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Speaker 1: Trust me.

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Speaker 2: Trust me. I'm like a squat prs.

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Speaker 3: I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 4: If you think that one person has all the answers, don't.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to trust me.

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Speaker 5: The podcast about cults, extreme belief and the abusive power

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Speaker 5: from two non Manson girls who've actually experienced it. I

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Speaker 5: am Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth. Today our

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Speaker 5: guests are Diane Lake and Deborah Herman. Diane Lake aka Snake,

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Speaker 5: was the youngest member of the Manson family, and Deborah

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Speaker 5: is the co author of her book called Member of

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Speaker 5: the Family, My story of Charles Manson, Life Inside is

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Speaker 5: Cult and the Darkness that ended the Sixties.

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Speaker 1: It is a great book. I recommend it.

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Speaker 5: I read it it's episodes of two Parter Folks because

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Speaker 5: there's so much to the story. I cannot believe that

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Speaker 5: Diane was willing to come on and talk to us.

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Speaker 1: I am very grateful because this is fucking awesome.

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Speaker 5: So for everyone who hasn't read Helter Skelter and watch

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Speaker 5: every Charles Manson doc like I have. Diane did not

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Speaker 5: have anything to do with the Tate lobbyon commerders. In fact,

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Speaker 5: she was actually a key witness in the trial that

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Speaker 5: put Charlie in prison and the girls. She's going to

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Speaker 5: tell us about the tumult and trauma of her life

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Speaker 5: leading up to meeting Charles Manson, whom she knew as Charlie,

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Speaker 5: living in Los Angeles in the nineteen sixties with counterculture

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Speaker 5: parents and bouncing around communes with grown men going after her,

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Speaker 5: and what it was like when she first met Charles

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Speaker 5: Manson and his girls when she was just fourteen.

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Speaker 4: We talk about what it was like being with Charlie,

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Speaker 4: dumpster diving, stealing cars, taking lsd and having sex. And

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Speaker 4: in part two next week, we'll get into Charlie's downward

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Speaker 4: spiral as he grew paranoid and began talking about a

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Speaker 4: race war, learning about the murders, testifying at the trial,

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Speaker 4: and finally facing her trauma.

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Speaker 5: I just love Diane and Deborah, both of them.

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Speaker 1: They're so great.

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Speaker 5: I feel like they're us in you know, however many

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Speaker 5: years like I feel like we will be them.

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Speaker 1: We're them, they're us, we're them. But before we get.

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Speaker 5: Into that, our cultiest thing this week, we have a

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Speaker 5: story we're going to talk about that's in the news.

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Speaker 5: We sure do, and if y'all haven't heard about it.

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Speaker 5: It's kind of crazy, Megan, do you want to I'm sure.

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Speaker 4: There is a woman named Amy who has started going

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Speaker 4: by Mother God. It appears that started happening around twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 4: She started an ascension cult, got some followers.

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Speaker 3: But why Amy is in.

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Speaker 4: The news this week is because she was discovered in

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Speaker 4: a basement, mummified dead, with makeup around her eye sockets

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Speaker 4: and wrapped in Christmas lights.

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Speaker 1: Let's be clear, it was glitter around her eye sockets.

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Speaker 3: Apologies.

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Speaker 5: Her name was Amy Carlson and her group was called

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Speaker 5: Love Has Won. Yeah, she often went by the name

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Speaker 5: Mother God. And there were just like seven people in

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Speaker 5: the house, right, yep, and two two kids just chilling.

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Speaker 1: So let's be clear.

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Speaker 5: Her body was not recently dead. Her body was so

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Speaker 5: badly decomposed. Her body was so dead they could not

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Speaker 5: even get her fingerprints.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she was extremely dead.

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Speaker 5: It's not funny, it's just so it's just like what

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Speaker 5: was happening. So the group apparently said that she ascended. Oh,

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Speaker 5: here's some of the quotes. So on Sunday May first,

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Speaker 5: a man who appeared to be a member of the

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Speaker 5: group positive video during which he said mom has ascended

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Speaker 5: and quote completed her contract and then he said, is

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Speaker 5: the mission over?

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 5: Carlson apparently abandoned her family to teach spiritual intuitive ascension

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Speaker 5: sessions fifteen years ago, so not twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 3: Oh apologies, my god.

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Speaker 5: I mean, she was on Doctor Phil last year talking

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Speaker 5: about her group. But it doesn't look like they murdered her.

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Speaker 5: It looks like, according to one article, she was like

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Speaker 5: so obsessed with colloidal silver, which a lot of like

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Speaker 5: homeopathic medicine people champion, but if you take too much

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Speaker 5: coloil silver, it can be poisonous.

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 1: Also, it can turn you blue.

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Speaker 5: If you google colloidal silver blue person, you will see

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Speaker 5: that it can actually literally permanently turn your skin blue,

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Speaker 5: which is fucking insane. But it suspected that she was

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Speaker 5: selling it as a quote a cure for COVID nineteen,

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Speaker 5: not a cure, my friends. And she was taking so

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Speaker 5: much of it and she had cancer, so it seems

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Speaker 5: like she probably we died from these different things and

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Speaker 5: then they just created this shrine around her body, don't

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Speaker 5: you think, right?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 5: And honestly, I got to say, I was listening to

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Speaker 5: some death positive podcast last year and they were talking

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Speaker 5: about this ritual. This like death positive ritual and I

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Speaker 5: don't remember what it's actually called, but where someone who's

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Speaker 5: like your guide through your grief comes over and you

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Speaker 5: actually let the body remain in your home for three

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Speaker 5: days and like say goodbye to your loved one properly,

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Speaker 5: and you know, cover them in beautiful things, and the

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Speaker 5: practitioner or whatever basically keeps dry ice around so the

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Speaker 5: body doesn't decompose. I actually thought that that sounded really nice.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: We're so afraid of death and we're so like we

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Speaker 5: want to avoid it, we don't want to see it.

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Speaker 5: And there's something I think that's really cool about like

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Speaker 5: facing it and making it be this loving goodbye ritual

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Speaker 5: instead of like get.

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Speaker 1: It out of here.

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Speaker 5: We don't want to see that. We don't want to

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Speaker 5: know about death, you know what I mean. So that

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Speaker 5: version of it, I actually think is really cool. Letting

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Speaker 5: the body fully decompose in this bedroom, in this house

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Speaker 5: you're all staying, and maybe not as much.

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Speaker 1: But I don't understand.

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Speaker 3: Was she mummified or was she decomposed?

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Speaker 1: I guess One article said mummified.

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Speaker 5: One said her body was so badly decomposed that they

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Speaker 5: couldn't get her fingerprints, so I don't know what that means.

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Speaker 5: What does that mean?

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Speaker 3: Well, one of I don't know.

