Speaker 1: Kushkin. Hi, everyone, this is Liddy Jine Kott back with
Speaker 1: another special bonus episode of the Chinatown Sting. Earlier in
Speaker 1: this season, we heard about how US immigration laws helped
Speaker 1: create Chinatowns, especially a law called the Chinese Exclusion Act
Speaker 1: passed in eighteen eighty two. This act banned Chinese workers
Speaker 1: from entering the country and it prohibited Chinese immigrants from
Speaker 1: becoming citizens. And it wasn't until nineteen sixty five that
Speaker 1: immigration quotas based on ethnicity were finally banned. In Chinatowns
Speaker 1: truly became bustling family neighborhoods. I can't think of anyone
Speaker 1: better to talk with about this history than Judge Denny Chin.
Speaker 1: Not only did he and his family live through this history,
Speaker 1: he now teaches it to law students and lave lawyers.
Speaker 1: Judge Denny Chin sits on the United States Court of
Speaker 1: Appeals for the Second Circuit, a court that's right below
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. Over the course of his career, Judge
Speaker 1: Chen has overseen many high profile trials, including the two
Speaker 1: thousand and nine trial against financial fraudster Bernie Maidall. He's
Speaker 1: taught courses on Asian American legal history at Fordham University,
Speaker 1: Harvard and Yale, and he's the co author of a
Speaker 1: forthcoming textbook called Asian Americans and the Law. In addition
Speaker 1: to all of this, as you'll hear, Judge Chen has
Speaker 1: also written and performed a series of re enactments of
Speaker 1: historic cases involving Asian American litigants. I talked to him
Speaker 1: about how those litigants have shaped American law and challenged
Speaker 1: the status quo. We met in his chambers at the
Speaker 1: Thurgood Marshall Courthouse in Lower Manhattan.
Speaker 2: And we are actually sitting in chambers once occupied by
Speaker 2: Thurgood Marshall himself when he was a judge on our
Speaker 2: court in the sixties. He actually sat in these very chambers,
Speaker 2: and it is an incredible honor for me to be
Speaker 2: sitting where the great Thurgood Marshall himself once sat.
Speaker 1: Judge Chen was born in Hong Kong in nineteen fifty six.
Speaker 1: When he was two years old, his family moved to
Speaker 1: New York City. When they arrived, they reunited with his grandfather,
Speaker 1: who had already been living in Manhattan's Chinatown for decades.
Speaker 2: My grandfather lived in one of those railroad apartments on
Speaker 2: Bayard Street and in each room there would be a
Speaker 2: single man without his family, but they were sharing the apartment,
Speaker 2: and my grandfather, like the others, each month he would
Speaker 2: send a money order home to his family in Hong
Speaker 2: Kong or China. He came to this country illegally in
Speaker 2: nineteen sixteen. Back then there were Chinese exclusion laws on
Speaker 2: the books, and you could not come into this country
Speaker 2: at all if you were Chinese unless you were the
Speaker 2: son of a US citizen. You may have heard the
Speaker 2: term paper sons. My grandfather was a paper son. He
Speaker 2: bought a piece of paper pretending to be the son
Speaker 2: of a US citizen, and that's how he was admitted
Speaker 2: to this country. And he worked as a waiter in
Speaker 2: Chinese restaurants. He went back to China only two times,
Speaker 2: first in the nineteen twenties when he got married, second
Speaker 2: in the nineteen thirties when my father was born, and
Speaker 2: both times he had to leave his family behind because
Speaker 2: of the immigration laws. But in nineteen forty seven he
Speaker 2: became a US citizen. And actually on that wall there
Speaker 2: I have his naturalization certificate. Oh wow, and he was yeah,
Speaker 2: And I believe I'm not one hundred percent sure, but
Speaker 2: I believe he was sworn in as a US citizen
Speaker 2: in this courthouse, in this building. On the back of it,
Speaker 2: it says sworn to an open court. In nineteen forty seven,
Speaker 2: there was only one courthouse, and this is it. And
Speaker 2: because he became a citizen, and because the immigration laws
Speaker 2: were finally relaxed, he was able to bring us here
Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty six. My father, my mother, my older sister,
Speaker 2: and my younger brother. We came in in fifty six.
