Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning.
Speaker 1: This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
Speaker 1: episode is going to be a longer one part of
Speaker 1: the series where I interview fascinating people about how they
Speaker 1: take their days from great to awesome and the advice
Speaker 1: they have for the rest of us. Today, I am
Speaker 1: delighted to welcome Catherine Soulman to the program. Katherine is
Speaker 1: a career coach. She works primarily with ambitious women, helping
Speaker 1: people figure out their own definitions of success. Her most
Speaker 1: recent book is called The Four Jobs Club. She's going
Speaker 1: to explain to us what that means, and it contains
Speaker 1: advice from various C suite women about how they are
Speaker 1: managing all aspects of their lives. So Catherine, welcome to
Speaker 1: the show.
Speaker 2: Oh happy to be here, Laura.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for coming on. Why don't you introduce
Speaker 1: yourself a little bit more to our listeners. Tell them
Speaker 1: about your career and your life.
Speaker 2: Well, I have worked in every way that you can
Speaker 2: think of. Started out in the corporate world and then
Speaker 2: went off and did a couple of entrepreneurial ventures. I've
Speaker 2: worked part time, I've worked freelance, I've worked consulting as
Speaker 2: a marketing and communications person. I've always considered myself a writer,
Speaker 2: but my mission since twenty twelve is to help women
Speaker 2: stay in the workforce, and doing so in one of
Speaker 2: the ways that I've done it because I really believe
Speaker 2: that today there's so many ways that you can work
Speaker 2: and still have your family and have your four jobs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have raised a family along the way
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, I have two adult daughters, both living in
Speaker 2: New York City and working there, and they seem to
Speaker 2: still love me.
Speaker 1: Well, that's good. So you figured out a lot of
Speaker 1: tips along the way from your own life as well.
Speaker 1: So maybe you can tell us what are these four
Speaker 1: jobs of which you speak. What are the four jobs
Speaker 1: that people are juggling.
Speaker 2: Well, it's the paid job, whatever that may be. And
Speaker 2: then there is the job of raising children, the job
Speaker 2: eventually of caring for aging parents, which can sometimes start
Speaker 2: earlier than you think, and then the job of taking
Speaker 2: care of your household.
Speaker 1: And so for this recent book, The Four Jobs Club,
Speaker 1: maybe you can talk a little bit about the process
Speaker 1: of that. You interviewed a lot of incredibly successful women
Speaker 1: about their lives.
Speaker 2: Correct, I did, and what I wanted to do. I
Speaker 2: around the time of the pandemic, I did a big
Speaker 2: national survey and one of the big things that I
Speaker 2: found out is that women at the mid level and
Speaker 2: rising up from there really don't feel that they are
Speaker 2: getting enough guidance from women in the C suite about
Speaker 2: how they managed to stay in and how did they
Speaker 2: do the four jobs. And you know, a lot of
Speaker 2: the corporations talk about leadership and you know, how can
Speaker 2: we get you to the top, and how can you
Speaker 2: be a better negotiator, and how can you expand your
Speaker 2: expertise and all of that. But the fact of the
Speaker 2: matter is that if you don't have the four jobs
Speaker 2: figured out, a lot of times women just don't feel
Speaker 2: that they have the bandwidth for those four or the
Speaker 2: next big promotion. So basically, I decided that I wanted
Speaker 2: to ask those C suite women how they did it.
Speaker 2: And it's not a profile of each of the fifty women.
Speaker 2: It's really a compilation of more than two hundred tips,
Speaker 2: you know, easy and easy out of you know, different
Speaker 2: ways that you can approach all of those four jobs.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, when I was reading through the book, I
Speaker 1: noted that that there were a lot of it's very digestible,
Speaker 1: So it's not that you're going to have to hear
Speaker 1: all about you know, some some successful woman's life start
Speaker 1: to finish here, but that you know, you might cover
Speaker 1: the topic of say childcare, and then you know, have
Speaker 1: ten tips from different people about what was most important
Speaker 1: as they were figuring out relationships with their caregivers. Something
Speaker 1: like that. Absolutely, Well, why don't we go through a
Speaker 1: couple of those categories that you talked about in the
Speaker 1: book and maybe you can share some of the practical
Speaker 1: strategies that people shared with you, as you know, that
Speaker 1: would be helpful for our listeners. So one that I
Speaker 1: found interesting toward the end of the book, you said
Speaker 1: volunteer with passion and precision. So what does it mean
Speaker 1: to volunteer with passion and precision and what would that
Speaker 1: look like as I'm deciding what to take on.