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Speaker 4: One of the interesting things about her is that she

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Speaker 4: in a past life was Jesus.

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Speaker 3: And Marilyn Monroe.

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Speaker 5: Wow, it's amazing how many people were Marilyn Monroe in

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Speaker 5: a past life and Jesus, Like, so many people were

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Speaker 5: them in a past life.

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Speaker 1: M who was it really? You know exactly which one?

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Speaker 1: Who's the real one.

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Speaker 4: One of the most traumatizing moments of my life is

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Speaker 4: when my cat psychic told me my last life was

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Speaker 4: on a tugboat with my cat as my husband.

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Speaker 1: Wait, who did I'm sorry, can you repeat that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, my cat psychic told me that my last life

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Speaker 4: I was on a tugboat and my cat was my husband.

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Speaker 1: So you have a cat psychic?

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Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, So like a psychic who tells

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Speaker 5: you about your your cat.

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Speaker 3: Right right? And well just cat. I only had one

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Speaker 3: session with her.

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Speaker 4: It was a birthday gift, and she was you know,

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Speaker 4: what's the word, uh not real? Yeah no, but I

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Speaker 4: figured but uh, hearing that your past life was just

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Speaker 4: like wow, cool, We're like stealing food from restaurants And

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Speaker 4: then going and hiding out on our tug boat, and

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Speaker 4: I was just like, no, tell me, I was Marilyn Monroe.

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Speaker 4: Tell me, I was, Jesus, what is this? This is crazy?

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Speaker 1: You know what I would love to do.

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Speaker 5: I would love to go to a bunch of psychic

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Speaker 5: people who uh tell you what your past lives were,

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Speaker 5: and give them all different information about myself and see

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Speaker 5: the different like variations of past.

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Speaker 1: Lives that come up. Clearly, y'all, I do not believe

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Speaker 1: in past lives.

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Speaker 5: I know that some of our listeners might, I personally

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Speaker 5: do not, nor do I believe that you can determine

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Speaker 5: what your cat's right past life was.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I wish I didn't believe in past lives,

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Speaker 4: but I think I do so bummer but.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, this lady, classic classic Meganaloa, Am I right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I mean past lives indicates that I'm gonna have to

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Speaker 4: come back here again, which is just like lol.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, I don't know, man, what do you think

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Speaker 5: you'll be in your next life?

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Speaker 3: Probably like West Kardashian's child or something.

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Speaker 5: That sounds right for you. I guess I'm just I'll

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Speaker 5: come back as during the ground baby, Okay, okay, anyway,

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Speaker 5: So can't wait to talk to Diana and Deborah.

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Speaker 1: Are you ready? Ready, let's do it. Okay, here we go.

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Speaker 5: Welcome Diane and Deborah Dane Lake and Deborah Herman. So, Deborah,

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Speaker 5: you are the co author of Diane's book, Member of

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Speaker 5: the Family, my story of Charles Manson, life inside his

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Speaker 5: cult and the darkness that ended the sixties. Can you

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Speaker 5: both say your names for our audience so they can

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Speaker 5: tell the difference between your voices.

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Speaker 6: Hello, I'm Diane Lake and I'm Deborah Herman and we're

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Speaker 6: used to like talking at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Why not.

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Speaker 5: Thank you guys so much for being here. This is

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Speaker 5: truly a treat. I'm so excited to talk to you.

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Speaker 5: There's so much to get into. I finished your book

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Speaker 5: today and wow, what an amazing story and so many

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Speaker 5: just incredible details. The way you painted the picture, both

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Speaker 5: of you, Yeah, just really gave me a sense of

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Speaker 5: what it felt like to be there, which is something

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Speaker 5: that you don't really get to see very often. I

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Speaker 5: feel like, often, you know, stories focus on the graphic

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Speaker 5: details and stuff. But I really enjoyed reading about your

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Speaker 5: life specifically, So start us at the beginning. So, Diane,

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Speaker 5: you originally grew up in Minnesota. Your dad was an

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Speaker 5: artist who was sort of obsessed with this like California

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Speaker 5: lifestyle and the counterculture movement that was happening. Your family

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Speaker 5: moves to Los Angeles, and that's when your life kind

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Speaker 5: of begins to change.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about.

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Speaker 5: How your parents started doing LSD and the first time

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Speaker 5: that you took LSD my.

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Speaker 2: Mom actually got high on marijuana with the couple down

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Speaker 2: the street in Santa Monica. My dad was obviously ripe

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Speaker 2: to try it as well, so they tried it, and

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Speaker 2: I remember, you know, lots of laughing, and you know,

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Speaker 2: they it seemed like it was a good thing for them.

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Speaker 2: I smoked some marijuana with my dad one day, and

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Speaker 2: then he really got into Timothy Larry's whole rap about

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Speaker 2: this epiphany, you know, this new world. You know, it

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Speaker 2: was this alternative kind of reality that Ellis was like

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Speaker 2: a mind opener to, you know, some truths that he

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Speaker 2: had been looking for. And so the first trip I took,

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Speaker 2: I took with my two best friends in my living

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Speaker 2: room and we read Timothy Larry's Tibetan Book of the Dead.

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Speaker 6: And I just want to interject a lot of people

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Speaker 6: focus on that point in the book where you know, Diane,

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Speaker 6: I think you must have been what thirteen is now

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Speaker 6: taking LSD and her father's in the other room. He

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Speaker 6: knows it's happening, and they consider it in the context

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Speaker 6: of today, right, So if you're looking at it from

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Speaker 6: the context of that time frame, which we tried to create,

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Speaker 6: that whole, the feeling, the time, the place, it was

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Speaker 6: very different because the purpose of the psychedelic movement was

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Speaker 6: to expand your mind, to change the world and to

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Speaker 6: make it a better place. And so for her her parents,

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Speaker 6: I mean, at least presumably it was like a sacrament.

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Speaker 6: They were really thinking was going to be good for her.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 5: It wasn't like handing her heroine and being like, go

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Speaker 5: get addicted to this now, child.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally different, very different.

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Speaker 2: It was.

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Speaker 6: In fact, Lola, you make a very good point. In

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Speaker 6: today's world, we would perceive that act as tantamount to

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Speaker 6: giving your child heroin. But that's not what the times

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Speaker 6: were like at that time. It was tune in, turn on,

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Speaker 6: drop out, and it wasn't people using drugs. Yeah, some

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Speaker 6: people were psychedelic movie for use exactly. It wasn't about

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Speaker 6: that like a drink and a beer or you know, right,

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Speaker 6: it was about mind expansion.

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Speaker 4: What I found fascinating about it all is in the

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Speaker 4: beginning of the book just how completely different your life

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Speaker 4: was from anything like that. You know, you and your

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Speaker 4: mom are like on the sewing machine and cooking, and

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Speaker 4: suddenly it's this entirely different world. And I just can't

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Speaker 4: even imagine what that must have felt like.

