WEBVTT - Bobi Wine On The Battle for Uganda's Future (Correct)

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>When the going gets tough, the tough must get going,

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<v Speaker 2>especially when lead has become misleaders and ment has become tormentos.

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<v Speaker 3>When trinamo exppression becomes.

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<v Speaker 2>The target of suppression, opposition becomes our position.

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<v Speaker 4>That was the sound of Bobby Wyne's twenty sixteen hit Setuka.

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<v Speaker 4>In it, he sings the lines when the going gets tough,

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<v Speaker 4>the tough must get going, especially when leaders become misleaders

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<v Speaker 4>and mentors become tormentors. It's the sort of political conviction

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<v Speaker 4>that has come to define the controversial musician turned activists

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<v Speaker 4>public life for decades now, and even prompted him to

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<v Speaker 4>run for the country's highest office in both twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 4>one and twenty twenty six.

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<v Speaker 1>We know that when the people have Uganda rise to

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<v Speaker 1>the occasion and demand for what is right, they will

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<v Speaker 1>get it. This has happened in Madagascait, as upened in Soudan,

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<v Speaker 1>it is happening in Iran, and it definitely can happen

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<v Speaker 1>in Uganda.

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<v Speaker 4>It's a fascinating story and one that's scripped people around

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<v Speaker 4>the world, everyone from members of the band Coldplay to

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<v Speaker 4>world leaders have spoken out about the situation in Uganda,

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<v Speaker 4>and that's why I wanted to follow up with Bobby

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<v Speaker 4>Wine himself to understand his side of the story. Now

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<v Speaker 4>that it's been just a few months since the election

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<v Speaker 4>and just after the inauguration of President Musevane. You'll hear

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<v Speaker 4>my conversation with Wine in just a minute, But first,

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<v Speaker 4>for anyone unfamiliar with his story, Bobby Wine, his real

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<v Speaker 4>name is Robert Chagulani Sisatamu, has become a major part

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<v Speaker 4>of Uganda's national story, christening himself the quote ghetto President,

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<v Speaker 4>He's disrupted the country's politics after entering the field a

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<v Speaker 4>decade ago. In that time, he's also been imprisoned and

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<v Speaker 4>faced several criminal charges. Right now, Wine isn't hiding fearing

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<v Speaker 4>for his life after a disputed presidential election in January,

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<v Speaker 4>following what he says he knew he had become a target.

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<v Speaker 5>I think all of you, fellow u Ghanan Suaf, concealed

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<v Speaker 5>and protected me for all this time when the regime

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<v Speaker 5>was looking for me. Those of you who fed me,

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<v Speaker 5>those who clothed me, and those who offered me shelta.

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<v Speaker 3>I will not mention your names, but God bless you.

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<v Speaker 4>So on today's podcast, we'll get the thoughts of Bobby

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<v Speaker 4>Wine himself on why his political perspectives have so engaged

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<v Speaker 4>young voters in Uganda, his relationship with the current administration,

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<v Speaker 4>and really what's next for him Now. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja

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<v Speaker 4>and this is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing you one

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<v Speaker 4>story each week from the continent, driving the future of

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<v Speaker 4>global growth with the context only Bloomberg can provide. A

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<v Speaker 4>few days ago, I was able to speak to Bobby Wine,

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<v Speaker 4>leader of the opposition, currently hiding outside of the country.

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<v Speaker 4>According to Wine, his party won the twenty twenty six

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<v Speaker 4>Ugandan elections. During our conversation, Bobby talked me through his

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<v Speaker 4>version of events following January's election. I started by asking

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<v Speaker 4>what he thinks about the recent passing of a law

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<v Speaker 4>in Uganda which will impose harsh penalties on those receiving

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<v Speaker 4>foreign funds without clearance from the government.

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<v Speaker 2>The Huganan government is known for enacting laws targeting individuals.

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<v Speaker 2>A short while ago, they enacted a law called Public

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<v Speaker 2>Order Management Act targeting the former opposition leader, doctor tizabsi Je,

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<v Speaker 2>restricting people to meet without the clearance of the police.

