1 00:00:15,411 --> 00:00:23,811 Speaker 1: Kushkin. Hi, everyone, this is Liddy Jine Kott back with 2 00:00:23,890 --> 00:00:28,370 Speaker 1: another special bonus episode of the Chinatown Sting. Earlier in 3 00:00:28,371 --> 00:00:31,211 Speaker 1: this season, we heard about how US immigration laws helped 4 00:00:31,251 --> 00:00:35,011 Speaker 1: create Chinatowns, especially a law called the Chinese Exclusion Act 5 00:00:35,171 --> 00:00:39,330 Speaker 1: passed in eighteen eighty two. This act banned Chinese workers 6 00:00:39,331 --> 00:00:43,091 Speaker 1: from entering the country and it prohibited Chinese immigrants from 7 00:00:43,091 --> 00:00:47,171 Speaker 1: becoming citizens. And it wasn't until nineteen sixty five that 8 00:00:47,291 --> 00:00:51,731 Speaker 1: immigration quotas based on ethnicity were finally banned. In Chinatowns 9 00:00:51,851 --> 00:01:00,971 Speaker 1: truly became bustling family neighborhoods. I can't think of anyone 10 00:01:01,011 --> 00:01:04,011 Speaker 1: better to talk with about this history than Judge Denny Chin. 11 00:01:04,691 --> 00:01:07,131 Speaker 1: Not only did he and his family live through this history, 12 00:01:07,450 --> 00:01:10,851 Speaker 1: he now teaches it to law students and lave lawyers. 13 00:01:11,810 --> 00:01:14,531 Speaker 1: Judge Denny Chin sits on the United States Court of 14 00:01:14,571 --> 00:01:17,651 Speaker 1: Appeals for the Second Circuit, a court that's right below 15 00:01:17,651 --> 00:01:21,571 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. Over the course of his career, Judge 16 00:01:21,691 --> 00:01:26,131 Speaker 1: Chen has overseen many high profile trials, including the two 17 00:01:26,131 --> 00:01:31,411 Speaker 1: thousand and nine trial against financial fraudster Bernie Maidall. He's 18 00:01:31,491 --> 00:01:35,411 Speaker 1: taught courses on Asian American legal history at Fordham University, 19 00:01:35,891 --> 00:01:38,971 Speaker 1: Harvard and Yale, and he's the co author of a 20 00:01:39,011 --> 00:01:44,451 Speaker 1: forthcoming textbook called Asian Americans and the Law. In addition 21 00:01:44,531 --> 00:01:46,971 Speaker 1: to all of this, as you'll hear, Judge Chen has 22 00:01:47,011 --> 00:01:50,091 Speaker 1: also written and performed a series of re enactments of 23 00:01:50,251 --> 00:01:55,451 Speaker 1: historic cases involving Asian American litigants. I talked to him 24 00:01:55,571 --> 00:01:58,891 Speaker 1: about how those litigants have shaped American law and challenged 25 00:01:58,931 --> 00:02:06,211 Speaker 1: the status quo. We met in his chambers at the 26 00:02:06,251 --> 00:02:09,331 Speaker 1: Thurgood Marshall Courthouse in Lower Manhattan. 27 00:02:09,451 --> 00:02:12,851 Speaker 2: And we are actually sitting in chambers once occupied by 28 00:02:12,891 --> 00:02:17,250 Speaker 2: Thurgood Marshall himself when he was a judge on our 29 00:02:17,370 --> 00:02:21,891 Speaker 2: court in the sixties. He actually sat in these very chambers, 30 00:02:22,451 --> 00:02:25,571 Speaker 2: and it is an incredible honor for me to be 31 00:02:25,651 --> 00:02:29,611 Speaker 2: sitting where the great Thurgood Marshall himself once sat. 32 00:02:30,091 --> 00:02:33,491 Speaker 1: Judge Chen was born in Hong Kong in nineteen fifty six. 33 00:02:33,531 --> 00:02:35,691 Speaker 1: When he was two years old, his family moved to 34 00:02:35,691 --> 00:02:39,731 Speaker 1: New York City. When they arrived, they reunited with his grandfather, 35 00:02:40,091 --> 00:02:43,090 Speaker 1: who had already been living in Manhattan's Chinatown for decades. 36 00:02:44,011 --> 00:02:48,491 Speaker 2: My grandfather lived in one of those railroad apartments on 37 00:02:48,571 --> 00:02:53,131 Speaker 2: Bayard Street and in each room there would be a 38 00:02:53,171 --> 00:02:58,331 Speaker 2: single man without his family, but they were sharing the apartment, 39 00:02:58,611 --> 00:03:02,091 Speaker 2: and my grandfather, like the others, each month he would 40 00:03:02,131 --> 00:03:06,731 Speaker 2: send a money order home to his family in Hong 41 00:03:06,851 --> 00:03:13,651 Speaker 2: Kong or China. He came to this country illegally in 42 00:03:13,771 --> 00:03:19,411 Speaker 2: nineteen sixteen. Back then there were Chinese exclusion laws on 43 00:03:19,651 --> 00:03:22,411 Speaker 2: the books, and you could not come into this country 44 00:03:22,491 --> 00:03:26,210 Speaker 2: at all if you were Chinese unless you were the 45 00:03:26,251 --> 00:03:28,651 Speaker 2: son of a US citizen. You may have heard the 46 00:03:28,771 --> 00:03:33,651 Speaker 2: term paper sons. My grandfather was a paper son. He 47 00:03:33,771 --> 00:03:38,011 Speaker 2: bought a piece of paper pretending to be the son 48 00:03:38,131 --> 00:03:41,211 Speaker 2: of a US citizen, and that's how he was admitted 49 00:03:41,331 --> 00:03:45,851 Speaker 2: to this country. And he worked as a waiter in 50 00:03:46,051 --> 00:03:50,051 Speaker 2: Chinese restaurants. He went back to China only two times, 51 00:03:50,851 --> 00:03:55,491 Speaker 2: first in the nineteen twenties when he got married, second 52 