WEBVTT - Jason Flom 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:07.760 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the Bob Left Sets podcast. My 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:15.040 guest this week is Jason Flam. Talent, signer, developer, maker, extraordinary, 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:18.640 legendary philanthropists. Good to have you here, Jason throughout to 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:20.480 be here, Bob. You know, it's nice to see the 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:24.360 letter that I've read for these decades, or EON's whatever 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:27.960 it's been, you know, come to life. So your father 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:31.240 was a legendary New York lawyer. Did you know that 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:34.319 growing up? Well, he wasn't when I was little, right, 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:36.879 he became and it wasn't. I mean, I just know 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:38.839 for those who don't know, there's a huge section on 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.920 Jason's father in Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers that tells a 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:46.839 lot of his story. Now, he ultimately got into a 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:51.120 mergers and acquisitions and other things. So when you're growing up, 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:53.519 what was the status of his career? Right? So this, 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:56.520 the chapter about my dad and Outliers is called the 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.279 Three Lessons of Joe Flam, and I can talk about him. 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:01.160 We spend the whole pocast talking about him because he 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.280 was my hero and my role model and everything and 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.600 my mentor, etcetera. So are my most important mentor. But 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.640 The amazing thing about my dad is that he was 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:13.720 the son of immigrants who spoke no English. They spoke Yiddish. 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:16.640 He grew up so poor that in Brooklyn in those days, 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:18.920 you could your first month's rent was free if you 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.000 would move into an apartment. So they would move every 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:23.360 month for a period of years. Apparently they moved every month, 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:25.559 just my dad and his sister, Flow and their parents. 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:27.560 And yeah, my sister's name was Flow Flam, which is 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:31.440 kind of funny, but it's true. So anyway, um so, yeah, 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:33.360 he went to City College at night. Well what did 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.080 the father do for a living? He was a labor organizer, 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:37.679 but he's unemployed most of the time. And I think 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:40.479 his mother was like an unemployed seamstress or something. Um so, 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:43.160 uh so, may I went to City College at night, 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:44.840 but you can graduate. Because World War two broke out, 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:46.880 so he went to the army. And when he got 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:48.440 out of the army, he would letter to Harvard Law 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.360 School and he said, I don't have any money and 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.400 I don't have a college degree, but I'm the best 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:55.360 thing since sliced bread, and if you let me, and 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:57.880 you won't regret it. And they gave him a full scholarship, 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:00.280 and then he went on to become of course, you know, 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:02.960 some people say the greatest lawyer of the twenties century, 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:05.920 certainly the greatest corporate lawyer of the twentieth century by 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:09.040 anybody's estimation. So you're growing up, what's the status of 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:12.560 his career. So the first time I realized that he was, 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.119 you know, sort of a big mucketing muck was when 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:16.720 the New York Times we used to get New York 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:19.519 Times delivered. I still do. I like the actual paper. 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:21.680 I read the paper too. It's study when you read 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:26.200 it online, you missed certain stuff. So my dad showed 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:28.120 up on the front page of the New York Times 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:30.400 and I saw his picture on. So he didn't tell 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:32.280 you it was gonna be just the I'm not sure 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:34.480 if he knew, because it wasn't a picture of him. 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:38.400 It was a picture of him, you know, with doing something. 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.440 But um, I remember saying to that day I got dad, 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:44.079 I don't know why this occurred to me. I was 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:47.239 like that are we rich? And he was like, no, 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.120 I don't know what you mean whatever, because you know, 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.680 I mean, we lived nicely, but it wasn't like Limos, 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:54.800 and you know, we flew coach and it wasn't like 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.359 you know, I mean, I'm not listen. I know I'm privileged. 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.000 I know I was born. The spoon wasn't silvery, yeah, 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.520 but it turned silver while was growing up. And I 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.080 was a child of private schools and etcetera. But um, 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.080 the you know, I had less allowance than my friends 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:10.600 and things like that. I think my parents were pretty 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:12.520 careful to keep And my dad told my brother and 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:14.560 I that he was gonna give all his money to charity. 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:16.600 So he's like, whatever I make because going away. So 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:18.320 you guys better go make your own. And are you 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.240 the older brother, younger brother? I'm a younger brother, And 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:24.079 where's your older brother today? My older Brother's a great 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:26.600 story because my older brother was born almost two and 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:28.799 a half months early and almost didn't survive. They didn't 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:30.200 know how to deal with that so well back then, 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.560 and he, uh famously, the doctor came out and said 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:36.320 to my mother, your son's gonna live, but he's never 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:38.200 going to go to college or anything like that. And 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.800 so he had severe learning disabilities and physical problems and 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:45.480 coordination problems, and uh so when it came time to 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:47.160 go to school, there were no schools for kids like 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:49.800 him because he wasn't technically in any of the categories. 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:51.560 He wasn't so messed up that he could go to 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:53.640 the school for what they used to call retarded kids 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.240 back then, right, but we don't call them that, but uh, 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:57.880 And he couldn't go to regular school. So my mom, 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:01.040 who had no background an education, started school, um called 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:03.320 the Gateway School, and my brother was the first student. 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:07.360 And now he's got his PhD and psychometrics and so 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:09.560 the school is still the best school of its kind. 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:15.320 What is psychometrics, it's the psychology of statistics. So basically 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:17.599 he's fine, He's fine. Yeah, he's fine. I mean, he 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:19.880 had very difficult childhood because it was different than other kids, 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.400 and it was something that's really still bothers me to 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:25.040 this day, the fact that he was picked on and 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:29.120 was bullied, um and um. And there was nothing I 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:30.800 could do about it. But there are a lot of 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.679 people who grew up in that situation and it affects 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:36.240 the family because it affects them because all the attention 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.559 is paid to the child with difficulty. Did you feel 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:41.920 that growing up? No, not at all. I didn't feel 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.600 that way. Um. You know, there was you know, my 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:47.560 family was odd. I mean, my dad was at the 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:49.320 office almost all the time, you know, because he was 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.680 building his you know, his legacy and um. And I 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.799 thought that was normal. And my mom was a lovely woman, 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:57.680 but she didn't know how to show love. She had 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.000 no idea like there was And I didn't even realize 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.600 is it until she was gone. And my sister, who 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:04.440 not around anymore, but my sister and my half sister, 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:07.240 told me that my mom had never you know, hugged 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:08.839 us or played with us, or read us a story 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:10.520 or even touched us, or never said I love you 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:11.840 like she couldn't do it. Even if I would say 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:13.839 it to her, she couldn't say it back. Well, we 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:15.640 didn't say that. My mother didn't say it. You know, 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:17.960 on some level, it's children of that era. Although my mother, 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.040 I think probably shouldn't have had children, would have been 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:23.200 a career woman in a different era. And as the result, 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:25.039 it messes you up as an adult because you don't 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:28.279 know how to say those things. But I didn't know 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:30.200 what I was missing. You knew what you were missing. No, 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:31.680 I didn't know it either. I no idea. I thought 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:33.320 it was just normal. I did it didn't occur to 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:36.599 me until until well until my sister told me, which 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.080 was probably ten years ago. And then I've learned in 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:44.039 various forms of therapy what that meant. And so just 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:47.159 to get the story straight, so I understand your half 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:50.120 sister is your mother was married before she was married 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:52.360 to your father. My mother was married to one of 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:56.080 the guys who cracked the Japanese code in World War two, um, 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:58.840 and then they were divorced, which was not a common thing, 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:03.400 very uncommon. And then she became a decorator, and my dad, 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:06.760 who was penniless, was in had gotten a job as 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:08.760 an associate and a law firm that had no clients, 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.800 UM called Scadding Arps Slate mart eventually became Scadin Art 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:15.080 Slate Martin flamm I was known as Scadding Um and 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:17.560 so they had four partners in one associated and no clients. 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:20.280 Actually his first client was a guy named Coutzy beg Desh, 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:22.200 but that's a different story. But he was in a 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:25.080 horrendous car accident. He was in He was a passenger 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:26.880 in a tax He had a stop later and an 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:29.800 off duty cop plowed into it. It was drunk or 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.599 fell asleep plot into the taxi. The driver was killed. 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:35.159 My dad ended up in the hospital for quite some time, 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.120 and when he got his insurance check, he decided to 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:38.840 decorate his apartment and he hired my mother. And that's 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.120 why I'm here. Wow. Okay, So you grow up in 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:44.000 that family even though your father is not around that. 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.240 But because he's working, is there a lot of pressure 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:50.240 to do well in school. So my dad said to me, 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:52.919 do whatever you want to do, try to be the 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.000 best data, but just make the world a better place. 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:57.800 He says, that's the meaning of success. And I wanted 0:06:57.839 --> 0:06:59.600 to be a success in his eyes. And so that 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:01.279 stuck with me to this day. And I say it 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.240 when I give my speeches, I I quote him on 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:04.720 that because I think it's a really powerful quote. I've 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:06.240 told my kids out of course. He told my brother 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:08.120 as well, and I've tried to live up to that. 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:12.240 Um So the pressure really was um No, there wasn't 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:14.120 that much pressure in terms of that. I mean, I 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:16.800 was the best student in school until eighth grade. You know. 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:19.560 Bear in mind my dad was a legitimate genius and 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.320 my mom graduated Cornell when she was eighteen. So she said, 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.800 that's a crazy story. She graduated Cornell. She got buried 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.680 in divorce. It's like she was thirty years ahead of herself. Yeah, 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:30.800 she was. She was an interesting moment with my mom. 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:33.880 So obviously very very you know, very smart and so 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:36.720 um the jeans were great. But so what happened in 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.320 eighth grade? In eighth grade, a friend of mine said 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:42.720 to me, um, hey, um uh, you know, I want 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:44.360 to come by the house, tod, I said, craty goes 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:48.160 want me to bring some reefer. I was like, I 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:49.760 had no idea what that was, but I didn't want 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:50.760 to admit that I didn't know what it was. I 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:52.880 was like, okay, So he brought it over. He brought 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.760 some reefer which we used to call it, and we 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:00.440 smoked whatever, some joints or something. And I remember we 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.000 were listening to The Who and the record was warped, right, 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:04.480 you know. It's like, I still it's weird that I 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.760 remember that all these years later. But so I found 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:09.840 you know, it was around this time. It took a 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:11.920 little while longer than that, but it was around nine 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:13.720 or tenth grade that I found out I wasn't. I 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:16.240 was almost good enough to make the sports teams, right. 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.760 I was like the last I went to Fieldston. So 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:21.760 I was like, you know, I have very quick hands 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:23.600 and slow feet, but slow feet are no good in 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.000 team sports, right, You can't. You can't make the soccer team. 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:27.440 You can't make the football team. You can't make the 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.480 basketball team because if you're slow, usually can't jump. So 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:32.960 I was like, well this sucks. I'm a monster ping 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.800 punk player, you know, like I can I could people 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:37.400 up at sports where you don't need to run. You know, 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:41.439 I'm very good snowboarder, as you know, but anyway, so um, 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:44.400 but you can't run. So I couldn't make the sports teams. 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:46.280 So I decided I would play guitar and smoke weed. 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.120 And so then my grades took up, and then I 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.719 found gambling, and then things okay, well let's break this 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.480 down a little bit. You find these things, your grades 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:57.040 to go downhill. You're going to fields, and does anybody 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:59.240 raise their hand and say, hey, we've seen a dramatic change, 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:01.760 and Jay sin or do your parents freak out? I 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:04.160 think it was eighth or ninth grade. I was in 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:06.280 the they divided the math class. I think they still 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:07.920 do this. So they divided the kids up in the 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:10.920 math classes from the smartest to the least smart. I'm 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.480 gonna be publicly correct, right. So there were six math 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.120 classes because it's about twenty kids in the grade, and 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.559 I was in the top class, and I was the 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:22.280 only one. The first day of class. The teacher's name 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.360 was Mr Spooner, and Mr Spooner gave us a test. 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.000 He didn't even say hello. He was not a very 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:28.560 nice man. Um. You know, he was one of these guys. 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:30.240 I don't care if the door was locked, You're still late, 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:32.000 you know. I mean that he was that guy. So 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:33.880 he gave us a test the first day school. I 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.040 was the only one that got forty out of forty right, 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.160 except for Tracy Bernstein on the makeup test, and I'm 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:42.199 still pissed at her about that. But anyway, so if 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:43.880 I was the only one, and there were kids in 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.120 that class to end up getting full scholarships to Harvard 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:48.480 Medical School, one kid, Paul Quintas, actually went to work 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.160 for NASA and he didn't get forty right. So I 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.640 was I was the smartest kid in the smartest class 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.800 in a very good school. And by the end of 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:59.400 the school year, I was getting five out of forty 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:01.840 right or seven? I mean, I was the worst kid 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:03.880 in the class, and nobody fucking noticed it. And I 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.280 smelled like weed all the time, I mean noticed it. 