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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the Bob Left Sets podcast. My

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Speaker 1: guest this week is Jason Flam. Talent, signer, developer, maker, extraordinary,

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Speaker 1: legendary philanthropists. Good to have you here, Jason throughout to

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Speaker 1: be here, Bob. You know, it's nice to see the

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Speaker 1: letter that I've read for these decades, or EON's whatever

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Speaker 1: it's been, you know, come to life. So your father

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Speaker 1: was a legendary New York lawyer. Did you know that

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Speaker 1: growing up? Well, he wasn't when I was little, right,

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Speaker 1: he became and it wasn't. I mean, I just know

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Speaker 1: for those who don't know, there's a huge section on

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Speaker 1: Jason's father in Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers that tells a

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Speaker 1: lot of his story. Now, he ultimately got into a

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Speaker 1: mergers and acquisitions and other things. So when you're growing up,

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Speaker 1: what was the status of his career? Right? So this,

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Speaker 1: the chapter about my dad and Outliers is called the

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Speaker 1: Three Lessons of Joe Flam, and I can talk about him.

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Speaker 1: We spend the whole pocast talking about him because he

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Speaker 1: was my hero and my role model and everything and

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Speaker 1: my mentor, etcetera. So are my most important mentor. But

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Speaker 1: The amazing thing about my dad is that he was

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Speaker 1: the son of immigrants who spoke no English. They spoke Yiddish.

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Speaker 1: He grew up so poor that in Brooklyn in those days,

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Speaker 1: you could your first month's rent was free if you

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Speaker 1: would move into an apartment. So they would move every

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Speaker 1: month for a period of years. Apparently they moved every month,

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Speaker 1: just my dad and his sister, Flow and their parents.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, my sister's name was Flow Flam, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of funny, but it's true. So anyway, um so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he went to City College at night. Well what did

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Speaker 1: the father do for a living? He was a labor organizer,

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Speaker 1: but he's unemployed most of the time. And I think

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Speaker 1: his mother was like an unemployed seamstress or something. Um so,

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Speaker 1: uh so, may I went to City College at night,

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Speaker 1: but you can graduate. Because World War two broke out,

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Speaker 1: so he went to the army. And when he got

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Speaker 1: out of the army, he would letter to Harvard Law

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Speaker 1: School and he said, I don't have any money and

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Speaker 1: I don't have a college degree, but I'm the best

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Speaker 1: thing since sliced bread, and if you let me, and

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Speaker 1: you won't regret it. And they gave him a full scholarship,

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Speaker 1: and then he went on to become of course, you know,

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Speaker 1: some people say the greatest lawyer of the twenties century,

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Speaker 1: certainly the greatest corporate lawyer of the twentieth century by

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Speaker 1: anybody's estimation. So you're growing up, what's the status of

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Speaker 1: his career. So the first time I realized that he was,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of a big mucketing muck was when

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Speaker 1: the New York Times we used to get New York

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Speaker 1: Times delivered. I still do. I like the actual paper.

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Speaker 1: I read the paper too. It's study when you read

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Speaker 1: it online, you missed certain stuff. So my dad showed

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Speaker 1: up on the front page of the New York Times

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Speaker 1: and I saw his picture on. So he didn't tell

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Speaker 1: you it was gonna be just the I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: if he knew, because it wasn't a picture of him.

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Speaker 1: It was a picture of him, you know, with doing something.

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Speaker 1: But um, I remember saying to that day I got dad,

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Speaker 1: I don't know why this occurred to me. I was

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Speaker 1: like that are we rich? And he was like, no,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you mean whatever, because you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, we lived nicely, but it wasn't like Limos,

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Speaker 1: and you know, we flew coach and it wasn't like

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I'm not listen. I know I'm privileged.

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Speaker 1: I know I was born. The spoon wasn't silvery, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it turned silver while was growing up. And I

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Speaker 1: was a child of private schools and etcetera. But um,

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Speaker 1: the you know, I had less allowance than my friends

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Speaker 1: and things like that. I think my parents were pretty

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Speaker 1: careful to keep And my dad told my brother and

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Speaker 1: I that he was gonna give all his money to charity.

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Speaker 1: So he's like, whatever I make because going away. So

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Speaker 1: you guys better go make your own. And are you

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Speaker 1: the older brother, younger brother? I'm a younger brother, And

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Speaker 1: where's your older brother today? My older Brother's a great

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Speaker 1: story because my older brother was born almost two and

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Speaker 1: a half months early and almost didn't survive. They didn't

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Speaker 1: know how to deal with that so well back then,

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Speaker 1: and he, uh famously, the doctor came out and said

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Speaker 1: to my mother, your son's gonna live, but he's never

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Speaker 1: going to go to college or anything like that. And

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Speaker 1: so he had severe learning disabilities and physical problems and

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Speaker 1: coordination problems, and uh so when it came time to

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Speaker 1: go to school, there were no schools for kids like

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Speaker 1: him because he wasn't technically in any of the categories.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't so messed up that he could go to

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Speaker 1: the school for what they used to call retarded kids

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Speaker 1: back then, right, but we don't call them that, but uh,

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Speaker 1: And he couldn't go to regular school. So my mom,

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Speaker 1: who had no background an education, started school, um called

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Speaker 1: the Gateway School, and my brother was the first student.

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Speaker 1: And now he's got his PhD and psychometrics and so

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Speaker 1: the school is still the best school of its kind.

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Speaker 1: What is psychometrics, it's the psychology of statistics. So basically

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Speaker 1: he's fine, He's fine. Yeah, he's fine. I mean, he

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Speaker 1: had very difficult childhood because it was different than other kids,

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Speaker 1: and it was something that's really still bothers me to

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Speaker 1: this day, the fact that he was picked on and

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Speaker 1: was bullied, um and um. And there was nothing I

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Speaker 1: could do about it. But there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who grew up in that situation and it affects

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Speaker 1: the family because it affects them because all the attention

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Speaker 1: is paid to the child with difficulty. Did you feel

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Speaker 1: that growing up? No, not at all. I didn't feel

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Speaker 1: that way. Um. You know, there was you know, my

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Speaker 1: family was odd. I mean, my dad was at the

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Speaker 1: office almost all the time, you know, because he was

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Speaker 1: building his you know, his legacy and um. And I

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Speaker 1: thought that was normal. And my mom was a lovely woman,

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Speaker 1: but she didn't know how to show love. She had

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Speaker 1: no idea like there was And I didn't even realize

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Speaker 1: is it until she was gone. And my sister, who

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Speaker 1: not around anymore, but my sister and my half sister,

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Speaker 1: told me that my mom had never you know, hugged

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Speaker 1: us or played with us, or read us a story

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Speaker 1: or even touched us, or never said I love you

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Speaker 1: like she couldn't do it. Even if I would say

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Speaker 1: it to her, she couldn't say it back. Well, we

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Speaker 1: didn't say that. My mother didn't say it. You know,

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Speaker 1: on some level, it's children of that era. Although my mother,

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Speaker 1: I think probably shouldn't have had children, would have been

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Speaker 1: a career woman in a different era. And as the result,

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Speaker 1: it messes you up as an adult because you don't

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Speaker 1: know how to say those things. But I didn't know

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Speaker 1: what I was missing. You knew what you were missing. No,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know it either. I no idea. I thought

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Speaker 1: it was just normal. I did it didn't occur to

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Speaker 1: me until until well until my sister told me, which

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Speaker 1: was probably ten years ago. And then I've learned in

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Speaker 1: various forms of therapy what that meant. And so just

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Speaker 1: to get the story straight, so I understand your half

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Speaker 1: sister is your mother was married before she was married

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Speaker 1: to your father. My mother was married to one of

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Speaker 1: the guys who cracked the Japanese code in World War two, um,

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Speaker 1: and then they were divorced, which was not a common thing,

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Speaker 1: very uncommon. And then she became a decorator, and my dad,

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Speaker 1: who was penniless, was in had gotten a job as

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Speaker 1: an associate and a law firm that had no clients,

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Speaker 1: UM called Scadding Arps Slate mart eventually became Scadin Art

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Speaker 1: Slate Martin flamm I was known as Scadding Um and

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Speaker 1: so they had four partners in one associated and no clients.

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Speaker 1: Actually his first client was a guy named Coutzy beg Desh,

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Speaker 1: but that's a different story. But he was in a

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Speaker 1: horrendous car accident. He was in He was a passenger

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Speaker 1: in a tax He had a stop later and an

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Speaker 1: off duty cop plowed into it. It was drunk or

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Speaker 1: fell asleep plot into the taxi. The driver was killed.

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Speaker 1: My dad ended up in the hospital for quite some time,

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Speaker 1: and when he got his insurance check, he decided to

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Speaker 1: decorate his apartment and he hired my mother. And that's

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Speaker 1: why I'm here. Wow. Okay, So you grow up in

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Speaker 1: that family even though your father is not around that.

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Speaker 1: But because he's working, is there a lot of pressure

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Speaker 1: to do well in school. So my dad said to me,

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Speaker 1: do whatever you want to do, try to be the

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Speaker 1: best data, but just make the world a better place.

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Speaker 1: He says, that's the meaning of success. And I wanted

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Speaker 1: to be a success in his eyes. And so that

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Speaker 1: stuck with me to this day. And I say it

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Speaker 1: when I give my speeches, I I quote him on

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Speaker 1: that because I think it's a really powerful quote. I've

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Speaker 1: told my kids out of course. He told my brother

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Speaker 1: as well, and I've tried to live up to that.

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Speaker 1: Um So the pressure really was um No, there wasn't

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Speaker 1: that much pressure in terms of that. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: was the best student in school until eighth grade. You know.

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Speaker 1: Bear in mind my dad was a legitimate genius and

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Speaker 1: my mom graduated Cornell when she was eighteen. So she said,

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Speaker 1: that's a crazy story. She graduated Cornell. She got buried

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Speaker 1: in divorce. It's like she was thirty years ahead of herself. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she was. She was an interesting moment with my mom.

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Speaker 1: So obviously very very you know, very smart and so

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Speaker 1: um the jeans were great. But so what happened in

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Speaker 1: eighth grade? In eighth grade, a friend of mine said

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Speaker 1: to me, um, hey, um uh, you know, I want

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Speaker 1: to come by the house, tod, I said, craty goes

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Speaker 1: want me to bring some reefer. I was like, I

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Speaker 1: had no idea what that was, but I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to admit that I didn't know what it was. I

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Speaker 1: was like, okay, So he brought it over. He brought

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Speaker 1: some reefer which we used to call it, and we

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Speaker 1: smoked whatever, some joints or something. And I remember we

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Speaker 1: were listening to The Who and the record was warped, right,

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Speaker 1: you know. It's like, I still it's weird that I

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Speaker 1: remember that all these years later. But so I found

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Speaker 1: you know, it was around this time. It took a

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Speaker 1: little while longer than that, but it was around nine

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Speaker 1: or tenth grade that I found out I wasn't. I

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Speaker 1: was almost good enough to make the sports teams, right.

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Speaker 1: I was like the last I went to Fieldston. So

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Speaker 1: I was like, you know, I have very quick hands

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Speaker 1: and slow feet, but slow feet are no good in

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Speaker 1: team sports, right, You can't. You can't make the soccer team.

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Speaker 1: You can't make the football team. You can't make the

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Speaker 1: basketball team because if you're slow, usually can't jump. So

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Speaker 1: I was like, well this sucks. I'm a monster ping

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Speaker 1: punk player, you know, like I can I could people

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Speaker 1: up at sports where you don't need to run. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm very good snowboarder, as you know, but anyway, so um,

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Speaker 1: but you can't run. So I couldn't make the sports teams.

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Speaker 1: So I decided I would play guitar and smoke weed.

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Speaker 1: And so then my grades took up, and then I

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Speaker 1: found gambling, and then things okay, well let's break this

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Speaker 1: down a little bit. You find these things, your grades

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Speaker 1: to go downhill. You're going to fields, and does anybody

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Speaker 1: raise their hand and say, hey, we've seen a dramatic change,

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Speaker 1: and Jay sin or do your parents freak out? I

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Speaker 1: think it was eighth or ninth grade. I was in

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Speaker 1: the they divided the math class. I think they still

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Speaker 1: do this. So they divided the kids up in the

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Speaker 1: math classes from the smartest to the least smart. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna be publicly correct, right. So there were six math

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Speaker 1: classes because it's about twenty kids in the grade, and

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Speaker 1: I was in the top class, and I was the

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Speaker 1: only one. The first day of class. The teacher's name

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Speaker 1: was Mr Spooner, and Mr Spooner gave us a test.

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Speaker 1: He didn't even say hello. He was not a very

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Speaker 1: nice man. Um. You know, he was one of these guys.

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Speaker 1: I don't care if the door was locked, You're still late,

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Speaker 1: you know. I mean that he was that guy. So

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Speaker 1: he gave us a test the first day school. I

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Speaker 1: was the only one that got forty out of forty right,

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Speaker 1: except for Tracy Bernstein on the makeup test, and I'm

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Speaker 1: still pissed at her about that. But anyway, so if

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Speaker 1: I was the only one, and there were kids in

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Speaker 1: that class to end up getting full scholarships to Harvard

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Speaker 1: Medical School, one kid, Paul Quintas, actually went to work

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Speaker 1: for NASA and he didn't get forty right. So I

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Speaker 1: was I was the smartest kid in the smartest class

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Speaker 1: in a very good school. And by the end of

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Speaker 1: the school year, I was getting five out of forty

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Speaker 1: right or seven? I mean, I was the worst kid

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Speaker 1: in the class, and nobody fucking noticed it. And I

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Speaker 1: smelled like weed all the time, I mean noticed it.

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Speaker 1: I thought, that's why you send your kids to private school.

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Speaker 1: Back then it was a little different though you could

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Speaker 1: no one could get it. And it's funny, you know.

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Speaker 1: James Deaner went to the school that that I went to,

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Speaker 1: about about ten years younger than me, and he said

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Speaker 1: they were still talking my my, miss my misdeeds because

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Speaker 1: I was such a druggy. I was a mess. So

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Speaker 1: how did you get into playing the guitar? My mom

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Speaker 1: bought me a guitar. I guess I asked her too.

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Speaker 1: When I was about that age, like thirteen, I remember

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Speaker 1: going to Why to take lessons. Then I had to

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Speaker 1: play first like Feeling Groovy and the ultimately conky tunk women.

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Speaker 1: And then the next thing was I think from my

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Speaker 1: fifteenth birthday she bought me an s g standard and

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Speaker 1: then I started a band and I played in the band.

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Speaker 1: I wrote songs and you know, and it it went

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Speaker 1: very well with the weed and the whole lifestyle. Okay,

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Speaker 1: was this a dream like you were gonna make it

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Speaker 1: and we're just hanging out? Oh no, no, I was

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Speaker 1: gonna make it. I was to make it. I had

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Speaker 1: this side, my eyes on the prize, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and that and that leads into the story. You know

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Speaker 1: what happened after the end of high school. Right, let's

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Speaker 1: talk on the for a second. You're playing in the band.

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Speaker 1: How much are you working? How much you rehearsing? We

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Speaker 1: rehearsing a lot and gigging very little, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: usually the paradigm. Yeah, And were you more into it

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Speaker 1: than everybody else? Yeah? Probably, I mean they we we

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Speaker 1: rehearsed a lot. The other guitar player was a guy

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Speaker 1: named Jeff Burston. He was the adopted son of Ellen Burston.

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Speaker 1: And we used to rehearse at her home in Rockland County,

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Speaker 1: which was a trip. How did you get there? There's

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Speaker 1: gonna take a somebody at a car and I mean

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Speaker 1: that's so, you know, we it was, but they had

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Speaker 1: a whole set up there. We rehearsed there. We were

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Speaker 1: even rehearsed like sometimes when my parents would go away. Um,

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Speaker 1: we had we had a we had a housekeeper. Her

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Speaker 1: name was Carmen. We used to call her the Black Tornado.

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Speaker 1: She was ultimately I think she was ultimately shot by

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Speaker 1: her lover or her husband who found her with her

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Speaker 1: lover or something like that. But anyway, she would but

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Speaker 1: my parents would go away. She'd move all the furniture.

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Speaker 1: We'd move all the furniture out. We would, that's right,

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Speaker 1: we'd move all the furnture out of the living room,

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Speaker 1: and the whole band would come. Our partment was on

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Speaker 1: seven nights to Madison, and we would have the band

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Speaker 1: and all our friends staying over for the whole weekend.

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Speaker 1: And it was just like a crazy fucking scene and

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Speaker 1: we would rehearse people. Then we were on the sixth

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Speaker 1: floor and people in the street would be looking up,

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Speaker 1: you know, because we were playing so loud. But I

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Speaker 1: don't know what the hell how we got away with this.

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Speaker 1: But and then when we would leave the housekeeper, we'd

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Speaker 1: go out to dinner on Sunday or lunch, whatever it was,

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Speaker 1: and they would come back and everything was back the

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Speaker 1: way it was. By herself, she would move all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: It was madness, incredible. Yea graduate from high school, you know,

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Speaker 1: you went to college, didn't go to n y U.

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Speaker 1: So I graduated from high school and I don't want

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Speaker 1: to go to college. Now you can imagine that was

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Speaker 1: not a popular choice in my Just to be clear,

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Speaker 1: you were going to go to college, you to do

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Speaker 1: what you're gonna become a rock star. Become a rock star.

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Speaker 1: And so my dad came to my room one day

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Speaker 1: and he says, I got a deal for you know.

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Speaker 1: First of all, I wasn't even sure he knew where

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Speaker 1: my room was, right, but he did. He's probably clear.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just interested. Okay, he's working twelve hours

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Speaker 1: a day during the weeks. He working the weekends too.

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Speaker 1: He's working more than twelve hours a day. Um, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's gadden. Even now, people work way more than especially

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Speaker 1: when you're on your way up, they work a hundred

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Speaker 1: hours a week. But a um, you know, but he

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Speaker 1: was working a lot, and he would come home for

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Speaker 1: dinner under threat of extreme violence from my mother and

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Speaker 1: then go back to the office. But um, but we

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Speaker 1: had great times together. And I don't I don't fault

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Speaker 1: to it all for that. Maybe it's I don't know why,

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Speaker 1: but it's just it's fine. So, um, he has a

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Speaker 1: deal for you. It comes to my room, he says,

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Speaker 1: I got a deal for you. I go. What he says, Um,

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Speaker 1: you have a year to become a rock star. Otherwise

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Speaker 1: you got to go to school. I'm like, great, Dad,

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Speaker 1: you gotta deal me, thinking that, you know, because what

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Speaker 1: I lacked in talent I made up for in hutzpah. Right,

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Speaker 1: So I was like, I don't even need a whole

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Speaker 1: fucking anymore. Right I had my My song was being

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Speaker 1: played on the They had a show called Prisoners of

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Speaker 1: Rock on w n W, which is a big rock station,

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Speaker 1: work and I got played a couple of times on there.

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Speaker 1: I figured I'm almost the home. I'm almost there, right,

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Speaker 1: So um So, anyway, um this is what year seventy nine.

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Speaker 1: So he goes back to tell my mom about this

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Speaker 1: deal he made, and my mom, who had never cursed

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Speaker 1: in her life until this point, apparently said bullshit. If

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Speaker 1: he lives in by the house, he's got to work

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Speaker 1: or go to school. So now my dad, arguably the

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Speaker 1: greatest negotiator of the twentieth century, had to come back

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Speaker 1: to my room and undo the deally he had just

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Speaker 1: made with his fucked up son, which me so. So

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Speaker 1: he went and made a few phone calls. He called

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Speaker 1: Arthur Lyman and said, Arthur, what should I do? Arthur

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00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,400
Speaker 1: was a famous litigator. He was a guy who actually

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Speaker 1: litigated the case in the Attica Uprising and everything else,

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00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,240
Speaker 1: great civil rights icon as well. And Arthur said, let

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Speaker 1: me call some He called Steve Ross, apparently right because

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Speaker 1: he was Steve's lawyer, and then he, uh somehow or other,

340
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Speaker 1: I ended up having a meeting for those people don't know.

