WEBVTT - In Conversation with Professor Michael Slepian 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:11.280 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:15.440 Danny Shapiro and this is probably the last bonus episode 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:18.840 of Family Secrets before we launch our all new season 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:23.239 on September one. I'm very excited about our lineup and 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:26.280 can't wait to share it with you all. I've been 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:29.080 hearing from so many of you about the personal impact 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:32.280 this podcast has had on your lives, and that couldn't 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.239 mean more to me, which is why I'm especially excited 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:39.519 to introduce you to Professor Michael Slepian, author of the 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:44.480 Secret Life of Secrets. Michael is the Sanford S. Bernstein 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:49.080 Associate Professor of Leadership and Ethics at Columbia Business School. 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.559 His research will be of particular interest to Family Secrets listeners. 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:58.760 How does keeping secrets affect us? Listen in to our conversation. 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:09.720 What led you to your research on the impact of secrets? 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:15.200 I stumbled into this research topic where I wasn't originally 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:18.200 trying to study secrecy, but I was interested in metaphor 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:24.560 and how we use physical experiences to understand more abstract concepts, 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:28.240 and so my earliest studies on secrecy was interested in 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:31.680 this metaphor that people will use for talking about their secrets. 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:34.400 They'll say they feel way down by a secret, or 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.000 that a secret can be heavy or weighty. And so 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:40.960 my original studies just asked, well, if people think about 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:43.520 or if they if they speak about secrets in this way, 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:46.720 does that mean they think about secrets in this way? 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:49.040 Does that mean when the secret is on their mind 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.840 they might feel a sense of burden? And so my 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:57.040 original studies asked participants to answer questions that we knew 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.880 vary with the experience of physical burdens. So when someone 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:03.559 feels encumbered by something that they're carrying, or they feel 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:07.320 fatigued for any reason, they judge distances far as farther 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:10.119 and hills is steeper because it requires more effort to 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:12.480 scale a hill or to walk a distance. And sure enough, 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:15.520 when participants were thinking about secrets that preoccupied their mind, 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.280 they made the same kinds of judgments based all hills 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:23.200 is steeper, They thought distances were farther, they thought tasks 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.480 for would require more effort. That's fascinating. And there's a 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:28.760 moment in your book where you talk about a crackling 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:33.320 fire in a fireplace, except the fireplaces on television and 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:38.079 people experiencing m the warmth a sensation of warms looking 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.520 at a fire on on the television screen. Yes, and 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.440 so this was like that. It's even though there's of 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.440 course not anything physically weighing you down by a secret, 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:51.040 could it still somehow, in some small way feel that way? 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:55.000 And and they're my early studies suggested. Yes. Um, you 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.200 tell a personal story, which is as a young professor, 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.880 it seems recently kind of going on the job market. Um. 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.520 You you go um to Columbia University, which is where 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:11.280 you where you currently do your research and teach. Um 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:15.160 for a job interview, and you're out to dinner with 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:17.799 some of your future colleagues, and your phone rings a 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.120 couple of times and you don't pick it up, but um, 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:22.920 the calls from your father, and this concerns you. So 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.600 when you do call your father back, he asks you 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:29.160 if you're sitting down. Then he goes on to say 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.000 the reason I'm calling is I wanted to let you 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:37.800 know that I'm not biologically able to have children. He 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.480 was telling me that he's not my biological father, and 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:45.600 that I was born by a donor conception, and so 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.600 was my brother five years later, different donor. All of 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:53.520 a sudden, half brother and so as you know, it's 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:57.760 that's really surprising, But it was the secret keeping that 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:03.920 I found even more surprising. Yeah, without knowing it, without 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:08.760 having any consciousness of the fact that your parents had 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:13.960 actually been secret keepers. Um, without the knowledge of that 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.640 that you went into this field. Is that something that 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:20.360 since then you've sort of interrogated for yourself in terms of, 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:22.920 like I know, on this podcast, something that comes up 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:27.720 pretty often is this phrase from the psychoanalyst and writer 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.920 Christopher Bolas, which is the unthought known and what we 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:35.320 what we somehow into it? Or no? But can you know, 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.920 can never sink? Was that present at all for you? 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:43.400 Or was this really coincidence? It never was something that 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.039 I saw coming and it you know, at first I 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:49.919 thought it was just this amazing inquisidence or maybe not amazing, 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.760 certainly a coincidence. But years later, as I got closer 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.480 to this book, and especially as I started writing it, 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.320 I started asking my parents and more questions about what 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:03.520 it was like to keep this secret. And I learned 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:05.680 so much that I was just like, why didn't I 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:09.680 ask these questions years ago? There was just so much 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:11.320 I didn't know about what it was like to keep 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:14.320 that secret. And some of the details around the decisions 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.839 they made and who was involved in the decision, and 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:20.359 what it was like to carry that secret, Especially that 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:24.080 last part. I learned that, you know, their experiences were 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.520 really mapping onto what I would be finding in my research. 