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.240 I thought, that's why you send your kids to private school. 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:10.280 Back then it was a little different though you could 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:11.760 no one could get it. And it's funny, you know. 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.000 James Deaner went to the school that that I went to, 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:15.800 about about ten years younger than me, and he said 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:20.480 they were still talking my my, miss my misdeeds because 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:22.240 I was such a druggy. I was a mess. So 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:24.400 how did you get into playing the guitar? My mom 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:26.440 bought me a guitar. I guess I asked her too. 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:29.319 When I was about that age, like thirteen, I remember 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:31.480 going to Why to take lessons. Then I had to 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:34.240 play first like Feeling Groovy and the ultimately conky tunk women. 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:36.120 And then the next thing was I think from my 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:39.520 fifteenth birthday she bought me an s g standard and 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.440 then I started a band and I played in the band. 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.000 I wrote songs and you know, and it it went 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:47.320 very well with the weed and the whole lifestyle. Okay, 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:49.240 was this a dream like you were gonna make it 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:51.040 and we're just hanging out? Oh no, no, I was 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:53.280 gonna make it. I was to make it. I had 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:55.440 this side, my eyes on the prize, and you know, 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:57.360 and that and that leads into the story. You know 0:10:57.360 --> 0:10:59.640 what happened after the end of high school. Right, let's 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:01.559 talk on the for a second. You're playing in the band. 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:04.480 How much are you working? How much you rehearsing? We 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:07.640 rehearsing a lot and gigging very little, you know, it's 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.600 usually the paradigm. Yeah, And were you more into it 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:14.320 than everybody else? Yeah? Probably, I mean they we we 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.000 rehearsed a lot. The other guitar player was a guy 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:19.800 named Jeff Burston. He was the adopted son of Ellen Burston. 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.160 And we used to rehearse at her home in Rockland County, 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.440 which was a trip. How did you get there? There's 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.440 gonna take a somebody at a car and I mean 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:28.960 that's so, you know, we it was, but they had 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:30.679 a whole set up there. We rehearsed there. We were 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.160 even rehearsed like sometimes when my parents would go away. Um, 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.679 we had we had a we had a housekeeper. Her 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:39.880 name was Carmen. We used to call her the Black Tornado. 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:42.760 She was ultimately I think she was ultimately shot by 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:44.600 her lover or her husband who found her with her 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:47.559 lover or something like that. But anyway, she would but 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:49.560 my parents would go away. She'd move all the furniture. 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:51.520 We'd move all the furniture out. We would, that's right, 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:52.800 we'd move all the furnture out of the living room, 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.480 and the whole band would come. Our partment was on 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.760 seven nights to Madison, and we would have the band 0:11:57.800 --> 0:11:59.959 and all our friends staying over for the whole weekend. 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.360 And it was just like a crazy fucking scene and 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:04.080 we would rehearse people. Then we were on the sixth 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:06.360 floor and people in the street would be looking up, 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:08.680 you know, because we were playing so loud. But I 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:10.480 don't know what the hell how we got away with this. 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.240 But and then when we would leave the housekeeper, we'd 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:16.400 go out to dinner on Sunday or lunch, whatever it was, 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:18.240 and they would come back and everything was back the 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:20.439 way it was. By herself, she would move all this stuff. 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.880 It was madness, incredible. Yea graduate from high school, you know, 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:25.320 you went to college, didn't go to n y U. 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.080 So I graduated from high school and I don't want 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.160 to go to college. Now you can imagine that was 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:34.439 not a popular choice in my Just to be clear, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:35.800 you were going to go to college, you to do 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:37.800 what you're gonna become a rock star. Become a rock star. 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.040 And so my dad came to my room one day 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:43.959 and he says, I got a deal for you know. 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:45.319 First of all, I wasn't even sure he knew where 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:47.719 my room was, right, but he did. He's probably clear. 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:50.120 I mean, I'm just interested. Okay, he's working twelve hours 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.200 a day during the weeks. He working the weekends too. 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:54.600 He's working more than twelve hours a day. Um, I mean, 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.320 it's gadden. Even now, people work way more than especially 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:58.760 when you're on your way up, they work a hundred 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.480 hours a week. But a um, you know, but he 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:03.400 was working a lot, and he would come home for 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:07.760 dinner under threat of extreme violence from my mother and 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:10.120 then go back to the office. But um, but we 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.400 had great times together. And I don't I don't fault 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:14.000 to it all for that. Maybe it's I don't know why, 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.679 but it's just it's fine. So, um, he has a 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:21.280 deal for you. It comes to my room, he says, 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:23.480 I got a deal for you. I go. What he says, Um, 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:25.880 you have a year to become a rock star. Otherwise 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:28.000 you got to go to school. I'm like, great, Dad, 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.280 you gotta deal me, thinking that, you know, because what 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:33.160 I lacked in talent I made up for in hutzpah. Right, 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:34.240 So I was like, I don't even need a whole 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.439 fucking anymore. Right I had my My song was being 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:38.319 played on the They had a show called Prisoners of 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.120 Rock on w n W, which is a big rock station, 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:41.640 work and I got played a couple of times on there. 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:43.920 I figured I'm almost the home. I'm almost there, right, 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:50.000 So um So, anyway, um this is what year seventy nine. 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.680 So he goes back to tell my mom about this 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.160 deal he made, and my mom, who had never cursed 0:13:56.160 --> 0:14:01.079 in her life until this point, apparently said bullshit. If 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:02.440 he lives in by the house, he's got to work 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.160 or go to school. So now my dad, arguably the 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:07.600 greatest negotiator of the twentieth century, had to come back 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.400 to my room and undo the deally he had just 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:14.400 made with his fucked up son, which me so. So 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:16.720 he went and made a few phone calls. He called 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:19.400 Arthur Lyman and said, Arthur, what should I do? Arthur 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:21.400 was a famous litigator. He was a guy who actually 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.120 litigated the case in the Attica Uprising and everything else, 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:28.240 great civil rights icon as well. And Arthur said, let 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.960 me call some He called Steve Ross, apparently right because 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:33.720 he was Steve's lawyer, and then he, uh somehow or other, 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:35.600 I ended up having a meeting for those people don't know. 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.400 He ran Warner Communications. Steve Ross at the time, right, 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.640 he was a legendary figure and he uh so, So 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.480 Steve arranged for me to go have an interview with 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:46.480 a guy named David Horowitz who was the head of 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.680 the Warner Music Division in those days. Right, this is 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:51.800 all unbeknownst to you, or he's telling you what he do. 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:54.200 I knew nothing. So one day I was told to 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:56.920 go report to David Horrowitz his office at seventy five 0:14:56.960 --> 0:15:00.040 Rocket Feller Plaza. I didn't know who he was, and 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.280 and I smoked two joints and I walked in, slumped 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:04.440 down in the chair, and he goes, you're going to 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:08.040 work at Atlantic Records. And I was like, huh, all right, now, 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:09.840 it's interesting because they sent me to Atlantic Wreckers. It 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.560 was July thirty first, nineteen seventy nine. They handed me 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.360 some double sided tape, a staple gun, a bunch of posters, 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:18.440 Zeppelin posters and other posters, and they sent me out 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:20.000 to go to the record stores and put up posters 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:23.240 in these we were I was I think my title 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:26.840 was assistant trainee field merchant. Now what's odd is that 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:28.840 until this time, it had never even occurred to me 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:32.920 that that well, that they could be. The record companies 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:34.960 were a thing like. I didn't know where I thought 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:37.640 records came from. And Atlantic was my favorite label because 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:39.600 going back in time, here's a crazy story for you. 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:44.680 When I was fifteen, my dad came home one day 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:47.640 with a box of records. I was an avid record collector, 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:49.520 but I probably had a hundred and five records at 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.000 this point, and he came up with a box of 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.400 records from Atlantic. And I found out later that the 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:56.600 story was that am It had called Im at urn 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.680 Agin right, the legendary founder of Atlantic Records, at least 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.040 for a time, I'm the greatest record man in his time, 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.000 of all time, and m It had called my dad 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:07.440 unbeknownst to me, and said, Joe, I have a problem 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:09.000 and my lawyers can't figure out what to do. I 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:10.480 hear you're the best can you help me? And my 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:14.440 dad said, I don't take individual cases. I worked from corporations, 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.480 but what's your problem? And apparently I'm had told him 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:19.000 what the problem was. That my dad told him what 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.360 to tell his lawyers to go do, and he did 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:23.360 and it worked. So he called my dad and said, Joe, 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:25.200 I gotta do something for you. Says at to send 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:26.840 my kids some records. He would have known. They came 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:30.280 in boxes right right, and that box Bob had goats 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.760 Head Soup, James Gang Bang, ROBERTA Flak killing Me, softly, 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.520 bad company. I think it was straight shooter. I mean 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:40.000 it was fucking incredible. Quality control in those days was ridiculous. 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.080 It was a few that I didn't want. I think 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:43.480 it was gonna read the Franklin Record and the ire 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:45.360 was like, get the funk out of here, this Atlantic record, 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.520 So that A became debt like etched into my brain 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:50.760 because I spent so much time watching them goats Head 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:52.440 Soup how many times? And I lost to that record, 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:55.760 So that was the only different I used to. I 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.880 had a You remember the sterias that came into They 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:00.720 were like a little suitcase right how the record player 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:03.040 and the speakers folded it on top, so I had 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.159 a orange for Mica table and I would stick my 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:08.880 face and straight down on the table and put one 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.840 speaker on each side of my head and play Heartbreaker 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:13.719 over and over again just to hear the intro, right, 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:17.000 because it was the most New York City Yeah right, 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:18.640 But what was really it was really about the musical 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:24.600 intro that had a great stone. Sorry, can't you hear 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:28.639 the music? And Winter? I don't know. So in any event, 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.240 you get this gig, you're not going to school or 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:32.960 my head of the story. No, So I'm one. I 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:34.879 have a year to become a rock star, right, But 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:36.640 now I get this gig at Atlantic, and I forgot 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:38.320 all about being a rock star. But at the same time, 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:40.680 the Verset van Halen record came out, and I'll never 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:44.719 forget because we had taken some sort of llucinogenic. We 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:48.760 were at my my friend's house and and um, and 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:50.639 I was not a big guy. I didn't do a 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:52.960 lot of stuff, so it was really you know, And 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:56.240 I happened to walk into his room fully out of 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:58.520 my mind, and he had just dropped the needle on 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.480 the first Van Halen record, heard eruption, and I said, 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:04.119 fuck it, this is ridiculous. There's no point I might. 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:06.640 I might as well try to dunk a basketball. It's 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:08.919 not one my three inch vertical jewish leap. It's not 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.320 going to happen. So I said, okay, so it's around. 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:15.280 All this was sort of happening concurrently, but nonetheless I 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:17.040 was still trying. In the beginning, I had to. They 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:18.800 gave me a tiny little office because they just had 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:21.240 an extra one, and I had a little couch and 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:23.919 I had Around this time, I discovered a CDC. Discovered them. 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:26.120 I discovered that they existed, right. I found Dirty Deeds 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:28.000 Do Under Cheap in the hallways, someone's throwing it out, 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:29.320 and I took it home because it looked cool, and 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:30.600 I started listening to it. And then I found out 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:32.520 that a C d C had like four albums, and 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:34.400 I was like, holy sh it, this is the greatest thing. 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:36.920 It was almost as if someone had said it's almost 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:38.560 as if I, like Errol Smith, had been in a 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:40.320 time capsule, and all of a sudden, I had like 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.159 everything from Dream onto Rocks right, And I was like, 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:45.080 oh my god. It was a revelation. So I spent 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:46.960 all my time and I had an s g standard, 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.040 just like Congus. And one day I had it in 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:51.040 the office with me, right because sometimes I have my 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:54.760 guitar in the office, and I don't think I've ever 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:59.120 sewn this story in public. But so the head of publicity, 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:00.880 who knew how much I of d c DC comes 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:02.159 to me one day and she says her name was 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.480 Simo Do and Semo says, Jason a C d C 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:05.679 is gonna be in the building for them. They had 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.000 just started happening at Highway to Hell was their first hit, 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:10.800 and it had just gone gold apparently, and she says, 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:12.399 they're gonna be here. They're getting the gold album. So 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:13.719 I was like, holy ship, where they gonna be. She goes, 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:15.239 I think they're going to the thirtieth floor. Now, we 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:19.280 were on the second floor um Atlantic Records headquarters. So 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:20.960 I said, fucking I'm going up to the thirties floor, 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:22.680 which was corporate, right. So I up to the thirty 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:24.919 five hair like I had tons of hair back then, right, 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.720 like tons, And of course they're not letting me in. 