341
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Speaker 1: He ran Warner Communications. Steve Ross at the time, right,

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Speaker 1: he was a legendary figure and he uh so, So

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Speaker 1: Steve arranged for me to go have an interview with

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Speaker 1: a guy named David Horowitz who was the head of

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Speaker 1: the Warner Music Division in those days. Right, this is

346
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,800
Speaker 1: all unbeknownst to you, or he's telling you what he do.

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00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,200
Speaker 1: I knew nothing. So one day I was told to

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Speaker 1: go report to David Horrowitz his office at seventy five

349
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Speaker 1: Rocket Feller Plaza. I didn't know who he was, and

350
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Speaker 1: and I smoked two joints and I walked in, slumped

351
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Speaker 1: down in the chair, and he goes, you're going to

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Speaker 1: work at Atlantic Records. And I was like, huh, all right, now,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting because they sent me to Atlantic Wreckers. It

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Speaker 1: was July thirty first, nineteen seventy nine. They handed me

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Speaker 1: some double sided tape, a staple gun, a bunch of posters,

356
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Speaker 1: Zeppelin posters and other posters, and they sent me out

357
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Speaker 1: to go to the record stores and put up posters

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Speaker 1: in these we were I was I think my title

359
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,840
Speaker 1: was assistant trainee field merchant. Now what's odd is that

360
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Speaker 1: until this time, it had never even occurred to me

361
00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,920
Speaker 1: that that well, that they could be. The record companies

362
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:34,960
Speaker 1: were a thing like. I didn't know where I thought

363
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Speaker 1: records came from. And Atlantic was my favorite label because

364
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Speaker 1: going back in time, here's a crazy story for you.

365
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Speaker 1: When I was fifteen, my dad came home one day

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Speaker 1: with a box of records. I was an avid record collector,

367
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:49,520
Speaker 1: but I probably had a hundred and five records at

368
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Speaker 1: this point, and he came up with a box of

369
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Speaker 1: records from Atlantic. And I found out later that the

370
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Speaker 1: story was that am It had called Im at urn

371
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Speaker 1: Agin right, the legendary founder of Atlantic Records, at least

372
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Speaker 1: for a time, I'm the greatest record man in his time,

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Speaker 1: of all time, and m It had called my dad

374
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Speaker 1: unbeknownst to me, and said, Joe, I have a problem

375
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Speaker 1: and my lawyers can't figure out what to do. I

376
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:10,480
Speaker 1: hear you're the best can you help me? And my

377
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,440
Speaker 1: dad said, I don't take individual cases. I worked from corporations,

378
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,480
Speaker 1: but what's your problem? And apparently I'm had told him

379
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,000
Speaker 1: what the problem was. That my dad told him what

380
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,360
Speaker 1: to tell his lawyers to go do, and he did

381
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,360
Speaker 1: and it worked. So he called my dad and said, Joe,

382
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,200
Speaker 1: I gotta do something for you. Says at to send

383
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Speaker 1: my kids some records. He would have known. They came

384
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Speaker 1: in boxes right right, and that box Bob had goats

385
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,760
Speaker 1: Head Soup, James Gang Bang, ROBERTA Flak killing Me, softly,

386
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,520
Speaker 1: bad company. I think it was straight shooter. I mean

387
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,000
Speaker 1: it was fucking incredible. Quality control in those days was ridiculous.

388
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,080
Speaker 1: It was a few that I didn't want. I think

389
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:43,480
Speaker 1: it was gonna read the Franklin Record and the ire

390
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:45,360
Speaker 1: was like, get the funk out of here, this Atlantic record,

391
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,520
Speaker 1: So that A became debt like etched into my brain

392
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Speaker 1: because I spent so much time watching them goats Head

393
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,440
Speaker 1: Soup how many times? And I lost to that record,

394
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Speaker 1: So that was the only different I used to. I

395
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,880
Speaker 1: had a You remember the sterias that came into They

396
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:00,720
Speaker 1: were like a little suitcase right how the record player

397
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,040
Speaker 1: and the speakers folded it on top, so I had

398
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,159
Speaker 1: a orange for Mica table and I would stick my

399
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,880
Speaker 1: face and straight down on the table and put one

400
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,840
Speaker 1: speaker on each side of my head and play Heartbreaker

401
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,719
Speaker 1: over and over again just to hear the intro, right,

402
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,000
Speaker 1: because it was the most New York City Yeah right,

403
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:18,640
Speaker 1: But what was really it was really about the musical

404
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:24,600
Speaker 1: intro that had a great stone. Sorry, can't you hear

405
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,639
Speaker 1: the music? And Winter? I don't know. So in any event,

406
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,240
Speaker 1: you get this gig, you're not going to school or

407
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:32,960
Speaker 1: my head of the story. No, So I'm one. I

408
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:34,879
Speaker 1: have a year to become a rock star, right, But

409
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:36,640
Speaker 1: now I get this gig at Atlantic, and I forgot

410
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,320
Speaker 1: all about being a rock star. But at the same time,

411
00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,680
Speaker 1: the Verset van Halen record came out, and I'll never

412
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,719
Speaker 1: forget because we had taken some sort of llucinogenic. We

413
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,760
Speaker 1: were at my my friend's house and and um, and

414
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,639
Speaker 1: I was not a big guy. I didn't do a

415
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:52,960
Speaker 1: lot of stuff, so it was really you know, And

416
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,240
Speaker 1: I happened to walk into his room fully out of

417
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,520
Speaker 1: my mind, and he had just dropped the needle on

418
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,480
Speaker 1: the first Van Halen record, heard eruption, and I said,

419
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,119
Speaker 1: fuck it, this is ridiculous. There's no point I might.

420
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,640
Speaker 1: I might as well try to dunk a basketball. It's

421
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:08,919
Speaker 1: not one my three inch vertical jewish leap. It's not

422
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,320
Speaker 1: going to happen. So I said, okay, so it's around.

423
00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,280
Speaker 1: All this was sort of happening concurrently, but nonetheless I

424
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,040
Speaker 1: was still trying. In the beginning, I had to. They

425
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:18,800
Speaker 1: gave me a tiny little office because they just had

426
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 1: an extra one, and I had a little couch and

427
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,919
Speaker 1: I had Around this time, I discovered a CDC. Discovered them.

428
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,120
Speaker 1: I discovered that they existed, right. I found Dirty Deeds

429
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,000
Speaker 1: Do Under Cheap in the hallways, someone's throwing it out,

430
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:29,320
Speaker 1: and I took it home because it looked cool, and

431
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:30,600
Speaker 1: I started listening to it. And then I found out

432
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,520
Speaker 1: that a C d C had like four albums, and

433
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,400
Speaker 1: I was like, holy sh it, this is the greatest thing.

434
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,920
Speaker 1: It was almost as if someone had said it's almost

435
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:38,560
Speaker 1: as if I, like Errol Smith, had been in a

436
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,320
Speaker 1: time capsule, and all of a sudden, I had like

437
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,159
Speaker 1: everything from Dream onto Rocks right, And I was like,

438
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,080
Speaker 1: oh my god. It was a revelation. So I spent

439
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:46,960
Speaker 1: all my time and I had an s g standard,

440
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,040
Speaker 1: just like Congus. And one day I had it in

441
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,040
Speaker 1: the office with me, right because sometimes I have my

442
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 1: guitar in the office, and I don't think I've ever

443
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,120
Speaker 1: sewn this story in public. But so the head of publicity,

444
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:00,880
Speaker 1: who knew how much I of d c DC comes

445
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:02,159
Speaker 1: to me one day and she says her name was

446
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 1: Simo Do and Semo says, Jason a C d C

447
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:05,679
Speaker 1: is gonna be in the building for them. They had

448
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,000
Speaker 1: just started happening at Highway to Hell was their first hit,

449
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,800
Speaker 1: and it had just gone gold apparently, and she says,

450
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:12,399
Speaker 1: they're gonna be here. They're getting the gold album. So

451
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:13,719
Speaker 1: I was like, holy ship, where they gonna be. She goes,

452
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,239
Speaker 1: I think they're going to the thirtieth floor. Now, we

453
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,280
Speaker 1: were on the second floor um Atlantic Records headquarters. So

454
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:20,960
Speaker 1: I said, fucking I'm going up to the thirties floor,

455
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,680
Speaker 1: which was corporate, right. So I up to the thirty

456
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,919
Speaker 1: five hair like I had tons of hair back then, right,

457
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,720
Speaker 1: like tons, And of course they're not letting me in.

458
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:29,760
Speaker 1: So then I decided I'd wait on the second floor

459
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 1: to see if they showed up. And I'm standing there

460
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,320
Speaker 1: in the reception area and they come toodling out of

461
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,480
Speaker 1: the elevator, you know, all of them about five too, right,

462
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,840
Speaker 1: and I am having an out of body experience, right,

463
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,160
Speaker 1: I haven't met rock stars before. So they come walking

464
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,359
Speaker 1: on there. Forgot Phil Rudd, the drummer, had taken They

465
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,600
Speaker 1: apparently give him a cake and it was in a box.

466
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,359
Speaker 1: It was in a long, flat box. I don't know

467
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:52,639
Speaker 1: why he took it. Maybe it's said a C D

468
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,800
Speaker 1: C on who the hell knows. So he comes in

469
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,280
Speaker 1: and he walks and he puts it on their SETFACEA

470
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,440
Speaker 1: he goes our our a pizza delivery, Go, we're gonna

471
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 1: pay for these? I got I'm doing this sounds like

472
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,760
Speaker 1: a Southern ax. I'm trying to do Australian. But anyway,

473
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,840
Speaker 1: so I was like, oh my god, it's the coolest

474
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,480
Speaker 1: things ever happened. And so I see Bond walking and

475
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 1: Bond fucking Scott right, So I follow him and I

476
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,600
Speaker 1: found with the homewa like, go, Bond, I got to

477
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 1: talk to you man, like it's so cool. Like I

478
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,440
Speaker 1: just always wondered, you know, what the what you would

479
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,000
Speaker 1: sound like because the way you sing and the way

480
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 1: you talk, like how do you talk? And he goes, yeah,

481
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:22,760
Speaker 1: well thanks, I'm saying a lot this. You know, He's

482
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 1: holding his nose and he goes, yeah, come to think

483
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,960
Speaker 1: about my He says, I got cocaine. Nos, no cocaine.

484
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,600
Speaker 1: You got any I was like, I was like, no,

485
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,399
Speaker 1: but I got some weed in my office. You know,

486
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,120
Speaker 1: you want to come to my office. He was like, yeah, mate,

487
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 1: you know whatever. So it comes to my office. I've

488
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 1: got my guitar, I've got my fucking demo tape in

489
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 1: the office, which I hand to him, of course, and

490
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 1: I still used to I was still like, it's still

491
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,360
Speaker 1: a little distant dream there. That was my original thought.

492
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:44,440
Speaker 1: When I got to work at Atlantic. I was like,

493
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:45,720
Speaker 1: holy shit, if I get a job doing you or

494
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,080
Speaker 1: I could sign myself. I actually had that thought. So,

495
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,239
Speaker 1: you know, Bond leaves and they go into the conference room,

496
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 1: and I figured I've had my moment. And an hour later,

497
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 1: I'm walking down the hallway and I see Angus Bond

498
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,360
Speaker 1: and Malcolm knock on this door of this guy named

499
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 1: Raphael Santana, who was our dancing music guy. Did none

500
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,359
Speaker 1: of it made any sense to me, but I started

501
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 1: was just staying out of the way at this point,

502
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,640
Speaker 1: and I walked by it here and going there's Jason,

503
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,399
Speaker 1: and there's Jason in there, and I'm like, are you

504
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 1: looking for me? And then Marco that this is a

505
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,200
Speaker 1: gool right here I tell you about gets on his

506
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,359
Speaker 1: office double tape and I was like, then, then, fucking

507
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 1: next thing I know, Angus and Malcolm come tootling down

508
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 1: to my fucking tiny little office when Angus plops himself

509
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 1: down the couch, picks up the guitar and starts playing.

510
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 1: Now I've got a fucking poster of Angus on the wall,

511
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 1: the power Rage poster, and he's sitting in front of

512
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,479
Speaker 1: it playing a fucking s G standard, and you can

513
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,879
Speaker 1: imagine my brain is exploding, right, and I'll never forget.

514
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 1: I said to him. I go, ang It's like, oh,

515
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 1: you know, I was asked a couple of questions and

516
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, you're so fucking cool, You're

517
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 1: so great at guitar, and you're so young, Like when

518
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,199
Speaker 1: did you take it up plane? When you take up

519
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 1: plane seriously? And he goes, I never took it up seriously.

520
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,880
Speaker 1: And I'm like, ship right, right, right right, And that's

521
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 1: in keeping because there's that great quote from Angus. Where's

522
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,199
Speaker 1: but he said what he said, Um, I'm sick and

523
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 1: tired of hearing people telling us that we made eleven

524
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 1: records and they all sound the same. We've actually made twelve.

525
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 1: So anyway, so I said, I figured I might as

526
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,920
Speaker 1: well push my luck, because that's me, as you know.

527
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 1: And so I asked him if he'd give me a

528
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 1: guitar lesson, and he dad. He told me to play

529
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,399
Speaker 1: Kicked in the Teeth. He told me to play you

530
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 1: know that riff and kicks and alright, he did that

531
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 1: riff raff and it was it was crazy, and then

532
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,199
Speaker 1: that became you know, then I was Now I was

533
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,159
Speaker 1: completely obsessed, and I ended up getting my first gold

534
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,120
Speaker 1: record UM for for Highway to Hell, because I designed.

535
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 1: I wandered into the head of advertising office one day.

536
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 1: It was who was like a deity to me. It

537
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 1: was a vice president for advertising. Name was George Salavich.

538
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: I go, George, I got an idea, goes, what kid,

539
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: what do you want to go? We should do an

540
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: ad for Highway to Hell. The Highway to Hell is

541
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 1: paved with gold, and we could have like a gold

542
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,439
Speaker 1: highway in Hell at the end and congratulate a CDC

543
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 1: because Erroosmith had done these ads. You remember that famous

544
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 1: Toys Built a Last ad. Actually I don't, Oh my god,

545
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: it was the coolest thing when I was a kid.

546
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 1: It so Errol Smith had done an ad. They took

547
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 1: an elephant and he's two and his two fronts are

548
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,880
Speaker 1: they called feet elephants? Yeah, they're not paused, his two

549
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,360
Speaker 1: front feet whatever they pads. What we're on. We're balanced

550
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 1: on Tonka trucks. And it just said toys built to last,

551
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 1: Arrowsmith Double Platinum toys in the attic, and I was like,

552
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: that's the And they did a number of these. They

553
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 1: were incredible. They that rocks. One was amazing. It was

554
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 1: a glassful of diamonds and vodka being poured on it.

555
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 1: There was one fordraw the line where it was a

556
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 1: woman was gorgeous. Of course, woman in like a leo.

557
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 1: It's hard with the tights and she was standing on

558
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: a tight rope that she was painting and and bending

559
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 1: over and holding an arrow Smith umbrella and it just

560
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: said Arrowsmith draws the line or whatever like no, I

561
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 1: said no, I said platinum in the line of duty

562
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: a right. So anyway, so so I said, George, we

563
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: gotta do this add so he says, no, we don't

564
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: have money for these type of things, you know. So

565
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: I said ship. But then when it went platinum, he

566
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: calls me in his office and I look and he

567
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: has the mock up from the art department. The highway

568
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: hell is paved with platinum. I have the original mock

569
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: up in my house, signed by all the A C.

570
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: D C guys, and I end up getting a gold

571
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,959
Speaker 1: record for that. So the point being at the end

572
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: of my year, because I was on the year trainee

573
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 1: program and at the end of the year, I had

574
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 1: to go to school, but they asked me to stay

575
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: and so I ended up going to n y U. Uh,

576
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 1: you know, technically full time although I was rarely seen

577
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: on campus and working full time in Atlantic Um. You know,

578
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: I was making four dollars an hour, but I didn't care.

579
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,439
Speaker 1: I thought it was a great at job in the world. Okay,

580
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: couple of things. Was your father this aggressive? Uh? In

581
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: terms of what, well, you see an opportunity and you

582
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: seize it. You gave Bob Scott your demo tape. I

583
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: would be too uptight to do that, I said, Oh,

584
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: people must have been given a demo tape. All the time,

585
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: I gotta be cool. You know, I don't have to

586
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: push it. Where did you learn to push it? I

587
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, look, my dad's the guy who

588
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 1: wrote a letter to Harvard Law School, right. I mean, so,

589
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: you know there's that great saying. I think it's Wayne

590
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: Gretzky that said you missed a hundred percent of the

591
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: shots you don't take, right, And I've always felt that way.

592
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't, uh, I've I've developed this thing

593
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: over the years, you know, the times when I haven't

594
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: done that, and then you sit around kicking yourself for

595
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: somewhere between days and weeks, right, And then I decided,

596
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 1: any time I do that, I'm give myself a non

597
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: moving violation, right. I kind of invented this phrase, I think.

598
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: So I don't want those. I don't want nine moving violations.

599
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 1: I'd rather deal with rejection than regret. So, you know,

600
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: so to me, whether or not it's meeting a girl

601
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: out and about or you know, just and you know

602
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: obviously you can't be too aggressive there, but you know,

603
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: you you know you could still go up and ask

604
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: someone to talk to you. Okay, So when someone rejects

605
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: you or things don't work out. How do you metabolize that?

606
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: Just keep it moving like just okay. So if you failed,

607
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: come right back up to bad. Yeah, what are you

608
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: gonna do if you fail? You fail? I mean you

609
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 1: can't take it personally. And and the and this thing

610
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 1: that people do, this thing is much shorter, though it

611
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 1: doesn't last as long as if you know, you ever

612
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: see those ads or whatever that only the girl. There

613
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: was a girl on the subway on Tuesday. And I mean,

614
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: like you see that. There used to be a thing

615
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,719
Speaker 1: like in the Village Voice. That's ridiculous, by the way.

616
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: You know how I first became aware of you, not

617
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 1: to flip the script or anything, but the first time

618
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 1: I heard about you the left sets letter. So this

619
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: is in probably or so, and the left sets letter

620
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: was like mimiograph or whatever you used to do xerox,

621
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: I don't know what the funk he used to do

622
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: and stapled and sent out and I would see it

623
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 1: on people's desk and I didn't know. I think I

624
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: saw it on Twin Jerram's desk, and he was on

625
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: the Twin Jerram was a legendary um um in a

626
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: lot of ways, but he had been the various times

627
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: that had a promotion ahead of A and R had

628
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 1: a publicity Atlantic Records. Um, just that we could do

629
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 1: a whole podcast about him and his stories. It's sucking incredible.

630
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: And uh, I saw it on his desk and I

631
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 1: picked it up and I started reading it. And you

632
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: had done a whole thing about Tory Amos's lips, right. So,

633
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: and this is when I had signed Tory Amos and um,

634
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 1: the first record had stiffed right was why can't Tory right?

635
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: And the second one was of course little Earthquakes and

636
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: it was just starting to happen, and she had made

637
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: that phenomenal video that that groundbreaking video for Silent all

638
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 1: these years, and Bob had written and talking about you

639
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: in the third person. Bob had uh pretty much a

640
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: diet tribe about the way her lips moved and the thing.

641
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 1: And I was like, this guy's nuts. But I like,

642
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: and I think I might have reached out to you

643
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: back then. So that's the first time I became aware.

644
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 1: But let's go back. So now you're going to n

645
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 1: y U full time and you're working full time. How

646
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: does that play out? So technically I was still a

647
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: part time employee, but I was working like thirty five

648
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: hours a week at four dalls. Now I think I

649
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: might have gotten raised a four fifty by now. And

650
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: there was a whole controversy about that. I mean it

651
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: was like I had to get to tell the story

652
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: how you're putting up posters and they think you're a spy.

