Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: When the going gets tough, the tough must get going,
Speaker 2: especially when lead has become misleaders and ment has become tormentos.
Speaker 3: When trinamo exppression becomes.
Speaker 2: The target of suppression, opposition becomes our position.
Speaker 4: That was the sound of Bobby Wyne's twenty sixteen hit Setuka.
Speaker 4: In it, he sings the lines when the going gets tough,
Speaker 4: the tough must get going, especially when leaders become misleaders
Speaker 4: and mentors become tormentors. It's the sort of political conviction
Speaker 4: that has come to define the controversial musician turned activists
Speaker 4: public life for decades now, and even prompted him to
Speaker 4: run for the country's highest office in both twenty twenty
Speaker 4: one and twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1: We know that when the people have Uganda rise to
Speaker 1: the occasion and demand for what is right, they will
Speaker 1: get it. This has happened in Madagascait, as upened in Soudan,
Speaker 1: it is happening in Iran, and it definitely can happen
Speaker 1: in Uganda.
Speaker 4: It's a fascinating story and one that's scripped people around
Speaker 4: the world, everyone from members of the band Coldplay to
Speaker 4: world leaders have spoken out about the situation in Uganda,
Speaker 4: and that's why I wanted to follow up with Bobby
Speaker 4: Wine himself to understand his side of the story. Now
Speaker 4: that it's been just a few months since the election
Speaker 4: and just after the inauguration of President Musevane. You'll hear
Speaker 4: my conversation with Wine in just a minute, But first,
Speaker 4: for anyone unfamiliar with his story, Bobby Wine, his real
Speaker 4: name is Robert Chagulani Sisatamu, has become a major part
Speaker 4: of Uganda's national story, christening himself the quote ghetto President,
Speaker 4: He's disrupted the country's politics after entering the field a
Speaker 4: decade ago. In that time, he's also been imprisoned and
Speaker 4: faced several criminal charges. Right now, Wine isn't hiding fearing
Speaker 4: for his life after a disputed presidential election in January,
Speaker 4: following what he says he knew he had become a target.
Speaker 5: I think all of you, fellow u Ghanan Suaf, concealed
Speaker 5: and protected me for all this time when the regime
Speaker 5: was looking for me. Those of you who fed me,
Speaker 5: those who clothed me, and those who offered me shelta.
Speaker 3: I will not mention your names, but God bless you.
Speaker 4: So on today's podcast, we'll get the thoughts of Bobby
Speaker 4: Wine himself on why his political perspectives have so engaged
Speaker 4: young voters in Uganda, his relationship with the current administration,
Speaker 4: and really what's next for him Now. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja
Speaker 4: and this is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing you one
Speaker 4: story each week from the continent, driving the future of
Speaker 4: global growth with the context only Bloomberg can provide. A
Speaker 4: few days ago, I was able to speak to Bobby Wine,
Speaker 4: leader of the opposition, currently hiding outside of the country.
Speaker 4: According to Wine, his party won the twenty twenty six
Speaker 4: Ugandan elections. During our conversation, Bobby talked me through his
Speaker 4: version of events following January's election. I started by asking
Speaker 4: what he thinks about the recent passing of a law
Speaker 4: in Uganda which will impose harsh penalties on those receiving
Speaker 4: foreign funds without clearance from the government.
Speaker 2: The Huganan government is known for enacting laws targeting individuals.
Speaker 2: A short while ago, they enacted a law called Public
Speaker 2: Order Management Act targeting the former opposition leader, doctor tizabsi Je,
Speaker 2: restricting people to meet without the clearance of the police.
Speaker 2: Now they've enacted this law targeting myself and other forces
Speaker 2: of change, all other dissidents that are not in the country,
Speaker 2: trying to cob political engagements outside the country. After cutting
Speaker 2: off all funds that is legally, unconstruedrationally allocated to the opposition,
Speaker 2: now they're trying to incapacitate the opposition by stopping any
Speaker 2: funding unless it goes through the minister. In this law,
Speaker 2: I must also mention that it is provided that any
Speaker 2: Uganan that leaves the country is referred to as a foreigner,
Speaker 2: and the Uganans that are living outside the country that
Speaker 2: send money back home to the people, the people that
Speaker 2: receive that money are regarded to as agents of foreigners.
