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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share, leave us a message on our hotline number

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Speaker 1: at five one three nine hundred two nine five five.

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Speaker 2: Or she had us an email at trust Me pod

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Speaker 2: at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me, trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 1: I've never lived.

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Speaker 5: To you, I never have a live.

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Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 1: don't welcome to trust Me the podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and the abusive power from two hometown girls have

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Speaker 1: actually experienced it.

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Speaker 6: I am Lola.

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Speaker 7: Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth and.

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Speaker 1: Today's part two of our interview with Jillian Lauren, former

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Speaker 1: member of the Harem of the Prince of Brunei and

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Speaker 1: author of Some Girls, My Life and a Harem, as

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Speaker 1: well as her new book, Behold the Monster. Today, she's

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Speaker 1: going to tell us about what led her to go

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Speaker 1: back to Brunei after she left the first time, smuggling

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Speaker 1: money out of the country, and her meeting with the

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Speaker 1: Sultan O.

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Speaker 2: She'll also talk about what it was like falling in

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Speaker 2: love with the man who had complete control over her life.

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Speaker 2: And just to tell you a little bit more about

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Speaker 2: her new book. It details her story of how she

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Speaker 2: got to know the most prolific serial killer in American history.

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Speaker 1: That's right, She's led a fascinating life. We get into

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Speaker 1: some more stuff today. It'd be weird if we didn't

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Speaker 1: get into some more stuff. It'd be weird if we

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Speaker 1: just said the exact same things as the week before.

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Speaker 1: That's not what we're doing. Megan, kindly tell me Culty's

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Speaker 1: thing this week.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I was trying to do a deeper dive

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Speaker 2: into my previous cultier thing, but then what just popped up?

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Speaker 2: And I think this is possibly breaking news. The self

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Speaker 2: proclaimed crocodile of Wall Street and her husband are arrested

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Speaker 2: for laundering four point five billion in bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: Oh how do you launder? Okay what? I don't know

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Speaker 1: anything about this? Who so, how do you launder bitcoin?

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Speaker 2: It says they did it, and they stolen twenty sixteen

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Speaker 2: bit phoinix exchange hack. You guys, this is all just

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Speaker 2: from the headline.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this goes against everything that tech bros always say,

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Speaker 1: which is that like, oh, bitcoin is like virtually unhackable

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Speaker 1: you can't steal it because it's all on the block.

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Speaker 3: Change.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the cult of having to appear that you

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Speaker 2: have a private jet, that you have a ka trillion dollars.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a ka trillion. I mean who doesn't want a

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Speaker 1: ka trillion?

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Speaker 7: I mean I have a ka trillion in bitcoin?

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Speaker 1: No, I mean, yeah, that's the society we live in.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's fucking capitalism. That's what this particular guest can

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Speaker 1: speak to that in particular exactly. And it's hard to

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Speaker 1: extricate yourself from that because like it's we still live

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Speaker 1: in the society we live in, and but.

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Speaker 6: Like we don't need jets, right, Like we don't need jets.

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Speaker 1: It's one thing to want to like live comfortably, Like

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Speaker 1: that is a very fair and valid thing to want.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, to want a stable home, to want

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Speaker 1: to have enough money to like have a good life.

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Speaker 1: But when we're talking like private jets and like five,

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Speaker 1: that shit is fucking unnecessary and you should be feeding

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Speaker 1: people with that money.

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Speaker 7: Amen.

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Speaker 1: Mine is that I learned about a cult that I

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Speaker 1: was shocked to have never heard about.

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Speaker 7: I'm shocked you've never heard about it too.

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Speaker 1: I Mean there are so many there have been so many,

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Speaker 1: but I was particularly shocked to know that I hadn't

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Speaker 1: heard about this one because it is a Utah like

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Speaker 1: Mormon offshoe cult from the seventies, and I thought I

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Speaker 1: knew about all of those, and it turns out I

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Speaker 1: did not.

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Speaker 8: So.

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Speaker 1: I was actually on a podcast this week, a horror

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Speaker 1: film podcast, and one of the hosts brought this up

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Speaker 1: to me.

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Speaker 6: Have you ever heard of Emmanuel David?

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Speaker 7: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: So Emmanuel David was an LDS guy who like served

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Speaker 1: his mission like a good Mormon, and started having like

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Speaker 1: delusions while he was on his mission, and they sent

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Speaker 1: him home, which doesn't happen very often. He then went

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Speaker 1: to Byu again living a pretty normal Mormon life, found

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Speaker 1: this like Swedish wife and had a revelation that he

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Speaker 1: told her that they're supposed to get married, which, by

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Speaker 1: the way, super common. Like my own family has instances

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Speaker 1: of people doing that, like praying about something and being

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Speaker 1: like God told me this, therefore we have to do it.

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Speaker 1: All very much embedded in LDS culture. But basically, this

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Speaker 1: guy becomes convinced because of these like delusions that he

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Speaker 1: has that he is a prophet.

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Speaker 6: Shocker, I know, I'm speechless.

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Speaker 1: Man in Utah claiming to be a prophet is well,

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Speaker 1: we've never heard.

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Speaker 2: Of before claiming to be a prophet. A man claiming

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Speaker 2: to hear the voice of God. Just kidd it, let

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Speaker 2: me do it too, okay God.

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Speaker 1: But it seems like he actually was someone who was

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Speaker 1: maybe a bit who was delusional, like as opposed.

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Speaker 7: To actually hearing the voice.

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Speaker 1: He was a prophet. He was literally a prophet, and

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Speaker 1: so I believe in him. Yeah, like as opposed to

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Speaker 1: my guy, who I think knows that he's not he's

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Speaker 1: like just saying whatever he can say.

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Speaker 2: To Yeah, you guys just Slayer's control, having fun with

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Speaker 2: it now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But this guy seems like he was genuinely like

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Speaker 1: having hallucinations.

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Speaker 6: He and his wife, they start a family.

