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Speaker 1: Welcome. It is the Ben Ferguson Show. It is so

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Speaker 1: nice to have you with us live from the White

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Speaker 1: House and sitting in front of me as a woman

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Speaker 1: that has taken on an almost impossible task. I was

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Speaker 1: so excited when I heard this name Linda McMahon. And

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Speaker 1: if you don't know the history of Linda, you need

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Speaker 1: to google it because she has done some amazing things

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Speaker 1: in her career. And you get this job. You get

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Speaker 1: a phone call to become the United States Secretary of Education.

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Speaker 1: How did this even come about? How was the phone

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Speaker 1: call that you received from the President? I got to

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Speaker 1: know the backstory real quick because I think it's so fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Well, good morning, and thank you very much for having me. Ben.

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Speaker 2: It Well, you may or may not recall, but I

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Speaker 2: was the co chair of the transition committee for the President.

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Speaker 2: So we were putting in place all of the different

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Speaker 2: cabinet secretaries, etc. And you know, I'm working on everybody

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Speaker 2: else's department. And the President talks to me and he says, look,

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Speaker 2: he says, I've got the perfect place for you. And

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Speaker 2: I said, oh, okay, what are you thinking? He said,

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Speaker 2: Department of Education. I said, well, you realize that my

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Speaker 2: background is not, you know, in the world of education,

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Speaker 2: although I got my certificate to teach and I was

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Speaker 2: prepared to teach French. I also served on the Connecticut

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Speaker 2: State Board of Education, and then I've been on the

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Speaker 2: board of trustees at Sacred Heart University for sixteen years.

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Speaker 2: I said, so I do have education background. And he said, look,

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Speaker 2: here's what I want to do with the Department of Education.

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Speaker 2: I want to shut it down. And so I laughed.

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Speaker 2: I laughed, and I said, so in other words, excuse me,

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Speaker 2: I said, so, in other words, you want me to

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Speaker 2: preside over my own demise. And he laughed out loud

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Speaker 2: and he said, yep. He said, I do want you

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Speaker 2: to do that. He said, and here's what I need.

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Speaker 2: He said, rather than have an educator in place to

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Speaker 2: do this, what I really need is a business person.

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Speaker 2: I need an executive. I need a leader who knows

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Speaker 2: how to manage and can handle this. He said. We

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Speaker 2: need to return education to the States. He said, I

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Speaker 2: want to take the bureaucracy out of education, and as

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Speaker 2: much money as we're saving and doing that, I want

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Speaker 2: to make sure that the states can maximize, you know,

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Speaker 2: that money and have the programs that they need in place.

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Speaker 2: So he said, so I need you to come on

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Speaker 2: board and do that, and I do that. Yes, II Captain,

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Speaker 2: I'm ready to go.

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Speaker 1: So you get here and you get this new job,

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Speaker 1: and it's an incredible job, and you're putting yourself out

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Speaker 1: of business, which is also like a weird mentality to have.

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Speaker 1: What was the biggest waste of tax dollars that you've

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Speaker 1: uncovered at DOGE And let's start there.

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Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you know they First of all,

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Speaker 2: let me say I welcomed the DOGE group that came

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Speaker 2: in and has been looking at a lot of the

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Speaker 2: wasteful spending that has been going on. I think one

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Speaker 2: of the things that jumped out at me was that

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Speaker 2: we had about six hundred million dollars that we were

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Speaker 2: spending on teacher training programs. Now that's so now that sounds,

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Speaker 2: you know, incredibly like a good amount of money to

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Speaker 2: be spending on a good thing to train our teachers.

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Speaker 2: But what we really were finding was that most of

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Speaker 2: the programs at that point were really focused on DEI training, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and not on what excuse me you would typically be

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Speaker 2: looking at, you know, for teacher training. And so we

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Speaker 2: took back that money, and we shut down that kind

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Speaker 2: of training program. So that was one that just jumped

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Speaker 2: out at me.

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Speaker 1: So is it fair to say the Department of Education?