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:29.760 So then I decided I'd wait on the second floor 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:31.760 to see if they showed up. And I'm standing there 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.320 in the reception area and they come toodling out of 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:36.480 the elevator, you know, all of them about five too, right, 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:39.840 and I am having an out of body experience, right, 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:44.160 I haven't met rock stars before. So they come walking 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.359 on there. Forgot Phil Rudd, the drummer, had taken They 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:49.600 apparently give him a cake and it was in a box. 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:51.359 It was in a long, flat box. I don't know 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:52.639 why he took it. Maybe it's said a C D 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:54.800 C on who the hell knows. So he comes in 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:56.280 and he walks and he puts it on their SETFACEA 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.440 he goes our our a pizza delivery, Go, we're gonna 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:01.800 pay for these? I got I'm doing this sounds like 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:03.760 a Southern ax. I'm trying to do Australian. But anyway, 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:05.840 so I was like, oh my god, it's the coolest 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:08.480 things ever happened. And so I see Bond walking and 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:10.840 Bond fucking Scott right, So I follow him and I 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:12.600 found with the homewa like, go, Bond, I got to 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:14.320 talk to you man, like it's so cool. Like I 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.440 just always wondered, you know, what the what you would 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:19.000 sound like because the way you sing and the way 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:21.040 you talk, like how do you talk? And he goes, yeah, 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:22.760 well thanks, I'm saying a lot this. You know, He's 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:24.240 holding his nose and he goes, yeah, come to think 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:26.960 about my He says, I got cocaine. Nos, no cocaine. 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:29.600 You got any I was like, I was like, no, 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:31.399 but I got some weed in my office. You know, 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:33.120 you want to come to my office. He was like, yeah, mate, 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.040 you know whatever. So it comes to my office. I've 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:36.840 got my guitar, I've got my fucking demo tape in 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:38.760 the office, which I hand to him, of course, and 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:40.720 I still used to I was still like, it's still 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:43.360 a little distant dream there. That was my original thought. 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:44.440 When I got to work at Atlantic. I was like, 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:45.720 holy shit, if I get a job doing you or 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:49.080 I could sign myself. I actually had that thought. So, 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:53.239 you know, Bond leaves and they go into the conference room, 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:56.520 and I figured I've had my moment. And an hour later, 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:58.920 I'm walking down the hallway and I see Angus Bond 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:01.360 and Malcolm knock on this door of this guy named 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.000 Raphael Santana, who was our dancing music guy. Did none 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:05.359 of it made any sense to me, but I started 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:06.960 was just staying out of the way at this point, 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:09.640 and I walked by it here and going there's Jason, 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:13.399 and there's Jason in there, and I'm like, are you 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:17.639 looking for me? And then Marco that this is a 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:20.200 gool right here I tell you about gets on his 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:24.359 office double tape and I was like, then, then, fucking 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:26.520 next thing I know, Angus and Malcolm come tootling down 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.720 to my fucking tiny little office when Angus plops himself 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:31.800 down the couch, picks up the guitar and starts playing. 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:35.160 Now I've got a fucking poster of Angus on the wall, 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:38.280 the power Rage poster, and he's sitting in front of 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:40.479 it playing a fucking s G standard, and you can 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:43.879 imagine my brain is exploding, right, and I'll never forget. 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:45.560 I said to him. I go, ang It's like, oh, 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:46.840 you know, I was asked a couple of questions and 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:48.760 I was like, you know, you're so fucking cool, You're 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:50.720 so great at guitar, and you're so young, Like when 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:52.199 did you take it up plane? When you take up 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:55.240 plane seriously? And he goes, I never took it up seriously. 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:57.880 And I'm like, ship right, right, right right, And that's 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:00.000 in keeping because there's that great quote from Angus. Where's 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:02.199 but he said what he said, Um, I'm sick and 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:04.960 tired of hearing people telling us that we made eleven 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:06.840 records and they all sound the same. We've actually made twelve. 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:11.600 So anyway, so I said, I figured I might as 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:13.920 well push my luck, because that's me, as you know. 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:16.240 And so I asked him if he'd give me a 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:17.840 guitar lesson, and he dad. He told me to play 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:19.399 Kicked in the Teeth. He told me to play you 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:24.399 know that riff and kicks and alright, he did that 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:26.800 riff raff and it was it was crazy, and then 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:29.199 that became you know, then I was Now I was 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.159 completely obsessed, and I ended up getting my first gold 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:35.120 record UM for for Highway to Hell, because I designed. 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:38.240 I wandered into the head of advertising office one day. 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:39.680 It was who was like a deity to me. It 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:42.080 was a vice president for advertising. Name was George Salavich. 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:44.560 I go, George, I got an idea, goes, what kid, 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:46.320 what do you want to go? We should do an 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:48.720 ad for Highway to Hell. The Highway to Hell is 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:50.600 paved with gold, and we could have like a gold 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:53.439 highway in Hell at the end and congratulate a CDC 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:56.000 because Erroosmith had done these ads. You remember that famous 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:58.920 Toys Built a Last ad. Actually I don't, Oh my god, 0:22:58.920 --> 0:23:00.000 it was the coolest thing when I was a kid. 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.160 It so Errol Smith had done an ad. They took 0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:06.880 an elephant and he's two and his two fronts are 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:09.880 they called feet elephants? Yeah, they're not paused, his two 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:14.360 front feet whatever they pads. What we're on. We're balanced 0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:17.760 on Tonka trucks. And it just said toys built to last, 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:20.520 Arrowsmith Double Platinum toys in the attic, and I was like, 0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:22.040 that's the And they did a number of these. They 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:26.639 were incredible. They that rocks. One was amazing. It was 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:28.720 a glassful of diamonds and vodka being poured on it. 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:30.199 There was one fordraw the line where it was a 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:32.960 woman was gorgeous. Of course, woman in like a leo. 0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:35.280 It's hard with the tights and she was standing on 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:38.520 a tight rope that she was painting and and bending 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:41.119 over and holding an arrow Smith umbrella and it just 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:44.000 said Arrowsmith draws the line or whatever like no, I 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:46.119 said no, I said platinum in the line of duty 0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:49.520 a right. So anyway, so so I said, George, we 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:51.000 gotta do this add so he says, no, we don't 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:52.320 have money for these type of things, you know. So 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:54.600 I said ship. But then when it went platinum, he 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:56.000 calls me in his office and I look and he 0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:58.280 has the mock up from the art department. The highway 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:00.960 hell is paved with platinum. I have the original mock 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:02.560 up in my house, signed by all the A C. 0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:04.000 D C guys, and I end up getting a gold 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:05.959 record for that. So the point being at the end 0:24:06.000 --> 0:24:07.720 of my year, because I was on the year trainee 0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:10.679 program and at the end of the year, I had 0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:13.240 to go to school, but they asked me to stay 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:16.720 and so I ended up going to n y U. Uh, 0:24:17.040 --> 0:24:19.640 you know, technically full time although I was rarely seen 0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:23.080 on campus and working full time in Atlantic Um. You know, 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:25.080 I was making four dollars an hour, but I didn't care. 0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:27.439 I thought it was a great at job in the world. Okay, 0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:32.159 couple of things. Was your father this aggressive? Uh? In 0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:35.800 terms of what, well, you see an opportunity and you 0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:39.440 seize it. You gave Bob Scott your demo tape. I 0:24:39.440 --> 0:24:41.280 would be too uptight to do that, I said, Oh, 0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:43.399 people must have been given a demo tape. All the time, 0:24:43.520 --> 0:24:45.520 I gotta be cool. You know, I don't have to 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:48.080 push it. Where did you learn to push it? I 0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:50.359 don't know. I mean, look, my dad's the guy who 0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:52.640 wrote a letter to Harvard Law School, right. I mean, so, 0:24:52.760 --> 0:24:54.359 you know there's that great saying. I think it's Wayne 0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:55.960 Gretzky that said you missed a hundred percent of the 0:24:55.960 --> 0:24:58.280 shots you don't take, right, And I've always felt that way. 0:24:58.320 --> 0:25:01.040 I mean, I don't, uh, I've I've developed this thing 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:03.159 over the years, you know, the times when I haven't 0:25:03.200 --> 0:25:05.840 done that, and then you sit around kicking yourself for 0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:08.800 somewhere between days and weeks, right, And then I decided, 0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:10.760 any time I do that, I'm give myself a non 0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:13.840 moving violation, right. I kind of invented this phrase, I think. 0:25:13.880 --> 0:25:16.600 So I don't want those. I don't want nine moving violations. 0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:20.199 I'd rather deal with rejection than regret. So, you know, 0:25:20.320 --> 0:25:22.520 so to me, whether or not it's meeting a girl 0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:25.280 out and about or you know, just and you know 0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:27.080 obviously you can't be too aggressive there, but you know, 0:25:27.160 --> 0:25:28.920 you you know you could still go up and ask 0:25:28.920 --> 0:25:31.200 someone to talk to you. Okay, So when someone rejects 0:25:31.200 --> 0:25:34.000 you or things don't work out. How do you metabolize that? 0:25:35.119 --> 0:25:38.560 Just keep it moving like just okay. So if you failed, 0:25:38.640 --> 0:25:40.480 come right back up to bad. Yeah, what are you 0:25:40.480 --> 0:25:41.960 gonna do if you fail? You fail? I mean you 0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:43.960 can't take it personally. And and the and this thing 0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:46.199 that people do, this thing is much shorter, though it 0:25:46.240 --> 0:25:48.440 doesn't last as long as if you know, you ever 0:25:48.480 --> 0:25:51.280 see those ads or whatever that only the girl. There 0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:53.440 was a girl on the subway on Tuesday. And I mean, 0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:55.520 like you see that. There used to be a thing 0:25:55.520 --> 0:25:57.719 like in the Village Voice. That's ridiculous, by the way. 0:25:57.760 --> 0:26:00.639 You know how I first became aware of you, not 0:26:00.680 --> 0:26:03.120 to flip the script or anything, but the first time 0:26:03.160 --> 0:26:05.199 I heard about you the left sets letter. So this 0:26:05.280 --> 0:26:08.480 is in probably or so, and the left sets letter 0:26:08.560 --> 0:26:10.879 was like mimiograph or whatever you used to do xerox, 0:26:10.960 --> 0:26:12.080 I don't know what the funk he used to do 0:26:12.119 --> 0:26:14.240 and stapled and sent out and I would see it 0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:16.440 on people's desk and I didn't know. I think I 0:26:16.480 --> 0:26:18.840 saw it on Twin Jerram's desk, and he was on 0:26:18.880 --> 0:26:22.359 the Twin Jerram was a legendary um um in a 0:26:22.359 --> 0:26:24.520 lot of ways, but he had been the various times 0:26:24.520 --> 0:26:26.080 that had a promotion ahead of A and R had 0:26:26.080 --> 0:26:29.119 a publicity Atlantic Records. Um, just that we could do 0:26:29.119 --> 0:26:32.119 a whole podcast about him and his stories. It's sucking incredible. 0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:34.480 And uh, I saw it on his desk and I 0:26:34.520 --> 0:26:35.879 picked it up and I started reading it. And you 0:26:35.920 --> 0:26:39.639 had done a whole thing about Tory Amos's lips, right. So, 0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:42.240 and this is when I had signed Tory Amos and um, 0:26:42.560 --> 0:26:45.440 the first record had stiffed right was why can't Tory right? 0:26:45.520 --> 0:26:48.480 And the second one was of course little Earthquakes and 0:26:48.640 --> 0:26:51.600 it was just starting to happen, and she had made 0:26:51.600 --> 0:26:56.119 that phenomenal video that that groundbreaking video for Silent all 0:26:56.119 --> 0:26:58.879 these years, and Bob had written and talking about you 0:26:58.920 --> 0:27:02.320 in the third person. Bob had uh pretty much a 0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:04.600 diet tribe about the way her lips moved and the thing. 0:27:04.640 --> 0:27:06.119 And I was like, this guy's nuts. But I like, 0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:08.879 and I think I might have reached out to you 0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:10.639 back then. So that's the first time I became aware. 0:27:10.840 --> 0:27:12.639 But let's go back. So now you're going to n 0:27:12.760 --> 0:27:14.680 y U full time and you're working full time. How 0:27:14.680 --> 0:27:16.840 does that play out? So technically I was still a 0:27:16.840 --> 0:27:18.440 part time employee, but I was working like thirty five 0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:19.760 hours a week at four dalls. Now I think I 0:27:19.800 --> 0:27:21.639 might have gotten raised a four fifty by now. And 0:27:21.680 --> 0:27:23.480 there was a whole controversy about that. I mean it 0:27:23.560 --> 0:27:25.040 was like I had to get to tell the story 0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:27.720 how you're putting up posters and they think you're a spy. 0:27:28.119 --> 0:27:30.120 Oh well no, that was when I first came in there, 0:27:30.240 --> 0:27:32.359 so they have signed me. There was a guy named 0:27:32.359 --> 0:27:35.760 Philip van Pool who was the field merchandiser and I 0:27:35.800 --> 0:27:38.639 was assigned as a trainee to him. Now, all he 0:27:38.760 --> 0:27:41.639 knew and he was a kid from the streets whatever 0:27:41.680 --> 0:27:44.840 and and from Baltimore I think, And all he knew 0:27:44.920 --> 0:27:47.360 was that corporate had said you're to take this kid 0:27:47.359 --> 0:27:50.359 around and whatever you're doing stopped doing it right, Like, 0:27:50.400 --> 0:27:52.359 whatever it is, don't do it around this kid. I 0:27:52.359 --> 0:27:54.520 don't know why that. No, no, that corporate had sent 0:27:54.600 --> 0:27:57.200 me to him. His immediate bosses were the two heads 0:27:57.240 --> 0:27:59.680 of sales, sal You Toronto and Nick Maria, who were 0:27:59.720 --> 0:28:03.240 Carrot of the eighth order. Right, the names are perfect, 0:28:03.280 --> 0:28:05.200 like if you had to cast these guys as themselves, 0:28:05.480 --> 0:28:10.000 you'd name them that. So anyway, so um so, yeah, 0:28:10.000 --> 0:28:12.120 they had told him clean up your fucking act whatever 0:28:12.160 --> 0:28:14.840 you're doing. So he took me the first day to 0:28:15.080 --> 0:28:17.520 fourteen record stars. I remember it was July thirty one, 0:28:17.680 --> 0:28:21.280 nineteen seventy nine. We are trapesing all over Manhattan, carrying 0:28:21.320 --> 0:28:23.880 these rolls of posters and staple ones and double side 0:28:23.880 --> 0:28:26.080 of tape and all this ship and climbing around on ladders, 0:28:26.320 --> 0:28:28.119 and I remember at one point, I know, I said, hey, 0:28:28.119 --> 0:28:29.800 do you want to stop? And Smoking's like, no, man, 0:28:29.840 --> 0:28:32.520 I can't do that. You know, We're we got too 0:28:32.560 --> 0:28:34.480 much work. And I was like, can we stopping at lunch? 0:28:34.480 --> 0:28:35.960 He was like, we got ten minutes, man, let's get 0:28:35.960 --> 0:28:38.840 some pizza. I was like, pizza, it's a hundred degrees like. 0:28:39.920 --> 0:28:41.520 But that was my first day and I went home 0:28:41.520 --> 0:28:43.640 and I was like, wow, this is unbelievable, Like I 0:28:43.640 --> 0:28:45.440 don't know how I'm gonna make this work. And then 0:28:45.480 --> 0:28:46.840 the next day I came in with a case of 0:28:46.920 --> 0:28:48.560 like that, you know, a few joints whatever, and I 0:28:48.600 --> 0:28:49.800 was like, come on, let's go smoke. And I don't 0:28:49.800 --> 0:28:51.400 think we ever did more than three displays in the 0:28:51.480 --> 0:28:54.480 day after that. It was it was ridiculous. We became friends. Okay, 0:28:54.480 --> 0:28:56.840 so now you're going to school and you're working in Atlantic, 0:28:57.000 --> 0:28:59.320 what's the next move? So then I decided, you know, 0:28:59.360 --> 0:29:01.320 I found out that of these guys, at various times, 0:29:01.320 --> 0:29:03.240 I was delivering the mail or doing other things, and 0:29:03.320 --> 0:29:05.719 I started to see these A and R guys right 0:29:06.000 --> 0:29:07.400 to deliver the mail to the office, and none of 0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:10.840 them looked particularly adept to me. Um, and they weren't 0:29:11.000 --> 0:29:13.840 actually you know, Atlantic, I think Ahmed had signed all 0:29:13.840 --> 0:29:16.080 the hits or whatever it was, or Phil Carson or somebody, 0:29:16.280 --> 0:29:20.000 and uh, you know, so I was like, fuck, you know, 0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:22.600 it seems to me that I'm if I could be 0:29:22.720 --> 0:29:25.280 half good at this, I'd be three quarters better than 0:29:25.320 --> 0:29:27.200 the rest of these guys. You know, that was actually 0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:28.880 my calculus. So I decided I need to get a 0:29:28.960 --> 0:29:31.440 job doing an R. Well, that was tricky. So what 0:29:31.600 --> 0:29:33.800 happened was sort of a miracle of the zebras did 0:29:33.800 --> 0:29:36.720 everythode of the Zebra story. So Zebra was So here's 0:29:36.720 --> 0:29:38.760 how I found my way into the A and R department. 