Speaker 2: And there was a law passed in nineteen fifty three
Speaker 2: called the Refugee Relief Act, and it was intended to
Speaker 2: help people fleeing from communism, and my parents fled China,
Speaker 2: wound up in Hong Kong, where they met and fell
Speaker 2: in love, and we were admitted under that statute. So
Speaker 2: we were actually political refugees. And when I was a
Speaker 2: district judge and occasionally now even as a circuit judge,
Speaker 2: I've been able to do the naturalization ceremony to swear
Speaker 2: in new American citizens. And I take that certificate off
Speaker 2: the wall frame and all, and I show it to
Speaker 2: them and I tell them the story of my grandfather
Speaker 2: and my parents.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's really that's really moving. And your mom was
Speaker 1: a garment worker in.
Speaker 2: My mother initially when we were young, she made jewelry
Speaker 2: at home. She would be paid by the peace, and
Speaker 2: then eventually she became a seamstress in Chinatown garment factories,
Speaker 2: and my father was a cook in Chinese restaurants. They
Speaker 2: both my mother spoke virtually no English. My father learned
Speaker 2: a bit.
Speaker 1: Do you have memories of as a kid, like visiting Chinatown,
Speaker 1: Like what Chinatown was like and the garment factories and such.
Speaker 2: Chinatown was certainly a center of life for both my parents.
Speaker 2: I do have memories. Like many Chinese and other Asian families,
Speaker 2: we went to language school. My sister and I went
Speaker 2: to Chinatown every day after regular school. We'd get on
Speaker 2: the subway, go down to Chinatown and take Chinese lessons.
Speaker 2: We did that for a while every day. Yeah, we
Speaker 2: spoke twice on these originally, but this would have been Cantonese,
Speaker 2: and eventually it became once a week. But I remember Chinatown.
Speaker 2: Then my grandfather eventually retired, but he would hang out
Speaker 2: in a hardware store in Chinatown, like he'd.
Speaker 1: Just hang out there, like chatting away with the other
Speaker 1: older guys exactly.
Speaker 2: And in fact, when I was at Princeton. I did
Speaker 2: my senior thesis on called the Old Ones of Chinatown,
Speaker 2: and it was on the Chinatown Senior Citizens and I
Speaker 2: took some photos. I did some interviewing of people who
Speaker 2: I and different facilities and services in Chinatown. I enjoyed
Speaker 2: doing my thesis, but I wound up going to law school,
Speaker 2: largely because I didn't know what to do with myself
Speaker 2: at the time.
Speaker 1: What did you like about the law and you went
Speaker 1: to law school?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I went to law school unsure of
Speaker 2: whether I would become a lawyer. I had never met
Speaker 2: a lawyer, certainly not a judge as I was growing up.
Speaker 2: My parents must have had lawyers to help them with
Speaker 2: the process of becoming naturalized, but I never met any
Speaker 2: and went to Fordham Law School. That first summer I
Speaker 2: got an internship with a judge. In this courthouse, I
Speaker 2: saw some trials. I remember a bank robbery trial. The
Speaker 2: judge let me draft some opinions which were then edited
Speaker 2: by a law clerk. Being at the center of the
Speaker 2: administration of justice was something I very much enjoyed, and
Speaker 2: I decided that summer that I wanted to come back
Speaker 2: one day and be a judge in the courthouse, and then,
Speaker 2: of course, many years later, here I am again right
Speaker 2: on the edge of China, exactly as a federal judge.
Speaker 2: At one point when I was a district judge in
Speaker 2: the other building, and right across the street from the
Speaker 2: other courthouse is Columbus Park. We played basketball there once
Speaker 2: a week at seven point thirty in the morning. We'd
Speaker 2: have a pickup game. We'd have prosecutors, law clerks, a
Speaker 2: variety of people in New York City playground basketball. There
Speaker 2: was one full court, and we wanted to run full court,
Speaker 2: but there were senior citizens doing tai chi, there were
Speaker 2: other community folks, and there was a little bit of competitiveness. However,
Speaker 2: I started getting a lot of attention with the made
Speaker 2: Off case and getting nominated to the circuit, and the
Speaker 2: Chinatown newspapers would cover this, and at some point the
Speaker 2: folks realized who I was, and then they started offering
Speaker 2: me tea and cookies in the morning and letting us
Speaker 2: have the full court. And that's why.
