1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro and this is probably the last bonus episode 3 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: of Family Secrets before we launch our all new season 4 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: on September one. I'm very excited about our lineup and 5 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: can't wait to share it with you all. I've been 6 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: hearing from so many of you about the personal impact 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: this podcast has had on your lives, and that couldn't 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: mean more to me, which is why I'm especially excited 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: to introduce you to Professor Michael Slepian, author of the 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 1: Secret Life of Secrets. Michael is the Sanford S. Bernstein 11 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: Associate Professor of Leadership and Ethics at Columbia Business School. 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: His research will be of particular interest to Family Secrets listeners. 13 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: How does keeping secrets affect us? Listen in to our conversation. 14 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: What led you to your research on the impact of secrets? 15 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: I stumbled into this research topic where I wasn't originally 16 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: trying to study secrecy, but I was interested in metaphor 17 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: and how we use physical experiences to understand more abstract concepts, 18 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: and so my earliest studies on secrecy was interested in 19 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: this metaphor that people will use for talking about their secrets. 20 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: They'll say they feel way down by a secret, or 21 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: that a secret can be heavy or weighty. And so 22 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: my original studies just asked, well, if people think about 23 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: or if they if they speak about secrets in this way, 24 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: does that mean they think about secrets in this way? 25 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: Does that mean when the secret is on their mind 26 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: they might feel a sense of burden? And so my 27 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: original studies asked participants to answer questions that we knew 28 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: vary with the experience of physical burdens. So when someone 29 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,559 Speaker 1: feels encumbered by something that they're carrying, or they feel 30 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: fatigued for any reason, they judge distances far as farther 31 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,119 Speaker 1: and hills is steeper because it requires more effort to 32 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: scale a hill or to walk a distance. And sure enough, 33 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: when participants were thinking about secrets that preoccupied their mind, 34 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: they made the same kinds of judgments based all hills 35 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: is steeper, They thought distances were farther, they thought tasks 36 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: for would require more effort. That's fascinating. And there's a 37 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: moment in your book where you talk about a crackling 38 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: fire in a fireplace, except the fireplaces on television and 39 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: people experiencing m the warmth a sensation of warms looking 40 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: at a fire on on the television screen. Yes, and 41 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: so this was like that. It's even though there's of 42 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: course not anything physically weighing you down by a secret, 43 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: could it still somehow, in some small way feel that way? 44 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: And and they're my early studies suggested. Yes. Um, you 45 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: tell a personal story, which is as a young professor, 46 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: it seems recently kind of going on the job market. Um. 47 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: You you go um to Columbia University, which is where 48 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: you where you currently do your research and teach. Um 49 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: for a job interview, and you're out to dinner with 50 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: some of your future colleagues, and your phone rings a 51 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: couple of times and you don't pick it up, but um, 52 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: the calls from your father, and this concerns you. So 53 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: when you do call your father back, he asks you 54 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: if you're sitting down. Then he goes on to say 55 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: the reason I'm calling is I wanted to let you 56 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: know that I'm not biologically able to have children. He 57 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: was telling me that he's not my biological father, and 58 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: that I was born by a donor conception, and so 59 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: was my brother five years later, different donor. All of 60 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: a sudden, half brother and so as you know, it's 61 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: that's really surprising, But it was the secret keeping that 62 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: I found even more surprising. Yeah, without knowing it, without 63 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: having any consciousness of the fact that your parents had 64 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: actually been secret keepers. Um, without the knowledge of that 65 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: that you went into this field. Is that something that 66 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: since then you've sort of interrogated for yourself in terms of, 67 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: like I know, on this podcast, something that comes up 68 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: pretty often is this phrase from the psychoanalyst and writer 69 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: Christopher Bolas, which is the unthought known and what we 70 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: what we somehow into it? Or no? But can you know, 71 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: can never sink? Was that present at all for you? 72 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: Or was this really coincidence? It never was something that 73 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: I saw coming and it you know, at first I 74 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: thought it was just this amazing inquisidence or maybe not amazing, 75 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: certainly a coincidence. But years later, as I got closer 76 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: to this book, and especially as I started writing it, 77 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: I started asking my parents and more questions about what 78 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: it was like to keep this secret. And I learned 79 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: so much that I was just like, why didn't I 80 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: ask these questions years ago? There was just so much 81 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: I didn't know about what it was like to keep 82 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: that secret. And some of the details around the decisions 83 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: they made and who was involved in the decision, and 84 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: what it was like to carry that secret, Especially that 85 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: last part. I learned that, you know, their experiences were 86 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: really mapping onto what I would be finding in my research. 