WEBVTT - Actually, the Office Dress Code Is Alive and Well 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:04.200 From executive search to talent strategy, leadership development, rewards and 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:06.880 succession planning. Corn Fairy can help you realize the full 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:09.879 potential of your people, so you can take your business 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.520 where it wants to go up. Learn more at corn 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:16.720 Ferry dot com slash up. There's this notion that the 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:20.640 office dress code is going away. Offices are becoming more 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:24.280 casual and the variety of things people can wear is increasing. 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:27.440 But we're wondering if the dress code still exists, but 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:42.320 maybe in a different form. This is game plan. Welcome 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:45.320 to game Plan. I'm Rebecca Greenfield, a reporter at Bloomberg, 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:47.639 where I cover the workplace, and I am Sam Grosbart. 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.440 I am a writer at Bloomberg Business Week magazine. This 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:53.720 week we're talking about the office dress code, what you 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:56.360 wear to work. There was an article that came out 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:58.720 in The New York Times earlier this year that declared 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.960 the end of the office code and said that everything 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:04.360 is confusing and up for grabs. Now, can I make 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:08.639 a snap judgment on that horse hockey? That's a weird phrase. 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:13.520 The point the article is making is it's looking around 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:17.680 offices and saying, you know, maybe fifteen years ago, business 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:22.119 casual rained, and people were wearing khakis and buttondowns, and 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:24.959 women had to wear more formal clothing. And now you 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:27.720 look around offices and even here at Bloomberg, and there's 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.040 a huge variety of what people wear. Some people are 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:32.800 in jeans and a blouse, some people do dress up. 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:37.480 Some people, like the developers at certain offices, where really 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:40.120 really casual jeans and T shirts and tiva's and socks. 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.199 And part of that has to do with what those 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:46.480 people do for a living. Obviously, if you sit at 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.240 your desk all day, never really interact with a client 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:53.720 a customer, your job is entirely internal. Take those developers 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:56.720 you were just mentioning, well, then it really doesn't altogether 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.000 matter what you wear as long as you get your 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:00.920 tasks done, you get done on time, you get them 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:04.800 done effectively. But if you're in a sales position, something 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:07.400 that happens in this building, or you are a lawyer 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:09.400 and you're going to court, or you have clients, or 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:12.560 you have accounts that you're visiting, then your personal appearance 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.800 is probably a little bit more important. You're representing your firm, 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:19.840 you're representing yourself. It's another tool you have to well 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:21.919 what all business people are trying to do. Get money 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.160 from something, convince people you're worth paying for. So I 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.440 read a story last year about an accounting firm, Crow 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:32.120 Horror Wath that updated their address code policy. So accounting 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:35.600 is a pretty old school, i'd say industry where they 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:39.040 do have more formal address codes because it's in client services, 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.320 and they updated it with something that's called address for 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:46.440 your Day policy. So it's like, if you are seeing 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:48.840 someone that day, you need to dress in a way 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.840 that reflects that client and what they would want. But 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:53.920 sometimes in accounting you are sitting in front of an 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:57.440 Excel spreadsheet, I presume, and so you could dress more casual. 0:02:57.520 --> 0:02:59.800 They stilled rules you couldn't wear leggings to the office 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.880 or sneakers, but it was under any circumstance. Yeah. Right. 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.200 It was a huge deal for that industry, But also 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.160 is reflective a little bit of this. It's still not 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:11.240 a dress code. It's more up to you. It's about 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:13.040 what your work is. You have to figure out what 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:15.160 to do well. And that also seems to correspond to 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.880 some common sense. Again, if you're going to visit a client, 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:21.280 you're not going to wear your stained Philadelphia eagle sweatshirt. 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:23.680 But if you are coming to the office and you 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:25.400 know that you're basically going to be in there all 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:28.480 day and you're gonna be sitting in front of your computer, yes, 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.240 perhaps a polo shirt and a pair of jeans is 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.120 more than adequate for you to complete your job. And 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:36.800 I think employees really like that because I don't know. 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:38.960 As an employee, I like being treated as someone who 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.720 can make good decisions on my own where yes, but 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.000 but but you know, employers don't always feel that way. 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:47.760 There are accounting firms that one accounting firm I believe 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.680 has business formal Well, you know, I will say this much. 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.680 There is something very easy about a strong dress code. 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:58.800 In some respects. It's the fuzzy ones that leave people guessing. 