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Speaker 2: I know, I have to give my mom a lot

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Speaker 2: of credit. I mean, she really trusted my dad and

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Speaker 2: she trusted God. I mean, she really felt like she

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Speaker 2: had seen an angel at the end of her bed,

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Speaker 2: you know, telling her everything was going to be okay.

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Speaker 2: When we were planning this dropping out because you know,

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Speaker 2: we've had a big yard sale and sold everything, and

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Speaker 2: my dad had been converting a bread truck, which is

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Speaker 2: like a step van, you know, like a FedEx step

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Speaker 2: van that you see.

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Speaker 1: Now, can you explain what dropping out means?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Back then, dropping out meant that you gave up

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Speaker 2: pretty much, gave up all your worldly possessions and you know,

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Speaker 2: just lived on a day to day basis, you know,

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Speaker 2: trusting God basically for your food and clothing. And you know,

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Speaker 2: at least in my parents' mind, that's what they were

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Speaker 2: aiming for. My dad was a big opponent of non materialism.

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Speaker 6: Because it was anti establishment. So many social changes were

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Speaker 6: happening during those years, during the late sixties, middle to

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Speaker 6: late sixties, culminating of course in nineteen sixty nine with

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Speaker 6: the crimes. But at that time, everybody, it was the

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Speaker 6: Flower Children. They were all gathering at hate Ashbury because

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Speaker 6: that's what the LSD was doing. It was creating this

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Speaker 6: sense of connecting with one another, and so they were

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Speaker 6: just letting life come and they were getting out of

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Speaker 6: the establishment, which.

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Speaker 3: Is awesome, like LSD. I love LSD.

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Speaker 1: It's great, it's awesome.

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Speaker 3: Like what, Yeah, you know, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to take it. I don't want to

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Speaker 2: do it.

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Speaker 3: There's a line.

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Speaker 6: But yeah, but that was you know, people again, you

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Speaker 6: can't look at it through the lens of twenty twenty one. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: you have to look at it as what social changes

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Speaker 6: were happening right before the sixties and the changing tide.

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Speaker 6: You had a very repressed post war society in the fifties.

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Speaker 6: I have an imprint in my publishing company of TV Classics,

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Speaker 6: and I watch the old shows. You know, her mother

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Speaker 6: and Diane. They were like the role of women and

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Speaker 6: they were doing the women stuff and everything was changing.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 5: The descriptions of being in Los Angeles in the sixties

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Speaker 5: sound so exciting. I mean, you're going to these love ins,

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Speaker 5: You're seeing the Beatles at Dodger Stadium, You're hanging out

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Speaker 5: in Laurel Canyon with all the hippies, and everyone's like

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Speaker 5: happy and loving, and at least on the surface, it's

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Speaker 5: like you're living this communal lifestyle in these various forums

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Speaker 5: before you ever meet Charles Manson. So like the people

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Speaker 5: coming over and living at your house and you know

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Speaker 5: you're used to no situation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, exactly. My dad got involved with the Oracle.

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Speaker 2: They a group of them wanted to start the newspaper

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Speaker 2: that was successful in San Francisco in Los Angeles, and

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Speaker 2: he was an artist and he got he started doing

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Speaker 2: those day glow posters, Oh fun, the day glow the

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Speaker 2: neon psychedelic posters, and so he was doing that for them,

301
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Speaker 2: and he was, you know, in their art department. And

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Speaker 2: then they lost their lease or whatever at their house,

303
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Speaker 2: and so a bunch of them moved in with us,

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Speaker 2: and then the paper kind of dwindled. And it was

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Speaker 2: through the oracle that my dad and a couple of

306
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Speaker 2: the other guys decided, Hey, let's you know, go on

307
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Speaker 2: the road. Let's drop out, right, And so they bought

308
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Speaker 2: these bread trucks and started converting them into like a camper.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 6: And just to see how exciting that sounds to you

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Speaker 6: as a young person in today's world, everything was beautiful

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Speaker 6: until it was cars. Was what happened to you when

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Speaker 6: you went with that guy to San Francisco.

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Speaker 2: Well, a lot of water had gone under the bridge

315
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Speaker 2: at that point. But my parents were basically arguing about

316
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Speaker 2: what we were just talking about the role of a woman,

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Speaker 2: the role of a man. It was changing, right, and

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Speaker 2: they weren't arguing in a mean way, but they were

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Speaker 2: just philosophically discussing it, you know, and it did kind

320
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Speaker 2: of overlap into you know, what are the responsibility? My

321
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Speaker 2: dad was always trying to get my mom to come

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Speaker 2: and sit on the couch with him and read and

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Speaker 2: listen to Alan Ginsburg and you know, all these enlightened

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Speaker 2: you know, Autust Huxley, all these enlightened people. But she

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Speaker 2: had she was a domestic at heart, you know, she

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Speaker 2: liked keeping a nice house and you know, cooking, providing

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Speaker 2: for her family. She had three children, right, I was

328
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Speaker 2: the oldest. Anyway. At one point we had separated and

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Speaker 2: they had given me a note, you know, basically giving

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Speaker 2: me emancipation as a miner to live with this couple.

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Speaker 2: And then they went to the Grand Canyon and then

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Speaker 2: they came back and they were going to go to

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Speaker 2: Big Sir, and they said, hey, you know, they came

334
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Speaker 2: by and said, you want to go with us, and

335
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Speaker 2: it was like, yeah, So I went to Big Sir

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Speaker 2: with them. And it was there at Essalon that I

337
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Speaker 2: met this man, I don't know, like thirteen years older

338
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Speaker 2: than me, and when you're only fourteen, that's it's considerable,

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Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, And he was going to go to

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Speaker 2: San Francisco, and you know, he asked me to go

341
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Speaker 2: with him, and I said, sure, Yeah, I wanted to

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Speaker 2: go to San Francisco. By that point, I'd met enough

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Speaker 2: people that you know, felt that San Francisco Haye Ashbury

344
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Speaker 2: area was the scene, you know, that was the place

345
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Speaker 2: to go. And so I went with him and he

346
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Speaker 2: ended up being a drug dealer and left me in

347
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Speaker 2: his house for you know, basically two weeks on my own,

348
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Speaker 2: and I ended up getting really sick, and when he

349
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Speaker 2: came back, he took me back to Big sur and

350
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,760
Speaker 2: they nursed me back to health. And then I basically

351
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,919
Speaker 2: escaped because they lived behind locked gates and they didn't

352
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Speaker 2: think I was ready to leave, and so but I

353
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Speaker 2: was ready to leave, and so I hopped the fence

354
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Speaker 2: and stuck out my thumb and miraculously got a ride

355
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Speaker 2: for like three miles by probably some lecherous old man,

356
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Speaker 2: and I wasn't cooperating, so he dropped me off and

357
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,480
Speaker 2: then I stick my thumb out again and I got

358
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Speaker 2: this incredible you know, I got these three angel women

359
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Speaker 2: in a white Cadillac picked me up and they wanted

360
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Speaker 2: to go to Hollywood and they wanted to meet Dean

361
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Speaker 2: Martin and one of the Gallons. They were from New Zealand,

362
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Speaker 2: as ill And anyway, so I knew the way to Hollywood.