87 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: At the same time that they said it wasn't hard 88 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: to conceal in conversation, it was in fact quite easy, 89 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: but sometimes they had to revisit that decision and in 90 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: their own thoughts, and that's what was difficult. What year 91 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: was it when your father called you and told you this. 92 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: This was two thousand, so that was I mean, yes, 93 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: there was DNA testing out there and people were discovering things, 94 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: but it was really actually pretty early. Um, parents weren't 95 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: yet thinking, oh, I better tell my children because they're 96 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: going to find out that wasn't happening. It's certainly happening 97 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: now ten years later. You're right. It's It's amazing how 98 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: big of a difference there is across those years. So 99 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: your parents were unusual for the time, even a decade 100 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: ago UM, in making the decision to tell you and 101 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: your brother. And so you ask your your mom, you know, 102 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: when did you decide to tell me? And this made 103 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,679 Speaker 1: me laugh. She says, when did your your first paper 104 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: on secrecy come out? I couldn't believe it. I just 105 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: never so, so there are they are more deeply related 106 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: at in that sense, and that I couldn't My own 107 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: research was changing her thinking about whether to continue keeping 108 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: the secret. Your mother and father were making a choice 109 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: that really was informed by the research that that that 110 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: you've been doing and what they were understanding about that. 111 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's fascinating. Yeah, me too, And 112 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: something that came out much later. I just you know, 113 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: even even once a secret like this is out, it's 114 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: not the kind of thing you talked about a lot. 115 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: And so there was still so much for me to 116 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: learn about about this experience with them years later. So 117 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: one of the things that you write in your book 118 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: is we must define secrecy not as something we do, 119 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: but as an intention. Um, I intend for people not 120 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: to learn this thing. Uh. And that was I mean. 121 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: The distinctions that you make in the sort of the 122 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: ways in which you um parce secret keeping, UM, we're 123 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: really interesting to me. You know. The the tagline for 124 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: this show is the secrets that are kept from us, 125 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 126 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: keep from ourselves and your focus, it seems in your 127 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: research is the secrets we keep. Would you say that's accurate? Yeah, 128 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: I think so. So this intention, what have you learned 129 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: about keeping secrets, does to us beyond the sort of 130 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: the weight or that you were describing the you know, 131 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: the making the hills you know look steeper and the 132 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: load heavier. So what's useful about this definition of secrecy 133 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: has an intention rather than an action is it allows 134 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: for the reality, which is that as soon as you 135 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: intend to keep a secret, you have a secret. I 136 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: think probably the most prototypical example as someone cheese on 137 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: their partner and immediately they have a secret, well before 138 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: they ever have to have a conversation with their partner 139 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: where they might be thinking about it. And so the 140 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: moment you intend to keep a secret is when it 141 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: can start affecting you, and your mind is going to 142 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: return to this intention time and time again. That's actually 143 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: what it means to have an intention in any domain. 144 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: You want to be easily reminded of it, and sometimes 145 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: you might have to act on that intention. But it 146 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: turns out that's pretty rare. The typical secret is not 147 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: one that you frequently need hiding conversation is not one 148 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: that people ask you questions about very often, and so 149 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: allow the action that's happening in your own head, on 150 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: your own time. Where the more people simply think about 151 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: their secrets outside of situations when they need to conceal them, 152 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: the more ashamed they can feel of those secrets, the 153 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: more isolated they can feel with those secrets, the more 154 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: uncertain about whether they're doing the right thing, and so 155 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: each of those experiences are associated with lower health and 156 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: well being. That's so interesting. One of the things that 157 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: you write is that people, all people have secrets, but 158 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: not all secrets are alike. Um, some secrets don't hurt 159 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 1: others do. You did this research in which you identified 160 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: thirty eight of the most common secrets by surveying a 161 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: couple of thousand people for that particular survey in the 162 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: United States, asking them, what what is a secret you're 163 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: currently keeping? What did you discover about within those thirty 164 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: eight most common secrets, the ones that that hurt us 165 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: and and the ones that don't. And so this this 166 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: turns out to be another important aspect of this research. 