WEBVTT - CBDCs Will Be Irrelevant, Don’t Worry | CK 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.560 CBDCs will be irrelevant and they're nothing to worry about. 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:07.720 At least, that's what my guest CK has to say 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.160 as we get into this discussion talking about the weaponization 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:16.280 of the United States, the Treasury, the DOJ, the FDICE, 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.320 how they're cracking down on crypto staking regulations, and what's 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:23.560 happening even bigger outside the United States with the rest 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:27.200 of the world. He says that CBDCs won't ship and 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:29.400 they're nothing to worry about. So let's dig into this 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:33.280 conversation with CK. We're gonna talk about bihoin, We're gonna 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:35.519 talk about crypto, We're gonna talk about the staking, We're 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:37.839 gonna talk about the US government crackdown. We're gonna talk 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:40.760 about the rest of the world's demand where this is 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:43.800 going way into the future. We get into that conversation, 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:46.760 lots of fun, amazing conversation with c K. Let's go ahead, 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:50.160 just jump right into it, all right, c K, thanks 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:53.520 so much for joining me today. We have a lot 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:55.880 of questions. I've been working on some new big YouTube 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:59.000 videos and doing some research into some of these topics, 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:01.120 and I'm pretty excited to talk to you about them today. 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:06.000 So anyway, thanks for joining me. Yeah. Mark, super honored 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:07.920 to be here. Thank you so much for the invite, 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:11.080 and to the listeners. I know you're all big Marks, 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:13.880 big Mark Moss fans. I am as well. It's been 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:16.240 an honor to get to know you over these years 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:20.040 being in bitcoin. Thanks thanks, K appreciate that. So a 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:23.399 couple of things I want to talk about is the 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:28.759 big bad government and kind of this this choke point 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:30.840 two point zero that seems to be kind of coming 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.959 back around. Wilde seems to have in my opinion, I 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:38.800 think it's crashed the cryptocurrency markets back in twenty seventeen. 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:41.120 It seems to be coming back again. And then there's 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.560 a lot of stuff going on in the cryptocurrency markets 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:49.240 against staking, against stable coins, things like that. So I 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.240 want to talk about those things, this potential choke point 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:54.960 two point zero that seems to be back, and some 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:58.680 other questions. So, you know, the first thing is I 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.800 like to say, just super simply, markets stopped going up 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.120 when there's no more buyers, which is why we have 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:06.560 blow off tops, because you suck in all the buyers 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:09.080 for that cycle, and then then it crashes back down 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:13.120 in twenty seventeen. Well even Previous to that, twenty fourteen 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:17.560 fifteen sixteen, the Obama administration had been implementing something called 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.840 Operation Choke Point, where they were basically cutting off funding 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:25.840 to lots of different organizations that were legal, legal organizations 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:30.919 like paid a lending, you know, AMMO guns, but legal 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:33.800 things where they're cutting off And then we saw at 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:36.080 the end of twenty seventeen they cut off access to 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.160 get into cryptocurrency, so cut off credit cards, banking, you 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:41.840 couldn't wire money to coin base to buy bitcoin anymore, 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.960 kind of a thing like that, And we're not going 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.720 to say it caused the crash, but it certainly didn't 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:50.920 help when no one could get into the market. Now 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.359 we're kind of at this point where maybe with Gary Gensler, 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:58.440 the SEC looks completely horrible. They should shut down and disgrace. 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:02.880 In my opinion, over FT fiasco, they didn't where they 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.480 weren't able to protect anybody. But now it seems like 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:09.720 they're coming after like innocent people maybe and really coming 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:14.280 hard after staking and stable coins. So let's dig into 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:19.160 that for a minute. Let's start with the Let's start 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:24.000 with the stable coin issue. Now, anyway, let's start with that. 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.200 What's your take on them coming after these stable coins, 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:32.320 Like they're cracking down on Paxos, which is a a 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:36.040 regulated exchange in New York, no less, which is the 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:38.600 harshest state to be regulated in, and they're saying that 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:44.800 a stable coin is a security. I mean, I wish 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:48.240 that I was more of an expert insecurities, but I 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.480 can tell you this. You know, the crackdowns on stable coins, 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:56.200 the crackdowns on staking, these are things that bitcoiners have 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.640 been kind of forecasting for a long time. There are 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:03.160 deaf only trade offs, you know, only focusing on Bitcoin. 