363
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Speaker 2: I knew enough, you know, basically Pacific Coast Highway. I

364
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,400
Speaker 2: knew some people there. I got him to the Sunset

365
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Speaker 2: Strip and they dropped me off there, and then I

366
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Speaker 2: went to visit a you know, a person or I

367
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Speaker 2: knew somebody that knew somebody I was looking for, you know,

368
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Speaker 2: a friend of mine and my parents, you know, like,

369
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Speaker 2: where are they? Because they they weren't you know, I

370
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Speaker 2: didn't know where they went.

371
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Speaker 6: I left, I left them, and sir, they weren't.

372
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Speaker 2: It when I went back three weeks later. Wow. And

373
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Speaker 2: so then it turned out they were at the hog Farm,

374
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,800
Speaker 2: so that I ended up at the hog Farm. You know,

375
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,119
Speaker 2: another iconic commune back then. It was Hugh Romney and

376
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Speaker 2: Bonnie Geena his wife, were kind of the leaders, and

377
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,719
Speaker 2: you know they later Hugh Romney later became Wavy Gravy,

378
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,720
Speaker 2: you know, of Woodstock fame, and they weren't too happy

379
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,560
Speaker 2: with me showing up. My parents were happy to see me,

380
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,199
Speaker 2: but you know, the community below wasn't too happy with

381
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Speaker 2: this commune living on this hill, and so they had

382
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Speaker 2: posted guards, you know, to not let it to go

383
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,480
Speaker 2: up there. And so here I am, you know, this underage,

384
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:08,200
Speaker 2: sexually active girl. So they had this little talk with

385
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,040
Speaker 2: me that they weren't comfortable with my being there because

386
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 2: I was jailbait you know for some of the young

387
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 2: musicians and the young men coming up to the farm,

388
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:18,480
Speaker 2: which they called it.

389
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,480
Speaker 5: Right, it's the girl's fault when an age and appropriate

390
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:22,760
Speaker 5: man and wants to have sex with her.

391
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Speaker 1: You must kick the girl out, not the men.

392
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Speaker 6: Sorry, go on, right, right, So, and we appreciate your

393
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 6: perspective on that because it was very true the women

394
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,919
Speaker 6: it was it was always going to be her fault

395
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,800
Speaker 6: because she was an underage, you know what. It was

396
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 6: supposedly the sexual revolution, but that was so one sided, right,

397
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:46,600
Speaker 6: that's my opinion.

398
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,119
Speaker 2: I mean, one of Charlie's things was always you know,

399
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,000
Speaker 2: you get rid of your inhibitions. So in other words,

400
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,000
Speaker 2: spread your legs far and wide and do my bidding right,

401
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 2: and if you don't, oh, it's your hang up. It's

402
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 2: your hang up.

403
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 1: That's so.

404
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,320
Speaker 5: I just can't imagine how crazy that must have made

405
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,680
Speaker 5: you feel, because free love everyone's doing. If like, if

406
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,120
Speaker 5: I'm not participating in this movement, or I don't feel

407
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,919
Speaker 5: comfortable with the sexual revolution, like what's wrong with me

408
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,399
Speaker 5: that I have personal boundaries?

409
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:19,639
Speaker 2: You know?

410
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 5: I just can't imagine how difficult it must have been

411
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:22,440
Speaker 5: at that time.

412
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:23,919
Speaker 6: Oh there were no boundaries.

413
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:25,920
Speaker 2: That wasn't even on our radar.

414
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:32,439
Speaker 6: Then this is your generations right right, benefit of boundaries

415
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:33,600
Speaker 6: right right?

416
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,639
Speaker 2: Part of the whole mee too thing. I mean, like,

417
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 2: you know, people magazine did this three page spread on

418
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,160
Speaker 2: me and right when the book came out, it came

419
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,400
Speaker 2: out in the same issue where Harvey Weinstein and all

420
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,679
Speaker 2: his accusers were on the front page, right, and I

421
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,480
Speaker 2: was like this little one by two inch blurb on

422
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 2: the front page. But it really was hand in glove

423
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: with the whole me Too movement because I was coming

424
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:07,359
Speaker 2: out of my shame of being associated with what with

425
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: being taken advantage of? Right, you know, It's like I

426
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 2: was the one that had the shame. I was the

427
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 2: one that didn't want to be associated and I mean

428
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 2: I still really don't, but it was like, that's what

429
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 2: these women were coming up against, you know, is that hey,

430
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 2: wait a minute, I was taken advantage of, right, right?

431
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 2: They you know, the casting couch thing, yes, is very

432
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 2: you know, we all knew that it was true, but

433
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 2: we just didn't realize the consequences and what it was

434
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,159
Speaker 2: really doing. That it was the man that was in

435
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 2: charge of all of that, right you know. And Charlie.

436
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 2: Charlie wanted to be a pimp, you know. He he

437
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 2: learned how to be a pimp when he was in

438
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 2: jail so that he could come out and he could

439
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 2: control women.

440
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 1: I learned that from your book.

441
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 5: That's such an interesting fact that he, like, he's just

442
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 5: straight up used those tactics very intentionally.

443
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 2: And we all were broken in some fashion or other.

444
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 1: Well vulnerable, Yeah.

445
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 2: Had been abused or you know, had had been kicked

446
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 2: out of our family. I mean I was sort of

447
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,719
Speaker 2: really kicked out of my family. I think that Bonnie,

448
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 2: Jean and Hugh had a couple of friends come up

449
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 2: and kind of very nicely asked me would I like

450
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,360
Speaker 2: to come and live with them? You know, and then

451
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 2: they're the ones that introduced me to Charlette.

452
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 5: I mean, we don't have to dwell on this part

453
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,439
Speaker 5: at all, but you did experience so much abuse and

454
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 5: so many inappropriate relationships already by the time that you

455
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 5: were fourteen, and reading about that couple made me really angry.

456
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 5: I don't I can't imagine how you must have felt

457
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,360
Speaker 5: in your life. But we'll get into that in a minute.

458
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 5: But yeah, what a vulnerable position to be in.

459
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: And fourteen is so young. It is so young.

460
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 6: I'll tell you something, Lola. When I started working with Diane,

461
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 6: I didn't know what to expect. I was just thrilled

462
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 6: and we connected and we started taking this journey together.

