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Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning.

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Speaker 1: This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's

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Speaker 1: episode is going to be a longer one part of

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Speaker 1: the series where I interview fascinating people about how they

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Speaker 1: take their days from great to awesome and the advice

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Speaker 1: they have for the rest of us. Today, I am

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Speaker 1: delighted to welcome Catherine Soulman to the program. Katherine is

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Speaker 1: a career coach. She works primarily with ambitious women, helping

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Speaker 1: people figure out their own definitions of success. Her most

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Speaker 1: recent book is called The Four Jobs Club. She's going

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Speaker 1: to explain to us what that means, and it contains

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Speaker 1: advice from various C suite women about how they are

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Speaker 1: managing all aspects of their lives. So Catherine, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 2: Oh happy to be here, Laura.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for coming on. Why don't you introduce

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Speaker 1: yourself a little bit more to our listeners. Tell them

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Speaker 1: about your career and your life.

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Speaker 2: Well, I have worked in every way that you can

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Speaker 2: think of. Started out in the corporate world and then

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Speaker 2: went off and did a couple of entrepreneurial ventures. I've

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Speaker 2: worked part time, I've worked freelance, I've worked consulting as

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Speaker 2: a marketing and communications person. I've always considered myself a writer,

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Speaker 2: but my mission since twenty twelve is to help women

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Speaker 2: stay in the workforce, and doing so in one of

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Speaker 2: the ways that I've done it because I really believe

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Speaker 2: that today there's so many ways that you can work

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Speaker 2: and still have your family and have your four jobs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have raised a family along the way

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, I have two adult daughters, both living in

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Speaker 2: New York City and working there, and they seem to

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Speaker 2: still love me.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's good. So you figured out a lot of

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Speaker 1: tips along the way from your own life as well.

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Speaker 1: So maybe you can tell us what are these four

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Speaker 1: jobs of which you speak. What are the four jobs

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Speaker 1: that people are juggling.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's the paid job, whatever that may be. And

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Speaker 2: then there is the job of raising children, the job

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Speaker 2: eventually of caring for aging parents, which can sometimes start

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Speaker 2: earlier than you think, and then the job of taking

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Speaker 2: care of your household.

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Speaker 1: And so for this recent book, The Four Jobs Club,

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Speaker 1: maybe you can talk a little bit about the process

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Speaker 1: of that. You interviewed a lot of incredibly successful women

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Speaker 1: about their lives.

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Speaker 2: Correct, I did, and what I wanted to do. I

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Speaker 2: around the time of the pandemic, I did a big

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Speaker 2: national survey and one of the big things that I

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Speaker 2: found out is that women at the mid level and

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Speaker 2: rising up from there really don't feel that they are

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Speaker 2: getting enough guidance from women in the C suite about

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Speaker 2: how they managed to stay in and how did they

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Speaker 2: do the four jobs. And you know, a lot of

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Speaker 2: the corporations talk about leadership and you know, how can

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Speaker 2: we get you to the top, and how can you

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Speaker 2: be a better negotiator, and how can you expand your

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Speaker 2: expertise and all of that. But the fact of the

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Speaker 2: matter is that if you don't have the four jobs

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Speaker 2: figured out, a lot of times women just don't feel

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Speaker 2: that they have the bandwidth for those four or the

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Speaker 2: next big promotion. So basically, I decided that I wanted

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Speaker 2: to ask those C suite women how they did it.

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Speaker 2: And it's not a profile of each of the fifty women.

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Speaker 2: It's really a compilation of more than two hundred tips,

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Speaker 2: you know, easy and easy out of you know, different

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Speaker 2: ways that you can approach all of those four jobs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, when I was reading through the book, I

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Speaker 1: noted that that there were a lot of it's very digestible,

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Speaker 1: So it's not that you're going to have to hear

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Speaker 1: all about you know, some some successful woman's life start

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Speaker 1: to finish here, but that you know, you might cover

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Speaker 1: the topic of say childcare, and then you know, have

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Speaker 1: ten tips from different people about what was most important

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Speaker 1: as they were figuring out relationships with their caregivers. Something

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Speaker 1: like that. Absolutely, Well, why don't we go through a

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Speaker 1: couple of those categories that you talked about in the

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Speaker 1: book and maybe you can share some of the practical

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Speaker 1: strategies that people shared with you, as you know, that

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Speaker 1: would be helpful for our listeners. So one that I

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Speaker 1: found interesting toward the end of the book, you said

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Speaker 1: volunteer with passion and precision. So what does it mean

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Speaker 1: to volunteer with passion and precision and what would that

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Speaker 1: look like as I'm deciding what to take on.