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Speaker 1: And I have a sister, she's in an inner city

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Speaker 1: school and she's doing the best that she can. My

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Speaker 1: mom was a teacher, my aunt was a principal. Like

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Speaker 1: I come from that world. But what is sad to

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Speaker 1: me is it seems like the Department of Education has

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Speaker 1: basically decided we're going to indoctrinate kids instead of educate kids,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to do it in a way with

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Speaker 1: using taxpayer dollars to indoctrinate them and what we believe

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Speaker 1: in instead of reading, writing, and arithmetic. How far off

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Speaker 1: am I on that from a national standpoint?

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Speaker 2: You know, far off on that at all? And what

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Speaker 2: we have really seen, I mean, think about this, Ben.

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Speaker 2: The Department of Education was established in nineteen eighty and

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Speaker 2: since that time, we have spent over three trillion dollars

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Speaker 2: in education, and our performance scores have continued to go down.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I don't I don't say there haven't

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Speaker 2: been things that have been tried. I mean the Bush

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Speaker 2: administration tried no Child Left Behind. Yeah, Barack Obama tried

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Speaker 2: race to the top, but we're failing in the mission

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Speaker 2: of teaching our our students. And I think the reason

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Speaker 2: for that is we have gotten away from basics. We've

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Speaker 2: gotten away from teaching reading and teaching arithmetic. And so

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Speaker 2: what we're finding in schools that are showing improvement and

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Speaker 2: scores is that they have returned to the science of reading,

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Speaker 2: teaching phonics, teaching repetitive, you know, just memorization like in

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Speaker 2: mathematics for your times table and things like that, and

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Speaker 2: then building upon that base. You know, up through third

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Speaker 2: grade you are learning to read, and after third grade

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Speaker 2: you're reading to learn, and if you can read, you're

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Speaker 2: not going to be able to learn. So we found

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Speaker 2: that a lot of the fall off, if you will,

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Speaker 2: in education is because we're not teaching the basics, and

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Speaker 2: so a little return to that basics is great. Now

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Speaker 2: a lot of other things it can be introduced that

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Speaker 2: can be helpful, like AI yes, because they're how.

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Speaker 1: Far behind are we on technology?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: I mean just because it seems like we're back twenty

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Speaker 1: years ago and all of a sudden, now are thirty

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Speaker 1: years ago in technology and we're having these kids go

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Speaker 1: out in the world. I laughed. The other day, I

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Speaker 1: was talking to a group of students and the students

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Speaker 1: said that at they're high school, they were still teaching

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Speaker 1: them to do photography and develop film. And You're like,

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Speaker 1: for what reason that doesn't happen anymore?

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Speaker 2: You're not going to use is that going to be

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Speaker 2: their major when they go off? Right a career path

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Speaker 2: that they want to be on. If it's a career path,

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Speaker 2: they want to be on them off for that right.

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Speaker 1: However, it's digital now, pictures are digital, and they're like,

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Speaker 1: the teacher has been there and said, well, this is

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Speaker 1: how we've always done it. That was a sponsor to students.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, we're paying that salary to someone who's literally

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Speaker 1: saying I refuse to move forward.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just think that just goes to the

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Speaker 2: bigger problem of how I think education is not in

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Speaker 2: touch with the communities. It's not in touch with the

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Speaker 2: industries that we need. And that's what we need to

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Speaker 2: make sure of that we are educating our students for

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Speaker 2: you know, for their for their livelihood. What you know,

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Speaker 2: what what does industry need? What does the community need? Uh,

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Speaker 2: You'll hear most universities say that we want to make sure,

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Speaker 2: we can keep students in the community when we're when

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Speaker 2: we're training them, but if you don't understand what the community,

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Speaker 2: what industry, what business needs, what or what technology needs,

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Speaker 2: et cetera, you can't construct the proper curriculum to fill

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Speaker 2: you know, that need, and you'll find we won't be successful.

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Speaker 1: When I was going through school, and again I came

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Speaker 1: from a family of educators that the dream, the goal

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Speaker 1: was always you go to college. Right, you want to

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Speaker 1: be successful, you go to college. I think think that

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Speaker 1: has been a detriment to this new generation of students.