0:29:38.800 --> 0:29:40.760 And I think, for for people who may be listening 0:29:40.800 --> 0:29:42.280 that want to make it in the music business, we're 0:29:42.280 --> 0:29:44.120 starting to make the music because this story is probably 0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:48.280 gonna be helpful. So I decided that I would study 0:29:48.280 --> 0:29:50.360 because rock was my ship, right, And there was a 0:29:50.480 --> 0:29:53.160 magazine back then, which you'll remember called Album Network. Of course, 0:29:53.160 --> 0:29:55.440 an album Network was the bible of rock radio. And 0:29:55.440 --> 0:29:57.640 on the cover they would print that here's the four 0:29:57.680 --> 0:30:00.520 biggest gainers, here's the four top new releases years to four, 0:30:00.600 --> 0:30:02.520 whatever the funk it was. There were sixteen albums on 0:30:02.560 --> 0:30:04.600 the cover, and then inside there would be comments from 0:30:04.600 --> 0:30:06.480 all different programmers and different things that were going on 0:30:06.480 --> 0:30:08.000 and whatever the well was. And in the back of 0:30:08.000 --> 0:30:10.480 the magazine they printed the playlist of all hundred and 0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:12.760 ninety rock stations in the country at the time. That's 0:30:12.760 --> 0:30:14.840 how many of there were. And they were very small, 0:30:14.880 --> 0:30:18.720 but my eyes were and it was really small, and 0:30:18.760 --> 0:30:20.560 plus I was smoking, we know, would just sit there 0:30:20.560 --> 0:30:21.920 and stare at these things. And I said, you know 0:30:21.920 --> 0:30:23.600 what if one if I can find and they would 0:30:23.600 --> 0:30:25.040 have the name of the radio station, the phone number, 0:30:25.040 --> 0:30:27.200 the name of the program director of music. Right, I said, 0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:29.240 if I can find one of these stations is playing 0:30:29.280 --> 0:30:32.240 an act it's not already signed, maybe that could be 0:30:32.360 --> 0:30:34.360 a break for me. You know. So that's interesting. You 0:30:34.400 --> 0:30:36.320 came up with that by yourself, Yeah, because that was 0:30:36.400 --> 0:30:39.560 Doug Morris this big thing to do research, etcetera. Ultimately, yeah, 0:30:39.560 --> 0:30:41.160 but he didn't even know me at that time. Like, 0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:43.280 you know, it's just funny. There's a parallel there. Okay, 0:30:43.280 --> 0:30:45.240 so you're looking for an unsigned act in the back 0:30:45.280 --> 0:30:47.000 of album network, right, And then I would call the 0:30:47.120 --> 0:30:49.280 radio station and pretend that I was somebody who's called 0:30:49.280 --> 0:30:51.200 they should take even though I was from Atlantic Racers. 0:30:51.280 --> 0:30:52.520 I wasn't going to tell him mom the fucking I 0:30:52.520 --> 0:30:53.920 didn't even have an office anymore. I had like a 0:30:54.040 --> 0:30:56.479 desk in whatever. And you know, half the time they 0:30:56.480 --> 0:30:58.240 wouldn't take my call. On another half of the time 0:30:58.280 --> 0:31:00.480 they would say, oh that Sacks already signed r C A. 0:31:00.560 --> 0:31:02.320 Would you know who are? You would waste my time? 0:31:02.360 --> 0:31:04.880 And I would be that So, as fate would have it, 0:31:06.320 --> 0:31:08.600 W B A B In Long Island was playing an 0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:12.880 act called The Lines. So I called up and I 0:31:12.920 --> 0:31:15.360 got the program director, Bob Buckman, who's still in the business, 0:31:15.360 --> 0:31:17.320 on the phone, and I said, Bob, what's with the Lines? 0:31:17.360 --> 0:31:19.240 He says, that's nothing. I put it on as a 0:31:19.280 --> 0:31:21.080 favorite to somebody. It's really nothing you need to be 0:31:21.080 --> 0:31:23.480 concerned with. So you hadn't even heard it. No, there 0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:27.480 was no way to hear it back then. So I said, well, 0:31:27.560 --> 0:31:29.320 and again, in an act of exactly what you were 0:31:29.320 --> 0:31:31.120 talking about a few minutes ago, I said to him, well, 0:31:31.240 --> 0:31:33.800 if you were me, who would you sign? Now, this 0:31:33.880 --> 0:31:36.440 was a ridiculous thing to say. I sign my fucking 0:31:36.520 --> 0:31:38.480 name half the time, right because I was too blitzed. 0:31:38.920 --> 0:31:42.280 So he says, he says, let me tell you about Zebra. 0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:44.800 I go, what Zebra? He goes, it's the most requested 0:31:44.800 --> 0:31:46.680 band at the radio station. I said, oh, you mean 0:31:46.720 --> 0:31:49.440 the most requested local band. He goes, genius. Hold on 0:31:49.480 --> 0:31:50.800 a second. I thought that was funny because my dad 0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:53.440 used to call me janius ironically since he actually was one. 0:31:53.480 --> 0:31:57.320 But anyway, so um, So he goes and gets the 0:31:57.400 --> 0:31:59.560 log because I used to actually track the request because 0:31:59.600 --> 0:32:01.320 kids would all the radio stations back there didn't have 0:32:01.360 --> 0:32:02.920 a lot of other ways of hearing their favorite song, 0:32:03.040 --> 0:32:04.920 especially if it wasn't out, but they would call on 0:32:05.040 --> 0:32:09.720 request everything. And so he comes back and he says, 0:32:09.760 --> 0:32:13.160 in the last quarter of the year, six percent of 0:32:13.200 --> 0:32:15.600 all the requests we came in were for zero. Number 0:32:15.640 --> 0:32:17.680 two was number two, Three and four I remember were 0:32:18.360 --> 0:32:21.280 some combination of AZZI, A C, D c and led Zeppelin, 0:32:21.480 --> 0:32:24.160 I don't know in which order. And I said, holy 0:32:24.200 --> 0:32:25.800 sh it, how do I get ahold of this? And 0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:27.240 he goes, hold on, I'll call the guys on the 0:32:27.240 --> 0:32:30.080 other phone. So there's no conference calling back then either, 0:32:30.520 --> 0:32:32.320 So he calls them. They lived in New Orleans and 0:32:32.320 --> 0:32:34.560 the singer's name was Randy Jackson, not the Randy Jackson 0:32:34.600 --> 0:32:37.320 that you know from TV or Journey or whatever. So 0:32:37.960 --> 0:32:39.920 he calls Randy. Now, these guys have been playing clubs 0:32:39.960 --> 0:32:41.520 for nine years, and they had given up on getting 0:32:41.520 --> 0:32:43.000 a record deal. But now they would play in New 0:32:43.080 --> 0:32:44.880 York in the summer because it was too hot in 0:32:44.880 --> 0:32:46.360 New Orleans, and then they would go back to New 0:32:46.440 --> 0:32:48.120 Orleans in the winter and they and they were one 0:32:48.160 --> 0:32:49.840 of the big band in both markets. They sounded a 0:32:49.880 --> 0:32:52.640 lot like led Zeppelin. And so the next day I 0:32:52.680 --> 0:32:54.960 get to my desk and there's a FedEx package on 0:32:55.000 --> 0:32:58.200 my desk. Now FedEx was relatively do but so I 0:32:58.240 --> 0:33:00.320 was very excited. It was glowing and I think it 0:33:00.400 --> 0:33:02.080 had an album in it. But I nowhere to play 0:33:02.080 --> 0:33:03.560 an album. So I went to one of the A 0:33:03.760 --> 0:33:05.600 R guys office as a guy name was a Zis 0:33:05.640 --> 0:33:08.479 cox Sell. He was on. It's nephew, and he's one 0:33:08.480 --> 0:33:11.240 of the guys whose job I wanted. So anyway, I 0:33:11.240 --> 0:33:12.760 said to him, you were about to hear the next 0:33:12.760 --> 0:33:14.440 big thing, and he says, really, did you listen to it? 0:33:14.440 --> 0:33:16.240 How's this? I said, no, no no, I'm just telling you right, 0:33:17.040 --> 0:33:19.920 And so he puts the record on. I can't even 0:33:19.960 --> 0:33:21.680 hear because I'm too excited, And at the end of it, 0:33:21.680 --> 0:33:24.400 he says, this is no good. It's no It's gave 0:33:24.480 --> 0:33:25.800 me five reasons why it was no good. So I 0:33:25.880 --> 0:33:27.400 go back to my desk and I'm calling Randy to 0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:29.040 tell him it's no good. And I'm halfway through dialing 0:33:29.040 --> 0:33:31.160 and I said to the assistant secretary whatever. He was 0:33:31.200 --> 0:33:32.640 sitting in front of me, Mary was her name. Eric 0:33:32.640 --> 0:33:35.680 Conroy said, Mary, how does this make any sense? I'm 0:33:35.760 --> 0:33:39.080 calling this guy to tell him his ship is no good. Meanwhile, 0:33:39.120 --> 0:33:41.200 he's the number one guy on the radio stage, number 0:33:41.240 --> 0:33:42.720 one band a race, and it's selling out all these 0:33:43.040 --> 0:33:44.680 what he goes doesn't make his sense to me either, 0:33:44.680 --> 0:33:46.360 So I call him. Obviously, Randy, listen, this guy said 0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:47.960 no good for all these different reasons. But I'm gonna 0:33:47.960 --> 0:33:49.320 give it to Doug Morris and see what he says. 0:33:49.320 --> 0:33:51.160 So Doug was the President Atlantic at the time. So 0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:53.120 I made a cassette of it. I wrapped it up 0:33:53.120 --> 0:33:54.840 in a piece of paper and put a rubber band, 0:33:54.840 --> 0:33:57.880 and I went to Doug's assistance, you know, desk, and 0:33:57.960 --> 0:34:00.120 I put it on top of this other wall, all 0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:01.840 of cassettes that he was never gonna listen to that 0:34:01.880 --> 0:34:07.280 other people were hoping he would listen to. And as again, destiny, fate, serendipity, 0:34:07.320 --> 0:34:09.319 whatever you want to call it, kis met synchronicity. He 0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:11.040 happens to pull a few of these things off her 0:34:11.080 --> 0:34:13.160 desk to take on his drive home to Long Island, 0:34:13.200 --> 0:34:16.280 where he lived, and he's listening to Zebra in the car. 0:34:16.960 --> 0:34:19.239 Who's behind the Door was a song. He decides he 0:34:19.280 --> 0:34:20.799 doesn't like it, and he pops it out of the 0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:23.720 take deck and it's playing on the fucking radio. Because 0:34:23.719 --> 0:34:25.560 he lived in Long Island and everybody lived a long 0:34:25.600 --> 0:34:27.960 and listen to W B A B. So the thing 0:34:28.239 --> 0:34:32.040 He's like, what the so? So the DJ at the 0:34:32.120 --> 0:34:34.120 end of the song says, that's the most requested song 0:34:34.200 --> 0:34:37.000 in the history of W B a B. Zebra Who's 0:34:37.040 --> 0:34:39.080 behind the Door? Now the perfect guy to hear that 0:34:39.120 --> 0:34:41.320 was Doug Morris. Because Doug is the guy who taught 0:34:41.320 --> 0:34:43.080 every one of the music business how to do research. 0:34:43.680 --> 0:34:46.640 So he built a huge one of the most important 0:34:46.640 --> 0:34:49.560 careers in the history music on research, largely, I mean 0:34:49.880 --> 0:34:54.600 so and other things. So he comes in the next day. 0:34:54.960 --> 0:34:56.560 They were allowing me by now to sit in the 0:34:56.560 --> 0:34:58.640 A and R meetings. And because I would do research, 0:34:58.680 --> 0:35:01.839 somebody would say, I like this spanned from Iowa called 0:35:01.920 --> 0:35:04.120 Mackinaw and I'd say, they said, Jason called some of 0:35:04.120 --> 0:35:05.920 the stores, there are the clubs, and find anybody likes 0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:10.360 this group. So we're sitting in this meeting and somebody's 0:35:10.360 --> 0:35:13.080 talking about something and Doug goes, wait a minute, what's zebra? 0:35:14.520 --> 0:35:16.680 And I'm sitting there, you know, having like I don't. 0:35:16.719 --> 0:35:20.080 I'm I'm stunned. And he goes, this is genius and 0:35:20.120 --> 0:35:22.680 I was like huh. And he goes, fly these kids 0:35:22.719 --> 0:35:25.040 up here on a meeting. So that's how it all started, 0:35:25.080 --> 0:35:26.880 and it was a crazy process from there too. But 0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:29.160 the great thing was that the man had built up 0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:32.160 so much that when the record came out, it was 0:35:32.239 --> 0:35:34.760 like it was literally midnight. Man. His kids all cut school, 0:35:34.800 --> 0:35:36.759 they came records came out on Mondays in those days, 0:35:37.280 --> 0:35:39.239 and the kids all cut school and we went to 0:35:39.280 --> 0:35:40.680 the store and they were pulling them out of the 0:35:40.719 --> 0:35:42.960 boxes before the guy could even stamp the price on them. 0:35:43.280 --> 0:35:45.239 And they were buying two or three copies at once, 0:35:45.320 --> 0:35:48.160 and it became a big out of the box smash 0:35:48.280 --> 0:35:50.120 in these two markets. And and and all of a sudden, 0:35:50.120 --> 0:35:51.480 they were like, Hey, this kid must know what he's doing. 0:35:51.520 --> 0:35:52.680 Let's give them a job doing and R and I 0:35:52.680 --> 0:35:55.040 was like, thank you. And that's how it started. Okay, 0:35:55.040 --> 0:35:58.359 how long after you started Atlantic did that transition take place. 0:35:58.400 --> 0:36:00.640 It's only a couple of years. I was in college. Okay, 0:36:00.640 --> 0:36:03.480 so how long did you go to college? For? Two years? 0:36:03.520 --> 0:36:06.520 In change? And how did college end? My dad said 0:36:06.520 --> 0:36:08.439 to me, you're better I had two records on the charts, 0:36:08.440 --> 0:36:09.920 and he said, you're better off doing one thing right 0:36:09.920 --> 0:36:11.359 than two things wrong. And I was like, thanks dad, 0:36:11.360 --> 0:36:12.480 I'm out of here. And by the way, here's a 0:36:12.480 --> 0:36:15.600 platinum twisted sister record. I actually gave him the platinum 0:36:15.600 --> 0:36:17.400 that was that was the first platinum than a C 0:36:17.520 --> 0:36:19.000 D C, which I you know, it was a totally 0:36:19.000 --> 0:36:20.760 different thing because it was for an ad I designed, 0:36:20.760 --> 0:36:23.719 but um, I gave him the first platinum Twisted Sister, 0:36:23.760 --> 0:36:25.680 which would stay Hungry, on the condition that he hanged 0:36:25.719 --> 0:36:27.480 in his office and hung in his office for his 0:36:27.640 --> 0:36:30.120 entire life. Really, and what was the other record that 0:36:30.160 --> 0:36:34.279 was successful? Zebra was the first one, but you said 0:36:34.280 --> 0:36:36.600 there were two projects? Was one of them Zebra? How 0:36:36.640 --> 0:36:39.640 far did Zebra go? That went gold? And then my friend? 0:36:39.680 --> 0:36:42.560 Then the second record? Unfortunately Jack Douglas was the producer, 0:36:42.560 --> 0:36:45.399 and Jack was a mess, and he he was really 0:36:45.400 --> 0:36:47.360 losing it. John Lennon had been his best friend and 0:36:47.440 --> 0:36:50.680 John had been killed and he was going through a 0:36:50.800 --> 0:36:54.399 terrible period and he really it was. And by the way, 0:36:54.400 --> 0:36:58.360 making the Zebra record was an insane, insane experience too, 0:36:58.640 --> 0:37:01.760 because Jack was all ready in this you know state, 0:37:01.920 --> 0:37:04.040 and now I had gone. You know what happened was 0:37:04.360 --> 0:37:07.080 you hired Jack because he did all the legendary Aerosmith records. 0:37:07.239 --> 0:37:09.919 So yeah, what happened was Doug had gotten cold feet 0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:11.440 at a certain point and I would come home at 0:37:11.480 --> 0:37:13.000 night and say, Dad, I don't understand what do I do? 0:37:13.040 --> 0:37:15.319 How do I go back to this? And to give 0:37:15.320 --> 0:37:17.239 me advice how to approach him every day and say 0:37:17.239 --> 0:37:19.440 something different but finally I decided, I gotta get this 0:37:19.600 --> 0:37:22.000 off the dime. So I went and I gotta called 0:37:22.080 --> 0:37:24.440 Jack Douglas. He just won the Grammy for Double Fantasie. 0:37:24.719 --> 0:37:26.320 I figured, if I can get the biggest producer in 0:37:26.360 --> 0:37:27.799 the world to agree to do this, then maybe I 0:37:27.800 --> 0:37:29.920 can get this group to finally get signed. And I 0:37:29.960 --> 0:37:32.320 got him. I convinced his manager to get him to 0:37:32.360 --> 0:37:33.960 come to a show with me. I remember, I rented 0:37:33.960 --> 0:37:35.400 like a tiny little car. Was the only thing I 0:37:35.400 --> 0:37:36.840 could get, like a hand done. I drove him to 0:37:36.880 --> 0:37:38.840 Long Island and he agreed to produce the record. I 0:37:38.880 --> 0:37:40.320 wanted him because you're right, because he had done the 0:37:40.360 --> 0:37:43.080 greatest Aero sprint albums and the band loved the John 0:37:43.120 --> 0:37:46.120 Lennon album, so it was perfect. Well, we didn't realize 0:37:46.120 --> 0:37:48.560 is that Jack was now like three sheets to the wind. 0:37:48.680 --> 0:37:51.480 He was he was just so devastated and twisted up 0:37:51.480 --> 0:37:55.359 by by the horrible, untimely death of his best friend 0:37:55.360 --> 0:37:58.319 and hero, John Lennon. And you know, he would book 0:37:58.360 --> 0:38:01.239 a session for Tuesday and show up on Thursday and 0:38:01.280 --> 0:38:03.960 not call anyone, and the band would sleep in the 0:38:04.000 --> 0:38:06.239 studio and meanwhile it was record planned and we were 0:38:06.239 --> 0:38:08.000 just getting built and building build, and the prices are 0:38:08.200 --> 0:38:09.759 going up and up and up, and I'll never forget. 0:38:09.840 --> 0:38:12.320 One day, Doug comes to my office. Now, the budget 0:38:12.360 --> 0:38:14.160 for the albums a hundred and thirty thousand, which back 0:38:14.160 --> 0:38:16.400 then was a lot, right because Jack was getting fifty 0:38:16.440 --> 0:38:18.560 five thousand, so it sounds like nothing. These people get 0:38:18.560 --> 0:38:20.839 fifty track right right back then it was a lot. 0:38:21.040 --> 0:38:23.040 So Doug comes to my office one day, slams the 0:38:23.040 --> 0:38:25.279 door shut and starts banging his fists on the table. 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:27.840 And Doug's an intimidating guy. You know they've given me 0:38:28.440 --> 0:38:31.560 an office by now, um I remember my first whatever, 0:38:31.600 --> 0:38:34.480 tiny office. And he's like, what the fund is going 0:38:34.520 --> 0:38:37.239 on with this thing? The records over budget already, there's 0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:39.960 not even any tracks. What he's screaming, and he know 0:38:40.040 --> 0:38:42.239 his neck with the bald ducks, muscles are budging out 0:38:42.280 --> 0:38:43.879 of his neck and stuff. And I'm sitting He goes, 0:38:43.920 --> 0:38:46.200 you call this Jack Douglas, motherfucker, and you tell him 0:38:46.200 --> 0:38:48.680 get his ship together right fucking now. And he leaves 0:38:48.719 --> 0:38:52.200 my office and I'm sitting there, going, Okay, let's process this. 0:38:52.400 --> 0:38:55.520 I just got out of high school. I'm gonna call 0:38:55.560 --> 0:38:58.279 it Jack Douglas and go listen, Jack, you know what 0:38:58.320 --> 0:39:02.480 you're dealing with your like, he says, And I remember 0:39:02.600 --> 0:39:06.480 that the unbelievable story. So finally the records that were 0:39:06.760 --> 0:39:09.960 almost two hundred and thirty thousand dollars spent and they're mixing, 0:39:10.520 --> 0:39:12.200 and I was at the record plan on the tenth 0:39:12.200 --> 0:39:15.040 floor and we're in the studio and Jack was hearing 0:39:15.080 --> 0:39:18.040 noises that didn't exist right. So he had three track 0:39:18.080 --> 0:39:22.120 boards strunk strunk together. There were there were shrimp talking 0:39:22.239 --> 0:39:25.240 and and and whales barking and things in the tracks 0:39:25.239 --> 0:39:27.160 that you know, no one could hear except him. But 0:39:27.280 --> 0:39:29.000 we had all these things funking. And in those days 0:39:29.040 --> 0:39:31.080 there was no automation. So everyone's got their hands on 0:39:31.120 --> 0:39:32.279 the boards and I don't know what I'm doing, but 0:39:32.320 --> 0:39:34.560 everyone's doing something. And the manager of the record Plank 0:39:34.600 --> 0:39:37.240 I me. Mitch comes in the studio and says Jack. 0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:40.000 It was ten to four on a Tuesday, and he goes, Jack, 0:39:40.080 --> 0:39:43.120 you're done. I've had it with your bullshit. You're out 0:39:43.120 --> 0:39:45.880 of here. The fucking Record Atlantic pulled the plug, the 0:39:45.960 --> 0:39:48.680 records canceled, get the funk out of my studio. Because 0:39:48.680 --> 0:39:51.080 he'd had it right and so, and I'm sitting here 0:39:51.120 --> 0:39:54.440 watching this hero of mine being screamed at by the 0:39:54.440 --> 0:39:56.560 genleman of the record plan. And I'm also watching my 0:39:56.600 --> 0:39:59.080 career go up and smoke right because Atlantics pulling the 0:39:59.120 --> 0:40:00.839 plug on the only record I'm ever going to sign. 0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:04.400 And so Jack goes, give me ten more minutes to 0:40:04.400 --> 0:40:06.719 finish the album. I need ten fucking minutes. And I'm like, 0:40:07.920 --> 0:40:09.680 you imagine, like in a fig POC match, right, My 0:40:09.719 --> 0:40:11.640 head's going back, and what am I supposed to do? 0:40:11.960 --> 0:40:14.080 So the guy says, You've got ten minutes to finish 0:40:14.120 --> 0:40:17.839 this album. Obviously ridiculous, And so they barricaded the door, 0:40:18.040 --> 0:40:20.759 like Jack literally barricaded the door. There were two doors 0:40:20.760 --> 0:40:22.560 to the studio, but there was a step that you 0:40:22.560 --> 0:40:24.040 would walk in and you'd go up a step, and 0:40:24.040 --> 0:40:25.800 people who were in the studio back then, I'll remember, 0:40:25.800 --> 0:40:27.680 and this is a legendary studio too. This is where 0:40:27.719 --> 0:40:29.600 Stephen wrote the lyrics to some of the aerospace songs 0:40:29.600 --> 0:40:31.520 on the walls. So we barricaded the studio with an 0:40:31.520 --> 0:40:33.359 eight track machine or wherever it was a multi track 0:40:33.440 --> 0:40:35.719 machine that door, and then there were was a ROADI 0:40:35.840 --> 0:40:37.600 or two roadies holding the other door. Shut, and that's 0:40:37.600 --> 0:40:39.160 how we finished the record. I mean it went on 0:40:39.239 --> 0:40:40.799 like that all day, with banging on the door, and 0:40:40.840 --> 0:40:42.719 but the record came out and nothing really happened. No, 0:40:42.800 --> 0:40:44.680 it exploded because all the kids have been waiting for 0:40:44.680 --> 0:40:46.719 the record to be released, so it exploded out of 0:40:46.719 --> 0:40:48.799 the gate. It was number one selling record and in 0:40:48.880 --> 0:40:50.920 like record town and all these different stores, and then 0:40:50.960 --> 0:40:52.719 everyone's running around the hallways thinking I know what the 0:40:52.760 --> 0:41:00.479 funk I'm doing. It was awesome. Hi, everyone ob left 0:41:00.480 --> 0:41:02.239 sex here. I just wanted to take a moment and 0:41:02.280 --> 0:41:06.080 thank you for listening to my podcast. I'm humbled by 0:41:06.120 --> 0:41:08.160 the initial response of the podcast, and I've been able 0:41:08.200 --> 0:41:11.279 to line up some excellent guests in future episodes. I 0:41:11.320 --> 0:41:14.520 can't wait to share those and hear the podcast evolved. 0:41:14.520 --> 0:41:16.480 I think you're in for a treat, so be sure 0:41:16.520 --> 0:41:19.759 to subscribe, leave reviews. Tell your Friend's gonna be a 0:41:19.760 --> 0:41:25.600 big year. Now more with Jason Flong. So tell the 0:41:25.640 --> 0:41:30.640 Twisted Sister Story. So Twisted Sisters story, which has been, uh, 0:41:30.680 --> 0:41:33.520 you know, a subject of some um you know debate 0:41:33.600 --> 0:41:36.560 in your and your letter. Phil Carson has a different view. 0:41:36.600 --> 0:41:39.000 I've heard of your viewpoint, but I thought you. You know, 0:41:40.120 --> 0:41:42.040 it's just tell the story through your eyes. The only 0:41:42.040 --> 0:41:44.319 thing we're arguing about his semantics. What happened is not 0:41:44.400 --> 0:41:46.919 in dispute right. What happened was Randy from Zebra says 0:41:46.920 --> 0:41:49.400 to be one day Flom Twisted Sister is the greatest 0:41:49.440 --> 0:41:51.759 live band in the world. He goes, we can't touch him, 0:41:51.800 --> 0:41:53.360 and neither can anyone else. And I was like, I 0:41:53.360 --> 0:41:54.800 gotta go see this now. I had bought one of 0:41:54.840 --> 0:41:57.280 their records when I was in high school, a disco 0:41:57.320 --> 0:41:59.319 bad I bought. I think it was shoot him down 0:41:59.440 --> 0:42:01.560 or I'll never go up now. And so I knew 0:42:01.560 --> 0:42:03.520 about the band, but it didn't occur to me as 0:42:03.600 --> 0:42:06.440 something that, you know, whatever. So Wednesday night nid Hudson 0:42:06.480 --> 0:42:08.919 Civic Center in Poughkeepsie, two hours north of New York City, 0:42:08.920 --> 0:42:11.440 Twist the Sister's headlining and opening a Zebra and d 0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:13.440 C Star. I thought it was odds, but has a 0:42:13.480 --> 0:42:16.680 record deal with Sister, doesn't three thousand kids on a 0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:19.239 Wednesday night at six bucks Ahead, I go up there. 0:42:19.239 --> 0:42:22.319 That allowed me to stand on the stage. D comes out, 0:42:22.400 --> 0:42:24.560 the band come did plighted applause for d C Star 0:42:24.600 --> 0:42:27.080 and Zebra, and then they come out, and the places 0:42:27.200 --> 0:42:30.759 on fire, right, and and the kids are roaring, and 0:42:30.880 --> 0:42:33.600 d comes out and he goes, all right, New York 0:42:33.680 --> 0:42:35.719 fucking city or Pokeepsie ever he says. He goes, we 0:42:35.800 --> 0:42:38.839 just got back from fucking England. We're sick and fucking tired. 0:42:38.920 --> 0:42:41.520 Here in those line me, motherfucker's telling us how bloody 0:42:41.560 --> 0:42:43.279 good we are. He goes, what do you New York 0:42:43.360 --> 0:42:46.520 motherfuckers have to say? And three thousand kids I swear 0:42:46.520 --> 0:42:48.719 about throw their fists in the air and go twisted, 0:42:49.040 --> 0:42:52.040 fucking sister. And I was like, I'm done right, right, 0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:54.440 I don't care who cares what they do after that 0:42:54.520 --> 0:42:57.319 doesn't matter, because Doug had now taught me right. Doug 0:42:57.320 --> 0:42:59.640 had taught me that your opinion is secondary to the 0:42:59.640 --> 0:43:02.960 public opinion, right, which he taught half of the music business. 