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:06.200 But there's a reason for that, and that is that 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:11.000 Bitcoin is actually separate from the system. Bitcoin is not 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.560 a security, that's been said by the CFTC, the SEC 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:17.400 And if you just kind of like look at what 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:21.320 a security is offering is on paper, Bitcoin doesn't, you know, 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:24.680 fails that test. So it's really the only thing that's 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:29.359 fully kind of outside of the existing regulatory arm. But 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:32.279 when it comes to stable coins, when it comes to 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:34.680 staking and this kind of stuff, it's all part of 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:38.680 the fiat system. So at some point it has to 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:46.480 conform to whatever the rules or whatever the expectations are 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.360 of it, whether that those rules or expectations are effective 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:54.000 or just or whatever. So you know, it's it's becoming 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.520 like the writing is on the wall. If you're holding 0:04:56.560 --> 0:05:00.800 significant value and quote unquote stable coins, Uh, you know 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.599 those are not safe by any means, and they're not 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:10.240 they're not separate from or or or different than any 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:15.520 other uh you know, illegal financial or legal or illegal 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:20.359 financial instrument. Yeah. I just to kind of clarify what 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:22.080 you said. You said that bitcoin is the only one 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.760 that's kind of outside of the financial system or the 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:28.680 regulatory system. It's not that it's outside of it, it's 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.800 that the previous head of the SEC J. Clayton and 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.840 Gary Ginsler both said that bitcoin is a commodity, and 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:38.880 Gary Ginzler reiterated that it's the only one I'm willing 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.520 to say that about. So, um, they're out of the 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.600 out of the crosshairs of the security crackdown. I think 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:49.200 it's probably what you're meaning. Yeah, I mean bitcoin is 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:52.920 its own thing, and bitcoin is not reliant on any 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:58.520 entity outside of itself and its incentives to persist. So 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:02.839 when it comes to these stable coins, they're all reliant 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:08.760 on bank accounts and dollar equivalent assets and traditional banking, 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:13.760 and they're all trying to serve a legacy product. They're 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:18.200 trying to serve a dollar in a method that works 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:21.640 for different kinds of users. There's immense amount of demand 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:25.520 for that. Our CEO, David Bailey was recently in Turkey 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:28.840 right after the horrific earthquake there and the place is 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:33.280 completely taken over by tether, stable coin, and bitcoin because 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:35.680 the lira has failed and people are trying to get 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:39.520 into dollars. And that's the only thing that you know, 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:43.720 has really had significant market penetration because it is slightly permissionless, 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:46.840 but it's still part of the dollar system, and that 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:48.960 is you know, that is going to put it within 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:53.440 the purview of US regulators and ultimately, you know, hold 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:58.679 those instruments back, especially if they don't kind of bend 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.320 the knee to what is meeting dollars from getting into 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.120 Turkey and other places like that in the first place. Right, 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:09.720 they have to conform because they're tied to the existing system. Yeah, 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:11.880 and they certainly don't want to give up control over that. 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.680 It's interesting. So he was in Turkey after that and 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:17.520 he's seeing a massive amount of adoption going on there. 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:19.880 That's what he's that's what's reporting back. Oh yeah, I 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:23.240 mean the lira is in complete, is in complete, shabbles 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:26.560 and yeah he was, he was posting pictures within our slack, 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.720 our internal slack. And it's just like one money changer 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:33.080 after another. Everyone is using tether. Um. You know, you 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:36.000 get into a cab and you know their preferred their 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.440 preferred money is tether. Yeah, now what do you think 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.360 about um? So, so just for everybody listening, I mean 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:44.880 I agree with everything that you're saying there. Um. We 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:47.800 we're kind of stuck though, in this kind of like 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:50.720 transitional period though, right where we're kind of moving from 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.080 one legacy system as you called it, as I call 