1 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:05,119 Speaker 1: Welcome to Wellness Unmass. I'm your host, doctor Cole Saffire, 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: and today we're diving into kind of a quiet but 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: potentially a consequential crisis. America's steadily declining birth rate. That's right, 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: when it comes to how many babies we're having, we 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: are below what it's recommended if we're going to keep 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: our population up, Meaning as our population continues to age, 7 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: we're having fewer and fewer babies. And ever since twenty 8 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: twenty three, our numbers are way below where it needs 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: to be. That two point one is that goal mark 10 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: they want people to be having on average about about 11 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: two kids per woman. Well, Elon Musk has been very 12 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: vocal about this for anybody who follows him on X, 13 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: I mean, he obviously makes headlines for a lot of reasons, 14 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: but he's absolutely been sounding the alarm on the very 15 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: issue we're going to be discussing. He said in quote 16 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: population collapse due to low birth rates is a much 17 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: bigger risk to civilization than global warning. Mark these words, 18 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: and he continues to say things like he argued that 19 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: we need a fertility rate of at least two point 20 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: seven children for women, so not two children for women, 21 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: but he's arguing up to three to stabilize the population 22 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: because so many today are choosing not to have children 23 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: at all. So why is that, Well, there's a lot 24 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: of reasons. There are fewer people getting married, people are 25 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: getting married and having babies later on in life, so 26 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: therefore they're having fewer kids. It's more expensive. We're also 27 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: seeing fertility issues here in the United States and across 28 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: the world. If you have menstruation changes in young girls, 29 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: a lot of women having difficulty having babies. And then 30 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: on top of that, the answer to everyone's problem seems 31 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: to be IVF. Well, IVF is expensive and it's not 32 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: something that everybody wants to do, and so instead of 33 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: tackling the root causes of why people aren't having as 34 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: many babies anymore, we keep just saying, all right, well, 35 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: we'll just do IVF or we'll do whatever it is, 36 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: but we need to look at some of the root causes. 37 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: I'm extremely excited today to have Emma Waters. She's a 38 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: policy expert at the Heritage Foundation. This is what she does. 39 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: She has studied policies all across the globe. Because the 40 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: United States were not the only ones with low birth rates. 41 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: In fact, there are a lot of other countries that 42 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: are much lower than ours, including Europe and Asia, and 43 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: so she has looked at all the policies that they've 44 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: done to see what works and what doesn't work. You're 45 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: listening to Wellness and Mass. We'll be right back with more, Okay, 46 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: well Joining me today is Emma Waters, policy expert at 47 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: the Heritage Foundation, where she focuses on family formation, marriage 48 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: and demographic trends. Emma has been one of the boldest 49 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: voices sounding the alarm on our declining birth rate and 50 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: pushing back against the idea that this is just an 51 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: inevitable shift. So, Emma, do you agree with Elon Musk 52 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: when he says that population collapse is truly our greatest 53 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: existential threat. 54 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: I think that Elon Musk has done more than almost 55 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: anyone to raise awareness about declining birth rates to a 56 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: national and even global scale. When he says that decline 57 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: birth rates are the number one demographic crisis, however, I 58 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: think that's where I probably would deviate a little bit 59 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: and say that it's not just declining birth rates that 60 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: we're concerned about, but it's the failure of millions of 61 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 2: families to form families in the United States. So it's 62 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 2: not simply that we're having fewer children, but it's that 63 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 2: fewer people are getting married and forming those necessary bonds 64 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 2: that really are the basis of our society. 65 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: So when you say that, I mean you are taking 66 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: this to a greater scale. Elon Musk is essentially saying, 67 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: we're just not having enough babies to replace, you know, 68 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: our aging population. We see it all over the world. 69 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: We have declining birth rates. They say that you want 70 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: to be at two point one births per woman to 71 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: be able to replace the population and continue to grow. 72 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: A lot of countries are below that, and since twenty 73 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: twenty three, the US is now below that as well. 74 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: But you are pointing to kind of bigger issues. It's 75 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: not just about how many babies women are having, but 76 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: the question is why aren't they having babies? And what 77 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: are your thoughts on that. 78 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is exactly right. So if you look beyond 79 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 2: even the twenty first century and go back to the 80 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: twentieth century, long before we had declining birth rates in 81 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: the United States, we had a marriage crisis, and so 82 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: from the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies onward, we saw 83 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 2: a divorce fight, We saw an increase in single parenthood. 