00:03:55,611 --> 00:03:59,211 Speaker 2: in the nineteen thirties when my father was born, and 53 00:03:59,331 --> 00:04:02,851 Speaker 2: both times he had to leave his family behind because 54 00:04:02,891 --> 00:04:07,451 Speaker 2: of the immigration laws. But in nineteen forty seven he 55 00:04:07,571 --> 00:04:11,011 Speaker 2: became a US citizen. And actually on that wall there 56 00:04:11,931 --> 00:04:17,251 Speaker 2: I have his naturalization certificate. Oh wow, and he was yeah, 57 00:04:17,291 --> 00:04:20,010 Speaker 2: And I believe I'm not one hundred percent sure, but 58 00:04:20,051 --> 00:04:24,210 Speaker 2: I believe he was sworn in as a US citizen 59 00:04:24,371 --> 00:04:27,451 Speaker 2: in this courthouse, in this building. On the back of it, 60 00:04:27,451 --> 00:04:31,130 Speaker 2: it says sworn to an open court. In nineteen forty seven, 61 00:04:31,491 --> 00:04:34,651 Speaker 2: there was only one courthouse, and this is it. And 62 00:04:34,731 --> 00:04:38,731 Speaker 2: because he became a citizen, and because the immigration laws 63 00:04:39,171 --> 00:04:43,010 Speaker 2: were finally relaxed, he was able to bring us here 64 00:04:43,651 --> 00:04:48,811 Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty six. My father, my mother, my older sister, 65 00:04:48,891 --> 00:04:51,331 Speaker 2: and my younger brother. We came in in fifty six. 66 00:04:51,851 --> 00:04:54,891 Speaker 2: And there was a law passed in nineteen fifty three 67 00:04:55,611 --> 00:04:58,731 Speaker 2: called the Refugee Relief Act, and it was intended to 68 00:04:58,771 --> 00:05:04,171 Speaker 2: help people fleeing from communism, and my parents fled China, 69 00:05:04,971 --> 00:05:07,291 Speaker 2: wound up in Hong Kong, where they met and fell 70 00:05:07,331 --> 00:05:10,371 Speaker 2: in love, and we were admitted under that statute. So 71 00:05:11,211 --> 00:05:16,010 Speaker 2: we were actually political refugees. And when I was a 72 00:05:16,051 --> 00:05:19,851 Speaker 2: district judge and occasionally now even as a circuit judge, 73 00:05:20,091 --> 00:05:23,611 Speaker 2: I've been able to do the naturalization ceremony to swear 74 00:05:23,651 --> 00:05:27,531 Speaker 2: in new American citizens. And I take that certificate off 75 00:05:27,531 --> 00:05:29,731 Speaker 2: the wall frame and all, and I show it to 76 00:05:29,771 --> 00:05:32,771 Speaker 2: them and I tell them the story of my grandfather 77 00:05:33,051 --> 00:05:33,851 Speaker 2: and my parents. 78 00:05:34,331 --> 00:05:38,571 Speaker 1: Wow, that's really that's really moving. And your mom was 79 00:05:38,611 --> 00:05:39,931 Speaker 1: a garment worker in. 80 00:05:40,291 --> 00:05:43,771 Speaker 2: My mother initially when we were young, she made jewelry 81 00:05:43,891 --> 00:05:46,171 Speaker 2: at home. She would be paid by the peace, and 82 00:05:46,211 --> 00:05:50,891 Speaker 2: then eventually she became a seamstress in Chinatown garment factories, 83 00:05:51,051 --> 00:05:54,531 Speaker 2: and my father was a cook in Chinese restaurants. They 84 00:05:54,690 --> 00:05:59,731 Speaker 2: both my mother spoke virtually no English. My father learned 85 00:06:00,131 --> 00:06:00,450 Speaker 2: a bit. 86 00:06:00,771 --> 00:06:03,651 Speaker 1: Do you have memories of as a kid, like visiting Chinatown, 87 00:06:03,651 --> 00:06:06,330 Speaker 1: Like what Chinatown was like and the garment factories and such. 88 00:06:06,611 --> 00:06:11,531 Speaker 2: Chinatown was certainly a center of life for both my parents. 89 00:06:12,371 --> 00:06:17,331 Speaker 2: I do have memories. Like many Chinese and other Asian families, 90 00:06:17,971 --> 00:06:21,851 Speaker 2: we went to language school. My sister and I went 91 00:06:21,891 --> 00:06:26,051 Speaker 2: to Chinatown every day after regular school. We'd get on 92 00:06:26,051 --> 00:06:30,331 Speaker 2: the subway, go down to Chinatown and take Chinese lessons. 93 00:06:30,411 --> 00:06:34,571 Speaker 2: We did that for a while every day. Yeah, we 94 00:06:34,611 --> 00:06:38,971 Speaker 2: spoke twice on these originally, but this would have been Cantonese, 95 00:06:39,051 --> 00:06:43,971 Speaker 2: and eventually it became once a week. But I remember Chinatown. 96 00:06:43,971 --> 00:06:48,291 Speaker 2: Then my grandfather eventually retired, but he would hang out 97 00:06:48,331 --> 00:06:51,211 Speaker 2: in a hardware store in Chinatown, like he'd. 98 00:06:51,131 --> 00:06:53,011 Speaker 1: Just hang out there, like chatting away with the other 99 00:06:53,091 --> 00:06:54,731 Speaker 1: older guys exactly. 100 00:06:55,411 --> 00:06:58,931 Speaker 2: And in fact, when I was at Princeton. I did 101 00:06:58,971 --> 00:07:02,251 Speaker 2: my senior thesis on called the Old Ones of Chinatown, 102 00:07:02,331 --> 00:07:05,531 Speaker 2: and it was on the Chinatown Senior Citizens and I 103 00:07:05,571 --> 00:07:09,251 Speaker 2: took some photos. I did some interviewing of people who 104 00:07:09,451 --> 00:07:16,811 Speaker 2: I and different facilities and services in Chinatown. I enjoyed 105 00:07:16,811 --> 00:07:19,651 Speaker 2: doing my thesis, but I wound up going to law school, 106 00:07:20,131 --> 00:07:22,251 Speaker 2: largely because I didn't know what to do with myself 107 00:07:22,291 --> 00:07:22,811 Speaker 2: at the time. 108 00:07:23,131 --> 00:07:25,491 Speaker 1: What did you like about the law and you went 109 00:07:25,571 --> 00:07:26,131 Speaker 1: to law school? 