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:02.640 And maybe there's more room for error because the parameters 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.800 haven't really been defined and so you don't know and 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:07.840 then you come in and realize, oh God, I went 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.600 too far, or I'm out of sync with the rest 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.640 of the room, or what have you. That sort of 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:19.120 illusion of liberty can also breed a certain degree of anxiety. Yeah, 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:21.160 And I think that's one thing that the article does 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:23.640 get right. That New York Times article and to speak 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:25.559 to that anxiety, I want to bring up a friend 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.960 of mine. She's in her late twenties and just started 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.120 on the tenure professor track at a university, and she's 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:34.440 been thinking a lot about her dress code because again, 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.400 that's not an institution that has a formal dress code obviously, 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:39.680 and then she had just been a grad student. Then 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:44.520 you know, grad students where pajamas, and she loves huge clubs, 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:46.839 and she's been thinking a lot about how she wants 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:48.800 to signal that she's not a guy student and she 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.919 is a professor, so she's dressing up more. That makes sense. 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:55.440 So there's no office dress code, but she's still dressing formally, right, 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.320 She's using her clothing to help her achieve something. And 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.280 that's what I think hasn't changed with this article doesn't 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:04.280 quite get at, which is like, yes, there's no specific, 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:08.520 codified uniform, but people are putting on uniforms, maybe now 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.120 more than ever, to signal who they are, what they do, 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.520 and what their clothing says about them. And that's what 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:15.479 our guests are going to talk about today. Today we 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:17.440 have a little bit of a different format. We talked 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.839 to three different people who work in three different industries 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:23.720 about how they use their clothing to signal who they 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:34.479 are at work. Our first guest is Carrie Goldberg. She 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.320 is a lawyer here in New York who often operates 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:40.599 in the shlubby confines of the New York State Supreme Court. 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:43.680 I was drawn to Carry because I read about her 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:45.760 in the New Yorker. They had a great profile of 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:49.200 her work. She defends revenge porn victims. But they had 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:53.640 this paragraph in there that talked about how her industry 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:56.760 tends to be schlumpy. But she stood out because of 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.400 the way she dressed, and she would wear five inch 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:04.240 heels and mini dresses and trench coats, and as we learned, 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:06.000 we talked to her a lot of leather, and I 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:08.600 thought that that was really striking details. So that's why 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:15.039 we have around today. How would you describe your work look? 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:18.520 I would describe my work look as sort of Axl 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:23.760 Rose meets Olivia Pope meets manic pixie dream girl. Maybe 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:29.800 like glam goth lawyer geek. Okay, I'm getting that's a 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.479 very clear picture. I think if you obviously you can't 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:34.400 see Carry right now, but now you have a very 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:36.919 strong idea what would be a typical outfit that would 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.440 live up to that description. I always like to have leather, 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.520 so there's always leather coat or leather leggings. I like 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:49.160 long nails, sharp eyelashes, stiletto heels, like like a lot 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:52.640 of stabbing things in my look. How long have you 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:56.000 been practicing law? I've been a lawyer since two thousand seven, 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.920 so nine years. Have you always dressed this way? Yeah? 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:02.760 So my first job was as a housing court attorney 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.400 representing low income tenants that were being evicted. And there 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:11.480 was this really glamorous landlord tenant attorney named Carmen. Who 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:13.960 I mean it was. It was just this really schlubby 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:17.840 environment housing court is, and but Carmen was this like 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.960 blonde bombshell that would wear Chanel and really stood out. 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.400 And I was like, oh, everyone who knew who Carmen was? 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:26.560 And I was like, oh, maybe I could be like 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.840 the you know, low income tenant attorney version of Carmen. 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:32.520 I didn't like totally emulate Carmen or anything like that, 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:34.960 but I just I kind of made my own version 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:36.640 of that. And it helps you know, if you're a 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.240 new attorney or new at anything, it helps to have 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.040 a look just to make yourself like kind of memorable 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:44.760 beyond being memorable? Is there a reason why you addressed 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:46.840 this way for the type of alaw you practice. I 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.400 represent victims of online harassment, sexual sult so always my 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:53.360 clients are people who are under attack, So there is 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:55.840 sort of an armor to the clothes I wear. I 0:07:55.840 --> 0:08:00.840 feel more protected and protective if I'm in something something 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:04.320 like leather or something something sharp, like sharp heels or 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.920 something that that it could become an attack weapon, which 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.720 I've never had to use in a court environment, but 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.920 that was pre existing before I. Before I started my 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:16.920 law of practice, I dressed like this already. How do 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.240 you think the judges perceive you and what you wear? 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:21.960 Do you think about that? I should think about that. 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.640 I don't really care that much. If I ever thought 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.720 that how I looked was going to have a negative 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.560 impact on my client, I would absolutely scale it back. 