Speaker 2: This is meant to cut down all funding, to incapacitate
Speaker 2: the opposition and to maintain regime survival. It is one
Speaker 2: of those embarrassing laws that are used by tyrants, by
Speaker 2: authoritative leaders to ensure that they incapacitate the opposition.
Speaker 4: How do you sustain a party then, if this is
Speaker 4: in fact the law now of the country.
Speaker 2: Well, we were told by Martin Luther King that when
Speaker 2: a law is unjust, it is not only right to
Speaker 2: disobey or to break that law, but it becomes a
Speaker 2: moral duty to break that law. So it will become
Speaker 2: a moral duty for Uganans to creative to creatively break
Speaker 2: that law. Of course, it's going to be challenged in court.
Speaker 2: But because the judicial system is also in the pocket
Speaker 2: of Jeromo SEVENI, the Uganan dictator, you know, there's no
Speaker 2: hope even in the law. The only option by Uganans
Speaker 2: is to ensure that they remove that regime so that
Speaker 2: we can be able to repeal all those oppressive laws.
Speaker 4: Bobby, can you talk to us a little bit about
Speaker 4: the time after the elections which you and your party
Speaker 4: have have disputed the final results. What can you tell
Speaker 4: us about that time for.
Speaker 3: You well to bring the world to speed.
Speaker 2: I was a presidential candidate and I won the election
Speaker 2: in Uganda, although the electoral Commission, which is appointed by
Speaker 2: General Museveni declared mussevene without showing any results, and up
Speaker 2: to now the Electoral Commission in Uganda.
Speaker 3: Has failed to upload the results.
Speaker 2: So General mu Sevene was declared winner without any results
Speaker 2: that were provided.
Speaker 3: But not only that, we went into that.
Speaker 2: Election with the internet completely switched off, with the opposition
Speaker 2: leaders all abducted and held in prison, including my three
Speaker 2: deputy presidents. One of them is still in prison being
Speaker 2: charged for terrorism after the military attacked his house.
Speaker 3: And shot and killed ten people in his house.
Speaker 2: Immediately after my wife and I cast our ballot, we
Speaker 2: were placed under house arrest. The day after we were raided,
Speaker 2: I escaped from my house, although my wife was brutally tortured.
Speaker 2: I remained in hiding as I was pursued by the
Speaker 2: military for close to two months until I was able
Speaker 2: to escape my country. Now I'm in the United States,
Speaker 2: having run out of my country, being pursued not privately
Speaker 2: by publically by the Chief of Defense Forces, who is
Speaker 2: the son of the President.
Speaker 3: And here we are now.
Speaker 2: The world should note that MUSSEVENI has been in power
Speaker 2: for forty years. He took over power in nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: six and is still in power today.
Speaker 4: How were you able to escape, Barby.
Speaker 2: Well, I should say, by the grace of God and
Speaker 2: by the assistance of many Ugandans who shielded me and
Speaker 2: protected me from danger. And these Ugandans include many security
Speaker 2: officers and people in security angles that gave me the
Speaker 2: information that I needed to keep safe until I was
Speaker 2: able to leave the country.
Speaker 4: Still thilly, so that security within the administration that you're
Speaker 4: saying so ported you leaving the country.
Speaker 2: True, many individuals in the police and in the military
Speaker 2: disagree with the way our country has been run because
Speaker 2: our country has been reduced to a family property where
Speaker 2: seven is the president, his wife is a minister for education,
Speaker 2: his son is the chief of defense forces, and largely
Speaker 2: his brother controls the biggest budget, and all the institutions
Speaker 2: of state are controlled by one family. Many Ugannans disagree
Speaker 2: with the way our country is being run down, and
Speaker 2: therefore they silently sighed and sympathize with those that are
Speaker 2: fighting for change.
Speaker 4: In the past, Bobby, you've pushed for international aid cuts
Speaker 4: in an effort to what you say, not support oppression.
Speaker 4: Are you calling for that now?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, we are calling for targeted sanctions against those individuals
Speaker 2: that abuse rights, that subvert democracy and the rule of law.