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Speaker 1: They start living in this hotel, living this really lavish lifestyle,

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Speaker 1: which I'm unclear in some of the details, but I

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Speaker 1: think they were like kind of swindling people out of

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Speaker 1: their money a little bit classic and like ordering these

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Speaker 1: like fancy French meals. But meanwhile their children are living

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Speaker 1: with them at the hotel and not going to school.

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Speaker 1: There were five kids, I think, and they were just

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Speaker 1: not going to school and somehow that got overlooked and

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Speaker 1: eventually the dad, Immanuel, one of the people at the hotel,

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Speaker 1: described it as all the boys as like duck links

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Speaker 1: because they would just sort of quietly follow their parents,

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Speaker 1: all orderly and polite. So get this shit. So Emmanuel

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Speaker 1: David then kills himself by pumping what do you call

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Speaker 1: it into the car.

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Speaker 7: That he was in exhausts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, kills himself by himself, and then the next morning

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Speaker 1: the mom and all of the kids jump off the

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Speaker 1: fucking building to join him, and it seems like a

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Speaker 1: couple of the kids jumped and then a few of

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Speaker 1: them were pushed. One of the daughters survived, but it's horrible,

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Speaker 1: like it says, she was fourteen. She was brought to

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Speaker 1: the hospital with both legs broken and multiple injuries to

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Speaker 1: the pelvis, arms, jaw, teeth, tong shoulders, and spleen. About

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Speaker 1: as bad as you can get and not be dead.

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Speaker 1: Five blood transfusions, brain damage. Anyway, that girl survived from

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Speaker 1: what I read like, still believed in the group years later,

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Speaker 1: even though.

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Speaker 6: Her entire fucking family died.

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Speaker 1: How sad is that?

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Speaker 6: Isn't that insane?

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Speaker 7: Oh?

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Speaker 9: God?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's yeah, just fucking crazy. It's crazy

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Speaker 1: how many people. I mean, he also was talking about

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Speaker 1: the Second Coming, just like my guy. It's just crazy

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Speaker 1: how many of these guys there are. And I've still

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Speaker 1: never heard of a woman doing this in Mormon culture,

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Speaker 1: although I'm sure it's out there, but probably because historically

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Speaker 1: women can't hold the priesthood, so no one would really

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Speaker 1: believe it if a woman came out and was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm the new prophet, because that would mean God has

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Speaker 1: really become a feminist.

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Speaker 7: But if there was a new tablet that she also lost.

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Speaker 6: A new part of, like the sealed portion, and it

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Speaker 6: says like right.

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Speaker 2: She's like, but I can't find it.

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Speaker 1: It's bound to happen at some point. But it's just

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Speaker 1: like the more I learn, I'm like, there there's just

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Speaker 1: like endless potential within this culture for people to decide

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Speaker 1: that their profit.

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Speaker 6: And then have people following them.

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Speaker 1: And I think there were other people who believe in

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Speaker 1: them as well, but they were all sort of family people,

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Speaker 1: family people, family members.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, family people. Yep.

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Speaker 1: I introduced my boyfriend to my family people. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if she's still alive, but what a crazy story.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I don't know maybe maybe we can

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Speaker 1: find someone to do them at some point. But that

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Speaker 1: was my cultiest thing. I just was thought that that

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Speaker 1: was incredibly tragic and fascinating.

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Speaker 7: Well, it's ruined my day, so thank you.

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Speaker 6: That's what I'm here for. That's my job.

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Speaker 7: All right, Well shall we talk to Julian. Let's do it.

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Speaker 4: It's so hard to get out of Like I said,

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Speaker 4: like once that dream drains out of you and you

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Speaker 4: forget that there are so many options. Yeah, at least

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Speaker 4: for me, there always were options.

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Speaker 3: I don't have that excuse.

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Speaker 4: When I was in New York and I didn't go

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Speaker 4: back and they were super duper pissed.

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Speaker 3: You do not want him pissed at you.

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Speaker 10: You know, I was followed in New York sometimes, I

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Speaker 10: just you can feel it, and it totally makes sense

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Speaker 10: that I was being surveilled, not all the time, but

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Speaker 10: definitely some times, you know, And they still called me

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Speaker 10: on a cell phone see where I was.

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Speaker 8: And you know, and life is so hard and complicated

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Speaker 8: and messy, and theater is nothing but rejection.

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Speaker 11: And I had an abortion, got a real.

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Speaker 4: Boyfriend, very nice guy, I got pregnant, and abortion and

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Speaker 4: you know, it affects people really differently for me. There

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Speaker 4: was like a very intense grieving period and you know,

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Speaker 4: and it was then that I decided to go back.

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Speaker 4: Like I was walking through a department store and I

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Speaker 4: went over more Eggo East, you know, and I went

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Speaker 4: and I smelled his cologne and.

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Speaker 11: I was just like, I just knew the rules of

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Speaker 11: that world, right.

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Speaker 3: It was easy.

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Speaker 4: I didn't have to think about groceries. I didn't have

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Speaker 4: to think about my laundry. I didn't, you know. All

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Speaker 4: I had to think about.

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Speaker 11: I was keeping one man happy, you know, and keeping

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Speaker 11: on my toes.

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Speaker 4: And I called the Madam and I asked to go back,

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Speaker 4: and she was just like, they're so mad at you, Like,

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Speaker 4: it's not going to be the same even if I

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Speaker 4: can talk them into it.

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Speaker 3: And I was just try and they invited me.

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Speaker 4: Back, and it was like, you know, there was nothing

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Speaker 4: like terrible that happened between us. I mean, I was

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Speaker 4: still sleeping with the Prince when I went back, but

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Speaker 4: I just wasn't like one of his special girls, right,

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Speaker 4: So in some ways it was less hard because I

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Speaker 4: wasn't a target of everyone.

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Speaker 3: I think in my book, I say, you know, so

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Speaker 3: if you do.

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Speaker 9: I had friends, I had preferred having power, right, but

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Speaker 9: I did, I staid, you know, and you know, I

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Speaker 9: was just still on my grinds, kept doing it, and

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Speaker 9: then you know, I went home, and I went home

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Speaker 9: for good.