0:43:03.520 --> 0:43:06.120 And Monty of course became Monte Davery became the greatest. 0:43:06.520 --> 0:43:08.680 They took his advice and turned it into the number 0:43:08.680 --> 0:43:14.319 one label in the world. So they they performed. It 0:43:14.440 --> 0:43:17.799 was phenomenal because they had done thousands of shows by 0:43:17.800 --> 0:43:21.200 now they were great. And I got back to the city. 0:43:21.200 --> 0:43:23.839 Every rode back with JJ. I got back to the city. 0:43:23.840 --> 0:43:26.400 I think I got two hours of sleep, and I 0:43:26.520 --> 0:43:29.640 walked into the Doug's office in the morning on two 0:43:29.640 --> 0:43:31.799 hours of sleep and three kinds of God knows what, 0:43:32.080 --> 0:43:35.520 and I said to him, I found religion last night. 0:43:36.120 --> 0:43:38.480 And he goes, what the are you talking about? You 0:43:38.480 --> 0:43:40.759 know how there's that dichotomy when somebody's wide away your 0:43:40.760 --> 0:43:45.279 half asleep. I go, Twisted Sister, He just get the 0:43:45.280 --> 0:43:46.759 funk out of my office and by the way go home. 0:43:46.840 --> 0:43:49.960 He looked like shit, and I was like, Huh, that 0:43:50.000 --> 0:43:52.560 didn't go the way I planned, you know. So I 0:43:52.640 --> 0:43:56.480 kept coming back to him, uh, every day with another story. 0:43:56.520 --> 0:43:58.600 But I didn't realize that Twisted Sister was considered a 0:43:58.640 --> 0:44:00.640 joke by the entire music industry at this point, which 0:44:00.640 --> 0:44:02.160 would made no sense to me. The next night, I 0:44:02.160 --> 0:44:04.640 went to South Jersey to see him, which is to 0:44:04.640 --> 0:44:06.919 give people who don't know the area an idea. Two 0:44:07.000 --> 0:44:10.160 hundred and something miles away and there were thirty seven 0:44:10.239 --> 0:44:12.560 hundred kids at the Fountain Casino and I was like, 0:44:12.920 --> 0:44:16.480 this comes with instructions, right, So I said, but I 0:44:16.480 --> 0:44:18.319 would go back to him every day, and every day 0:44:18.320 --> 0:44:20.880 he'd thrown me out of his office, and it finally, 0:44:21.360 --> 0:44:25.960 um it finally hit a low point um when and 0:44:26.080 --> 0:44:27.880 this and the record was selling like crazy. They did 0:44:27.920 --> 0:44:30.719 independent record on secret records, and at one point w 0:44:30.840 --> 0:44:32.880 p LJ in New York City started playing it. And 0:44:32.920 --> 0:44:34.640 I remember going to Dave Glue, who was the general 0:44:34.680 --> 0:44:36.600 manager of I would go everybody for advice. I couldn't 0:44:36.600 --> 0:44:38.960 figure it out why everybody hated them so much. And 0:44:39.239 --> 0:44:42.600 then Christmas one particular year, we have a meeting of 0:44:42.640 --> 0:44:44.560 the in our department. Now, this was the worst year 0:44:44.760 --> 0:44:46.720 Atlantic had had in a long time, which had followed 0:44:46.719 --> 0:44:48.520 the best year right the previous year they had five 0:44:48.560 --> 0:44:50.960 the top ten records. They had Genesis and Stevie Nicks 0:44:51.000 --> 0:44:53.680 and Foreigner and the Rolling Stones and Yes, and this 0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:55.400 year none of the big axe made records and we 0:44:55.400 --> 0:44:57.480 didn't break anything, and it was a disaster. So Doug 0:44:57.480 --> 0:44:59.640 gave us a raw Ross. Speci was greated to ship 0:45:00.200 --> 0:45:02.640 and he says, everybody together though in our department, we're 0:45:02.680 --> 0:45:04.160 going to sink or swim or a team or this 0:45:04.320 --> 0:45:06.799 without whatever. He says. But Jason, if I ever hear 0:45:06.880 --> 0:45:09.720 the name Twisted Sister again, you will never work another 0:45:09.800 --> 0:45:12.920 day at this record company. And I was like, hmm, 0:45:13.080 --> 0:45:18.759 that was pretty straightforward. Um, So I didn't know what 0:45:18.880 --> 0:45:21.520 to do next. But shortly thereafter I saw a guy 0:45:21.600 --> 0:45:23.680 named Phil Carson in the hallway. Now he didn't know me, 0:45:23.800 --> 0:45:25.880 but I knew he was because he was a legend already. 0:45:26.400 --> 0:45:28.720 He was a generation ahead of me. He had signed 0:45:28.760 --> 0:45:30.839 from what I understood, a C D C. I think, 0:45:30.880 --> 0:45:34.880 maybe yes, Um, I mean like crazy shit, you know, 0:45:35.040 --> 0:45:36.920 like some off the way, And I knew he was 0:45:36.920 --> 0:45:39.279 ahead of the English company. So I went up to 0:45:39.360 --> 0:45:41.759 Mr Carson, I handed him to Cassette. I handed him 0:45:41.800 --> 0:45:45.280 a whole sheets and sheets of information about the sales 0:45:45.360 --> 0:45:47.680 and the tickets and the things and the whatever and 0:45:47.760 --> 0:45:52.600 the sucking. And then, um, I don't know how long ago, 0:45:52.680 --> 0:45:54.760 maybe a month later, he calls me up one morning 0:45:54.840 --> 0:45:57.000 from England and he says, I saw a twisted sister 0:45:57.160 --> 0:45:59.520 last night. They're the best thing I've seen since a 0:45:59.600 --> 0:46:01.759 C D. And I'm gonna sign him. And I said, 0:46:01.800 --> 0:46:03.719 what are you gonna do about America? And he says, 0:46:03.719 --> 0:46:05.520 don't worry, I'll get some to put it out now. 0:46:05.680 --> 0:46:08.600 I find out later that he apparently took the whole 0:46:08.640 --> 0:46:10.880 thing that I had painstakingly put together and given to 0:46:10.960 --> 0:46:12.279 him and through in the garbage because he didn't know 0:46:12.280 --> 0:46:14.080 who I was. But then it was a coincidence, another 0:46:14.120 --> 0:46:17.040 great coincidence, because my life is synchronicity and coincidence and serendipity. 0:46:17.120 --> 0:46:18.880 And they happened to be opening the show that he 0:46:19.000 --> 0:46:21.040 was at. May have been foreign or I don't know who, 0:46:21.400 --> 0:46:23.520 and he saw them as a result of that, and 0:46:23.640 --> 0:46:26.800 he saw the vision. And then two Doug's everlasting credit. 0:46:26.880 --> 0:46:28.400 You know, the first record came out. It's called you 0:46:28.440 --> 0:46:30.200 Can't Stop Rock and Roll and it sold a hundred 0:46:30.239 --> 0:46:32.200 thousand copies in America. Now you can imagine it came out. 0:46:32.520 --> 0:46:34.880 Could you make a lower priority than the right? He 0:46:34.960 --> 0:46:36.319 had to put it out as a favor to fill, 0:46:37.000 --> 0:46:39.600 but I still wasn't allowed to mention it. But I 0:46:39.719 --> 0:46:41.800 was calling all the local reps and everybody else, and 0:46:42.560 --> 0:46:44.320 which I also wasn't allowed to do. I'll get in 0:46:44.360 --> 0:46:47.239 trouble at least once a week for that and uh. 0:46:48.120 --> 0:46:50.200 And the record sold a hundred thousand on fumes. And 0:46:50.280 --> 0:46:52.040 then when day Doug calls me his off and he says, 0:46:52.120 --> 0:46:54.520 you were right, and we're going to make a big 0:46:54.560 --> 0:46:56.560 thing out of this band. And then Doug had the 0:46:56.680 --> 0:46:59.920 vision to hire Tom Wormon to get Marty calling there 0:47:00.000 --> 0:47:03.000 to direct those what became some of the most dilegendary 0:47:03.080 --> 0:47:05.239 videos of all time. Yeah, the first ones I think 0:47:05.280 --> 0:47:07.400 that had um, you know, had talking, you know, I 0:47:07.480 --> 0:47:10.160 had like movies Janor Meyer and all that thing, and 0:47:10.280 --> 0:47:12.239 you know, what do you want to do with your life? 0:47:13.120 --> 0:47:15.800 So dog really masterminded. And that album sold six million copies, 0:47:16.160 --> 0:47:18.920 so you know, so anyway it's been you know, it 0:47:19.040 --> 0:47:21.359 was an amazing thing to be a part of. UM. 0:47:22.200 --> 0:47:25.359 And uh, unfortunately they crashed and burned on the next record. 0:47:25.400 --> 0:47:27.040 They didn't want to use Tom Worman again, which I 0:47:27.120 --> 0:47:29.880 never understood. As little as I did understand back then, 0:47:29.920 --> 0:47:31.440 it didn't make sense to me that you wouldn't dance 0:47:31.480 --> 0:47:35.040 with who brought you to the dance. Um, But it 0:47:35.160 --> 0:47:39.000 went horribly wrong, and um, the next album didn't sell anything, 0:47:39.080 --> 0:47:41.360 and ultimately they broke up. So, okay, what were some 0:47:41.440 --> 0:47:43.839 of your successes and failures after that? Well, so then 0:47:43.960 --> 0:47:45.920 came a girl named Fiona. She just not called talk 0:47:45.960 --> 0:47:46.920 to me. There was a half a hit, so all 0:47:46.920 --> 0:47:49.400 of a sudden, I was basically three for three. But 0:47:49.480 --> 0:47:53.440 then I started getting messed up. You know, Um, this 0:47:53.600 --> 0:47:55.880 was a time of great excess in the music industry 0:47:55.960 --> 0:47:58.239 and it caught up to me and I ended up 0:47:58.280 --> 0:48:01.640 going to rehab. Doug. Doug pretty much forced me to 0:48:01.680 --> 0:48:04.160 go to rehab, which again I mean, I owe my 0:48:04.280 --> 0:48:06.319 life as a result because I don't think i'd be here, 0:48:07.080 --> 0:48:10.239 and um, you know, I went not knowing what the 0:48:10.280 --> 0:48:12.000 fact we have wasn't a big thing back. I remember 0:48:12.000 --> 0:48:13.480 telling my mom was going to rehab, and she was 0:48:13.480 --> 0:48:15.239 wondering if I was gonna come out like with wearing 0:48:15.280 --> 0:48:17.600 a smock and a banging and tambourine at the port authority, 0:48:17.600 --> 0:48:18.759 you know what I mean. Like she was like with 0:48:18.920 --> 0:48:20.640 sandals on a one piece of hair eaging off the 0:48:20.640 --> 0:48:22.759 back of my head, you know. So it was not 0:48:23.000 --> 0:48:25.520 part of the vernacular, you know, or the culture. But 0:48:25.640 --> 0:48:27.640 I went and I came out and I was a 0:48:27.680 --> 0:48:29.879 little woozy. But all of a sudden, like White Line 0:48:29.880 --> 0:48:31.400 had made an album while I was in the studio 0:48:31.880 --> 0:48:35.520 and it came out doing nothing, and then one radio 0:48:35.560 --> 0:48:37.480 station broke that album, a station called k j j 0:48:37.640 --> 0:48:39.920 O in Minneapolis started playing it and exploded off that 0:48:40.040 --> 0:48:43.920 station that I signed skid Row an escape club around 0:48:43.960 --> 0:48:46.640 that time, and Tori Amos of course, which was you know, 0:48:46.800 --> 0:48:49.160 looking back, one of my proudest signings and also one 0:48:49.200 --> 0:48:50.759 that's had a lot of meaning in my life in 0:48:50.800 --> 0:48:52.799 a lot of very odd and interesting ways. And then 0:48:52.920 --> 0:48:54.319 eventually they made me the head of the n ART 0:48:54.360 --> 0:48:57.600 Department and around Okay, did you have any failures? Of course, 0:48:57.880 --> 0:48:59.560 I don't remember all of them, a lot of them. 0:48:59.680 --> 0:49:02.160 I mean, everybody does. Nobody got nobody bouts four hundred. 0:49:03.160 --> 0:49:06.040 Um so it's like baseball if you about in the 0:49:06.080 --> 0:49:08.200 Hall of Fame and nobody remembers the misses as long 0:49:08.239 --> 0:49:11.799 as you have big hits. So um so they made 0:49:11.840 --> 0:49:13.680 me the head of the n R Department, and then 0:49:13.760 --> 0:49:16.000 we went on this crazy role. Um. A guy named 0:49:16.040 --> 0:49:17.600 Tom Caroline who was in the Ark I brought me 0:49:17.640 --> 0:49:21.480 Stone Tumble Pilots and I jumped on a plane right away. Um. 0:49:21.600 --> 0:49:23.320 This is when Danny Goldberg could first come in, and 0:49:23.360 --> 0:49:25.280 we roped him in because he had the old cred. 0:49:25.520 --> 0:49:28.400 You know. Um, I'm not sure you know how he 0:49:28.480 --> 0:49:30.279 really felt about the music, but he went and sold 0:49:30.320 --> 0:49:33.480 it real good. And um so we signed Stone Tumble 0:49:33.480 --> 0:49:35.760 of Pilots. And around that time was Hoodie and the Blowfish, 0:49:35.800 --> 0:49:37.640 and I remember going to see Jewel when she was 0:49:37.800 --> 0:49:39.879 had like five people in a coffee shop in San 0:49:39.920 --> 0:49:44.120 Diego and with a cappuccino machine. And I went back 0:49:44.160 --> 0:49:46.080 two months later and there were three hundred people there 0:49:46.120 --> 0:49:48.840 and silent, you know, just staring at her like she 0:49:49.000 --> 0:49:51.080 was a you know, a combination of a ghost and 0:49:51.120 --> 0:49:53.120 a god. I mean it was it was beautiful. Um. 0:49:53.400 --> 0:49:57.120 And so we had this this amazing string of successes. Um. 0:49:57.719 --> 0:50:00.799 I'm leaving some out. But and and it's worth noting 0:50:00.840 --> 0:50:03.040 that I'd signed Sabotage actually before I went to rehab, 0:50:03.440 --> 0:50:05.600 because we know how that ended up. But they end 0:50:05.680 --> 0:50:08.040 up with tuxedos playing Christmas music and calling himself Trans 0:50:08.040 --> 0:50:11.080 Siberian Orchestra. But that's a different story. But okay, so 0:50:11.360 --> 0:50:13.960 he tell us how it evolves into Lava. So what 0:50:14.080 --> 0:50:20.960 happened was I believe that they Um, the perception was 0:50:21.080 --> 0:50:24.960 that music was changing. And this you'll remember this, this Caroline, 0:50:25.080 --> 0:50:27.200 the sound was like all the rage all aside. Everybody 0:50:27.239 --> 0:50:29.720 wanted to sign Super Chunk and all these type of bands, 0:50:29.840 --> 0:50:34.839 right and uh, and so they hired a guy named 0:50:34.920 --> 0:50:37.239 Jay Farris, who was in from that scene. You had 0:50:37.239 --> 0:50:40.160 a company called Mammoth Records. I didn't I didn't know 0:50:40.239 --> 0:50:42.160 why would they would do that, but they did. And 0:50:42.200 --> 0:50:44.080 then they decided to move me aside and let him 0:50:44.120 --> 0:50:47.560 run the an our apartment. So they gave me the 0:50:47.640 --> 0:50:52.239 opportunity to restart at CO Records. And I didn't want 0:50:52.239 --> 0:50:53.800 to do that. It sounded I said to Doug, it 0:50:53.840 --> 0:50:55.640 sounds old to me. You know, can I can I 0:50:55.800 --> 0:50:57.520 name the thing myself? You said sure. So I came 0:50:57.600 --> 0:51:00.360 up with the name lava because it's hot. Also I 0:51:00.440 --> 0:51:02.440 was thinking about, you know, great forces of nature, like 0:51:02.480 --> 0:51:04.200 the Atlantic, and of course lava is hot and it 0:51:04.320 --> 0:51:07.080 flows and it destroys everything that's path and it sounds 0:51:07.080 --> 0:51:08.680 like love. And you wanted a short name back then 0:51:08.719 --> 0:51:10.719 because c ds were coming in and you know, you 0:51:10.760 --> 0:51:14.120 couldn't see a long name. So so I started Lava. 0:51:14.160 --> 0:51:15.600 And I think they said, okay, but they gave you 0:51:15.800 --> 0:51:17.920 a good deal or that, you know, they gave me 0:51:17.960 --> 0:51:20.840 a terrible deal. And they gave me They sent me 0:51:20.920 --> 0:51:22.759 up to fail. I mean they I didn't know it 0:51:22.800 --> 0:51:24.800 at the time, but they gave me three ability to 0:51:24.880 --> 0:51:30.120 hire three people, very small budget, no acts and um 0:51:30.520 --> 0:51:31.920 and I had no idea what the funk I was doing. 0:51:32.000 --> 0:51:35.400 I don't know how to start a business. So I 0:51:35.480 --> 0:51:42.080 think that's nineties five or six. And uh, I wouldn't 0:51:42.080 --> 0:51:45.080 asked for advice from anybody I could think of, um 0:51:45.200 --> 0:51:48.440 who had had this experience. UM and uh. You know 0:51:48.520 --> 0:51:50.400 there's that great saying fake until you make it right. 0:51:50.880 --> 0:51:53.160 And so I hired a women and Valerie DeLong. She 0:51:53.280 --> 0:51:57.000 was like my right hand and we um we started 0:51:57.040 --> 0:51:58.880 off and we started off good. I mean one of 0:51:58.880 --> 0:52:00.719 the first acts I signed was that when McCain it 0:52:00.800 --> 0:52:03.640 was brought to me by Kim Stevens UM who was 0:52:03.680 --> 0:52:08.799 a promotion guy at at Atlantic who had an air 0:52:08.880 --> 0:52:10.880 for talent. He had brought me Collective Soul earlier. He 0:52:10.920 --> 0:52:12.600 had also brought in seven Mary three, which I didn't 0:52:12.600 --> 0:52:14.719 sign because I couldn't stand them. But they had to 0:52:14.800 --> 0:52:19.759 hit anyway, um ironically on Mammoth and uh. And then 0:52:19.920 --> 0:52:22.200 Jill Sabiel had a half a hit, and Sieve had 0:52:22.239 --> 0:52:24.080 a half a hit, and Biff Naked had a half 0:52:24.120 --> 0:52:26.000 a hit, and then things got hot. Then Sugar Ray 0:52:26.080 --> 0:52:29.360 came along right and had fly and that exploded. And 0:52:29.480 --> 0:52:32.000 then then I then the same guy, Kim Stevens brought 0:52:32.000 --> 0:52:34.080 me Matchbox twenty which was called tap at the Secret 0:52:34.120 --> 0:52:36.959 back then, and I remember, because this is the lesson 0:52:37.000 --> 0:52:39.799 in this too. He sent me four songs. I listened 0:52:39.840 --> 0:52:41.160 to my call and I was like, I'm not sure. 0:52:41.200 --> 0:52:43.680 He goes listen at three am again. I listened at 0:52:43.680 --> 0:52:45.080 three am again. It was the only one on that 0:52:45.280 --> 0:52:47.560 four song and became a hit. Said let's go see 0:52:47.600 --> 0:52:48.880 these guys. I went out. I think we went to 0:52:48.960 --> 0:52:51.919 Tallahassee or somewhere, and it was not what you see today, 0:52:51.960 --> 0:52:54.560 trust me. I mean they were not. I don't even 0:52:54.600 --> 0:52:57.840 think they were in tune. They had two different guitar players. 0:52:57.880 --> 0:52:59.879 Back then, nobody was paying attention to them. There wasn't 0:53:00.000 --> 0:53:02.200 in a stage. But I was like, there's something special 0:53:02.280 --> 0:53:04.680 about this guy was Rob Thomas guy. So we signed them, 0:53:04.680 --> 0:53:06.719 and of course we know what happened next. And it's funny. 0:53:06.719 --> 0:53:08.600 I remember even on the first record, because I always 0:53:08.640 --> 0:53:10.560 have like the last minute. I'm always wondering if we 0:53:10.600 --> 0:53:12.080 picked the right first single. I remember sitting in my 0:53:12.120 --> 0:53:13.880 office with Rob going back and forth where it was 0:53:13.960 --> 0:53:16.080 Real World or Long Day for the first single. But 0:53:16.200 --> 0:53:18.680 then you know in this magic and all this these lessons. 0:53:18.800 --> 0:53:22.000 Right after Long Day was a big hit at rock radio, 0:53:22.480 --> 0:53:25.000 sold whatever, maybe a hundred thousand records, and then a 0:53:25.120 --> 0:53:27.279 radio station down south who liked them a lot in 0:53:27.320 --> 0:53:30.359 Birmingham actually started playing Push. So I called the record 0:53:30.400 --> 0:53:32.759 stores and it was blowing the doors off, and the 0:53:32.800 --> 0:53:34.480 guy from the station told us that was the only 0:53:34.560 --> 0:53:36.040 thing that he was getting a request for any one 0:53:36.080 --> 0:53:38.200 cared about real world or any of the songs. So 0:53:38.600 --> 0:53:40.759 I went to the band manager, I said, this is 0:53:40.840 --> 0:53:42.440 the next single. They're like, oh no, and I was 0:53:42.480 --> 0:53:44.279 like no, that Doug Morris thing was in my head right, 0:53:44.360 --> 0:53:47.839 So obviously that became their career song. And then he's 0:53:47.880 --> 0:53:50.560 had so many other amazing songs since then. And then 0:53:51.880 --> 0:53:54.120 a guy named Andy carp Young and our guy who 0:53:54.160 --> 0:53:57.040 work for me brought me kid Rock and uh and 0:53:57.160 --> 0:53:59.359 that was in some ways the most fun kid Rock 0:53:59.440 --> 0:54:02.160 had made records. And was you know, he'd been around 0:54:02.160 --> 0:54:06.120 the mill already. So kid rock Um had had three albums, 0:54:06.800 --> 0:54:08.920 all stiffs. The first he had signed he was signed 0:54:08.920 --> 0:54:11.080 to Jive when he was seventeen. His first single was 0:54:11.160 --> 0:54:13.359 a song about eating pussy called Yodeling in the Valley, 0:54:14.239 --> 0:54:17.759 and do you remember that it's really funny yodeling in 0:54:17.760 --> 0:54:20.280 the valley, Yeah, Yeah, Yodling in the Valley, A Delicious 0:54:20.320 --> 0:54:24.279 Break from Potatoes and anyway, so um that had made 0:54:24.320 --> 0:54:26.400 a tiny ripple, and then he had two albums on 0:54:26.520 --> 0:54:28.200 a on a company I think it was called Continuum, 0:54:28.200 --> 0:54:30.919 and they went bankrupt. One was the poly Fuse Method 0:54:31.000 --> 0:54:33.560 or whatever, so he was damaged goods. But Andy comes 0:54:33.600 --> 0:54:35.520 to see me. Kid Rocks manager had given him a CD. 0:54:35.640 --> 0:54:37.400 I think it's out by Southwest, he says, I think 0:54:37.440 --> 0:54:39.640 that's something here. I go, all right, so go see him. 0:54:39.680 --> 0:54:41.520 So he goes to Cleveland to go see him. He 0:54:41.600 --> 0:54:43.040 comes back. I said, how's the show? He goes, I 0:54:43.080 --> 0:54:45.120 don't know. He goes, you know, there's only forty people there, 0:54:45.200 --> 0:54:47.120 but he comes out of a coffin to start the 0:54:47.160 --> 0:54:50.160 show and there's a little person on stage cursing and rapping, 0:54:50.200 --> 0:54:51.399 and I was like, I think I better go see 0:54:51.440 --> 0:54:52.920 this for myself. So I went to I went to 0:54:53.000 --> 0:54:54.719 Detroit and saw him at the State Theater and it 0:54:54.840 --> 0:54:56.719 was it was awesome. But then we had a meeting. 0:54:57.239 --> 0:54:58.520 He told me to meet him in the basement of 0:54:58.600 --> 0:55:01.279 some disco club whatever to thirty in the morning. So 0:55:01.400 --> 0:55:06.080 I did, and it was quite a strange scene. And 0:55:06.400 --> 0:55:07.480 I said to him, what do you want to do. 0:55:07.560 --> 0:55:09.279 Are you a rap or you a rock? What do you? 0:55:09.600 --> 0:55:11.560 What's your thing? And he was like, don't worry, I'll 0:55:11.600 --> 0:55:13.000 make some songs and i'll show you what I'm doing. 0:55:13.000 --> 0:55:14.120 And I said, do you want me to pay form? 0:55:14.120 --> 0:55:16.359 He said no, which is a very kid rock thing 0:55:16.400 --> 0:55:19.640 to say. So he sent me two songs. Somebody's got 0:55:19.719 --> 0:55:21.120 to feel this, and I got one for you, and 0:55:21.200 --> 0:55:22.719 then I got one for you. He name checked me. 0:55:22.920 --> 0:55:26.200 I don't even remember that, but there's a verse, Hey Flam, 0:55:26.280 --> 0:55:29.319 you want to hit money for you? So I didn't 0:55:29.320 --> 0:55:31.680 know that they were sentually demo. I was on Hollywood 0:55:31.719 --> 0:55:33.680 Boulevard when I put those two things on and I 0:55:33.719 --> 0:55:35.280 called him up and I said, I'll give you whatever 0:55:35.360 --> 0:55:37.400 you want and he said I want. I think it 0:55:37.480 --> 0:55:39.600 was three hundred thousand and whatever number of points and 0:55:39.640 --> 0:55:42.000 I said deal. We shook hands over the phone, and 0:55:42.160 --> 0:55:44.320 then his manager at the time, I think, went and 0:55:44.360 --> 0:55:46.439 shopped my deal and he started getting calls to Who's 0:55:46.440 --> 0:55:49.080 ever Lasting Credit Rock started getting calls from other labels, 0:55:49.440 --> 0:55:51.800 and he was like, I don't need you now. I 0:55:51.880 --> 0:55:54.440 needed you then, and he didn't hold me up when 0:55:54.480 --> 0:55:57.000 they offered it more money. The same was true with Matchbox. 0:55:57.040 --> 0:55:59.560 By the way, Hollywood Records offered to triple our offer 0:55:59.719 --> 0:56:02.640 and Bob said, no, I'm signing with with Lava. And 0:56:03.120 --> 0:56:04.759 that was a very good decision, and for kid Rock 0:56:04.840 --> 0:56:07.160 was an even better decision because that was the hardest 0:56:07.320 --> 0:56:09.719 project to break, and that's why it was the most fun. 0:56:09.800 --> 0:56:11.960 And also because he was such an outrageous character and 0:56:12.200 --> 0:56:15.560 you know, just such a such an unbelievably brilliant performer. 0:56:15.920 --> 0:56:18.080 You know. Okay, so how did you break kid Rock? 0:56:18.640 --> 0:56:22.000 So he went and made this album, Devil without a Cause. 0:56:22.560 --> 0:56:24.000 I thought it was one of the greatest albums of 0:56:24.000 --> 0:56:28.600 all time. It is, and everyone else hated it. With 0:56:28.680 --> 0:56:31.680 the exception of Lee Drink, Angelica Cobb and Andy Carpy 0:56:31.760 --> 0:56:34.640 and our guy, everybody fucking hated it. His peers thought 0:56:35.320 --> 0:56:38.680 very little of him. Radio hate couldn't be less interested. 