653
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 1: Oh well no, that was when I first came in there,

654
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 1: so they have signed me. There was a guy named

655
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: Philip van Pool who was the field merchandiser and I

656
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: was assigned as a trainee to him. Now, all he

657
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: knew and he was a kid from the streets whatever

658
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: and and from Baltimore I think, And all he knew

659
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,360
Speaker 1: was that corporate had said you're to take this kid

660
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: around and whatever you're doing stopped doing it right, Like,

661
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: whatever it is, don't do it around this kid. I

662
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: don't know why that. No, no, that corporate had sent

663
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: me to him. His immediate bosses were the two heads

664
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: of sales, sal You Toronto and Nick Maria, who were

665
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: Carrot of the eighth order. Right, the names are perfect,

666
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: like if you had to cast these guys as themselves,

667
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: you'd name them that. So anyway, so um so, yeah,

668
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 1: they had told him clean up your fucking act whatever

669
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: you're doing. So he took me the first day to

670
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: fourteen record stars. I remember it was July thirty one,

671
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine. We are trapesing all over Manhattan, carrying

672
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 1: these rolls of posters and staple ones and double side

673
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: of tape and all this ship and climbing around on ladders,

674
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: and I remember at one point, I know, I said, hey,

675
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: do you want to stop? And Smoking's like, no, man,

676
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: I can't do that. You know, We're we got too

677
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: much work. And I was like, can we stopping at lunch?

678
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: He was like, we got ten minutes, man, let's get

679
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: some pizza. I was like, pizza, it's a hundred degrees like.

680
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: But that was my first day and I went home

681
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: and I was like, wow, this is unbelievable, Like I

682
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: don't know how I'm gonna make this work. And then

683
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: the next day I came in with a case of

684
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: like that, you know, a few joints whatever, and I

685
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: was like, come on, let's go smoke. And I don't

686
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: think we ever did more than three displays in the

687
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: day after that. It was it was ridiculous. We became friends. Okay,

688
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: so now you're going to school and you're working in Atlantic,

689
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: what's the next move? So then I decided, you know,

690
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: I found out that of these guys, at various times,

691
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: I was delivering the mail or doing other things, and

692
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,719
Speaker 1: I started to see these A and R guys right

693
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: to deliver the mail to the office, and none of

694
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: them looked particularly adept to me. Um, and they weren't

695
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: actually you know, Atlantic, I think Ahmed had signed all

696
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: the hits or whatever it was, or Phil Carson or somebody,

697
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, so I was like, fuck, you know,

698
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: it seems to me that I'm if I could be

699
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: half good at this, I'd be three quarters better than

700
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: the rest of these guys. You know, that was actually

701
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: my calculus. So I decided I need to get a

702
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: job doing an R. Well, that was tricky. So what

703
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: happened was sort of a miracle of the zebras did

704
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: everythode of the Zebra story. So Zebra was So here's

705
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: how I found my way into the A and R department.

706
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: And I think, for for people who may be listening

707
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: that want to make it in the music business, we're

708
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: starting to make the music because this story is probably

709
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: gonna be helpful. So I decided that I would study

710
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: because rock was my ship, right, And there was a

711
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: magazine back then, which you'll remember called Album Network. Of course,

712
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: an album Network was the bible of rock radio. And

713
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: on the cover they would print that here's the four

714
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: biggest gainers, here's the four top new releases years to four,

715
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: whatever the funk it was. There were sixteen albums on

716
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: the cover, and then inside there would be comments from

717
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: all different programmers and different things that were going on

718
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: and whatever the well was. And in the back of

719
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: the magazine they printed the playlist of all hundred and

720
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: ninety rock stations in the country at the time. That's

721
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: how many of there were. And they were very small,

722
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: but my eyes were and it was really small, and

723
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: plus I was smoking, we know, would just sit there

724
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: and stare at these things. And I said, you know

725
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: what if one if I can find and they would

726
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: have the name of the radio station, the phone number,

727
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: the name of the program director of music. Right, I said,

728
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: if I can find one of these stations is playing

729
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: an act it's not already signed, maybe that could be

730
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: a break for me. You know. So that's interesting. You

731
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: came up with that by yourself, Yeah, because that was

732
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: Doug Morris this big thing to do research, etcetera. Ultimately, yeah,

733
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: but he didn't even know me at that time. Like,

734
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: you know, it's just funny. There's a parallel there. Okay,

735
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: so you're looking for an unsigned act in the back

736
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: of album network, right, And then I would call the

737
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: radio station and pretend that I was somebody who's called

738
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: they should take even though I was from Atlantic Racers.

739
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: I wasn't going to tell him mom the fucking I

740
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: didn't even have an office anymore. I had like a

741
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,479
Speaker 1: desk in whatever. And you know, half the time they

742
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: wouldn't take my call. On another half of the time

743
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: they would say, oh that Sacks already signed r C A.

744
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: Would you know who are? You would waste my time?

745
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: And I would be that So, as fate would have it,

746
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: W B A B In Long Island was playing an

747
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: act called The Lines. So I called up and I

748
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: got the program director, Bob Buckman, who's still in the business,

749
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: on the phone, and I said, Bob, what's with the Lines?

750
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: He says, that's nothing. I put it on as a

751
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: favorite to somebody. It's really nothing you need to be

752
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: concerned with. So you hadn't even heard it. No, there

753
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: was no way to hear it back then. So I said, well,

754
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: and again, in an act of exactly what you were

755
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: talking about a few minutes ago, I said to him, well,

756
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: if you were me, who would you sign? Now, this

757
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: was a ridiculous thing to say. I sign my fucking

758
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: name half the time, right because I was too blitzed.

759
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: So he says, he says, let me tell you about Zebra.

760
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: I go, what Zebra? He goes, it's the most requested

761
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: band at the radio station. I said, oh, you mean

762
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: the most requested local band. He goes, genius. Hold on

763
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: a second. I thought that was funny because my dad

764
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: used to call me janius ironically since he actually was one.

765
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: But anyway, so um, So he goes and gets the

766
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: log because I used to actually track the request because

767
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: kids would all the radio stations back there didn't have

768
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: a lot of other ways of hearing their favorite song,

769
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: especially if it wasn't out, but they would call on

770
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: request everything. And so he comes back and he says,

771
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: in the last quarter of the year, six percent of

772
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: all the requests we came in were for zero. Number

773
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: two was number two, Three and four I remember were

774
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: some combination of AZZI, A C, D c and led Zeppelin,

775
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: I don't know in which order. And I said, holy

776
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: sh it, how do I get ahold of this? And

777
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: he goes, hold on, I'll call the guys on the

778
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: other phone. So there's no conference calling back then either,

779
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: So he calls them. They lived in New Orleans and

780
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: the singer's name was Randy Jackson, not the Randy Jackson

781
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: that you know from TV or Journey or whatever. So

782
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: he calls Randy. Now, these guys have been playing clubs

783
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: for nine years, and they had given up on getting

784
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: a record deal. But now they would play in New

785
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: York in the summer because it was too hot in

786
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: New Orleans, and then they would go back to New

787
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: Orleans in the winter and they and they were one

788
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: of the big band in both markets. They sounded a

789
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: lot like led Zeppelin. And so the next day I

790
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: get to my desk and there's a FedEx package on

791
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: my desk. Now FedEx was relatively do but so I

792
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: was very excited. It was glowing and I think it

793
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: had an album in it. But I nowhere to play

794
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: an album. So I went to one of the A

795
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: R guys office as a guy name was a Zis

796
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,479
Speaker 1: cox Sell. He was on. It's nephew, and he's one

797
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: of the guys whose job I wanted. So anyway, I

798
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: said to him, you were about to hear the next

799
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: big thing, and he says, really, did you listen to it?

800
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: How's this? I said, no, no no, I'm just telling you right,

801
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: And so he puts the record on. I can't even

802
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: hear because I'm too excited, And at the end of it,

803
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: he says, this is no good. It's no It's gave

804
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: me five reasons why it was no good. So I

805
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: go back to my desk and I'm calling Randy to

806
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: tell him it's no good. And I'm halfway through dialing

807
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: and I said to the assistant secretary whatever. He was

808
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: sitting in front of me, Mary was her name. Eric

809
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: Conroy said, Mary, how does this make any sense? I'm

810
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: calling this guy to tell him his ship is no good. Meanwhile,

811
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: he's the number one guy on the radio stage, number

812
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: one band a race, and it's selling out all these

813
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: what he goes doesn't make his sense to me either,

814
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: So I call him. Obviously, Randy, listen, this guy said

815
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: no good for all these different reasons. But I'm gonna

816
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: give it to Doug Morris and see what he says.

817
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: So Doug was the President Atlantic at the time. So

818
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: I made a cassette of it. I wrapped it up

819
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: in a piece of paper and put a rubber band,

820
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: and I went to Doug's assistance, you know, desk, and

821
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: I put it on top of this other wall, all

822
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: of cassettes that he was never gonna listen to that

823
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: other people were hoping he would listen to. And as again, destiny, fate, serendipity,

824
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, kis met synchronicity. He

825
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: happens to pull a few of these things off her

826
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: desk to take on his drive home to Long Island,

827
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 1: where he lived, and he's listening to Zebra in the car.

828
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: Who's behind the Door was a song. He decides he

829
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 1: doesn't like it, and he pops it out of the

830
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 1: take deck and it's playing on the fucking radio. Because

831
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: he lived in Long Island and everybody lived a long

832
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: and listen to W B A B. So the thing

833
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: He's like, what the so? So the DJ at the

834
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: end of the song says, that's the most requested song

835
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: in the history of W B a B. Zebra Who's

836
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: behind the Door? Now the perfect guy to hear that

837
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 1: was Doug Morris. Because Doug is the guy who taught

838
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: every one of the music business how to do research.

839
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: So he built a huge one of the most important

840
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: careers in the history music on research, largely, I mean

841
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: so and other things. So he comes in the next day.

842
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: They were allowing me by now to sit in the

843
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: A and R meetings. And because I would do research,

844
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 1: somebody would say, I like this spanned from Iowa called

845
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: Mackinaw and I'd say, they said, Jason called some of

846
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: the stores, there are the clubs, and find anybody likes

847
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 1: this group. So we're sitting in this meeting and somebody's

848
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: talking about something and Doug goes, wait a minute, what's zebra?

849
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: And I'm sitting there, you know, having like I don't.

850
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: I'm I'm stunned. And he goes, this is genius and

851
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: I was like huh. And he goes, fly these kids

852
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: up here on a meeting. So that's how it all started,

853
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 1: and it was a crazy process from there too. But

854
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: the great thing was that the man had built up

855
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: so much that when the record came out, it was

856
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 1: like it was literally midnight. Man. His kids all cut school,

857
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: they came records came out on Mondays in those days,

858
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: and the kids all cut school and we went to

859
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: the store and they were pulling them out of the

860
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: boxes before the guy could even stamp the price on them.

861
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: And they were buying two or three copies at once,

862
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: and it became a big out of the box smash

863
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: in these two markets. And and and all of a sudden,

864
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: they were like, Hey, this kid must know what he's doing.

865
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: Let's give them a job doing and R and I

866
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: was like, thank you. And that's how it started. Okay,

867
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 1: how long after you started Atlantic did that transition take place.

868
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: It's only a couple of years. I was in college. Okay,

869
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: so how long did you go to college? For? Two years?

870
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: In change? And how did college end? My dad said

871
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,439
Speaker 1: to me, you're better I had two records on the charts,

872
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: and he said, you're better off doing one thing right

873
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 1: than two things wrong. And I was like, thanks dad,

874
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: I'm out of here. And by the way, here's a

875
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: platinum twisted sister record. I actually gave him the platinum

876
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: that was that was the first platinum than a C

877
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: D C, which I you know, it was a totally

878
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 1: different thing because it was for an ad I designed,

879
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 1: but um, I gave him the first platinum Twisted Sister,

880
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: which would stay Hungry, on the condition that he hanged

881
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: in his office and hung in his office for his

882
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: entire life. Really, and what was the other record that

883
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: was successful? Zebra was the first one, but you said

884
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: there were two projects? Was one of them Zebra? How

885
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: far did Zebra go? That went gold? And then my friend?

886
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: Then the second record? Unfortunately Jack Douglas was the producer,

887
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 1: and Jack was a mess, and he he was really

888
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 1: losing it. John Lennon had been his best friend and

889
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: John had been killed and he was going through a

890
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 1: terrible period and he really it was. And by the way,

891
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: making the Zebra record was an insane, insane experience too,

892
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 1: because Jack was all ready in this you know state,

893
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: and now I had gone. You know what happened was

894
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: you hired Jack because he did all the legendary Aerosmith records.

895
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 1: So yeah, what happened was Doug had gotten cold feet

896
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: at a certain point and I would come home at

897
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: night and say, Dad, I don't understand what do I do?

898
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: How do I go back to this? And to give

899
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: me advice how to approach him every day and say

900
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: something different but finally I decided, I gotta get this

901
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: off the dime. So I went and I gotta called

902
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 1: Jack Douglas. He just won the Grammy for Double Fantasie.

903
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 1: I figured, if I can get the biggest producer in

904
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 1: the world to agree to do this, then maybe I

905
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: can get this group to finally get signed. And I

906
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 1: got him. I convinced his manager to get him to

907
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: come to a show with me. I remember, I rented

908
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: like a tiny little car. Was the only thing I

909
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: could get, like a hand done. I drove him to

910
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 1: Long Island and he agreed to produce the record. I

911
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 1: wanted him because you're right, because he had done the

912
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: greatest Aero sprint albums and the band loved the John

913
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: Lennon album, so it was perfect. Well, we didn't realize

914
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: is that Jack was now like three sheets to the wind.

915
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: He was he was just so devastated and twisted up

916
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 1: by by the horrible, untimely death of his best friend

917
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 1: and hero, John Lennon. And you know, he would book

918
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: a session for Tuesday and show up on Thursday and

919
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: not call anyone, and the band would sleep in the

920
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 1: studio and meanwhile it was record planned and we were

921
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: just getting built and building build, and the prices are

922
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: going up and up and up, and I'll never forget.

923
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 1: One day, Doug comes to my office. Now, the budget

924
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: for the albums a hundred and thirty thousand, which back

925
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: then was a lot, right because Jack was getting fifty

926
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: five thousand, so it sounds like nothing. These people get

927
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: fifty track right right back then it was a lot.

928
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: So Doug comes to my office one day, slams the

929
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: door shut and starts banging his fists on the table.

930
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: And Doug's an intimidating guy. You know they've given me

931
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: an office by now, um I remember my first whatever,

932
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: tiny office. And he's like, what the fund is going

933
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: on with this thing? The records over budget already, there's

934
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: not even any tracks. What he's screaming, and he know

935
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: his neck with the bald ducks, muscles are budging out

936
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:43,879
Speaker 1: of his neck and stuff. And I'm sitting He goes,

937
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: you call this Jack Douglas, motherfucker, and you tell him

938
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: get his ship together right fucking now. And he leaves

939
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: my office and I'm sitting there, going, Okay, let's process this.

940
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: I just got out of high school. I'm gonna call

941
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: it Jack Douglas and go listen, Jack, you know what

942
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: you're dealing with your like, he says, And I remember

943
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: that the unbelievable story. So finally the records that were

944
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: almost two hundred and thirty thousand dollars spent and they're mixing,

945
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: and I was at the record plan on the tenth

946
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: floor and we're in the studio and Jack was hearing

947
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: noises that didn't exist right. So he had three track

948
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: boards strunk strunk together. There were there were shrimp talking

949
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 1: and and and whales barking and things in the tracks

950
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: that you know, no one could hear except him. But

951
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: we had all these things funking. And in those days

952
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: there was no automation. So everyone's got their hands on

953
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 1: the boards and I don't know what I'm doing, but

954
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: everyone's doing something. And the manager of the record Plank

955
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,240
Speaker 1: I me. Mitch comes in the studio and says Jack.

956
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: It was ten to four on a Tuesday, and he goes, Jack,

957
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: you're done. I've had it with your bullshit. You're out

958
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: of here. The fucking Record Atlantic pulled the plug, the

959
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: records canceled, get the funk out of my studio. Because

960
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: he'd had it right and so, and I'm sitting here

961
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: watching this hero of mine being screamed at by the

962
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: genleman of the record plan. And I'm also watching my

963
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: career go up and smoke right because Atlantics pulling the

964
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 1: plug on the only record I'm ever going to sign.

965
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: And so Jack goes, give me ten more minutes to

966
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 1: finish the album. I need ten fucking minutes. And I'm like,

967
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: you imagine, like in a fig POC match, right, My

968
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: head's going back, and what am I supposed to do?

969
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: So the guy says, You've got ten minutes to finish

970
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 1: this album. Obviously ridiculous, And so they barricaded the door,

971
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: like Jack literally barricaded the door. There were two doors

972
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: to the studio, but there was a step that you

973
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: would walk in and you'd go up a step, and

974
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 1: people who were in the studio back then, I'll remember,

975
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: and this is a legendary studio too. This is where

976
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: Stephen wrote the lyrics to some of the aerospace songs

977
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: on the walls. So we barricaded the studio with an

978
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 1: eight track machine or wherever it was a multi track

979
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: machine that door, and then there were was a ROADI

980
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: or two roadies holding the other door. Shut, and that's

981
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 1: how we finished the record. I mean it went on

982
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 1: like that all day, with banging on the door, and

983
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: but the record came out and nothing really happened. No,

984
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: it exploded because all the kids have been waiting for

985
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: the record to be released, so it exploded out of

986
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: the gate. It was number one selling record and in

987
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: like record town and all these different stores, and then

988
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: everyone's running around the hallways thinking I know what the

989
00:40:52,760 --> 00:41:00,479
Speaker 1: funk I'm doing. It was awesome. Hi, everyone ob left

990
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: sex here. I just wanted to take a moment and

991
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: thank you for listening to my podcast. I'm humbled by

992
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: the initial response of the podcast, and I've been able

993
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: to line up some excellent guests in future episodes. I

994
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: can't wait to share those and hear the podcast evolved.

995
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: I think you're in for a treat, so be sure

996
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 1: to subscribe, leave reviews. Tell your Friend's gonna be a

997
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: big year. Now more with Jason Flong. So tell the

998
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: Twisted Sister Story. So Twisted Sisters story, which has been, uh,

999
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: you know, a subject of some um you know debate

1000
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: in your and your letter. Phil Carson has a different view.

1001
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: I've heard of your viewpoint, but I thought you. You know,

1002
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: it's just tell the story through your eyes. The only

1003
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: thing we're arguing about his semantics. What happened is not

1004
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,919
Speaker 1: in dispute right. What happened was Randy from Zebra says

1005
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: to be one day Flom Twisted Sister is the greatest

1006
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: live band in the world. He goes, we can't touch him,

1007
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: and neither can anyone else. And I was like, I

1008
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:54,800
Speaker 1: gotta go see this now. I had bought one of

1009
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 1: their records when I was in high school, a disco

1010
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 1: bad I bought. I think it was shoot him down

1011
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: or I'll never go up now. And so I knew

1012
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: about the band, but it didn't occur to me as

1013
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: something that, you know, whatever. So Wednesday night nid Hudson

1014
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,919
Speaker 1: Civic Center in Poughkeepsie, two hours north of New York City,

1015
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 1: Twist the Sister's headlining and opening a Zebra and d

1016
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: C Star. I thought it was odds, but has a

1017
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: record deal with Sister, doesn't three thousand kids on a

1018
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: Wednesday night at six bucks Ahead, I go up there.

1019
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 1: That allowed me to stand on the stage. D comes out,

1020
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: the band come did plighted applause for d C Star

1021
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: and Zebra, and then they come out, and the places

1022
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: on fire, right, and and the kids are roaring, and

1023
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: d comes out and he goes, all right, New York

1024
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: fucking city or Pokeepsie ever he says. He goes, we

1025
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 1: just got back from fucking England. We're sick and fucking tired.

1026
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: Here in those line me, motherfucker's telling us how bloody

1027
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: good we are. He goes, what do you New York

1028
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: motherfuckers have to say? And three thousand kids I swear

1029
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 1: about throw their fists in the air and go twisted,

1030
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: fucking sister. And I was like, I'm done right, right,

1031
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: I don't care who cares what they do after that

1032
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, because Doug had now taught me right. Doug

1033
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: had taught me that your opinion is secondary to the

1034
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 1: public opinion, right, which he taught half of the music business.

1035
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: And Monty of course became Monte Davery became the greatest.