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Speaker 1: I find it really interesting this idea. I think you

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Speaker 1: articulated it really well. That, like, real life is hard

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Speaker 1: and it's full of ambiguity and uncertainty, and if nothing

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Speaker 1: el situation like this provides structure. You know what you

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Speaker 1: have to do and you don't have to worry about

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Speaker 1: the horrible, terrifying uncertainty of life. Like that is a

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Speaker 1: really compelling explanation. And yeah, thanks for articulating that. So

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Speaker 1: how long were you back when you went back?

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Speaker 11: I think that that was another six months.

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Speaker 4: But I knew I was going in for the long haul.

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Speaker 4: I went back with a different attitude, you know. I

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Speaker 4: was just like, go get your money, girl.

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Speaker 3: I had spent so much of that money.

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Speaker 4: Here's another problem with sex workers is that you make

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Speaker 4: this money, then you because your worth becomes attached to

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Speaker 4: the money, your own self worth to how much you're

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Speaker 4: being paid or what kind of gifts you're getting, right,

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Speaker 4: and the manicures and the maintenance.

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Speaker 7: Oh god, yeah, it's a.

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Speaker 3: Loan to be like a trophy.

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Speaker 11: You're a girl, right, you gotta keep your shit together,

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Speaker 11: you know. And you know, and I was like dumn

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Speaker 11: my like in seat of.

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Speaker 4: Louis Biton luggage because everyone had that there, Like everyone

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Speaker 4: has a set of Louistown luggage.

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Speaker 11: I have my purse.

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Speaker 12: But you know it like the girls would go home

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Speaker 12: to LA and buy a Mercedes like all that. You

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Speaker 12: so you start buying yourself things. And also then I

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Speaker 12: think that that's normal. Get a Chanel dress.

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Speaker 2: You've just bought twenty of them yesterday, So like, what's why.

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Speaker 3: What am I going to do now? Go to H

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Speaker 3: and M? And also like what did I know for money?

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Speaker 3: Barely figuring it out now?

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Speaker 8: Right?

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Speaker 3: You know, it's not like I had no idea.

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Speaker 4: Of the worth one hundred thousand dollars, two hundred thousand dollars,

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Speaker 4: three hundred thousand dollars, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, and overall I think, you know, overall it is

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Speaker 3: about half a million.

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Speaker 7: Wow, I know, but I need to.

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Speaker 3: Know that we're worth of it.

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Speaker 4: I did put myself through college with it, but I

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Speaker 4: also put myself through a heroin addiction with it, so

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Speaker 4: you know, nice, because I muffle everything back, I had

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Speaker 4: way over.

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Speaker 6: I do want to hear about that, Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 4: And so we would wear like tights, and because you can,

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Speaker 4: we would change our money in Singapore and then but

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Speaker 4: the largest denomination we have our one hundred dollars bills.

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Speaker 4: So I have twenty thousand dollars four thousand, like you know,

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Speaker 4: I have one hundred thousand dollars or more, and we

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Speaker 4: would stuffer our tights with it and then wear like

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Speaker 4: big sweatpants.

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Speaker 11: Oh shitn we'd wear.

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Speaker 4: Our fucking jewelry under like a big sweatshirt.

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Speaker 7: And these are like real jewel like, my.

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Speaker 4: God, like I'm wearing a Cardier necklace, a Tiffany necklace,

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Speaker 4: a Cardier.

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Speaker 3: Watch, a Rolex.

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Speaker 11: Fucking serious jewelry. Oh I have a bi I sold

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Speaker 11: that one.

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Speaker 3: I'm so now, I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 11: I did this Bulgari.

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Speaker 4: Snake old and sneak got around and like here and

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Speaker 4: it had these ruby eyes.

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Speaker 6: I have like a five dollars version of that.

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Speaker 11: It's not you know, I had this a couple of

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Speaker 11: years ago.

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Speaker 13: I had this, you know, really, so like I feel

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Speaker 13: like I needed to do some cleansing around this. And

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Speaker 13: I still had these Chanel bags, which are now like

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Speaker 13: a vintage amazing And I had a very stylish babysitter

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Speaker 13: and just one day I lost my shit and just

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Speaker 13: gave her the Chanel bags. I was like, get these

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Speaker 13: out of my home.

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Speaker 3: Great, but they have terrible mojo.

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Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, and I'm like, why are you just taking.

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Speaker 3: The real reel? I gotta just let that go. I'm

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Speaker 3: not that into stuff.

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Speaker 11: I mean, I like my nice stuff, but I just

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Speaker 11: I don't like a lot of it. It's just not

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Speaker 11: like top of my priorities. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So you know, I did sell most of the jewelry

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Speaker 4: and gave away those expensive persons. The rest of the

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Speaker 4: clothes were destroyed, although I think they see interestingly enough, they.

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Speaker 11: Saved the traditional Malay costumes.

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Speaker 2: Oh like they were angry with you and they destroyed

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Speaker 2: the outfits or.

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Speaker 3: No, there was a flood. Oh wow, they were able

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Speaker 3: to rescue. I know, I know.

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Speaker 11: Can you imagine like there was flood and like I had.

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Speaker 2: Like sequin this is breaking my heart now suit that

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Speaker 2: was nuts.

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Speaker 7: Gone.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, that's good, get get it out fine. Only stuff

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Speaker 1: that sparks joy.

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Speaker 3: You know, I write books.

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Speaker 4: That's the gift I get, yeah, you know, is that

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Speaker 4: I can create meaning out of these experiences, and I

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Speaker 4: think totally.

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Speaker 11: I mean, even though my books drive me crazy too,

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Speaker 11: because writing is crazy making, but especially with some girls.

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Speaker 3: I was eighteen years later I wrote that book.

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Speaker 4: So going back and like and meeting that girl again,

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Speaker 4: and because she's a character in my book now.

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Speaker 3: I find some passion for her.

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Speaker 4: No, because I have to have compassion for all my

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Speaker 4: characters at the very least. It's the very least I

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Speaker 4: can bring, right, I was like, I'm gonna have to

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Speaker 4: have compassion for myself. I'm gonna have to have compassion

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Speaker 4: for my father. You know.