84 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: Some of this was motivated by no fault divorce, some 85 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 2: of this by the sexual revolution and hookup culture. But 86 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 2: marriage was really redefined in the twentieth century and from 87 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: then onwards has shifted away from being the cornerstone or 88 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 2: the basis of a person's life that they build and 89 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 2: become the capstone something that they seek to sort of 90 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 2: tap a cap off their career success, their personal fulfillment. 91 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: And so with that shift to view marriage as something 92 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 2: we pursue later in life as an add on to 93 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 2: who we are, not the basis of maybe who we 94 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 2: are in our family and our nation. We've seen declining 95 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 2: birth rates come out of that, so you're absolutely right. 96 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty three and then twenty twenty four, birth 97 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 2: rates then declining a lot in the United States, so 98 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 2: we're now down to one point five to nine berths 99 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 2: on average per woman, which is well below the replacement 100 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 2: rate of two point one. Now, the United States is 101 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 2: about neck and neck with most European nations on this front. 102 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 2: So developing nations and Israel tend to have a much 103 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: higher birth rate, but sadly, with the United States and Europe, 104 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: there's just been an ongoing downward trend. So the reasons 105 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 2: for that are complicated. And I like to say that 106 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 2: if anyone tells you that there's a single driver for 107 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 2: declining birth rates, they're probably trying to sell you something 108 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: which is usually a single solution for declining birth rates. 109 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: And I think both of those approaches really miss the 110 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 2: point here. And so there's a couple of things to 111 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: keep in mind. The first is the economic question, and 112 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 2: so the economic portion of this is really interesting to 113 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 2: me because on the one hand, there are serious economic 114 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 2: factors that make it hard to form and sustain families, 115 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 2: especially of multiple children today, and so there's a very 116 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: real sense that we do need to provide married, working 117 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 2: families with support in having the children and families that 118 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: they desire. On the other hand, across the United States 119 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 2: and the globe, when you see a country increase its 120 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: GDP or its affluenced material wealth, you see birth rates decline. 121 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,799 Speaker 2: And so there's this inverted relationship where the more wealthy 122 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 2: a country becomes, the more wealthy estate becomes, their birth 123 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 2: rates tend to decline. And this is the case across 124 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 2: the United States. States with a higher median income have 125 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 2: a lower birth rate compared to state. I think so 126 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: there's a couple. I think there's a couple of potential things. 127 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 2: Catherine Bucolic a professor at Catholic University of America. She 128 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 2: makes the argument that children are no longer in economic necessity, 129 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 2: and so in lower income nations and potentially states, you 130 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: need to children to help support the family business, the 131 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 2: family well being, to work, to help take care of children, 132 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 2: there's more of an economic necessity for them, and certainly 133 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: that was more the case in the twentieth century than 134 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: the twenty first. But I think what you're also seeing 135 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: is an elevated expectation for what you should provide children. 136 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 2: So think about like my great grandparents they had like, 137 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: you know, eight kids, and they were like, all right, kids, 138 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 2: I fed you, I put you through school, you worked 139 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: on the farm, you turned eighteen, good luck, get out there, 140 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 2: figure something out. Very much like do it yourself mindset, 141 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: And there wasn't really an expectation that parents weren't necessarily 142 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 2: financially providing above the necessities for children, and certainly not 143 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: once they reached adulthood, whereas today there's this driving expectation 144 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 2: where parents are not only providing the car when they 145 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 2: turn sixteen, providing the best education that they can buy, 146 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 2: which oftentimes can be very pricey, providing a number of 147 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: other material goods, but also there's college, there's a wedding, 148 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: there's providing for your throughout. And while those are all 149 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 2: like very very good things, I think the expectation that 150 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: that's the norm to provide for every child has meant 151 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: that most families who aren't making above one hundred thousand 152 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 2: dollars are looking at and saying, well, I may be 153 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: able to do that for one kid, I may be 154 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: able to do it for two, but it's going to 155 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: be really hard to sustain through your four children at 156 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 2: that rate, and even for families making much more than that, 157 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 2: I think there's been a shift in our mindset where 158 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: we're hoping, where the expectation is you want to give 159 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: as much as possible to the children you can provide for, 160 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 2: which just tends to be fewer than a large family. 