167 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: Whereas the research that came before Mind would often study 168 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 1: sort of one secret at a time, UM, often when 169 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: they fabricated in the lab environment. And the problem with 170 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: that kind of design is that I can't get you 171 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: very far because people have multiple secrets and and the 172 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: question is which other ones that hurt you? And to 173 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: ask that question, you have to look at the whole 174 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: set of secrets that people have. And so essentially there's 175 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: three different answers to this question. UM. The secrets that 176 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: we feel are really immoral, those are the secrets we 177 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: frequently think about and feel ashamed about. The secrets that 178 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: feel really personal, Those are secrets that we frequently think 179 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: about and feel isolated with. And secrets that are not 180 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: based in logic or reason or goals or aspirations, but 181 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: are more feeling based. Those are the secrets we feel 182 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: we don't have much insight into. And again we think 183 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: about those secrets frequently. And and so it's not a 184 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: specific kind of secret. It's not, you know, one of 185 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: the secrets from the list that's especially harmful, but it's 186 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: the ways in which you experience these common secrets. And 187 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 1: the more you feel that it's a moral, the more 188 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: you feel that it's personal, or the more you feel 189 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: like you don't have insight into it, the more that 190 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: that secret is going to be harming your well being. 191 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: I wonder whether in all three of those um ways 192 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: of of of keeping secrets that are that are harmful, 193 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: whether there's a commonality among them, which would be a 194 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: sense that no one would understand. I mean, one of 195 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: the themes that occurs again and again on this podcast 196 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: is where there's secrecy, there's shame, you know, thrumbing beneath 197 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: it so often, or if not shame, a sense of 198 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: isolation or you know, nobody would understand this. If if 199 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: I said this out loud, I would be either you know, 200 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: wild or mocked or just looked at blankly. The research 201 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: shows that these experiences of confiding a secret or revealing 202 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: a secret often go much better than we anticipate them too. 203 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: And you're right, people thinks people won't understand or they'll 204 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,599 Speaker 1: be quick to judge or think worst of them. But 205 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: when we choose to be alone with something, when we 206 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: when the only venue to work on something is your 207 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: own mind, you often develop pretty unhealthy ways of thinking 208 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: about that thing that isn't curbed by the reality checks 209 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: that come out in the real world. And so that 210 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: is the reason people hold back, but it's quite often miscalibrated. 211 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: The average experience someone has with revealing a secret to 212 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,079 Speaker 1: another person is that they felt something good came out 213 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: of it, They felt like they got help. And so 214 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: of course we have the sports case scenario in mind, 215 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: but it's really really really rare. Yeah, And that's that's 216 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: really good to hear, and I think it's really good 217 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: for all Family Secrets listeners to hear because, um, that 218 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: also is what gets reiterated again and again and again 219 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: over the course of seven seasons and seventy interviews. The feeling, 220 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: ultimately in each case is feeling somewhat liberated or freed, 221 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: you know, from this haunting. So you tell a story 222 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: in the book about a woman named Melody Casson. It 223 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: was so astonishing really and illuminating about because it's not 224 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: always you know, people are afraid of being quote unquote 225 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: found out, but that doesn't actually seem to be the 226 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: most damaging part of secret keeping. Yeah. So this is 227 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: a story about someone who at the age of fifteen 228 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: had had had a child, and that child died at 229 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: the age of fifteen days and what had happened or 230 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: what was reported to the police at the time was 231 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: that she accidentally rolled onto her son and suffocated him 232 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: as a result. Fifty two years after this happened, when 233 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: there was a police person over on another unrelated issue, 234 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: she all of a sudden confessed to the police officer 235 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: and said that she needed to correct the record and 236 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: said that I've been living with the spain all my life, 237 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: and what happened fifty two years prior is that it 238 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: was this. You know, she has a newborn baby, her 239 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: father is unwell, her mother's in the hospital recovering from 240 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: an operation. She