110 00:07:28,011 --> 00:07:31,531 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I went to law school unsure of 111 00:07:31,571 --> 00:07:33,571 Speaker 2: whether I would become a lawyer. I had never met 112 00:07:33,571 --> 00:07:36,811 Speaker 2: a lawyer, certainly not a judge as I was growing up. 113 00:07:38,091 --> 00:07:40,811 Speaker 2: My parents must have had lawyers to help them with 114 00:07:41,571 --> 00:07:45,891 Speaker 2: the process of becoming naturalized, but I never met any 115 00:07:46,491 --> 00:07:51,731 Speaker 2: and went to Fordham Law School. That first summer I 116 00:07:51,811 --> 00:07:55,771 Speaker 2: got an internship with a judge. In this courthouse, I 117 00:07:55,811 --> 00:08:00,851 Speaker 2: saw some trials. I remember a bank robbery trial. The 118 00:08:00,971 --> 00:08:05,491 Speaker 2: judge let me draft some opinions which were then edited 119 00:08:05,531 --> 00:08:10,131 Speaker 2: by a law clerk. Being at the center of the 120 00:08:10,131 --> 00:08:15,411 Speaker 2: administration of justice was something I very much enjoyed, and 121 00:08:15,451 --> 00:08:17,891 Speaker 2: I decided that summer that I wanted to come back 122 00:08:17,931 --> 00:08:22,411 Speaker 2: one day and be a judge in the courthouse, and then, 123 00:08:22,571 --> 00:08:25,771 Speaker 2: of course, many years later, here I am again right 124 00:08:25,811 --> 00:08:29,211 Speaker 2: on the edge of China, exactly as a federal judge. 125 00:08:29,611 --> 00:08:32,851 Speaker 2: At one point when I was a district judge in 126 00:08:32,891 --> 00:08:36,090 Speaker 2: the other building, and right across the street from the 127 00:08:36,131 --> 00:08:41,050 Speaker 2: other courthouse is Columbus Park. We played basketball there once 128 00:08:41,131 --> 00:08:43,851 Speaker 2: a week at seven point thirty in the morning. We'd 129 00:08:43,930 --> 00:08:48,090 Speaker 2: have a pickup game. We'd have prosecutors, law clerks, a 130 00:08:48,170 --> 00:08:52,771 Speaker 2: variety of people in New York City playground basketball. There 131 00:08:52,810 --> 00:08:56,290 Speaker 2: was one full court, and we wanted to run full court, 132 00:08:56,570 --> 00:09:00,690 Speaker 2: but there were senior citizens doing tai chi, there were 133 00:09:00,690 --> 00:09:06,330 Speaker 2: other community folks, and there was a little bit of competitiveness. However, 134 00:09:07,050 --> 00:09:10,450 Speaker 2: I started getting a lot of attention with the made 135 00:09:10,491 --> 00:09:13,891 Speaker 2: Off case and getting nominated to the circuit, and the 136 00:09:13,970 --> 00:09:18,251 Speaker 2: Chinatown newspapers would cover this, and at some point the 137 00:09:18,290 --> 00:09:21,490 Speaker 2: folks realized who I was, and then they started offering 138 00:09:21,530 --> 00:09:24,370 Speaker 2: me tea and cookies in the morning and letting us 139 00:09:24,891 --> 00:09:28,491 Speaker 2: have the full court. And that's why. 140 00:09:31,251 --> 00:09:34,331 Speaker 1: After the break, how Judge Chin began writing and performing 141 00:09:34,410 --> 00:09:54,491 Speaker 1: reenactments of famous cases brought by Asian Americans. I'm back 142 00:09:54,530 --> 00:09:57,851 Speaker 1: with Judge Denny Chin a while back, he and his 143 00:09:57,891 --> 00:10:01,891 Speaker 1: wife Kathy Herodicin started writing and staging re enactments of 144 00:10:01,970 --> 00:10:06,210 Speaker 1: famous cases involving Asian American litigants. They performed one every 145 00:10:06,290 --> 00:10:09,371 Speaker 1: year at the National Asian Pacific Bar Association in New York. 146 00:10:10,170 --> 00:10:13,891 Speaker 1: I asked Judge Chin about how exactly these reenactments come together. 147 00:10:14,930 --> 00:10:24,730 Speaker 2: We take excerpts from trial transcripts, judges' opinions, briefs, historical 148 00:10:24,810 --> 00:10:29,651 Speaker 2: newspaper articles. We weave those excerpts in with original narration 149 00:10:30,170 --> 00:10:34,290 Speaker 2: that Kathy and I wright, and then we present these 150 00:10:34,330 --> 00:10:38,330 Speaker 2: with a cast of lawyers who are would be actors, 151 00:10:38,810 --> 00:10:41,011 Speaker 2: many lawyers, particularly trial lawyers. 152 00:10:42,011 --> 00:10:44,250 Speaker 1: You know, this part of it is the performance. 