Speaker 1: After the break, how Judge Chin began writing and performing
Speaker 1: reenactments of famous cases brought by Asian Americans. I'm back
Speaker 1: with Judge Denny Chin a while back, he and his
Speaker 1: wife Kathy Herodicin started writing and staging re enactments of
Speaker 1: famous cases involving Asian American litigants. They performed one every
Speaker 1: year at the National Asian Pacific Bar Association in New York.
Speaker 1: I asked Judge Chin about how exactly these reenactments come together.
Speaker 2: We take excerpts from trial transcripts, judges' opinions, briefs, historical
Speaker 2: newspaper articles. We weave those excerpts in with original narration
Speaker 2: that Kathy and I wright, and then we present these
Speaker 2: with a cast of lawyers who are would be actors,
Speaker 2: many lawyers, particularly trial lawyers.
Speaker 1: You know, this part of it is the performance.
Speaker 2: Part of it is performing, and so these are performances,
Speaker 2: but they raise issues that continue to be important. They
Speaker 2: tell compelling stories about the early Asian Americans. For example,
Speaker 2: we have a really interesting reenactment about twenty two lud
Speaker 2: as an LWD Chinese women, allegedly lued I should say.
Speaker 2: They arrived on a boat in San Francisco in the
Speaker 2: eighteen eighties, and the California authorities wouldn't let them off
Speaker 2: unless they posted a five hundred dollar bond. Each five
Speaker 2: hundred dollars was allowed money back then? Why why wouldn't
Speaker 2: they let them off? Well, they were women traveling alone,
Speaker 2: and they were Chinese, and they were suspected of being lewd,
Speaker 2: of being prostitutes. And there was a trial on whether
Speaker 2: they were prostitutes. And the case went up to the
Speaker 2: Supreme Court of the United States. And it's a case
Speaker 2: that is still raising important issues. How was it decided
Speaker 2: the women won? Oh that's good, Well, that's good. But
Speaker 2: what happened to them? They probably were being trafficked. They
Speaker 2: probably were the victims of trafficking. They were represented by
Speaker 2: a very good lawyer, a former judge. How could they
Speaker 2: afford to hire such a good lawyer?
Speaker 1: The gangs?
Speaker 2: It was probably the trafficker or the gangs who wanted
Speaker 2: to protect their investment. But can a state take matters
Speaker 2: involving immigration into its own hands when it feels the
Speaker 2: federal government isn't doing enough? And that was very much
Speaker 2: an issue a few years ago. Now it's the opposite.
Speaker 2: Now it's the federal government thinking states are chewing too
Speaker 2: much to interfere with the immigration authorities. But you can
Speaker 2: see how these legal issues are still important. So how
Speaker 2: did I get into this I was a member of
Speaker 2: something called the Federal Bar Council in of Court and
Speaker 2: when I joined, each month a team led by a
Speaker 2: judge would do some kind of presentation. We did the
Speaker 2: trial of fl Rosenberg, and incidentally I I played mister
Speaker 2: rosen Perk because it was the smallest part, and we
Speaker 2: reenacted the sentencing and I had the death sentence imposed
Speaker 2: on me, and it was no fun, even though it
Speaker 2: was pretend having the death penalty impost on me and
Speaker 2: it was It was actually very good for me as
Speaker 2: a judge. I was a judge like it. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean I played the defendant and I had the lawyers
Speaker 2: pointing at me and saying I was stupid but not criminal,
Speaker 2: that kind of thing, And it gave me some appreciation
Speaker 2: of the difficulties of going through the process.
Speaker 1: Wow, in a way, like what you're yeah, what you
Speaker 1: do with those reenactments is like what we're doing. Did
Speaker 1: we trd to do with this podcast, which is taking
Speaker 1: the court docs, taking codes from people taking a legal
Speaker 1: case and kind of like reenacting it. Understand it.
Speaker 2: We think of it as courtroom theater. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of drama in the courtroom, but beyond that, you know,
Speaker 2: there are compelling stories about the people, and then there
Speaker 2: are important issues that are still important today, whether it's
Speaker 2: human trafficking or racial violence. Now, because of all these
Speaker 2: reenactments of the Asian American cases, I developed a real
Speaker 2: love for Asian American legal history.