has a sister home, and her sister's Beyonce, 241 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: and they need to get up early for work, and 242 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: so it's this really delicate situation at home where you know, 243 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: attentions are attentions are rising, and her baby, her newborn son, 244 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: is just crying and crying and crying, you know, as 245 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: newborns will do. And she was just trying to get 246 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: it to be quiet. And she thought if she could 247 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: just muffle its voice, his voice for a second, the 248 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: sobbing would stop, and so she held a cushion over 249 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: his face and and the crying did stop. And then 250 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: when she removed the cushion, she immediately could tell what 251 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: she did, and you know, she just froze and and 252 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: so it was reported as an accident, and in some 253 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: ways that is pretty close to the truth. But this 254 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: was something that was on her mind for the next 255 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: fifty two years, to the extent that she felt like 256 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: she finally needed to come clean, even though this could 257 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: put her at risk for for jail time. Um, that's 258 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: not what happened, but it could have happened. And so 259 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: when you think about a story like that, you think, well, 260 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: why would someone put themselves at this legal peril just 261 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: to get a secret off their chest? And it reminds 262 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: you that we want to talk about our secrets. The 263 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: reason she wanted to do this is she couldn't. She 264 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: didn't want to be alone with us anymore. Her Her 265 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: worry wasn't about one day being found out, but that 266 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: nobody would ever find out. And she just didn't want 267 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: to be alone with it anymore. And so she revealed it. 268 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: Even when it's something really big, even though there's this 269 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: huge risk she took for her was worth it. You know, 270 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: we don't want to be alone, We don't want to 271 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: be alone with our thoughts, and so we want to 272 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: share these things, even the difficult things. The judge that 273 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: you know, you've been living with this all your life, 274 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: and you you know, you really had this lifelong guilt 275 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: and nothing I can do, you can never change that. 276 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: And you've essentially already have served your time and suffering 277 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: for this alone with this. And so she didn't give 278 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: out jail time, just a suspended sentence. And so it's 279 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: so hard to imagine being alone with this thing for 280 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: decades and decades and just not wanting to do it anymore. 281 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: I think that's one of the things that I found 282 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: most poignant about. Um. Sort of that aspect of your 283 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: research is that it seems it's such a human need, 284 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: longing desire to be known. And Um, there's this quote 285 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: from from DW. Winnicott that I sometimes share and have 286 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: written about, which is it is a joy to be hidden, 287 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: but disaster not to be found. And I just, you know, 288 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 1: thinking about being known, and it's inverse. You know, what 289 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: it is to suffer the the the isolation of knowing 290 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: that that you know something that no one else knows. Um. 291 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: I mean, this is obviously a huge secret. Um. I 292 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: mean in terms of what it's you know, what its content, is, 293 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: But is that something that you've seen um elsewhere in 294 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: your research. Is that feeling of the burden just getting 295 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: heavier and heavier and heavier until it's just not possible 296 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: to keep bearing it. So we're at the forefront of 297 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: what we know on this topic here on the relationship 298 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: between time and secrecy, and I think you're right that 299 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: certain secrets get heavier over time. They think there's a 300 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 1: different set of secrets that get later over time as 301 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: it becomes less relevant to our life. And then I 302 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 1: think there's secrets that can sort of reappear as as 303 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: something in your life changes and all of a sudden 304 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: it's burdensome again. That's so interesting, the idea of secrets 305 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: reappearing and becoming burdensome again. Does that have to do 306 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: like the pattern of something coming up that reminds one 307 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 1: of it, or you know, sort of brings it up 308 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: again or makes it relevant again. Yeah, I think there's that. 309 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: I think you know, it wasn't relevant for years and years, 310 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:52,959 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden it's relevant again. For some reason. 