0:56:38.760 --> 0:56:41.239 Press thought he was a joke, this white rapper with 0:56:41.320 --> 0:56:44.400 a fade or whatever, and uh, you know, um, um 0:56:44.920 --> 0:56:49.040 MTV couldn't be less interested. And Atlantic, the company that 0:56:49.120 --> 0:56:53.000 I was, you know, partnered with, um they hated it. 0:56:53.640 --> 0:56:56.239 Um they hated We did a showcase in New York, Bob, 0:56:56.320 --> 0:56:59.000 the first Kid Rocks showcase in New York was the 0:56:59.080 --> 0:57:00.800 greatest thing ever. We and we rent out at s 0:57:00.880 --> 0:57:02.880 I R. We sent out the invitation. It just was 0:57:02.960 --> 0:57:07.480 a sheet of paper and it was very the lettering, 0:57:07.640 --> 0:57:12.840 everything was perfect, but it just said hydraulic bonds, cursing midgets, 0:57:14.080 --> 0:57:18.080 pim pimp suits, coffins and then it just said kid 0:57:18.240 --> 0:57:20.439 Rock s I R. Seven PM. That's all that said. 0:57:20.600 --> 0:57:21.960 And that was the wrong order, but those were the 0:57:22.080 --> 0:57:26.040 right things. And we rented a pony from a children's 0:57:26.120 --> 0:57:31.760 party place for two because Joe Cie, who was then, 0:57:33.520 --> 0:57:35.160 I could say because that's what they referred to him, 0:57:35.160 --> 0:57:36.680 but he was alive. That's side. I don't know what 0:57:36.760 --> 0:57:40.280 to do their political correctness time. So we rented this pony. 0:57:40.280 --> 0:57:41.400 He didn't want to get on it. He thought it 0:57:41.440 --> 0:57:43.120 was a horse, but it was a pony. And we 0:57:43.160 --> 0:57:45.320 paid two hundrellars for the pony, and then we had 0:57:45.360 --> 0:57:47.440 to pay two hundreds to s I R. To read 0:57:47.480 --> 0:57:48.840 the bribe. I got to let him in the usually 0:57:48.840 --> 0:57:53.040 that farm animals in there. So Josie rode on stage 0:57:53.080 --> 0:57:56.320 on a pony and did the rap for Cowboy Um 0:57:56.440 --> 0:57:58.880 while waving a six shooter and wearing a cowboy hat. 0:57:58.960 --> 0:58:00.840 And we had Christmas lights drung around and we called 0:58:00.840 --> 0:58:03.960 it electric pimp suit whatever. And it was a full 0:58:04.080 --> 0:58:06.040 kid rock arena show like you would see today in 0:58:06.240 --> 0:58:08.120 S I R. And all of Atlantic was there and 0:58:08.240 --> 0:58:10.120 I was just as proud as I could be. And 0:58:10.200 --> 0:58:12.160 the next day they I find out they all thought 0:58:12.200 --> 0:58:14.880 it sucked. I was like, sucked, are you guys? I 0:58:15.040 --> 0:58:17.120 just like watching guns and Roses in the studio, you 0:58:17.200 --> 0:58:19.480 out of your mind as the greatest thing ever. So ayay, 0:58:19.480 --> 0:58:21.320 we were really up against it. And how it broke 0:58:22.680 --> 0:58:27.920 was that as it was going nowhere, and Lee Drink 0:58:28.280 --> 0:58:30.760 had written even written a letter to Howard Stern and said, 0:58:30.800 --> 0:58:32.920 you know about this? He said, no, Lee wrote a letter. 0:58:33.040 --> 0:58:35.520 He was a product manager, he was a young guy 0:58:36.200 --> 0:58:39.919 and who ultimately became kid Rocks manager. And he wrote 0:58:39.960 --> 0:58:42.160 a letter to Howard Stern because we thought if we 0:58:42.160 --> 0:58:43.800 can get him on Howard, and you know kid Rock 0:58:43.840 --> 0:58:45.560 was always with strippers and things. It was very Howard 0:58:45.600 --> 0:58:48.600 type of guy. So if we could get him on 0:58:49.240 --> 0:58:52.680 on Howard, we thought, you know, maybe that'll be a 0:58:53.200 --> 0:58:55.960 you know, a tipping point whatever. So so Drink wrote 0:58:56.000 --> 0:58:57.760 a letter to Howard and said, dear Howard, you don't 0:58:57.760 --> 0:58:59.280 know me. But I'm Kid Rocks product manager, and I 0:58:59.280 --> 0:59:01.480 have the following offer for you. If you'll play this 0:59:01.560 --> 0:59:03.920 record on the radio just once and then tell me 0:59:04.040 --> 0:59:06.560 honestly that you don't like it, I'll set myself on fire. 0:59:07.240 --> 0:59:10.360 He says, I'll take all the necessary safety precautions and 0:59:10.440 --> 0:59:12.360 you can film it if you want. But that's my 0:59:12.480 --> 0:59:15.800 offer to you. And they didn't respond, so whatever. But 0:59:16.000 --> 0:59:17.960 you know, and and and Rock and Drake had been 0:59:18.000 --> 0:59:20.360 an Israeli paratrooper, so you know he was pretty serious. 0:59:20.400 --> 0:59:22.840 But anyway, but we were trying everything. It's my point. 0:59:23.160 --> 0:59:25.560 So one day I took Louis Largent from MTV golfing 0:59:25.800 --> 0:59:27.800 and Louis was one of the senior programming guys there 0:59:28.080 --> 0:59:29.920 and we had a great day. How long after the 0:59:29.960 --> 0:59:33.040 record come out, it was months and months it was dead. 0:59:33.760 --> 0:59:36.000 So I took Louis golfing. This goes back to something 0:59:36.040 --> 0:59:37.160 my father told me. It was that one of the 0:59:37.240 --> 0:59:39.560 keys to success in businesses being friendly. So I took 0:59:39.680 --> 0:59:42.680 I took Louis golfing at Hudson National Golf Club, great 0:59:42.680 --> 0:59:44.000 golf course. We had a great day. He was a 0:59:44.040 --> 0:59:47.080 good golfer. We're getting my tahoe to drive home La 0:59:47.160 --> 0:59:49.520 Tahoe with the stocks stereo, which was very good, and 0:59:49.560 --> 0:59:51.720 in my car I controlled the volume, right, So I 0:59:51.840 --> 0:59:54.600 turned this fucking thing up to eleven and I played 0:59:54.640 --> 0:59:56.240 five songs and he had already heard the record and 0:59:56.240 --> 0:59:59.520 rejected it. And after the fifth song he turns to 0:59:59.600 --> 1:00:02.680 me and he is, this guy's going to save the world, 1:00:03.800 --> 1:00:06.240 and I said, I know, but it's much more important 1:00:06.280 --> 1:00:08.720 for you to know, and he goes Flom, You're going 1:00:08.760 --> 1:00:11.080 to touch them all on this one. And then he 1:00:11.200 --> 1:00:13.360 went back to MTV. I introduced him to rock. They 1:00:13.440 --> 1:00:15.480 ended up staying all night cleaning out a hotel any bar, 1:00:15.720 --> 1:00:17.960 but he went back and said we're going. He made 1:00:17.960 --> 1:00:19.360 a stand and he said we're gonna break this guy, 1:00:19.400 --> 1:00:21.640 and they did like a fashionably Loud was a big 1:00:21.720 --> 1:00:24.160 thing MTV Beach House. We got him on all these shows. 1:00:24.200 --> 1:00:26.240 They started playing I'm the bull Got in light rotation 1:00:27.040 --> 1:00:29.280 and um, you know the next thing, you know, along 1:00:29.320 --> 1:00:31.560 comes Bob with the Bob and the rest is history. Okay, 1:00:31.600 --> 1:00:34.120 so none of those videos were made at that point. No, 1:00:34.200 --> 1:00:35.760 I'm the bull Got had been made because I was 1:00:35.800 --> 1:00:37.600 putting real money into it, because I believe him. We 1:00:37.680 --> 1:00:39.280 spent a hundred thousand, I think on it. It was 1:00:39.320 --> 1:00:42.040 a real video. It was a great video. So when 1:00:42.080 --> 1:00:44.880 it started to turn, what did everybody say over Atlantic? 1:00:45.080 --> 1:00:48.560 How much? And of course we took out an ad 1:00:48.720 --> 1:00:50.680 when it went platinum, which was just the middle his 1:00:50.760 --> 1:00:53.920 middle finger from zero zero zero Commas zero zero zero, right, 1:00:53.960 --> 1:00:56.600 And it ran directly opposite the Christian radio charts and Billboard. 1:00:56.640 --> 1:00:58.720 People don't remember that. And then when it hit ten million, 1:00:58.800 --> 1:01:00.680 we just moved it over and at a zero and 1:01:00.720 --> 1:01:03.280 it was just like, hey, you know what like this is? 1:01:03.360 --> 1:01:05.720 And we did it right and it was fun and 1:01:05.840 --> 1:01:08.680 it was awesome, and uh, you know, I'll tell you 1:01:08.720 --> 1:01:10.760 actually a touching moment, which was that because he don't 1:01:10.760 --> 1:01:14.080 happen often enough in the business. But he became a 1:01:14.160 --> 1:01:16.960 superstar the day of the MTV Awards. You remember that, right, 1:01:17.440 --> 1:01:19.520 So the MTV Awards was a big show back then. 1:01:19.560 --> 1:01:22.320 It's a bigger show on cable TV. And I was 1:01:22.400 --> 1:01:26.320 determined to get him on. And so MTV had said 1:01:26.360 --> 1:01:29.320 he was breaking, but he wasn't broken, and they had 1:01:29.320 --> 1:01:31.040 already booked Limp Biscuit and they were like, we don't 1:01:31.040 --> 1:01:33.640 need another rap rock thing, right, And I said all right, 1:01:33.680 --> 1:01:35.880 So me and Rock huddled and we decided we would 1:01:35.880 --> 1:01:37.680 reach out. He would reach out to run DMC and 1:01:37.680 --> 1:01:41.080 I would reach out to Steven Tyler. And because anyway, 1:01:41.120 --> 1:01:43.160 he's the you know, do you think about it, he's 1:01:43.200 --> 1:01:46.080 sort of the offspring of those two you know, movements 1:01:46.200 --> 1:01:50.920 or whatever sounds. So we put together this idea that 1:01:51.120 --> 1:01:53.920 he would perform with Run d n C and Run 1:01:54.040 --> 1:01:56.760 DMC and Aerosmith. And then I called them TV and 1:01:56.840 --> 1:01:59.200 I said, you can have your limp biscuit if you want, 1:01:59.680 --> 1:02:02.200 or you can have run the m Cero Smith and 1:02:02.280 --> 1:02:04.360 Kid Rock and they said, yeah, we'll take We'll take 1:02:04.400 --> 1:02:07.680 the door number two. And so it's funny because that's 1:02:07.720 --> 1:02:09.440 the day he became a superstar. And it's interesting when 1:02:09.440 --> 1:02:11.480 you watch it back and you see them if I 1:02:11.640 --> 1:02:14.920 remember right, yeah, I think Fred has a very unhappy 1:02:15.000 --> 1:02:17.600 face on as Zero Smith comes walking marching down the aisle, 1:02:17.640 --> 1:02:20.160 Stephen and Joe come marching down the aisle. Um you know, 1:02:20.160 --> 1:02:21.800 because they kicked in the doors, right It started with 1:02:22.320 --> 1:02:24.440 it started with Bob with the Bob and then it 1:02:24.480 --> 1:02:26.400 went in to run DMC and then and then Steven 1:02:26.400 --> 1:02:28.000 and Joel kicked in the doors playing walk This Way 1:02:28.000 --> 1:02:29.480 and they performed Walked This Way with Kid Rock, and 1:02:29.520 --> 1:02:31.240 that's the night he became a superstar. So the touching 1:02:31.280 --> 1:02:32.880 part of the story is we had a party for 1:02:33.000 --> 1:02:36.840 him that night and some basement of some place downtown 1:02:37.280 --> 1:02:39.280 and a lot of the bands came. I think Corn 1:02:39.440 --> 1:02:41.600 came and different people came, and it was pretty It 1:02:41.720 --> 1:02:43.560 was a good party. It was a good record company party. 1:02:43.760 --> 1:02:46.040 And about going close to two o'clock in the morning 1:02:46.040 --> 1:02:47.880 and watch them like, what the funk am I doing here? 1:02:47.920 --> 1:02:51.240 I don't drink, I don't do drugs. Unmarried, there's no 1:02:51.480 --> 1:02:53.520 upside in me staying here any longer. Right, So I 1:02:53.560 --> 1:02:56.080 go up to Kid Rock and I said, uh, listen, 1:02:56.200 --> 1:03:01.520 you know, congratulations, Um, you know, just austome him job tonight, 1:03:01.560 --> 1:03:04.320 you know, the usual thing, right, And I walk away. 1:03:04.440 --> 1:03:06.120 We hug and I walk away and he goes, hey 1:03:06.200 --> 1:03:10.360 flom When I turnaround and he goes, uh, listen, I 1:03:10.440 --> 1:03:12.480 know it's been a long night, and I don't know. 1:03:12.600 --> 1:03:14.040 I don't mean to bring this up at a time 1:03:14.080 --> 1:03:17.880 it tasty goes, but um, thank you, And I was like, 1:03:19.080 --> 1:03:20.760 I think I'll remember that for a long time, and 1:03:20.840 --> 1:03:22.960 I did, and I do because it doesn't last. You know, 1:03:23.040 --> 1:03:26.400 like my next question, with all this talent tends to 1:03:26.480 --> 1:03:29.840 come to an end. So what do we learn about talent? Well, 1:03:30.600 --> 1:03:33.960 I mean, you know there's that great book that John 1:03:34.040 --> 1:03:38.360 Seabrook wrote right about the what's it called this song? 1:03:38.600 --> 1:03:41.360 The Song Machine. Yeah, I was talking about some more 1:03:41.360 --> 1:03:44.760 about songwriters. But it's always fascinated me that artists have 1:03:44.880 --> 1:03:47.920 a shelf life. Um. Actors, don't. You know a lot 1:03:47.960 --> 1:03:50.480 of actors can act until they're and even stay popular 1:03:50.560 --> 1:03:53.320 until they're in there you know late late, you know, 1:03:53.520 --> 1:03:56.640 later years, um. But they have a peak period of 1:03:56.720 --> 1:03:58.960 creativity and it burns so hot that maybe it just 1:03:59.080 --> 1:04:01.520 burns out, and you know, they can still perform live 1:04:01.640 --> 1:04:06.000 like that. You know theory about that in order to 1:04:06.120 --> 1:04:09.440 be successful artists, you have to be fucked up, and 1:04:09.560 --> 1:04:12.440 you have a fantasy that if you're successful it will 1:04:12.520 --> 1:04:16.720 solve your issues. And then when you become successful and 1:04:16.800 --> 1:04:19.240 you partake of all the goodies and you realize you're 1:04:19.280 --> 1:04:21.400 still the same fund up guy, you lose the motivation. 1:04:21.400 --> 1:04:23.440 You can't do it anymore. But not all of them 1:04:23.480 --> 1:04:25.560 are fucked up. All of them are fucked up. Come on, 1:04:25.800 --> 1:04:28.320 they need they have a hole inside them that has 1:04:28.400 --> 1:04:31.960 to be filled by external validation, and they can never 1:04:32.120 --> 1:04:34.680 really be filled. But there's a few, and you can 1:04:34.800 --> 1:04:37.680 name a few that never went off the rails seemingly right, 1:04:37.760 --> 1:04:40.360 never never went crazy. No, no, But I'm not trying 1:04:40.400 --> 1:04:42.840 to say they necessarily do drugs or you know, or 1:04:42.880 --> 1:04:47.200 on the verge of death. They just lose that incredible drive. Yeah, 1:04:47.240 --> 1:04:50.560 that's listen, that that's legit. But they but but but 1:04:50.720 --> 1:04:53.720 that loss only manifests itself in one way, which is 1:04:53.800 --> 1:04:56.720 their seeming inability to be able to make great records 1:04:56.760 --> 1:04:59.640 and exactly they can still perform. But I was more 1:04:59.720 --> 1:05:03.280 int listed in is being the business guy. Whether you're 1:05:03.360 --> 1:05:05.640 the manager, the A and R guy, or the label. 1:05:05.880 --> 1:05:08.480 There comes a point where you're God and then all 1:05:08.480 --> 1:05:10.640 of a sudden, the talent turns against you and your ship. 1:05:11.760 --> 1:05:13.880 I'm sure I know you've had that happen a number 1:05:13.920 --> 1:05:16.400 of times in your career. Oh yeah, what what what's 1:05:16.520 --> 1:05:19.680 what's your insight on that? Forget there? Forget there artistic abilities? 1:05:19.840 --> 1:05:21.800 But you have a personal relationship, You live and die 1:05:21.840 --> 1:05:24.760 in the trenches and then your persona on gratta. So 1:05:25.800 --> 1:05:28.720 the people I most admired in the music business Amdertic 1:05:28.840 --> 1:05:34.040 and David Geffen Doug those are the three that come 1:05:34.120 --> 1:05:36.160 to mind. They all told me the same thing. They said, 1:05:36.200 --> 1:05:38.920 they're all going to turn on you, and I was like, no, 1:05:39.720 --> 1:05:41.640 I don't think so. I mean, I don't want to 1:05:41.640 --> 1:05:43.480 believe that. I can't believe that. And this was at 1:05:43.480 --> 1:05:46.080 the time too. I remember when Kid Rock would sometimes 1:05:46.120 --> 1:05:48.200 introduce me as, hey, this is my dad. I mean 1:05:48.240 --> 1:05:50.520 he was half joking, but we had that type of relationship. 1:05:50.560 --> 1:05:52.600 We talked all the time. We did everything together. We 1:05:52.680 --> 1:05:56.040 plotted and schemed and did you know we created this 1:05:56.320 --> 1:05:58.640 thing from a whole cloth, right. It was his music, 1:05:58.720 --> 1:06:01.120 don't get me wrong. And it's always about the talent, 1:06:01.160 --> 1:06:03.080 because there's nothing any of us can do without the talent. 1:06:03.200 --> 1:06:07.600 But we did a lot together, and um, you know, 1:06:07.680 --> 1:06:11.000 we're really close personally, and uh, you know, but they 1:06:11.120 --> 1:06:13.439 all gave me these amazing stories. I mean, the armed 1:06:13.520 --> 1:06:16.439 Bobby Darren's story comes to mind, you know, or any 1:06:16.520 --> 1:06:19.680 of them where it's just so it's so weird. Well, 1:06:19.840 --> 1:06:23.000 I don't know the story. So Ammed told me that 1:06:23.360 --> 1:06:26.560 he uh, I think he discovered Bobby Darren and the 1:06:26.760 --> 1:06:29.160 lobby like they had a little like a little office 1:06:29.200 --> 1:06:31.440 above Patsy's restaurant back then, and Bobby used to just 1:06:31.480 --> 1:06:33.160 show up and sit and wait around, hoping to get 1:06:33.160 --> 1:06:34.800 an audience with herb Abrams and I think it was 1:06:34.880 --> 1:06:36.680 and Armed found him when they'd say a kid, can 1:06:36.680 --> 1:06:37.960 you play the piano? And he played the piano and 1:06:38.080 --> 1:06:39.600 arm and end up writing some of those records. I 1:06:39.600 --> 1:06:41.920 think he maybe even written, Um. I don't know if 1:06:41.960 --> 1:06:43.760 he wrote Split Splash, but he wrote some of the 1:06:43.880 --> 1:06:47.120 great Bobby Darren records. And he mentored him, and Bobby 1:06:47.160 --> 1:06:49.600 gave a speech at the Grammys and called him and said, 1:06:49.640 --> 1:06:51.800 you know he said on stage. Apparently I haven't seen 1:06:51.880 --> 1:06:53.640 the speech, but I'm told me that said the most 1:06:53.680 --> 1:06:57.160 moving things about him and everything else. And he goes 1:06:57.200 --> 1:06:59.800 on it becomes a big star and Mary's both don't 1:06:59.800 --> 1:07:02.360 even are a fabian or something right, and um the 1:07:02.480 --> 1:07:05.160 movie star at the time, and m it says one 1:07:05.200 --> 1:07:07.760 day he gets called to l A and goes to 1:07:07.880 --> 1:07:10.360 see him, and Bobby's got these two managers who I'm 1:07:10.480 --> 1:07:13.280 described as having these like nice manicures, these fancy suits, 1:07:13.320 --> 1:07:15.800 and they're driving around l A and this nice car 1:07:15.960 --> 1:07:19.720 and they were driving past the Capital Tower. He said, 1:07:20.000 --> 1:07:22.680 and managers said to Bobby in front of them, it 1:07:22.760 --> 1:07:24.560 can you imagine if you were with a real record 1:07:24.600 --> 1:07:27.200 company like that, how big you would be. I mean, 1:07:27.240 --> 1:07:29.200 you would be the biggest star in the world in stera, etcetera. 1:07:29.280 --> 1:07:32.760 And Bobby bit and left him turned on him, and 1:07:33.520 --> 1:07:35.720 you know, I forgot all about everything you had done 1:07:35.800 --> 1:07:38.680 and this is his career, you know, tanked and whatever. 1:07:38.800 --> 1:07:40.840 But it didn't have to tank what it did. But 1:07:41.600 --> 1:07:43.400 it's a shame. I mean, I've learned not to take 1:07:43.480 --> 1:07:46.360 it personally anyway, because I now realized that for the 1:07:46.480 --> 1:07:49.640 most part, it's true. And it may have something to 1:07:49.720 --> 1:07:52.800 do with the other theory of yours. I don't know, um, 1:07:54.200 --> 1:07:57.640 but I don't you know, I don't lose sleepover it anymore, 1:07:57.800 --> 1:08:01.320 like for what you know, Like I'm I'm happy for 1:08:01.400 --> 1:08:06.360 their success. Um, I hope they're happy for mine. And um, 1:08:06.880 --> 1:08:09.919 you know, I'm I'm very fucking lucky to be able 1:08:10.000 --> 1:08:12.520 to play a part in this amazing thing called the 1:08:12.600 --> 1:08:14.720 music business and to be able to make a living 1:08:14.840 --> 1:08:18.559 doing what I love. So what the fuck? Okay jumping about? 1:08:18.600 --> 1:08:22.120 You know you're at Lava, they cash you out, Uh, 1:08:22.640 --> 1:08:24.280 you have a lot of money, then you become a 1:08:24.360 --> 1:08:27.880 head of Uh Virgin tell the Story is of Katy 1:08:28.000 --> 1:08:33.040 Perry and thirty Seconds to Mars. So yeah. After a 1:08:33.160 --> 1:08:37.080 few number of other hits at Lava, Simple Plan, Transparian Orchestra, 1:08:37.120 --> 1:08:40.519 Bras became a big thing. The Uncle Cracker, Um, et cetera. 1:08:40.680 --> 1:08:46.120 There was others, Um the Cores right, Hugh jack Um, 1:08:46.720 --> 1:08:48.640 and we sold almost a hundred million records in eight 1:08:48.720 --> 1:08:51.040 years from my standing start. It was really fun. And anyway, 1:08:51.040 --> 1:08:53.000 they bought me out and they made me the chairman 1:08:53.000 --> 1:08:55.160 of Atlantic, which was an amazing experience. It was short 1:08:55.240 --> 1:08:57.760 lived because of course, you know, everyone knows the or 1:08:57.760 --> 1:08:59.400 and I didn't get along, and it is what it is. 1:09:00.080 --> 1:09:01.920 I got fired over a poem I wrote, I don't 1:09:02.040 --> 1:09:06.759 remember that, but that's true. And then um, roses are reddish, 1:09:06.840 --> 1:09:09.320 violets are bluish our stocks in the toilet. But at 1:09:09.360 --> 1:09:13.560 least we're both Jewish. So um, yeah, that wasn't It 1:09:13.600 --> 1:09:15.640 didn't work out so well, but anyway, um, but it 1:09:15.720 --> 1:09:20.080 was funny. So I got hired to run Virgin and 1:09:20.439 --> 1:09:22.920 it was so fun, so much fun because Virgin had 1:09:22.960 --> 1:09:25.639 been so cold for so long. The culture was fucked, 1:09:25.680 --> 1:09:29.240 everything was fucked, and uh, you know. It was great 1:09:29.280 --> 1:09:32.439 because the day that the I'd signed my contract but 1:09:32.560 --> 1:09:37.240 nobody knew it yet, and sitting in my den, uh, 1:09:37.400 --> 1:09:39.160 and I had this idea. At the time, the hottest 1:09:39.160 --> 1:09:40.559 movie in the country was a four year old Virgin, 1:09:40.600 --> 1:09:42.360 So I decided I would take a picture as him 1:09:42.400 --> 1:09:44.160 and use that as my announcement. So I ran the 1:09:44.280 --> 1:09:47.120 ad Jason flamm is the forty four year old version. 1:09:47.120 --> 1:09:48.760 And it was lucky I was forty four because forty 1:09:48.800 --> 1:09:51.280 four is a funny number. Forty five not funny, forty 1:09:51.320 --> 1:09:54.160 three not funny, forty two definitely not funny, forty four funny. 1:09:54.479 --> 1:09:57.040 So that really set the tone for the new company 1:09:57.080 --> 1:09:59.120 that I wanted to build. I hired great people. I 1:09:59.200 --> 1:10:02.160 heard Jeff kempl Um, who was my CEO I hardly 1:10:02.240 --> 1:10:06.000 drank to be president. I hired Angelica cob back from 1:10:06.560 --> 1:10:11.040 the old days, who was now at Columbia. Angelica. Um. 1:10:11.200 --> 1:10:13.600 It was funny because actually the first this is a 1:10:13.680 --> 1:10:16.559 story that's not well known, but uh, the day after 1:10:16.640 --> 1:10:19.400 I got my job, there's a Tuesday. I called a 1:10:19.439 --> 1:10:21.760 guy named Steve Tramposh and I said he was a 1:10:21.800 --> 1:10:23.920 guy who used to follow me around at clubs with 1:10:24.040 --> 1:10:27.880 a stack of research. He was a research just so 1:10:28.160 --> 1:10:30.920 laser focused. But I've never had anything for him to do. 1:10:31.680 --> 1:10:33.599 So I called him up. I thought maybe he wants 1:10:33.600 --> 1:10:36.080 to be a research guy. So he comes in and uh, 1:10:36.160 --> 1:10:37.400 I said, what you've been up to? He says, I've 1:10:37.400 --> 1:10:38.920 been managing a band. I go, no kidding? What band? 1:10:38.920 --> 1:10:41.000 He says, A band called Red Jumpsuit Apparatus. I said, oh, 1:10:41.080 --> 1:10:42.559 let me here. So he puts it on and he's 1:10:42.560 --> 1:10:45.160 playing that song, phase down and halfway through, and I said, 1:10:45.160 --> 1:10:47.920 I'm signing that. He says, you can't. I said why not? 1:10:48.080 --> 1:10:50.040 He because you can't. He says, because we're signing a 1:10:50.080 --> 1:10:52.920 record deal with Capital tomorrow. I go tomorrow. What do 1:10:52.960 --> 1:10:55.280 you mean to more? He goes tomorrow. I said tomorrow. 1:10:55.280 --> 1:10:56.360 What are you talking about? He says, no, we have 1:10:56.439 --> 1:10:59.559 execution copies. I said, get the band on the phone. 1:11:00.040 --> 1:11:01.880 Got the band on the phone. I said, I'm flying 1:11:01.920 --> 1:11:03.920 these guys up to New York tomorrow. I got I 1:11:03.960 --> 1:11:06.879 think it was Kevin from the Warp Tour. Didn't somebody 1:11:07.080 --> 1:11:08.800 somebody at the Warp too. I think it might have 1:11:08.840 --> 1:11:11.720 been Kevin, But anyway, I don't want to misspeak. But 1:11:11.840 --> 1:11:13.400 I got him to call up and say, listen, if 1:11:13.439 --> 1:11:16.360 feel uh, I feel signed with farm and really increase 1:11:16.400 --> 1:11:18.000 your chances of getting on the tour. And the warp 1:11:18.080 --> 1:11:19.840 tour was the thing to be on those days, right, 1:11:19.840 --> 1:11:22.240 and I really I lined it up and they flew 1:11:22.320 --> 1:11:24.160 up the next day. I took him to dinner and 1:11:24.320 --> 1:11:26.840 we literally, because it was a sister company of ours, 1:11:26.880 --> 1:11:30.040 we got the document that's from internally, we got it sent. 1:11:30.200 --> 1:11:32.439 We scratched out the name Capital Road in virgin and 1:11:32.479 --> 1:11:35.000 they signed the deal. And it was funny because I 1:11:35.040 --> 1:11:37.439 got a call the next day from my boss was 1:11:37.880 --> 1:11:40.800 Alan Leavy was the head of the whole thing, my 1:11:40.840 --> 1:11:42.720 immediate boss, with David Muttons who was for all on 1:11:42.840 --> 1:11:44.560 and Alan called, He goes, what the fun did you do? 1:11:45.520 --> 1:11:46.760 I go, what did I do? I signed a ban? 1:11:46.840 --> 1:11:49.160 He goes no, and he's and he's going crazy that 1:11:49.400 --> 1:11:51.160 and he was ahead of cap Capital. He goes, he's 1:11:51.160 --> 1:11:53.160 going crazy. He said, what do you you stole the band? 1:11:53.200 --> 1:11:55.760 I said, Look, I'm sorry, I said, I I'm sorry. 