1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,399 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 2: Hi, my name is Robert Lamman. This is the Monster Fact, 3 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: a short form series from Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 2: focusing in non mythical creatures, ideas, and monsters in time. 5 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 2: As we round out our look at some different monsters 6 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: from DC comics, I wanted to talk about one of 7 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 2: my longtime favorites, the one and only swamp Thing. Swamp 8 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 2: Thing was the creation of writer Lynn Wine and artist 9 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 2: Bernie Wrightson, debuting in the House of Secrets horror comic 10 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 2: back in nineteen seventy one. Since that time, swamp Thing 11 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: has appeared in two live action eighties films, two live 12 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: action TV series, and numerous animation and video game projects, 13 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 2: But among comic fans there's nothing to compare to Alan 14 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: Moore's run with the character during the nineteen eighties. Swamp 15 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 2: Thing's original origin story was not all but different from 16 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 2: other lab accidents spawned the monsters. Scientist ALC Holland his 17 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 2: experimental formula and a lab explosion in the Bayou transforms 18 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 2: man into plant based monster, who in turn battles various 19 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 2: other monsters, often in the form of doctor Anton R. 20 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 2: Kane's Unmen, plus many others. In Moore's run with the character, however, 21 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: he subverted this trope, invoking biochemical memory experiments about plenarian worms. 22 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 2: We discussed these in our episode Devourer of Memories. His 23 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: take is that Alic Holland does not survive the explosion 24 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 2: in the swamp. He is not a man who becomes 25 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: a plant like monster, but plant life of the swamp 26 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: that generates a body and a sense of self in 27 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 2: the likeness of the dead man it consumes in and 28 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: this more stripped swamp Thing of any direct connection to 29 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: his human identity and opens the door for a deeper 30 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 2: connection to the green and the Parliament of trees, essentially 31 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 2: recreating the character as a plant elemental, a warrior of Gaia, 32 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 2: and overall super lora ax if you will. If you 33 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: haven't read the Saga of the Swamp Thing, I highly 34 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 2: highly recommend it. Virtually nothing can touch it now. Long 35 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: time listeners to Stuff to Blow your mind and general 36 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 2: philosophy junkies might remember a similar creature. No, not Marvel's 37 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: man Thing, though he's awesome as well, but philosopher Donald 38 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: Davidson's swamp Man thought experiment We've talked about this on 39 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 2: the show as well, back in Our Thought Experiment's episode. 40 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: It basically goes as follows. If a lightning strike in 41 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 2: the swamp were to destroy Davidson's body and transform an 42 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 2: adjacent dead tree into an exact living replica of Davidson 43 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 2: without reusing any of the previous Davidson molecules, then what 44 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 2: do we have? This tree double or swampman. It behaves 45 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 2: just like the previous Davidson and seems to know what 46 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 2: he knew, But does it really know anything? In this 47 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 2: Swampman is a rumination on thought and meaning in knowing 48 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: one's mind. Davidson writes the following quote, My replica can't 49 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 2: recognize my friends. It can't recognize anything since it never 50 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 2: cognized anything in the first place. It can't know my 51 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 2: friend's names, though of course it seems to. It can't 52 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: remember my house. It can't mean what I do by 53 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 2: the word house, for example, since the sound house it 54 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: makes was not learned in a context that would give 55 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 2: it the right meaning, or any meaning at all. Indeed, 56 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: I don't see how my replica can be said to 57 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: mean anything by the sounds it makes, nor to have 58 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: any thoughts unquote. Now, it's worth noting that Davidson, who 59 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: died in two thousand and three, published this idea on 60 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: Swampmn a few years after Moore recast The Origin of 61 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 2: swamp Thing, and as far as I can tell, no 62 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: one is entirely certain on how and to what extent 63 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 2: the two are connected. Authors Chris Galliver and Nathaniel Goldberg 64 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: explored the connection or possible connection in the twenty nineteen 65 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 2: book Superhero Thought Experiments, Comic Book Philosophy and contend Quote. 66 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: While there's no evidence that either Moore or Davidson read 67 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 2: each other, Moore's series appears to be philosophically influenced and 68 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 2: Davidson's Thought Experiment appears to be pop culturally influenced. So 69 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 2: perhaps it's just the case of two men on different 70 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: tracks thinking deep thoughts about swamp and the self. 71 00:04:59,400 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: Now. 72 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 2: Gavilie and Goldberg also stressed that there are distinct differences 73 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 2: in their treatments. Quote. When it comes to meaning or semantics, 74 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 2: swamp Man is a blank slate, while more swamp Thing 75 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: initially mistakes itself for Alec holland only later to realize 76 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 2: that it isn't Alec Holland. Swamp Man never mistakes itself 77 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 2: for Donald Davidson. It only appears to do so. If 78 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 2: Davidson is right, swamp Man thinks no thoughts. It can't 79 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: think it's Davidson because it can't think at all. Hmm. 80 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 2: So ponder on all of that, and by all means, 81 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 2: pick up a copy of Superhero Thought Experiments if you 82 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 2: want to deeper dive on this topic. It's really quite 83 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 2: an excellent book. Comic fans, I will leave you with this. 84 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: Here's a question for you. Has swamp Thing ever actually 85 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 2: met Davidson's swamp Man in the pages of a comic book. 86 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 2: It seems like, in general, any kind of matchup or 87 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: encounter that one could possibly imagine has occurred or no 88 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: doubt will occur. I can't help but wonder how this 89 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: would go down. What would swamp Thing think about the 90 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: encounter and what would swamp Man seem to think about 91 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 2: it but actually not think at all. Tune in for 92 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 2: additional episodes of The Monster Fact or The Artifact each week. 93 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 2: As always, you can email us at contact at Stuff 94 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 2: to Blow your Mind dot com. 95 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 96 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 97 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.