311 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: I think entering into a new serious relationship or romantic 312 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: relationship also has this flavor of reactivating secrets where when 313 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: you're in this new relationship, we're like, Okay, here are 314 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: the things I need to tell them when the time 315 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: is right. And and there's that sort of slowly revealing 316 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: your cards as you get closer. Um, But it could 317 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: be things that haven't been in your mind and so long. 318 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: What about the kinds of secrets that grow lighter over time. 319 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I think some secrets that, even though 320 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: they're huge at the time, they just loose their relevance 321 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: um as life moves on and as you change, and 322 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: you know, maybe your new situation is you don't know 323 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 1: any of the people involved anymore. You know, you don't 324 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: live in this place anymore. Your life is totally different now, 325 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 1: whether it's because you have a totally different career or 326 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: you know, you have a family, whatever it is. I 327 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: think as like changes, so do we. And and some 328 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: really big secrets from our past I don't feel as 329 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: relevant anymore, and I they kind of like dormant until 330 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: for some reason you get reminded of them again. We'll 331 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: be right back. Let's talk a little bit about the 332 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,959 Speaker 1: distinction between secrecy and privacy. You know, we we use 333 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: the expression, you know, I'm a very private person, or 334 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: you know, some people are not particularly private in the 335 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: sense of feeling comfortable sharing all sorts of detail about 336 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: their lives, whether it's their histories, or their financial lives, 337 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: or their work lives, or their family life, whatever it 338 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: might be. But talk about the distinction between holding a 339 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: secret and just feeling private. This is where that definition 340 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: comes in handy again. And so there's all kinds of 341 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: things about us that other people don't know that aren't secrets. 342 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: You know, it's just something that you would be willing 343 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: to discuss, but it just has yet to come up, 344 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: or it's something you would be like discussed, but only 345 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 1: if the setting was right, only if you felt comfortable 346 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: in that moment, because you know there weren't other people 347 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: who could overhear, or maybe you know you need to 348 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: be close to someone to discuss certain intimate facts. I think, um, 349 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: you know, discussions around sex and discussions around money are 350 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: two good examples of things that we're willing to talk about, 351 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: but only with the right person. But if there's a 352 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: specific experience, specific sexual experience, or specific financial decision that 353 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: you don't want people to know about, and if you 354 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: ever got asked about it, you would dodge the question 355 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: or not reveal the true answer. The reason people don't 356 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: know this thing about you is you're specifically intending to 357 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: hold it back. Then it's a secret. And so when 358 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: it's private, it's something you would be willing to discuss, 359 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: but only if the setting is right. You also write 360 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: about positive secrets. Have interviewed other people on the show 361 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,479 Speaker 1: who um would would say, there's no such thing as 362 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 1: an okay secret. Um, you know, all see goods are toxic. 363 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: What would be examples of positive secrets and their outcome? 364 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: So positive secrets are this really special case and they 365 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: really sort of change the rules a little bit, and 366 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: and they're often good for us. And there's really two kinds. 367 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: There's the big kind is things like marriage proposals. A 368 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 1: couple has been trying to get pregnant and then they 369 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: do um some big surprise party or some big gift 370 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: where a lot of these experiences people purposely keep secret 371 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: for some period of time so that they have control 372 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: over how the information comes out, and often in a 373 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: very exciting or celebratory way. And those secrets operate very 374 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 1: differently because we feel good about them, but also we 375 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: really feel in control over them. Because we have that 376 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: exploration data when the secret is going to be revealed, 377 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: and we carefully have chosen the timing and the manner 378 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: and who will learn it, And so we feel really 379 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: in control over our positive secrets, which turns out to 380 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: be a really healthy feeling. We better cope with life's 381 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: challenges when we feel in control. There's another kind of 382 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: positive secret that's I think it's a bit rare where 383 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,360 Speaker 1: there isn't an intense to reveal it. And so these 384 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: are things like secret hobbies that you enjoy but think 385 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: people won't get um you know, whether that's collecting stamps 386 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: or whether that's watching soap operations, or you know, for 387 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people it's actually um. Meditating is another 388 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: good example where it's it's people are like, this is 389 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: this thing I enjoy. I know the people around me 390 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: won't get it, and rather than having to deal with 391 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: that and have the conversation about that, I feel at 392 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: peace just enjoying this thing by myself. That's interesting though, 393 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: because what you're describing there is people around me won't 394 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: get it. Is there that little bit of the other 395 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: kind of secret keeping there, which is people people won't 396 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: get it? So I'm not gonna, not going to share it. 397 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Yeah, So positive secrets you plan to reveal, 398 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: those are clearly like this totally different set of secrets 399 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: that just operates so differently. But this other kind of 400 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: positive secret, it starts blurring the boundaries. You're totally right 401 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: where it does start. The motivations do start seeming the thing. 