1036
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: They took his advice and turned it into the number

1037
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 1: one label in the world. So they they performed. It

1038
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: was phenomenal because they had done thousands of shows by

1039
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: now they were great. And I got back to the city.

1040
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 1: Every rode back with JJ. I got back to the city.

1041
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: I think I got two hours of sleep, and I

1042
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: walked into the Doug's office in the morning on two

1043
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 1: hours of sleep and three kinds of God knows what,

1044
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: and I said to him, I found religion last night.

1045
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: And he goes, what the are you talking about? You

1046
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: know how there's that dichotomy when somebody's wide away your

1047
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: half asleep. I go, Twisted Sister, He just get the

1048
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: funk out of my office and by the way go home.

1049
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: He looked like shit, and I was like, Huh, that

1050
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: didn't go the way I planned, you know. So I

1051
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: kept coming back to him, uh, every day with another story.

1052
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: But I didn't realize that Twisted Sister was considered a

1053
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: joke by the entire music industry at this point, which

1054
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: would made no sense to me. The next night, I

1055
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: went to South Jersey to see him, which is to

1056
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 1: give people who don't know the area an idea. Two

1057
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: hundred and something miles away and there were thirty seven

1058
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: hundred kids at the Fountain Casino and I was like,

1059
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: this comes with instructions, right, So I said, but I

1060
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: would go back to him every day, and every day

1061
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: he'd thrown me out of his office, and it finally,

1062
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: um it finally hit a low point um when and

1063
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: this and the record was selling like crazy. They did

1064
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: independent record on secret records, and at one point w

1065
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: p LJ in New York City started playing it. And

1066
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: I remember going to Dave Glue, who was the general

1067
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: manager of I would go everybody for advice. I couldn't

1068
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: figure it out why everybody hated them so much. And

1069
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: then Christmas one particular year, we have a meeting of

1070
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: the in our department. Now, this was the worst year

1071
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 1: Atlantic had had in a long time, which had followed

1072
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: the best year right the previous year they had five

1073
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: the top ten records. They had Genesis and Stevie Nicks

1074
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: and Foreigner and the Rolling Stones and Yes, and this

1075
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: year none of the big axe made records and we

1076
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: didn't break anything, and it was a disaster. So Doug

1077
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: gave us a raw Ross. Speci was greated to ship

1078
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: and he says, everybody together though in our department, we're

1079
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: going to sink or swim or a team or this

1080
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 1: without whatever. He says. But Jason, if I ever hear

1081
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,720
Speaker 1: the name Twisted Sister again, you will never work another

1082
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: day at this record company. And I was like, hmm,

1083
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 1: that was pretty straightforward. Um, So I didn't know what

1084
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 1: to do next. But shortly thereafter I saw a guy

1085
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: named Phil Carson in the hallway. Now he didn't know me,

1086
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 1: but I knew he was because he was a legend already.

1087
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,720
Speaker 1: He was a generation ahead of me. He had signed

1088
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 1: from what I understood, a C D C. I think,

1089
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 1: maybe yes, Um, I mean like crazy shit, you know,

1090
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: like some off the way, And I knew he was

1091
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: ahead of the English company. So I went up to

1092
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: Mr Carson, I handed him to Cassette. I handed him

1093
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 1: a whole sheets and sheets of information about the sales

1094
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: and the tickets and the things and the whatever and

1095
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: the sucking. And then, um, I don't know how long ago,

1096
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,760
Speaker 1: maybe a month later, he calls me up one morning

1097
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: from England and he says, I saw a twisted sister

1098
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: last night. They're the best thing I've seen since a

1099
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 1: C D. And I'm gonna sign him. And I said,

1100
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do about America? And he says,

1101
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: don't worry, I'll get some to put it out now.

1102
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: I find out later that he apparently took the whole

1103
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 1: thing that I had painstakingly put together and given to

1104
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: him and through in the garbage because he didn't know

1105
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: who I was. But then it was a coincidence, another

1106
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: great coincidence, because my life is synchronicity and coincidence and serendipity.

1107
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: And they happened to be opening the show that he

1108
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: was at. May have been foreign or I don't know who,

1109
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: and he saw them as a result of that, and

1110
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 1: he saw the vision. And then two Doug's everlasting credit.

1111
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: You know, the first record came out. It's called you

1112
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: Can't Stop Rock and Roll and it sold a hundred

1113
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: thousand copies in America. Now you can imagine it came out.

1114
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: Could you make a lower priority than the right? He

1115
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 1: had to put it out as a favor to fill,

1116
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: but I still wasn't allowed to mention it. But I

1117
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 1: was calling all the local reps and everybody else, and

1118
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 1: which I also wasn't allowed to do. I'll get in

1119
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: trouble at least once a week for that and uh.

1120
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: And the record sold a hundred thousand on fumes. And

1121
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: then when day Doug calls me his off and he says,

1122
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: you were right, and we're going to make a big

1123
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: thing out of this band. And then Doug had the

1124
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: vision to hire Tom Wormon to get Marty calling there

1125
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: to direct those what became some of the most dilegendary

1126
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 1: videos of all time. Yeah, the first ones I think

1127
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 1: that had um, you know, had talking, you know, I

1128
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: had like movies Janor Meyer and all that thing, and

1129
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 1: you know, what do you want to do with your life?

1130
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,800
Speaker 1: So dog really masterminded. And that album sold six million copies,

1131
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: so you know, so anyway it's been you know, it

1132
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 1: was an amazing thing to be a part of. UM.

1133
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 1: And uh, unfortunately they crashed and burned on the next record.

1134
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: They didn't want to use Tom Worman again, which I

1135
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: never understood. As little as I did understand back then,

1136
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: it didn't make sense to me that you wouldn't dance

1137
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: with who brought you to the dance. Um, But it

1138
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: went horribly wrong, and um, the next album didn't sell anything,

1139
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 1: and ultimately they broke up. So, okay, what were some

1140
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,839
Speaker 1: of your successes and failures after that? Well, so then

1141
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 1: came a girl named Fiona. She just not called talk

1142
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 1: to me. There was a half a hit, so all

1143
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I was basically three for three. But

1144
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 1: then I started getting messed up. You know, Um, this

1145
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: was a time of great excess in the music industry

1146
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: and it caught up to me and I ended up

1147
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: going to rehab. Doug. Doug pretty much forced me to

1148
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: go to rehab, which again I mean, I owe my

1149
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 1: life as a result because I don't think i'd be here,

1150
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 1: and um, you know, I went not knowing what the

1151
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: fact we have wasn't a big thing back. I remember

1152
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 1: telling my mom was going to rehab, and she was

1153
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: wondering if I was gonna come out like with wearing

1154
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: a smock and a banging and tambourine at the port authority,

1155
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like she was like with

1156
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: sandals on a one piece of hair eaging off the

1157
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: back of my head, you know. So it was not

1158
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: part of the vernacular, you know, or the culture. But

1159
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: I went and I came out and I was a

1160
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:29,879
Speaker 1: little woozy. But all of a sudden, like White Line

1161
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 1: had made an album while I was in the studio

1162
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: and it came out doing nothing, and then one radio

1163
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 1: station broke that album, a station called k j j

1164
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: O in Minneapolis started playing it and exploded off that

1165
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: station that I signed skid Row an escape club around

1166
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: that time, and Tori Amos of course, which was you know,

1167
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: looking back, one of my proudest signings and also one

1168
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 1: that's had a lot of meaning in my life in

1169
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 1: a lot of very odd and interesting ways. And then

1170
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 1: eventually they made me the head of the n ART

1171
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 1: Department and around Okay, did you have any failures? Of course,

1172
00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: I don't remember all of them, a lot of them.

1173
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: I mean, everybody does. Nobody got nobody bouts four hundred.

1174
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: Um so it's like baseball if you about in the

1175
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame and nobody remembers the misses as long

1176
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: as you have big hits. So um so they made

1177
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: me the head of the n R Department, and then

1178
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: we went on this crazy role. Um. A guy named

1179
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: Tom Caroline who was in the Ark I brought me

1180
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: Stone Tumble Pilots and I jumped on a plane right away. Um.

1181
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 1: This is when Danny Goldberg could first come in, and

1182
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 1: we roped him in because he had the old cred.

1183
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 1: You know. Um, I'm not sure you know how he

1184
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: really felt about the music, but he went and sold

1185
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 1: it real good. And um so we signed Stone Tumble

1186
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,760
Speaker 1: of Pilots. And around that time was Hoodie and the Blowfish,

1187
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: and I remember going to see Jewel when she was

1188
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:39,879
Speaker 1: had like five people in a coffee shop in San

1189
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: Diego and with a cappuccino machine. And I went back

1190
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: two months later and there were three hundred people there

1191
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 1: and silent, you know, just staring at her like she

1192
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: was a you know, a combination of a ghost and

1193
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: a god. I mean it was it was beautiful. Um.

1194
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: And so we had this this amazing string of successes. Um.

1195
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 1: I'm leaving some out. But and and it's worth noting

1196
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: that I'd signed Sabotage actually before I went to rehab,

1197
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: because we know how that ended up. But they end

1198
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: up with tuxedos playing Christmas music and calling himself Trans

1199
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 1: Siberian Orchestra. But that's a different story. But okay, so

1200
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: he tell us how it evolves into Lava. So what

1201
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 1: happened was I believe that they Um, the perception was

1202
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: that music was changing. And this you'll remember this, this Caroline,

1203
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: the sound was like all the rage all aside. Everybody

1204
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:29,720
Speaker 1: wanted to sign Super Chunk and all these type of bands,

1205
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 1: right and uh, and so they hired a guy named

1206
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 1: Jay Farris, who was in from that scene. You had

1207
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: a company called Mammoth Records. I didn't I didn't know

1208
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: why would they would do that, but they did. And

1209
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: then they decided to move me aside and let him

1210
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: run the an our apartment. So they gave me the

1211
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 1: opportunity to restart at CO Records. And I didn't want

1212
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 1: to do that. It sounded I said to Doug, it

1213
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: sounds old to me. You know, can I can I

1214
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: name the thing myself? You said sure. So I came

1215
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,360
Speaker 1: up with the name lava because it's hot. Also I

1216
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: was thinking about, you know, great forces of nature, like

1217
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: the Atlantic, and of course lava is hot and it

1218
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: flows and it destroys everything that's path and it sounds

1219
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: like love. And you wanted a short name back then

1220
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: because c ds were coming in and you know, you

1221
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: couldn't see a long name. So so I started Lava.

1222
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: And I think they said, okay, but they gave you

1223
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: a good deal or that, you know, they gave me

1224
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: a terrible deal. And they gave me They sent me

1225
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: up to fail. I mean they I didn't know it

1226
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 1: at the time, but they gave me three ability to

1227
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: hire three people, very small budget, no acts and um

1228
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 1: and I had no idea what the funk I was doing.

1229
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 1: I don't know how to start a business. So I

1230
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: think that's nineties five or six. And uh, I wouldn't

1231
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: asked for advice from anybody I could think of, um

1232
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: who had had this experience. UM and uh. You know

1233
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 1: there's that great saying fake until you make it right.

1234
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 1: And so I hired a women and Valerie DeLong. She

1235
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 1: was like my right hand and we um we started

1236
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 1: off and we started off good. I mean one of

1237
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 1: the first acts I signed was that when McCain it

1238
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 1: was brought to me by Kim Stevens UM who was

1239
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 1: a promotion guy at at Atlantic who had an air

1240
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: for talent. He had brought me Collective Soul earlier. He

1241
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 1: had also brought in seven Mary three, which I didn't

1242
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 1: sign because I couldn't stand them. But they had to

1243
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 1: hit anyway, um ironically on Mammoth and uh. And then

1244
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: Jill Sabiel had a half a hit, and Sieve had

1245
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 1: a half a hit, and Biff Naked had a half

1246
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: a hit, and then things got hot. Then Sugar Ray

1247
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 1: came along right and had fly and that exploded. And

1248
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 1: then then I then the same guy, Kim Stevens brought

1249
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: me Matchbox twenty which was called tap at the Secret

1250
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,959
Speaker 1: back then, and I remember, because this is the lesson

1251
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 1: in this too. He sent me four songs. I listened

1252
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: to my call and I was like, I'm not sure.

1253
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: He goes listen at three am again. I listened at

1254
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: three am again. It was the only one on that

1255
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: four song and became a hit. Said let's go see

1256
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: these guys. I went out. I think we went to

1257
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,919
Speaker 1: Tallahassee or somewhere, and it was not what you see today,

1258
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 1: trust me. I mean they were not. I don't even

1259
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 1: think they were in tune. They had two different guitar players.

1260
00:52:57,880 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 1: Back then, nobody was paying attention to them. There wasn't

1261
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: in a stage. But I was like, there's something special

1262
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 1: about this guy was Rob Thomas guy. So we signed them,

1263
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 1: and of course we know what happened next. And it's funny.

1264
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: I remember even on the first record, because I always

1265
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: have like the last minute. I'm always wondering if we

1266
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: picked the right first single. I remember sitting in my

1267
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: office with Rob going back and forth where it was

1268
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: Real World or Long Day for the first single. But

1269
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: then you know in this magic and all this these lessons.

1270
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: Right after Long Day was a big hit at rock radio,

1271
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: sold whatever, maybe a hundred thousand records, and then a

1272
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 1: radio station down south who liked them a lot in

1273
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,359
Speaker 1: Birmingham actually started playing Push. So I called the record

1274
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 1: stores and it was blowing the doors off, and the

1275
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: guy from the station told us that was the only

1276
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 1: thing that he was getting a request for any one

1277
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 1: cared about real world or any of the songs. So

1278
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 1: I went to the band manager, I said, this is

1279
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 1: the next single. They're like, oh no, and I was

1280
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 1: like no, that Doug Morris thing was in my head right,

1281
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 1: So obviously that became their career song. And then he's

1282
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: had so many other amazing songs since then. And then

1283
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: a guy named Andy carp Young and our guy who

1284
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: work for me brought me kid Rock and uh and

1285
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,359
Speaker 1: that was in some ways the most fun kid Rock

1286
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: had made records. And was you know, he'd been around

1287
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: the mill already. So kid rock Um had had three albums,

1288
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 1: all stiffs. The first he had signed he was signed

1289
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 1: to Jive when he was seventeen. His first single was

1290
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,359
Speaker 1: a song about eating pussy called Yodeling in the Valley,

1291
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: and do you remember that it's really funny yodeling in

1292
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,280
Speaker 1: the valley, Yeah, Yeah, Yodling in the Valley, A Delicious

1293
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: Break from Potatoes and anyway, so um that had made

1294
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 1: a tiny ripple, and then he had two albums on

1295
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 1: a on a company I think it was called Continuum,

1296
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,919
Speaker 1: and they went bankrupt. One was the poly Fuse Method

1297
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: or whatever, so he was damaged goods. But Andy comes

1298
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: to see me. Kid Rocks manager had given him a CD.

1299
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 1: I think it's out by Southwest, he says, I think

1300
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 1: that's something here. I go, all right, so go see him.

1301
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: So he goes to Cleveland to go see him. He

1302
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: comes back. I said, how's the show? He goes, I

1303
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: don't know. He goes, you know, there's only forty people there,

1304
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: but he comes out of a coffin to start the

1305
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: show and there's a little person on stage cursing and rapping,

1306
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:51,399
Speaker 1: and I was like, I think I better go see

1307
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: this for myself. So I went to I went to

1308
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 1: Detroit and saw him at the State Theater and it

1309
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 1: was it was awesome. But then we had a meeting.

1310
00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: He told me to meet him in the basement of

1311
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 1: some disco club whatever to thirty in the morning. So

1312
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 1: I did, and it was quite a strange scene. And

1313
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: I said to him, what do you want to do.

1314
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 1: Are you a rap or you a rock? What do you?

1315
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: What's your thing? And he was like, don't worry, I'll

1316
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: make some songs and i'll show you what I'm doing.

1317
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: And I said, do you want me to pay form?

1318
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,359
Speaker 1: He said no, which is a very kid rock thing

1319
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: to say. So he sent me two songs. Somebody's got

1320
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: to feel this, and I got one for you, and

1321
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: then I got one for you. He name checked me.

1322
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: I don't even remember that, but there's a verse, Hey Flam,

1323
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 1: you want to hit money for you? So I didn't

1324
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 1: know that they were sentually demo. I was on Hollywood

1325
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: Boulevard when I put those two things on and I

1326
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:35,280
Speaker 1: called him up and I said, I'll give you whatever

1327
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 1: you want and he said I want. I think it

1328
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 1: was three hundred thousand and whatever number of points and

1329
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 1: I said deal. We shook hands over the phone, and

1330
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,320
Speaker 1: then his manager at the time, I think, went and

1331
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,439
Speaker 1: shopped my deal and he started getting calls to Who's

1332
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: ever Lasting Credit Rock started getting calls from other labels,

1333
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:51,800
Speaker 1: and he was like, I don't need you now. I

1334
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 1: needed you then, and he didn't hold me up when

1335
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: they offered it more money. The same was true with Matchbox.

1336
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 1: By the way, Hollywood Records offered to triple our offer

1337
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: and Bob said, no, I'm signing with with Lava. And

1338
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 1: that was a very good decision, and for kid Rock

1339
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: was an even better decision because that was the hardest

1340
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 1: project to break, and that's why it was the most fun.

1341
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: And also because he was such an outrageous character and

1342
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: you know, just such a such an unbelievably brilliant performer.

1343
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 1: You know. Okay, so how did you break kid Rock?

1344
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: So he went and made this album, Devil without a Cause.

1345
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: I thought it was one of the greatest albums of

1346
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 1: all time. It is, and everyone else hated it. With

1347
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: the exception of Lee Drink, Angelica Cobb and Andy Carpy

1348
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 1: and our guy, everybody fucking hated it. His peers thought

1349
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: very little of him. Radio hate couldn't be less interested.

1350
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: Press thought he was a joke, this white rapper with

1351
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 1: a fade or whatever, and uh, you know, um, um

1352
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 1: MTV couldn't be less interested. And Atlantic, the company that

1353
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: I was, you know, partnered with, um they hated it.

1354
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 1: Um they hated We did a showcase in New York, Bob,

1355
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 1: the first Kid Rocks showcase in New York was the

1356
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:00,800
Speaker 1: greatest thing ever. We and we rent out at s

1357
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 1: I R. We sent out the invitation. It just was

1358
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 1: a sheet of paper and it was very the lettering,

1359
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:12,840
Speaker 1: everything was perfect, but it just said hydraulic bonds, cursing midgets,

1360
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 1: pim pimp suits, coffins and then it just said kid

1361
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:20,439
Speaker 1: Rock s I R. Seven PM. That's all that said.

1362
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 1: And that was the wrong order, but those were the

1363
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: right things. And we rented a pony from a children's

1364
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 1: party place for two because Joe Cie, who was then,

1365
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 1: I could say because that's what they referred to him,

1366
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: but he was alive. That's side. I don't know what

1367
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: to do their political correctness time. So we rented this pony.

1368
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: He didn't want to get on it. He thought it

1369
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: was a horse, but it was a pony. And we

1370
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 1: paid two hundrellars for the pony, and then we had

1371
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 1: to pay two hundreds to s I R. To read

1372
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 1: the bribe. I got to let him in the usually

1373
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 1: that farm animals in there. So Josie rode on stage

1374
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 1: on a pony and did the rap for Cowboy Um

1375
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 1: while waving a six shooter and wearing a cowboy hat.

1376
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: And we had Christmas lights drung around and we called

1377
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 1: it electric pimp suit whatever. And it was a full

1378
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 1: kid rock arena show like you would see today in

1379
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: S I R. And all of Atlantic was there and

1380
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 1: I was just as proud as I could be. And

1381
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 1: the next day they I find out they all thought

1382
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: it sucked. I was like, sucked, are you guys? I

1383
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 1: just like watching guns and Roses in the studio, you

1384
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: out of your mind as the greatest thing ever. So ayay,

1385
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 1: we were really up against it. And how it broke

1386
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 1: was that as it was going nowhere, and Lee Drink

1387
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: had written even written a letter to Howard Stern and said,

1388
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:32,920
Speaker 1: you know about this? He said, no, Lee wrote a letter.