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Speaker 3: It really did give me a lot of compassion for

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Speaker 3: my father, even though you know, it didn't work out

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Speaker 3: how I would have liked it too. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 3: eventually it did.

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Speaker 4: I think eventually it made a relationship stronger, you know,

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Speaker 4: and I had more boundaries.

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Speaker 3: When I went back.

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Speaker 4: And then it's all sort of out on the table.

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Speaker 4: There isn't this giant secret which is like a whole

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Speaker 4: fake facade totally. If you're in Universal City and walking,

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Speaker 4: you know, I'm like this down the streets of New York,

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Speaker 4: you know, and then you open a door and there's

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Speaker 4: no house behind it.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious about two things. One, I was watching one

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Speaker 1: of your storytelling clips, which are awesome, and you told

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Speaker 1: us story about it was actually the rooftop story, and

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Speaker 1: how that was one of the turning points for you.

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Speaker 1: Was that the first time you were there or the

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Speaker 1: second time that you were there.

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Speaker 7: I think it was the first.

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Speaker 4: Yes, And that was the thing that really sort of

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Speaker 4: pushed me over the edge.

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Speaker 3: That was the turning point. I don't even know if

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Speaker 3: I would say like I was.

365
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Speaker 4: Disgusted or but like I just couldn't even look at myself.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know that I.

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Speaker 4: Could translate that into words at the time, but like

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Speaker 4: the whole next day, I couldn't look at myself, like.

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Speaker 3: Cover the mirror.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So what happened was I was on a trip

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Speaker 4: with the Prince to Malaysia, and when you're not with him,

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Speaker 4: you're locked in your room.

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Speaker 1: Locked in your room when you're not with him, Yes.

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Speaker 3: The room's guarded.

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Speaker 4: So it was me and Fiona and we were next

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Speaker 4: door each other and we were underguard.

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Speaker 3: Now, Fiona had all the.

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Speaker 11: Guards in her pocket.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how she did, but you know, once

380
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Speaker 4: in a while, laugh, I feel like we sneaked out

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Speaker 4: to get a manicure once and or she was, she

382
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Speaker 4: would come in my room and that was technically not allowed.

383
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Speaker 3: And because we could.

384
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Speaker 4: Order anything wanted, we would order like buckets of caviar

385
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Speaker 4: and just like eat it with a spoon, like just

386
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Speaker 4: because we could. But anyway, sometimes you'd be locked in

387
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Speaker 4: your room for days, you know. Sometimes he you know,

388
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Speaker 4: not me. So after being lockt in my room for

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Speaker 4: a couple of days, the guards came to get me.

390
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Speaker 4: So when got ready, I can do a ten minute

391
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Speaker 4: black tie nice made it.

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Speaker 11: Ready for a black tie events. He'll do it, And

393
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Speaker 11: they took me to an elevator and.

394
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Speaker 4: The Prince was staying in the penthouse. But they didn't

395
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Speaker 4: press the button for the penthouse. They pressed the button

396
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Speaker 4: for the roof, and I really thought that the headlines splashed.

397
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Speaker 3: Through my mind. I was like, they're gonna throw me off,

398
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Speaker 3: like I know too much.

399
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Speaker 11: I was at dinner with King Fod, you know, like

400
00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:57,840
Speaker 11: I know too much.

401
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,439
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna be another teenager who I don't know,

402
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,680
Speaker 4: got strung out or whatever the hell they would say,

403
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 4: or you know, just jumped and again there.

404
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:09,679
Speaker 3: Would be no accountabilities.

405
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,919
Speaker 4: So we like but I I feel like it was

406
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,400
Speaker 4: being like when you're in one of those gangster movies

407
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 4: and you know you're gonna get whacked and they're like

408
00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:20,359
Speaker 4: get in the car.

409
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Speaker 7: And you just have to do it.

410
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:23,399
Speaker 11: Yeah, they get in the car.

411
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Speaker 5: Yeah.

412
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Speaker 4: So I was just like okay, Like I was like,

413
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Speaker 4: I'm like Fredo in the boat right now. But I

414
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:33,560
Speaker 4: got to the roof and it was a helicopter and

415
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:39,120
Speaker 4: the helicopter hopped over to the next hotel. Necessary traffic,

416
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:43,120
Speaker 4: there is bananas, and they're not gonna walk me through

417
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Speaker 4: the streets. So they took me the next hotel over

418
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Speaker 4: and I went down into this suite that was like

419
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Speaker 4: I had no idea what's going on, but I was

420
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Speaker 4: used to that by then. There was like the room

421
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,800
Speaker 4: was like the size of a football field, and I

422
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 4: was just looking around towards taking everything in.

423
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Speaker 3: And I and there's a sultan. He's sitting in the

424
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Speaker 3: room already.

425
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Speaker 1: Money guy, the guy on the money, guy from the wall,

426
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:07,720
Speaker 1: from the money.

427
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,199
Speaker 4: He is the supreme leader designated by God.

428
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 3: You know, it's not a democracy. It is not remotely

429
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Speaker 3: a democracy.

430
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Speaker 5: You know.

431
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Speaker 3: He is a dictator.

432
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have health care, but it's still a dictatorship.

433
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:23,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, like.

434
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,879
Speaker 4: You know, everyone has healthcare, everyone has education. It's a

435
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,879
Speaker 4: small country to have so much money. There's no freedom

436
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,280
Speaker 4: of the press, and now there's sharia law that they just.

437
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 3: Put in place.

438
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,080
Speaker 4: Actually wrote a big piece about it for the Daily

439
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 4: Beast that got it, got syndicated, got a lot of play,

440
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,960
Speaker 4: and I wrote about this exactly, this experience. So I

441
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,280
Speaker 4: got there and he had tea set in front of him,

442
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 4: and I poured tea and we chatted. We actually chatted

443
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Speaker 4: like he's like, how do you like my country?

444
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Speaker 3: And you know.

445
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Speaker 5: We chatted and we drink and you know, after a

446
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,399
Speaker 5: little while, he asked me to take my clothes off

447
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:07,359
Speaker 5: and do a little dance, which, by the way, I

448
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 5: really suggest never doing that without music awkward.