Speaker 2: Well, one of the things about volunteering is that your
Speaker 2: kids love to see you at school, for example, and
Speaker 2: you know, so there are certain things that maybe you
Speaker 2: want to do a little bit of you know, where
Speaker 2: you can get into the classroom, but you also can
Speaker 2: be more precise about what you're volunteering for, and it
Speaker 2: can be more on your time because it's hard for
Speaker 2: a lot of women to get to school during the day.
Speaker 2: So it can be things that are done at night
Speaker 2: or on the weekends. And it also can be things
Speaker 2: where you are using your business skills. And a lot
Speaker 2: of the women in the book talked about how they
Speaker 2: really brought their business skills to the schools or the
Speaker 2: community organizations and really found that it was more efficient
Speaker 2: for them and it was more efficient for their committees.
Speaker 2: And then you know, obviously having a passion about you
Speaker 2: know what it is that you're giving your time to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, because if you're not enjoying it, then
Speaker 1: there's not a whole lot of time point of using
Speaker 1: your time for it, Which is the same thing for work.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: You found that a lot of the women talked about
Speaker 1: make sure you really like your work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, make sure you like your work, and also
Speaker 2: make sure that your work is really fitting your life,
Speaker 2: because I think that satisfaction or joy that you get
Speaker 2: from work is really masked by a bad structure, you know,
Speaker 2: where you really don't have any breathing room.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so try to figure out how to get more
Speaker 1: breathing room in your life is good. RS all right, Well,
Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick ad break and then
Speaker 1: we'll be back with more from Catherine Sulman. Well, I
Speaker 1: am back interviewing Catherine Sulman, who is the author of
Speaker 1: the book The Four Jobs Club. She's a career coach
Speaker 1: who's worked with many ambitious and successful women over the years,
Speaker 1: so she's sharing some of the tips from the book.
Speaker 1: Another one you had is about expanding your definition of
Speaker 1: family time. Now, what does it mean to expand your
Speaker 1: definition of family time?
Speaker 2: Well, I think when you're a working woman and you're
Speaker 2: maybe you don't do a lot of fun activities during
Speaker 2: the week and everyone's just running through their work and
Speaker 2: school routines, that can be another source of feeling guilty.
Speaker 2: You know, Oh my god, you know, I've got to
Speaker 2: plan something amazing for the weekend. So you know, my
Speaker 2: kids feel like we're you know, we're really fun. And
Speaker 2: what I really found from so many of the women
Speaker 2: is that they made important family time out of things
Speaker 2: that you know, we're pretty ordinary, you know, just you know,
Speaker 2: cooking together or doing you know, the family traditions around Christmas,
Speaker 2: Sorhnica or wherever. It didn't have to be a big
Speaker 2: planned event and that was another way to let yourself
Speaker 2: off the hook and not get caught up in that
Speaker 2: perfection cycle, so.
Speaker 1: That, for instance, a weekend doesn't have to have a
Speaker 1: ton of different events to still be enjoyable and yeah.
Speaker 2: Well not only enjoyable, but just meaningful time spent with
Speaker 2: your children. You know, it doesn't have to be a big,
Speaker 2: huge event.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think awareness is a big chunk of
Speaker 1: all of this, right that you know, you can recognize
Speaker 1: that you're all there together and sort of linger in
Speaker 1: that time and make the most of it, rather than
Speaker 1: feeling that there must be some amazing other thing that
Speaker 1: you should be planning into the time.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So what does it mean to be I want
Speaker 1: to go back a little bit to that passion for
Speaker 1: the work to be true to your professional DNA, because
Speaker 1: that was another tip in your book. What does that mean?