1:11:55.800 --> 1:11:57.720 I thought you wanted me to come in. I thought 1:11:57.760 --> 1:12:00.120 you wanted me to win, like I thought you me 1:12:00.200 --> 1:12:01.920 to turn this dump around. I said, if you want 1:12:01.920 --> 1:12:03.599 me to come in second on stuff. You better tell 1:12:03.640 --> 1:12:05.560 me now, I said, I didn't mean to steal the 1:12:05.600 --> 1:12:07.600 band from but he had it and I wanted it, 1:12:08.160 --> 1:12:10.080 and if my grandmother would have had it, I would 1:12:10.080 --> 1:12:11.280 have stolen it from her. You know what am I 1:12:11.280 --> 1:12:13.080 gonna do? So anyway, and they had a platinum record 1:12:13.120 --> 1:12:14.320 out of the box. It blew up. So that was 1:12:14.360 --> 1:12:17.040 a great way to start. And then, um, you know, 1:12:17.160 --> 1:12:20.600 then Angelica calls me one day or says to me, 1:12:20.720 --> 1:12:23.160 you know, you should meet this girl Katie Perrys. Who's 1:12:23.200 --> 1:12:25.200 Katie Perry? She said she's signed to Columbia. I think 1:12:25.240 --> 1:12:27.400 they're gonna drop her. I think she's the star. I 1:12:27.479 --> 1:12:29.960 met Katie at the Polo Lounge when she walked in 1:12:30.040 --> 1:12:32.120 and sat down, and I went, this girl's a star, 1:12:32.600 --> 1:12:34.920 like this is no question about it. And as soon 1:12:34.960 --> 1:12:37.759 as I started talking to her, like the story matches everything, 1:12:37.880 --> 1:12:40.080 Like she's got the background, the thing, and I couldn't 1:12:40.080 --> 1:12:41.400 wait to hear the music. I heard the music, I 1:12:41.520 --> 1:12:46.479 loved it and ultimately signed her. Um and uh, you know, 1:12:46.680 --> 1:12:49.360 sort of serendipitously, you know, she showed up that I 1:12:49.439 --> 1:12:52.160 invited her to our Grammy party because this was we 1:12:52.360 --> 1:12:54.360 just signed her at the beginning of the year and 1:12:54.400 --> 1:12:56.920 I invite her the the Grammy Party and she walked 1:12:56.960 --> 1:12:59.559 in with Dr Luke, So I was like, oh my god, 1:12:59.600 --> 1:13:01.479 you guys areach other. Oh yeah, we're friends. I said, well, 1:13:01.479 --> 1:13:04.599 you're gonna work together. And I had known Luke because 1:13:04.600 --> 1:13:06.439 I gave him his first break in the business when 1:13:06.479 --> 1:13:08.240 he was a guitar player side and I've actually signed 1:13:08.280 --> 1:13:11.160 him to a record deal UM, and I thought, this 1:13:11.320 --> 1:13:14.400 is gonna be great. And I really forced that UM 1:13:14.720 --> 1:13:19.400 collaboration to happen because it was some resistance from people UM, 1:13:19.800 --> 1:13:22.880 but it was and of course Luke's always driven a 1:13:22.960 --> 1:13:24.760 hard bargain, but we made it happen. And of course 1:13:24.840 --> 1:13:27.800 that became really a lynch pin and her well, the 1:13:27.960 --> 1:13:30.439 lynch pin her success, and so with that combination was 1:13:30.520 --> 1:13:33.120 just magical. I couldn't have known that. And then of 1:13:33.200 --> 1:13:34.960 course I Kissed a girl came out and just became 1:13:35.040 --> 1:13:36.800 this monster. And it's funny because I've had two hits 1:13:36.840 --> 1:13:39.760 what songs called I Kiss because Jill Sobiel, who I 1:13:39.800 --> 1:13:41.840 signed it was the first artist I signed at Lava 1:13:42.000 --> 1:13:44.760 the first time UM, and it was with Atlantic, had 1:13:44.760 --> 1:13:46.200 a song called I kissed the girl with Fabby in 1:13:46.240 --> 1:13:47.800 the video and it wasn't it wasn't a hit like this, 1:13:47.880 --> 1:13:51.559 but it was a hit. So and then uh, thirty 1:13:51.600 --> 1:13:54.080 seconds to Mars. So here's the funny thing. So when 1:13:54.120 --> 1:13:56.240 you take over a new record company, UM, I hadn't 1:13:56.280 --> 1:13:58.759 had this experience before, but because when I came into Atlantic, 1:13:58.760 --> 1:14:02.000 I was already Atlantic. But so I I get the 1:14:02.080 --> 1:14:04.320 job at Virgin and I a box of CDs arrived 1:14:04.360 --> 1:14:05.719 at my house and I'm like, what am I supposed 1:14:05.720 --> 1:14:07.080 to do with this? Like, how are you supposed to 1:14:07.200 --> 1:14:09.559 digest that much music and make any sort of informed 1:14:09.560 --> 1:14:11.360 decision about what to do with these different arts? So 1:14:11.520 --> 1:14:13.840 you talk to people, you ask, you listen, you schmooze whatever, 1:14:14.479 --> 1:14:16.439 and everyone's like this thirty seconds of warch you gotta 1:14:16.439 --> 1:14:18.759 get rid of it. It's a vanity project for an actor. 1:14:19.400 --> 1:14:21.760 It's just another dog Star or whatever the hell it is. 1:14:21.880 --> 1:14:24.000 And they had an album that flopped and the new 1:14:24.080 --> 1:14:26.000 album isn't doing anything, and I was like, I guess 1:14:26.000 --> 1:14:28.640 I should probably drop it. But they happened to be 1:14:28.800 --> 1:14:31.000 on tour with Audio Slave and they were playing at 1:14:31.040 --> 1:14:32.920 Madison Square Garden, so I said I should go. So 1:14:33.040 --> 1:14:36.160 I went and the show was incredible, and I went 1:14:36.200 --> 1:14:37.960 to dinner with them afterwards, and I was sitting with 1:14:38.080 --> 1:14:41.280 Jared and he told me that he had just turned 1:14:41.320 --> 1:14:43.679 down a starring or co starring role in new Cline 1:14:43.680 --> 1:14:48.000 Eastwood movie. And I was like, what, I go, We'll 1:14:48.040 --> 1:14:50.000 come again, and he goes, yeah. I said, why did 1:14:50.040 --> 1:14:52.439 you do that? He goes, because I I had too, 1:14:52.479 --> 1:14:55.160 he says, I. I got a call from Clinton and 1:14:55.200 --> 1:14:57.600 he says, you know, kid, what are you doing? And 1:14:57.680 --> 1:14:59.160 I said, I can't do it. I'm on tour with 1:14:59.280 --> 1:15:01.880 my band. And they were playing clubs back then. I mean, 1:15:01.880 --> 1:15:03.479 they got the autos lator, but mostly they're playing a 1:15:03.479 --> 1:15:08.519 little clubs and you know he uh, it wasn't well 1:15:08.600 --> 1:15:12.600 received by Mr Eastwood. Um, and I said, that's the 1:15:12.600 --> 1:15:14.200 most rock and roll thing I've heard in a long time. 1:15:14.200 --> 1:15:15.840 And I'm gonna make you a star. I gonna break 1:15:15.840 --> 1:15:18.800 your band. And so I gave them money to make 1:15:18.840 --> 1:15:25.040 a video, and uh, I called them TV. They made 1:15:25.080 --> 1:15:29.479 the video. I call I call them TV. As they 1:15:29.520 --> 1:15:31.160 were making the video and I said, I'm gonna make 1:15:31.200 --> 1:15:34.479 a video with thirty seconds to Mars, and you guys 1:15:34.520 --> 1:15:37.240 are gonna play it in a rotation that I deem appropriate, 1:15:37.720 --> 1:15:39.639 or I'm going to stage a hunger strike in your lobby. 1:15:41.240 --> 1:15:43.160 I said, I'm going to bring an espresso machine because 1:15:43.160 --> 1:15:44.840 I can't live without caffeine. But I'm gonna sit there 1:15:44.840 --> 1:15:46.519 a cross legged until you play it the way you're 1:15:46.520 --> 1:15:48.479 supposed to. And the good news was he made that 1:15:48.640 --> 1:15:52.680 remarkable video for The Kill where he sort of you know, 1:15:52.960 --> 1:15:55.519 took to the plot line from the Shining and you know, 1:15:55.600 --> 1:15:57.760 everything he does is remarkable. It just doesn't even make 1:15:57.760 --> 1:15:59.640 any sense. He's one of those people like Jamie Fox, 1:15:59.800 --> 1:16:02.800 who like everything they do is fucking perfect and it's 1:16:02.840 --> 1:16:06.640 almost unbelievable. And so uh so, yeah, we ended up 1:16:06.680 --> 1:16:09.160 breaking the band and um, having really a great run 1:16:09.240 --> 1:16:12.080 with them. Okay, so Virgin, your job bands is a 1:16:12.360 --> 1:16:14.720 long business thing having nothing to do with you. And 1:16:14.840 --> 1:16:18.960 you start over with Universal and you sign lord. Can 1:16:19.000 --> 1:16:22.280 you fill us in on that? Yeah? So I left 1:16:22.360 --> 1:16:26.200 there they preached my contract, um, and I left, and um, 1:16:26.880 --> 1:16:28.960 you know, I partnered up with Monty and Avery because 1:16:29.200 --> 1:16:32.000 I had had a friendly Yeah, I had a friendly 1:16:32.080 --> 1:16:33.840 arriving with him over these Monty I used to speak 1:16:34.160 --> 1:16:36.320 four times a year and we would compare notes every 1:16:36.360 --> 1:16:38.559 time I was breaking something, seemed like he was breaking something, 1:16:38.600 --> 1:16:41.160 and vice versa. I remember Monty was a promotion guy 1:16:41.200 --> 1:16:44.559 for Daniel Glass at s p K, So I thought 1:16:44.560 --> 1:16:46.960 it wasn't I'm always breaking something and they're always breaking 1:16:46.960 --> 1:16:49.200 Something's get together and break something. So we did, and 1:16:49.320 --> 1:16:53.400 we always had a mutual respect and so, um, you know, 1:16:53.560 --> 1:16:55.800 not too long after I got there, Well, jesse Ja 1:16:55.920 --> 1:16:59.240 came first, of course, But um, and it hasn't all 1:16:59.320 --> 1:17:01.439 been you know, line and roses. We're obviously talking about 1:17:01.439 --> 1:17:02.840 the good parts of my career, but there have been 1:17:02.840 --> 1:17:05.559 a lot of frustrating and things and setbacks and etcetera. 1:17:05.680 --> 1:17:12.640 But um, a woman named Natalia roma Chefski who was 1:17:12.760 --> 1:17:15.920 a she worked at at a jingle place. She was 1:17:16.000 --> 1:17:18.200 like a music supervisor or something like that, and she 1:17:18.320 --> 1:17:20.439 and I had been friends and she would send me 1:17:20.520 --> 1:17:22.280 music time to time, and she sent me an email 1:17:22.960 --> 1:17:25.920 which I now have framed and autocraft and dedicated by Lord. 1:17:26.520 --> 1:17:28.760 And the email the subject line was hot shit and 1:17:28.840 --> 1:17:32.160 then it just said unsigned New Zealand female listen and 1:17:32.280 --> 1:17:34.439 that soundclad link and on the bottom she wrote, I'm 1:17:34.439 --> 1:17:35.800 not sure if this is your type of thing, but 1:17:36.479 --> 1:17:38.120 I thought you should check it out. So I put 1:17:38.200 --> 1:17:40.960 this fucking thing on Bob and it was Royals and 1:17:41.600 --> 1:17:45.840 you know, I think love Club and and I called 1:17:45.880 --> 1:17:48.120 her up and I go, what the fund did I 1:17:48.240 --> 1:17:51.080 just listened to? And she goes, I don't know. She said, 1:17:51.120 --> 1:17:52.599 somebody just sent it to me. I thought I'd send 1:17:52.640 --> 1:17:53.960 it to you. I said, how do we find her? 1:17:55.000 --> 1:18:00.680 So found her address on Facebook. I emailed Lord and 1:18:00.800 --> 1:18:02.519 she wrote me back and next thing I know him 1:18:02.560 --> 1:18:05.200 on the phone with her parents, and I think she 1:18:05.280 --> 1:18:06.760 may have been on the call and her manager, and 1:18:06.840 --> 1:18:08.839 I said, you know, I think your daughter's gonna win Grammys, 1:18:09.720 --> 1:18:12.680 and um, you know, we did the deal and I 1:18:12.760 --> 1:18:14.120 got there just in time. You know, she had two 1:18:14.240 --> 1:18:17.000 hundred soundclown plays when I did you fly to New 1:18:17.080 --> 1:18:19.200 Zealand though a little while after that. Yeah, I went 1:18:19.240 --> 1:18:20.840 to her first gig. I think it was her first 1:18:20.880 --> 1:18:22.960 gig she had ever done with the original material. And 1:18:23.040 --> 1:18:25.160 it was awesome. By the way, there was seventy people there, 1:18:25.200 --> 1:18:27.200 but she was Lord. So the deal was made before 1:18:27.280 --> 1:18:29.160 you flew to New Zealand. Yeah, the deal was made. 1:18:29.200 --> 1:18:30.680 And it was funny too, because when I was in 1:18:30.760 --> 1:18:33.160 New Zealand, I got an email from Sean Parker I 1:18:33.200 --> 1:18:36.679 have a long history with and Seawan emailed Lucian Grange 1:18:36.720 --> 1:18:39.000 and copied me and he said, hey, you know, I 1:18:39.160 --> 1:18:40.960 just came across this girl lord. I think you guys 1:18:40.960 --> 1:18:42.639 should check it out. And I wrote him back and said, 1:18:42.680 --> 1:18:44.640 she's sitting right next to me at a cafe in 1:18:44.760 --> 1:18:46.640 Auckland right now. It is a great moment, you know, 1:18:47.160 --> 1:18:49.920 so um so yeah, but she was she was like 1:18:50.520 --> 1:18:53.040 I think she sprang from the womb, like fully formed, 1:18:53.120 --> 1:18:58.000 because she was on stage, confident, um, you know, just 1:18:58.360 --> 1:19:00.960 doing her thing and the was those songs like you know, 1:19:01.000 --> 1:19:03.439 they say there's three things that children can become geniuses at, 1:19:03.520 --> 1:19:07.400 which is music, math and chess, and you know, she 1:19:08.400 --> 1:19:11.639 created a work of absolute genius when she was fourteen 1:19:11.720 --> 1:19:14.720 years old. I mean, it's just it always amazed me 1:19:14.760 --> 1:19:18.480 about her because it's like, if she's a young teenager 1:19:18.640 --> 1:19:21.240 in New Zealand, there's at least an argument that says 1:19:21.280 --> 1:19:24.559 she really couldn't have experienced hardly anything, but it seemed 1:19:24.600 --> 1:19:28.120 like she knew everything exactly. The explanation is that she 1:19:28.160 --> 1:19:29.960 read a thousand books by the time she was twelve, 1:19:30.560 --> 1:19:33.200 but still, it's it's just a remarkable piece of work. 1:19:33.360 --> 1:19:36.360 And then weren't her parents reluctant they wanted her to 1:19:36.400 --> 1:19:40.400 stay in school? Yeah, one of them was, and uh, 1:19:40.680 --> 1:19:42.679 I was was in favor of her becoming a lawyer, 1:19:42.800 --> 1:19:44.800 and I said, you know what, I come from a 1:19:44.880 --> 1:19:48.080 family of lawyers, and I promise you there's enough lawyers 1:19:49.520 --> 1:19:51.519 and your daughter has a real chance to win Grammy's. 1:19:51.880 --> 1:19:54.799 And of course, um, you know, Joel Little did that beautiful, 1:19:54.800 --> 1:19:57.639 beautiful album, and um and I remember when she called 1:19:57.680 --> 1:19:58.920 me up and told me the title of it was 1:19:58.960 --> 1:20:01.240 going to be Pure Heroine and I almost I almost 1:20:01.320 --> 1:20:04.600 fell down. I mean, it is, it is so that 1:20:04.800 --> 1:20:09.439 title is batshit fucking crazy. I mean it's so good, right, 1:20:09.560 --> 1:20:11.599 and the black cover and the white right, it's perfect. 1:20:12.120 --> 1:20:14.640 It's like some ziggy stardust type of perfection. And I 1:20:14.680 --> 1:20:16.960 don't want to compare to David Bowie because whatever, but 1:20:17.080 --> 1:20:18.400 I mean, you know, and he's not even here anywhere, 1:20:18.400 --> 1:20:19.599 But that was one of my favorite albums of all 1:20:19.640 --> 1:20:22.120 time because it was perfect. But it's out. That album 1:20:22.200 --> 1:20:25.040 is perfect and even the title is pure Heroin with 1:20:25.080 --> 1:20:27.880 an e onion and Lord has an onion? Get the 1:20:28.120 --> 1:20:30.840 funk out of here. Where did that what depths of 1:20:30.960 --> 1:20:34.120 your soul did that spring from? Because it's amazing. Okay, 1:20:34.200 --> 1:20:37.320 So you sent me a video where you actually spoke 1:20:37.920 --> 1:20:42.240 in Canada at a large convention center six thousand people. 1:20:42.720 --> 1:20:48.040 And in the speech you gave, you talked about being depressed. 1:20:48.680 --> 1:20:51.320 Can you tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, 1:20:51.360 --> 1:20:53.479 I went through a you know, I was. First of all, 1:20:53.479 --> 1:20:55.599 it was such a thrill to open for Tony Robbins 1:20:55.640 --> 1:20:58.000 in Canada's the speech that I sent you, And um, 1:20:58.160 --> 1:21:00.680 I'm hoping to do more with We're work with him 1:21:00.680 --> 1:21:03.720 because he's a force of nature. But that's beside the point. Um. 1:21:04.360 --> 1:21:08.439 So I spoke about the fact that about seven or 1:21:08.479 --> 1:21:11.519 eight years ago, I hit a low point when a 1:21:11.640 --> 1:21:15.360 lot of things sort of happened at once and um, 1:21:15.760 --> 1:21:18.320 and it spiraled me into a state of depression. And 1:21:18.800 --> 1:21:20.760 and those things, I mean, both of my parents died 1:21:20.840 --> 1:21:24.240 relatively close to each other. I had recently been separated. 1:21:24.960 --> 1:21:27.120 You know, I was missing my kids and my dogs 1:21:27.200 --> 1:21:30.840 and my life. And I had a terrible professional experience, 1:21:31.439 --> 1:21:34.120 the worst one I've ever had. I had fallen in 1:21:34.280 --> 1:21:37.040 love and then had my heartbroken. You remember that nonsense 1:21:37.840 --> 1:21:40.840 and um and so uh, you know, and then I 1:21:40.960 --> 1:21:43.080 was angry at myself for being depressed, because you know, 1:21:43.160 --> 1:21:45.639 I work at the Innocence Project, right and I deal 1:21:45.720 --> 1:21:48.879 with people every day who had, you know, spent decades 1:21:48.920 --> 1:21:50.840 in prison for the crimes they didn't commit. And then 1:21:50.880 --> 1:21:52.680 I'm sitting there going, how what right do I have 1:21:52.920 --> 1:21:55.320 to feel this way? And so I was just really 1:21:55.360 --> 1:21:58.240 in a very low place, you know, and I wasn't 1:21:58.240 --> 1:21:59.479 sure I was ever going to get out of it, 1:22:00.000 --> 1:22:01.800 and so how did you get out of it? You know? 1:22:01.880 --> 1:22:03.439 I had this feeling at the time, Bob that I 1:22:03.479 --> 1:22:06.439 said this on stage that everything good that had ever 1:22:06.479 --> 1:22:08.080 happened to me was everything good that was ever gonna 1:22:08.120 --> 1:22:10.080 happen to me. There were gonna be no more hit records, 1:22:10.080 --> 1:22:11.240 There's gonna be no more women that were going to 1:22:11.280 --> 1:22:12.639 be attracted to me, there was gonna be no more 1:22:12.960 --> 1:22:17.240 love in my life. Everything. So I was in l 1:22:17.320 --> 1:22:21.320 A and uh, two things happened. When was a friend 1:22:21.360 --> 1:22:24.400 of mine named Hannah Schmider. She says to me, boy, 1:22:24.400 --> 1:22:25.880 you're a fucking mess. And I said, yeah, I'm a 1:22:25.920 --> 1:22:27.479 fucking mess. I's here for the Brampton. She said, you 1:22:27.520 --> 1:22:29.559 gotta go see Jessica. I go, who's Jessica. She said 1:22:29.600 --> 1:22:31.280 she's an intuitive. I said, I don't know what that is, 1:22:31.360 --> 1:22:35.720 but I'm going and uh, I went to see this uh, 1:22:35.880 --> 1:22:41.280 this woman named Jessica Rannick. Uh and she are any kay? 1:22:41.560 --> 1:22:43.160 And she turned my whole shit around. I mean, like 1:22:43.280 --> 1:22:45.360 in one session she told me why I was feeling 1:22:45.360 --> 1:22:47.599 it the way I was. What did you learn that session? Well, 1:22:47.760 --> 1:22:49.080 she told me why I was feeling the way I 1:22:49.160 --> 1:22:51.080 was feeling, what had happened, and what to do about it? 1:22:51.439 --> 1:22:54.080 And just very quickly what what did she say to do? 1:22:54.160 --> 1:22:55.920 Why were you feeling that way? Well? She was the 1:22:55.960 --> 1:22:57.559 first one that explained to me. And I had wasted 1:22:57.560 --> 1:22:59.400 a lot of time going to shrinks, you know, ever 1:22:59.479 --> 1:23:02.200 since my it she had fallen apart, or even before that, 1:23:02.360 --> 1:23:04.439 every since I knew it was falling apart, and UM 1:23:05.640 --> 1:23:08.400 had really hadn't made any progress. And she was the 1:23:08.439 --> 1:23:10.080 first one that explained to me that the reason I 1:23:10.200 --> 1:23:11.560 was feeling I was feeling I had a lot to 1:23:11.600 --> 1:23:12.840 do with the fact that I got no love from 1:23:12.880 --> 1:23:14.840 my mother, you know, which is again when I met 1:23:14.840 --> 1:23:17.000 what was me whatever? People have real problems, right, but 1:23:17.120 --> 1:23:19.080 still I was the first time anyone had made that 1:23:19.120 --> 1:23:22.360 connection it really, it just clicked something off in my brain. 1:23:22.600 --> 1:23:24.160 She also said to me, just just to be clear, 1:23:24.320 --> 1:23:27.960 did your mother acknowledge your success? Yeah? In letters? She 1:23:27.960 --> 1:23:30.519 could write letters, and she was she was a great 1:23:30.600 --> 1:23:34.880 letter writer, but she couldn't say it. So, um it was. 1:23:35.080 --> 1:23:37.040 It was a weird thing. Okay. So the second thing 1:23:37.240 --> 1:23:40.120 she said, so I'll never forget, she says to me, Um, 1:23:40.240 --> 1:23:44.320 I was, I was, you know, moaning about this lost 1:23:44.720 --> 1:23:46.880 love which I thought it was, which was actually a 1:23:46.920 --> 1:23:51.040 dysfunctional mess. And I said, you know, I don't think 1:23:51.120 --> 1:23:53.679 I'm not charming enough, I'm not attractive enough. I don't 1:23:53.680 --> 1:23:55.680 think any more. And she goes, how about if I 1:23:55.760 --> 1:23:58.840 make a list of five million beautiful women that would 1:23:58.920 --> 1:24:01.280 drop what they're doing right now to marry your sorry 1:24:01.360 --> 1:24:03.920 fucking ass. And I was like, because she curses like that, 1:24:04.040 --> 1:24:06.800 And I was like really, She's like yeah. I was like, huh, 1:24:07.960 --> 1:24:10.120 I don't know. But it actually sort of like I 1:24:10.240 --> 1:24:12.280 was like, Wow, she believes it. Maybe I should believe 1:24:12.280 --> 1:24:13.680 it too. No shrink is ever going to talk to 1:24:13.720 --> 1:24:16.760 you like that. So it was a combination of things 1:24:16.800 --> 1:24:18.760 she said and and and things she did and just 1:24:18.840 --> 1:24:20.120 the way she spoke to me and the way she 1:24:20.280 --> 1:24:22.519 cut through the bullshit, you know, and she did and 1:24:22.600 --> 1:24:24.920 then um, and it's it's funny because you're in the 1:24:24.920 --> 1:24:27.360 studio with us today. But anyway, it's a coincidence. It's 1:24:27.360 --> 1:24:29.280 not like we follow each other around all day. But 1:24:29.400 --> 1:24:30.920 but I we've we've been close over the years, and 1:24:30.920 --> 1:24:32.240 I've sent so many people. I'm sure some man of 1:24:32.240 --> 1:24:34.400 the people listening to this podcast have been to see 1:24:34.439 --> 1:24:35.960 her because I've sent so many people to see her 1:24:36.000 --> 1:24:39.640 over the years with remarkable results. Um. And another thing 1:24:39.680 --> 1:24:41.280 happened at the same time, too, which is that I 1:24:41.320 --> 1:24:43.800 think it was Don Passman told me to call Rabbi Mark. 1:24:44.160 --> 1:24:46.400 So I went to see Rabbi Mark. Who is Rabbi Mark. 1:24:46.640 --> 1:24:50.519 He's a life coach and is he actually a rabbi? Yeah, 1:24:51.120 --> 1:24:52.840 but he's had a crazy life story. He was in 1:24:53.000 --> 1:24:54.960 jail and he's had hits taken out on him by 1:24:55.040 --> 1:24:57.320 loan sharks and all sorts of crazy things. We did 1:24:57.400 --> 1:25:00.000 a walk and talk for an hour and he's counseled 1:25:00.040 --> 1:25:03.160 some legendary people in music industry and he Uh, we 1:25:03.240 --> 1:25:05.280 did a walk and talk for an hour and he 1:25:05.400 --> 1:25:10.120 says to me, here's what you're gonna do, go home, 1:25:10.320 --> 1:25:12.920 look in the mirror and say the following words out loud. 1:25:13.200 --> 1:25:17.040 I'm important and I matter, and then start acting like it, 1:25:17.160 --> 1:25:19.880 he says, because you're not. He goes, you're letting everybody 1:25:19.920 --> 1:25:22.360 and everything push you around, and that's not who you are. 1:25:22.439 --> 1:25:24.320 And start, you know, start behaving in a way like 1:25:24.400 --> 1:25:26.880 you matter. And and I did, and it helped, you know, 1:25:26.920 --> 1:25:28.840 it all helped. And I, like I said to you earlier, 1:25:28.880 --> 1:25:30.439 we're talking on when I went to see Jessica, I 1:25:30.439 --> 1:25:32.240 walked in feeling like a zero. And I didn't come 1:25:32.240 --> 1:25:33.559 out feeling like a hero, but I felt I came 1:25:33.600 --> 1:25:36.160 out feeling like a seven. And then the my energy 1:25:36.200 --> 1:25:39.600 really changed and things started really Okay, You've had this peripatetic, 1:25:39.760 --> 1:25:43.200 incredibly successful career in the music business and the thirty 1:25:43.320 --> 1:25:46.439 or forty years you have left personally, what would you 1:25:46.479 --> 1:25:51.160 like to achieve? Um? Well, you know, as you know, 1:25:51.439 --> 1:25:55.800 my overriding passion, obsession whatever for the last twenty five 1:25:55.880 --> 1:25:58.519 years has been reforming the criminal justice system, a limiting 1:25:58.560 --> 1:26:03.840 mandatory sentencing, decriminalizing weed, and most importantly, getting people out 1:26:03.840 --> 1:26:05.519 of prison that don't belong there. I mean, that's really 1:26:06.000 --> 1:26:09.519 and and that has you know been. I mean, I've 1:26:09.520 --> 1:26:11.559 been at the Innocence Project on the founding board member 1:26:11.560 --> 1:26:13.280 of the Inncence Project that I've been working on that 1:26:13.479 --> 1:26:15.799 just for people who maybe out of the loop, explain 1:26:15.840 --> 1:26:18.880 what the Innocence Project is. So, the Innocence Project is 1:26:18.920 --> 1:26:24.280 an organization that utilizes DNA to prove innocence in cases 1:26:24.320 --> 1:26:29.479 in which people have been convicted of heinous violent crimes. Um. 1:26:29.560 --> 1:26:31.240 It doesn't always prove innocence, by the way, supin as 1:26:31.280 --> 1:26:34.840 it proves guilt, but we're able to re examine cases. Uh. 1:26:35.000 --> 1:26:37.360 And we know now that the incidents of wrongful convictions 1:26:37.400 --> 1:26:40.960 in this country are astoundingly high. There have been so 1:26:41.080 --> 1:26:44.880 many executions of people who are innocent and um and 1:26:45.040 --> 1:26:47.080 it it just it touches me in a way. I mean, 1:26:47.120 --> 1:26:49.200 I've always been a very empathetic person. I've always wanted 1:26:49.240 --> 1:26:53.040 to help the helpless, um, whether that's a person and 1:26:53.120 --> 1:26:56.679 animal or whatever. And I could never think of anything 1:26:56.800 --> 1:26:59.800 worse than being locked up in our gulag system and 1:27:00.000 --> 1:27:03.920 these violent, dark, terrible places of these prisons that we 1:27:04.000 --> 1:27:07.360 have here for something you didn't do. And so um, 1:27:07.880 --> 1:27:11.679 so it's been my mission to help get these people 1:27:11.920 --> 1:27:14.640 out that are actually innocent and then to help them 1:27:14.720 --> 1:27:17.360 once they do get out, because it's the second punishment 1:27:17.439 --> 1:27:20.439 when you get out and you have you know, you've 1:27:20.520 --> 1:27:23.240 missed twenty years, Right, what do you do? How's your 1:27:23.240 --> 1:27:25.280 resume looking? How do you use a phone? How do 1:27:25.320 --> 1:27:26.840 you don't even know what an ATM card is? How 1:27:26.880 --> 1:27:28.439 do you get a license? Like? It's a it's a 1:27:29.120 --> 1:27:33.640 you know, it's a Really it's an unbelievable thing for 1:27:33.760 --> 1:27:35.519 people to go through, and it happens, like I said, 1:27:35.600 --> 1:27:38.599 way too often. So so that's been my h that's 1:27:38.640 --> 1:27:39.880 been my thing, and that's what I want to and 1:27:39.920 --> 1:27:41.240 that's what I'm That's not what I want to do. 1:27:41.360 --> 1:27:43.880 Is what I'm going to keep doing until my last breath. Okay, 1:27:43.960 --> 1:27:49.040 So that is very soul fulfilling, not incredibly lucrative at 1:27:49.080 --> 1:27:52.880 this point in time, business making money, business status? How 1:27:52.960 --> 1:27:55.960 important to you? Yeah, it's it's not lucrative at all. 1:27:56.080 --> 1:27:58.640 It's actually the opposite. But it's fine. I mean, it 1:27:58.680 --> 1:28:02.800 doesn't matter. Um no, I'm really it's funny. Uh. You 1:28:02.880 --> 1:28:08.080 know Ron Burkele who's the legendary um supermarket supermarket king 1:28:08.200 --> 1:28:13.080 but entrepreneur in hundred a hundred companies. He go into something. 