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<v Speaker 2>Now they've enacted this law targeting myself and other forces

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<v Speaker 2>of change, all other dissidents that are not in the country,

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<v Speaker 2>trying to cob political engagements outside the country. After cutting

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<v Speaker 2>off all funds that is legally, unconstruedrationally allocated to the opposition,

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<v Speaker 2>now they're trying to incapacitate the opposition by stopping any

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<v Speaker 2>funding unless it goes through the minister. In this law,

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<v Speaker 2>I must also mention that it is provided that any

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<v Speaker 2>Uganan that leaves the country is referred to as a foreigner,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Uganans that are living outside the country that

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<v Speaker 2>send money back home to the people, the people that

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<v Speaker 2>receive that money are regarded to as agents of foreigners.

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<v Speaker 2>This is meant to cut down all funding, to incapacitate

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<v Speaker 2>the opposition and to maintain regime survival. It is one

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<v Speaker 2>of those embarrassing laws that are used by tyrants, by

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<v Speaker 2>authoritative leaders to ensure that they incapacitate the opposition.

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<v Speaker 4>How do you sustain a party then, if this is

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<v Speaker 4>in fact the law now of the country.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we were told by Martin Luther King that when

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<v Speaker 2>a law is unjust, it is not only right to

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<v Speaker 2>disobey or to break that law, but it becomes a

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<v Speaker 2>moral duty to break that law. So it will become

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<v Speaker 2>a moral duty for Uganans to creative to creatively break

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<v Speaker 2>that law. Of course, it's going to be challenged in court.

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<v Speaker 2>But because the judicial system is also in the pocket

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<v Speaker 2>of Jeromo SEVENI, the Uganan dictator, you know, there's no

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<v Speaker 2>hope even in the law. The only option by Uganans

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<v Speaker 2>is to ensure that they remove that regime so that

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<v Speaker 2>we can be able to repeal all those oppressive laws.

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<v Speaker 4>Bobby, can you talk to us a little bit about

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<v Speaker 4>the time after the elections which you and your party

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<v Speaker 4>have have disputed the final results. What can you tell

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<v Speaker 4>us about that time for.

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<v Speaker 3>You well to bring the world to speed.

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<v Speaker 2>I was a presidential candidate and I won the election

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<v Speaker 2>in Uganda, although the electoral Commission, which is appointed by

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<v Speaker 2>General Museveni declared mussevene without showing any results, and up

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<v Speaker 2>to now the Electoral Commission in Uganda.

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<v Speaker 3>Has failed to upload the results.

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<v Speaker 2>So General mu Sevene was declared winner without any results

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<v Speaker 2>that were provided.

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<v Speaker 3>But not only that, we went into that.

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<v Speaker 2>Election with the internet completely switched off, with the opposition

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<v Speaker 2>leaders all abducted and held in prison, including my three

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<v Speaker 2>deputy presidents. One of them is still in prison being

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<v Speaker 2>charged for terrorism after the military attacked his house.

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<v Speaker 3>And shot and killed ten people in his house.

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<v Speaker 2>Immediately after my wife and I cast our ballot, we

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<v Speaker 2>were placed under house arrest. The day after we were raided,

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<v Speaker 2>I escaped from my house, although my wife was brutally tortured.

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<v Speaker 2>I remained in hiding as I was pursued by the

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<v Speaker 2>military for close to two months until I was able

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<v Speaker 2>to escape my country. Now I'm in the United States,

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<v Speaker 2>having run out of my country, being pursued not privately

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<v Speaker 2>by publically by the Chief of Defense Forces, who is

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<v Speaker 2>the son of the President.

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<v Speaker 3>And here we are now.

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<v Speaker 2>The world should note that MUSSEVENI has been in power

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<v Speaker 2>for forty years. He took over power in nineteen eighty

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<v Speaker 2>six and is still in power today.