1389
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: He was a product manager, he was a young guy

1390
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:39,919
Speaker 1: and who ultimately became kid Rocks manager. And he wrote

1391
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: a letter to Howard Stern because we thought if we

1392
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 1: can get him on Howard, and you know kid Rock

1393
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: was always with strippers and things. It was very Howard

1394
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: type of guy. So if we could get him on

1395
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 1: on Howard, we thought, you know, maybe that'll be a

1396
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 1: you know, a tipping point whatever. So so Drink wrote

1397
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 1: a letter to Howard and said, dear Howard, you don't

1398
00:58:57,760 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 1: know me. But I'm Kid Rocks product manager, and I

1399
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 1: have the following offer for you. If you'll play this

1400
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 1: record on the radio just once and then tell me

1401
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 1: honestly that you don't like it, I'll set myself on fire.

1402
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: He says, I'll take all the necessary safety precautions and

1403
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 1: you can film it if you want. But that's my

1404
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 1: offer to you. And they didn't respond, so whatever. But

1405
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 1: you know, and and and Rock and Drake had been

1406
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 1: an Israeli paratrooper, so you know he was pretty serious.

1407
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 1: But anyway, but we were trying everything. It's my point.

1408
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 1: So one day I took Louis Largent from MTV golfing

1409
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 1: and Louis was one of the senior programming guys there

1410
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 1: and we had a great day. How long after the

1411
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 1: record come out, it was months and months it was dead.

1412
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: So I took Louis golfing. This goes back to something

1413
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 1: my father told me. It was that one of the

1414
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 1: keys to success in businesses being friendly. So I took

1415
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 1: I took Louis golfing at Hudson National Golf Club, great

1416
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 1: golf course. We had a great day. He was a

1417
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 1: good golfer. We're getting my tahoe to drive home La

1418
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 1: Tahoe with the stocks stereo, which was very good, and

1419
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:51,720
Speaker 1: in my car I controlled the volume, right, So I

1420
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 1: turned this fucking thing up to eleven and I played

1421
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 1: five songs and he had already heard the record and

1422
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 1: rejected it. And after the fifth song he turns to

1423
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 1: me and he is, this guy's going to save the world,

1424
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,240
Speaker 1: and I said, I know, but it's much more important

1425
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 1: for you to know, and he goes Flom, You're going

1426
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 1: to touch them all on this one. And then he

1427
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 1: went back to MTV. I introduced him to rock. They

1428
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 1: ended up staying all night cleaning out a hotel any bar,

1429
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 1: but he went back and said we're going. He made

1430
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: a stand and he said we're gonna break this guy,

1431
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 1: and they did like a fashionably Loud was a big

1432
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: thing MTV Beach House. We got him on all these shows.

1433
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 1: They started playing I'm the bull Got in light rotation

1434
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 1: and um, you know the next thing, you know, along

1435
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 1: comes Bob with the Bob and the rest is history. Okay,

1436
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 1: so none of those videos were made at that point. No,

1437
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: I'm the bull Got had been made because I was

1438
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 1: putting real money into it, because I believe him. We

1439
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 1: spent a hundred thousand, I think on it. It was

1440
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 1: a real video. It was a great video. So when

1441
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: it started to turn, what did everybody say over Atlantic?

1442
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 1: How much? And of course we took out an ad

1443
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 1: when it went platinum, which was just the middle his

1444
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: middle finger from zero zero zero Commas zero zero zero, right,

1445
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 1: And it ran directly opposite the Christian radio charts and Billboard.

1446
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 1: People don't remember that. And then when it hit ten million,

1447
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 1: we just moved it over and at a zero and

1448
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 1: it was just like, hey, you know what like this is?

1449
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 1: And we did it right and it was fun and

1450
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 1: it was awesome, and uh, you know, I'll tell you

1451
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 1: actually a touching moment, which was that because he don't

1452
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 1: happen often enough in the business. But he became a

1453
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 1: superstar the day of the MTV Awards. You remember that, right,

1454
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 1: So the MTV Awards was a big show back then.

1455
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: It's a bigger show on cable TV. And I was

1456
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 1: determined to get him on. And so MTV had said

1457
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,320
Speaker 1: he was breaking, but he wasn't broken, and they had

1458
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: already booked Limp Biscuit and they were like, we don't

1459
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 1: need another rap rock thing, right, And I said all right,

1460
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:35,880
Speaker 1: So me and Rock huddled and we decided we would

1461
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 1: reach out. He would reach out to run DMC and

1462
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 1: I would reach out to Steven Tyler. And because anyway,

1463
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 1: he's the you know, do you think about it, he's

1464
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 1: sort of the offspring of those two you know, movements

1465
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:50,920
Speaker 1: or whatever sounds. So we put together this idea that

1466
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 1: he would perform with Run d n C and Run

1467
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 1: DMC and Aerosmith. And then I called them TV and

1468
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 1: I said, you can have your limp biscuit if you want,

1469
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: or you can have run the m Cero Smith and

1470
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 1: Kid Rock and they said, yeah, we'll take We'll take

1471
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 1: the door number two. And so it's funny because that's

1472
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 1: the day he became a superstar. And it's interesting when

1473
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 1: you watch it back and you see them if I

1474
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 1: remember right, yeah, I think Fred has a very unhappy

1475
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 1: face on as Zero Smith comes walking marching down the aisle,

1476
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 1: Stephen and Joe come marching down the aisle. Um you know,

1477
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: because they kicked in the doors, right It started with

1478
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 1: it started with Bob with the Bob and then it

1479
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 1: went in to run DMC and then and then Steven

1480
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 1: and Joel kicked in the doors playing walk This Way

1481
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 1: and they performed Walked This Way with Kid Rock, and

1482
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 1: that's the night he became a superstar. So the touching

1483
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 1: part of the story is we had a party for

1484
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 1: him that night and some basement of some place downtown

1485
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:39,280
Speaker 1: and a lot of the bands came. I think Corn

1486
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 1: came and different people came, and it was pretty It

1487
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 1: was a good party. It was a good record company party.

1488
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 1: And about going close to two o'clock in the morning

1489
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: and watch them like, what the funk am I doing here?

1490
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 1: I don't drink, I don't do drugs. Unmarried, there's no

1491
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:53,520
Speaker 1: upside in me staying here any longer. Right, So I

1492
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 1: go up to Kid Rock and I said, uh, listen,

1493
01:02:56,200 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 1: you know, congratulations, Um, you know, just austome him job tonight,

1494
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 1: you know, the usual thing, right, And I walk away.

1495
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: We hug and I walk away and he goes, hey

1496
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: flom When I turnaround and he goes, uh, listen, I

1497
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 1: know it's been a long night, and I don't know.

1498
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 1: I don't mean to bring this up at a time

1499
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 1: it tasty goes, but um, thank you, And I was like,

1500
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 1: I think I'll remember that for a long time, and

1501
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 1: I did, and I do because it doesn't last. You know,

1502
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 1: like my next question, with all this talent tends to

1503
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 1: come to an end. So what do we learn about talent? Well,

1504
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 1: I mean, you know there's that great book that John

1505
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 1: Seabrook wrote right about the what's it called this song?

1506
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 1: The Song Machine. Yeah, I was talking about some more

1507
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 1: about songwriters. But it's always fascinated me that artists have

1508
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 1: a shelf life. Um. Actors, don't. You know a lot

1509
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: of actors can act until they're and even stay popular

1510
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 1: until they're in there you know late late, you know,

1511
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 1: later years, um. But they have a peak period of

1512
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 1: creativity and it burns so hot that maybe it just

1513
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 1: burns out, and you know, they can still perform live

1514
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 1: like that. You know theory about that in order to

1515
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:09,440
Speaker 1: be successful artists, you have to be fucked up, and

1516
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 1: you have a fantasy that if you're successful it will

1517
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 1: solve your issues. And then when you become successful and

1518
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 1: you partake of all the goodies and you realize you're

1519
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 1: still the same fund up guy, you lose the motivation.

1520
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:23,440
Speaker 1: You can't do it anymore. But not all of them

1521
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 1: are fucked up. All of them are fucked up. Come on,

1522
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 1: they need they have a hole inside them that has

1523
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 1: to be filled by external validation, and they can never

1524
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:34,680
Speaker 1: really be filled. But there's a few, and you can

1525
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 1: name a few that never went off the rails seemingly right,

1526
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 1: never never went crazy. No, no, But I'm not trying

1527
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 1: to say they necessarily do drugs or you know, or

1528
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 1: on the verge of death. They just lose that incredible drive. Yeah,

1529
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 1: that's listen, that that's legit. But they but but but

1530
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:53,720
Speaker 1: that loss only manifests itself in one way, which is

1531
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:56,720
Speaker 1: their seeming inability to be able to make great records

1532
01:04:56,760 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 1: and exactly they can still perform. But I was more

1533
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 1: int listed in is being the business guy. Whether you're

1534
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:05,640
Speaker 1: the manager, the A and R guy, or the label.

1535
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: There comes a point where you're God and then all

1536
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 1: of a sudden, the talent turns against you and your ship.

1537
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 1: I'm sure I know you've had that happen a number

1538
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 1: of times in your career. Oh yeah, what what what's

1539
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 1: what's your insight on that? Forget there? Forget there artistic abilities?

1540
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 1: But you have a personal relationship, You live and die

1541
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 1: in the trenches and then your persona on gratta. So

1542
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 1: the people I most admired in the music business Amdertic

1543
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 1: and David Geffen Doug those are the three that come

1544
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: to mind. They all told me the same thing. They said,

1545
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 1: they're all going to turn on you, and I was like, no,

1546
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I mean, I don't want to

1547
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:43,480
Speaker 1: believe that. I can't believe that. And this was at

1548
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 1: the time too. I remember when Kid Rock would sometimes

1549
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 1: introduce me as, hey, this is my dad. I mean

1550
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:50,520
Speaker 1: he was half joking, but we had that type of relationship.

1551
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 1: We talked all the time. We did everything together. We

1552
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 1: plotted and schemed and did you know we created this

1553
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 1: thing from a whole cloth, right. It was his music,

1554
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong. And it's always about the talent,

1555
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 1: because there's nothing any of us can do without the talent.

1556
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 1: But we did a lot together, and um, you know,

1557
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 1: we're really close personally, and uh, you know, but they

1558
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:13,439
Speaker 1: all gave me these amazing stories. I mean, the armed

1559
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:16,439
Speaker 1: Bobby Darren's story comes to mind, you know, or any

1560
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:19,680
Speaker 1: of them where it's just so it's so weird. Well,

1561
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 1: I don't know the story. So Ammed told me that

1562
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: he uh, I think he discovered Bobby Darren and the

1563
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 1: lobby like they had a little like a little office

1564
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:31,440
Speaker 1: above Patsy's restaurant back then, and Bobby used to just

1565
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 1: show up and sit and wait around, hoping to get

1566
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 1: an audience with herb Abrams and I think it was

1567
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 1: and Armed found him when they'd say a kid, can

1568
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:37,960
Speaker 1: you play the piano? And he played the piano and

1569
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 1: arm and end up writing some of those records. I

1570
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:41,920
Speaker 1: think he maybe even written, Um. I don't know if

1571
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:43,760
Speaker 1: he wrote Split Splash, but he wrote some of the

1572
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 1: great Bobby Darren records. And he mentored him, and Bobby

1573
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:49,600
Speaker 1: gave a speech at the Grammys and called him and said,

1574
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 1: you know he said on stage. Apparently I haven't seen

1575
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:53,640
Speaker 1: the speech, but I'm told me that said the most

1576
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 1: moving things about him and everything else. And he goes

1577
01:06:57,200 --> 01:06:59,800
Speaker 1: on it becomes a big star and Mary's both don't

1578
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 1: even are a fabian or something right, and um the

1579
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 1: movie star at the time, and m it says one

1580
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 1: day he gets called to l A and goes to

1581
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:10,360
Speaker 1: see him, and Bobby's got these two managers who I'm

1582
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,280
Speaker 1: described as having these like nice manicures, these fancy suits,

1583
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:15,800
Speaker 1: and they're driving around l A and this nice car

1584
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:19,720
Speaker 1: and they were driving past the Capital Tower. He said,

1585
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:22,680
Speaker 1: and managers said to Bobby in front of them, it

1586
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 1: can you imagine if you were with a real record

1587
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 1: company like that, how big you would be. I mean,

1588
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 1: you would be the biggest star in the world in stera, etcetera.

1589
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 1: And Bobby bit and left him turned on him, and

1590
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:35,720
Speaker 1: you know, I forgot all about everything you had done

1591
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:38,680
Speaker 1: and this is his career, you know, tanked and whatever.

1592
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 1: But it didn't have to tank what it did. But

1593
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 1: it's a shame. I mean, I've learned not to take

1594
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 1: it personally anyway, because I now realized that for the

1595
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:49,640
Speaker 1: most part, it's true. And it may have something to

1596
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:52,800
Speaker 1: do with the other theory of yours. I don't know, um,

1597
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:57,640
Speaker 1: but I don't you know, I don't lose sleepover it anymore,

1598
01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:01,320
Speaker 1: like for what you know, Like I'm I'm happy for

1599
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 1: their success. Um, I hope they're happy for mine. And um,

1600
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:09,919
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm very fucking lucky to be able

1601
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 1: to play a part in this amazing thing called the

1602
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 1: music business and to be able to make a living

1603
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 1: doing what I love. So what the fuck? Okay jumping about?

1604
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 1: You know you're at Lava, they cash you out, Uh,

1605
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:24,280
Speaker 1: you have a lot of money, then you become a

1606
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 1: head of Uh Virgin tell the Story is of Katy

1607
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 1: Perry and thirty Seconds to Mars. So yeah. After a

1608
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 1: few number of other hits at Lava, Simple Plan, Transparian Orchestra,

1609
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 1: Bras became a big thing. The Uncle Cracker, Um, et cetera.

1610
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 1: There was others, Um the Cores right, Hugh jack Um,

1611
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:48,640
Speaker 1: and we sold almost a hundred million records in eight

1612
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,040
Speaker 1: years from my standing start. It was really fun. And anyway,

1613
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 1: they bought me out and they made me the chairman

1614
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 1: of Atlantic, which was an amazing experience. It was short

1615
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:57,760
Speaker 1: lived because of course, you know, everyone knows the or

1616
01:08:57,760 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 1: and I didn't get along, and it is what it is.

1617
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:01,920
Speaker 1: I got fired over a poem I wrote, I don't

1618
01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:06,759
Speaker 1: remember that, but that's true. And then um, roses are reddish,

1619
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:09,320
Speaker 1: violets are bluish our stocks in the toilet. But at

1620
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:13,560
Speaker 1: least we're both Jewish. So um, yeah, that wasn't It

1621
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:15,640
Speaker 1: didn't work out so well, but anyway, um, but it

1622
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:20,080
Speaker 1: was funny. So I got hired to run Virgin and

1623
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:22,920
Speaker 1: it was so fun, so much fun because Virgin had

1624
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:25,639
Speaker 1: been so cold for so long. The culture was fucked,

1625
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 1: everything was fucked, and uh, you know. It was great

1626
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 1: because the day that the I'd signed my contract but

1627
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:37,240
Speaker 1: nobody knew it yet, and sitting in my den, uh,

1628
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:39,160
Speaker 1: and I had this idea. At the time, the hottest

1629
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 1: movie in the country was a four year old Virgin,

1630
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:42,360
Speaker 1: So I decided I would take a picture as him

1631
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 1: and use that as my announcement. So I ran the

1632
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:47,120
Speaker 1: ad Jason flamm is the forty four year old version.

1633
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:48,760
Speaker 1: And it was lucky I was forty four because forty

1634
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:51,280
Speaker 1: four is a funny number. Forty five not funny, forty

1635
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 1: three not funny, forty two definitely not funny, forty four funny.

1636
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:57,040
Speaker 1: So that really set the tone for the new company

1637
01:09:57,080 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 1: that I wanted to build. I hired great people. I

1638
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:02,160
Speaker 1: heard Jeff kempl Um, who was my CEO I hardly

1639
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:06,000
Speaker 1: drank to be president. I hired Angelica cob back from

1640
01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 1: the old days, who was now at Columbia. Angelica. Um.

1641
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:13,600
Speaker 1: It was funny because actually the first this is a

1642
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:16,559
Speaker 1: story that's not well known, but uh, the day after

1643
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:19,400
Speaker 1: I got my job, there's a Tuesday. I called a

1644
01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:21,760
Speaker 1: guy named Steve Tramposh and I said he was a

1645
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:23,920
Speaker 1: guy who used to follow me around at clubs with

1646
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 1: a stack of research. He was a research just so

1647
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:30,920
Speaker 1: laser focused. But I've never had anything for him to do.

1648
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:33,599
Speaker 1: So I called him up. I thought maybe he wants

1649
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:36,080
Speaker 1: to be a research guy. So he comes in and uh,

1650
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:37,400
Speaker 1: I said, what you've been up to? He says, I've

1651
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 1: been managing a band. I go, no kidding? What band?

1652
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:41,000
Speaker 1: He says, A band called Red Jumpsuit Apparatus. I said, oh,

1653
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:42,559
Speaker 1: let me here. So he puts it on and he's

1654
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:45,160
Speaker 1: playing that song, phase down and halfway through, and I said,

1655
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:47,920
Speaker 1: I'm signing that. He says, you can't. I said why not?

1656
01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 1: He because you can't. He says, because we're signing a

1657
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:52,920
Speaker 1: record deal with Capital tomorrow. I go tomorrow. What do

1658
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 1: you mean to more? He goes tomorrow. I said tomorrow.

1659
01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 1: What are you talking about? He says, no, we have

1660
01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:59,559
Speaker 1: execution copies. I said, get the band on the phone.

1661
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:01,880
Speaker 1: Got the band on the phone. I said, I'm flying

1662
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 1: these guys up to New York tomorrow. I got I

1663
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:06,879
Speaker 1: think it was Kevin from the Warp Tour. Didn't somebody

1664
01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:08,800
Speaker 1: somebody at the Warp too. I think it might have

1665
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:11,720
Speaker 1: been Kevin, But anyway, I don't want to misspeak. But

1666
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:13,400
Speaker 1: I got him to call up and say, listen, if

1667
01:11:13,439 --> 01:11:16,360
Speaker 1: feel uh, I feel signed with farm and really increase

1668
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 1: your chances of getting on the tour. And the warp

1669
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:19,840
Speaker 1: tour was the thing to be on those days, right,

1670
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:22,240
Speaker 1: and I really I lined it up and they flew

1671
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 1: up the next day. I took him to dinner and

1672
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:26,840
Speaker 1: we literally, because it was a sister company of ours,

1673
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 1: we got the document that's from internally, we got it sent.

1674
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 1: We scratched out the name Capital Road in virgin and

1675
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:35,000
Speaker 1: they signed the deal. And it was funny because I

1676
01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:37,439
Speaker 1: got a call the next day from my boss was

1677
01:11:37,880 --> 01:11:40,800
Speaker 1: Alan Leavy was the head of the whole thing, my

1678
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:42,720
Speaker 1: immediate boss, with David Muttons who was for all on

1679
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:44,560
Speaker 1: and Alan called, He goes, what the fun did you do?

1680
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:46,760
Speaker 1: I go, what did I do? I signed a ban?

1681
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:49,160
Speaker 1: He goes no, and he's and he's going crazy that

1682
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 1: and he was ahead of cap Capital. He goes, he's

1683
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:53,160
Speaker 1: going crazy. He said, what do you you stole the band?

1684
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:55,760
Speaker 1: I said, Look, I'm sorry, I said, I I'm sorry.