161 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. 162 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: So I think like the materialism part of that is 163 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 2: interesting because it also means that simply. 164 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: Providing large cash or. 165 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 2: Financial incentives to have children I don't think really addresses 166 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: the problem because it just plays into that shift towards 167 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: materialism a little bit more so, countries across Europe who 168 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 2: have spent millions of dollars supporting families have not seen 169 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: an increase in their birth rates. And despite very generous programs, 170 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: most birth rates in Europe have continued to decline. 171 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: Not just Europe, right, We're talking all across the world. 172 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: I think Singapore, Japan, South Korea. They all gave like 173 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: the birth grants up to South Korea gave up to 174 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars birth grants per baby, plus free child 175 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: hare care, fertility subsidies, and housing perks for parents, and 176 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: they have still remained the world's lowest birth rate at 177 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: I think less than one point seven or something along 178 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: those lines. 179 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 2: Well, and South Korea is so interesting too because they 180 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 2: even give you paid time off for quote unquote pro 181 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 2: creation days, which. 182 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:44,119 Speaker 1: Is hilarious, Like they really bring that to the United States, right. 183 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 2: So yeah, so the last yeah, no, it's it's really 184 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 2: and it's really interesting in South Korea because you also 185 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: see an increase. It's particularly in South Korea, China and 186 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 2: Japan where a number of women are simply saying that's fine, 187 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 2: like the government wants us to have more babies, but 188 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 2: like we really just care about our careers and it's 189 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: not like a bad thing. Bay it means right, like, 190 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 2: I love my job and the work that I do. 191 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: But there's this like interesting shift where it's not an 192 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: expectation that you can pursue marriage, motherhood and your career, 193 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: but that they're choosing between the two, and increasingly, especially 194 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,599 Speaker 2: in those countries, they're choosing career and foregoing children in 195 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 2: marriage altogether. And I think there's a lot of cultural 196 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 2: baggage there that's being unpacked slowly but surely. But that's 197 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 2: another really interesting part of this, where I think women 198 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 2: in particular are feeling like they have to choose between 199 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 2: the two in a way that yeah, doesn't really match 200 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 2: for a good family or a desire to have many children. 201 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: Well that's an interesting point as myself. You know, I 202 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: went to college, to medical school, to advanced training being 203 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: a professional woman. You hear a lot of people when 204 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: they talk about the declining birthrate, is that, you know, 205 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: ever since education and women join the professional workforce, you know, 206 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: this just went hand in hand. And I can understand 207 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: that to some extent, and I think I actually saw 208 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: stat don't quote me, in the last year or two 209 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: there were more women in the United States in their 210 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: forties having babies than teenagers, which on one hand is 211 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: excellent that we're not having team as many teen pregnancies. However, 212 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: to be over forty, when you are over forty starting 213 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: to have your babies, the chances of you having more 214 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: than one drastically decrease, and on top of that, you 215 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: have more difficult time having a baby in general. 216 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely right, and I think that's a part 217 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 2: of the conversation too, is just the age of first 218 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 2: marriage is raised, is rising continually, and the age of 219 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 2: first child is rising continually, and that brings in maybe 220 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: one of the more controversial parts of the conversation when 221 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: it comes to IVF or other assisted reproductive technologies. So 222 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 2: it's interesting is the CDC announced their announced this new 223 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 2: decline in birth rates last week, and then the next 224 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 2: day was National IVF Day. And so in many cases, 225 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 2: especially across the United States and actually across the Europe 226 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 2: and Asia, people have talked about IVF being the solution 227 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 2: for declining birth rates, that men and women are struggling 228 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 2: to have kids, they're waiting later. So you have China 229 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 2: who's investing millions of dollars and opening new IVF clinics 230 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: all across the country. 