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.360 it um dying and another system UM. And it seems 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.480 like these stable coins have some sort of a use 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:04.920 case in this interim process and in emerging markets, right, 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:08.840 I mean, people need something to transact with. I think 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:11.080 you would probably agree, correct me if I'm wrong. But 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.840 you know, Bitcoin may not be the best form of 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.520 money for your daily and weekly spending because of the 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.320 volatility going up and down. And so maybe these stable 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:23.200 coins kind of work as this medium exchange and bitcoin 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:25.600 kind of more of a store of value maybe working together, 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.120 and so maybe they're they're important in this kind of 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:32.560 like interim step. They're totally important. Here's the reality is 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:36.000 money is a medium exchange, a store of value, and 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.160 a unit of account. The unit of account part is 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:43.600 literally a mental operating system. Right, So the world is 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:46.760 running on the dollar as the unit of account. Right. 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:49.680 That means we have to get ninety nine percent of 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:55.880 the population to change how they measure value on paper 0:08:56.040 --> 0:09:00.920 in contracts in their head to something different. And until 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:05.360 that happens, until everyone changes their programming to bitcoin. Uh, 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:10.440 you know, something that's like a a permissionless dollar cash 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.760 token is going to be super useful because it kind 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:16.959 of falls in the middle, but it definitely has issues. Right. 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.800 There's a reason why Stoshi, you know, he chose fixed 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:23.680 supply and not fixed value because that's something that you 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:27.439 could do in a desentualized market base, whereas like something 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:31.640 that's based off of another fiat, like it's inherently always 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.760 going to be tied to h you know that system. 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:39.880 So I think sable coins are super helpful, right, but 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:42.640 if you zoom out, like why are they helpful is 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:47.960 because US dollar banking is permissioned and they purposely marginalize 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:52.200 populations that's part of the system. So it's like, who 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.760 makes the unbanked, Well, it's the bankers, right, it's not 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.319 it's not like cash is not helping them. It's not 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.520 like there isn't financial instruments that are emerging in the 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:05.920 markets that have permissionlessly served people across the planet. It's 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:09.840 literally banks and permission that it's part of the system. 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.640 So you know, the stable for oins have kind of 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.000 found this niche where you can use a permission a 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:19.040 semi permissionless blockchain, you can use tokens that resemble a 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:24.439 dollar and generally hold value against a dollar. And that's 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:27.280 something that people who have been cut out of banking systems, 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:31.720 whether it's the lira or I forget what the Lebanese 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:35.200 currency is called, where you know the currency is being devalued, 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.120 banks are shutting down, they're losing their accounts and they 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:40.320 need to turn to something else, or whether it's like 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:43.640 in Africa where there's there's no access to bank accounts 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:46.760 in the first place, they need something else. So you know, 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.880 the culprit here is banking, it's government, it's kyc that 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:52.880 unbanked people that create this need for people to get 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:56.480 financial instruments on the Internet that are permissionless, and we're 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.120 living in a dollar world still, so of course a 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:01.679 permission US dollar token is going to have a lot 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:04.440 of utility. Yeah, that's such a good point that you 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.400 bring up. I mean, you know, I believe that the 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.640 unbanked has been coming down. I think in like twentyeen 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:12.600 it was like close to two billion adults, and it's 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:14.400 it's been dwindling down a little bit, but still we 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:16.640 have over a billion people without access to banking. And 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.720 to your point, it's because they don't have permission to join. 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:24.720 It's a banking and government failure. Like before, before electronic banking, 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:29.880 before permission banking, no one didn't have access to cash 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:33.000 or precious metals or whatever. Those things always had a 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:36.560 market rate and we're you know, the they were you know, 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:40.360 a bear instrument, if you will. So once you got 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:44.560 into that permissioned internet banking world, that's where the marginalization started. 