1685
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:57,720
Speaker 1: I thought you wanted me to come in. I thought

1686
01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:00,120
Speaker 1: you wanted me to win, like I thought you me

1687
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 1: to turn this dump around. I said, if you want

1688
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:03,599
Speaker 1: me to come in second on stuff. You better tell

1689
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:05,560
Speaker 1: me now, I said, I didn't mean to steal the

1690
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:07,600
Speaker 1: band from but he had it and I wanted it,

1691
01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 1: and if my grandmother would have had it, I would

1692
01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:11,280
Speaker 1: have stolen it from her. You know what am I

1693
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:13,080
Speaker 1: gonna do? So anyway, and they had a platinum record

1694
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:14,320
Speaker 1: out of the box. It blew up. So that was

1695
01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:17,040
Speaker 1: a great way to start. And then, um, you know,

1696
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:20,600
Speaker 1: then Angelica calls me one day or says to me,

1697
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:23,160
Speaker 1: you know, you should meet this girl Katie Perrys. Who's

1698
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:25,200
Speaker 1: Katie Perry? She said she's signed to Columbia. I think

1699
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:27,400
Speaker 1: they're gonna drop her. I think she's the star. I

1700
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 1: met Katie at the Polo Lounge when she walked in

1701
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:32,120
Speaker 1: and sat down, and I went, this girl's a star,

1702
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: like this is no question about it. And as soon

1703
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:37,759
Speaker 1: as I started talking to her, like the story matches everything,

1704
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:40,080
Speaker 1: Like she's got the background, the thing, and I couldn't

1705
01:12:40,080 --> 01:12:41,400
Speaker 1: wait to hear the music. I heard the music, I

1706
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:46,479
Speaker 1: loved it and ultimately signed her. Um and uh, you know,

1707
01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:49,360
Speaker 1: sort of serendipitously, you know, she showed up that I

1708
01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:52,160
Speaker 1: invited her to our Grammy party because this was we

1709
01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:54,360
Speaker 1: just signed her at the beginning of the year and

1710
01:12:54,400 --> 01:12:56,920
Speaker 1: I invite her the the Grammy Party and she walked

1711
01:12:56,960 --> 01:12:59,559
Speaker 1: in with Dr Luke, So I was like, oh my god,

1712
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:01,479
Speaker 1: you guys areach other. Oh yeah, we're friends. I said, well,

1713
01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:04,599
Speaker 1: you're gonna work together. And I had known Luke because

1714
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:06,439
Speaker 1: I gave him his first break in the business when

1715
01:13:06,479 --> 01:13:08,240
Speaker 1: he was a guitar player side and I've actually signed

1716
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:11,160
Speaker 1: him to a record deal UM, and I thought, this

1717
01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:14,400
Speaker 1: is gonna be great. And I really forced that UM

1718
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 1: collaboration to happen because it was some resistance from people UM,

1719
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:22,880
Speaker 1: but it was and of course Luke's always driven a

1720
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:24,760
Speaker 1: hard bargain, but we made it happen. And of course

1721
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:27,800
Speaker 1: that became really a lynch pin and her well, the

1722
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:30,439
Speaker 1: lynch pin her success, and so with that combination was

1723
01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 1: just magical. I couldn't have known that. And then of

1724
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:34,960
Speaker 1: course I Kissed a girl came out and just became

1725
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:36,800
Speaker 1: this monster. And it's funny because I've had two hits

1726
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:39,760
Speaker 1: what songs called I Kiss because Jill Sobiel, who I

1727
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:41,840
Speaker 1: signed it was the first artist I signed at Lava

1728
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:44,760
Speaker 1: the first time UM, and it was with Atlantic, had

1729
01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:46,200
Speaker 1: a song called I kissed the girl with Fabby in

1730
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:47,800
Speaker 1: the video and it wasn't it wasn't a hit like this,

1731
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:51,559
Speaker 1: but it was a hit. So and then uh, thirty

1732
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 1: seconds to Mars. So here's the funny thing. So when

1733
01:13:54,120 --> 01:13:56,240
Speaker 1: you take over a new record company, UM, I hadn't

1734
01:13:56,280 --> 01:13:58,759
Speaker 1: had this experience before, but because when I came into Atlantic,

1735
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 1: I was already Atlantic. But so I I get the

1736
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:04,320
Speaker 1: job at Virgin and I a box of CDs arrived

1737
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:05,719
Speaker 1: at my house and I'm like, what am I supposed

1738
01:14:05,720 --> 01:14:07,080
Speaker 1: to do with this? Like, how are you supposed to

1739
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:09,559
Speaker 1: digest that much music and make any sort of informed

1740
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:11,360
Speaker 1: decision about what to do with these different arts? So

1741
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:13,840
Speaker 1: you talk to people, you ask, you listen, you schmooze whatever,

1742
01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:16,439
Speaker 1: and everyone's like this thirty seconds of warch you gotta

1743
01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:18,759
Speaker 1: get rid of it. It's a vanity project for an actor.

1744
01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:21,760
Speaker 1: It's just another dog Star or whatever the hell it is.

1745
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:24,000
Speaker 1: And they had an album that flopped and the new

1746
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 1: album isn't doing anything, and I was like, I guess

1747
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:28,640
Speaker 1: I should probably drop it. But they happened to be

1748
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:31,000
Speaker 1: on tour with Audio Slave and they were playing at

1749
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:32,920
Speaker 1: Madison Square Garden, so I said I should go. So

1750
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:36,160
Speaker 1: I went and the show was incredible, and I went

1751
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:37,960
Speaker 1: to dinner with them afterwards, and I was sitting with

1752
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:41,280
Speaker 1: Jared and he told me that he had just turned

1753
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:43,679
Speaker 1: down a starring or co starring role in new Cline

1754
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:48,000
Speaker 1: Eastwood movie. And I was like, what, I go, We'll

1755
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 1: come again, and he goes, yeah. I said, why did

1756
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:52,439
Speaker 1: you do that? He goes, because I I had too,

1757
01:14:52,479 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 1: he says, I. I got a call from Clinton and

1758
01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:57,600
Speaker 1: he says, you know, kid, what are you doing? And

1759
01:14:57,680 --> 01:14:59,160
Speaker 1: I said, I can't do it. I'm on tour with

1760
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:01,880
Speaker 1: my band. And they were playing clubs back then. I mean,

1761
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:03,479
Speaker 1: they got the autos lator, but mostly they're playing a

1762
01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:08,519
Speaker 1: little clubs and you know he uh, it wasn't well

1763
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:12,600
Speaker 1: received by Mr Eastwood. Um, and I said, that's the

1764
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:14,200
Speaker 1: most rock and roll thing I've heard in a long time.

1765
01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:15,840
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna make you a star. I gonna break

1766
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:18,800
Speaker 1: your band. And so I gave them money to make

1767
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:25,040
Speaker 1: a video, and uh, I called them TV. They made

1768
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:29,479
Speaker 1: the video. I call I call them TV. As they

1769
01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:31,160
Speaker 1: were making the video and I said, I'm gonna make

1770
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 1: a video with thirty seconds to Mars, and you guys

1771
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:37,240
Speaker 1: are gonna play it in a rotation that I deem appropriate,

1772
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:39,639
Speaker 1: or I'm going to stage a hunger strike in your lobby.

1773
01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 1: I said, I'm going to bring an espresso machine because

1774
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:44,840
Speaker 1: I can't live without caffeine. But I'm gonna sit there

1775
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:46,519
Speaker 1: a cross legged until you play it the way you're

1776
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:48,479
Speaker 1: supposed to. And the good news was he made that

1777
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:52,680
Speaker 1: remarkable video for The Kill where he sort of you know,

1778
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:55,519
Speaker 1: took to the plot line from the Shining and you know,

1779
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:57,760
Speaker 1: everything he does is remarkable. It just doesn't even make

1780
01:15:57,760 --> 01:15:59,640
Speaker 1: any sense. He's one of those people like Jamie Fox,

1781
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:02,800
Speaker 1: who like everything they do is fucking perfect and it's

1782
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:06,640
Speaker 1: almost unbelievable. And so uh so, yeah, we ended up

1783
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:09,160
Speaker 1: breaking the band and um, having really a great run

1784
01:16:09,240 --> 01:16:12,080
Speaker 1: with them. Okay, so Virgin, your job bands is a

1785
01:16:12,360 --> 01:16:14,720
Speaker 1: long business thing having nothing to do with you. And

1786
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 1: you start over with Universal and you sign lord. Can

1787
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:22,280
Speaker 1: you fill us in on that? Yeah? So I left

1788
01:16:22,360 --> 01:16:26,200
Speaker 1: there they preached my contract, um, and I left, and um,

1789
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:28,960
Speaker 1: you know, I partnered up with Monty and Avery because

1790
01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:32,000
Speaker 1: I had had a friendly Yeah, I had a friendly

1791
01:16:32,080 --> 01:16:33,840
Speaker 1: arriving with him over these Monty I used to speak

1792
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:36,320
Speaker 1: four times a year and we would compare notes every

1793
01:16:36,360 --> 01:16:38,559
Speaker 1: time I was breaking something, seemed like he was breaking something,

1794
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:41,160
Speaker 1: and vice versa. I remember Monty was a promotion guy

1795
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:44,559
Speaker 1: for Daniel Glass at s p K, So I thought

1796
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:46,960
Speaker 1: it wasn't I'm always breaking something and they're always breaking

1797
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:49,200
Speaker 1: Something's get together and break something. So we did, and

1798
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:53,400
Speaker 1: we always had a mutual respect and so, um, you know,

1799
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 1: not too long after I got there, Well, jesse Ja

1800
01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:59,240
Speaker 1: came first, of course, But um, and it hasn't all

1801
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:01,439
Speaker 1: been you know, line and roses. We're obviously talking about

1802
01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:02,840
Speaker 1: the good parts of my career, but there have been

1803
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:05,559
Speaker 1: a lot of frustrating and things and setbacks and etcetera.

1804
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:12,640
Speaker 1: But um, a woman named Natalia roma Chefski who was

1805
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:15,920
Speaker 1: a she worked at at a jingle place. She was

1806
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:18,200
Speaker 1: like a music supervisor or something like that, and she

1807
01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:20,439
Speaker 1: and I had been friends and she would send me

1808
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:22,280
Speaker 1: music time to time, and she sent me an email

1809
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:25,920
Speaker 1: which I now have framed and autocraft and dedicated by Lord.

1810
01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:28,760
Speaker 1: And the email the subject line was hot shit and

1811
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 1: then it just said unsigned New Zealand female listen and

1812
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:34,439
Speaker 1: that soundclad link and on the bottom she wrote, I'm

1813
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:35,800
Speaker 1: not sure if this is your type of thing, but

1814
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:38,120
Speaker 1: I thought you should check it out. So I put

1815
01:17:38,200 --> 01:17:40,960
Speaker 1: this fucking thing on Bob and it was Royals and

1816
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:45,840
Speaker 1: you know, I think love Club and and I called

1817
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,120
Speaker 1: her up and I go, what the fund did I

1818
01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:51,080
Speaker 1: just listened to? And she goes, I don't know. She said,

1819
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:52,599
Speaker 1: somebody just sent it to me. I thought I'd send

1820
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:53,960
Speaker 1: it to you. I said, how do we find her?

1821
01:17:55,000 --> 01:18:00,680
Speaker 1: So found her address on Facebook. I emailed Lord and

1822
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:02,519
Speaker 1: she wrote me back and next thing I know him

1823
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:05,200
Speaker 1: on the phone with her parents, and I think she

1824
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:06,760
Speaker 1: may have been on the call and her manager, and

1825
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:08,839
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I think your daughter's gonna win Grammys,

1826
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:12,680
Speaker 1: and um, you know, we did the deal and I

1827
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:14,120
Speaker 1: got there just in time. You know, she had two

1828
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:17,000
Speaker 1: hundred soundclown plays when I did you fly to New

1829
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:19,200
Speaker 1: Zealand though a little while after that. Yeah, I went

1830
01:18:19,240 --> 01:18:20,840
Speaker 1: to her first gig. I think it was her first

1831
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:22,960
Speaker 1: gig she had ever done with the original material. And

1832
01:18:23,040 --> 01:18:25,160
Speaker 1: it was awesome. By the way, there was seventy people there,

1833
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:27,200
Speaker 1: but she was Lord. So the deal was made before

1834
01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:29,160
Speaker 1: you flew to New Zealand. Yeah, the deal was made.

1835
01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:30,680
Speaker 1: And it was funny too, because when I was in

1836
01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:33,160
Speaker 1: New Zealand, I got an email from Sean Parker I

1837
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:36,679
Speaker 1: have a long history with and Seawan emailed Lucian Grange

1838
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 1: and copied me and he said, hey, you know, I

1839
01:18:39,160 --> 01:18:40,960
Speaker 1: just came across this girl lord. I think you guys

1840
01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:42,639
Speaker 1: should check it out. And I wrote him back and said,

1841
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:44,640
Speaker 1: she's sitting right next to me at a cafe in

1842
01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:46,640
Speaker 1: Auckland right now. It is a great moment, you know,

1843
01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:49,920
Speaker 1: so um so yeah, but she was she was like

1844
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:53,040
Speaker 1: I think she sprang from the womb, like fully formed,

1845
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:58,000
Speaker 1: because she was on stage, confident, um, you know, just

1846
01:18:58,360 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 1: doing her thing and the was those songs like you know,

1847
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:03,439
Speaker 1: they say there's three things that children can become geniuses at,

1848
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:07,400
Speaker 1: which is music, math and chess, and you know, she

1849
01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:11,639
Speaker 1: created a work of absolute genius when she was fourteen

1850
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:14,720
Speaker 1: years old. I mean, it's just it always amazed me

1851
01:19:14,760 --> 01:19:18,480
Speaker 1: about her because it's like, if she's a young teenager

1852
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:21,240
Speaker 1: in New Zealand, there's at least an argument that says

1853
01:19:21,280 --> 01:19:24,559
Speaker 1: she really couldn't have experienced hardly anything, but it seemed

1854
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 1: like she knew everything exactly. The explanation is that she

1855
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:29,960
Speaker 1: read a thousand books by the time she was twelve,

1856
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:33,200
Speaker 1: but still, it's it's just a remarkable piece of work.

1857
01:19:33,360 --> 01:19:36,360
Speaker 1: And then weren't her parents reluctant they wanted her to

1858
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:40,400
Speaker 1: stay in school? Yeah, one of them was, and uh,

1859
01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:42,679
Speaker 1: I was was in favor of her becoming a lawyer,

1860
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:44,800
Speaker 1: and I said, you know what, I come from a

1861
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:48,080
Speaker 1: family of lawyers, and I promise you there's enough lawyers

1862
01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:51,519
Speaker 1: and your daughter has a real chance to win Grammy's.

1863
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:54,799
Speaker 1: And of course, um, you know, Joel Little did that beautiful,

1864
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:57,639
Speaker 1: beautiful album, and um and I remember when she called

1865
01:19:57,680 --> 01:19:58,920
Speaker 1: me up and told me the title of it was

1866
01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:01,240
Speaker 1: going to be Pure Heroine and I almost I almost

1867
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:04,600
Speaker 1: fell down. I mean, it is, it is so that

1868
01:20:04,800 --> 01:20:09,439
Speaker 1: title is batshit fucking crazy. I mean it's so good, right,

1869
01:20:09,560 --> 01:20:11,599
Speaker 1: and the black cover and the white right, it's perfect.

1870
01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:14,640
Speaker 1: It's like some ziggy stardust type of perfection. And I

1871
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:16,960
Speaker 1: don't want to compare to David Bowie because whatever, but

1872
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:18,400
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, and he's not even here anywhere,

1873
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:19,599
Speaker 1: But that was one of my favorite albums of all

1874
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:22,120
Speaker 1: time because it was perfect. But it's out. That album

1875
01:20:22,200 --> 01:20:25,040
Speaker 1: is perfect and even the title is pure Heroin with

1876
01:20:25,080 --> 01:20:27,880
Speaker 1: an e onion and Lord has an onion? Get the

1877
01:20:28,120 --> 01:20:30,840
Speaker 1: funk out of here. Where did that what depths of

1878
01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:34,120
Speaker 1: your soul did that spring from? Because it's amazing. Okay,

1879
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:37,320
Speaker 1: So you sent me a video where you actually spoke

1880
01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:42,240
Speaker 1: in Canada at a large convention center six thousand people.

1881
01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:48,040
Speaker 1: And in the speech you gave, you talked about being depressed.

1882
01:20:48,680 --> 01:20:51,320
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about that. Yeah,

1883
01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:53,479
Speaker 1: I went through a you know, I was. First of all,

1884
01:20:53,479 --> 01:20:55,599
Speaker 1: it was such a thrill to open for Tony Robbins

1885
01:20:55,640 --> 01:20:58,000
Speaker 1: in Canada's the speech that I sent you, And um,

1886
01:20:58,160 --> 01:21:00,680
Speaker 1: I'm hoping to do more with We're work with him

1887
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:03,720
Speaker 1: because he's a force of nature. But that's beside the point. Um.

1888
01:21:04,360 --> 01:21:08,439
Speaker 1: So I spoke about the fact that about seven or

1889
01:21:08,479 --> 01:21:11,519
Speaker 1: eight years ago, I hit a low point when a

1890
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:15,360
Speaker 1: lot of things sort of happened at once and um,

1891
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:18,320
Speaker 1: and it spiraled me into a state of depression. And

1892
01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:20,760
Speaker 1: and those things, I mean, both of my parents died

1893
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:24,240
Speaker 1: relatively close to each other. I had recently been separated.

1894
01:21:24,960 --> 01:21:27,120
Speaker 1: You know, I was missing my kids and my dogs

1895
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:30,840
Speaker 1: and my life. And I had a terrible professional experience,

1896
01:21:31,439 --> 01:21:34,120
Speaker 1: the worst one I've ever had. I had fallen in

1897
01:21:34,280 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 1: love and then had my heartbroken. You remember that nonsense

1898
01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:40,840
Speaker 1: and um and so uh, you know, and then I

1899
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:43,080
Speaker 1: was angry at myself for being depressed, because you know,

1900
01:21:43,160 --> 01:21:45,639
Speaker 1: I work at the Innocence Project, right and I deal

1901
01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:48,879
Speaker 1: with people every day who had, you know, spent decades

1902
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:50,840
Speaker 1: in prison for the crimes they didn't commit. And then

1903
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:52,680
Speaker 1: I'm sitting there going, how what right do I have

1904
01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:55,320
Speaker 1: to feel this way? And so I was just really

1905
01:21:55,360 --> 01:21:58,240
Speaker 1: in a very low place, you know, and I wasn't

1906
01:21:58,240 --> 01:21:59,479
Speaker 1: sure I was ever going to get out of it,

1907
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:01,800
Speaker 1: and so how did you get out of it? You know?

1908
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:03,439
Speaker 1: I had this feeling at the time, Bob that I

1909
01:22:03,479 --> 01:22:06,439
Speaker 1: said this on stage that everything good that had ever

1910
01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:08,080
Speaker 1: happened to me was everything good that was ever gonna

1911
01:22:08,120 --> 01:22:10,080
Speaker 1: happen to me. There were gonna be no more hit records,

1912
01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:11,240
Speaker 1: There's gonna be no more women that were going to

1913
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:12,639
Speaker 1: be attracted to me, there was gonna be no more

1914
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:17,240
Speaker 1: love in my life. Everything. So I was in l

1915
01:22:17,320 --> 01:22:21,320
Speaker 1: A and uh, two things happened. When was a friend

1916
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:24,400
Speaker 1: of mine named Hannah Schmider. She says to me, boy,

1917
01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:25,880
Speaker 1: you're a fucking mess. And I said, yeah, I'm a

1918
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:27,479
Speaker 1: fucking mess. I's here for the Brampton. She said, you

1919
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:29,559
Speaker 1: gotta go see Jessica. I go, who's Jessica. She said

1920
01:22:29,600 --> 01:22:31,280
Speaker 1: she's an intuitive. I said, I don't know what that is,

1921
01:22:31,360 --> 01:22:35,720
Speaker 1: but I'm going and uh, I went to see this uh,

1922
01:22:35,880 --> 01:22:41,280
Speaker 1: this woman named Jessica Rannick. Uh and she are any kay?

1923
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:43,160
Speaker 1: And she turned my whole shit around. I mean, like

1924
01:22:43,280 --> 01:22:45,360
Speaker 1: in one session she told me why I was feeling

1925
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:47,599
Speaker 1: it the way I was. What did you learn that session? Well,

1926
01:22:47,760 --> 01:22:49,080
Speaker 1: she told me why I was feeling the way I

1927
01:22:49,160 --> 01:22:51,080
Speaker 1: was feeling, what had happened, and what to do about it?