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Speaker 2: Well, one of the things about volunteering is that your

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Speaker 2: kids love to see you at school, for example, and

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Speaker 2: you know, so there are certain things that maybe you

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Speaker 2: want to do a little bit of you know, where

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Speaker 2: you can get into the classroom, but you also can

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Speaker 2: be more precise about what you're volunteering for, and it

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Speaker 2: can be more on your time because it's hard for

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Speaker 2: a lot of women to get to school during the day.

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Speaker 2: So it can be things that are done at night

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Speaker 2: or on the weekends. And it also can be things

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Speaker 2: where you are using your business skills. And a lot

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Speaker 2: of the women in the book talked about how they

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Speaker 2: really brought their business skills to the schools or the

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Speaker 2: community organizations and really found that it was more efficient

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Speaker 2: for them and it was more efficient for their committees.

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Speaker 2: And then you know, obviously having a passion about you

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Speaker 2: know what it is that you're giving your time to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, because if you're not enjoying it, then

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Speaker 1: there's not a whole lot of time point of using

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Speaker 1: your time for it, Which is the same thing for work.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: You found that a lot of the women talked about

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Speaker 1: make sure you really like your work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, make sure you like your work, and also

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Speaker 2: make sure that your work is really fitting your life,

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Speaker 2: because I think that satisfaction or joy that you get

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Speaker 2: from work is really masked by a bad structure, you know,

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Speaker 2: where you really don't have any breathing room.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so try to figure out how to get more

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Speaker 1: breathing room in your life is good. RS all right, Well,

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Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick ad break and then

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Speaker 1: we'll be back with more from Catherine Sulman. Well, I

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Speaker 1: am back interviewing Catherine Sulman, who is the author of

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Speaker 1: the book The Four Jobs Club. She's a career coach

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Speaker 1: who's worked with many ambitious and successful women over the years,

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Speaker 1: so she's sharing some of the tips from the book.

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Speaker 1: Another one you had is about expanding your definition of

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Speaker 1: family time. Now, what does it mean to expand your

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Speaker 1: definition of family time?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think when you're a working woman and you're

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Speaker 2: maybe you don't do a lot of fun activities during

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Speaker 2: the week and everyone's just running through their work and

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Speaker 2: school routines, that can be another source of feeling guilty.

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Speaker 2: You know, Oh my god, you know, I've got to

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Speaker 2: plan something amazing for the weekend. So you know, my

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Speaker 2: kids feel like we're you know, we're really fun. And

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Speaker 2: what I really found from so many of the women

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Speaker 2: is that they made important family time out of things

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Speaker 2: that you know, we're pretty ordinary, you know, just you know,

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Speaker 2: cooking together or doing you know, the family traditions around Christmas,

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Speaker 2: Sorhnica or wherever. It didn't have to be a big

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Speaker 2: planned event and that was another way to let yourself

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Speaker 2: off the hook and not get caught up in that

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Speaker 2: perfection cycle, so.

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Speaker 1: That, for instance, a weekend doesn't have to have a

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Speaker 1: ton of different events to still be enjoyable and yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well not only enjoyable, but just meaningful time spent with

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Speaker 2: your children. You know, it doesn't have to be a big,

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Speaker 2: huge event.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think awareness is a big chunk of

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Speaker 1: all of this, right that you know, you can recognize

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Speaker 1: that you're all there together and sort of linger in

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Speaker 1: that time and make the most of it, rather than

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Speaker 1: feeling that there must be some amazing other thing that

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Speaker 1: you should be planning into the time.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So what does it mean to be I want

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Speaker 1: to go back a little bit to that passion for

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Speaker 1: the work to be true to your professional DNA, because

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Speaker 1: that was another tip in your book. What does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that women have been hearing a lot

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Speaker 2: of messaging from the what I call the power sisterhood,

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Speaker 2: you know, Ryl Sandberg saying, you know, we all need

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Speaker 2: to lean in, and you know, there's that feeling that

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Speaker 2: we've got to get more women to the top. And

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Speaker 2: you know, certainly I believe that more women should be

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Speaker 2: in the c suite. But the operative word there is

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Speaker 2: not should be, it's if they want to be. And

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Speaker 2: you really have to think about what your definition of

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Speaker 2: ambition and successes. They're an awful lot of successful women

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Speaker 2: who make great contributions to various organizations without being in

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Speaker 2: the C suite. And sometimes you just don't have the

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Speaker 2: bandwidth to be in the C suite now or forever,

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Speaker 2: and so I always say it's okay to lean in between,

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Speaker 2: and often through lateral moves, you can still be expanding

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Speaker 2: your portfolio of skills and expertise.