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:48.439 That's where the unbanked happened. Right, It's a failure to 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:53.840 to serve those people, either purposefully or or or you know, 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:57.720 just based on incompetence or unwillingness to do something whatever. 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.320 But it's it's actually a a failure from the banking 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:05.440 and government sector why people are unbanked in the first place. Yeah, certainly, 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:07.559 I mean with the permission aspect, and so if you're 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:09.720 a fifteen year old kid growing up in Iran, sorry, 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.079 you don't get access to the bank. There's also or 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:15.040 in the US. Yeah, I mean it's it's ages too, 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.439 So I'm bullish on bitcoin unlocking the potential within our 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.560 youth as well. Yeah, that's true, you know, but also 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.440 then you have like an El Salvador. It's just not 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:26.959 economical for people to have bank accounts, right, So it's 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:28.439 like it's twenty five bucks a month to have a 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:30.560 bank account. I can't afford twenty five bucks a month, 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.160 so I don't have a bank account either. Or it's 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:35.640 like it's it's I'm so rural for me to get 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:37.840 on a bus and ride five hours to a bank 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.000 and then I don't even have the documentation. But I 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:42.600 guess that goes back to the permission aspect of it. Yeah, 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:46.440 but government's marginalizing people. That's why most people are unbanked. 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:48.440 And yeah, I mean it goes to say, like if 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.160 most people can't afford bank accounts, you know, it makes 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:54.280 you think, like who's paying the bank like where Like 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.360 clearly they're not making their money by serving customers, so 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.720 they're making the money somewhere else. Yeah, and that's a 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:02.840 good point, you know. I think it's important for everyone 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:06.440 listening to pay attention because what happens is we apply 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:09.320 our own biases to these things typically, and so typically 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.000 what I hear is everyone looking from this very US 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.280 centric viewpoint of like, what's wrong with our money? What's 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:17.400 wrong with the banking system? It seems to work pretty 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.439 good for me, without taking into consideration the rest of 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:23.280 the world that is, to your point, being marginalized because 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:27.040 of this, and it seems like jumping into another form 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.920 of digital money. We have these now CBDCs that they 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:31.880 want to shove down our throat, and a lot of 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:34.680 these governments, you know, you got the IMF or the ECB, 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:37.760 and they're like, well, what people want is they want 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:41.480 digital money. That's the problem we need to give them. Look, 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.080 Bitcoin just shows that they want digital money, So let's 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:47.000 just give them digital money and then that will solve everything. 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:50.800 They think without taking the consideration it's not the digital money, 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:55.920 it's the access and permission that people want. Yeah, I mean, 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:02.640 I personally, I'm a CBDC respect and I personally do 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.280 not think that they will ever ship. They will never 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:08.040 actually make any real market impact. I know that there's 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:10.240 a lot of people who are in the United States 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:14.000 or globally period A lot of people are fearful of CBDCs. 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:18.240 They will never ship, and when they do ship, they're 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.000 gonna have a difficult time with adoption. And where will 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.640 bitcoin be? I think that's the key here is. You know, 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:25.520 you look at the Bank of England. They're saying, oh, 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.760 we're gonna ship the britcoin in twenty thirty. Well, where's 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.160 bitcoin going to be in twenty thirty, right? Bitcoin is 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:35.760 out in the wild in production, right, we're talking about 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.920 the ECB Central Bank digital currency. You know, also similar 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.840 forecast twenty twenty five to twenty thirty, still in you know, beta, 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.560 still testing, still doing all this stuff. Well, you know, 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:51.000 the longer that these entities don't ship. And again I 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:53.280 don't think that you know, many people even within these 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:56.400 different governments, are saying CBDC is a solution looking for 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:59.680 a problem. You know, I really don't think. I'm not 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:01.720 fear full of them. I don't think that they're gonna ship, 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:04.760 and I'm you know, honestly, I'm not very confident and 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:08.280 really any government's ability to compete against bitcoin as digital 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:11.680 money in the long run, well, I think they're gonna ship. 