1928
01:22:51,439 --> 01:22:54,080
Speaker 1: And just very quickly what what did she say to do?

1929
01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:55,920
Speaker 1: Why were you feeling that way? Well? She was the

1930
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:57,559
Speaker 1: first one that explained to me. And I had wasted

1931
01:22:57,560 --> 01:22:59,400
Speaker 1: a lot of time going to shrinks, you know, ever

1932
01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:02,200
Speaker 1: since my it she had fallen apart, or even before that,

1933
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:04,439
Speaker 1: every since I knew it was falling apart, and UM

1934
01:23:05,640 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 1: had really hadn't made any progress. And she was the

1935
01:23:08,439 --> 01:23:10,080
Speaker 1: first one that explained to me that the reason I

1936
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:11,560
Speaker 1: was feeling I was feeling I had a lot to

1937
01:23:11,600 --> 01:23:12,840
Speaker 1: do with the fact that I got no love from

1938
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:14,840
Speaker 1: my mother, you know, which is again when I met

1939
01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:17,000
Speaker 1: what was me whatever? People have real problems, right, but

1940
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:19,080
Speaker 1: still I was the first time anyone had made that

1941
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:22,360
Speaker 1: connection it really, it just clicked something off in my brain.

1942
01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:24,160
Speaker 1: She also said to me, just just to be clear,

1943
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:27,960
Speaker 1: did your mother acknowledge your success? Yeah? In letters? She

1944
01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:30,519
Speaker 1: could write letters, and she was she was a great

1945
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:34,880
Speaker 1: letter writer, but she couldn't say it. So, um it was.

1946
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:37,040
Speaker 1: It was a weird thing. Okay. So the second thing

1947
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:40,120
Speaker 1: she said, so I'll never forget, she says to me, Um,

1948
01:23:40,240 --> 01:23:44,320
Speaker 1: I was, I was, you know, moaning about this lost

1949
01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:46,880
Speaker 1: love which I thought it was, which was actually a

1950
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:51,040
Speaker 1: dysfunctional mess. And I said, you know, I don't think

1951
01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:53,679
Speaker 1: I'm not charming enough, I'm not attractive enough. I don't

1952
01:23:53,680 --> 01:23:55,680
Speaker 1: think any more. And she goes, how about if I

1953
01:23:55,760 --> 01:23:58,840
Speaker 1: make a list of five million beautiful women that would

1954
01:23:58,920 --> 01:24:01,280
Speaker 1: drop what they're doing right now to marry your sorry

1955
01:24:01,360 --> 01:24:03,920
Speaker 1: fucking ass. And I was like, because she curses like that,

1956
01:24:04,040 --> 01:24:06,800
Speaker 1: And I was like really, She's like yeah. I was like, huh,

1957
01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:10,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. But it actually sort of like I

1958
01:24:10,240 --> 01:24:12,280
Speaker 1: was like, Wow, she believes it. Maybe I should believe

1959
01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:13,680
Speaker 1: it too. No shrink is ever going to talk to

1960
01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:16,760
Speaker 1: you like that. So it was a combination of things

1961
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:18,760
Speaker 1: she said and and and things she did and just

1962
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:20,120
Speaker 1: the way she spoke to me and the way she

1963
01:24:20,280 --> 01:24:22,519
Speaker 1: cut through the bullshit, you know, and she did and

1964
01:24:22,600 --> 01:24:24,920
Speaker 1: then um, and it's it's funny because you're in the

1965
01:24:24,920 --> 01:24:27,360
Speaker 1: studio with us today. But anyway, it's a coincidence. It's

1966
01:24:27,360 --> 01:24:29,280
Speaker 1: not like we follow each other around all day. But

1967
01:24:29,400 --> 01:24:30,920
Speaker 1: but I we've we've been close over the years, and

1968
01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:32,240
Speaker 1: I've sent so many people. I'm sure some man of

1969
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:34,400
Speaker 1: the people listening to this podcast have been to see

1970
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:35,960
Speaker 1: her because I've sent so many people to see her

1971
01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:39,640
Speaker 1: over the years with remarkable results. Um. And another thing

1972
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:41,280
Speaker 1: happened at the same time, too, which is that I

1973
01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:43,800
Speaker 1: think it was Don Passman told me to call Rabbi Mark.

1974
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:46,400
Speaker 1: So I went to see Rabbi Mark. Who is Rabbi Mark.

1975
01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:50,519
Speaker 1: He's a life coach and is he actually a rabbi? Yeah,

1976
01:24:51,120 --> 01:24:52,840
Speaker 1: but he's had a crazy life story. He was in

1977
01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:54,960
Speaker 1: jail and he's had hits taken out on him by

1978
01:24:55,040 --> 01:24:57,320
Speaker 1: loan sharks and all sorts of crazy things. We did

1979
01:24:57,400 --> 01:25:00,000
Speaker 1: a walk and talk for an hour and he's counseled

1980
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:03,160
Speaker 1: some legendary people in music industry and he Uh, we

1981
01:25:03,240 --> 01:25:05,280
Speaker 1: did a walk and talk for an hour and he

1982
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:10,120
Speaker 1: says to me, here's what you're gonna do, go home,

1983
01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:12,920
Speaker 1: look in the mirror and say the following words out loud.

1984
01:25:13,200 --> 01:25:17,040
Speaker 1: I'm important and I matter, and then start acting like it,

1985
01:25:17,160 --> 01:25:19,880
Speaker 1: he says, because you're not. He goes, you're letting everybody

1986
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:22,360
Speaker 1: and everything push you around, and that's not who you are.

1987
01:25:22,439 --> 01:25:24,320
Speaker 1: And start, you know, start behaving in a way like

1988
01:25:24,400 --> 01:25:26,880
Speaker 1: you matter. And and I did, and it helped, you know,

1989
01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:28,840
Speaker 1: it all helped. And I, like I said to you earlier,

1990
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:30,439
Speaker 1: we're talking on when I went to see Jessica, I

1991
01:25:30,439 --> 01:25:32,240
Speaker 1: walked in feeling like a zero. And I didn't come

1992
01:25:32,240 --> 01:25:33,559
Speaker 1: out feeling like a hero, but I felt I came

1993
01:25:33,600 --> 01:25:36,160
Speaker 1: out feeling like a seven. And then the my energy

1994
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:39,600
Speaker 1: really changed and things started really Okay, You've had this peripatetic,

1995
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:43,200
Speaker 1: incredibly successful career in the music business and the thirty

1996
01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:46,439
Speaker 1: or forty years you have left personally, what would you

1997
01:25:46,479 --> 01:25:51,160
Speaker 1: like to achieve? Um? Well, you know, as you know,

1998
01:25:51,439 --> 01:25:55,800
Speaker 1: my overriding passion, obsession whatever for the last twenty five

1999
01:25:55,880 --> 01:25:58,519
Speaker 1: years has been reforming the criminal justice system, a limiting

2000
01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:03,840
Speaker 1: mandatory sentencing, decriminalizing weed, and most importantly, getting people out

2001
01:26:03,840 --> 01:26:05,519
Speaker 1: of prison that don't belong there. I mean, that's really

2002
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:09,519
Speaker 1: and and that has you know been. I mean, I've

2003
01:26:09,520 --> 01:26:11,559
Speaker 1: been at the Innocence Project on the founding board member

2004
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:13,280
Speaker 1: of the Inncence Project that I've been working on that

2005
01:26:13,479 --> 01:26:15,799
Speaker 1: just for people who maybe out of the loop, explain

2006
01:26:15,840 --> 01:26:18,880
Speaker 1: what the Innocence Project is. So, the Innocence Project is

2007
01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:24,280
Speaker 1: an organization that utilizes DNA to prove innocence in cases

2008
01:26:24,320 --> 01:26:29,479
Speaker 1: in which people have been convicted of heinous violent crimes. Um.

2009
01:26:29,560 --> 01:26:31,240
Speaker 1: It doesn't always prove innocence, by the way, supin as

2010
01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:34,840
Speaker 1: it proves guilt, but we're able to re examine cases. Uh.

2011
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:37,360
Speaker 1: And we know now that the incidents of wrongful convictions

2012
01:26:37,400 --> 01:26:40,960
Speaker 1: in this country are astoundingly high. There have been so

2013
01:26:41,080 --> 01:26:44,880
Speaker 1: many executions of people who are innocent and um and

2014
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:47,080
Speaker 1: it it just it touches me in a way. I mean,

2015
01:26:47,120 --> 01:26:49,200
Speaker 1: I've always been a very empathetic person. I've always wanted

2016
01:26:49,240 --> 01:26:53,040
Speaker 1: to help the helpless, um, whether that's a person and

2017
01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:56,679
Speaker 1: animal or whatever. And I could never think of anything

2018
01:26:56,800 --> 01:26:59,800
Speaker 1: worse than being locked up in our gulag system and

2019
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:03,920
Speaker 1: these violent, dark, terrible places of these prisons that we

2020
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:07,360
Speaker 1: have here for something you didn't do. And so um,

2021
01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:11,679
Speaker 1: so it's been my mission to help get these people

2022
01:27:11,920 --> 01:27:14,640
Speaker 1: out that are actually innocent and then to help them

2023
01:27:14,720 --> 01:27:17,360
Speaker 1: once they do get out, because it's the second punishment

2024
01:27:17,439 --> 01:27:20,439
Speaker 1: when you get out and you have you know, you've

2025
01:27:20,520 --> 01:27:23,240
Speaker 1: missed twenty years, Right, what do you do? How's your

2026
01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:25,280
Speaker 1: resume looking? How do you use a phone? How do

2027
01:27:25,320 --> 01:27:26,840
Speaker 1: you don't even know what an ATM card is? How

2028
01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:28,439
Speaker 1: do you get a license? Like? It's a it's a

2029
01:27:29,120 --> 01:27:33,640
Speaker 1: you know, it's a Really it's an unbelievable thing for

2030
01:27:33,760 --> 01:27:35,519
Speaker 1: people to go through, and it happens, like I said,

2031
01:27:35,600 --> 01:27:38,599
Speaker 1: way too often. So so that's been my h that's

2032
01:27:38,640 --> 01:27:39,880
Speaker 1: been my thing, and that's what I want to and

2033
01:27:39,920 --> 01:27:41,240
Speaker 1: that's what I'm That's not what I want to do.

2034
01:27:41,360 --> 01:27:43,880
Speaker 1: Is what I'm going to keep doing until my last breath. Okay,

2035
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:49,040
Speaker 1: So that is very soul fulfilling, not incredibly lucrative at

2036
01:27:49,080 --> 01:27:52,880
Speaker 1: this point in time, business making money, business status? How

2037
01:27:52,960 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 1: important to you? Yeah, it's it's not lucrative at all.

2038
01:27:56,080 --> 01:27:58,640
Speaker 1: It's actually the opposite. But it's fine. I mean, it

2039
01:27:58,680 --> 01:28:02,800
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. Um no, I'm really it's funny. Uh. You

2040
01:28:02,880 --> 01:28:08,080
Speaker 1: know Ron Burkele who's the legendary um supermarket supermarket king

2041
01:28:08,200 --> 01:28:13,080
Speaker 1: but entrepreneur in hundred a hundred companies. He go into something.

2042
01:28:13,120 --> 01:28:17,040
Speaker 1: It's it's at breakfast one this morning. But Ron uh

2043
01:28:17,360 --> 01:28:19,560
Speaker 1: Ron said something interesting to me. I reminded him of

2044
01:28:19,720 --> 01:28:22,519
Speaker 1: this today. He said to me, you know, guys like you,

2045
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:25,680
Speaker 1: successful guys typically after they get divorced take about three

2046
01:28:25,760 --> 01:28:27,400
Speaker 1: years to make back all the money they gave away

2047
01:28:27,400 --> 01:28:30,120
Speaker 1: in the divorce. And now it's funny because I see

2048
01:28:30,680 --> 01:28:32,840
Speaker 1: what he was talking about. I mean, I am in

2049
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:36,160
Speaker 1: I'm in such heavy work mode, and I'm feeling more

2050
01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:40,160
Speaker 1: creative and inspired than I have in memory. And I'm

2051
01:28:40,600 --> 01:28:43,800
Speaker 1: much more interested in that than doing you know, well,

2052
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:47,160
Speaker 1: I want to build businesses. I want to continue to

2053
01:28:47,360 --> 01:28:49,040
Speaker 1: work in the music industry. Of course, I'm having this

2054
01:28:49,120 --> 01:28:51,439
Speaker 1: wonderful success with Greti van Fleet right now, which is

2055
01:28:51,479 --> 01:28:55,439
Speaker 1: just the most fun and um, and you know, I

2056
01:28:55,560 --> 01:28:58,519
Speaker 1: want to create new things and I want to make

2057
01:28:58,560 --> 01:29:01,639
Speaker 1: a lot of fucking money so I can give it away. Okay,

2058
01:29:01,680 --> 01:29:03,360
Speaker 1: So at this point in time, how much of your

2059
01:29:04,160 --> 01:29:07,000
Speaker 1: day is filled with philanthropy and how much time with business.

2060
01:29:07,160 --> 01:29:09,000
Speaker 1: I spend a lot of time on philanthropy. I have

2061
01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:12,639
Speaker 1: no idea what the percentages, but it's a lot and um.

2062
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:14,880
Speaker 1: But it actually, you know, it's good too. I mean

2063
01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:17,400
Speaker 1: artists are attracted to me sometimes because of the fact

2064
01:29:17,479 --> 01:29:19,280
Speaker 1: that they know about me from that work, you know,

2065
01:29:19,439 --> 01:29:24,600
Speaker 1: so it really works together, UM. And you know, of

2066
01:29:24,720 --> 01:29:27,280
Speaker 1: course I launched my podcast I don't know whatever it

2067
01:29:27,400 --> 01:29:29,080
Speaker 1: was four seasons ago, a year, a year and a

2068
01:29:29,080 --> 01:29:31,720
Speaker 1: half ago, and that's been, you know, a real joy

2069
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:33,960
Speaker 1: for me. And what are you telling the audience exactly

2070
01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:36,200
Speaker 1: what the podcast is? So I have a podcast called

2071
01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:40,760
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction UM, and on the podcast, I interview each

2072
01:29:40,840 --> 01:29:43,519
Speaker 1: week a man or woman who was wrongly convicted and

2073
01:29:43,600 --> 01:29:46,559
Speaker 1: sentenced to decades or life in prison, or even sentenced

2074
01:29:46,600 --> 01:29:50,880
Speaker 1: to death and ultimately exonerated and proven actually innocent. And

2075
01:29:51,400 --> 01:29:54,040
Speaker 1: you know, some of them served thirty or more years

2076
01:29:54,080 --> 01:29:57,840
Speaker 1: in prison for something they did not do and again

2077
01:29:57,840 --> 01:29:59,320
Speaker 1: and some of them were sentenced to death. And sometimes

2078
01:29:59,360 --> 01:30:02,160
Speaker 1: I go inside prisons as well, inside maximum security prisons

2079
01:30:02,200 --> 01:30:06,040
Speaker 1: to interview people who I have evidence are innocent, but

2080
01:30:06,320 --> 01:30:09,439
Speaker 1: for whom the justice system is not working, and so

2081
01:30:10,080 --> 01:30:12,400
Speaker 1: to help bring attention to their cases. We recently had

2082
01:30:12,439 --> 01:30:14,600
Speaker 1: one of our people that was on the show exonerated

2083
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:16,880
Speaker 1: UM in Kansas City after twenty three years, which was

2084
01:30:16,920 --> 01:30:19,320
Speaker 1: such a wonderful feeling. And called me from the courthouse steps.

2085
01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:23,360
Speaker 1: So you know, it's an incredibly rewarding process. The things

2086
01:30:23,439 --> 01:30:26,680
Speaker 1: you pick up from the people themselves who are so

2087
01:30:27,040 --> 01:30:31,280
Speaker 1: graceful and so kind and so optimistic and they lack bitterness,

2088
01:30:31,520 --> 01:30:34,160
Speaker 1: and I don't understand it. I asked every one of them,

2089
01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:36,479
Speaker 1: and I've heard them all explained it in different ways.

2090
01:30:36,600 --> 01:30:40,120
Speaker 1: But you know, it's amazing because it puts so much

2091
01:30:40,160 --> 01:30:42,800
Speaker 1: gratitude in my attitude. I mean, the idea that I'm

2092
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:44,680
Speaker 1: able to help them. And it's funny, Bob, because now

2093
01:30:45,040 --> 01:30:46,880
Speaker 1: it's like when you walked in today. I was on

2094
01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:48,839
Speaker 1: the phone with a guy who's in a maximum security

2095
01:30:48,880 --> 01:30:50,920
Speaker 1: prison in Virginia whose case I've been working on for

2096
01:30:50,960 --> 01:30:53,320
Speaker 1: a year and it's gonna be featured. You know, my

2097
01:30:53,479 --> 01:30:57,639
Speaker 1: phone rings a lot with calls like that, and I've

2098
01:30:58,040 --> 01:31:02,880
Speaker 1: was recently, um know, very very lucky to get um

2099
01:31:03,439 --> 01:31:06,880
Speaker 1: clemency for three people actually last week who were serving

2100
01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:10,400
Speaker 1: life in prison through just hard work and connecting the dots.

2101
01:31:10,439 --> 01:31:12,400
Speaker 1: And that's outside of the Innocence Project, because I take

2102
01:31:12,439 --> 01:31:15,360
Speaker 1: on cases on my own sometimes too. Obviously there's only

2103
01:31:15,400 --> 01:31:17,640
Speaker 1: so much a person, one person can do. But I

2104
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:20,000
Speaker 1: heard about a case in this particular situation, not a

2105
01:31:20,040 --> 01:31:22,240
Speaker 1: guy who was innocent, but it got named Travian Blount,

2106
01:31:22,720 --> 01:31:25,439
Speaker 1: who had been sentenced to six life terms plus a

2107
01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:28,200
Speaker 1: hundred and eighteen years in prison. He was fifteen years

2108
01:31:28,200 --> 01:31:32,439
Speaker 1: old and he participated in a robbery. No one was shot.

2109
01:31:33,400 --> 01:31:36,400
Speaker 1: One person got hit, but they weren't seriously hurt, and

2110
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:40,400
Speaker 1: not by him. And it was the robbery of a party.

2111
01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:44,360
Speaker 1: He shouldn't have been there, he shouldn't have participated. He

2112
01:31:44,479 --> 01:31:47,639
Speaker 1: did carry a gun, he didn't have any prior arrest though,

2113
01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:51,320
Speaker 1: it was fifteen fucking years old. And this has gotten

2114
01:31:51,400 --> 01:31:55,000
Speaker 1: national news because it's so outrageous that it's just unbelievable

2115
01:31:55,240 --> 01:31:58,120
Speaker 1: and so um he was one of the people who

2116
01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:02,479
Speaker 1: I was able to help. Um convinced the powers that

2117
01:32:02,560 --> 01:32:05,479
Speaker 1: be should be freed, and he was granted clemency last week. So,

2118
01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:08,400
Speaker 1: if we could do two things in America or the

2119
01:32:08,479 --> 01:32:12,920
Speaker 1: criminal justice system to move things in the direction that

2120
01:32:13,040 --> 01:32:16,360
Speaker 1: you're mentioning, we're in a innocent people are not incarcerated,

2121
01:32:16,400 --> 01:32:18,680
Speaker 1: what would those be. That's a great question. I mean,

2122
01:32:19,080 --> 01:32:22,439
Speaker 1: there are so many problems I think we need. One

2123
01:32:22,520 --> 01:32:24,920
Speaker 1: of the first changes we need is mandatory videotaping of

2124
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:28,479
Speaker 1: interrogations um, because there's so many false confessions, and it's

2125
01:32:28,479 --> 01:32:30,640
Speaker 1: important for people who are listening to know that when

2126
01:32:30,680 --> 01:32:32,880
Speaker 1: you go on a jury, you need to have a

2127
01:32:33,040 --> 01:32:37,240
Speaker 1: more informed and educated and skeptical view. I'm not a

2128
01:32:37,360 --> 01:32:40,320
Speaker 1: person who doesn't believe of injustice system. I'm I always

2129
01:32:40,320 --> 01:32:43,479
Speaker 1: say I'm not soft on crime, I'm tough on injustice. Um,

2130
01:32:43,800 --> 01:32:46,280
Speaker 1: I'm not an anarchist by any means, but you need

2131
01:32:46,320 --> 01:32:48,519
Speaker 1: to know that just because somebody confess, or just because

2132
01:32:48,560 --> 01:32:51,200
Speaker 1: the police officers saying this, or just because of prosecutorcy this,

2133
01:32:51,320 --> 01:32:53,320
Speaker 1: or just because a quote unquote expert is saying X,

2134
01:32:53,439 --> 01:32:55,479
Speaker 1: Y or Z doesn't mean it's true. And you have

2135
01:32:55,520 --> 01:32:59,400
Speaker 1: an obligation to be there for your fellow human being

2136
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:02,240
Speaker 1: and really dive into it and make an informed decision

2137
01:33:02,640 --> 01:33:04,800
Speaker 1: whether it's guilty or innocent. You better try your best

2138
01:33:04,880 --> 01:33:06,760
Speaker 1: to get it right. And I think a lot of

2139
01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:08,880
Speaker 1: people like I used to have a view that if

2140
01:33:09,040 --> 01:33:11,439
Speaker 1: the authority figures up there saying something, it must be true,

2141
01:33:11,439 --> 01:33:13,679
Speaker 1: and if somebody confess, it must be that they're guilty.