153 00:10:44,330 --> 00:10:47,810 Speaker 2: Part of it is performing, and so these are performances, 154 00:10:48,251 --> 00:10:53,170 Speaker 2: but they raise issues that continue to be important. They 155 00:10:53,251 --> 00:10:59,931 Speaker 2: tell compelling stories about the early Asian Americans. For example, 156 00:11:00,011 --> 00:11:06,450 Speaker 2: we have a really interesting reenactment about twenty two lud 157 00:11:06,530 --> 00:11:12,771 Speaker 2: as an LWD Chinese women, allegedly lued I should say. 158 00:11:13,210 --> 00:11:17,131 Speaker 2: They arrived on a boat in San Francisco in the 159 00:11:17,210 --> 00:11:21,970 Speaker 2: eighteen eighties, and the California authorities wouldn't let them off 160 00:11:22,570 --> 00:11:26,530 Speaker 2: unless they posted a five hundred dollar bond. Each five 161 00:11:26,570 --> 00:11:30,210 Speaker 2: hundred dollars was allowed money back then? Why why wouldn't 162 00:11:30,210 --> 00:11:33,451 Speaker 2: they let them off? Well, they were women traveling alone, 163 00:11:33,530 --> 00:11:36,570 Speaker 2: and they were Chinese, and they were suspected of being lewd, 164 00:11:37,170 --> 00:11:40,491 Speaker 2: of being prostitutes. And there was a trial on whether 165 00:11:40,530 --> 00:11:43,530 Speaker 2: they were prostitutes. And the case went up to the 166 00:11:43,530 --> 00:11:46,170 Speaker 2: Supreme Court of the United States. And it's a case 167 00:11:46,251 --> 00:11:50,491 Speaker 2: that is still raising important issues. How was it decided 168 00:11:51,330 --> 00:11:54,611 Speaker 2: the women won? Oh that's good, Well, that's good. But 169 00:11:54,651 --> 00:11:58,970 Speaker 2: what happened to them? They probably were being trafficked. They 170 00:11:59,090 --> 00:12:05,571 Speaker 2: probably were the victims of trafficking. They were represented by 171 00:12:05,570 --> 00:12:08,611 Speaker 2: a very good lawyer, a former judge. How could they 172 00:12:08,651 --> 00:12:11,330 Speaker 2: afford to hire such a good lawyer? 173 00:12:12,651 --> 00:12:13,331 Speaker 1: The gangs? 174 00:12:13,611 --> 00:12:17,491 Speaker 2: It was probably the trafficker or the gangs who wanted 175 00:12:17,530 --> 00:12:23,771 Speaker 2: to protect their investment. But can a state take matters 176 00:12:23,851 --> 00:12:28,771 Speaker 2: involving immigration into its own hands when it feels the 177 00:12:28,771 --> 00:12:32,930 Speaker 2: federal government isn't doing enough? And that was very much 178 00:12:33,570 --> 00:12:37,690 Speaker 2: an issue a few years ago. Now it's the opposite. 179 00:12:37,771 --> 00:12:41,450 Speaker 2: Now it's the federal government thinking states are chewing too 180 00:12:41,491 --> 00:12:45,250 Speaker 2: much to interfere with the immigration authorities. But you can 181 00:12:45,251 --> 00:12:52,450 Speaker 2: see how these legal issues are still important. So how 182 00:12:52,491 --> 00:12:54,491 Speaker 2: did I get into this I was a member of 183 00:12:54,530 --> 00:12:58,731 Speaker 2: something called the Federal Bar Council in of Court and 184 00:12:58,810 --> 00:13:02,811 Speaker 2: when I joined, each month a team led by a 185 00:13:02,891 --> 00:13:06,491 Speaker 2: judge would do some kind of presentation. We did the 186 00:13:06,530 --> 00:13:11,690 Speaker 2: trial of fl Rosenberg, and incidentally I I played mister 187 00:13:11,891 --> 00:13:16,450 Speaker 2: rosen Perk because it was the smallest part, and we 188 00:13:16,491 --> 00:13:19,771 Speaker 2: reenacted the sentencing and I had the death sentence imposed 189 00:13:19,810 --> 00:13:23,210 Speaker 2: on me, and it was no fun, even though it 190 00:13:23,251 --> 00:13:26,970 Speaker 2: was pretend having the death penalty impost on me and 191 00:13:27,891 --> 00:13:29,491 Speaker 2: it was It was actually very good for me as 192 00:13:29,530 --> 00:13:32,170 Speaker 2: a judge. I was a judge like it. Yeah, I 193 00:13:32,210 --> 00:13:34,771 Speaker 2: mean I played the defendant and I had the lawyers 194 00:13:34,771 --> 00:13:37,570 Speaker 2: pointing at me and saying I was stupid but not criminal, 195 00:13:37,690 --> 00:13:41,970 Speaker 2: that kind of thing, And it gave me some appreciation 196 00:13:42,330 --> 00:13:45,891 Speaker 2: of the difficulties of going through the process. 197 00:13:46,371 --> 00:13:49,491 Speaker 1: Wow, in a way, like what you're yeah, what you 198 00:13:49,570 --> 00:13:51,730 Speaker 1: do with those reenactments is like what we're doing. Did 199 00:13:51,731 --> 00:13:53,690 Speaker 1: we trd to do with this podcast, which is taking 200 00:13:53,731 --> 00:13:56,690 Speaker 1: the court docs, taking codes from people taking a legal 201 00:13:56,771 --> 00:14:01,490 Speaker 1: case and kind of like reenacting it. Understand it. 202 00:14:01,651 --> 00:14:04,611 Speaker 2: We think of it as courtroom theater. There's a lot 203 00:14:04,651 --> 00:14:08,091 Speaker 2: of drama in the courtroom, but beyond that, you know, 204 00:14:08,131 --> 00:14:11,170 Speaker 2: there are compelling stories about the people, and then there 205 00:14:11,170 --> 00:14:13,891 Speaker 2: are important issues that are still important today, whether it's 206 00:14:13,970 --> 00:14:18,971 Speaker 2: human trafficking or racial violence. Now, because of all these 207 00:14:19,051 --> 00:14:23,171 Speaker 2: reenactments of the Asian American cases, I developed a real 208 00:14:23,291 --> 00:14:26,411 Speaker 2: love for Asian American legal history. 