402 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: Even still, even when you're fearing a negative reaction, this 403 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: is something you enjoy doing, it still seems to operate differently. 404 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: And so I think there's a lesson there to try 405 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: to apply to our more prototypically negative secrets, which is, 406 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: you know, how can we feel okay with them? How 407 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: can we feel ready to confront them? Are are ready 408 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: to talk about them? Even And when it goes back 409 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: to the more difficult, you know, to to process secrets 410 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: or the ones that are more damaging to us, I'm 411 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: wondering how that process unfold in order to reach a 412 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 1: point of readiness I'm comfortable sharing this, or I'm comfortable 413 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: enough I'm not afraid enough to share this with a 414 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: particular person or you know, family member or spouse or 415 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: a partner or whatever it is that has to be 416 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: preceded by it would seem having reached a place of 417 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: maybe this isn't as bad as I've been thinking for 418 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: all these years, or or I'm a little bit less ashamed, 419 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: or I've worked on this enough to want to see 420 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,719 Speaker 1: the benefits of revealing it. Yeah, so it's so right 421 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: finding some kind of peace with it, some kind of acceptance. 422 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: If you reach that point, it certainly makes it easier 423 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: to talk about. But of course, how do you reach 424 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: that point when you're entirely alone with something. It's really hard. 425 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,719 Speaker 1: And so if it's something that you feel particularly alone 426 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,719 Speaker 1: with or that you're struggling with, one other way of 427 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: thinking about how you might get to a place where 428 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: you feel comfortable talking about it with someone. And it 429 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 1: could be anyone. It could be someone totally removed from 430 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: it all, and it certainly doesn't have to be the 431 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,719 Speaker 1: person you're keeping the secret from. It can be a 432 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: third party. And maybe it's to imagine what it would 433 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: be like to talk about it and what that would 434 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: actually realistically happen if you if you revealed it to someone. 435 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: The research is really clear that the typical experience of 436 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: revealing a secret to a third party can fighting at 437 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: a third party is very helpful. Um, even a small 438 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: amount of help, even a small amount of support, seems 439 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: to go a really long way. And so maybe it's 440 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: thinking about, well, how is this hurting me? What do 441 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: I need help with? What would make me feel better 442 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: about this thing? And would that come out of a 443 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: conversation with someone else? And for most cases the answer 444 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: is yes. So you write about this art installation that 445 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: has to do with essentially anonymous confession. Yeah, it reminded 446 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: me of several years ago there was another art installation 447 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: at the Have been a museum in in Manhattan where um, 448 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: they had index cards in the entry where people could 449 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: write down, you know, without signing, just completely anonymously, their 450 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: greatest fear and their greatest hope. And there was this 451 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: whole wall of hope and this whole wall of fear, 452 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: and you know, in the fears were things that people 453 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: might not ever tell anyone, but there they were for 454 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: everyone to read and to realize, Wow, this is what 455 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: it is to be human. All these fears, you know, 456 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 1: afraid of afraid of being homeless, afraid you know, afraid 457 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: of dying, Afraid no one will love me, you know, 458 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 1: I mean, just so basic that it was very powerful. 459 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: I mean, could you talk a little bit about that, 460 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: that installation that you were that you referred to in 461 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: the book. So this installation was also inspired by something 462 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: very similar to what you just described, where if you 463 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: can remember what it was like after the presidential election, 464 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 1: which feels so far away right now, Um, what was 465 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: happening at that time in New York is is this 466 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: guy Um, Matthew chap Az, This this artist Um had 467 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: set up essentially just piles of pens and post it 468 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: and in the sub It was essentially this was taking 469 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: place inside the subway, asking people to just write out 470 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: their feelings on a post it and put it on 471 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: the wall. And and it was just this outpouring of 472 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: emotion on each on each individual post it, you know, 473 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: things like let's stay together, we we can like work 474 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: through this um since the nation at that time had 475 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: never felt so divided, and so just walking and there 476 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: was so many. At its peak, there was about fifty 477 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: post it's in the Union Square station, and it was 478 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: just this