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:36.160 And I'm not showing up to court and lingerie and 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:39.560 and Stiletto's. I'm I'm in business attire. It's just got 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:41.720 a bit of an edge. And what about your clients? 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:43.480 How do you think your clients perceived the way you look? 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:47.520 I think they like to feel that they're being protected 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:52.120 by somebody that has a vision and has preferences and opinions, 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:56.360 and that can really be conveyed very easily through clothing 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:58.880 and how somebody looks. And if if somebody looks put 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.480 together and like they're making deliberate decisions just in something 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:05.360 as basic as you know what shirt and choose and 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:08.319 watch their wearing, then there's an assumption that that translates 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.439 to other strategic decisions as well. Kry, I want to 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.080 ask you a question as if I were a recent 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.600 law school grad about to embark on a legal career 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.840 and I come to you as sort of a mentor 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:24.200 and ask you how should I dress for my profession? 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:28.360 Do you have an overall philosophy of how your clothing 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.120 works within your profession. I think the most important thing 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:36.120 is to dress for confidence and not for comfort. People 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.880 often like conflate confidence with comfort, and I just don't 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:44.120 think you need to feel comfortable too in what you're wearing. 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.520 You know you're not going to be wearing your eyes atoners, 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:51.400 slippers and fleece long John's to court. You know you're 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:53.000 not going to feel confident that you have to like 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:55.400 feel like you look good. Well, it's like a power 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:59.240 Suit R version of the power Suit basically yeah, and 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.640 like it's super or a costume. I definitely feel like 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:04.200 when I'm in core or when I need to be 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:08.440 particularly on, I'm putting a costume on, and it's like 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:10.959 it's getting me into the mindset that I need to 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:18.520 be on. Carry is clearly a firm believer in the 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:22.120 work uniform or like costume. I think she. I mean, 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:24.200 as she sort of described in the interview, you know, 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:28.840 she uses artifice and she uses sort of the weaponry 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:32.120 of clothing to put forth a particular image about herself, 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:35.200 even at the expense. I thought quite interestingly of comfort, right, 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:37.200 And it's clearly working for her because she wins and 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.120 has become very high profile. But it's also something she chooses. 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.120 And for our next guest, we talked to somebody who 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:45.960 doesn't quite get to choose what she wears to work. 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.480 Shantiana Bowers is currently a salesperson at the Stephen Allen 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:52.200 Boutique in Tribeca here in New York, and before that 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:56.240 she worked at Madewell. To places that have very specific 0:10:56.320 --> 0:11:04.319 ideas of how you should dress. How would you describe 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:08.640 your work look? Okay, so I have to be a 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:12.880 bit cool. Basically, my coworkers and I we all kind 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:16.120 of had an unspoken understanding about which one of us 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:20.240 hid twitch points um my current stories, Steven Allen. They 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:23.480 do a lot of basics that are slightly elevated, so 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:25.560 we all have to find our own angle. For me, 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:28.800 I'm a little bit quirky but still quite tailored, so 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:31.920 a lot of button downs under sweaters with like a 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:36.440 pleated slack or something, but really funny looking socks and 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.760 like low Oxfords. You said that you kind of negotiate 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:45.280 this with your colleagues, so other people take on different approaches, 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:49.680 different sort of interpretations. Yes, we're all basically whatever store 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.079 that we worked that version of ourselves, So Ed Madewell, 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.600 I was still like kind of relaxed, cool girl Brooklyn, 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.719 but I'm also like an actual New Yorker, So it 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.840 would be like Timbaland's but not really because we can't 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:05.880 actually wear Timbalands there. But yeah, so, can you tell 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.720 us about some of the rules that these retail stores 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.320 have made well wear their rules that you have to 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:15.199 abide by. Oh, totally, but it's mostly dress the look. 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:17.720 You don't actually have to buy it. For a lot 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.800 of the retail stores, so they encourage us to buy 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:23.520 it with different sentives to get different things. They have 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:27.040 contests to keep up moral and things like that. But 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:29.960 what you really have to do is look at the collection, 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.960 look at what you have. Make it work so you 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:35.240 can sell this product to customers instead of them coming 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:37.520 in and being like, hey, you look really cool, but 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.199 you obviously don't shop here. We heard a rumor, I 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:43.080 don't know if this is true. Somebody on our show 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.200 said that people at Madewell have to wear a certain 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.200 amount of layers. Yes, really, what so what is that role? 