463
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 6: I would be interviewing her and getting the story. And

464
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 6: what was so shocking is that during the first interview,

465
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 6: Diane was very kind of flat affect and would just

466
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 6: tell you as if she was one place and her

467
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 6: body was somewhere else. And then she told the story

468
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 6: that people would have to read the book, but there's

469
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 6: a very vivid scene of her childhood, and she said,

470
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 6: she told me that particular story and then just glossed

471
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 6: over it. And I said, wait, wait, wait, back up.

472
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 6: Do you realize what happened to you? And there was

473
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 6: a lack of awareness and it wasn't really until we

474
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 6: took the whole journey together where Diane was able to

475
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 6: reflect back and say, you know, I was a victim, right,

476
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 6: So there wasn't awareness of inappropriate relationships and even how

477
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 6: Manson treated her. There was a lot of brainwashing.

478
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

479
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 5: Yes, so you're at the hog Farm, Wavy Gravy essentially

480
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 5: kicks you out.

481
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: Tell us what happens next.

482
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 2: Then this other couple, and I think that they were

483
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 2: friends of Hugh and Bonnie Jean showed up and invited

484
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: me to come and stay with them. And they didn't

485
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,360
Speaker 2: live at the hog Farm, and so it's like, yeah,

486
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: because I didn't feel welcome, they didn't kick me out.

487
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 2: They said I could stay there, but they wanted me

488
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 2: to sleep in the attic, right, And I just didn't

489
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 2: feel welcome. And my parents, you know, had already given

490
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,959
Speaker 2: me emancipation, and I'd been separated from them for you know,

491
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 2: a month or so, and they didn't unfold me. Like

492
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 2: I said, they were struggling with their new roles as

493
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 2: men and women, and the kind of consensus there was

494
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 2: it takes a village, which I think Hillary Clinton really

495
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 2: coined that phrase. But that was the idea, is that

496
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 2: the adults in the commune kind of collectively looked over

497
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 2: and after all the children.

498
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 6: Or not or not right or not.

499
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 2: But I mean that was the idea.

500
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 5: Until you become of jailbait age and then and then

501
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 5: you're up or then you're in the attic, right.

502
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 2: And so anyway, so I went with this other couple,

503
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 2: and but I didn't enjoy being with them. They shot

504
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 2: speed and I wasn't interested in doing anything besides smoking

505
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 2: some marijuana and taking melosty, right, And so they invited

506
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 2: me to come along with them to this to hey,

507
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 2: meet this groovy guy and his girls. Basically was the invitation,

508
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 2: and so I went with them. And I walked in

509
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 2: and it was this house that I already lived in

510
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: with other people, so I knew the house that I'd

511
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 2: never heard of. Charlie and the girls and Panga right, yeah,

512
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 2: at the at the base of the canyon, just in

513
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 2: this little it's now like a park. It's like a

514
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 2: preserve or a reserve type part. Anyway, I walked in

515
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 2: and I think it was Lynette that came up and went, Diane,

516
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 2: you know, Charlie, Diane's here.

517
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: It's like what you're like? Who are you right?

518
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 2: How do you know me? It was magical and flabbergasting

519
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 2: all at the same time. And Charlie got up from

520
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 2: the circle and came and offered me a drink of

521
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: his root beer and embraced me and you know, welcome, hey,

522
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 2: come and join us in the circle, which was you know,

523
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 2: what we did most of the time, especially in the evening.

524
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 2: We'd gather in a circle and Charlie would plays guitar

525
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 2: and play sing his songs and we would sing along.

526
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 6: Wow.

527
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 5: So and Lynette is squeaky correct, yeah, yeah, okay, this

528
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 5: redhead girl comes up and is like so excited to

529
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 5: meet you and you don't know who she is, but

530
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 5: you're suddenly welcomed by this whole group of strangers. What

531
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 5: was your first impression of Charlie, Like? What did he

532
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 5: seem like?

533
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: What was the vibe?

534
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,959
Speaker 2: Fun? Totally, you know, playful. He wasn't an imposing figure

535
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: at all. He's a short little guy, you know, or

536
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 2: was a short little man, and you know, with curly hair.

537
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 2: And really, I think I think we've analyzed this. I

538
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,360
Speaker 2: think he was like thirty three. Well, my youngest son

539
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: is thirty one, and I certainly don't think of him

540
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: as a lecherous old man, you know, and my oldest

541
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 2: son is thirty seven. But even when he was thirty three,

542
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: I mean, it was like, oh, you know, handsome.

543
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 6: And also you need to understand there was an archetype

544
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 6: of the long haired guitar playing guru type person at

545
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 6: that time, and he would have fit into every group

546
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 6: I knew, even though I was just younger enough that

547
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 6: I missed some of that early mid sixties. But everybody,

548
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 6: you know, if you were at a party at your

549
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 6: friend's house and somebody took out a guitar and they

550
00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 6: had long hair, you were all enamored. I mean the

551
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 6: guy with the guitar. That's why they played the guitar right,

552
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 6: they could get the girls.

553
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: At that time.

554
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 6: He did not look or behave in ways that were

555
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 6: so outrageous. He was also so love bombing with each

556
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 6: of the women that even if he told them, hey,

557
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 6: I just got out of jail, it was like he

558
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 6: gas lit them in a way that made them feel

559
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 6: sorry for him. And all the women wanted to take

560
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 6: care of him and nurture him. And it wasn't like

561
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 6: today we might say, oh, you just got out of

562
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 6: a stint in jail and say well, maybe I shouldn't

563
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 6: hang out with you. It wasn't like that at all.

564
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 2: And it was like for forgery.

565
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 6: Forgery, and see how they can say now even today, Oh,

566
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 6: it wasn't that big a deal. He just was forging.

567
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 6: You know why he wasn't He was a perfectly nice psychopath.

568
00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 2: I mean.

569
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 5: No, when I could see how if you're already rebelling

570
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 5: against the system and that's like part of your whole idea,

571
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 5: your worldview, then that would be okay.

572
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, he was perfect for it. And I'm sure he

573
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 6: was very sexy and he had trained himself to appeal

574
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 6: to women, and from my research because Diane, when we

575
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 6: wrote the book, it was Diane's memories. We did nothing

576
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 6: to pollute that. Diane hadn't seen movies. She maybe read

577
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 6: Helter Skelter back when it came out in the day,

578
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 6: but she hadn't seen all the videos and interviews. So

579
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 6: I was doing the research on the side. I read

580
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 6: one account at one point one of his girlfriends basically

581
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 6: said you're a terrible lover, and she bought him how

582
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 6: to please the women. And then he went back into

583
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 6: jail and learned at the feet of the pimps how

584
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 6: to control women. So he was training himself right.