449
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 7: I love how they don't give a shit. They're just like,

450
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 7: just dance. I don't care if it's weird.

451
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,199
Speaker 4: I think it's more like more than even watching you

452
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,680
Speaker 4: dance no music. It's more about being able to do that. Now,

453
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 4: got up and dance, Go stand.

454
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,879
Speaker 6: On your head in the corner, right right right.

455
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,479
Speaker 4: And then he requested or all sex, which I gave him,

456
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:37,880
Speaker 4: and then I'm.

457
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 3: You know, I was very politely dismissed.

458
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 4: He's very nice, man like genial in a way that

459
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 4: that Prince Jeffrey wasn't.

460
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,440
Speaker 3: Jeffery was a little darker.

461
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 4: The Sultan just seemed like a little you know, like

462
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 4: he was just having a little fun. Jeffer was like,

463
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 4: you know, you're pretty much just like metaphorically, you know,

464
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 4: chained up in his basement.

465
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 1: And was this the only other person you'd had physical

466
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 1: encounters with besides Jeffrey.

467
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 11: Yes, there, Yes, absolutely so.

468
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 3: I was sort of a gift. I mean I figured.

469
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 4: Out later, you know, that it was meant to be flattering.

470
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,399
Speaker 4: I mean it was more for like giving tribute to

471
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,399
Speaker 4: his brother. But he did think it was flattering, you know,

472
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 4: because he was later he was like, you know, like

473
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 4: this excited little boys. I mean, he really wants to

474
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 4: impress his brother, even though he's the black sheep, you know,

475
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,160
Speaker 4: he's the playboy the family.

476
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 3: He's like the bad brother, and everybody really wants to

477
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 3: impress his brother.

478
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 4: And he was just like Martin, is what you call it,

479
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 4: like really liked you, really.

480
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,159
Speaker 3: Enjoyed his time with you. He doesn't like American girls

481
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 3: at all, you.

482
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 4: Know, And that was when I was really like in

483
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,400
Speaker 4: love with him in my mind. But I'd never been

484
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,959
Speaker 4: in love before that really, so I didn't have anything

485
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 4: to compare it to.

486
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 3: No, I didn't fall in love in.

487
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 4: Two years later, and you know, and I did it

488
00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 4: very poorly because I had no trust in me at all.

489
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 11: Like that, I had this feeling.

490
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 4: That makes me vulnerable if I had just been, like

491
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 4: if I had been a sociopath myself, if I had

492
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 4: been Although you know, sometimes I.

493
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 14: Think it's where it shows up and how you know,

494
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 14: Like I mean, I'll turn on my rage and hate

495
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 14: I got myself.

496
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 1: We're self interested. We're designed to make ourselves survive.

497
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 7: It makes sense.

498
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 3: It's a very important thing.

499
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 4: You know, you identify with your captor because you know

500
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 4: and you make them right because they're in control of you.

501
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 4: It is a really profound survival instinct to go to

502
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 4: the winning side.

503
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 6: When you left the second time, was it hard? Did

504
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 6: they let you?

505
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 10: What?

506
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 7: Was it like?

507
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 3: It was not hard, it was over. I think people really.

508
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 4: Want there to be some crazy, inciting incident. I mean

509
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 4: I did pull some shit at the end that he

510
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,239
Speaker 4: had me like lie out by the pool and then

511
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 4: they would have this big window that they would look at.

512
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 15: So you know, he had like a view and he

513
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 15: was working and stuff, you know, and I just took

514
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 15: all my clothes off and went swimming, you know, like.

515
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 4: I just started to kind of act out and pull

516
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 4: some shit. You know. I crashed my part into the

517
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 4: garage wall because it's so drunk coming home from the party,

518
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,959
Speaker 4: I pressed the gas instead of the break and I

519
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 4: like knocked my nose.

520
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: So yeah, you're just getting like way too restless and

521
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: like I gotta go.

522
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 7: They were like, she's got to go home, and you.

523
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 6: Were like, yep, he has a mutual agreement.

524
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 10: You know.

525
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 4: He would still like take me for rides in his car,

526
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 4: and we would still have sex once in a while.

527
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 11: I felt like.

528
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 4: Friends would benefit sex, you know what I mean. Like

529
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 4: I wasn't in love with him anymore. I mean, because

530
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 4: that's I think his driving force, you know. I mean,

531
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 4: I'm making a leap and taking some license, but approval

532
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 4: love it was genuinely there.

533
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 3: That's it.

534
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 4: He can feel it if it's genuinely there, and it

535
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 4: genuinely wasn't.

536
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 3: We were kind of fine.

537
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 4: He wasn't fucking with me, which is just like the

538
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 4: relationship had kind of come to its clothes and it

539
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 4: really was ready to go home and try to get

540
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 4: to work again.

541
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 3: They didn't give me a hard time. I mean, it

542
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 3: was my call. I could have seen forever.

543
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 4: I was sort of like there were a couple women

544
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 4: there like that, like if you have like gotten into

545
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 4: his good graces enough, they don't kick you out.

546
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 2: Really, how much longer did it go on for till

547
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 2: he was kicked out of the country for extorting nine

548
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 2: billion dollars or you know.

549
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 11: It might have been even five years after I got out.

550
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 4: But it was interesting because I was at these dinner

551
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 4: parties with him where he was talking to you know,

552
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 4: King Hussein and King Fought and like all these things

553
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 4: like nuts people, and most of the time they were

554
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 4: speaking in Malay and I was sitting there the whole time.

555
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 13: But like he would make a go to the polo

556
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 13: matches and there'd be like four of us, like four

557
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 13: white girls.

558
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 3: There are no white girls. You can't just go to

559
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 3: Brenat so be.

560
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 4: Like four white girls dressed to the nines, like stuck

561
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 4: in a box over here, and then like the wives

562
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 4: and the children and they need to be playing polo

563
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 4: with Prince Charles.

564
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: What ultimately do you think is your biggest takeaway from

565
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 1: this experience.

566
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 11: My biggest takeaway is the personal narrative.