Speaker 2: We have seen the United States and many other countries
Speaker 2: sanctioning those that violate human rights. The most recent is
Speaker 2: the former president of Congo. However, in Uganda, they're not
Speaker 2: hiding it. In Uganda, people get killed and there's a
Speaker 2: boast to it. The son of General Museveni tortures people
Speaker 2: live on Twitter for example, my personal bodyguard was abducted
Speaker 2: by him and tortured, and he tweeted and continued to
Speaker 2: tweet his naked pictures. Women erept they're raided, their strip naked,
Speaker 2: their dignity is violated under It is not being done
Speaker 2: in hiding. It is being done, you know publically. One
Speaker 2: of the tweets, the chief of Defense Forces in Uganda
Speaker 2: admitted to killing twenty three of the members of my
Speaker 2: party and was praying that I'm the twenty fourth dead
Speaker 2: body on his hands. So these and many others I
Speaker 2: thought as opposed to evoke the moral conscience of the
Speaker 2: moral world, the free world, not to be part of this.
Speaker 2: For many decades, the United States has been funding the
Speaker 2: regame in Uganda up to the tune of one billion
Speaker 2: US dollars annually. We are calling for the United States
Speaker 2: to either cut these funds or to put conditions of
Speaker 2: respect for democrats, a human rights, and the rule of
Speaker 2: law to these fundings, or else they will come off
Speaker 2: like partners in crime.
Speaker 4: We contacted Uganda's government for a response to the claims
Speaker 4: made by Bobby Wine in this interview. In a statement,
Speaker 4: government spokesman Alan Kasuja rejected suggestions that the recently passed
Speaker 4: Protection of Sovereignty Act was aimed at Bobby Wanne or
Speaker 4: the opposition, calling such claims quote absolute rubbish. Kasuja also
Speaker 4: said President Yowarimseventi was legitimately elected and argued that any
Speaker 4: concerns about the election should have been pursued through the courts.
Speaker 4: Responding to Bobby Wine's call for targeted sanctions, Kasuja said
Speaker 4: Uganda's internal contradictions and challenges can be solved by ugandans.
Speaker 4: Uganda's Electoral Commission has previously said it follows the law
Speaker 4: and does not favor any political side. The military has
Speaker 4: also rejected allegations that it unfairly targeted opposition supporters, saying
Speaker 4: only people suspected of committing crimes were detained. Stick with us,
Speaker 4: We're going to take a quick break. In a moment,
Speaker 4: we'll hear from our senior editor for Europe, Middle East
Speaker 4: and Africa on the news desk at David Malinga to
Speaker 4: get his thoughts on Bobby Wine's current situation.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back.
Speaker 4: Welcome back. We are going to talk a bit more
Speaker 4: about Bobby Wine and the current political context of ugan
Speaker 4: In politics and joining me now is our senior editor
Speaker 4: for Your Middle East in Africa on the news desk,
Speaker 4: David Malinga.
Speaker 3: We've just heard.
Speaker 4: From Bobby Wine himself about his now decade long story
Speaker 4: in terms of Ugan in politics. But what's the latest
Speaker 4: in terms of the political situation in Uganda that listeners
Speaker 4: might need to know and also the current attitude towards
Speaker 4: him from the administration.
Speaker 6: Well, when the president was sworn in his speech, he
Speaker 6: congregulated everyone who participated in the election, including the opposition parties.
Speaker 6: But when it came to Bobby Wyne's party, nope, he
Speaker 6: said that they were acting in controversion of the law.
Speaker 6: So for as far as is concerned, and he feels
Speaker 6: like and you know, the government his regime feels like
Speaker 6: Bobby Wine was acting out of the law. I think
Speaker 6: he was referring to some of the things Bobby Wine
Speaker 6: did pre election when he told his supporters when you
Speaker 6: come out and vote, try and protect and guard the
Speaker 6: vote as well. Don't just your vote and Galway and
Speaker 6: you know, think it's all going to be all right.
Speaker 6: So I think Formust seventy he interpreted that as Bobby
Speaker 6: Wine inciting and we saw that the regime responded in
Speaker 6: overwhelming measure, and as you know, after the election, Bobby
Speaker 6: Wine was contained to his home and his family before
Speaker 6: he managed to slip out and later fled the.
Speaker 4: Country, which is something the administration is looking into themselves.
Speaker 4: I wonder when we look at the popularity of Bobby Wine,
Speaker 4: how would you say the popularities are split up? Is
Speaker 4: it young people supporting Wine? Who are his supporters?