Speaker 1: Like what have you found is unique about the Asian
Speaker 1: American experience and the laws focusing on that.
Speaker 2: Well. First of all, even though the numbers of Asian
Speaker 2: Americans in the early days the Chinese in the US
Speaker 2: population was very, very low, there were lots of cases,
Speaker 2: brought quite a few cases all the way to the
Speaker 2: Supreme Court. Asian Americans have been at the center of
Speaker 2: many many different issues, immigration, citizenship, violence, there were many massacres,
Speaker 2: the civil rights cases currently in addition to the pandemic
Speaker 2: and the anti Asian violence, affirmative action, and the early
Speaker 2: litigants were folks of very limited means, women suspected of
Speaker 2: being prostitutes, cooks, laundrymen. One of the first cases to
Speaker 2: be studied in con law is the laundryman case. San
Speaker 2: Francisco passed the law that if you wanted to run
Speaker 2: a laundry, it had to be in a stone or
Speaker 2: brick building. You couldn't have it in a wooden building,
Speaker 2: ostensibly because of the fear of fires. There was an exception.
Speaker 2: You could apply for an exception so that you could
Speaker 2: continue to operate your laundry in a wooden building, and
Speaker 2: two hundred Chinese applied for the exception. There were many,
Speaker 2: many Chinese laundries in San Francisco. Every single one was denied.
Speaker 2: There were eighty applications by non Chinese, everyone but one
Speaker 2: was granted. The one that was not granted was a woman.
Speaker 2: And so it's you know, a law can be discriminatory
Speaker 2: as apply even though on its face it appears neutral,
Speaker 2: it's applied in a way that is discriminatory. So that
Speaker 2: was a very important ruling that the Supreme Court. So
Speaker 2: it's very important not just for the Chinese, but for
Speaker 2: many You can't take a law that is on its
Speaker 2: face neutral and apply it in a discriminatory way. And
Speaker 2: it also said that equal protection applies not just to
Speaker 2: citizens but to all persons. And even though most all
Speaker 2: of these Chinese launchermen were not US citizens, they were
Speaker 2: still entitle to the protection of the US Constitution. So
Speaker 2: this is a great example compelling stories that there were
Speaker 2: actually two laundrymen involved. They had run their laundries for
Speaker 2: decades in San Francisco. People limited means, yet they were
Speaker 2: bringing these really innovative, creative legal theories. These were important
Speaker 2: rights and there were benefits not just for them but
Speaker 2: for many, many others. And so, you know, doing the
Speaker 2: reenactments helped me really learn this Asian American legal history.
Speaker 2: And then at some point I decided that we needed
Speaker 2: to have a seminar to teach it. My colleague and
Speaker 2: I at Fordham Law School in twenty seventeen developed a
Speaker 2: seminar on Asian Americans and the Law. There are now
Speaker 2: fourteen or more law schools using our syllabus, at least
Speaker 2: as a start, using our reading tearials and offering a
Speaker 2: similar summinar on Asian Americans and the Law.
Speaker 1: Coming up after the break, Judge ten and I talk
Speaker 1: about the Chinese Exclusion Act and the violence it unleashed.
Speaker 1: One of the really fun parts of making the season
Speaker 1: of the Chinatown Sting was getting to record the movie
Speaker 1: and Broadway musical actor Kelly Leong. He's been the voice
Speaker 1: of the court docs in the series. When he came in,
Speaker 1: it was just clear that we were in the presence
Speaker 1: of a talented professional, and we also asked him to
Speaker 1: record a portion of the original language of the Chinese
Speaker 1: Exclusion Act that Congress passed in eighteen eighty two. I
Speaker 1: brought that recording with me when I interviewed Judge Chen,
Speaker 1: and I played it for him. Here's that reenactment from
Speaker 1: Taly Leon.
Speaker 3: Any Chinese person found unlawfully within the United States shall
Speaker 3: be caused to be removed. Therefrom to the country from
Speaker 3: whence he came by direction of the President of the
Speaker 3: United States and at the cost of the United States,
Speaker 3: after being brought before some justice judge or commissioner of
Speaker 3: a court of the United States and found to be
Speaker 3: one not lawfully entitled to be or remain in the
Speaker 3: United States.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I guess that's what you think when you
Speaker 1: hear those words.