Speaker 2: Well, I think that women have been hearing a lot
Speaker 2: of messaging from the what I call the power sisterhood,
Speaker 2: you know, Ryl Sandberg saying, you know, we all need
Speaker 2: to lean in, and you know, there's that feeling that
Speaker 2: we've got to get more women to the top. And
Speaker 2: you know, certainly I believe that more women should be
Speaker 2: in the c suite. But the operative word there is
Speaker 2: not should be, it's if they want to be. And
Speaker 2: you really have to think about what your definition of
Speaker 2: ambition and successes. They're an awful lot of successful women
Speaker 2: who make great contributions to various organizations without being in
Speaker 2: the C suite. And sometimes you just don't have the
Speaker 2: bandwidth to be in the C suite now or forever,
Speaker 2: and so I always say it's okay to lean in between,
Speaker 2: and often through lateral moves, you can still be expanding
Speaker 2: your portfolio of skills and expertise.
Speaker 1: But you really encourage women to stay in in some capacity.
Speaker 1: That's my takeaway from a lot of your writing is
Speaker 1: that even if you are dealing with intense stuff in
Speaker 1: your personal life, you know, between your kids or your
Speaker 1: parents or anything along those lines, that trying to figure
Speaker 1: out a way to at least keep a hand in
Speaker 1: is important. Maybe you could explain why that has been
Speaker 1: your philosophy.
Speaker 2: Yes, and that is my philosophy. I really do put
Speaker 2: my stake in the ground. So I'm not one of
Speaker 2: the people saying, well, you can have it all, but
Speaker 2: not at the same time, you know, not that I
Speaker 2: believe that women should always work in some way from
Speaker 2: college to retirement. But that doesn't mean that you have
Speaker 2: to work eighty hours a week and never see your
Speaker 2: kids and travel and commute long distances and all of that.
Speaker 2: I mean, today you can basically work ten hours a
Speaker 2: week and keep your hand in. And a lot of
Speaker 2: what I believe derives from my career coaching work, where
Speaker 2: I really feel that I'm often asked to be a
Speaker 2: psychiatrist as much of a as a career coach, and
Speaker 2: I am not trained as a psychiatrist, but I do
Speaker 2: get a lot of women who are coming to me
Speaker 2: with pretty sad stories about you know, husbands lost big
Speaker 2: deal jobs, got divorced, first husband, got sick and can't
Speaker 2: work anymore. You know, a lot of a lot of stories,
Speaker 2: and I call them life. You never knows, and you know,
Speaker 2: life happens to all of us. And so I just
Speaker 2: believe that if we're going to ensure our houses and
Speaker 2: we're going to ensure our cars, we need to ensure
Speaker 2: our financial security as well. And one of the ways
Speaker 2: that women can do that is to really keep your
Speaker 2: hand in all the time.
Speaker 1: Because it adds up over time, and then you know,
Speaker 1: if you are working ten hours a week, presumably you
Speaker 1: have some possibility of scaling up if you needed to,
Speaker 1: whereas if you were working none, it might be harder
Speaker 1: to get your foot in the door. Is that what
Speaker 1: you're saying?
Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely, And when women come to me, they often say,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if I can do this anymore.
Speaker 2: There's this going on and that going on, and you know,
Speaker 2: I need to take a couple of years off and
Speaker 2: get things in order. But the fact is that those
Speaker 2: couple of years that they have in their minds, that
Speaker 2: turns into an average of twelve because life happens and
Speaker 2: happens and happens, and there's always a reason not to
Speaker 2: go back, and there are you know, huge amounts of
Speaker 2: money and career progression, and you know just that you're
Speaker 2: giving up every year that you're.
Speaker 1: Out well, and also just a mindset too of like
Speaker 1: what is possible when you haven't been combining the two.
Speaker 1: I believe, Catherine, if I can remember correctly, it was
Speaker 1: at a conference that you were running where somebody raised
Speaker 1: her hand and said she was nervous about getting back
Speaker 1: in the workforce because when we're the bathrooms going to
Speaker 1: get cleaned. I think that was literally what she said.
Speaker 1: And you know, of course that strikes me as odd
Speaker 1: because you know, many millions of families have two working
Speaker 1: parents or at least a female part in the workforce,
Speaker 1: and the bathrooms either get cleaned or at least aren't
Speaker 1: hurting anyone. But you can truly believe that there's no
Speaker 1: space for things if you don't have the practice of
Speaker 1: combining these things.
Speaker 2: Well, yes, and I think the other issue that you're
Speaker 2: alluding to, or that woman was saying pretty strongly, is
Speaker 2: that she felt it was her responsibility to clean the bathroom.