567
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 4: It gives me a frame, It gives me meaning. It

568
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 4: allows me to take these experiences I've had, and you know,

569
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 4: Brenia is only one of them that you can take

570
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 4: it and make it a story.

571
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 3: That story is yours.

572
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 8: You know.

573
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 4: My mother's freaking out about the book and this and

574
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 4: then and I was just like, right, your own book.

575
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 4: It's always there for me. It's there for me in

576
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 4: the world all the time. You know, I'm always looking

577
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 4: at details. I'm always listening to.

578
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 3: How people talk.

579
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 11: And this started for me and burnat my second trip.

580
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 4: I started journaling really intensely, and I started journaling like

581
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 4: a writer, you know, I started like writing down what

582
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 4: people were saying and started to really look at the details.

583
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 4: So that was priceless to me when I never go

584
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 4: back and look at my journals unless I'm writing a

585
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 4: memoir or you know, need to look back and say

586
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 4: when did this happen?

587
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 8: There were details upon details upon details upon like how

588
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 8: it smelled, how.

589
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 11: It sounded like, I like, it kind of caught fire

590
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 11: in me.

591
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 3: I was so.

592
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 4: Lonely in spite of the fact that I had friends,

593
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 4: but I was truly lonely, and then that carried me.

594
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 4: It still does today. Everything that happens, I always just think,

595
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 4: you know, go back to your Nora Ephron, it's all.

596
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 6: Copy speaking of stories.

597
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: Your new book and also a series that you did

598
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: is about your conversations and your relationship that you built

599
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 1: with a murderer. Can you tell us about this?

600
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 3: Samuel Little, who died a.

601
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 4: Year ago, is recognized as the most prolific serial killer

602
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 4: in American history. He confessed to killing ninety three women

603
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 4: across the country over three and a half decades. He

604
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 4: evaded justice for he was a sexual strangler.

605
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 3: He picked his victims.

606
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 4: Specifically for their marginalized status and.

607
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 3: Counted on the fact that the cops wouldn't care that

608
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 3: probably no one would.

609
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 11: Care that these women went missing.

610
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 3: And then beyond that he was acquitted. There was a

611
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 3: failure to.

612
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 4: Indict by grand jury, and these were for murders, so

613
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 4: they had him for murder and he got off again and.

614
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 3: Again and again.

615
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 4: He did eighteen months in San Diego for two rapes, kidnapping, assault.

616
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 3: And attempted murder. There were two victims.

617
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 4: They for dead that lived whoa he got out and

618
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 4: drove to la and killed two people that night. Holy shit,

619
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 4: Luri Carriage, she's the last surviving living victim actually.

620
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 11: That we know of. She's furious.

621
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 4: In the documentary, Laurie Carriage asked to confront the prosecutor

622
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,479
Speaker 4: from the case who prosecuted Sam so poorly. You know,

623
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 4: he was just sitting there basically across the table from her.

624
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 3: All these years later, that.

625
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 11: Was in nineteen eighty eight, telling her it was her fault,

626
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 11: and she went off on him.

627
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 4: It was really powerful, But I really thought she was

628
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 4: going to crawl over that table and take that man's

629
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 4: eyes out, you know, like the injustice and how many

630
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 4: women died after and.

631
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 3: The brutality of her attack.

632
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 11: And how dismissed she was because she was a prostitute.

633
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 4: Like I said, the lack of physical evidence that Sam leaves,

634
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 4: he doesn't leave rape kits.

635
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 11: So I learned about him. He was in prison, he'd

636
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 11: been there for a few years.

637
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 4: He was caught through uh DNA screening that the LAPD

638
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 4: Cold Case Unit was doing with Grant from the Department

639
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 4: of Justice, where they screened old evidence. But they would

640
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 4: get you know, when the DNA came back, it would

641
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 4: you know, hit with something in the system or not.

642
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 3: And they got three.

643
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 4: So the third hit was the one where they were like,

644
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 4: we've got a serial killer. And Beth Silverman, the prosecutor,

645
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 4: said all right, like if you can get them all

646
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 4: in dit took him a long time to get strong

647
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 4: enough evidence, hard to try a cold case. They chased

648
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 4: him across the country. He's a transient. They were two

649
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 4: days behind him all the time. They finally cut up

650
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,959
Speaker 4: with him in Kentucky and the Marshalls extradited him to Texas.

651
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 11: First and then to la She always thought that there.

652
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 4: Were many more murders across the country, and she tried

653
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 4: to mobilize interest in departments, you know, saying, hey, maybe

654
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 4: you want to look at your cold cases. You know,

655
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 4: I believe this man killed a lot more people, and

656
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 4: here's his m O.

657
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 11: And she just wasn't able to get a fire going.

658
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 4: And I thought, you know, as the media, as somebody

659
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 4: with a voice, a public voice, that I could put

660
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 4: heat on it, like Michelle McNamara, you know, did not

661
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 4: catch that Golden State killer.

662
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 11: But she put heat on that for so long that

663
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 11: law enforcement can no longer ignore it, right, you know.

664
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 3: And so I was like that was kind of my goal.

665
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 11: I was just like, I'm going to put heat on this.

666
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 4: And so I started corresponding with him as I waited

667
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 4: for my visitors pass, and I really thought, you know,

668
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 4: due to my unusual skill set. I was just like,

669
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 4: if anyone can get this man talking, it's going to

670
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 4: be me, and I'm going to do it.

671
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 3: Like it was just this wild endeavor.

672
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 11: And I was.

673
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 4: Talking to New York Magazine and they said, you know, okay,

674
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 4: like maybe like we don't want to do another gruesome

675
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 4: serial killer thing, you know, and just exploit it.

676
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 11: If you come up with an angle, we'll do it.

677
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 11: And I was like, all right, you want an angle,

678
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 11: I'll give you an angle. And I went in there

679
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 11: and I talked to him.

680
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 16: You know, I could never have predicted what the next

681
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 16: three years of my life we're gonna look like after that, but.

682
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 11: He lied, lied, lied, lied, lied, lied lied. The first

683
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 11: day was there with him for three hours.

684
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 3: And this is men's maximum security prisons.