585
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 5: And one of the things I saw on the book

586
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 5: was that one of the things the pimps taught him

587
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 5: was to make the women feel really special and make

588
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 5: them feel really loved, which obviously came very much into

589
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 5: play later on Diane.

590
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 6: I'm sure you can attest to that he had that dance.

591
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a very special lover. I mean he

592
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 2: often would start with this, just this give and take

593
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 2: of your hands, you know, standing in front of each other.

594
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: You know, it was a dance. It was sweet.

595
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 6: It was to me, it was it was I remember

596
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 6: this the memory of him in the early early dance.

597
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:40,479
Speaker 2: Yeah.

598
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 5: Right, you're putting your hands together, like touching hands and

599
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 5: moving them around.

600
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: Is that kind of like?

601
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? And it was just like this give and take,

602
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: you know. It was it was like he was leading, right,

603
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: he was leading, but not forcefully. I mean it was

604
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: it was a dance. It was far play, but it

605
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: was very sweet.

606
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: You know, and it was very gentle intimate. It seems

607
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: very intimate.

608
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, he really got under under their skin.

609
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. It wasn't a wam bam, thank you ma'am.

610
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 6: You know, right, feel like they were the only one

611
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 6: in his life.

612
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 5: So you've spent this wonderful night with him, how do

613
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 5: you end up actually coming to stay with them?

614
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 2: I kind of went back and forth for a few weeks.

615
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: They were planning this bus trip to New Mexico and Arizona,

616
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 2: and it was like right after Thanksgiving, and I didn't

617
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 2: want to be left behind. So the gentleman that had

618
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,239
Speaker 2: introduced me to Charlie Richard getting you know, after this

619
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: back and forth for a couple of weeks, he said,

620
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 2: you know, I don't I get a bad vibe. You know,

621
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: I don't think you should go with them, but I

622
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 2: didn't want to be left behind it. I didn't, you know,

623
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 2: where am I going to go? I didn't want to

624
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: go live with Richard and the leg and I didn't

625
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: want to go back to the I didn't feel welcome

626
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 2: at the hog Farm, and my parents weren't really paving

627
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 2: the way for me, you know, because they'd emancipated me,

628
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 2: and I was on my own, and I was the

629
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: oldest of the family, and I had always been very

630
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 2: capable and very an a student, and I'd always been

631
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 2: very independent and capable. Right, it's a new world. So

632
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 2: anyway that that's what happened. So I went with them.

633
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: Can you tell us real quick why they recognized you?

634
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 2: Well, it turned out that Charlie had gone up to

635
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 2: the hog Farm while I was in San Francisco. And

636
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 2: of course, you know, you've got two leaders, you know,

637
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: You've got you around me and you've got Charlie, two egos.

638
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: You know, it was like there there wasn't like a

639
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 2: mutual and they didn't you admire region And they called

640
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 2: him black Bus Charlie, but my.

641
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: Mom because he had a bus that was black.

642
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, my mom.

643
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: Loved the girls, and they all went on a bus trip,

644
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 2: went on a bus trip out to the desert looking

645
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:08,479
Speaker 2: for gas tanks. Charlie was obsessed with gasoline. He was always, yeah,

646
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: he always was looking for gas tanks that he was

647
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 2: going to weld to the bottom of the bus so

648
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 2: that he could have this you know, unlimited or you know,

649
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 2: as much of an unlimited supply of gas as possible.

650
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 2: And then as he like descended into madness, he often

651
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 2: talked about digging this huge pit and hijacking a gas

652
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 2: tanker and burying it in the desert so that we

653
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 2: would have Yeah. No, I mean that was one of

654
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 2: his crazy illusions or delusions.

655
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 6: He even mentioned it as an aside comment in the

656
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,240
Speaker 6: transcripts of the trial where and people didn't really catch

657
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 6: it what he was talking about. But because I was

658
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 6: so familiar with Diane's story, and then I also did

659
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 6: the book Inside the Mansengery and it examined all of

660
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 6: the transcripts and makes.

661
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 2: Us oh, it showed up again.

662
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 6: It does where he says, well, I just want to

663
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 6: go back to the desert and look for gasoline and whatever.

664
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: Oh what an interesting detail. Yeah, it's fascinating.

665
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 6: And it's not something people would notice if you didn't

666
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 6: understand his obsession, and it was all about going off

667
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 6: the grid.

668
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: Really, ultimately it always is, isn't it.

669
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 6: Yeah, because my parents.

670
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 2: Had had this encounter with him, and I was in

671
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: San Francisco and they talked about they were going to

672
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 2: go to San Francisco. Charlie and the girls, We're going

673
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: to go to San Francisco. My mom gave them my picture.

674
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: They gave them a photo of me, and you're like, hey,

675
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: when you're in San Francisco, look for this girl. You know,

676
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 2: it's my daughter, you know. And whether you know it's

677
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 2: I don't know if she said bring her back, you know,

678
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: or just you know, see how she's doing. I'm sure

679
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: she was worried about me. I mean, you know, I

680
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: know she was worried about me. So it was like,

681
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 2: either bring her back or you know, bring me a

682
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: report or something, right, and so, but I didn't know that.

683
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 2: I didn't have that conversation with my mom before I

684
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: met Charlie and the girls, and so when I walked in, see,

685
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 2: they already knew me.

686
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 6: The magic like magic Charlie, which of course he used

687
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 6: all of his seeming miracles to continue to create the

688
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 6: illusion that kept his people loyal Youah.

689
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh.

690
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 5: I was so fascinated by the postulating, the term postulating

691
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 5: and what that meant for you guys.

692
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: I mean, can you explain what that is?

693
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 2: Well? His idea of postulating was just like I mean,

694
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 2: I think that there was another, you know, leader of

695
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 2: something that talked about positive thinking. So think about something

696
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 2: positively and it will come to you. Well, that's what

697
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 2: postulating was. So it was like if we needed money,

698
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: if we needed clothes, if we needed food, if we

699
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 2: needed gas, you know, we would think possis kind of

700
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 2: like a meditation, and I mean it's it's it's like

701
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 2: a prayer, but it wasn't called a prayer, right, you know.

702
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 2: It was it was just sending out into the universe

703
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: your needs and it was kind of suspect in some ways,

704
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,720
Speaker 2: but I mean later when I thought about it as

705
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 2: a mature adult, but back then we just thought it

706
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: was like, Wow, he's really powerful.

707
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 5: Because your needs were getting met because you would he

708
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 5: would always get right.

709
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 2: And I'm sure that he manipulated some of that.

710
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sure. Yeah.

711
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 6: That was also how people were thinking. And LSD would

712
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 6: expand your idea, your consciousness and this sense of connectedness

713
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 6: to all everything, the rocks, the universe, right, and it

714
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 6: was like they were creating this this manifestation of anything

715
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 6: that they need. And that's also the idea of going off,

716
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 6: going away from the establishment and living off the land

717
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 6: and everybody loves each other, and you know, it was

718
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 6: that was the mindset.