Speaker 2: And really, in twenty twenty four, it's it's it's astonishing
Speaker 2: that women still feel that those four jobs are solely
Speaker 2: on their shoulders, and it's it's really about figuring out
Speaker 2: how to divide and conquer in the household and with
Speaker 2: the family responsibilities, so that you know that the bathroom's
Speaker 2: going to be cleaned and everything else is going to
Speaker 2: get done within reason. And I always quote you my favorite,
Speaker 2: one of my favorite quotes of all times is done
Speaker 2: is better than perfect. And you know, so there's a
Speaker 2: certain amount of reality that has to be injected into
Speaker 2: your life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and real quick mentioned you know, you do talk
Speaker 1: about negotiation with other adults in a household, about sharing
Speaker 1: the load. I wonder if there's any sort of practical
Speaker 1: suggestions from the women you interviewed about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really very interesting. There's a obviously a
Speaker 2: misconception that women in the C suite have running hot
Speaker 2: and cold, running help and oh, well, of course they
Speaker 2: can do the four jobs because they have these big
Speaker 2: jobs and they have you know, big salaries, and they
Speaker 2: can outsource everything. But what I found out is that
Speaker 2: just virtually all of them, they led pretty regular lives,
Speaker 2: you know, going to the grocery store and cooking dinner
Speaker 2: and getting home for dinner and all of that. But
Speaker 2: what they really did is they didn't throw money at
Speaker 2: the four jobs. They threw organization at the four jobs.
Speaker 2: So they brought their business skills home and they really
Speaker 2: created systems and processes and agreements with their spouse, their partner,
Speaker 2: and their kids about how all of this was going
Speaker 2: to get done. And really one of the biggest issues
Speaker 2: is not saying you know that the husband or partner
Speaker 2: doesn't say, oh, well, how can I help you? Because
Speaker 2: you know it's your kids too, it's your household too,
Speaker 2: and so instead of how can I help you? It's
Speaker 2: what can I own? And once once there, you know,
Speaker 2: you get several of those things off your plate, then
Speaker 2: the mental load of the four jobs really gets much lighter,
Speaker 2: and you start to think I can stay in the workforce,
Speaker 2: I can keep doing this.
Speaker 1: Excellent. Well, We're going to take one more quick ad
Speaker 1: break and then I'll be back with more from Catherine Sulman. Well,
Speaker 1: I am back. This is before breakfast. I am interviewing
Speaker 1: Catherine Sulman, who is the author of The Four Jobs Club.
Speaker 1: She's a career coach. She's worked with many successful and
Speaker 1: ambitious women over the years. So Catherine, let's talk about
Speaker 1: one last tip from your book, which was to put
Speaker 1: self care on the top of your to do list.
Speaker 1: And I gotta say, every time I hear the self
Speaker 1: care and I'm picturing the bubble baths, I'm getting a
Speaker 1: little like, man, I don't know if the bubble bath's
Speaker 1: really gonna help. So maybe you could describe a little
Speaker 1: bit more about what it actually means to put self
Speaker 1: care on the top of your to do list.
Speaker 2: What I've found with these women, just taking exercise as
Speaker 2: an example, they scheduled ex size the way they scheduled
Speaker 2: business meetings, and so again this is you know, the
Speaker 2: business structure that they brought to their lives as well.
Speaker 2: So they would say, you know, they a lot of
Speaker 2: them got up at crazy early hours, but which I
Speaker 2: couldn't do. But still, you know, it was every day
Speaker 2: at five o'clock they were going to do this, or
Speaker 2: every day at seven o'clock they met friends for a
Speaker 2: walk or whatever. But it was it was routine and
Speaker 2: it was non negotiable. And so that was one one thing.
Speaker 2: But the other thing I found with these women is
Speaker 2: that they they really identified things that gave them peace
Speaker 2: and relaxation. Like one woman said that she would go
Speaker 2: in her bedroom and shut her door for an hour
Speaker 2: after dinner and she would read about art and it
Speaker 2: just you know, would calm her, clear her mind, you
Speaker 2: know whatever. And her family knew that that was her time.
Speaker 2: So it's they were really intentional about self care.
Speaker 1: Excellent. Well, and let's talk a little bit about you now,
Speaker 1: because obviously you're running busy career coaching practice doing various
Speaker 1: things where you have the connections to get, you know,
Speaker 1: all these C suite women to talk with you. Maybe
Speaker 1: you could talk a little bit about your own routines.