231 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: You have huntry like putting a band aid on a 232 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: bullet wound, Like you're not addressing that, why exactly women 233 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: aren't having babies? 234 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, that's exactly it. 235 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 236 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 2: And what's really interesting is there's one study that's been 237 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 2: done in the United States looking at corporations and state 238 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 2: level IVF mandates where they're offering to pay for it. 239 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:40,599 Speaker 2: And while the really interesting takeaway from those five studies 240 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 2: was that when there's an IVF mandate in place, the 241 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 2: overall birth rate does not actually increase, but you do 242 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 2: see younger women slightly less likely to have children, and 243 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 2: you have older women slightly more likely to have children. 244 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 2: And in one study it actually showed us small delay 245 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: in marriage rates too, before and after the implementation. And 246 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 2: so what that suggests is that there's an unintended consequence 247 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 2: when these technologies are viewed as the solution to declining 248 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: birth rates, because it provides this hope that you can 249 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: delay children much longer than maybe would be biologically best 250 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 2: for your body. But then out the net result is 251 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 2: that you're actually far less likely to have a larger 252 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 2: family so if you don't start having kids until you're 253 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 2: in your forties, like you said, the number of children 254 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: that you can reasonably have is just much much lower. 255 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 2: And so I think that's also an interesting part of 256 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 2: this is like simply relying on these technologies, which has 257 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 2: certainly helped millions of men and women have children that 258 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 2: they deeply love and desire, is not going to actually 259 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 2: be the solution to declining birth rates, even if it 260 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 2: does help couples who are struggling with infertility. 261 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: So when we've looked at countries across the world who 262 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: have been doing a lot of these policies trying to 263 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: increase their birth rates, it's pretty clear that the cash 264 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: bonuses anywhere from three thousand to ten thousand for child 265 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: doesn't have a strong effect. That's one thing that we're 266 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: talking about doing here in the United States, but it 267 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: doesn't really. It sounds great, but it doesn't seem that 268 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: it has long term impact. Also, other countries have done 269 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: free childcare and some other supportive measures along those lines, 270 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: and those are the Democrats here in the United States. 271 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: They're big talking points, Well, if we had free child care, 272 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: if we had you know, these birth cash incentives, then 273 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: maybe we'd see a rise, but when we look globally, 274 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily move the needle. Are there particular countries 275 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: whose strategies that you find, you know, instructive or cautionary. 276 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: Yes, is a really great question. Yeah, it seems like 277 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 2: across the globe. Hungry is, of course one of the 278 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 2: biggest examples of a country who's invested I think up 279 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 2: to four to five percent of their national GDP in 280 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 2: these pro family policy measures and so on. The ones 281 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 2: say I think it's they've been well, it's really interesting. 282 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: They've been successful in boosting the marriage rates and the 283 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 2: abortion rate has declined as a consequence, but their birth 284 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 2: rate has unfortunately continued to decline again. It initially saw 285 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 2: a bomb and it started to decline, which is like, 286 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 2: not like this is something I think everyone is grieving. 287 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: This isn't ah, poor Hungary, like we're cheering that you 288 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 2: were wrong. This is something that I think has been 289 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 2: really instructive and really heartbreaking to see because clearly whatever 290 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 2: is causing the decline in birth rates isn't something that 291 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 2: can just be solved with these financial incentives and is 292 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 2: incredibly complicated and to your point, with paid childcare, paid 293 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 2: Parntal leave a number of these policies. None of them 294 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 2: have shown a reverse in the birth rate. Maybe it's 295 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 2: helped sustain birth rates so they're not falling as fast 296 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: as they otherwise would have. But the examples that we've 297 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 2: seen internationally have not actually worn the fruit. What's really 298 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 2: interesting is the countries that have either sustained their birth 299 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 2: rates or reversed birth rates. You have Israel, which is 300 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: an anomaly for a number of reasons, right like the 301 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: particular cultural context, religious context, on military context I think 302 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: has helped spur on a deep nationalism and desire to 303 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 2: have children. But you have a really interesting test case 304 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 2: in Romania where Romania has actually seen no, sorry, it's Georgia. 