2142
01:33:13,760 --> 01:33:16,519
Speaker 1: But how the funk do we not videotape interrogations? How

2143
01:33:16,560 --> 01:33:18,599
Speaker 1: do you because what happens is Bob and they're only

2144
01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:20,240
Speaker 1: there are twenty five states now that have managed with

2145
01:33:20,320 --> 01:33:23,559
Speaker 1: video tape interrogation, twenty five that don't, and only one

2146
01:33:23,880 --> 01:33:27,040
Speaker 1: that's just for just for by edification. Does it breakdown

2147
01:33:27,080 --> 01:33:30,479
Speaker 1: on red and blue? Uh? I don't know. No, I

2148
01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:32,880
Speaker 1: don't think so, because New York only recently passed it.

2149
01:33:33,200 --> 01:33:35,240
Speaker 1: Um it didn't have it for all these years. I

2150
01:33:35,360 --> 01:33:37,800
Speaker 1: mean so, And you know what happens is they they'll go,

2151
01:33:37,960 --> 01:33:39,120
Speaker 1: you go in that little room, and I had to

2152
01:33:39,120 --> 01:33:41,519
Speaker 1: detective them. I'm retired. Any TV detective on my show

2153
01:33:41,720 --> 01:33:43,880
Speaker 1: and YPD detective on my show recently who said, if

2154
01:33:43,880 --> 01:33:45,800
Speaker 1: I got you in that room, you weren't leaving until

2155
01:33:45,840 --> 01:33:48,120
Speaker 1: you confessed, And I was like, and then, you know

2156
01:33:48,200 --> 01:33:50,360
Speaker 1: they can lie. First of all, anyone's listening. If you

2157
01:33:50,439 --> 01:33:53,479
Speaker 1: get arrested, you know what you should say nothing. You

2158
01:33:53,520 --> 01:33:56,960
Speaker 1: should say I want a lawyer, and stop talking, because

2159
01:33:57,479 --> 01:33:59,320
Speaker 1: once they get you in that room, they can lie

2160
01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:01,720
Speaker 1: all they want. They go, Bob, listen, man, we got

2161
01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:04,920
Speaker 1: your fingerprints on the murder weapon. We have a videotape

2162
01:34:04,920 --> 01:34:07,560
Speaker 1: of you at the place we got your co conspirit

2163
01:34:07,640 --> 01:34:09,280
Speaker 1: or in the other rooms saying you did it. You

2164
01:34:09,360 --> 01:34:11,599
Speaker 1: better come clean. Man. Because it's the best way out

2165
01:34:11,680 --> 01:34:13,439
Speaker 1: for you. You know you're gonna get we're gonna be

2166
01:34:13,520 --> 01:34:16,720
Speaker 1: nice to you if you confess, and they there's so

2167
01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:18,479
Speaker 1: many cases people have been on my show who've been

2168
01:34:18,479 --> 01:34:20,800
Speaker 1: beaten in those rooms and then they bring you out

2169
01:34:20,840 --> 01:34:22,600
Speaker 1: of the room. They had a whole protocol called the

2170
01:34:22,640 --> 01:34:26,160
Speaker 1: Red method that is designed. It's a it's a psychological

2171
01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:29,760
Speaker 1: technique that's designed to elicit confessions, whether the person is

2172
01:34:29,760 --> 01:34:33,080
Speaker 1: guilty or innocent, and it works. And sometimes violence, actual

2173
01:34:33,160 --> 01:34:36,320
Speaker 1: violence is employed. Sometimes it's psychological violence. But either way,

2174
01:34:36,560 --> 01:34:38,679
Speaker 1: you get so trapped in that room that you see

2175
01:34:38,720 --> 01:34:40,320
Speaker 1: no way out other than to tell them what they

2176
01:34:40,360 --> 01:34:43,040
Speaker 1: want to hear. And many of these people like Johnny

2177
01:34:43,080 --> 01:34:45,000
Speaker 1: and Cape who was on my show, who was convicted

2178
01:34:45,040 --> 01:34:46,960
Speaker 1: of that notorious murder in New York State where the

2179
01:34:47,040 --> 01:34:49,880
Speaker 1: tourists were there going to the US Open and a

2180
01:34:49,960 --> 01:34:52,040
Speaker 1: gang of kids got on the subway to rob them

2181
01:34:52,120 --> 01:34:54,200
Speaker 1: and the mother was being pushed around and the son

2182
01:34:54,360 --> 01:34:56,360
Speaker 1: came to her aid and was stabbed to death. Johnny

2183
01:34:56,439 --> 01:34:59,240
Speaker 1: was convicted of that murder even though they knew he

2184
01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:02,280
Speaker 1: wasn't there, and he was tortured in the police station.

2185
01:35:02,479 --> 01:35:04,720
Speaker 1: Um he was he was beaten, he had hair pull

2186
01:35:04,760 --> 01:35:07,200
Speaker 1: out of his head, and at one point a cop

2187
01:35:07,240 --> 01:35:09,280
Speaker 1: who was a notorious cop who was also involved in

2188
01:35:09,320 --> 01:35:11,840
Speaker 1: the Central Part five case said to him, Um, we're

2189
01:35:11,840 --> 01:35:13,599
Speaker 1: gonna kill you and dump your body in the alley,

2190
01:35:14,080 --> 01:35:16,080
Speaker 1: and no one's gonna know about it unless you signed

2191
01:35:16,120 --> 01:35:18,320
Speaker 1: this piece of paper. So he says, you know, people

2192
01:35:18,360 --> 01:35:20,000
Speaker 1: say to me, why would I confess? I say, why

2193
01:35:20,040 --> 01:35:22,680
Speaker 1: wouldn't I confess? I've seen what they're capable of? Right,

2194
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:24,519
Speaker 1: And he was a guy's eighteen years old that's never

2195
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:27,200
Speaker 1: been in trouble with dancer. D you imagine yourself that situation.

2196
01:35:27,640 --> 01:35:30,600
Speaker 1: So nancwer tap of interrogation, and I think that we

2197
01:35:30,840 --> 01:35:35,559
Speaker 1: must have prosecutorial accountability. There's a story about an exonarian

2198
01:35:35,640 --> 01:35:37,679
Speaker 1: named Robert Jones has been on my podcast, who served

2199
01:35:37,720 --> 01:35:40,120
Speaker 1: twenty three years in prison, and he not only did

2200
01:35:40,160 --> 01:35:41,800
Speaker 1: they know he was innocent, but in his case, it

2201
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:45,280
Speaker 1: was a crime spree that continued after he was arrested

2202
01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:48,160
Speaker 1: with exactly the same m O, which led to a

2203
01:35:48,280 --> 01:35:51,400
Speaker 1: very violent crime spree, which led to the homicide detective

2204
01:35:51,439 --> 01:35:54,240
Speaker 1: who had originally arrested him going to the prosecutor. As

2205
01:35:54,280 --> 01:35:57,280
Speaker 1: he was being held in jail, and saying, listen, man,

2206
01:35:58,000 --> 01:36:00,439
Speaker 1: I've been doing this for thirty years and I never

2207
01:36:00,600 --> 01:36:04,200
Speaker 1: said this before, but I arrested the wrong guy. It's

2208
01:36:04,280 --> 01:36:08,400
Speaker 1: not him, and the prosecutors said, I don't care, And

2209
01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:11,880
Speaker 1: so this guy was uh. It took four years for

2210
01:36:11,960 --> 01:36:13,360
Speaker 1: him to get to trial. He was held in jail

2211
01:36:13,400 --> 01:36:16,160
Speaker 1: for four years, and they framed him so egregiously. And

2212
01:36:16,280 --> 01:36:19,599
Speaker 1: now he has filed suit today against the New Orleans

2213
01:36:19,680 --> 01:36:23,800
Speaker 1: Prosecutor's office for uh. He's shown he able to show

2214
01:36:23,920 --> 01:36:29,000
Speaker 1: forty five individual cases, including his own, of prosecutorial misconduct,

2215
01:36:29,040 --> 01:36:33,200
Speaker 1: of withholding exculpatory evidence, of lying, of cheating, of gaming

2216
01:36:33,240 --> 01:36:36,720
Speaker 1: the system of doing such egregious things that led to

2217
01:36:37,400 --> 01:36:40,240
Speaker 1: innocent people, many of whom were sentenced to death. You know,

2218
01:36:40,439 --> 01:36:43,559
Speaker 1: Like so yeah, I mean, and I could we could

2219
01:36:43,560 --> 01:36:45,120
Speaker 1: go on with this all day, but I mean, we gotta.

2220
01:36:45,320 --> 01:36:46,920
Speaker 1: We have to abolish the death penalty. I mean, here

2221
01:36:46,960 --> 01:36:50,120
Speaker 1: in California they just passed a horrendous death penalty speed

2222
01:36:50,200 --> 01:36:52,519
Speaker 1: up referendum, Like, what's beat up? What the funk are

2223
01:36:52,560 --> 01:36:55,000
Speaker 1: you talking about? Speed it up? Well, you know, I

2224
01:36:55,160 --> 01:36:58,080
Speaker 1: just remember, you know, I come from a background where

2225
01:36:58,160 --> 01:37:00,200
Speaker 1: you know, what is the real truth? I remember your

2226
01:37:00,280 --> 01:37:04,760
Speaker 1: Jewel at the nineties Atlanta Olympics. I was convinced that

2227
01:37:04,800 --> 01:37:08,120
Speaker 1: guy was guilty. He wasn't. So there are plenty of

2228
01:37:08,200 --> 01:37:10,519
Speaker 1: people who are really not guilty and conventional wisdom, but

2229
01:37:10,600 --> 01:37:13,840
Speaker 1: our society has turned it large. I mean, I'm a

2230
01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:16,760
Speaker 1: child of the sixties, love, peace and happiness, where now

2231
01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:22,000
Speaker 1: it's I've got mine, screw you. So ultimately going. But

2232
01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:25,799
Speaker 1: moving from this very important work back to the business sphere.

2233
01:37:26,439 --> 01:37:30,439
Speaker 1: In your thirty five odd your career, what are the

2234
01:37:30,680 --> 01:37:35,040
Speaker 1: changes that you've seen in entertainment i e. Music that

2235
01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:38,719
Speaker 1: I don't mean like a delineation of what literally happened.

2236
01:37:38,760 --> 01:37:41,200
Speaker 1: We all know about MTV and Napster, but in terms

2237
01:37:41,240 --> 01:37:44,960
Speaker 1: of what music means, the society, where the acts come from,

2238
01:37:45,280 --> 01:37:47,800
Speaker 1: where it all leads. How do you assess today as

2239
01:37:47,880 --> 01:37:51,280
Speaker 1: opposed to earlier in your career. Well, I'm hoping that

2240
01:37:51,479 --> 01:37:56,200
Speaker 1: music will, um, you know, take a turn towards the

2241
01:37:56,360 --> 01:37:59,280
Speaker 1: activism side, um, which is obviously such a big part

2242
01:37:59,320 --> 01:38:02,840
Speaker 1: of my life, and that people will artists will start

2243
01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:06,799
Speaker 1: creating um, you know, the modern day equivalent of Ohio

2244
01:38:07,280 --> 01:38:10,280
Speaker 1: or Masters of War or some of the great protest songs.

2245
01:38:10,840 --> 01:38:12,840
Speaker 1: And there have been some mostly from now. It's coming

2246
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:14,760
Speaker 1: from the hip hop side, but I think rock is

2247
01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:17,760
Speaker 1: going to make a comeback and I'm excited. So told

2248
01:38:17,760 --> 01:38:19,400
Speaker 1: me why. You have Greta Van Fleet, which is the

2249
01:38:19,439 --> 01:38:22,600
Speaker 1: most successful rock band of the last twelve months. But

2250
01:38:23,040 --> 01:38:25,360
Speaker 1: they made it to number one Active Rock, but it

2251
01:38:25,439 --> 01:38:27,880
Speaker 1: hasn't permeated the culture at large. What do you think

2252
01:38:28,400 --> 01:38:30,439
Speaker 1: is going on there? Oh, yeah, it's it's I think

2253
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:32,280
Speaker 1: I think you have to disagree with you there. I

2254
01:38:32,280 --> 01:38:34,200
Speaker 1: think it's definitely permeating the culture at large. I have

2255
01:38:34,320 --> 01:38:36,200
Speaker 1: every day, including on the way over here at somebody

2256
01:38:36,240 --> 01:38:39,000
Speaker 1: tell me that they're they're fifteen sixty year old kids

2257
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:42,040
Speaker 1: who don't listen to anything like this are jamming out

2258
01:38:42,080 --> 01:38:45,320
Speaker 1: to Greta Van Fleet. It's it's you know, it's gone

2259
01:38:45,479 --> 01:38:48,639
Speaker 1: viral and we're just scratching the surface now. But it's

2260
01:38:48,640 --> 01:38:50,840
Speaker 1: been at the top of the iTunes charts forever. The

2261
01:38:50,920 --> 01:38:53,639
Speaker 1: streaming numbers are catching up, the ticket sales are insane.

2262
01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:55,680
Speaker 1: So what does it take to make it as big

2263
01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:58,320
Speaker 1: as a hip hop track? Oh? I think that they're

2264
01:38:58,360 --> 01:39:01,160
Speaker 1: gonna you know, they're gonna, of right, They've already written

2265
01:39:01,280 --> 01:39:02,800
Speaker 1: at least one song that I think is going to

2266
01:39:02,920 --> 01:39:07,000
Speaker 1: really catch the you know, a very different segment of

2267
01:39:07,040 --> 01:39:10,240
Speaker 1: the audience and propel them to much greater heights. I

2268
01:39:10,280 --> 01:39:12,360
Speaker 1: think it's all happening the way it's supposed to, you know,

2269
01:39:12,439 --> 01:39:14,880
Speaker 1: like it shouldn't. They shouldn't be overnight successes, but they

2270
01:39:14,920 --> 01:39:17,200
Speaker 1: are actually if you think about it. But yeah, it's

2271
01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:20,560
Speaker 1: it's a it's a great slow build that's going to

2272
01:39:20,680 --> 01:39:22,439
Speaker 1: get to a place where they're going to be headlining

2273
01:39:22,439 --> 01:39:25,599
Speaker 1: arenas in twelve to eighteen months, and and the record

2274
01:39:25,640 --> 01:39:29,280
Speaker 1: sales will catch up accordingly. So you believe we're poised

2275
01:39:29,320 --> 01:39:32,080
Speaker 1: for a rock comeback. Were pois for a rock comeback?

2276
01:39:32,160 --> 01:39:34,800
Speaker 1: You know. I've recently established the movement called the Church

2277
01:39:34,840 --> 01:39:37,200
Speaker 1: of Rock and Roll, which I'm very excited about. And

2278
01:39:37,360 --> 01:39:40,400
Speaker 1: it's a lifestyle brand wrapped up in a movement which

2279
01:39:40,439 --> 01:39:42,160
Speaker 1: stands for all the things I believe in. You know,

2280
01:39:42,240 --> 01:39:44,719
Speaker 1: our first commandment is be kind to yourself, to other people,

2281
01:39:44,760 --> 01:39:48,200
Speaker 1: to animals in the earth. Um. And that's UM and

2282
01:39:48,320 --> 01:39:50,200
Speaker 1: it flows out her from there. It's all about personal

2283
01:39:50,280 --> 01:39:53,880
Speaker 1: freedom and expression and UM and being you know, being

2284
01:39:53,960 --> 01:39:57,400
Speaker 1: the best version of you and and helping other people. Right. Um.

2285
01:39:57,479 --> 01:40:00,880
Speaker 1: It's the opposite of objectivism, so to speak and um

2286
01:40:01,479 --> 01:40:03,800
Speaker 1: and I uh and it feels like this is going

2287
01:40:03,840 --> 01:40:05,560
Speaker 1: to be I mean, this is this is to me

2288
01:40:06,560 --> 01:40:10,080
Speaker 1: my next and my really my biggest act because I

2289
01:40:10,160 --> 01:40:14,560
Speaker 1: believe this is going to become transformative and um, and

2290
01:40:14,680 --> 01:40:17,560
Speaker 1: I'm really excited. I'm I'm talking to some of the

2291
01:40:17,640 --> 01:40:20,800
Speaker 1: most amazing people in the world, some of the top

2292
01:40:20,880 --> 01:40:25,760
Speaker 1: business people with expertise that I couldn't begin to approach,

2293
01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:31,120
Speaker 1: who are all excited about building, building this into a

2294
01:40:31,479 --> 01:40:34,280
Speaker 1: you know, I want I wanted to be the counterculture Margaritaville.

2295
01:40:34,560 --> 01:40:37,599
Speaker 1: You know that's my idea. And I'm not gonna get

2296
01:40:37,600 --> 01:40:39,360
Speaker 1: into all the details now, but you're gonna see it

2297
01:40:39,479 --> 01:40:42,960
Speaker 1: emerging and it's really exciting and fun. Jason, You've been wonderful.

2298
01:40:43,280 --> 01:40:46,040
Speaker 1: We've only scratched the surface. Thanks so much for appearing.

2299
01:40:46,280 --> 01:40:48,320
Speaker 1: Thank you, and please don't forget to follow me on

2300
01:40:48,400 --> 01:40:51,639
Speaker 1: Instagram at it's Jason Flam because that's where I post

2301
01:40:51,760 --> 01:40:54,880
Speaker 1: my best stuff. And also, how do they find your podcast?

2302
01:40:55,200 --> 01:41:02,559
Speaker 1: The podcast is Wrongful Conviction. It's available everywhere iTunes, Pandora, Spotify, um,

2303
01:41:03,400 --> 01:41:08,360
Speaker 1: It's available on every everywhere. Also tune in. Thanks so much, Jason.

2304
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Speaker 1: Until next time, It's Bob Left Set. We've got a

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01:41:10,920 --> 01:41:19,559
Speaker 1: wonderful time here with Jason Flower Bob here. I want

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01:41:19,560 --> 01:41:22,160
Speaker 1: to thank everyone for listening to this episode. If you

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01:41:22,280 --> 01:41:24,800
Speaker 1: heard something in this episode or a previous episode that

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01:41:24,840 --> 01:41:27,600
Speaker 1: piqued your interests, go ahead and email your comments to

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01:41:27,640 --> 01:41:29,840
Speaker 1: be at Bob at left sets dot com. I'd love

2310
01:41:29,920 --> 01:41:32,080
Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on the stories we covered, and

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01:41:32,160 --> 01:41:35,519
Speaker 1: there's sure to be more exciting ones to come. Tune

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01:41:35,560 --> 01:41:39,599
Speaker 1: in next week for more edification and information. Until next time,

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Speaker 1: it's Bob Left Set