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Speaker 1: But you really encourage women to stay in in some capacity.

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Speaker 1: That's my takeaway from a lot of your writing is

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Speaker 1: that even if you are dealing with intense stuff in

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Speaker 1: your personal life, you know, between your kids or your

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Speaker 1: parents or anything along those lines, that trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out a way to at least keep a hand in

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Speaker 1: is important. Maybe you could explain why that has been

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Speaker 1: your philosophy.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and that is my philosophy. I really do put

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Speaker 2: my stake in the ground. So I'm not one of

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Speaker 2: the people saying, well, you can have it all, but

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Speaker 2: not at the same time, you know, not that I

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Speaker 2: believe that women should always work in some way from

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Speaker 2: college to retirement. But that doesn't mean that you have

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Speaker 2: to work eighty hours a week and never see your

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Speaker 2: kids and travel and commute long distances and all of that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, today you can basically work ten hours a

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Speaker 2: week and keep your hand in. And a lot of

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Speaker 2: what I believe derives from my career coaching work, where

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Speaker 2: I really feel that I'm often asked to be a

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Speaker 2: psychiatrist as much of a as a career coach, and

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Speaker 2: I am not trained as a psychiatrist, but I do

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Speaker 2: get a lot of women who are coming to me

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Speaker 2: with pretty sad stories about you know, husbands lost big

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Speaker 2: deal jobs, got divorced, first husband, got sick and can't

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Speaker 2: work anymore. You know, a lot of a lot of stories,

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Speaker 2: and I call them life. You never knows, and you know,

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Speaker 2: life happens to all of us. And so I just

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Speaker 2: believe that if we're going to ensure our houses and

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Speaker 2: we're going to ensure our cars, we need to ensure

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Speaker 2: our financial security as well. And one of the ways

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Speaker 2: that women can do that is to really keep your

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Speaker 2: hand in all the time.

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Speaker 1: Because it adds up over time, and then you know,

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Speaker 1: if you are working ten hours a week, presumably you

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Speaker 1: have some possibility of scaling up if you needed to,

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Speaker 1: whereas if you were working none, it might be harder

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Speaker 1: to get your foot in the door. Is that what

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Speaker 1: you're saying?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely, And when women come to me, they often say,

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Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if I can do this anymore.

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Speaker 2: There's this going on and that going on, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I need to take a couple of years off and

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Speaker 2: get things in order. But the fact is that those

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Speaker 2: couple of years that they have in their minds, that

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Speaker 2: turns into an average of twelve because life happens and

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Speaker 2: happens and happens, and there's always a reason not to

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Speaker 2: go back, and there are you know, huge amounts of

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Speaker 2: money and career progression, and you know just that you're

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Speaker 2: giving up every year that you're.

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Speaker 1: Out well, and also just a mindset too of like

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Speaker 1: what is possible when you haven't been combining the two.

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Speaker 1: I believe, Catherine, if I can remember correctly, it was

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Speaker 1: at a conference that you were running where somebody raised

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Speaker 1: her hand and said she was nervous about getting back

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Speaker 1: in the workforce because when we're the bathrooms going to

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Speaker 1: get cleaned. I think that was literally what she said.

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Speaker 1: And you know, of course that strikes me as odd

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Speaker 1: because you know, many millions of families have two working

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Speaker 1: parents or at least a female part in the workforce,

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Speaker 1: and the bathrooms either get cleaned or at least aren't

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Speaker 1: hurting anyone. But you can truly believe that there's no

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Speaker 1: space for things if you don't have the practice of

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Speaker 1: combining these things.

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, and I think the other issue that you're

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Speaker 2: alluding to, or that woman was saying pretty strongly, is

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Speaker 2: that she felt it was her responsibility to clean the bathroom.