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Speaker 1: I think there's tradesmen, there's crafts, there's certain things that

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Speaker 1: you can go into, and this obsession would just go

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Speaker 1: to college no matter what, which is also I think

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Speaker 1: we're one of the biggest problems is in public education.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of kids and if you just look

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Speaker 1: at the data, they're not going to go to college,

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Speaker 1: but they're not prepared to do anything when they leave

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Speaker 1: high school. Is that one of the biggest things that

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Speaker 1: we're missing as well that you've seen that we've got

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Speaker 1: to do a better job of preparing these kids for

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Speaker 1: real world and trade and I mean, there's great jobs

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Speaker 1: out there, that you don't have to go to college

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Speaker 1: for and you can make a great living if they're

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Speaker 1: prepared for them. But we're not doing that either.

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Speaker 2: No, we're not about eight million open jobs in the country,

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Speaker 2: and we don't have a skilled workforce ready to go

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Speaker 2: into those jobs. One of the things that I talk

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Speaker 2: about when I'm traveling, and I am traveling to many

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Speaker 2: states visiting schools to see what kind of different curriculum

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Speaker 2: is being taught, both in lower in middle schools and

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Speaker 2: then you know high schools as well, and we're not

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Speaker 2: preparing students. And I think we have to change the

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Speaker 2: culture of education in our country from just exactly what

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Speaker 2: you were talking about. For your college is not necessary

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Speaker 2: anymore for many of the skills that we should be teaching.

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Speaker 2: And there are certain degrees that obviously do require college

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Speaker 2: education if you're going to be a doctor or a lawyer,

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Speaker 2: or an engineer and that sort of thing. However, there

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Speaker 2: are many career paths that don't require a four year

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Speaker 2: college education. If you're going to be a skilled tradesman,

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Speaker 2: a plumber and electrician, an h VAC technician, sophisticated manufacturing

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Speaker 2: like CSR, then you can get certificates that are much

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Speaker 2: shorter than four you. As a matter of fact, I

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Speaker 2: am a strong proponent of short term PEL grants to

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Speaker 2: to help get people in the workforce faster. So that's

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Speaker 2: really what I would like to see. And you have

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Speaker 2: to be in touch with your community and with the

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Speaker 2: needs of manufacturing, with the needs of industry, so that

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Speaker 2: we can consumert what an other idea.

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Speaker 1: Right, you work with people in the community where those

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Speaker 1: jobs are, whether you're in a manufacturing city or an

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Speaker 1: it citty or a place like that. So let me

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Speaker 1: ask you another question. This goes back to the big

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Speaker 1: issue of what does it look like if you guys

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Speaker 1: shut all this down and the power goes back to

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Speaker 1: the state. And this is a really important one because

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of parents right now that kids are

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Speaker 1: in failing schools and they really are intrigued by the

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Speaker 1: idea as well of school choice is part of shutting

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Speaker 1: down the Department of Education, going back to the states,

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Speaker 1: giving the states the empowerment to be able to do

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Speaker 1: things like that.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, the President does not want to see any child

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Speaker 2: trapped in a failing school, and that's he has talked

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Speaker 2: about that forever. That's why I'm such a strong proponent

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Speaker 2: of charter schools, public schools, homeschooling, magnet schools. There is

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Speaker 2: no one size fits all for education.

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Speaker 1: What amazing idea we have an administration actually likes parents,

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Speaker 1: even in homeschooling. That hasn't I was homeschool when I

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Speaker 1: was younger, and the disdain from the federal government for

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Speaker 1: homeschooling has been shocking for decades.