Speaker 2: Well, it's very moving to hear the words, and that
Speaker 2: person read them very well. The Chinese Exclusion Act of
Speaker 2: eighteen eighty two and the subsequent amendments and extensions is
Speaker 2: a very important part of Asian American legal history. Why
Speaker 2: was this happening, What was driving Congress to pass this.
Speaker 2: It's often overlooked that the China towns contributed greatly to
Speaker 2: the broader American society as well. You know, the trade
Speaker 2: shipping goods back to China, bringing goods from China. There
Speaker 2: were all sorts of taxes imposed on the Chinese, and
Speaker 2: the Chinese paid, you know, the Chinese contributed. There were
Speaker 2: massacres of Chinese gold miners, but many of the early
Speaker 2: Chinese gold miners would come in after a location or
Speaker 2: a mine had been abandoned by the original miners, and
Speaker 2: then they would try to like do the leftovers almost
Speaker 2: but they would find ways to get more gold out
Speaker 2: of it. And I don't know, and you know, originally
Speaker 2: the Chinese were welcomed. There was more curiosity city than
Speaker 2: anything else. But then in time these feelings grew. Part
Speaker 2: of it was political. When Governor Bigler was running for reelection,
Speaker 2: he seized on the Chinese question and he was in California.
Speaker 2: He was in California, he was facing reelection and he
Speaker 2: used this as a campaign theme. What the Chinese are doing,
Speaker 2: They're taking our goal, sending it back, et cetera. You
Speaker 2: could see efforts being used, politicians and others using these
Speaker 2: things to rally the masses. In the eighteen eighties, many
Speaker 2: communities around the country literally drove out all their Chinese residents.
Speaker 2: The Chinese were expelled from the towns, and one of
Speaker 2: them was Eureka. In California, there were a prince and
Speaker 2: professor has done research on this. There were one hundred
Speaker 2: it's sixty eight communities at least that drove out all
Speaker 2: their Chinese residents, like the West Coast on the West
Speaker 2: Coast California, but also further north Seattle, Bellingham, Washington. Wasn't
Speaker 2: just the Chinese and Bellingham, it was the South Asians.
Speaker 2: Many of them were Sikh, although they were called Hindus
Speaker 2: at the time, and in Eureka the numbers vary, but
Speaker 2: it was two hundred, three hundred, As many as eight
Speaker 2: hundred Chinese were driven out of town.
Speaker 1: What was the driving out? How did the driving out work?
Speaker 3: What was it?
Speaker 2: Several hundred people banned it together but including leaders of
Speaker 2: the community, and physically forced them out and put them
Speaker 2: on boats and sent them off to San Francisco. Oh well,
Speaker 2: many of them were where could they go? And many
Speaker 2: of them wound up heading east. There were some lawsuits
Speaker 2: brought as a result of Eureka, and there was one
Speaker 2: case where I think it was approximately fifty one residents
Speaker 2: and merchants. Chinese residents and merchants brought what was essentially
Speaker 2: a class action.
Speaker 1: Were there class actions already then.
Speaker 2: No, there were class actions back then. There was no
Speaker 2: such thing as RUL twenty three of the Federal Rules
Speaker 2: of Civil Procedure. So this is yet another example of
Speaker 2: creative innovative lawyering. They filled out forms and put in
Speaker 2: their individual details and then put them together into one complaint,
Speaker 2: and so it literally it was like a class action.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Two of the fifty one who were part of the
Speaker 2: complaint were women, and one of them, in her form
Speaker 2: put in parentheses woman. She wanted to tell the court
Speaker 2: that she was a woman. Now that case was eventually
Speaker 2: dismissed and.
Speaker 1: They were asking to be able to stay in Eureka.