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:13.400 I would agree with the second part, though, I don't 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:15.000 think it can compete. And we can see this in 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:19.360 real time. So obviously China's shipped. There's in Nigeria, they've 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.240 shipped the Niara, that e Niara, But the problem is 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:24.160 they can't get anybody to use it. They can't get 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:26.440 anybody to adopt it, and so they tried first the carrot, 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:28.520 which was like, hey, if you use this, you know, 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:31.680 we'll give you discounts off your taxi, cabs, etc. Nobody 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:33.760 wanted that. That was the carrot. So then came the stick, 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:35.880 which is like, well then we're gonna limit all cash 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.080 withdraws and force you to use it. But the people, 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:42.360 you know, are like, wait a minute, we didn't want 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:44.320 It's not that we didn't want it because it wasn't digital. 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:48.320 It's because the Niara continues to lose value, you continue 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:49.760 to evase it. That's why we don't want to And 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:51.840 the e Nira is the exact same thing. So we 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:55.200 already got bitcoin like we're good, Like we're rejecting that, 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:58.240 you know, I mean, yeah, bitcoin is here and bitcoin 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.200 is still nascent, So where's bitcoin gonna be twenty thirty, right, 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:06.400 you know, that's that's another seven years from now. I'm 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.720 calling for hyper big cooinization. Mark. I don't know about you, 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:11.320 but you know, I think brickcoin is going to be 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:13.800 quite the joke if they're trying to ship in twenty thirty. 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:18.840 The other thing that I'm the thing I'm slightly bullish on, 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:21.880 or maybe not slightly, maybe heavily bullish on, is the 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:25.120 incompetence of the government. And so I mean I was 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:29.160 looking at some things. I'm sure everybody remembers the famous 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:33.560 Obamacare website rollout where they spent like billions of dollars 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:37.320 to build a website that just helps you shop insurance plans, 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:39.520 Like we don't have like a million of those, and 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.000 they weren't billion dollars and they couldn't even get that working. 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.360 We have the IRS. The IRS has been trying to 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:50.440 overhaul the computer system for decades. They every year send 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:52.320 out millions of tax returns that are wrong because the 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:55.600 software is no good. Last year they said Okay, fine, 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:57.560 we give up. We're not going to overhaul the software. 0:16:57.640 --> 0:16:59.520 We're just going to fix the core things, and we 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:03.200 hope to have it done by twenty thirty. Like, but 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:09.960 the court things by twenty thirty. What where's bitcoin gonna be? Mark? Yeah, 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.800 So every time they say that something where's bitcoin going 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:15.600 to be? Bitcoin is innovating faster than you can imagine 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:20.159 in a compounding manner. So good luck. Now what's interesting 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.120 I think too, back to kind of having this US 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:24.840 centric viewpoint right where it's like if we look at 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:28.000 it just from a developed world or a US centric world, like, 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:30.800 it's it's one one view. But one thing that I 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:32.359 keep in mind, I mean back to kind of your 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:37.359 point bringing up Turkey emerging markets is where they really 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:39.399 have the use case, where they have the need. I mean, 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:41.399 if you're in North Korea, you don't have to convince 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.840 somebody why that money is no good, or in Turkey 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.439 or you know, Argentina or whatever. And so one thing 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:50.720 I've been thinking about is like, um, you know, the 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:52.639 Internet grew really fast in the United States because we 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:56.280 had phone lines everywhere, but we saw like in Africa 0:17:56.320 --> 0:18:00.000 they leap frog past that and went straight to wireless. 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.480 So now the dollar, if you look at the dollar 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.199 above everything, the dollars like a payment network. It's like 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:08.520 a wired network right with a correspondent banks and the 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.239 Swift system, and so that system and a lot of 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:14.000 dollar bowls will tell you, Like even I had Nick 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:16.880 Bodion and he was talking about how the dollar can't 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.679 be replaced because of this network that's there, just like 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.000 the phone lines were there for the Internet, but then 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:25.399 it leap frog past that and went straight to a 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:27.840 new network, a wireless network. And I think we're seeing 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.760 that happen with bitcoin, where we're seeing this adoption really 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:35.960 happening in Africa, in Turkey, in South America, etc. Yeah, 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.159 I mean I say it simply. Bitcoin is money that works. 