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Speaker 2: No, it's absolutely critical that we structure our education to

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Speaker 2: fit the child. And that's one of the reasons why

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Speaker 2: is we see technology that can be utilized in many

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Speaker 2: more ways. I mean from AI. If you think we

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Speaker 2: can have almost a personal tutor in the classroom one

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Speaker 2: on one. I saw a demonstration of this last week

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Speaker 2: that there was a teacher in the classroom at twenty

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Speaker 2: five students. She had on her screen the twenty five

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Speaker 2: students who were each getting individual instruction in math, and

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Speaker 2: she could tell which student was not keeping up on

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Speaker 2: the exercise and go to that student and repeat things

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Speaker 2: or reprogram and it was just amazing to see. And

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Speaker 2: you'll see scores start to come up much quicker. Children

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Speaker 2: can learn much faster when they're taught in the ways

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Speaker 2: that they can learn, so as we shut down the

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Speaker 2: Department of Education. I want to make sure that best

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Speaker 2: practices are being shown to those states, that we provide

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Speaker 2: the states with the tools to move forward, so because

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Speaker 2: that's how they'll have their greatest success, and then putting

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Speaker 2: the money to them to help support those programs.

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Speaker 1: So what a success look like? How do you define

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Speaker 1: us at the Department of Education for your tenure moving forward?

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Speaker 1: Is that shutting it down or is that changing the

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Speaker 1: narrative and giving and going and working with these states?

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Speaker 1: And what's the timeline look like as well?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's not mutually exclusive. It's not either or were

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Speaker 2: clearly are going to close down the Department of Education,

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Speaker 2: but that is going to take an Act of Congress.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to have to work with Congress. And

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Speaker 2: I've said all along that I want Congress to be

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Speaker 2: my partner in doing this.

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Speaker 1: How's the reception been there? I mean, I see a

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Speaker 1: lot of these guys in Congress, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: pressure from unions. What does the back room conversation of

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Speaker 1: this look like, because at first, I'm sure when you

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Speaker 1: said it, there was a lot of people in Congress like,

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Speaker 1: hold on a second, dial it down.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty divided at the moment, but I think that

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Speaker 2: I'm hoping absolutely that they will be my partner'shen I

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Speaker 2: show them that I believe the programs that we're going

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Speaker 2: to put forth and how we're going to do it

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Speaker 2: will strengthen education. Because the President believes, as do I,

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Speaker 2: that the best education is that closest to the student.

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Speaker 2: So if we can provide the best practices and the

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Speaker 2: tools for those best practices, then I think we're going

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Speaker 2: to raise the scores of kids in those states and

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Speaker 2: money will be better spent.

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Speaker 1: So when you work at the state level, who are

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Speaker 1: your biggest allies? There is it governors and state legislatures

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Speaker 1: that people in education.

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Speaker 2: It's all of the above, but primarily the people when

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Speaker 2: I go and talk and meet with are principles of schools.

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Speaker 2: There may be some of the local superintendents. Parents have come.

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Speaker 2: I was there. Let's see where it was. I was

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Speaker 2: in Las Vegas this past Friday, which was a holiday

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Speaker 2: for schools, but I had parents, students, teachers coming in

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Speaker 2: to meet with me to show me what their school

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Speaker 2: was doing and about the things that they needed, and

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Speaker 2: it was incredibly refreshing to see that parental involvement is

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Speaker 2: one of the keys. I think that was the silver

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Speaker 2: lining of COVID. Parental involvement is really one of the

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Speaker 2: keys to show how they are supporting their students and

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Speaker 2: understanding what they want the curriculum to look like.

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Speaker 1: It seems like the mentality that you're advocating for is

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Speaker 1: you know, it was in the last administration parents that

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Speaker 1: showed up at school board meetings were considered domestic terrorists

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Speaker 1: if they were saying something you didn't want to hear.

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Speaker 1: You're now saying, I want to welcome parents back in

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Speaker 1: the educational process. Is that part of the core goal

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Speaker 1: as well?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, if you don't have parental support in the local

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Speaker 2: school systems, it makes the success of teaching I think

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Speaker 2: in the schools nowhere near what it is when you

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Speaker 2: see parental involvement. I mean, parents have rights, They have

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Speaker 2: a right to look at what kind of curriculum is

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Speaker 2: being taught in the schools, whether it's appropriate for their child.

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Speaker 2: They should be involved, But they also have to be

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Speaker 2: involved in supporting the men's school for making sure they're

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Speaker 2: doing their homework for all of those things as well,

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Speaker 2: And so hopefully we're making that connection a much more

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Speaker 2: solid as well.