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:28.640 At the same time that they said it wasn't hard 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:31.719 to conceal in conversation, it was in fact quite easy, 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:35.919 but sometimes they had to revisit that decision and in 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:39.000 their own thoughts, and that's what was difficult. What year 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.240 was it when your father called you and told you this. 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:46.360 This was two thousand, so that was I mean, yes, 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.480 there was DNA testing out there and people were discovering things, 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:54.680 but it was really actually pretty early. Um, parents weren't 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.960 yet thinking, oh, I better tell my children because they're 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:01.039 going to find out that wasn't happening. It's certainly happening 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.840 now ten years later. You're right. It's It's amazing how 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:07.480 big of a difference there is across those years. So 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:12.000 your parents were unusual for the time, even a decade 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:16.200 ago UM, in making the decision to tell you and 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.680 your brother. And so you ask your your mom, you know, 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:22.839 when did you decide to tell me? And this made 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.679 me laugh. She says, when did your your first paper 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:31.400 on secrecy come out? I couldn't believe it. I just 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:34.880 never so, so there are they are more deeply related 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:36.920 at in that sense, and that I couldn't My own 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.760 research was changing her thinking about whether to continue keeping 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.560 the secret. Your mother and father were making a choice 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.640 that really was informed by the research that that that 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:49.560 you've been doing and what they were understanding about that. 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.919 I mean, I think that's fascinating. Yeah, me too, And 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.320 something that came out much later. I just you know, 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:00.760 even even once a secret like this is out, it's 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:02.480 not the kind of thing you talked about a lot. 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:05.599 And so there was still so much for me to 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:10.840 learn about about this experience with them years later. So 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:12.880 one of the things that you write in your book 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:17.080 is we must define secrecy not as something we do, 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:21.800 but as an intention. Um, I intend for people not 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:24.840 to learn this thing. Uh. And that was I mean. 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.720 The distinctions that you make in the sort of the 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:33.240 ways in which you um parce secret keeping, UM, we're 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.360 really interesting to me. You know. The the tagline for 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:38.720 this show is the secrets that are kept from us, 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:41.600 the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:46.360 keep from ourselves and your focus, it seems in your 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:51.680 research is the secrets we keep. Would you say that's accurate? Yeah, 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:58.600 I think so. So this intention, what have you learned 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:04.760 about keeping secrets, does to us beyond the sort of 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.520 the weight or that you were describing the you know, 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.680 the making the hills you know look steeper and the 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:15.800 load heavier. So what's useful about this definition of secrecy 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:19.960 has an intention rather than an action is it allows 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.120 for the reality, which is that as soon as you 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.680 intend to keep a secret, you have a secret. I 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:29.600 think probably the most prototypical example as someone cheese on 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.200 their partner and immediately they have a secret, well before 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.360 they ever have to have a conversation with their partner 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:37.520 where they might be thinking about it. And so the 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:39.679 moment you intend to keep a secret is when it 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:44.400 can start affecting you, and your mind is going to 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:47.160 return to this intention time and time again. That's actually 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:49.640 what it means to have an intention in any domain. 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.160 You want to be easily reminded of it, and sometimes 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:55.400 you might have to act on that intention. But it 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.360 turns out that's pretty rare. The typical secret is not 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:01.800 one that you frequently need hiding conversation is not one 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:05.320 that people ask you questions about very often, and so 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.800 allow the action that's happening in your own head, on 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:12.240 your own time. Where the more people simply think about 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.960 their secrets outside of situations when they need to conceal them, 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:18.400 the more ashamed they can feel of those secrets, the 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:21.520 more isolated they can feel with those secrets, the more 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:25.160 uncertain about whether they're doing the right thing, and so 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.920 each of those experiences are associated with lower health and 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:31.520 well being. That's so interesting. One of the things that 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:34.400 you write is that people, all people have secrets, but 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:38.800 not all secrets are alike. Um, some secrets don't hurt 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.679 others do. You did this research in which you identified 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.600 thirty eight of the most common secrets by surveying a 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:51.520 couple of thousand people for that particular survey in the 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.520 United States, asking them, what what is a secret you're 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:58.800 currently keeping? What did you discover about within those thirty 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:02.319 eight most common secrets, the ones that that hurt us 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:04.880 and and the ones that don't. And so this this 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:08.520 turns out to be another important aspect of this research. 