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Speaker 2: And really, in twenty twenty four, it's it's it's astonishing

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Speaker 2: that women still feel that those four jobs are solely

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Speaker 2: on their shoulders, and it's it's really about figuring out

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Speaker 2: how to divide and conquer in the household and with

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Speaker 2: the family responsibilities, so that you know that the bathroom's

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Speaker 2: going to be cleaned and everything else is going to

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Speaker 2: get done within reason. And I always quote you my favorite,

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Speaker 2: one of my favorite quotes of all times is done

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Speaker 2: is better than perfect. And you know, so there's a

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Speaker 2: certain amount of reality that has to be injected into

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Speaker 2: your life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and real quick mentioned you know, you do talk

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Speaker 1: about negotiation with other adults in a household, about sharing

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Speaker 1: the load. I wonder if there's any sort of practical

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Speaker 1: suggestions from the women you interviewed about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really very interesting. There's a obviously a

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Speaker 2: misconception that women in the C suite have running hot

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Speaker 2: and cold, running help and oh, well, of course they

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Speaker 2: can do the four jobs because they have these big

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Speaker 2: jobs and they have you know, big salaries, and they

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Speaker 2: can outsource everything. But what I found out is that

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Speaker 2: just virtually all of them, they led pretty regular lives,

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Speaker 2: you know, going to the grocery store and cooking dinner

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Speaker 2: and getting home for dinner and all of that. But

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Speaker 2: what they really did is they didn't throw money at

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Speaker 2: the four jobs. They threw organization at the four jobs.

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Speaker 2: So they brought their business skills home and they really

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Speaker 2: created systems and processes and agreements with their spouse, their partner,

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Speaker 2: and their kids about how all of this was going

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Speaker 2: to get done. And really one of the biggest issues

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Speaker 2: is not saying you know that the husband or partner

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Speaker 2: doesn't say, oh, well, how can I help you? Because

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Speaker 2: you know it's your kids too, it's your household too,

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Speaker 2: and so instead of how can I help you? It's

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Speaker 2: what can I own? And once once there, you know,

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Speaker 2: you get several of those things off your plate, then

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Speaker 2: the mental load of the four jobs really gets much lighter,

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Speaker 2: and you start to think I can stay in the workforce,

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Speaker 2: I can keep doing this.

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Speaker 1: Excellent. Well, We're going to take one more quick ad

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Speaker 1: break and then I'll be back with more from Catherine Sulman. Well,

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Speaker 1: I am back. This is before breakfast. I am interviewing

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Speaker 1: Catherine Sulman, who is the author of The Four Jobs Club.

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Speaker 1: She's a career coach. She's worked with many successful and

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Speaker 1: ambitious women over the years. So Catherine, let's talk about

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Speaker 1: one last tip from your book, which was to put

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Speaker 1: self care on the top of your to do list.

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Speaker 1: And I gotta say, every time I hear the self

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Speaker 1: care and I'm picturing the bubble baths, I'm getting a

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Speaker 1: little like, man, I don't know if the bubble bath's

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Speaker 1: really gonna help. So maybe you could describe a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about what it actually means to put self

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Speaker 1: care on the top of your to do list.

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Speaker 2: What I've found with these women, just taking exercise as

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Speaker 2: an example, they scheduled ex size the way they scheduled

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Speaker 2: business meetings, and so again this is you know, the

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Speaker 2: business structure that they brought to their lives as well.

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Speaker 2: So they would say, you know, they a lot of

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Speaker 2: them got up at crazy early hours, but which I

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Speaker 2: couldn't do. But still, you know, it was every day

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Speaker 2: at five o'clock they were going to do this, or

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Speaker 2: every day at seven o'clock they met friends for a

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Speaker 2: walk or whatever. But it was it was routine and

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Speaker 2: it was non negotiable. And so that was one one thing.

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Speaker 2: But the other thing I found with these women is

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Speaker 2: that they they really identified things that gave them peace

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Speaker 2: and relaxation. Like one woman said that she would go

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Speaker 2: in her bedroom and shut her door for an hour

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Speaker 2: after dinner and she would read about art and it

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Speaker 2: just you know, would calm her, clear her mind, you

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Speaker 2: know whatever. And her family knew that that was her time.

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Speaker 2: So it's they were really intentional about self care.

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Speaker 1: Excellent. Well, and let's talk a little bit about you now,

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Speaker 1: because obviously you're running busy career coaching practice doing various

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Speaker 1: things where you have the connections to get, you know,

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Speaker 1: all these C suite women to talk with you. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you could talk a little bit about your own routines.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any sort of daily routines? He said,

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Speaker 1: you don't wake up at the crack of dawn to exercise,

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Speaker 1: but is there something else that is a regular part

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Speaker 1: of your life.