huge display of different colors and and and 479 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: when you looked up close to these different emotions, and 480 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: it so happens that maybe two years after that, I 481 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: was walking through the subway one day and I saw 482 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: another version of this same installation, but this time it 483 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: was called Sticky Notes Secrets, and they were the these 484 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: black post its and silver ink writing on them revealing 485 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: these the secrets. And so I saw this installation, I 486 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: was like, oh wow, and I took a photo and 487 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: then I just kept walking and then I thought, wait 488 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: a minute, and I turned around and went back and 489 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: started reading them more carefully. And it's a good thing 490 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: I did, because that's when I met Matthew Chavis, who 491 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: was taking down the post It's for the night, and 492 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: his name for his project is his Subway Therapy, where 493 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: you know, the very early versions of this kind of 494 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: installation was him sitting at a table saying, you know, 495 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: essentially like the you know, Lucy and the Peanuts, being like, 496 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: I'm here for you talk to me about anything. And 497 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: that's what eventually became Subway Therapy. And so he was 498 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: telling me about the history of this, and he was 499 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: telling me about something that he had always wanted to do, 500 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: which is like create a telephone version of this where 501 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: you picked up a receiver and you can listen to 502 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: other people's secrets or reveal your own. And a few 503 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: months later, him and amazing engineers and me doing very 504 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: little together, we put together the Secret Telephone and put 505 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: it up in different parks in New York City, and 506 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: at some point people were lining up to reveal their 507 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: secrets on the Secret Telephone. Wow, that's amazing. So you 508 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: would be like just walking down the street or walking 509 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: through the park and there would be a phone. Yeah. 510 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,959 Speaker 1: So it was like a wooden table with like like 511 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: a landline phone on it, which, of course it's so 512 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: rare to see a landline period these days. Little there 513 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: in the middle of Central Park and there was just 514 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: a banner that said, some you know, get something off 515 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: your chest, the Secret Telephone. We'll be back in a 516 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: moment with more family secrets. Has there been any research 517 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: about whether it's in some way easier to write a 518 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: secret down than to speak it. There is something once 519 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: you say it out loud, it's undeniably a real thing. 520 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: There's research on, you know, journaling as a way to 521 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: work through traumatic experiences or just coping with anything that 522 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: you're struggling with, And journaling can work, but only under 523 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: certain conditions. If what you're using your journal or is 524 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: rehashing the past and how bad you feel about it. Unfortunately, 525 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: their journal just becomes a written record of harmful rumination. 526 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: And so when journaling really works well is when you're 527 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: using it to challenge your counterproductive ways of thinking. Of course, 528 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: that's really hard to do on your own. It's really 529 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: easy to fall out of a conversation with another person. 530 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: The secret telephone is interesting because you're speaking your secret 531 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: and so the receiver knowing that at some point someone 532 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: will also listen to it and hear it. And you know, 533 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: that's what's different about that compared to writing in a journal. 534 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: And then of course there's Post Secret. That project is 535 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: still ongoing where people write their secrets on a postcard 536 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: and mail them in And actually on this podcast we 537 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: have a toll free number where people can call in 538 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: and and share their share their secrets, and every once 539 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: in a while we'll actually share one or you know, 540 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: share a few just anonymously on the show. But you know, 541 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: I've been so moved and struck by how many people 542 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: call him and just just want to say and and 543 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: know that we're going to hear them. We're gonna hear 544 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: the stories. And that's the purpose is there's somebody on 545 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: the other side who's listening. There's some research totally separate 546 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: from what we're talking about now that essentially shows people 547 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: a message that someone has written, you know, the in words, 548 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: or you hear it the audio recording on the person speaking, 549 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: and to hear someone's voices is are more humanizing. There's 550 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: something special about saying it out loud, not alone in 551 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: a room, but saying it out loud in a manner 552 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: that one time, somewhat, sometime else someone will hear it. 553 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: I'm curious what you learned as the years you know 554 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: have gone by, this decade has gone by since your 555 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: father told you and your your parents you know, agreed 556 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: to tell you about your genetic origins. What have you 557 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: learned from them about