209 00:14:26,251 --> 00:14:29,571 Speaker 1: Like what have you found is unique about the Asian 210 00:14:29,571 --> 00:14:32,291 Speaker 1: American experience and the laws focusing on that. 211 00:14:33,931 --> 00:14:38,771 Speaker 2: Well. First of all, even though the numbers of Asian 212 00:14:38,771 --> 00:14:43,811 Speaker 2: Americans in the early days the Chinese in the US 213 00:14:43,891 --> 00:14:49,571 Speaker 2: population was very, very low, there were lots of cases, 214 00:14:49,571 --> 00:14:52,251 Speaker 2: brought quite a few cases all the way to the 215 00:14:52,291 --> 00:14:55,971 Speaker 2: Supreme Court. Asian Americans have been at the center of 216 00:14:56,210 --> 00:15:04,771 Speaker 2: many many different issues, immigration, citizenship, violence, there were many massacres, 217 00:15:05,090 --> 00:15:11,651 Speaker 2: the civil rights cases currently in addition to the pandemic 218 00:15:11,731 --> 00:15:16,571 Speaker 2: and the anti Asian violence, affirmative action, and the early 219 00:15:16,691 --> 00:15:22,731 Speaker 2: litigants were folks of very limited means, women suspected of 220 00:15:22,771 --> 00:15:30,571 Speaker 2: being prostitutes, cooks, laundrymen. One of the first cases to 221 00:15:30,611 --> 00:15:34,411 Speaker 2: be studied in con law is the laundryman case. San 222 00:15:34,451 --> 00:15:37,850 Speaker 2: Francisco passed the law that if you wanted to run 223 00:15:38,210 --> 00:15:42,371 Speaker 2: a laundry, it had to be in a stone or 224 00:15:42,411 --> 00:15:45,970 Speaker 2: brick building. You couldn't have it in a wooden building, 225 00:15:46,531 --> 00:15:51,970 Speaker 2: ostensibly because of the fear of fires. There was an exception. 226 00:15:52,090 --> 00:15:56,331 Speaker 2: You could apply for an exception so that you could 227 00:15:56,371 --> 00:16:00,331 Speaker 2: continue to operate your laundry in a wooden building, and 228 00:16:02,531 --> 00:16:06,611 Speaker 2: two hundred Chinese applied for the exception. There were many, 229 00:16:06,611 --> 00:16:11,371 Speaker 2: many Chinese laundries in San Francisco. Every single one was denied. 230 00:16:12,371 --> 00:16:19,091 Speaker 2: There were eighty applications by non Chinese, everyone but one 231 00:16:19,451 --> 00:16:23,330 Speaker 2: was granted. The one that was not granted was a woman. 232 00:16:25,691 --> 00:16:29,651 Speaker 2: And so it's you know, a law can be discriminatory 233 00:16:30,251 --> 00:16:34,931 Speaker 2: as apply even though on its face it appears neutral, 234 00:16:35,210 --> 00:16:39,331 Speaker 2: it's applied in a way that is discriminatory. So that 235 00:16:39,451 --> 00:16:42,291 Speaker 2: was a very important ruling that the Supreme Court. So 236 00:16:42,330 --> 00:16:44,811 Speaker 2: it's very important not just for the Chinese, but for 237 00:16:44,931 --> 00:16:47,771 Speaker 2: many You can't take a law that is on its 238 00:16:47,811 --> 00:16:51,371 Speaker 2: face neutral and apply it in a discriminatory way. And 239 00:16:52,131 --> 00:16:57,091 Speaker 2: it also said that equal protection applies not just to 240 00:16:57,131 --> 00:17:02,330 Speaker 2: citizens but to all persons. And even though most all 241 00:17:02,691 --> 00:17:06,411 Speaker 2: of these Chinese launchermen were not US citizens, they were 242 00:17:06,451 --> 00:17:11,051 Speaker 2: still entitle to the protection of the US Constitution. So 243 00:17:11,131 --> 00:17:15,171 Speaker 2: this is a great example compelling stories that there were 244 00:17:15,251 --> 00:17:19,531 Speaker 2: actually two laundrymen involved. They had run their laundries for 245 00:17:19,611 --> 00:17:23,931 Speaker 2: decades in San Francisco. People limited means, yet they were 246 00:17:23,931 --> 00:17:30,691 Speaker 2: bringing these really innovative, creative legal theories. These were important 247 00:17:30,771 --> 00:17:34,371 Speaker 2: rights and there were benefits not just for them but 248 00:17:34,451 --> 00:17:38,411 Speaker 2: for many, many others. And so, you know, doing the 249 00:17:38,491 --> 00:17:43,011 Speaker 2: reenactments helped me really learn this Asian American legal history. 250 00:17:44,051 --> 00:17:47,531 Speaker 2: And then at some point I decided that we needed 251 00:17:47,651 --> 00:17:51,171 Speaker 2: to have a seminar to teach it. My colleague and 252 00:17:51,211 --> 00:17:56,370 Speaker 2: I at Fordham Law School in twenty seventeen developed a 253 00:17:56,411 --> 00:18:01,131 Speaker 2: seminar on Asian Americans and the Law. There are now 254 00:18:02,571 --> 00:18:07,291 Speaker 2: fourteen or more law schools using our syllabus, at least 255 00:18:07,291 --> 00:18:11,291 Speaker 2: as a start, using our reading tearials and offering a 256 00:18:11,331 --> 00:18:17,691 Speaker 2: similar summinar on Asian Americans and the Law. 257 00:18:20,371 --> 00:18:23,291 Speaker 1: Coming up after the break, Judge ten and I talk 258 00:18:23,331 --> 00:18:26,851 Speaker 1: about the Chinese Exclusion Act and the violence it unleashed. 