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Speaker 2: Well, I love to cook, so I I really think about,

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Speaker 2: you know, what's a great dinner for tonight most of

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Speaker 2: the time, and that really relaxes me. And you know,

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Speaker 2: just knowing that I have that ahead of me is

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Speaker 2: something that I look forward to. And I'm also a

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Speaker 2: religious news watcher at night. I love that relaxing.

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Speaker 1: It seems like it wouldn't be relaxing at all.

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Speaker 2: I know, I know it's probably not in many ways,

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Speaker 2: but I just I just love that connection to the world.

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Speaker 1: So you have sort of the evening routine of a

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Speaker 1: very nice, well thought through dinner. Now you sit down

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Speaker 1: and you watch the evening news. Is that how that works?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, I love it. That's lovely. When do you do

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Speaker 1: your planning, like, do you have a daily or weekly

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Speaker 1: planning routine that works for you?

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Speaker 2: I pretty much am thinking about what I'm going to

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Speaker 2: do the next day, you know, a big list maker

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, and you know, try

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Speaker 2: to get through it. I mean One of the things

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Speaker 2: that I have gotten better at is not thinking that

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get through fifteen things, and I try

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Speaker 2: to segment, you know, what's the most important in all

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Speaker 2: of that, so that you know, I really feel accomplished.

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Speaker 1: Are big fans around here of limiting the to do list, right.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who listen to this

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Speaker 1: who do get up at crazy early hours at the

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Speaker 1: podcast called Before Breakfast. But whatever time we're getting up,

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Speaker 1: limiting the to do list is always smart. So, Catherine,

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Speaker 1: we always talk on this show about something you've done

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Speaker 1: recently that has taken a day from great to awesome.

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Speaker 1: So I'm curious if there's something you've done recently that's

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Speaker 1: just made a day extra good for you.

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Speaker 2: It's it is going into New York and visiting my girls.

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Speaker 2: You know that that family connection, I mean, we all

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Speaker 2: have that, but when your kids are not living at

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Speaker 2: home anymore, you know, and with texting and everything else

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Speaker 2: that we do stay in touch quite a bit, it

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Speaker 2: can be you know, the in person connection can be

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Speaker 2: lost a little bit. And so you know that we've

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Speaker 2: had a lot of birthdays in the fall, and we've

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Speaker 2: had some really great times in New York altogether.

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Speaker 1: So you go in and like take them out for

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Speaker 1: the evening.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we do the dinner and you know, all kinds

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Speaker 2: of fun things, walk around, go shopping.

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Speaker 1: Sounds lovely. I don't know. My kids are most in

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Speaker 1: the sort of teen high school age, and I'm sort

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Speaker 1: of seeing in a couple of years that, uh, you

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Speaker 1: know what it's going to be like visiting them as adults,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I think it'll be interesting to see

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Speaker 1: how they schedule their lives. Well, what are you looking

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Speaker 1: forward to in the upcoming few weeks.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm definitely looking forward to the book launching on

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Speaker 2: January seventh, and I'm just having like such great conversations

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Speaker 2: with people. As a result, I'm talking to a lot

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Speaker 2: of corporate employee resource groups, and you know, the things

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Speaker 2: that that people talk about in their in their own lives,

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Speaker 2: you know, the challenges that are not necessarily dire, but

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Speaker 2: they're they still are hard and they've they've got to

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Speaker 2: figure it out. And what I love is, you know,

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Speaker 2: actually being in the room with people and seeing the

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Speaker 2: light bulb go off, you know where they're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: maybe I could try that, because really none of this

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Speaker 2: is rocket science. It's just a matter of trying this

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Speaker 2: and trying that, being a little more organized. It's a good.

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Speaker 1: Approach to life in general. Well, Catherine, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for joining us. Where can our listeners find you?

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Speaker 2: I am at Katherinsolman dot com and the book will

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Speaker 2: be available in bookstores and Amazon and all the regular places.

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Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Thank

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Speaker 1: you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback on

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Speaker 1: this or any other episode, you can always reach me

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Speaker 1: at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. And in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making

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Speaker 1: the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.

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Speaker 1: If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach

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Speaker 1: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast

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Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,

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Speaker 1: please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.