305 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: The country of Georgia has actually seen a really interesting 306 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 2: shift in birth rate. And it was because one of 307 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 2: the bishops of the Coptic Church came and said, I'll 308 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 2: baptize any babies that are born, you know, this year 309 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 2: onwards personally, And it was a really funny story because 310 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 2: they saw a surge in their birth rate after that. 311 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 2: And there's the sense I think where and this is 312 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 2: where we move beyond the economic question to actually address 313 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 2: declining birth rates. It one has to be situated in 314 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 2: the family. It can't simply be a conversation of you know, women, 315 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 2: apart from marriage and marriage it doesn't matter have more babies. 316 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: And two, there's this spiritual and religious component to this. 317 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 2: And this is beyond what should be a government policy, 318 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: right or a government initiative, But there's this very real 319 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 2: sense where happy and hope filled people tend to have babies. 320 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 2: People who believe in something greater than themselves, a transcendent God, 321 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 2: whatever religion that is, tend to be people who have 322 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 2: more children. You see this across many Muslim nations. You 323 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 2: see this across India, Israel, Georgia. In this instance, where 324 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 2: there's a high level of religiosity, this idea that you're 325 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 2: investing in something greater than yourself, you tend to see 326 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 2: higher birth rates. And I think there's a reason for 327 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 2: this twofold one is that religious states have a tend 328 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 2: to have a very good theology of suffering. And I 329 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 2: think anyone with children know that, like, having children is 330 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 2: a gift and it's a blessing and it's one of 331 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 2: the greatest things you can ever do, and yet it's 332 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 2: really incredibly hard and really hard things happen, whether it's 333 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 2: the loss of a child or injuries, or just the 334 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 2: fact that raising children is difficult in time consuming and 335 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: requires you giving so much of yourself within if you 336 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: abscribed to a religion, I think you see people who 337 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: have a good theology for thinking through suffering, suffering not 338 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 2: as an end in itself, but actually pointing towards a 339 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 2: greater good and a greater investment. And so I think 340 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 2: that's just a really interesting part of the conversation where 341 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 2: when we're thinking about encouraging family formation and boosting bird 342 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 2: rates in the United States, we need to have a 343 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 2: conversation we're having families is not only aspirational but attainable, 344 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 2: and that needs to be promoted not only by media 345 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 2: and conversations like these, not only in our political discourse, 346 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: but also among religious leaders and really spotlighting religious leaders 347 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 2: as essential yet leaders in this movement to help turn 348 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: help turn family formation. 349 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: Around more coming up on Wellness Unmasked with doctor Nicol Sapphire. 350 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: So we have President Trump who's talking about some things 351 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: that he wants to do to try and get the 352 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,719 Speaker 1: birth rate up, especially after Elon Musk went on his 353 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: ex posting rampage all about it and got everybody up 354 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: in a tizzy, you know, with RFK Junior at HHS 355 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: and President Trump in the White House. In your view, 356 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: what are maybe the most impactful policies at the White 357 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: House or Congress or even just states can pursue. I 358 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: know that you say, we obviously want to get religious organizations, 359 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 1: communities all involved, but is there something on a policy level, 360 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: and you've obviously studied policies from all across the world, 361 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: what do you think can be done here in the 362 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: United States. 363 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 2: Yes, and going back to what I said earlier, there's 364 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 2: no single solution, but I think there are a number 365 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 2: of smaller policies that, working together can hopefully boost and 366 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 2: even reverse declining birth rates. And so we at Heritage 367 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 2: and within my own research, we've very much taken all 368 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 2: hands on deck approach to this. So I think there 369 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 2: are a lot of things that the Executive that HHS 370 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 2: and even states can be doing to help encourage family 371 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 2: formation in birth rates in the United States. So a 372 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 2: couple of those things. One, I'm really interested in the 373 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 2: development of something like a family bonus, so some sort 374 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 2: of financial support for married, working families, much like the 375 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 2: baby bonus that President Trump has announced things like the 376 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 2: Baby Bond investment, I think are a way of showing 377 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 2: that we value and are willing to invest our resources 378 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 2: in children. I don't think any of those financial measures 379 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 2: in and of themselves are going to reverse trends or 380 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 2: be the solution, but I think it's part of a 381 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 2: larger