259 00:18:40,131 --> 00:18:42,771 Speaker 1: One of the really fun parts of making the season 260 00:18:42,891 --> 00:18:46,251 Speaker 1: of the Chinatown Sting was getting to record the movie 261 00:18:46,491 --> 00:18:50,571 Speaker 1: and Broadway musical actor Kelly Leong. He's been the voice 262 00:18:50,651 --> 00:18:53,651 Speaker 1: of the court docs in the series. When he came in, 263 00:18:53,891 --> 00:18:56,251 Speaker 1: it was just clear that we were in the presence 264 00:18:56,291 --> 00:18:59,090 Speaker 1: of a talented professional, and we also asked him to 265 00:18:59,131 --> 00:19:02,931 Speaker 1: record a portion of the original language of the Chinese 266 00:19:03,011 --> 00:19:07,330 Speaker 1: Exclusion Act that Congress passed in eighteen eighty two. I 267 00:19:07,371 --> 00:19:10,011 Speaker 1: brought that recording with me when I interviewed Judge Chen, 268 00:19:10,731 --> 00:19:13,931 Speaker 1: and I played it for him. Here's that reenactment from 269 00:19:13,971 --> 00:19:14,531 Speaker 1: Taly Leon. 270 00:19:15,571 --> 00:19:19,051 Speaker 3: Any Chinese person found unlawfully within the United States shall 271 00:19:19,091 --> 00:19:22,091 Speaker 3: be caused to be removed. Therefrom to the country from 272 00:19:22,091 --> 00:19:25,011 Speaker 3: whence he came by direction of the President of the 273 00:19:25,091 --> 00:19:28,091 Speaker 3: United States and at the cost of the United States, 274 00:19:28,451 --> 00:19:32,291 Speaker 3: after being brought before some justice judge or commissioner of 275 00:19:32,291 --> 00:19:35,051 Speaker 3: a court of the United States and found to be 276 00:19:35,091 --> 00:19:38,931 Speaker 3: one not lawfully entitled to be or remain in the 277 00:19:39,051 --> 00:19:40,411 Speaker 3: United States. 278 00:19:41,051 --> 00:19:43,610 Speaker 1: And yeah, I guess that's what you think when you 279 00:19:43,651 --> 00:19:44,610 Speaker 1: hear those words. 280 00:19:44,931 --> 00:19:49,891 Speaker 2: Well, it's very moving to hear the words, and that 281 00:19:49,931 --> 00:19:54,850 Speaker 2: person read them very well. The Chinese Exclusion Act of 282 00:19:55,091 --> 00:20:00,850 Speaker 2: eighteen eighty two and the subsequent amendments and extensions is 283 00:20:00,891 --> 00:20:05,451 Speaker 2: a very important part of Asian American legal history. Why 284 00:20:05,851 --> 00:20:11,211 Speaker 2: was this happening, What was driving Congress to pass this. 285 00:20:12,291 --> 00:20:18,691 Speaker 2: It's often overlooked that the China towns contributed greatly to 286 00:20:20,291 --> 00:20:24,091 Speaker 2: the broader American society as well. You know, the trade 287 00:20:26,131 --> 00:20:31,131 Speaker 2: shipping goods back to China, bringing goods from China. There 288 00:20:31,131 --> 00:20:36,051 Speaker 2: were all sorts of taxes imposed on the Chinese, and 289 00:20:36,091 --> 00:20:40,811 Speaker 2: the Chinese paid, you know, the Chinese contributed. There were 290 00:20:40,851 --> 00:20:44,731 Speaker 2: massacres of Chinese gold miners, but many of the early 291 00:20:44,811 --> 00:20:50,091 Speaker 2: Chinese gold miners would come in after a location or 292 00:20:50,131 --> 00:20:53,971 Speaker 2: a mine had been abandoned by the original miners, and 293 00:20:54,011 --> 00:20:57,491 Speaker 2: then they would try to like do the leftovers almost 294 00:20:57,571 --> 00:21:00,131 Speaker 2: but they would find ways to get more gold out 295 00:21:00,171 --> 00:21:05,090 Speaker 2: of it. And I don't know, and you know, originally 296 00:21:05,451 --> 00:21:10,011 Speaker 2: the Chinese were welcomed. There was more curiosity city than 297 00:21:10,091 --> 00:21:15,771 Speaker 2: anything else. But then in time these feelings grew. Part 298 00:21:15,771 --> 00:21:20,291 Speaker 2: of it was political. When Governor Bigler was running for reelection, 299 00:21:20,891 --> 00:21:24,571 Speaker 2: he seized on the Chinese question and he was in California. 300 00:21:24,691 --> 00:21:27,651 Speaker 2: He was in California, he was facing reelection and he 301 00:21:27,851 --> 00:21:31,891 Speaker 2: used this as a campaign theme. What the Chinese are doing, 302 00:21:31,971 --> 00:21:35,211 Speaker 2: They're taking our goal, sending it back, et cetera. You 303 00:21:35,251 --> 00:21:42,491 Speaker 2: could see efforts being used, politicians and others using these 304 00:21:42,531 --> 00:21:49,451 Speaker 2: things to rally the masses. In the eighteen eighties, many 305 00:21:49,651 --> 00:21:55,291 Speaker 2: communities around the country literally drove out all their Chinese residents. 306 00:21:57,571 --> 00:22:01,491 Speaker 2: The Chinese were expelled from the towns, and one of 307 00:22:01,531 --> 00:22:06,610 Speaker 2: them was Eureka. In California, there were a prince and 308 00:22:06,651 --> 00:22:09,411 Speaker 2: professor has done research on this. There were one hundred 309 00:22:09,491 --> 00:22:12,650 Speaker 2: it's sixty eight communities at least that drove out all 310 00:22:12,691 --> 00:22:16,931 Speaker 2: their Chinese residents, like the West Coast on the West 311 00:22:16,971 --> 00:22:27,251 Speaker 2: Coast California, but also further north Seattle, Bellingham, Washington. Wasn't 312 00:22:27,291 --> 00:22:32,171 Speaker 2: just the Chinese and Bellingham, it was the South Asians. 