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:10.800 Whereas the research that came before Mind would often study 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.319 sort of one secret at a time, UM, often when 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.280 they fabricated in the lab environment. And the problem with 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:19.040 that kind of design is that I can't get you 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:23.360 very far because people have multiple secrets and and the 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:25.600 question is which other ones that hurt you? And to 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:27.679 ask that question, you have to look at the whole 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:31.160 set of secrets that people have. And so essentially there's 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.240 three different answers to this question. UM. The secrets that 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:37.520 we feel are really immoral, those are the secrets we 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.600 frequently think about and feel ashamed about. The secrets that 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:44.480 feel really personal, Those are secrets that we frequently think 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:48.120 about and feel isolated with. And secrets that are not 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:51.360 based in logic or reason or goals or aspirations, but 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:55.000 are more feeling based. Those are the secrets we feel 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:57.880 we don't have much insight into. And again we think 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:01.520 about those secrets frequently. And and so it's not a 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:04.840 specific kind of secret. It's not, you know, one of 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.040 the secrets from the list that's especially harmful, but it's 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:11.920 the ways in which you experience these common secrets. And 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.839 the more you feel that it's a moral, the more 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.040 you feel that it's personal, or the more you feel 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:19.440 like you don't have insight into it, the more that 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:22.040 that secret is going to be harming your well being. 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:28.360 I wonder whether in all three of those um ways 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:31.120 of of of keeping secrets that are that are harmful, 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:36.600 whether there's a commonality among them, which would be a 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.800 sense that no one would understand. I mean, one of 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:43.120 the themes that occurs again and again on this podcast 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:48.520 is where there's secrecy, there's shame, you know, thrumbing beneath 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:51.959 it so often, or if not shame, a sense of 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.640 isolation or you know, nobody would understand this. If if 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.720 I said this out loud, I would be either you know, 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.560 wild or mocked or just looked at blankly. The research 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:08.439 shows that these experiences of confiding a secret or revealing 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:12.079 a secret often go much better than we anticipate them too. 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.080 And you're right, people thinks people won't understand or they'll 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.599 be quick to judge or think worst of them. But 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:22.320 when we choose to be alone with something, when we 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:24.760 when the only venue to work on something is your 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.200 own mind, you often develop pretty unhealthy ways of thinking 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.240 about that thing that isn't curbed by the reality checks 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:34.480 that come out in the real world. And so that 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:39.160 is the reason people hold back, but it's quite often miscalibrated. 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:42.600 The average experience someone has with revealing a secret to 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.079 another person is that they felt something good came out 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:47.520 of it, They felt like they got help. And so 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.640 of course we have the sports case scenario in mind, 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:56.200 but it's really really really rare. Yeah, And that's that's 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:57.880 really good to hear, and I think it's really good 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:02.880 for all Family Secrets listeners to hear because, um, that 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.720 also is what gets reiterated again and again and again 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:11.480 over the course of seven seasons and seventy interviews. The feeling, 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:18.680 ultimately in each case is feeling somewhat liberated or freed, 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:23.360 you know, from this haunting. So you tell a story 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.680 in the book about a woman named Melody Casson. It 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:32.480 was so astonishing really and illuminating about because it's not 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:34.800 always you know, people are afraid of being quote unquote 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:39.120 found out, but that doesn't actually seem to be the 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.120 most damaging part of secret keeping. Yeah. So this is 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:47.640 a story about someone who at the age of fifteen 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:52.560 had had had a child, and that child died at 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:56.520 the age of fifteen days and what had happened or 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.560 what was reported to the police at the time was 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:05.240 that she accidentally rolled onto her son and suffocated him 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:09.760 as a result. Fifty two years after this happened, when 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:14.720 there was a police person over on another unrelated issue, 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:17.240 she all of a sudden confessed to the police officer 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.240 and said that she needed to correct the record and 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.400 said that I've been living with the spain all my life, 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:31.800 and what happened fifty two years prior is that it 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.760 was this. You know, she has a newborn baby, her 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:38.200 father is unwell, her mother's in the hospital recovering from 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:42.000 an operation. She has a sister home, and her sister's Beyonce, 