what it was like? Um, the 558 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: trajectory over the course of your life in and your 559 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: brother's life, of of keeping that secret. And and if 560 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, there were other people in your family 561 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: who knew. So it wasn't a secret that only you 562 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: know that your parents were quote unquote taking to the 563 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: grave with them. There were others who knew. It was 564 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: you and your brother who didn't know. I think the 565 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: two main big things that I learned and asking my 566 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: parents more about what it was like to have the 567 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: secret was first, you know, when it started to become 568 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: a problem for them, And it seemed to become problematic 569 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: for my mother because you know, the situation is like, 570 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: now he's a teenager and I'm maybe in my early twenties, 571 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: and he's starting to, as any person does, you know, 572 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: starting to think about which trades they have inherited from 573 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: which parents, and and starting to extrapolate and started asking 574 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: questions around this, not questions about genetics, but like, oh, 575 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,879 Speaker 1: do you think I'm going to inherit this trade or 576 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: you know, when I'm an adult, I'll be like this 577 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: instead of this the way you know you are, And that, 578 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: of course that's kind of questioning would make anyone in 579 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: my parents situation really uncomfortable. And that was sort of 580 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: the first clue that, you know, my my parents might 581 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: one day reveal this secret because it was incredibly awkward 582 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: for my mom to try to navigate those questions, you know, 583 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: not difficult conversationally, but just emotionally uncomfortable. And so, you know, 584 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: I think that's what eventually was one of the reasons 585 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: why this is the secret eventually came out. But the 586 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: other was learning about who else was involved in this decision, 587 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: and I was so surprised, shocked to learn that there 588 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 1: was another major player and in this secret, which was 589 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:36,359 Speaker 1: my dad's mother, my grandmother, And she so much did 590 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: not want us to ever learn the secret. And I 591 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: wish I could talk to her about it today and 592 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: you know, tell her it's okay, but that's that's not 593 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: how that, that's not the timing um. And she just 594 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: really didn't want us to learn this because she felt 595 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: so close to us, and she didn't want us to 596 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: feel not part of the family, you know, on my 597 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: dad's side, and and me and my brother were so 598 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: close with my dad's parents. And I think the reason 599 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: my grandmother not just didn't want us to learn is 600 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 1: she just didn't want anything to interfere with those relationships. 601 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: You know, when I found out that I wasn't genetically 602 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: related to them, it made those relationships for me more special, 603 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,479 Speaker 1: not less that they that they weren't based in any 604 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,919 Speaker 1: sort of sense of genetic complication or anything like that. 605 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:35,359 Speaker 1: That they treated us as their great children as if 606 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: we were genetically related to us. And for me, that 607 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: just makes the relationships more special to learn that they 608 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,439 Speaker 1: weren't based in genetics. But unfortunately I can't I can't 609 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:52,240 Speaker 1: tell her that that's really moving and also a loss, 610 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: because um, wouldn't it have been wonderful for her to 611 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: know that it didn't matter, that it that it didn't matter, 612 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: It didn't matter her, uh and it didn't matter to her, 613 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: but also that it didn't matter to you, uh and 614 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,399 Speaker 1: it didn't matter to your brother. And I think that 615 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: that's always you know, the fear is it's gonna it's 616 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: gonna make a difference, and you know that goes back 617 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: to well, then then it has to be then it 618 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: has to be kept secret and then and then it 619 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: remains this this um you know, in some way psychically 620 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: the elephant in the room. Yeah, I mean everyone has 621 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: secrets because, um, your research showed that at any given moment, 622 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: all of us, you know, on an average, are carrying 623 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: how many secrets as you define them, and that that 624 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: includes some of the dormant ones we were talking about too, 625 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,919 Speaker 1: but um, yeah, that includes some small ones and big ones. 626 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: It's it's the whole picture. And and we're not just 627 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 1: all keeping many secrets, even you know, whilst only some 628 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,760 Speaker 1: of them are currently relevant to today we're all keeping 629 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: the same kinds of secrets. Yeah, and that's so important 630 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: to note because if we only, if we only realize that, 631 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: like really on a deep level, realized that it would 632 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,399 Speaker 1: just kind of explode the need to keep so many 633 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: of them. Yeah, as isolating and personal as a seeker 634 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: can feel, we all have similar ones. For more podcasts 635 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: for my heart radio, visit the I heart Radio app, 636 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.