685
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 4: It's really not a pleasant experience, very interesting.

686
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 3: It was great to be able to write about it,

687
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 3: you know, and write about things like, you know, the.

688
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 4: Kindness I saw that women treated each other with royal kindness,

689
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 4: you know, in the waiting rooms and stuff.

690
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 11: For hours with people you would never be in a

691
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 11: room with that.

692
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 3: There was a lot of kindness.

693
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 13: Someone needs a tampon, or someone's babies crying, or you know.

694
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 3: No one wants to be there.

695
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 11: I felt like a phony, of course, because I did

696
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 11: want to be there.

697
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 4: These people are visiting their loved ones. I'm here to

698
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 4: see a monster because I want to. I have always

699
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 4: been interested. I mean, there's a lot of criticism about, you.

700
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 13: Know, prurians and exploitation and true crime.

701
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 3: To me, crime is just a story with really high stakes.

702
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 11: And it fascinates me. And serial killers are fascinating.

703
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 3: We don't understand them, you know.

704
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 4: And it makes us wonder about human nature. It makes

705
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 4: us wonder, like, what is this stuff we're made of?

706
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 4: He's not a different species, you know. I wanted to

707
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 4: see it.

708
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 3: I wanted to do it.

709
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 4: I thought I'd write one article and it would be done,

710
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 4: and then I found myself in the middle of so

711
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 4: the second day starts confessing to me, it was like

712
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 4: the cliche, like ice water poured over my head when

713
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 4: he started in and I was like frozen in place.

714
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 3: It was sort of like, oh, my god, I just

715
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 3: got what I asked for.

716
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 4: I mean, that's a whole other story, the mind control

717
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 4: and the you know, and having this really deeply intertwined relationship,

718
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 4: long term relationship with a psychopath. And I also found

719
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 4: myself in the middle of an FBI investigation because as

720
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 4: he started talking to me, he was talking to a

721
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 4: Texas ranger, James Holland. Texas Ranger James Holland also had

722
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 4: this big plan to get him to confess.

723
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 11: He's sort of an expert serial killer whisperer.

724
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 4: He's sort of one of the more recognized detectives in

725
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 4: the country in that field. He's an intense interviewer. In

726
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 4: this case, you know, it wasn't as bad because Sam

727
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 4: was so willing and Jimmy was his best friend. Jimmy

728
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 4: and Me and the Devil made three. And I had

729
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 4: to keep my mouth shut. So I'm sitting on this story,

730
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 4: which is I was like, okay, well, you know, it's

731
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 4: a long form piece. I think it was like the

732
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 4: length of Catcher and the Rye.

733
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 15: When I turned it in, I think it really was

734
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 15: like eighty thousand.

735
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 6: Wow.

736
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 4: I sat on that damn story and kept my mouth shut,

737
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 4: and like they gave me no warning at all that

738
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 4: it was going to break. I told the FBI, told

739
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,919
Speaker 4: the federal government to go fuck themselves, and.

740
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 11: I have to hear about it all the day time.

741
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 4: You know. It's just like, can you sworn officers of

742
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 4: the law with like multiple graduate degrees from Ivy League

743
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 4: universities and stuff.

744
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 7: Grow the fuck up.

745
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 11: But you know what, I was just so pissed.

746
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 4: I mean, much like the story of some girls, Like

747
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 4: it really took me to the edge of my everything,

748
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 4: and you know, the edge of my sanity, the edge

749
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,479
Speaker 4: of my capability to handle it, and sort of that's

750
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 4: the story that makes a good book, like the one

751
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 4: where you're not sure she's gonna make it to the end.

752
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 11: I mean, yeah, make it because she wrote it, but.

753
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,760
Speaker 3: You to spend that disbelief. It was wild.

754
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 16: And I went down to Texas, you know, and I

755
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 16: was like talking to him in Texas and soothing him,

756
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 16: and you know, I just kept him really really happy.

757
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 7: It's like the Silence of the Lambs.

758
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 6: Yeah, your Clarice started.

759
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 4: And by design too, because you know that is my

760
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 4: favorite movie and just accidentally resemble the Claricus Walk to

761
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 4: the Cell.

762
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 3: Like that was sort of what was in my mind.

763
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 11: I was I had a little panic attack online.

764
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 5: So you wait for two hours in your car or

765
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 5: three hours in your car before they even let you in.

766
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 3: If you want to get in, you got to get

767
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 3: there at like six in the morning and get in line.

768
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 3: So and then they opened the gate at nine thirty.

769
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 4: The things that resemble that are absolutely genuine, Like I

770
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 4: got what I wanted. It really felt like that sometimes.

771
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 3: You know, if I was his confident, I was his everything.

772
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 4: I kept him stable and I kept him talking. I

773
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 4: think of you my years of sex work and addiction

774
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 4: and just being an idiot. You know things I did, guys,

775
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 4: I went home with stole my shit in New York.

776
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 3: You know that I lived through all that. I talked

777
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 3: my way out of it. Mostly I would talk my

778
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 3: way out of stuff.

779
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 11: So I was like, that's what I'm gonna do.

780
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: I can't wait to read it. It's called Behold the Monster,

781
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 1: Confronting a Killer.

782
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 4: You know, I try, with my best intentions, in all

783
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 4: of my heart to give voice to these women whose voices.

784
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 3: Were taken away from them.

785
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 4: And maybe I don't do it perfectly all the time,

786
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 4: and I always ask the permission, you know, but you know,

787
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 4: I wanted.

788
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 11: To represent the victims, and I also.

789
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 4: Wanted to represent some of the science around it, and

790
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 4: my relationship with Sam is sort of the backbone of it,

791
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 4: and talk about all the amazing police work that was

792
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 4: done by people on the case.

793
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: So well, I can't wait. What a fascinating life you

794
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: have led. You're like the female version of that most

795
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 1: Interesting Man in the World character in the commercials. Yeah,

796
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: he's like, I don't know if I'm drink beer, but

797
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: what I do it's seconds and they're like the most

798
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: interesting men in the world.

799
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, but that's you.

800
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 7: Well, I think that reference might be like twelve years old.