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:44.480 and they need to get up early for work, and 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:48.040 so it's this really delicate situation at home where you know, 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:53.880 attentions are attentions are rising, and her baby, her newborn son, 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.320 is just crying and crying and crying, you know, as 0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:00.920 newborns will do. And she was just trying to get 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:05.960 it to be quiet. And she thought if she could 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.160 just muffle its voice, his voice for a second, the 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.320 sobbing would stop, and so she held a cushion over 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:16.520 his face and and the crying did stop. And then 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:20.960 when she removed the cushion, she immediately could tell what 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:27.040 she did, and you know, she just froze and and 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.400 so it was reported as an accident, and in some 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:34.880 ways that is pretty close to the truth. But this 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:37.920 was something that was on her mind for the next 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.840 fifty two years, to the extent that she felt like 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.680 she finally needed to come clean, even though this could 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.000 put her at risk for for jail time. Um, that's 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:51.680 not what happened, but it could have happened. And so 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:54.600 when you think about a story like that, you think, well, 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:57.520 why would someone put themselves at this legal peril just 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:02.120 to get a secret off their chest? And it reminds 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:05.560 you that we want to talk about our secrets. The 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.000 reason she wanted to do this is she couldn't. She 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.760 didn't want to be alone with us anymore. Her Her 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.320 worry wasn't about one day being found out, but that 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:17.520 nobody would ever find out. And she just didn't want 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.280 to be alone with it anymore. And so she revealed it. 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:24.320 Even when it's something really big, even though there's this 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.720 huge risk she took for her was worth it. You know, 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.480 we don't want to be alone, We don't want to 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:32.920 be alone with our thoughts, and so we want to 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:36.360 share these things, even the difficult things. The judge that 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:38.360 you know, you've been living with this all your life, 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.560 and you you know, you really had this lifelong guilt 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:44.880 and nothing I can do, you can never change that. 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:48.600 And you've essentially already have served your time and suffering 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.440 for this alone with this. And so she didn't give 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:56.800 out jail time, just a suspended sentence. And so it's 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.720 so hard to imagine being alone with this thing for 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.760 decades and decades and just not wanting to do it anymore. 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.080 I think that's one of the things that I found 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.880 most poignant about. Um. Sort of that aspect of your 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:17.240 research is that it seems it's such a human need, 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:22.919 longing desire to be known. And Um, there's this quote 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:26.800 from from DW. Winnicott that I sometimes share and have 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.600 written about, which is it is a joy to be hidden, 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:35.199 but disaster not to be found. And I just, you know, 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:39.360 thinking about being known, and it's inverse. You know, what 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:43.440 it is to suffer the the the isolation of knowing 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:47.840 that that you know something that no one else knows. Um. 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:52.119 I mean, this is obviously a huge secret. Um. I 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.600 mean in terms of what it's you know, what its content, is, 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:59.280 But is that something that you've seen um elsewhere in 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.480 your research. Is that feeling of the burden just getting 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.560 heavier and heavier and heavier until it's just not possible 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.480 to keep bearing it. So we're at the forefront of 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:11.360 what we know on this topic here on the relationship 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.720 between time and secrecy, and I think you're right that 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:18.720 certain secrets get heavier over time. They think there's a 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.640 different set of secrets that get later over time as 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.200 it becomes less relevant to our life. And then I 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:28.120 think there's secrets that can sort of reappear as as 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:30.160 something in your life changes and all of a sudden 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:35.040 it's burdensome again. That's so interesting, the idea of secrets 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:39.080 reappearing and becoming burdensome again. Does that have to do 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.920 like the pattern of something coming up that reminds one 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:45.439 of it, or you know, sort of brings it up 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:48.480 again or makes it relevant again. Yeah, I think there's that. 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:50.920 I think you know, it wasn't relevant for years and years, 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:52.959 and all of a sudden it's relevant again. For some reason. 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:58.240 I think entering into a new serious relationship or romantic 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:04.480 relationship also has this flavor of reactivating secrets where when 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:07.560 you're in this new relationship, we're like, Okay, here are 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:09.960 the things I need to tell them when the time 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:14.680 is right. And and there's that sort of slowly revealing 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.520 your cards as you get closer. Um, But it could 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.359 be things that haven't been in your mind and so long. 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.280 What about the kinds of secrets that grow lighter over time. 