313 00:22:32,771 --> 00:22:36,731 Speaker 2: Many of them were Sikh, although they were called Hindus 314 00:22:37,331 --> 00:22:42,251 Speaker 2: at the time, and in Eureka the numbers vary, but 315 00:22:42,331 --> 00:22:44,691 Speaker 2: it was two hundred, three hundred, As many as eight 316 00:22:44,731 --> 00:22:49,251 Speaker 2: hundred Chinese were driven out of town. 317 00:22:50,011 --> 00:22:52,131 Speaker 1: What was the driving out? How did the driving out work? 318 00:22:52,171 --> 00:22:52,651 Speaker 3: What was it? 319 00:22:54,011 --> 00:22:57,051 Speaker 2: Several hundred people banned it together but including leaders of 320 00:22:57,091 --> 00:23:01,771 Speaker 2: the community, and physically forced them out and put them 321 00:23:01,811 --> 00:23:04,571 Speaker 2: on boats and sent them off to San Francisco. Oh well, 322 00:23:04,931 --> 00:23:07,491 Speaker 2: many of them were where could they go? And many 323 00:23:07,491 --> 00:23:12,131 Speaker 2: of them wound up heading east. There were some lawsuits 324 00:23:12,131 --> 00:23:16,251 Speaker 2: brought as a result of Eureka, and there was one 325 00:23:16,331 --> 00:23:21,691 Speaker 2: case where I think it was approximately fifty one residents 326 00:23:21,731 --> 00:23:26,371 Speaker 2: and merchants. Chinese residents and merchants brought what was essentially 327 00:23:26,411 --> 00:23:27,251 Speaker 2: a class action. 328 00:23:28,131 --> 00:23:29,611 Speaker 1: Were there class actions already then. 329 00:23:29,651 --> 00:23:31,850 Speaker 2: No, there were class actions back then. There was no 330 00:23:31,971 --> 00:23:34,411 Speaker 2: such thing as RUL twenty three of the Federal Rules 331 00:23:34,411 --> 00:23:37,451 Speaker 2: of Civil Procedure. So this is yet another example of 332 00:23:38,011 --> 00:23:41,850 Speaker 2: creative innovative lawyering. They filled out forms and put in 333 00:23:41,931 --> 00:23:45,931 Speaker 2: their individual details and then put them together into one complaint, 334 00:23:46,331 --> 00:23:48,451 Speaker 2: and so it literally it was like a class action. 335 00:23:48,571 --> 00:23:48,811 Speaker 1: Wow. 336 00:23:49,531 --> 00:23:51,411 Speaker 2: Two of the fifty one who were part of the 337 00:23:51,491 --> 00:23:54,771 Speaker 2: complaint were women, and one of them, in her form 338 00:23:54,811 --> 00:23:59,571 Speaker 2: put in parentheses woman. She wanted to tell the court 339 00:23:59,651 --> 00:24:03,091 Speaker 2: that she was a woman. Now that case was eventually 340 00:24:03,131 --> 00:24:03,811 Speaker 2: dismissed and. 341 00:24:03,771 --> 00:24:05,531 Speaker 1: They were asking to be able to stay in Eureka. 342 00:24:05,691 --> 00:24:08,331 Speaker 2: No, they were asking for money damages. But so these 343 00:24:08,411 --> 00:24:14,251 Speaker 2: individuals sued damages. And another creative innovative aspect about this, 344 00:24:14,371 --> 00:24:18,451 Speaker 2: they were trying to hold the city of Eureka responsible 345 00:24:18,531 --> 00:24:22,691 Speaker 2: for failing to control the rioters. Yeah, and they were 346 00:24:22,731 --> 00:24:26,330 Speaker 2: asserting this. It failed, but it sent a message that 347 00:24:26,651 --> 00:24:29,651 Speaker 2: we're going to fight back, you know. And so there 348 00:24:29,691 --> 00:24:35,051 Speaker 2: were many instances of the Chinese being driven out of 349 00:24:35,091 --> 00:24:40,571 Speaker 2: the community in Seattle. The Rioters rounded up the Chinese, 350 00:24:40,691 --> 00:24:44,171 Speaker 2: brought them down to the wharf. They collected money to 351 00:24:44,251 --> 00:24:47,931 Speaker 2: pay for their passages on a boat so that they 352 00:24:47,971 --> 00:24:53,571 Speaker 2: could be sent off, and they were even willing to 353 00:24:53,571 --> 00:24:54,731 Speaker 2: put in their own money. 354 00:24:54,531 --> 00:24:56,731 Speaker 1: To do this. I guess I'm wondering, of course, your 355 00:24:56,731 --> 00:24:59,011 Speaker 1: students are going to, you know, come away with a 356 00:24:59,051 --> 00:25:01,850 Speaker 1: lot from the class. But if, like you know, years 357 00:25:01,891 --> 00:25:04,251 Speaker 1: down the line, when they're remembering their Asian Americans in 358 00:25:04,331 --> 00:25:06,171 Speaker 1: the wall class, if they were to just come away 359 00:25:06,211 --> 00:25:09,011 Speaker 1: with like one sentence, their one memory from that class, 360 00:25:09,611 --> 00:25:11,531 Speaker 1: what would you want them to hold on to from 361 00:25:11,531 --> 00:25:12,211 Speaker 1: the experience. 362 00:25:13,091 --> 00:25:18,971 Speaker 2: I think Asian American legal history teaches us a lot 363 00:25:19,131 --> 00:25:26,251 Speaker 2: about how the constitution is supposed to work, how sometimes 364 00:25:26,251 --> 00:25:32,931 Speaker 2: it works, but unfortunately, how often it doesn't work. It 365 00:25:32,971 --> 00:25:40,531 Speaker 2: teaches us that committed, resourceful, courageous people can do a 366 00:25:40,571 --> 00:25:44,491 Speaker 2: lot to help make things better. 