719
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 3: How often was he on LSD.

720
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 2: We took Honosta pretty frequently, I think that. But he

721
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: had a couple of bad trips. I remember there was

722
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: one really chaotic trip. We had decorated the back ranch

723
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 2: house with tapestries, you know, on the walls and the ceiling,

724
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:35,760
Speaker 2: you know, the Indian tapestries, and you know, mattresses, and

725
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: it was you know, we were gonna have had a

726
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 2: special guest musician who played the c tar. That's all

727
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 2: I remember is we took the LSD. We're all ready

728
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 2: I think it was Paul Watkins that was on the

729
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 2: cetar and he plucked one string and it just was

730
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: like and I was gone. I mean, I like followed

731
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 2: that note into.

732
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 6: Infinity and not encouraging the use of drugs a little

733
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 6: too fun.

734
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 2: I don't remember anything till I woke up in the

735
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: morning and the place was a shambles well.

736
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 6: And there's another thing that Diane remembered and also was

737
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 6: confirmed through other research, is that it's possible that some

738
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 6: of the reason that Manson ultimately did descend into madness

739
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 6: was he did have a really bad trip. It was

740
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 6: a messionic trip where he claims to have relived the crucifixion.

741
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 6: And also, which is not uncommon, Alan Ginsberg, when he

742
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 6: took his LSD trip suddenly became messionic. So the whole

743
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 6: generation of people were following someone who basically had a

744
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 6: psychotic break, right, and so you think of it that way,

745
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 6: and the followers or the family they were taking LSD.

746
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 6: He was administering it regularly, but he didn't always take it.

747
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 2: Or he didn't take as much, right, so control especially

748
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 2: after that trip, and then there had been I mean

749
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 2: the trip, I think the trip where he experienced the

750
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:29,439
Speaker 2: crucifixion that he was the messiah on across took place

751
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 2: in San Francisco. But then he I remember a trip

752
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: when we were at the Spiral Staircase house where he

753
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:37,720
Speaker 2: re enacted.

754
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 7: That subconscious you know, and on LSD, you know, you

755
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 7: see these light streams from your hands and just an ore.

756
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 2: And so it's you know, it's very you see lots

757
00:40:52,840 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 2: of light reflected and so with any So he had

758
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,760
Speaker 2: us convinced, you know that we were seeing like a stigmata.

759
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: I'm sure that he used that.

760
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 5: Can you paint a picture of just what life was

761
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 5: like at first once you're living with them, Like, what

762
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 5: are you doing every day?

763
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 2: Well, you know, everybody needs to eat and go to

764
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 2: the bathroom and shower, and so a lot of you know,

765
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 2: your life is revolves around, you know, procuring and taking

766
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: care of those needs. So cooking, you know, we did

767
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 2: cooking and cleaning, and we made love and in the

768
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 2: evening we'd get in the circle and sing songs and

769
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 2: he'd give us his little talk tos, which you know,

770
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 2: we're often about getting rid of your inhibitions and just

771
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: the whole new alternative culture kind of mindset. So it

772
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: wasn't it wasn't a total break from what I'd kind

773
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 2: of heard before, but it had just taken on, you know,

774
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 2: a new life. And as we moved along, he became

775
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 2: more protective. You know, he discouraged outside relationships unless I mean,

776
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 2: if he were going to bring somebody into the family.

777
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 5: But he was very selective, was he very selective about

778
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 5: the women as well, or just mostly selective about the men.

779
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 2: I think mostly the guys, yeah, but but I think

780
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 2: the girls, you know, the girls too. I mean, he

781
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 2: wanted he wanted them all to be beautiful, you know,

782
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 2: because as things moved forward, you know, and we got

783
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 2: closer to going to the desert, and once we, you know,

784
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 2: were introduced to the desert place, he'd always had been

785
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 2: talking about this black white race war. And it wasn't

786
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 2: until the white album came out, but it got nicknamed,

787
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 2: you know, Helter Skelter. But the whole idea he wanted beautiful.

788
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 2: He wanted us to make beautiful children and we populate

789
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 2: the world, you know, right after the apocalypse, because that's

790
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: basically what it was going to be, you know, and

791
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 2: then the black man wasn't going to be able to

792
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 2: handle it, and then he was, they were going to

793
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 2: ask for Charlie's help, you right. I don't know, I mean,

794
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 2: it's just like when I talk about it, I just

795
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 2: I think, you know, oh my gosh.

796
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 3: He sprinkled a little bit of everything in there.

797
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: Yeah he did. And I think he I'm a special

798
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 2: teacher or I'm a retired special education teacher specialized in autism,

799
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 2: and you can get stuck, you know, you can get

800
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 2: stuck in these mindsets. And I think that's kind of

801
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 2: what happened to him. You know, interesting, whether he was

802
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:35,760
Speaker 2: on the spectrum or not, it's.

803
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 4: Interesting that was like gasoline sounds like his special interest

804
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:39,720
Speaker 4: or something.

805
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 3: You know.

806
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, he did have these fixations.

807
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 2: Have these elevators, tractors, dinosaurs, whatever, you know. I mean,

808
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 2: they get fixated on.

809
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 3: Something and then that brain on LSD all the time. Yeah.

810
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 2: Right, So but he I think he had an auditory Uh,

811
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: he was kind of a savant auditorially, which to me

812
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 2: that meant that to me, what that meant was kids

813
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: with autism. I mean they can recite whole movies, so

814
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: stuff that he would hear, and he wasn't a good reader.

815
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 2: Lynette would have to read stuff for him. But I

816
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 2: think auditorily, I mean, he was as a young person

817
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 2: exposed to all kinds of sermons and then scientology and

818
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 2: I mean and in jail music and so I think

819
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 2: that so he had all this auditory input that I

820
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:40,919
Speaker 2: think to just regurgitation, yes, and he would mix it up,

821
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 2: you know, mirror.

822
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 3: Whatever the person he was talking to. Need probably little snippets.

823
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 2: I think the little snippets of what he'd heard formed

824
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: his life reality on reality. He was gifted in that,

825
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 2: you know. And even with music, you know, he didn't

826
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 2: read music, you know, it was all auditory. So I

827
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 2: think he had this kind of almost a savant ability

828
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 2: to remember things auditorily.

829
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 5: That makes total sense. What was your relationship with him?

830
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,720
Speaker 5: Like he'd be very kind obviously, but then he would

831
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 5: suddenly hit you right and like when you weren't expecting

832
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 5: it or like, can you just describe that dynamic.

833
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: A little bit?