package. They really positive things the United States can do. 382 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 2: At Heritage, we've really looked at revamping the entire tax 383 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 2: code to really focus on supporting married, working families. So 384 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 2: whether that's an increase in the child tax credit or 385 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 2: another metric, I think there's a lot that we can 386 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 2: do there. Paying taxes the last few years. We have 387 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 2: two children, and certainly the modest child tax credit that 388 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 2: we get is great, but I think everyone knows that 389 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 2: investing in children is far more expensive than just the 390 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 2: two thousand you get back for young children, and the 391 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 2: way that young children help stimulate the GDP. There's maybe 392 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 2: more we could do to help put money back in 393 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 2: the pockets of hardworking married families so that no one of. 394 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: The ones that I saw, I think it was hungry. 395 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: They essentially said lifetime income tax exemption for mothers who 396 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: have four children or more. I'm a mother of three, 397 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: so I would advocate it should be at three. But 398 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: lifetime income tax exemption. I mean that would absolutely if 399 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: one of the concerns is the economics of raising children, 400 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: that would make a difference. They're also I think I've 401 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: seen like interest free housing loans. You could talk about 402 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: property taxes. I mean, there are all these ways to 403 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 1: the federal government could incentivize and state governments could incentivize 404 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: people to have babies. 405 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and simply saying if you want to have children, 406 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 2: we're here to relieve the financial pressures. What's really interesting 407 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 2: is Hungary initially had it set at I think four 408 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 2: more children, and I think they lowered the number down 409 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 2: to three or more children because they were struggling to 410 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 2: have women hit that number. So again, in and of itself, 411 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 2: I don't think it's going to be the thing that 412 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 2: changes the birth rate, but certainly it would be really 413 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 2: helpful for those who do have larger families. Beyond that, 414 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 2: I think a really important part of this conversation is 415 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 2: the fact that there is high rates of infertility in 416 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 2: the United States. There's a high rate of reproductive health conditions, 417 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 2: particularly for women, like indometriosis in pcos that have largely 418 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: gone undiagnosed or a delayed diagnosis, with very little research 419 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 2: and funding going into treating those conditions. So I think 420 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 2: this is where I spend a lot of my time researching. 421 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 2: But I think the more we can do to help 422 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 2: boost a federal or a state level restore act. Arkansas 423 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 2: actually just enacted the first state level Restore Act in April, 424 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 2: and it simply provides research and funding support for families 425 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: and individuals who are hoping to treat the reproductive health conditions, 426 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 2: recognizing that not only does it help remove barriers for 427 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 2: successful pregnancy, but it also just improves an individual's overall 428 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: health and well being, because we know that an individual's 429 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 2: reproductive health is a good indicator of their overall physical 430 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 2: health and their ability to flourish in their given season 431 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 2: of life. And so I think the more that we 432 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 2: can do to really help support and provide families with 433 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 2: the resources they need to address their infertility is a 434 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 2: huge part of this, right because how many millions of 435 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 2: Americans desperately want to have children and not just one 436 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 2: child later in life, but have a big family of kids, 437 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 2: and yet are struggling to do so. And I think 438 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 2: that should that should just be unacceptable given the medical innovation, 439 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 2: given the knowledge that we have the ability that we 440 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 2: have to treat disease in the United States, and so 441 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 2: that's I think another big part of this is helping 442 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 2: address infertility reproductive health conditions. And then beyond that, I 443 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 2: think there's a number of things that we could look 444 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 2: at doing improving our single family housing affordability in the 445 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 2: United States. I think the Senate is has just introduced 446 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: the Roads Act looking at addressing more affordable family housing. 447 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: I think that's a huge part of the conversation, A 448 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 2: bit outside of my individual expertise, but something that I 449 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 2: know my family and many families would love to see 450 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 2: shifts in. And yeah, then beyond that, I think this 451 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: becomes a massive cultural conversation. So one of the most 452 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 2: encouraging developments from the executive has been the presence of 453 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 2: young children in the White House. Again, so one of 454 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 2: my favorite things to watch is Vice President Jade Vance 455 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 2: and his family. So at inauguration, his three children sitting there. 