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Speaker 1: Final question for you, and this is one of those

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Speaker 1: that I think is so important to the people that

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Speaker 1: listen to this show. There's a lot of people that say,

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Speaker 1: I want a blueprint of what you need for me

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Speaker 1: as a parent. Is it going to school board meetings?

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Speaker 1: Is it going to my legislature, Is it calling my

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Speaker 1: congressman my center. You clearly need support because Congress has

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Speaker 1: to go along with you, but they also need to

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Speaker 1: advocate for supporting their state and their local municipalities. So

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Speaker 1: if you're a mom listing right now and your kids

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Speaker 1: in a failing school, your a dad that it says, hey,

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Speaker 1: my kids in a failing school, tell me what I

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Speaker 1: need to do. You're in charge. What are you asking

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Speaker 1: for me? What can they do as a parent to

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Speaker 1: get involved?

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Speaker 2: I think the two best things that they can do,

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Speaker 2: first of all, is to really be involved locally, because

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Speaker 2: that's really where it happens. It's at their school or

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Speaker 2: in their town or in their community. And if they're

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Speaker 2: in a failing school and there's another school that is potential,

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Speaker 2: whether it's a charter school or a private school, and

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Speaker 2: they have the opportunity to move their child into that school.

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Speaker 2: But in order to have that opportunity. The legislation has

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Speaker 2: to be in place for them to be able to

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Speaker 2: do that, and so they have to work locally. They

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Speaker 2: also have to call their local They also have to

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Speaker 2: call their US representatives and senators as well as their

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Speaker 2: local representatives and senators because it's legislation, but it's time,

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Speaker 2: it's effort. But be involved, be involved.

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Speaker 1: And that includes school choice advocating for THO as well.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I am a strong proponent, as is the President

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Speaker 2: for school choice. That's why he has been such a

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Speaker 2: strong proponent for charter schools. And I've been visiting some

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Speaker 2: charter schools recently on a couple of states that I've

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Speaker 2: been in to see the programs that they're putting in place,

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Speaker 2: and they are They're pretty magnificent.

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Speaker 1: It's incredible, it's refreshing. I hope this gives people and

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Speaker 1: moms that and dads are listening, grandparents hope that we're

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Speaker 1: going to actually have a real impact. You've got a

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Speaker 1: long haul ahead of you.

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Speaker 2: It is a long haul, but and I'll tell you know,

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Speaker 2: a lot of folks look at what we're doing and say, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, the Department of Education is really looking to

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Speaker 2: close down public schools couldn't be farther from the truth.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the lies. And we saw that right away,

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Speaker 1: and that was not the goal here. It was just

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Speaker 1: to say we want to get rid of the bureaucracy.

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Speaker 1: That am I wrong in saying it that way?

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Speaker 2: Get rid of the bureaucracy. But you know, rising tide

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Speaker 2: lifts all boats. Schools can be competitive, curriculum can be competitive,

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Speaker 2: and what we have seen and one of the other

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Speaker 2: lives that if you will is you're taking money away

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Speaker 2: from public schools and that's not the case either.

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Speaker 1: Lastly, and then I know you got to go, but

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you, this is this something that

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Speaker 1: you ever thought would be part of your legacy? And

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Speaker 1: how exciting is this to say I am going to

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Speaker 1: maybe get to do something that is grand when it

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Speaker 1: comes to redefining how we educate kids in America.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was certainly something that I had contemplated prior

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Speaker 2: to the President asking me to take on this role.

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Speaker 2: But the more that I've gotten into it and thought

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Speaker 2: about it, and I really do believe that if my

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Speaker 2: legacy could be to help the president be the education

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Speaker 2: president and help raise levels of education and to do

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Speaker 2: what his goal is, which is to provide equal access

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Speaker 2: to excellent education to every student in the country.

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Speaker 1: Lend him Man, United States Secretary of Education, a pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for coming on, don't forget. Share this podcast

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Speaker 1: with your family and friends, share it on social media, please,

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Speaker 1: and I'll see you back here tomorrow