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:43.520 That's it like, And as long as it continues to work, 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.159 it will continue to be adopted. And it always wins 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.600 on the margins, so it wins in the most marginalized places. 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:54.600 And really where we see this idea of hyper bitcoinization 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:58.919 is when the margin or the mark I guess like 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:03.760 the overall size of the bitcoin market reaches parody or 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.200 close to parody with the size of the traditional market. 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.639 And then and then I think that's where you know, 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:13.760 the the S curve kind of goes vertical, So bitcoin 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:16.200 wins at the margins. It wins in the areas that 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:24.080 are being purposely unbanked, debased, shut out, sanctioned, whatever. That's 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.639 where bitcoin will will win. Bitcoin's going to just take 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.119 all the low hanging fruit and continue to get bigger 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:32.480 and bigger. And you know, I agree that, like, people 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:35.439 who have very very bad money are obviously going to 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:40.120 turn to bitcoin and other alternatives more readily, especially because 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:42.040 they've felt the pain. But I don't think that the 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:44.919 first world doesn't need it per se. Actually think that 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.840 the first world has been held back very much by 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:52.280 their exorbitant privilege and by the dollar. And there is 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:55.600 no way for us in retrospect to calculate or try 0:19:55.600 --> 0:20:03.560 to make make, you know, try to like evaluate what 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:08.800 was lost because of inflation, what was lost because of 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:13.639 the poor incentives from the Federal Reserve and from dollar 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:16.119 printing and from the cantle On effect. It's going to 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:18.960 be impossible to evaluate that. But I can guarantee you 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:24.399 that using bitcoin, a perfect monetary system with a clear 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:30.840 and fair mechanism for distributing coins and managing a monetary 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:34.840 policy that an economy will will be superior on that 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:38.639 kind of a foundation. So I'm very excited for a 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.000 world on a bitcoin standard, and I'm very excited for 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:46.840 the West to embrace bitcoin. Finally it might get leap frogged. 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:49.600 It's most likely going to hit critical mass in the 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:52.600 Global South and in the Middle East, in other places 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:54.840 that are really on the losing end of the dollar. 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:58.040 But everyone is a loser from the dollar. No one 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:01.000 is a winner. Yeah, I certainly agree with that. I 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.080 guess I wasn't saying that we don't we don't need it. 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.160 Certainly we need it. I think it's just that humans, 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:08.640 we typically only move when the pain gets high enough, 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:11.000 and a lot of us have different pain thresholds. It's 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:12.639 kind of like that junkie, right, They're only going to 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.080 seek rehab or seek change when they hit rock bottom. 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:17.480 And so everybody's going to be forced to move at 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:19.720 some point. It just depends on how early or how 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:21.640 much pain you have or something like that. And so 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:25.160 if you're in Argentina or Venezuela or North Korea or Turkey, 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.359 like you have a really big need to do something asap, 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:31.840 whereas in the United States, like we're bleeding slowly, you know, 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:35.560 so like we can kind of especially relative. Yeah, I'm 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:38.320 going to I was gonna say, I'm going to Argentina 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:42.560 next month, and you know, everything I prepaid for as 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:44.800 all of a sudden gotten a lot cheaper. So I 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:49.000 should have just waited as hyperinflation ripped. But yeah, I mean, 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:55.000 it's definitely cushy being the beneficiary of receiving dollars directly 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.040 and being in the United States. But you know, as 0:21:58.080 --> 0:21:59.640 you look at the map, the rest of the world 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:01.919 is hurt. And I think here, here's one of the 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:04.960 most insidious things about the dollar system, mark, is that 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:08.560 the dollar system is a global system. The dollar system 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:12.920 marginalizes in de banks people, and the dollar system requires 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:16.160 that the dollar system actually can't support one hundred percent 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:18.920 of the planet on a fair system. The dollar system 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:22.440 requires that seventy percent of the planet is either enslaved 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:26.400 or debanked or destitute in order to support a lifestyle 0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:31.000