456 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 2: His son like goes to hit his wife's hair and 457 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 2: you can see her just like keep the poise of like, 458 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 2: I have worked so hard for this hair you're not 459 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 2: going to mess it up, and yet just sort of 460 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 2: laughing and enjoying that. Like, kids are a little chaotic 461 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 2: and they're you know, you can't control what they're going 462 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 2: to do or when they're going to act out, or 463 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 2: what's going to happen, and yet it is good and 464 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: they are not only tolerated, but they're welcome in our 465 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 2: public spaces. And so seeing his children come off Air 466 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 2: Force one and their pajamas tour the world with them, 467 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 2: I think on a cultural level, that is such a 468 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 2: powerful example of the kind of the way that we 469 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 2: want to welcome children in again, not just as something 470 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 2: we tolerate, but is something that we celebrate, bringing them 471 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 2: to conferences, having them integrated in our life, so that 472 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 2: there's not this strict divide between work and the home, 473 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 2: but that we do everything we can to welcome children 474 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 2: in all public spaces, from our work to our public 475 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 2: communities and beyond. And I think those sorts of examples 476 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 2: being set by the most prominent leaders in the United 477 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 2: States is going to have a massive, even of subtle 478 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 2: impact on the way that we think about children and 479 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 2: family formation. 480 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: Well, you know what, I know a lot of people 481 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: are feeling discouraged when they heard Elon Musk talking about 482 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: it when they look across the world, and maybe even 483 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: after our conversation, they might be feeling, you know, discouraged 484 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: about as a population what we're doing. But is there 485 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: any hopeful message that you can give people just to 486 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: offer to them. I mean, I've had three children, I'm 487 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 1: doing my part, but what else for other people who 488 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: maybe haven't started having their kids yet. 489 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, this is a really really great thing. So, 490 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 2: you know, I think the first thing I would say 491 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 2: is that for those who are on the fence about children, 492 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: we have research and self reported studies as well as 493 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 2: just many examples of families across the United States, myself included, 494 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 2: who have talked about what and just appsol, blessing and 495 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 2: delight children are. And for those who are really thinking 496 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 2: through the career dynamic how to have children, and I 497 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 2: think the thing I would say is that there are 498 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 2: always going to be unknowns in life, and there are 499 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 2: always going to be things that are beyond our control. 500 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 2: But without a doubt, having children is going to be 501 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 2: one of the greatest adventures that you endeavor on. It's 502 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 2: going to bring such a sense of purpose and meaning 503 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 2: in your life and be a way that you continue 504 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 2: to grow and mature as a person throughout time. So 505 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 2: I think that there's just this incredible opportunity before us 506 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 2: just to take a risk and jump in and trust 507 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 2: that having kids will be like learning how to walk. 508 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 2: It's a little awkward and difficult at first, but then 509 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 2: you just sort of figure it out as you go 510 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 2: and that it is a good thing, and that it's 511 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 2: something that certainly is and can be attainable for all Americans. 512 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 2: And I think the second thing I would say is 513 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 2: that it's never that, Yeah, this is the perfect opportunity 514 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 2: to consider what your overall family planning goals are, your 515 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 2: life planning goals, that this is the time to have 516 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 2: the conversation either with yourself, thinking through my career next 517 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 2: steps and we're to children in marriage, fit in, or 518 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 2: with your partner now and finding ways that even if 519 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 2: you don't have children, you can be supportive and involved 520 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: in others' lives. I think some of the like without 521 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 2: a doubt, the biggest blessings my husband and I have 522 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 2: experienced outside of having kids are our friends who have 523 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 2: stepped in and been an active part of their lives, 524 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 2: especially before they've been able to have kids, and so 525 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 2: they come and they hang out with their kids. They're 526 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: happy to babysit, they come for dinner. They are understanding 527 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 2: and accommodating when we have limitations because of young children, 528 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 2: or the fact that both of our mothers and families 529 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 2: have done so much to come and be present and 530 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 2: help with us. So I think even if you're outside 531 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 2: of your child grand years or not able to have 532 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 2: kids right now, asking how you can be involved in 533 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 2: the