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:28.840 That's really interesting. I think some secrets that, even though 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:32.080 they're huge at the time, they just loose their relevance 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.680 um as life moves on and as you change, and 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:38.639 you know, maybe your new situation is you don't know 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:41.120 any of the people involved anymore. You know, you don't 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.320 live in this place anymore. Your life is totally different now, 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.679 whether it's because you have a totally different career or 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:50.240 you know, you have a family, whatever it is. I 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:54.800 think as like changes, so do we. And and some 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:58.840 really big secrets from our past I don't feel as 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:02.480 relevant anymore, and I they kind of like dormant until 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:06.160 for some reason you get reminded of them again. We'll 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:13.520 be right back. Let's talk a little bit about the 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:17.959 distinction between secrecy and privacy. You know, we we use 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:21.840 the expression, you know, I'm a very private person, or 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:25.240 you know, some people are not particularly private in the 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:29.920 sense of feeling comfortable sharing all sorts of detail about 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:34.800 their lives, whether it's their histories, or their financial lives, 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.879 or their work lives, or their family life, whatever it 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:41.679 might be. But talk about the distinction between holding a 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:46.480 secret and just feeling private. This is where that definition 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.119 comes in handy again. And so there's all kinds of 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:54.080 things about us that other people don't know that aren't secrets. 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:56.240 You know, it's just something that you would be willing 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:58.040 to discuss, but it just has yet to come up, 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:01.000 or it's something you would be like discussed, but only 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.400 if the setting was right, only if you felt comfortable 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:06.040 in that moment, because you know there weren't other people 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.560 who could overhear, or maybe you know you need to 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:13.119 be close to someone to discuss certain intimate facts. I think, um, 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:17.320 you know, discussions around sex and discussions around money are 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:21.080 two good examples of things that we're willing to talk about, 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:24.080 but only with the right person. But if there's a 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:28.800 specific experience, specific sexual experience, or specific financial decision that 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.240 you don't want people to know about, and if you 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:33.800 ever got asked about it, you would dodge the question 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.320 or not reveal the true answer. The reason people don't 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:38.760 know this thing about you is you're specifically intending to 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:42.920 hold it back. Then it's a secret. And so when 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:45.520 it's private, it's something you would be willing to discuss, 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:48.320 but only if the setting is right. You also write 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:53.200 about positive secrets. Have interviewed other people on the show 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:57.479 who um would would say, there's no such thing as 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:00.719 an okay secret. Um, you know, all see goods are toxic. 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:04.720 What would be examples of positive secrets and their outcome? 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:09.040 So positive secrets are this really special case and they 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:11.440 really sort of change the rules a little bit, and 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.320 and they're often good for us. And there's really two kinds. 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:20.600 There's the big kind is things like marriage proposals. A 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:22.880 couple has been trying to get pregnant and then they 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:26.080 do um some big surprise party or some big gift 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:31.880 where a lot of these experiences people purposely keep secret 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:35.920 for some period of time so that they have control 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:38.480 over how the information comes out, and often in a 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:44.120 very exciting or celebratory way. And those secrets operate very 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:48.880 differently because we feel good about them, but also we 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:51.280 really feel in control over them. Because we have that 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:53.760 exploration data when the secret is going to be revealed, 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.679 and we carefully have chosen the timing and the manner 0:22:56.720 --> 0:22:59.440 and who will learn it, And so we feel really 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:02.840 in control over our positive secrets, which turns out to 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:05.919 be a really healthy feeling. We better cope with life's 0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:09.560 challenges when we feel in control. There's another kind of 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:12.600 positive secret that's I think it's a bit rare where 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:16.360 there isn't an intense to reveal it. And so these 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:19.240 are things like secret hobbies that you enjoy but think 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:24.240 people won't get um you know, whether that's collecting stamps 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:28.040 or whether that's watching soap operations, or you know, for 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:31.600 a lot of people it's actually um. Meditating is another 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:33.879 good example where it's it's people are like, this is 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:36.560 this thing I enjoy. I know the people around me 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:39.359 won't get it, and rather than having to deal with 0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:42.600 that and have the conversation about that, I feel at 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:46.520 peace just enjoying this thing by myself. That's interesting though, 0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:50.160 because what you're describing there is people around me won't 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:53.760 get it. Is there that little bit of the other 0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:56.480 kind of secret keeping there, which is people people won't 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:58.600 get it? So I'm not gonna, not going to share it. 0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:03.000 That's exactly right. Yeah, So positive secrets you plan to reveal, 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:05.840 those are clearly like this totally different set of secrets 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:08.920 that just operates so differently. But this other kind of 0:24:09.000 --> 0:24:12.480 positive secret, it starts blurring the boundaries. You're totally right 0:24:13.119 --> 0:24:16.560