Speaker 6: I mean, historically you would say it is split for
Speaker 6: the ruling party between the match older people who have
Speaker 6: been supporters of President Mussevini from way back, and also
Speaker 6: these are most of the people who stay upcountry and
Speaker 6: in the villages, and then for Bobby Wyane it would
Speaker 6: be more young people and people who are living in
Speaker 6: the urban areas. That is kind of the historical split,
Speaker 6: but it's a bit checker to be honest. Bobo Wyne's
Speaker 6: story is quite a remarkable one. I mean, he came
Speaker 6: up and against all odds going into politics, and he
Speaker 6: made a name for himself even before getting into politics
Speaker 6: as a musician, and he had businesses he was running
Speaker 6: and was doing well and then got into politics. So
Speaker 6: many of the young people he grew up with in
Speaker 6: his generation identified with him, and he still has a
Speaker 6: big chunk of that constituency.
Speaker 4: I want to ask you really quickly where the country
Speaker 4: finds itself, because it's about to become an oil producer.
Speaker 4: The country is somewhat growing, maybe not at the levels
Speaker 4: that it should be. Where would you say that the
Speaker 4: country is at.
Speaker 6: If you look at, you know, the economy now it's
Speaker 6: expected to grow. Yugan is one of the countries that
Speaker 6: has managed to keep its inflation d at bay. It's
Speaker 6: a little bit slower than some of its peers. That's
Speaker 6: partly because some of the step of foods, you know,
Speaker 6: like the bananas, are not important, which means that you
Speaker 6: at least have a small relief in terms of that
Speaker 6: important inflation. I mean, the currents they could have probably
Speaker 6: been much worse were it not to be that the
Speaker 6: central Bank at least has a little bit of firepower
Speaker 6: to regulate.
Speaker 4: David, maybe, just lastly, what is it that you're looking
Speaker 4: for next? Just back to my conversation with Bobby, he
Speaker 4: is defiant in continuing to push his own agenda forward.
Speaker 4: What are you watching for now that we do have
Speaker 4: a new term for President Musse seventy and yet biggest
Speaker 4: challenger still on the international stage really condemning them.
Speaker 6: I think the country is at crossroads now. It's going
Speaker 6: to be a really important term this next five years
Speaker 6: because it's getting into a political transition where it has
Speaker 6: to start preparing for change in leadership. So it's inevitable
Speaker 6: that that conversation will happen about you know what happens
Speaker 6: after seven and who has been in power for more
Speaker 6: than forty years and in there, the transformation is going
Speaker 6: to be the economic one, Like you said, when you
Speaker 6: kinda starts producing oil and this revenue starts coming in,
Speaker 6: it's going to be important how this money is managed
Speaker 6: and how that is going to help shipe the fortunes
Speaker 6: of the country.
Speaker 4: No one else gotter I'd rather talk to you about this.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for being on the podcast with
Speaker 4: us this week. Is David Malinga, our senior editor for
Speaker 4: Your Middle East and Africa on the news desk, and
Speaker 4: you can read more of our reporting about and of
Speaker 4: course Uganda across Bloomberg platforms. Now here's some of the
Speaker 4: other stories we've been following across the region this week.
Speaker 4: Shipping traffic in the Strait of Hormuz remained at a
Speaker 4: standstill with oil rising after US President Donald Trump rejected
Speaker 4: Iran's latest offer and suggested the ceasefire in their war
Speaker 4: may not hold. Trump stopped short of signaling the US
Speaker 4: would resume military attacks as he previously threatened, and said
Speaker 4: reaching a diplomatic solution is quote very possible. And Orange
Speaker 4: plans to double its solar powered based stations across Africa
Speaker 4: as the fallout from the Iran war makes renewable energy
Speaker 4: investments more attractive, its CEO, Christelle Hedemann said in an
Speaker 4: interview in Nairobi. Rising fuel prices because of the war
Speaker 4: in Iran and a lack of reliable power in parts
Speaker 4: of the continent make the switch vital for the company.
Speaker 4: You can follow these stories across Bloomberg Class, including the
Speaker 4: Next African Newsletter. Will put a link to that in
Speaker 4: the show notes. This program was produced by Adrian Bradley
Speaker 4: and tia Adebayo. Don't forget to follow and review the
Speaker 4: show wherever you usually get your podcasts, But for now
Speaker 4: I'm Jennifer's Abisanja. Thanks as always for listening.