm hearing. 106 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 2: But it comes back to your earlier question. This needs 107 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 2: to translate into action. What are we actually going to do? 108 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: Because if on one hand, we have you know, sixty 109 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 2: eight billion of investment sort of booked as of yesterday, 110 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: but we then tax this layer of the economy to 111 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 2: the point where basically they don't know the opportunity cost 112 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 2: of people not coming here but also the existing people 113 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 2: here thinking of relocating, then we've just shot ourselves in 114 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: the foot. So that's it's going to come back to 115 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: what do we actually do off the back of this? 116 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 2: And so all I is focused on the thirtieth of 117 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 2: October in this respect, but there are are there other 118 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 2: parts of this. You know, the government has an important 119 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 2: role to raise money and help raise money with us 120 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 2: across the whole ecosystem. Procurement is another area where we 121 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 2: need real attention government procurement that is, talent is another, 122 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 2: and then we need joined up strategies around these high 123 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 2: value areas. It was great to see the announcements around 124 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 2: AI and and climate yesterday, but we need to be 125 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: focusing on quantum and the other sort of critical areas 126 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 2: where the UK has got a global edge. 127 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I guess attracting investment money and having the 128 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 3: startups here, Yes, that's all well and good, but what 129 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 3: about the IPO landscape when it comes to here in London. 130 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 3: It's been you know, dire for the London market in 131 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 3: terms of IPO's barely four billion just in the last 132 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 3: three years. Is that were you and do you see 133 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 3: any action that the new government could take to help 134 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 3: foster that environment? 135 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 2: Well, I know talking to the likes of Julia Hoggett 136 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 2: that there is a real there is a real concern 137 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 2: and a real push to try to address that. It's 138 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: going to take time, a lot of these things, mansion house, 139 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: it's going to take time. So I think there's a 140 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 2: lot of good intention and goodwill and a lot of 141 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 2: good work going to try to resolve it. But you're 142 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: absolutely right, this is a problem. If we look at 143 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 2: our portfolio, we have one hundred and twenty companies in 144 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: the portfolio. We're building ten new spin outs a year. 145 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 2: We have a number of unicorns in the making. And 146 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 2: the sad fact is, if you look at it from 147 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 2: a uk PLC point of view, those companies that are 148 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 2: thinking about an IPO or or talking about and not 149 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: one of them is looking at the UK. Now with 150 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: my UK hat on, that's a bit of a travesty, 151 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: isn't it, Because we then get accused of building great 152 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 2: cat companies and then catapulting them out of the country. Now, 153 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: our shareholders who from around the world might say, well, 154 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 2: actually Nasdak's the right place maybe to list and so 155 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: you know, that's a logical economic argument, and I mean 156 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 2: you can't dispute that. But I think we'd say, with 157 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: my UK hat on, we have got a problem there 158 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 2: we need to fix because ideally we'd keep these companies here. 159 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: If the UK is going to build its first trillion 160 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: pound company, in my view, it's going to come out 161 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: of the deep tech ecosystem of one of our universities. Yeah, 162 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: that's where it's going to happen. And for the value 163 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: of that company to then trickle down to cascade down 164 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 2: in the UK and create the next generation of entrepreneurs 165 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: and capital flow. We need those, We need these listings 166 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 2: and exits to be happening here. 167 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, And everybody, the government downwards talk about the importance 168 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: of the capital and the kind of the brain stoffs 169 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 1: that we have in our top universities, including at Oxford, 170 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: which is so important, and yet only earlier this year 171 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: I was doing special reporting and long podcast about the 172 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: dire need to fund universities a little bit better and 173 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: the fact that the nine thousand and something cap on 174 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: university fees is going to have to go up. That 175 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: would seem to be the drive funding university so that 176 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: people come here, and the visa requirements so that you 177 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,199 Speaker 1: can come here and build that business. Is the government 178 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: doing anything on that, never mind skills and so on. 179 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,599 Speaker 2: Well, so you've hit on a really I mean, this 180 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: is why I'm so energized about what I'm doing is 181 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: and it can equally be frustrating because one of the 182 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: areas where the UK has a massive competitive edge is 183 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: around our universities. Four of the top ten universities in 184 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 2: the world are UK universities, twenty eight of the top 185 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 2: hundred are UK universities. I mean, we are where punching 186 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 2: way above our weight and so funding our universities properly 187 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: and then supporting the commercialization of the world class research 188 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 2: that comes out of them is absolutely critical to the 189 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 2: government's agenda on growth, productivity and creating a superpower. 190 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: One last thought then are you disappointed that the amount 191 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: of money being invested into the National Wealth Fund has 192 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: been cut by what about a fifth? Twenty seven point 193 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: eight billion pounds will be allowed to be deployed for 194 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,359 Speaker 1: the National Wealth Fund, which is one of the sources 195 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: of crowding in public private money together. 196 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 2: I think it's still a large amount of money. What 197 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: I'm focused on is where is that money going to 198 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 2: be allocated? And also that's why the Mansion House Compact 199 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 2: is so important. You know, that's the forty to fifty 200 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: billion that if we can drive that through on an 201 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 2: accelerated basis, we haven't got time a lot of time here, 202 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: then I think that's what's going to make a real difference.