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<v Speaker 4>How were you able to escape, Barby.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I should say, by the grace of God and

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<v Speaker 2>by the assistance of many Ugandans who shielded me and

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<v Speaker 2>protected me from danger. And these Ugandans include many security

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<v Speaker 2>officers and people in security angles that gave me the

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<v Speaker 2>information that I needed to keep safe until I was

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<v Speaker 2>able to leave the country.

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<v Speaker 4>Still thilly, so that security within the administration that you're

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<v Speaker 4>saying so ported you leaving the country.

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<v Speaker 2>True, many individuals in the police and in the military

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<v Speaker 2>disagree with the way our country has been run because

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<v Speaker 2>our country has been reduced to a family property where

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<v Speaker 2>seven is the president, his wife is a minister for education,

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<v Speaker 2>his son is the chief of defense forces, and largely

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<v Speaker 2>his brother controls the biggest budget, and all the institutions

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<v Speaker 2>of state are controlled by one family. Many Ugannans disagree

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<v Speaker 2>with the way our country is being run down, and

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<v Speaker 2>therefore they silently sighed and sympathize with those that are

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<v Speaker 2>fighting for change.

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<v Speaker 4>In the past, Bobby, you've pushed for international aid cuts

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<v Speaker 4>in an effort to what you say, not support oppression.

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<v Speaker 4>Are you calling for that now?

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, we are calling for targeted sanctions against those individuals

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<v Speaker 2>that abuse rights, that subvert democracy and the rule of law.

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<v Speaker 2>We have seen the United States and many other countries

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<v Speaker 2>sanctioning those that violate human rights. The most recent is

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<v Speaker 2>the former president of Congo. However, in Uganda, they're not

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<v Speaker 2>hiding it. In Uganda, people get killed and there's a

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<v Speaker 2>boast to it. The son of General Museveni tortures people

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<v Speaker 2>live on Twitter for example, my personal bodyguard was abducted

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<v Speaker 2>by him and tortured, and he tweeted and continued to

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<v Speaker 2>tweet his naked pictures. Women erept they're raided, their strip naked,

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<v Speaker 2>their dignity is violated under It is not being done

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<v Speaker 2>in hiding. It is being done, you know publically. One

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<v Speaker 2>of the tweets, the chief of Defense Forces in Uganda

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<v Speaker 2>admitted to killing twenty three of the members of my

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<v Speaker 2>party and was praying that I'm the twenty fourth dead

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<v Speaker 2>body on his hands. So these and many others I

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<v Speaker 2>thought as opposed to evoke the moral conscience of the

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<v Speaker 2>moral world, the free world, not to be part of this.

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<v Speaker 2>For many decades, the United States has been funding the

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<v Speaker 2>regame in Uganda up to the tune of one billion

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<v Speaker 2>US dollars annually. We are calling for the United States

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<v Speaker 2>to either cut these funds or to put conditions of

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<v Speaker 2>respect for democrats, a human rights, and the rule of

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<v Speaker 2>law to these fundings, or else they will come off

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<v Speaker 2>like partners in crime.

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<v Speaker 4>We contacted Uganda's government for a response to the claims

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<v Speaker 4>made by Bobby Wine in this interview. In a statement,

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<v Speaker 4>government spokesman Alan Kasuja rejected suggestions that the recently passed

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<v Speaker 4>Protection of Sovereignty Act was aimed at Bobby Wanne or

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<v Speaker 4>the opposition, calling such claims quote absolute rubbish. Kasuja also

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<v Speaker 4>said President Yowarimseventi was legitimately elected and argued that any

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<v Speaker 4>concerns about the election should have been pursued through the courts.

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<v Speaker 4>Responding to Bobby Wine's call for targeted sanctions, Kasuja said

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<v Speaker 4>Uganda's internal contradictions and challenges can be solved by ugandans.

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<v Speaker 4>Uganda's Electoral Commission has previously said it follows the law

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<v Speaker 4>and does not favor any political side. The military has

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<v Speaker 4>also rejected allegations that it unfairly targeted opposition supporters, saying

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<v Speaker 4>only people suspected of committing crimes were detained. Stick with us,

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<v Speaker 4>We're going to take a quick break. In a moment,

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<v Speaker 4>we'll hear from our senior editor for Europe, Middle East

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<v Speaker 4>and Africa on the news desk at David Malinga to

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<v Speaker 4>get his thoughts on Bobby Wine's current situation.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll be right back.