801
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 7: I'm right here with you. But I will just say

802
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,280
Speaker 7: I worked on one of those commercials.

803
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 2: Ones is like an extra and he left in like

804
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 2: a really shitty car, and I was like, that sucks.

805
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: No, because when you make do you know commercials like that,

806
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: you're making banks.

807
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,240
Speaker 6: So that means he's humble.

808
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: He's humble.

809
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I got a lot of alimony payments.

810
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 7: You would if you were the most interesting man, wouldn't you?

811
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 3: True?

812
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 7: True?

813
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Jillian. It was so great to

814
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 1: talk to you and great to meet you.

815
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 11: Yeah, it's great to meet you, guys. I'd love to

816
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 11: just stay friend.

817
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, let's do it.

818
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 4: I mean, how often do you meet people who share

819
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 4: your niche Usually I do podcasts that.

820
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 3: Are a little more you know, general or but I

821
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 3: was just like.

822
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, this was my Yeah, okay, thank you, Julien. Sorry, okay,

823
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 7: bye guys, bye.

824
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 11: Thank you.

825
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, okay. So we already know what your answer

826
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: is because you talked about it last week. Yeah, but

827
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: one thing that we had discussed discussing was this idea

828
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 1: of Stockholm syndrome.

829
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 6: We're sort of like falling in love with your captor.

830
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 6: Did you have thoughts on that, Megan?

831
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 7: I did.

832
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 2: I was so stunned to kind of reread in her

833
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 2: book after we've been talking about this for so long.

834
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 2: Just she was talking about being taken from the compound

835
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 2: where she was staying, brought to a hotel. She didn't

836
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 2: know where she was, she didn't know if she was safe.

837
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 2: She gets put in a room, she talks about it

838
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 2: on the podcast. It's freezing, she can't pee, there's nowhere

839
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 2: to go, and she's left there for hours and hours

840
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 2: and hours. And she said by the time he finally

841
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: came for her, which was purposely done on his part.

842
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 2: She is so grateful to the person who opens that

843
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 2: door that she felt her whole energy shift towards him.

844
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 2: And I'd never really seen it put that simply before

845
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 2: and really processed how fast it can happen, because that's

846
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 2: half a day or a day. I can't remember the

847
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 2: exact length of time, but you know, imagine growing up

848
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 2: with these kind of things are like getting introduced to

849
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,839
Speaker 2: it when you're younger, or being around it for years

850
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 2: and years. You know, it's just crazy how deep this

851
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 2: stuff can go, right.

852
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: I think that's super interesting and always makes me think

853
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 1: of the thing I've referenced a million times, which is Homeland.

854
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 7: I love that one.

855
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, but also he was dreamy.

856
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 6: Well it's unrelated, but yes.

857
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 2: I'm just saying it makes a little more sense to

858
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 2: fall in love love him.

859
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: No, no, no, I don't mean him. I mean when

860
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 1: I mean in season one when.

861
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 11: He is.

862
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 7: Hot guy. Excuse me?

863
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 6: No, no, no, I got you.

864
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,479
Speaker 1: Yes, bro yeah, yeah, I just whatever. I'm not gonna

865
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: talk about again because people are probably said, hearing you

866
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: love Brodie. I literally haven't seen the show in like

867
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: multiple years, but it made it really clear for me,

868
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: that idea of like if you okay, so most people

869
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: join Nicole when I mean they're not not necessarily suffering,

870
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: but like something in them is like needing an ants, right, Like,

871
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: so there's some kind of suffering that's happening, or like

872
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: mild suffering, and this person or group comes along and

873
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: they're like, I can fix this, I can relieve this.

874
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 7: Right.

875
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: It's a relief of pain, is what it feels like

876
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: when it first happens. And that is a really interesting

877
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: way to like manufacture that experience in a condensed way. Yes,

878
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,760
Speaker 1: you can do that slowly over time because somebody isn't

879
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: under your control. But if they're already under your control,

880
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: how do you speed that process along? You cause them

881
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: suffering and then relieve it. I find that concept to

882
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: be super interesting. Like our brains can only handle so

883
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: much at once, right, So like anything that offers relief

884
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: if we're suffering physically and emotionally at the same time,

885
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 1: is going to flood our bodies with like positive emotions

886
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 1: and that's going to then create a bond to that person. Yeah,

887
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: it totally makes sense to be makes me think of

888
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: Patty Hurst. Have we talked about Patty Hurst.

889
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 7: We haven't what we should. We should do an episode

890
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 7: on her.

891
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 1: I'm desperate to interview her. If anybody knows anyone who

892
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: knows Patty Hurst, I'm like, I want to interview her

893
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: so badly. I read that book that what his face

894
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 1: wrote on her, and I think he did not do her.

895
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 6: Justice at all.

896
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: He really took the position that she was acting at

897
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome as a defense. But I'm like, look at

898
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 1: what she actually experienced. Of course you're going to become

899
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: radicalized in that situation. How would you not? I mean,

900
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: if people don't know that Patty her story, definitely google it.

901
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 1: She was kidnapped and then joined the little domestic terrorist

902
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: cell that had kidnapped her. But she was also like

903
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: kept in a closet and raped a bunch.

904
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 6: So yeah, you know, yeah, I don't know. Fascinating man.

905
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 7: Stockholm syndrome not a joke.

906
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: I always wonder what sociopaths or like, let's say, malignant psychopaths.

907
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 6: Not necessarily just a general sociopath, but is like.

908
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: Listening to this, listening to our show and like taking

909
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: notes of meing like, oh, cause suffering, then relieve it?

910
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 6: That is what I should do.

911
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 1: You know no one do that. Please, yeah, you're not you're.

912
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 2: Not being smart. We we were caught you already. Just

913
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 2: stop it.

914
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 7: Stop God, I'm so tired. I'm sorry.

915
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,399
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm giving you a ship.

916
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, okay, you guys, we're so glad you listened

917
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 2: to this episode. We can't wait to see you here

918
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 2: again next week. Remember to follow your gut

919
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: Watch up for red flags, and never ever trust me

920
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: by