Speaker 1: Do you have any sort of daily routines? He said,
Speaker 1: you don't wake up at the crack of dawn to exercise,
Speaker 1: but is there something else that is a regular part
Speaker 1: of your life.
Speaker 2: Well, I love to cook, so I I really think about,
Speaker 2: you know, what's a great dinner for tonight most of
Speaker 2: the time, and that really relaxes me. And you know,
Speaker 2: just knowing that I have that ahead of me is
Speaker 2: something that I look forward to. And I'm also a
Speaker 2: religious news watcher at night. I love that relaxing.
Speaker 1: It seems like it wouldn't be relaxing at all.
Speaker 2: I know, I know it's probably not in many ways,
Speaker 2: but I just I just love that connection to the world.
Speaker 1: So you have sort of the evening routine of a
Speaker 1: very nice, well thought through dinner. Now you sit down
Speaker 1: and you watch the evening news. Is that how that works?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I love it. That's lovely. When do you do
Speaker 1: your planning, like, do you have a daily or weekly
Speaker 1: planning routine that works for you?
Speaker 2: I pretty much am thinking about what I'm going to
Speaker 2: do the next day, you know, a big list maker
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, and you know, try
Speaker 2: to get through it. I mean One of the things
Speaker 2: that I have gotten better at is not thinking that
Speaker 2: I'm going to get through fifteen things, and I try
Speaker 2: to segment, you know, what's the most important in all
Speaker 2: of that, so that you know, I really feel accomplished.
Speaker 1: Are big fans around here of limiting the to do list, right.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who listen to this
Speaker 1: who do get up at crazy early hours at the
Speaker 1: podcast called Before Breakfast. But whatever time we're getting up,
Speaker 1: limiting the to do list is always smart. So, Catherine,
Speaker 1: we always talk on this show about something you've done
Speaker 1: recently that has taken a day from great to awesome.
Speaker 1: So I'm curious if there's something you've done recently that's
Speaker 1: just made a day extra good for you.
Speaker 2: It's it is going into New York and visiting my girls.
Speaker 2: You know that that family connection, I mean, we all
Speaker 2: have that, but when your kids are not living at
Speaker 2: home anymore, you know, and with texting and everything else
Speaker 2: that we do stay in touch quite a bit, it
Speaker 2: can be you know, the in person connection can be
Speaker 2: lost a little bit. And so you know that we've
Speaker 2: had a lot of birthdays in the fall, and we've
Speaker 2: had some really great times in New York altogether.
Speaker 1: So you go in and like take them out for
Speaker 1: the evening.
Speaker 2: Yes, we do the dinner and you know, all kinds
Speaker 2: of fun things, walk around, go shopping.
Speaker 1: Sounds lovely. I don't know. My kids are most in
Speaker 1: the sort of teen high school age, and I'm sort
Speaker 1: of seeing in a couple of years that, uh, you
Speaker 1: know what it's going to be like visiting them as adults,
Speaker 1: and you know, I think it'll be interesting to see
Speaker 1: how they schedule their lives. Well, what are you looking
Speaker 1: forward to in the upcoming few weeks.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm definitely looking forward to the book launching on
Speaker 2: January seventh, and I'm just having like such great conversations
Speaker 2: with people. As a result, I'm talking to a lot
Speaker 2: of corporate employee resource groups, and you know, the things
Speaker 2: that that people talk about in their in their own lives,
Speaker 2: you know, the challenges that are not necessarily dire, but
Speaker 2: they're they still are hard and they've they've got to
Speaker 2: figure it out. And what I love is, you know,
Speaker 2: actually being in the room with people and seeing the
Speaker 2: light bulb go off, you know where they're like, oh,
Speaker 2: maybe I could try that, because really none of this
Speaker 2: is rocket science. It's just a matter of trying this
Speaker 2: and trying that, being a little more organized. It's a good.
Speaker 1: Approach to life in general. Well, Catherine, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for joining us. Where can our listeners find you?
Speaker 2: I am at Katherinsolman dot com and the book will
Speaker 2: be available in bookstores and Amazon and all the regular places.
Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Thank
Speaker 1: you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback on
Speaker 1: this or any other episode, you can always reach me
Speaker 1: at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. And in the meantime,
Speaker 1: this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
Speaker 1: the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
Speaker 1: If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
Speaker 1: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
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