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:50.839 So the layering rule works if you don't have a collar, 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:52.760 you need to have a jacket. But it's not nearly 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:54.440 as strict as j Cruise. I'm gonna just put that 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:58.800 out there. Yeah, Ja Cruise is like and blazer and 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:04.760 Scott and like it's and top hat and please, you 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.240 are the most tailored man in the world. If you're 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.240 working at is there a big difference between the clothes 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:14.600 you wear to work and the clothes you wear when 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:16.559 you're not at work? Um, when I worked at made 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:21.120 well no, now, yes, okay, how would you describe the difference. 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:23.679 I have to be a lot more tailored now than 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.080 I had to before. I could still be relaxed, but 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.960 it's a lot more pants instead of jeans or a 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.320 fancier sweater than I would normally wear made well, a 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:36.720 little less all around casual, a little bit more elevated casual, 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.360 like a nice a shoe. It's interesting to hear you 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:41.920 talk about how they want you to have pick your 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.400 personal style but then also conformed to the storre. So 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:47.760 I liked when you were talking about, Yeah, like normally, 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.280 like your Brooklyn so you would wear Timberlands, but like, 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:52.679 you can't wear Temberlands it made well, So you have 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:54.600 to conform to that. So how do you, I guess, 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:58.280 how do you negotiate that? Really? You wait and see 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:00.920 what they're going to collaborate the next you. For me, 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.480 I couldn't wear Timblance, but there was a point in 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.520 time when we started selling Doc Martin's, so I got 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:08.679 to figure out at my docks and I was super excited. 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.880 Does the way you dress for a particular retailer attract 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.800 a particular kind of customer among your colleagues? Is it 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:23.080 sort of known or if not expressed, that it's understood, Oh, 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:25.560 you're dressing for these kinds of people who come in 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.120 and somebody else was dressing for a different kind of 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.480 customer who's coming in. We all try our best to 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:34.120 work with a variety of customers, but I tend to 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.040 get more men and usually guys who are lawyers who 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:40.440 need something that they can wear in the office and 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:44.520 also still express their style. So I'm a person who 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:47.520 sells a lot of overcoats in like fun but still 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.520 muted colors. Like, why do you think that? What about 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.600 your person? I saw a lot of overcoats and fun 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.160 muted colors totally. Why do you what about your personal 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.640 style do you think attracts that? Um? I really like 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.920 wearing slightly men's wear inspired things, and I think that 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.280 makes guys very comfortable when it comes to dealing with me. 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:11.480 Some of the other female associates can sometimes seem a 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.920 little bit more, you know, curly, and they have a 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.400 little bit more confidence. Is like, Oh, this girl, I 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:24.280 can ask her about a perislas. It's so interesting that 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:27.960 these retailers have very specific rules, but they still want 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.000 their employees to look like they're interpreting them in their 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:34.080 own individual way, but still in this very specific confine. 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:36.040 There's also I think a practical issue here, which is 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.680 that the retailers are not prepared financially to outfit all 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:42.760 of their salespeople with all of the clothing that they need, 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.760 so instead of taking on that cost, they have this 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.840 sort of fuzzier you should dress like you work here, 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:51.040 but you don't have to use everything we have here 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:52.360 because we're not going to give it to you. But 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:54.400 if you want to buy, some kind of goes back 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:56.920 and forth. But I think you know, interestingly, sometimes it's 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.320 fun to work within those limits. Yeah, a lot of 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:01.880 creative people in general. I used to interview creative people 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.280 in a former job. They love talking about how limits 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:12.320 boundaries what makes you creative? Up happens when the power 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.320 and potential of every employee and leader in your workforce 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.280 is released and corn Fairy can get you there by 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:22.520 aligning your people to your strategy, attracting, developing, engaging, and 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:26.000 rewarding them to reach new heights. With corn Ferry, you 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:29.040 get a partner who truly understands people, leadership, and the 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:31.600 new landscape of work. A partner who knows how to 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.120 take your business up. Learn more at corn Ferry dot com. 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:42.600 Slash up. When it comes to sort of the world 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.120 of creative people and the kinds of clothing that they wear. 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:48.560 Kim Hashtriter has been observing them for decades. She is 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:51.320 the co founder of Paper magazine. She's famous in her 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:55.360 own right for wearing a uniform every single day, variations 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:57.680 on a theme that she came up with probably about 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.440 years ago, And we got to talk to her about 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:04.320 her own style and the style that she's been observing 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:06.520 here in New York and around the world for quite 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:12.959 some time. How would you describe your work style your 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.600 work word from my work wardrobe. I can't even describe 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:17.800 my work what I do. So it's like hard to 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:21.840 describe my work style because my work and my life 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:25.000 are one thing. So there's no difference in my work 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.760 style and my lifestyle, which is not true for a 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.040 lot of people, right they have one uniform for work 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:33.240 and then they have a different uniform. And I've always 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:35.960 been in love with uniforms. So I created a uniform 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:38.000 for myself twenty years ago and I've worn the same 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:43.280 thing every day. Yes, it's based on kind of a 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:47.440 mouse suit, which is my favorite uniform ever. And um, 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:52.160 I love uniforms generally. I love army uniforms. I love 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:56.960 peak coats. I love because their design is based on function. 