lives of others with kids is yeah, maybe one 534 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 2: of the next is one of the best things that 535 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 2: you can do. And I think that's where there's a 536 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 2: role for everyone to play in this conversation, because again, ultimately, 537 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 2: this isn't just a numbers game. It's not about, oh, 538 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 2: we're at one point nine, how can we get to 539 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 2: two point one and then everything's solved. But it's a 540 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 2: much bigger question of how do we actually support family 541 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,719 Speaker 2: flourishing and human flourishing in the United States? And we 542 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 2: know that national prosperity, community flourishing, and individual happiness is 543 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 2: tied to those meaningful relationships, whether that's biological parenthood, adoptive parenthood, 544 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 2: or spiritual parenthood. In the lives of others. So I 545 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 2: think that's the hopeful message I would turn people to, yeah, 546 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 2: and to take time to just appreciate the adventure, however 547 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 2: chaotic that having kids and being involved in the lives 548 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 2: of kids brings you. 549 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: I love that appreciate the adventure well, Emma Waters from 550 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: the Heritage Foundation, thank you so much for giving us 551 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: your knowledge and really your hopeful message at the end. 552 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: I think is my favorite part, because I think that's 553 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: what people lack a lot these days, is they just 554 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: hear all the bad news. But there is hope and 555 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: it is incredibly meaningful to be a parent if you 556 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: choose to be. Thank you for joining. 557 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 2: Us, absolutely, thank you. 558 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: Well. We talk a lot about health on the show, 559 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: and the truth is family health, demographic health, and cultural health. 560 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: Obviously they're all intertwined. Now, Emma talked about a lot 561 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: of things, and one of the things that she touched 562 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: on is something that is very near and dearing my 563 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: heart is why are our fertility rates low? I'm not 564 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: just talking about why women are having fewer babies. There's 565 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: a lot of reasons whomen are having fewer babies, but 566 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: why are women unable to have babies like they were 567 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: able to twenty thirty forty fifty years ago. The answer is, 568 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: but we don't have a black or white answer to it. 569 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: It's probably multi factoral as well. Is it the microplastics 570 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: in our diet, the ultra processed foods? Is it all 571 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: the hormones that we consume in the meats that we eat. 572 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: You know, it's probably a lot of things. The reality 573 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: is our metabolic system is out of whack because of 574 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: our environmental exposures. RFK Junior with the AJHS, they are 575 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: wanting to look at some of these things. I am 576 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: watching this closely. I am hoping that they actually put 577 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: effort into this because while I think IVF and some 578 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: of the other fertility methods are amazing and for people 579 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: who otherwise wouldn't have been able to have babies, it 580 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: gives them the ability to be parents and that blessing. 581 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: I want to know the root causes of why women 582 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: are having ovarian failure earlier, why are we not able 583 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: to have babies? And unfortunately, I think it's going to 584 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: be a lot of environmental factors, very similar to why 585 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: we're seeing a rise in cancer as well, and it's 586 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: not going to be an easy fix. So that's just 587 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: one piece of the equation. We also need to focus 588 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: again on marriage and just the blessing that is to 589 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: have marriage. We are social creatures, we are meant to 590 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: have life partners. We're not meant to be alone in 591 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: this life. So we have to make sure we get 592 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: to back to the sanctity of marriage. Encourage families to 593 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: have babies if they want them. I'm not saying everyone 594 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: needs to have children. You can have a fulfilling life 595 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: without being a parent. But if you are someone who 596 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: is even contemplating wanting to have babies, I don't want 597 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: the cost your job or anything silly like that to 598 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: get in your way. Because it's a mother myself, I 599 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: can tell you there's no greater blessing in this earth 600 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: than to have children. So if there is something that 601 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: we can do as a society to support those who 602 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: want to have babies, we need to be doing that. 603 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: That needs to be a priority, not just because our 604 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: birth rates are declining and maybe it's going to be 605 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: the end of civilization as we know it, like Elon 606 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: Muss says, but because it's the right thing to do. 607 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to wellness On mass On America's number 608 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: one podcast network, iHeart Follow wellness on Mass with doctor 609 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: Nicole Staffire and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app 610 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and we will see 611 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: you next time.