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<v Speaker 4>Welcome back. We are going to talk a bit more

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<v Speaker 4>about Bobby Wine and the current political context of ugan

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<v Speaker 4>In politics and joining me now is our senior editor

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<v Speaker 4>for Your Middle East in Africa on the news desk,

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<v Speaker 4>David Malinga.

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<v Speaker 3>We've just heard.

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<v Speaker 4>From Bobby Wine himself about his now decade long story

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<v Speaker 4>in terms of Ugan in politics. But what's the latest

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<v Speaker 4>in terms of the political situation in Uganda that listeners

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<v Speaker 4>might need to know and also the current attitude towards

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<v Speaker 4>him from the administration.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, when the president was sworn in his speech, he

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<v Speaker 6>congregulated everyone who participated in the election, including the opposition parties.

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<v Speaker 6>But when it came to Bobby Wyne's party, nope, he

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<v Speaker 6>said that they were acting in controversion of the law.

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<v Speaker 6>So for as far as is concerned, and he feels

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<v Speaker 6>like and you know, the government his regime feels like

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<v Speaker 6>Bobby Wine was acting out of the law. I think

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<v Speaker 6>he was referring to some of the things Bobby Wine

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<v Speaker 6>did pre election when he told his supporters when you

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<v Speaker 6>come out and vote, try and protect and guard the

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<v Speaker 6>vote as well. Don't just your vote and Galway and

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<v Speaker 6>you know, think it's all going to be all right.

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<v Speaker 6>So I think Formust seventy he interpreted that as Bobby

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<v Speaker 6>Wine inciting and we saw that the regime responded in

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<v Speaker 6>overwhelming measure, and as you know, after the election, Bobby

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<v Speaker 6>Wine was contained to his home and his family before

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<v Speaker 6>he managed to slip out and later fled the.

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<v Speaker 4>Country, which is something the administration is looking into themselves.

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<v Speaker 4>I wonder when we look at the popularity of Bobby Wine,

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<v Speaker 4>how would you say the popularities are split up? Is

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<v Speaker 4>it young people supporting Wine? Who are his supporters?

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<v Speaker 6>I mean, historically you would say it is split for

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<v Speaker 6>the ruling party between the match older people who have

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<v Speaker 6>been supporters of President Mussevini from way back, and also

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<v Speaker 6>these are most of the people who stay upcountry and

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<v Speaker 6>in the villages, and then for Bobby Wyane it would

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<v Speaker 6>be more young people and people who are living in

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<v Speaker 6>the urban areas. That is kind of the historical split,

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<v Speaker 6>but it's a bit checker to be honest. Bobo Wyne's

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<v Speaker 6>story is quite a remarkable one. I mean, he came

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<v Speaker 6>up and against all odds going into politics, and he

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<v Speaker 6>made a name for himself even before getting into politics

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<v Speaker 6>as a musician, and he had businesses he was running

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<v Speaker 6>and was doing well and then got into politics. So

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<v Speaker 6>many of the young people he grew up with in

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<v Speaker 6>his generation identified with him, and he still has a

0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:55.240
<v Speaker 6>big chunk of that constituency.

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<v Speaker 4>I want to ask you really quickly where the country

0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.800
<v Speaker 4>finds itself, because it's about to become an oil producer.

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<v Speaker 4>The country is somewhat growing, maybe not at the levels

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<v Speaker 4>that it should be. Where would you say that the

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<v Speaker 4>country is at.