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:00.560 It's not really decorative to decorative. Really, I don't love 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:05.480 decorative stuff, although I accessorized. It's sometimes fun to throw 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:09.879 in some like pizzas in a decoration sense, or to 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:13.120 make the uniform unique to you. So I can't say 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:16.119 I hate all decorative things. But also I have a 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:21.600 very big personality and um, even paper. When we designed paper, 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:23.840 I wanted it to look generic because what we wrote 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:27.040 about was really wild and outrageous. And I thought that 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.399 if you had a wild and outrageous design and you 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.040 had wild and outrageous content, it would be like two 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:35.679 much wouldn't be the right yan yang balance. But if 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:40.160 you present it in a simple classical way, very wild material, 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:45.720 it's much more more people can read it and understand it. 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.760 Like the original paper was designed very simply in black 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:55.720 and white, generic classically. So I've always been a kind 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:59.800 of I love a yen nin yang and I love um. 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:02.040 I think when you have outrageous ideas, it's good to 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:06.280 like package things simply so that you can get your 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.400 ideas across. So I mean, I know it's like abstract 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.680 what I'm saying, but it kind of filters into also 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:17.200 what I wear. So that's when I just decided one day, okay, 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.960 I went to my friend who used to make suits 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.960 for Steven Sprouse, the designer, and he Steven Sprouse. I 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:26.760 always loved what he did because his clothes were actually 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.639 very classic and plain, but that he did them in 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:34.000 like day glow and wild fabrications. So I love that 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:38.600 kind of um simplicity, but using fabric to kind of 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:42.960 like make it more interesting. So I went to his Taylor, 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:46.399 who I was a friend, and I brought my favorite 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.720 jacket in the world was what was this maud style 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:53.199 jacket that Isaac Mizrahi had designed and I had it 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:56.000 and it had huge flowers all over, but I loved 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:58.720 the shape. And I brought my favorite skirt, which was 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:00.960 the O g Alma motor skirt, and I had my 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.760 friend make patterns of it and together it was kind 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:05.679 of like my version of a mouse suit. That's what 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:07.879 I always said. And I had n't first make it 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:11.800 in the indigo color of mouse suits because just to 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:14.879 see if it worked and it had actually wearing it today, 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.440 this is a version that Levi's, the company, actually made 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:21.959 me one where I sent them the pattern and they 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.560 made me one of Levi's because I thought that would 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:26.879 be cool to have a Levi's version. So when I 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:29.320 realized I loved it and it was really simple and 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.280 it was just a skirt and this jacket, I decided 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.480 to make it like thirty of them, and I made 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:38.159 them for daytime. I made them for evening, but they 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:40.399 were all exactly the same, and they all were simply 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:43.399 like if you I mean Levi's did it with a snap, 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:45.200 so it's a little different, but it has a simple 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:47.760 kind of mouth collar and it's boxing and it has 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:52.159 two pockets. And um I made linen for summer and 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:55.680 all different colors and yes in indigo and in black, 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.240 but also in hot pink and turquoise, and then I 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.240 made for winter. I at it in like a beautiful 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:04.600 I just would get really good fabric and make them, 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:07.000 and then for dressy I'd make them in taffoda, so 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:10.879 i'd have a black tie version. But twenty three years 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:12.720 or so, I've been wearing the same thing. Do you 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:16.040 ever get bored? Never know? We hear a lot about 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:19.520 uniforms now in the tech world. People just not wanting 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:22.840 to think about what they wear. The Steve Jobs uniform, 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:25.480 that's definitely a different twist than what you have. They 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:27.680 do it so they don't have to think about fashion. 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:30.119 Steve Jobs did wear uniform. Didn't you wear levis in 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:33.240 a turtleneck? I mean that's what he's And if you 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:34.760 look a lot of there's a lot of people that 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:39.080 wear uniforms, but visual people. Sometimes I'm very visual, and 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:41.280 as a visual artist, I think Steve Jobs was a 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:44.160 bit very visual person. I think it's more if you're 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:46.760 a visual person that has good taste. I think that 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:49.760 if you're not, it doesn't work as well because then 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:54.560