367 00:25:45,411 --> 00:25:49,931 Speaker 1: Yeah, having studied you know, Asian Americans in the law 368 00:25:50,091 --> 00:25:55,211 Speaker 1: and seeing how, you know, sometimes cases are decided in 369 00:25:55,291 --> 00:25:57,971 Speaker 1: ways in retrospect that seem wrong, or like, how that 370 00:25:58,011 --> 00:26:00,131 Speaker 1: makes you think about your role as a judge in 371 00:26:00,171 --> 00:26:03,411 Speaker 1: a system that is quite platantly from the textbooks imperfect. 372 00:26:03,851 --> 00:26:06,850 Speaker 2: Yeah, our system is imperfect, but I think, based on 373 00:26:07,211 --> 00:26:09,811 Speaker 2: thirty one years of being a judge, I think we 374 00:26:09,931 --> 00:26:13,251 Speaker 2: usually get things right. It works pretty well. It is 375 00:26:13,291 --> 00:26:18,531 Speaker 2: not perfect. Now studying these cases, there are a couple 376 00:26:18,571 --> 00:26:19,091 Speaker 2: of things. 377 00:26:19,331 --> 00:26:19,531 Speaker 1: You know. 378 00:26:19,611 --> 00:26:24,531 Speaker 2: One is to be creative and think broadly about things, 379 00:26:25,531 --> 00:26:34,451 Speaker 2: but two is scrutinize things. Don't just blindly defer to 380 00:26:35,011 --> 00:26:39,610 Speaker 2: the executive branch during interment. I do not believe the 381 00:26:39,651 --> 00:26:48,531 Speaker 2: Supreme Court sufficiently put the government to its proof. One 382 00:26:48,611 --> 00:26:51,891 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty thousand Japanese Americans on the West coast 383 00:26:51,971 --> 00:26:58,051 Speaker 2: right military necessity. We don't have time to individually consider 384 00:26:58,931 --> 00:27:03,411 Speaker 2: whether someone is a danger a job, a particular Japanese 385 00:27:03,491 --> 00:27:08,531 Speaker 2: person is a danger in terms of espionage and sabotage. 386 00:27:09,091 --> 00:27:12,851 Speaker 2: We don't have time to have hearings or individual consideration. 387 00:27:13,811 --> 00:27:18,491 Speaker 2: And the Court just accepted the government at its word 388 00:27:19,491 --> 00:27:23,811 Speaker 2: instead of pressing back, instead of saying, show us what 389 00:27:23,811 --> 00:27:28,411 Speaker 2: are the examples of sabotage? Take away the children, take 390 00:27:28,411 --> 00:27:33,971 Speaker 2: away the older people, take away the women. Women really 391 00:27:34,011 --> 00:27:37,571 Speaker 2: weren't part of the military then and were less of 392 00:27:37,611 --> 00:27:41,051 Speaker 2: a threat. Two thirds of the one hundred and twenty 393 00:27:41,051 --> 00:27:44,571 Speaker 2: thousand were American citizens. When you start looking at it 394 00:27:44,611 --> 00:27:48,091 Speaker 2: more carefully. Did we actually have the time to give 395 00:27:48,171 --> 00:27:50,771 Speaker 2: them hearings and to look at their at least to 396 00:27:50,811 --> 00:27:54,851 Speaker 2: do an interview of some kind, And instead the government 397 00:27:54,851 --> 00:27:59,011 Speaker 2: took months to build assembly centers and then ten internment camps. 398 00:28:00,091 --> 00:28:05,011 Speaker 2: So you know, one lesson is, don't just accept the 399 00:28:05,051 --> 00:28:08,611 Speaker 2: government at its word. Put it to its proof. That's appropriate. 400 00:28:08,971 --> 00:28:12,331 Speaker 2: And I think we're seeing that these days. Many of 401 00:28:13,371 --> 00:28:17,291 Speaker 2: the lower courts, the trial judges are making decisions where 402 00:28:17,331 --> 00:28:22,371 Speaker 2: I think they are indeed requiring the government to support 403 00:28:22,451 --> 00:28:27,131 Speaker 2: what they are asserting and not just blindly accepting their say. 404 00:28:27,171 --> 00:28:32,691 Speaker 1: So, as I said goodbye to Judge Chin, he stood 405 00:28:32,771 --> 00:28:35,571 Speaker 1: up to find something for me. Something He says he 406 00:28:35,651 --> 00:28:39,291 Speaker 1: never lets anyone leave his chambers without Everyone. 407 00:28:39,011 --> 00:28:40,531 Speaker 2: Should have a pocket constitution. 408 00:28:40,971 --> 00:28:45,171 Speaker 1: Uh, thank you. I so appreciate Judge Jenny Chin taking 409 00:28:45,251 --> 00:28:47,771 Speaker 1: the time to talk with me. He sits on the 410 00:28:47,891 --> 00:28:50,931 Speaker 1: United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, and 411 00:28:50,971 --> 00:28:54,011 Speaker 1: he's the co author of a forthcoming textbook called Asian 412 00:28:54,051 --> 00:29:04,531 Speaker 1: Americans and the Law. This episode of the Chinatownsting was 413 00:29:04,531 --> 00:29:08,331 Speaker 1: produced by Sonya Gurwit and edited by Julia Barton. It 414 00:29:08,451 --> 00:29:13,171 Speaker 1: was engineered by Sarah Bruger. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. 415 00:29:13,851 --> 00:29:17,051 Speaker 1: Our music was composed by John Sung, with additional music 416 00:29:17,091 --> 00:29:22,091 Speaker 1: by Jake Gorski, all voiceover work by Tally Leong. The 417 00:29:22,171 --> 00:29:25,771 Speaker 1: Chinatowns Day is a production of Pushkin Industries. To find 418 00:29:25,811 --> 00:29:30,131 Speaker 1: more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 419 00:29:30,611 --> 00:29:33,851 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Lydia gene Cox.