1:28:13.120 --> 1:28:17.040 It's it's at breakfast one this morning. But Ron uh 1:28:17.360 --> 1:28:19.560 Ron said something interesting to me. I reminded him of 1:28:19.720 --> 1:28:22.519 this today. He said to me, you know, guys like you, 1:28:22.640 --> 1:28:25.680 successful guys typically after they get divorced take about three 1:28:25.760 --> 1:28:27.400 years to make back all the money they gave away 1:28:27.400 --> 1:28:30.120 in the divorce. And now it's funny because I see 1:28:30.680 --> 1:28:32.840 what he was talking about. I mean, I am in 1:28:33.600 --> 1:28:36.160 I'm in such heavy work mode, and I'm feeling more 1:28:36.240 --> 1:28:40.160 creative and inspired than I have in memory. And I'm 1:28:40.600 --> 1:28:43.800 much more interested in that than doing you know, well, 1:28:43.880 --> 1:28:47.160 I want to build businesses. I want to continue to 1:28:47.360 --> 1:28:49.040 work in the music industry. Of course, I'm having this 1:28:49.120 --> 1:28:51.439 wonderful success with Greti van Fleet right now, which is 1:28:51.479 --> 1:28:55.439 just the most fun and um, and you know, I 1:28:55.560 --> 1:28:58.519 want to create new things and I want to make 1:28:58.560 --> 1:29:01.639 a lot of fucking money so I can give it away. Okay, 1:29:01.680 --> 1:29:03.360 So at this point in time, how much of your 1:29:04.160 --> 1:29:07.000 day is filled with philanthropy and how much time with business. 1:29:07.160 --> 1:29:09.000 I spend a lot of time on philanthropy. I have 1:29:09.120 --> 1:29:12.639 no idea what the percentages, but it's a lot and um. 1:29:12.800 --> 1:29:14.880 But it actually, you know, it's good too. I mean 1:29:15.000 --> 1:29:17.400 artists are attracted to me sometimes because of the fact 1:29:17.479 --> 1:29:19.280 that they know about me from that work, you know, 1:29:19.439 --> 1:29:24.600 so it really works together, UM. And you know, of 1:29:24.720 --> 1:29:27.280 course I launched my podcast I don't know whatever it 1:29:27.400 --> 1:29:29.080 was four seasons ago, a year, a year and a 1:29:29.080 --> 1:29:31.720 half ago, and that's been, you know, a real joy 1:29:31.840 --> 1:29:33.960 for me. And what are you telling the audience exactly 1:29:34.040 --> 1:29:36.200 what the podcast is? So I have a podcast called 1:29:36.240 --> 1:29:40.760 Wrongful Conviction UM, and on the podcast, I interview each 1:29:40.840 --> 1:29:43.519 week a man or woman who was wrongly convicted and 1:29:43.600 --> 1:29:46.559 sentenced to decades or life in prison, or even sentenced 1:29:46.600 --> 1:29:50.880 to death and ultimately exonerated and proven actually innocent. And 1:29:51.400 --> 1:29:54.040 you know, some of them served thirty or more years 1:29:54.080 --> 1:29:57.840 in prison for something they did not do and again 1:29:57.840 --> 1:29:59.320 and some of them were sentenced to death. And sometimes 1:29:59.360 --> 1:30:02.160 I go inside prisons as well, inside maximum security prisons 1:30:02.200 --> 1:30:06.040 to interview people who I have evidence are innocent, but 1:30:06.320 --> 1:30:09.439 for whom the justice system is not working, and so 1:30:10.080 --> 1:30:12.400 to help bring attention to their cases. We recently had 1:30:12.439 --> 1:30:14.600 one of our people that was on the show exonerated 1:30:14.800 --> 1:30:16.880 UM in Kansas City after twenty three years, which was 1:30:16.920 --> 1:30:19.320 such a wonderful feeling. And called me from the courthouse steps. 1:30:19.600 --> 1:30:23.360 So you know, it's an incredibly rewarding process. The things 1:30:23.439 --> 1:30:26.680 you pick up from the people themselves who are so 1:30:27.040 --> 1:30:31.280 graceful and so kind and so optimistic and they lack bitterness, 1:30:31.520 --> 1:30:34.160 and I don't understand it. I asked every one of them, 1:30:34.280 --> 1:30:36.479 and I've heard them all explained it in different ways. 1:30:36.600 --> 1:30:40.120 But you know, it's amazing because it puts so much 1:30:40.160 --> 1:30:42.800 gratitude in my attitude. I mean, the idea that I'm 1:30:42.840 --> 1:30:44.680 able to help them. And it's funny, Bob, because now 1:30:45.040 --> 1:30:46.880 it's like when you walked in today. I was on 1:30:46.960 --> 1:30:48.839 the phone with a guy who's in a maximum security 1:30:48.880 --> 1:30:50.920 prison in Virginia whose case I've been working on for 1:30:50.960 --> 1:30:53.320 a year and it's gonna be featured. You know, my 1:30:53.479 --> 1:30:57.639 phone rings a lot with calls like that, and I've 1:30:58.040 --> 1:31:02.880 was recently, um know, very very lucky to get um 1:31:03.439 --> 1:31:06.880 clemency for three people actually last week who were serving 1:31:06.960 --> 1:31:10.400 life in prison through just hard work and connecting the dots. 1:31:10.439 --> 1:31:12.400 And that's outside of the Innocence Project, because I take 1:31:12.439 --> 1:31:15.360 on cases on my own sometimes too. Obviously there's only 1:31:15.400 --> 1:31:17.640 so much a person, one person can do. But I 1:31:17.760 --> 1:31:20.000 heard about a case in this particular situation, not a 1:31:20.040 --> 1:31:22.240 guy who was innocent, but it got named Travian Blount, 1:31:22.720 --> 1:31:25.439 who had been sentenced to six life terms plus a 1:31:25.520 --> 1:31:28.200 hundred and eighteen years in prison. He was fifteen years 1:31:28.200 --> 1:31:32.439 old and he participated in a robbery. No one was shot. 1:31:33.400 --> 1:31:36.400 One person got hit, but they weren't seriously hurt, and 1:31:36.520 --> 1:31:40.400 not by him. And it was the robbery of a party. 1:31:41.640 --> 1:31:44.360 He shouldn't have been there, he shouldn't have participated. He 1:31:44.479 --> 1:31:47.639 did carry a gun, he didn't have any prior arrest though, 1:31:47.920 --> 1:31:51.320 it was fifteen fucking years old. And this has gotten 1:31:51.400 --> 1:31:55.000 national news because it's so outrageous that it's just unbelievable 1:31:55.240 --> 1:31:58.120 and so um he was one of the people who 1:31:58.160 --> 1:32:02.479 I was able to help. Um convinced the powers that 1:32:02.560 --> 1:32:05.479 be should be freed, and he was granted clemency last week. So, 1:32:05.640 --> 1:32:08.400 if we could do two things in America or the 1:32:08.479 --> 1:32:12.920 criminal justice system to move things in the direction that 1:32:13.040 --> 1:32:16.360 you're mentioning, we're in a innocent people are not incarcerated, 1:32:16.400 --> 1:32:18.680 what would those be. That's a great question. I mean, 1:32:19.080 --> 1:32:22.439 there are so many problems I think we need. One 1:32:22.520 --> 1:32:24.920 of the first changes we need is mandatory videotaping of 1:32:24.960 --> 1:32:28.479 interrogations um, because there's so many false confessions, and it's 1:32:28.479 --> 1:32:30.640 important for people who are listening to know that when 1:32:30.680 --> 1:32:32.880 you go on a jury, you need to have a 1:32:33.040 --> 1:32:37.240 more informed and educated and skeptical view. I'm not a 1:32:37.360 --> 1:32:40.320 person who doesn't believe of injustice system. I'm I always 1:32:40.320 --> 1:32:43.479 say I'm not soft on crime, I'm tough on injustice. Um, 1:32:43.800 --> 1:32:46.280 I'm not an anarchist by any means, but you need 1:32:46.320 --> 1:32:48.519 to know that just because somebody confess, or just because 1:32:48.560 --> 1:32:51.200 the police officers saying this, or just because of prosecutorcy this, 1:32:51.320 --> 1:32:53.320 or just because a quote unquote expert is saying X, 1:32:53.439 --> 1:32:55.479 Y or Z doesn't mean it's true. And you have 1:32:55.520 --> 1:32:59.400 an obligation to be there for your fellow human being 1:32:59.600 --> 1:33:02.240 and really dive into it and make an informed decision 1:33:02.640 --> 1:33:04.800 whether it's guilty or innocent. You better try your best 1:33:04.880 --> 1:33:06.760 to get it right. And I think a lot of 1:33:06.800 --> 1:33:08.880 people like I used to have a view that if 1:33:09.040 --> 1:33:11.439 the authority figures up there saying something, it must be true, 1:33:11.439 --> 1:33:13.679 and if somebody confess, it must be that they're guilty. 1:33:13.760 --> 1:33:16.519 But how the funk do we not videotape interrogations? How 1:33:16.560 --> 1:33:18.599 do you because what happens is Bob and they're only 1:33:18.720 --> 1:33:20.240 there are twenty five states now that have managed with 1:33:20.320 --> 1:33:23.559 video tape interrogation, twenty five that don't, and only one 1:33:23.880 --> 1:33:27.040 that's just for just for by edification. Does it breakdown 1:33:27.080 --> 1:33:30.479 on red and blue? Uh? I don't know. No, I 1:33:30.520 --> 1:33:32.880 don't think so, because New York only recently passed it. 1:33:33.200 --> 1:33:35.240 Um it didn't have it for all these years. I 1:33:35.360 --> 1:33:37.800 mean so, And you know what happens is they they'll go, 1:33:37.960 --> 1:33:39.120 you go in that little room, and I had to 1:33:39.120 --> 1:33:41.519 detective them. I'm retired. Any TV detective on my show 1:33:41.720 --> 1:33:43.880 and YPD detective on my show recently who said, if 1:33:43.880 --> 1:33:45.800 I got you in that room, you weren't leaving until 1:33:45.840 --> 1:33:48.120 you confessed, And I was like, and then, you know 1:33:48.200 --> 1:33:50.360 they can lie. First of all, anyone's listening. If you 1:33:50.439 --> 1:33:53.479 get arrested, you know what you should say nothing. You 1:33:53.520 --> 1:33:56.960 should say I want a lawyer, and stop talking, because 1:33:57.479 --> 1:33:59.320 once they get you in that room, they can lie 1:33:59.400 --> 1:34:01.720 all they want. They go, Bob, listen, man, we got 1:34:01.840 --> 1:34:04.920 your fingerprints on the murder weapon. We have a videotape 1:34:04.920 --> 1:34:07.560 of you at the place we got your co conspirit 1:34:07.640 --> 1:34:09.280 or in the other rooms saying you did it. You 1:34:09.360 --> 1:34:11.599 better come clean. Man. Because it's the best way out 1:34:11.680 --> 1:34:13.439 for you. You know you're gonna get we're gonna be 1:34:13.520 --> 1:34:16.720 nice to you if you confess, and they there's so 1:34:16.800 --> 1:34:18.479 many cases people have been on my show who've been 1:34:18.479 --> 1:34:20.800 beaten in those rooms and then they bring you out 1:34:20.840 --> 1:34:22.600 of the room. They had a whole protocol called the 1:34:22.640 --> 1:34:26.160 Red method that is designed. It's a it's a psychological 1:34:26.680 --> 1:34:29.760 technique that's designed to elicit confessions, whether the person is 1:34:29.760 --> 1:34:33.080 guilty or innocent, and it works. And sometimes violence, actual 1:34:33.160 --> 1:34:36.320 violence is employed. Sometimes it's psychological violence. But either way, 1:34:36.560 --> 1:34:38.679 you get so trapped in that room that you see 1:34:38.720 --> 1:34:40.320 no way out other than to tell them what they 1:34:40.360 --> 1:34:43.040 want to hear. And many of these people like Johnny 1:34:43.080 --> 1:34:45.000 and Cape who was on my show, who was convicted 1:34:45.040 --> 1:34:46.960 of that notorious murder in New York State where the 1:34:47.040 --> 1:34:49.880 tourists were there going to the US Open and a 1:34:49.960 --> 1:34:52.040 gang of kids got on the subway to rob them 1:34:52.120 --> 1:34:54.200 and the mother was being pushed around and the son 1:34:54.360 --> 1:34:56.360 came to her aid and was stabbed to death. Johnny 1:34:56.439 --> 1:34:59.240 was convicted of that murder even though they knew he 1:34:59.439 --> 1:35:02.280 wasn't there, and he was tortured in the police station. 1:35:02.479 --> 1:35:04.720 Um he was he was beaten, he had hair pull 1:35:04.760 --> 1:35:07.200 out of his head, and at one point a cop 1:35:07.240 --> 1:35:09.280 who was a notorious cop who was also involved in 1:35:09.320 --> 1:35:11.840 the Central Part five case said to him, Um, we're 1:35:11.840 --> 1:35:13.599 gonna kill you and dump your body in the alley, 1:35:14.080 --> 1:35:16.080 and no one's gonna know about it unless you signed 1:35:16.120 --> 1:35:18.320 this piece of paper. So he says, you know, people 1:35:18.360 --> 1:35:20.000 say to me, why would I confess? I say, why 1:35:20.040 --> 1:35:22.680 wouldn't I confess? I've seen what they're capable of? Right, 1:35:22.760 --> 1:35:24.519 And he was a guy's eighteen years old that's never 1:35:24.600 --> 1:35:27.200 been in trouble with dancer. D you imagine yourself that situation. 1:35:27.640 --> 1:35:30.600 So nancwer tap of interrogation, and I think that we 1:35:30.840 --> 1:35:35.559 must have prosecutorial accountability. There's a story about an exonarian 1:35:35.640 --> 1:35:37.679 named Robert Jones has been on my podcast, who served 1:35:37.720 --> 1:35:40.120 twenty three years in prison, and he not only did 1:35:40.160 --> 1:35:41.800 they know he was innocent, but in his case, it 1:35:41.880 --> 1:35:45.280 was a crime spree that continued after he was arrested 1:35:45.360 --> 1:35:48.160 with exactly the same m O, which led to a 1:35:48.280 --> 1:35:51.400 very violent crime spree, which led to the homicide detective 1:35:51.439 --> 1:35:54.240 who had originally arrested him going to the prosecutor. As 1:35:54.280 --> 1:35:57.280 he was being held in jail, and saying, listen, man, 1:35:58.000 --> 1:36:00.439 I've been doing this for thirty years and I never 1:36:00.600 --> 1:36:04.200 said this before, but I arrested the wrong guy. It's 1:36:04.280 --> 1:36:08.400 not him, and the prosecutors said, I don't care, And 1:36:08.760 --> 1:36:11.880 so this guy was uh. It took four years for 1:36:11.960 --> 1:36:13.360 him to get to trial. He was held in jail 1:36:13.400 --> 1:36:16.160 for four years, and they framed him so egregiously. And 1:36:16.280 --> 1:36:19.599 now he has filed suit today against the New Orleans 1:36:19.680 --> 1:36:23.800 Prosecutor's office for uh. He's shown he able to show 1:36:23.920 --> 1:36:29.000 forty five individual cases, including his own, of prosecutorial misconduct, 1:36:29.040 --> 1:36:33.200 of withholding exculpatory evidence, of lying, of cheating, of gaming 1:36:33.240 --> 1:36:36.720 the system of doing such egregious things that led to 1:36:37.400 --> 1:36:40.240 innocent people, many of whom were sentenced to death. You know, 1:36:40.439 --> 1:36:43.559 Like so yeah, I mean, and I could we could 1:36:43.560 --> 1:36:45.120 go on with this all day, but I mean, we gotta. 1:36:45.320 --> 1:36:46.920 We have to abolish the death penalty. I mean, here 1:36:46.960 --> 1:36:50.120 in California they just passed a horrendous death penalty speed 1:36:50.200 --> 1:36:52.519 up referendum, Like, what's beat up? What the funk are 1:36:52.560 --> 1:36:55.000 you talking about? Speed it up? Well, you know, I 1:36:55.160 --> 1:36:58.080 just remember, you know, I come from a background where 1:36:58.160 --> 1:37:00.200 you know, what is the real truth? I remember your 1:37:00.280 --> 1:37:04.760 Jewel at the nineties Atlanta Olympics. I was convinced that 1:37:04.800 --> 1:37:08.120 guy was guilty. He wasn't. So there are plenty of 1:37:08.200 --> 1:37:10.519 people who are really not guilty and conventional wisdom, but 1:37:10.600 --> 1:37:13.840 our society has turned it large. I mean, I'm a 1:37:13.960 --> 1:37:16.760 child of the sixties, love, peace and happiness, where now 1:37:17.000 --> 1:37:22.000 it's I've got mine, screw you. So ultimately going. But 1:37:22.200 --> 1:37:25.799 moving from this very important work back to the business sphere. 1:37:26.439 --> 1:37:30.439 In your thirty five odd your career, what are the 1:37:30.680 --> 1:37:35.040 changes that you've seen in entertainment i e. Music that 1:37:35.880 --> 1:37:38.719 I don't mean like a delineation of what literally happened. 1:37:38.760 --> 1:37:41.200 We all know about MTV and Napster, but in terms 1:37:41.240 --> 1:37:44.960 of what music means, the society, where the acts come from, 1:37:45.280 --> 1:37:47.800 where it all leads. How do you assess today as 1:37:47.880 --> 1:37:51.280 opposed to earlier in your career. Well, I'm hoping that 1:37:51.479 --> 1:37:56.200 music will, um, you know, take a turn towards the 1:37:56.360 --> 1:37:59.280 activism side, um, which is obviously such a big part 1:37:59.320 --> 1:38:02.840 of my life, and that people will artists will start 1:38:03.000 --> 1:38:06.799 creating um, you know, the modern day equivalent of Ohio 1:38:07.280 --> 1:38:10.280 or Masters of War or some of the great protest songs. 1:38:10.840 --> 1:38:12.840 And there have been some mostly from now. It's coming 1:38:12.880 --> 1:38:14.760 from the hip hop side, but I think rock is 1:38:14.800 --> 1:38:17.760 going to make a comeback and I'm excited. So told 1:38:17.760 --> 1:38:19.400 me why. You have Greta Van Fleet, which is the 1:38:19.439 --> 1:38:22.600 most successful rock band of the last twelve months. But 1:38:23.040 --> 1:38:25.360 they made it to number one Active Rock, but it 1:38:25.439 --> 1:38:27.880 hasn't permeated the culture at large. What do you think 1:38:28.400 --> 1:38:30.439 is going on there? Oh, yeah, it's it's I think 1:38:30.600 --> 1:38:32.280 I think you have to disagree with you there. I 1:38:32.280 --> 1:38:34.200 think it's definitely permeating the culture at large. I have 1:38:34.320 --> 1:38:36.200 every day, including on the way over here at somebody 1:38:36.240 --> 1:38:39.000 tell me that they're they're fifteen sixty year old kids 1:38:39.000 --> 1:38:42.040 who don't listen to anything like this are jamming out 1:38:42.080 --> 1:38:45.320 to Greta Van Fleet. It's it's you know, it's gone 1:38:45.479 --> 1:38:48.639 viral and we're just scratching the surface now. But it's 1:38:48.640 --> 1:38:50.840 been at the top of the iTunes charts forever. The 1:38:50.920 --> 1:38:53.639 streaming numbers are catching up, the ticket sales are insane. 1:38:54.000 --> 1:38:55.680 So what does it take to make it as big 1:38:55.760 --> 1:38:58.320 as a hip hop track? Oh? I think that they're 1:38:58.360 --> 1:39:01.160 gonna you know, they're gonna, of right, They've already written 1:39:01.280 --> 1:39:02.800 at least one song that I think is going to 1:39:02.920 --> 1:39:07.000 really catch the you know, a very different segment of 1:39:07.040 --> 1:39:10.240 the audience and propel them to much greater heights. I 1:39:10.280 --> 1:39:12.360 think it's all happening the way it's supposed to, you know, 1:39:12.439 --> 1:39:14.880 like it shouldn't. They shouldn't be overnight successes, but they 1:39:14.920 --> 1:39:17.200 are actually if you think about it. But yeah, it's 1:39:17.360 --> 1:39:20.560 it's a it's a great slow build that's going to 1:39:20.680 --> 1:39:22.439 get to a place where they're going to be headlining 1:39:22.439 --> 1:39:25.599 arenas in twelve to eighteen months, and and the record 1:39:25.640 --> 1:39:29.280 sales will catch up accordingly. So you believe we're poised 1:39:29.320 --> 1:39:32.080 for a rock comeback. Were pois for a rock comeback? 1:39:32.160 --> 1:39:34.800 You know. I've recently established the movement called the Church 1:39:34.840 --> 1:39:37.200 of Rock and Roll, which I'm very excited about. And 1:39:37.360 --> 1:39:40.400 it's a lifestyle brand wrapped up in a movement which 1:39:40.439 --> 1:39:42.160 stands for all the things I believe in. You know, 1:39:42.240 --> 1:39:44.719 our first commandment is be kind to yourself, to other people, 1:39:44.760 --> 1:39:48.200 to animals in the earth. Um. And that's UM and 1:39:48.320 --> 1:39:50.200 it flows out her from there. It's all about personal 1:39:50.280 --> 1:39:53.880 freedom and expression and UM and being you know, being 1:39:53.960 --> 1:39:57.400 the best version of you and and helping other people. Right. Um. 1:39:57.479 --> 1:40:00.880 It's the opposite of objectivism, so to speak and um 1:40:01.479 --> 1:40:03.800 and I uh and it feels like this is going 1:40:03.840 --> 1:40:05.560 to be I mean, this is this is to me 1:40:06.560 --> 1:40:10.080 my next and my really my biggest act because I 1:40:10.160 --> 1:40:14.560 believe this is going to become transformative and um, and 1:40:14.680 --> 1:40:17.560 I'm really excited. I'm I'm talking to some of the 1:40:17.640 --> 1:40:20.800 most amazing people in the world, some of the top 1:40:20.880 --> 1:40:25.760 business people with expertise that I couldn't begin to approach, 1:40:25.960 --> 1:40:31.120 who are all excited about building, building this into a 1:40:31.479 --> 1:40:34.280 you know, I want I wanted to be the counterculture Margaritaville. 1:40:34.560 --> 1:40:37.599 You know that's my idea. And I'm not gonna get 1:40:37.600 --> 1:40:39.360 into all the details now, but you're gonna see it 1:40:39.479 --> 1:40:42.960 emerging and it's really exciting and fun. Jason, You've been wonderful. 1:40:43.280 --> 1:40:46.040 We've only scratched the surface. Thanks so much for appearing. 1:40:46.280 --> 1:40:48.320 Thank you, and please don't forget to follow me on 1:40:48.400 --> 1:40:51.639 Instagram at it's Jason Flam because that's where I post 1:40:51.760 --> 1:40:54.880 my best stuff. And also, how do they find your podcast? 1:40:55.200 --> 1:41:02.559 The podcast is Wrongful Conviction. It's available everywhere iTunes, Pandora, Spotify, um, 1:41:03.400 --> 1:41:08.360 It's available on every everywhere. Also tune in. Thanks so much, Jason. 1:41:08.400 --> 1:41:10.880 Until next time, It's Bob Left Set. We've got a 1:41:10.920 --> 1:41:19.559 wonderful time here with Jason Flower Bob here. I want 1:41:19.560 --> 1:41:22.160 to thank everyone for listening to this episode. If you 1:41:22.280 --> 1:41:24.800 heard something in this episode or a previous episode that 1:41:24.840 --> 1:41:27.600 piqued your interests, go ahead and email your comments to 1:41:27.640 --> 1:41:29.840 be at Bob at left sets dot com. I'd love 1:41:29.920 --> 1:41:32.080 to hear your thoughts on the stories we covered, and 1:41:32.160 --> 1:41:35.519 there's sure to be more exciting ones to come. Tune 1:41:35.560 --> 1:41:39.599 in next week for more edification and information. Until next time, 1:41:39.640 --> 1:41:40.679 it's Bob Left Set