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<v Speaker 6>If you look at, you know, the economy now it's

0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.000
<v Speaker 6>expected to grow. Yugan is one of the countries that

0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:18.640
<v Speaker 6>has managed to keep its inflation d at bay. It's

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<v Speaker 6>a little bit slower than some of its peers. That's

0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.480
<v Speaker 6>partly because some of the step of foods, you know,

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<v Speaker 6>like the bananas, are not important, which means that you

0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:32.720
<v Speaker 6>at least have a small relief in terms of that

0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:35.800
<v Speaker 6>important inflation. I mean, the currents they could have probably

0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.320
<v Speaker 6>been much worse were it not to be that the

0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:40.760
<v Speaker 6>central Bank at least has a little bit of firepower

0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:41.720
<v Speaker 6>to regulate.

0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.840
<v Speaker 4>David, maybe, just lastly, what is it that you're looking

0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.240
<v Speaker 4>for next? Just back to my conversation with Bobby, he

0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:54.000
<v Speaker 4>is defiant in continuing to push his own agenda forward.

0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:56.600
<v Speaker 4>What are you watching for now that we do have

0:15:56.680 --> 0:16:00.480
<v Speaker 4>a new term for President Musse seventy and yet biggest

0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:05.200
<v Speaker 4>challenger still on the international stage really condemning them.

0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.800
<v Speaker 6>I think the country is at crossroads now. It's going

0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:13.000
<v Speaker 6>to be a really important term this next five years

0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:17.040
<v Speaker 6>because it's getting into a political transition where it has

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<v Speaker 6>to start preparing for change in leadership. So it's inevitable

0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.120
<v Speaker 6>that that conversation will happen about you know what happens

0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.080
<v Speaker 6>after seven and who has been in power for more

0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:29.080
<v Speaker 6>than forty years and in there, the transformation is going

0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:31.800
<v Speaker 6>to be the economic one, Like you said, when you

0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:36.000
<v Speaker 6>kinda starts producing oil and this revenue starts coming in,

0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:39.160
<v Speaker 6>it's going to be important how this money is managed

0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.440
<v Speaker 6>and how that is going to help shipe the fortunes

0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:44.040
<v Speaker 6>of the country.

0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:46.960
<v Speaker 4>No one else gotter I'd rather talk to you about this.

0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:49.640
<v Speaker 4>Thank you so much for being on the podcast with

0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:53.040
<v Speaker 4>us this week. Is David Malinga, our senior editor for

0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:57.400
<v Speaker 4>Your Middle East and Africa on the news desk, and

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<v Speaker 4>you can read more of our reporting about and of

0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:05.359
<v Speaker 4>course Uganda across Bloomberg platforms. Now here's some of the

0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:08.320
<v Speaker 4>other stories we've been following across the region this week.

0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:12.199
<v Speaker 4>Shipping traffic in the Strait of Hormuz remained at a

0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:16.919
<v Speaker 4>standstill with oil rising after US President Donald Trump rejected

0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.720
<v Speaker 4>Iran's latest offer and suggested the ceasefire in their war

0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.600
<v Speaker 4>may not hold. Trump stopped short of signaling the US

0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:28.600
<v Speaker 4>would resume military attacks as he previously threatened, and said

0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:34.680
<v Speaker 4>reaching a diplomatic solution is quote very possible. And Orange

0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:38.280
<v Speaker 4>plans to double its solar powered based stations across Africa

0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.119
<v Speaker 4>as the fallout from the Iran war makes renewable energy

0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:45.800
<v Speaker 4>investments more attractive, its CEO, Christelle Hedemann said in an

0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:49.800
<v Speaker 4>interview in Nairobi. Rising fuel prices because of the war

0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.240
<v Speaker 4>in Iran and a lack of reliable power in parts

0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:57.400
<v Speaker 4>of the continent make the switch vital for the company.

0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:01.040
<v Speaker 4>You can follow these stories across Bloomberg Class, including the

0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:03.760
<v Speaker 4>Next African Newsletter. Will put a link to that in

0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:08.120
<v Speaker 4>the show notes. This program was produced by Adrian Bradley

0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:10.920
<v Speaker 4>and tia Adebayo. Don't forget to follow and review the

0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:14.560
<v Speaker 4>show wherever you usually get your podcasts, But for now

0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:17.240
<v Speaker 4>I'm Jennifer's Abisanja. Thanks as always for listening.