Speaker 2: No, they were asking for money damages. But so these
Speaker 2: individuals sued damages. And another creative innovative aspect about this,
Speaker 2: they were trying to hold the city of Eureka responsible
Speaker 2: for failing to control the rioters. Yeah, and they were
Speaker 2: asserting this. It failed, but it sent a message that
Speaker 2: we're going to fight back, you know. And so there
Speaker 2: were many instances of the Chinese being driven out of
Speaker 2: the community in Seattle. The Rioters rounded up the Chinese,
Speaker 2: brought them down to the wharf. They collected money to
Speaker 2: pay for their passages on a boat so that they
Speaker 2: could be sent off, and they were even willing to
Speaker 2: put in their own money.
Speaker 1: To do this. I guess I'm wondering, of course, your
Speaker 1: students are going to, you know, come away with a
Speaker 1: lot from the class. But if, like you know, years
Speaker 1: down the line, when they're remembering their Asian Americans in
Speaker 1: the wall class, if they were to just come away
Speaker 1: with like one sentence, their one memory from that class,
Speaker 1: what would you want them to hold on to from
Speaker 1: the experience.
Speaker 2: I think Asian American legal history teaches us a lot
Speaker 2: about how the constitution is supposed to work, how sometimes
Speaker 2: it works, but unfortunately, how often it doesn't work. It
Speaker 2: teaches us that committed, resourceful, courageous people can do a
Speaker 2: lot to help make things better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, having studied you know, Asian Americans in the law
Speaker 1: and seeing how, you know, sometimes cases are decided in
Speaker 1: ways in retrospect that seem wrong, or like, how that
Speaker 1: makes you think about your role as a judge in
Speaker 1: a system that is quite platantly from the textbooks imperfect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, our system is imperfect, but I think, based on
Speaker 2: thirty one years of being a judge, I think we
Speaker 2: usually get things right. It works pretty well. It is
Speaker 2: not perfect. Now studying these cases, there are a couple
Speaker 2: of things.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: One is to be creative and think broadly about things,
Speaker 2: but two is scrutinize things. Don't just blindly defer to
Speaker 2: the executive branch during interment. I do not believe the
Speaker 2: Supreme Court sufficiently put the government to its proof. One
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty thousand Japanese Americans on the West coast
Speaker 2: right military necessity. We don't have time to individually consider
Speaker 2: whether someone is a danger a job, a particular Japanese
Speaker 2: person is a danger in terms of espionage and sabotage.
Speaker 2: We don't have time to have hearings or individual consideration.
Speaker 2: And the Court just accepted the government at its word
Speaker 2: instead of pressing back, instead of saying, show us what
Speaker 2: are the examples of sabotage? Take away the children, take
Speaker 2: away the older people, take away the women. Women really
Speaker 2: weren't part of the military then and were less of
Speaker 2: a threat. Two thirds of the one hundred and twenty
Speaker 2: thousand were American citizens. When you start looking at it
Speaker 2: more carefully. Did we actually have the time to give
Speaker 2: them hearings and to look at their at least to
Speaker 2: do an interview of some kind, And instead the government
Speaker 2: took months to build assembly centers and then ten internment camps.
Speaker 2: So you know, one lesson is, don't just accept the
Speaker 2: government at its word. Put it to its proof. That's appropriate.
Speaker 2: And I think we're seeing that these days. Many of
Speaker 2: the lower courts, the trial judges are making decisions where
Speaker 2: I think they are indeed requiring the government to support
Speaker 2: what they are asserting and not just blindly accepting their say.
Speaker 1: So, as I said goodbye to Judge Chin, he stood
Speaker 1: up to find something for me. Something He says he
Speaker 1: never lets anyone leave his chambers without Everyone.
Speaker 2: Should have a pocket constitution.
Speaker 1: Uh, thank you. I so appreciate Judge Jenny Chin taking
Speaker 1: the time to talk with me. He sits on the
Speaker 1: United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, and
Speaker 1: he's the co author of a forthcoming textbook called Asian
Speaker 1: Americans and the Law. This episode of the Chinatownsting was
Speaker 1: produced by Sonya Gurwit and edited by Julia Barton. It
Speaker 1: was engineered by Sarah Bruger. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith.
Speaker 1: Our music was composed by John Sung, with additional music
Speaker 1: by Jake Gorski, all voiceover work by Tally Leong. The
Speaker 1: Chinatowns Day is a production of Pushkin Industries. To find
Speaker 1: more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Lydia gene Cox.