834
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that as time went on and he,

835
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 2: you know, he started having more control and like a

836
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 2: bigger delusion or you know, idea of where we were

837
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 2: going or where he wanted us to go as a family,

838
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 2: and I just I don't think I was totally on board,

839
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 2: which I thank god, I thank god that I wasn't right.

840
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 2: And recently I kind of got reacquainted with Catherine Chaer Gypsy,

841
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 2: and she's ten years older than me. She was kind

842
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 2: of tasked with watching out for me or watching over

843
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:06,919
Speaker 2: me for Charlie.

844
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: Like keeping an eye on you, keeping an eye on me.

845
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was also watching out for you because of Charlie,

846
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 6: because she saw that he was mistreating you.

847
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 2: But she said that I would, you know, I would,

848
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 2: I would listen that I would lose my focus and

849
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 2: I would just get up and wander off, and you know,

850
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 2: like whatever. So and I think that really it bothered

851
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 2: him and I wasn't setting a good example, and so

852
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 2: he would make an example.

853
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 6: And just think about it. You've got a cult leader.

854
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 1: Right, You weren't submissive enough.

855
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 6: She would roll her eyes and kind of say, Charlie,

856
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 6: that doesn't make sense.

857
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:52,359
Speaker 2: It was very cool to reconnect with somebody that knew

858
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 2: me back then who was older, I mean ten years older.

859
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 2: That's significant, you know. And she had a much wiser,

860
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 2: more worldly view of everything.

861
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: Wow, that's so great that you guys got to connect,

862
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: right right.

863
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 2: I mean, this has been this has been such an

864
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 2: incredible journey since since I wrote the book, and you know,

865
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 2: the different interviews, and it's not just regurgitating what I

866
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 2: wrote in the book. I mean it's like there's been

867
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 2: this whole because now I've read and seen more interviews

868
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: and been in you know, quite a few documentaries and

869
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,439
Speaker 2: seeing other people's tape, and so the whole thing has

870
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 2: really kind of, you know, evolved into a more mature,

871
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 2: deeper understanding of what happened to me and what happened

872
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 2: to him. And you know, it's still kind of hard

873
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,280
Speaker 2: for me to understand how the murders happened.

874
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, but you know what's interesting working with Diane and

875
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,240
Speaker 6: doing so much research and then looking at the bigger

876
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 6: picture of cult behavior of your it helped me understand

877
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 6: how these things can happen. And I went into working

878
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 6: with Diane with the question of how could this happen?

879
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 6: Because these were troubled young women, but they weren't what

880
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 6: you would think as maybe a throwaway or a young criminal,

881
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 6: or you know, they were not. They were from mostly

882
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 6: from affluent homes, intelligent h and people need to understand

883
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 6: that when you have an unequal power relationship, this kind

884
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 6: of brainwashing or ultimate abuse or control can happen in

885
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 6: very It comes in many many forms.

886
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 5: Exactly anyone can be vulnerable, having a vulnerable moment in

887
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,240
Speaker 5: their life where they find a person or a group

888
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 5: that seems to be the answer to their problems and

889
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 5: that it really seems like what you needed at that

890
00:48:58,520 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 5: time in your life.

891
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: Diane was a fan.

892
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:05,280
Speaker 5: Family and voila, Diane, Diane, We've been waiting for you,

893
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 5: like boom, there's a family, you know, especially that age,

894
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,399
Speaker 5: I mean, gosh, yeah, fourteen is so young.

895
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 2: You want to belong. Everybody wants to belong to something,

896
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,399
Speaker 2: and that's how gangs and isis. And you know, all

897
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 2: of these these terrorists, even terrorist groups, you know, they absolutely, yeah,

898
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 2: get get sucked in because they want to be part

899
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 2: of something bigger than themselves and to feel We all

900
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 2: do in some I think in some.

901
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 5: Ways absolutely, I know I do, and yeah, debort to

902
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 5: feel special. Absolutely, I want to feel special.

903
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: I want to belong totally.

904
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 6: Cult leaders may not even start out knowing they are

905
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 6: a cult leader, but what happens is with the progression

906
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 6: of that adulation from any group of people, it will

907
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 6: ultimately lead to having power over others and the mindset ultimately,

908
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 6: you know, just like in a domestic violence situation, the

909
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 6: people become isolated from the outside world. They're the only

910
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 6: information they're receiving is from the leader and the group,

911
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 6: so they're all kind of harvesting the same information and

912
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 6: it becomes a reality. And that's why someone from the

913
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 6: outside can look at the mindset and some of the

914
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 6: things that Diane and the others were believing at the time,

915
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 6: and they were believing it, and to the outside it's

916
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 6: how could you believe that? But when you're on the inside,

917
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 6: it is reality.

918
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: I mean I know that firsthand.

919
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 6: I know you too.

920
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: You know, I'm curious about your relationship with the other girls.

921
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 2: How was that In the beginning. I would say I

922
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 2: was the closest really to Lynette Squeaky Squeaky, Yeah, yeah, Lynette,

923
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:01,479
Speaker 2: and Charlie and I and then Patty. I wasn't ever

924
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 2: really that close to Susan Atkins. But Patty was like

925
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,240
Speaker 2: the mother Earth. I mean she was like the salt

926
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 2: of the earth. I mean she was just so down

927
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 2: to earth, so incredibly down to earth. So I felt

928
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 2: close to her. When Leslie came on the scene, I

929
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 2: didn't feel I just didn't have anything in common with

930
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 2: her other than Charlie or text, you know, because I

931
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 2: never went to high school and so and she was

932
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 2: like homecoming queen or a princess or something. You know,

933
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 2: just totally had no clue. I had no clue what

934
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 2: that was all about. And so to me, she just

935
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 2: seemed like, you know, very shallow and aloof and just

936
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 2: a silly girl. I don't know. I mean, you know,

937
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 2: she wasn't down to earth. You know, she was very flighty,

938
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 2: and Sandy was a prima donna to me. You know,

939
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 2: she was a spoiled, rich girl and you know, who

940
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 2: felt like she'd been abused by her family. She was

941
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 2: kind of manipulative, and she wasn't my best friend.

942
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 5: I mean, I think it's just cool to hear this

943
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 5: perspective because when you hear Manson girls, you picture this

944
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 5: like monolith of the girls with the crosses and they

945
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,320
Speaker 5: are zombies and they're all have the exact same personality.

946
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 1: But no, like everyone was so different from each other.

947
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 2: But I had been you know, I hadn't really been

948
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 2: part of that aspect at all.

949
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 6: Oh, you need to understand that what you saw at

950
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 6: the trial was very much orchestrated from behind the scenes

951
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 6: between Manson Squeaky. There was a lot of manipulation of

952
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 6: the legal system because they had a goal and that

953
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 6: was to get him out, right of course, right, So

954
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 6: there's a whole backstory and a continuation. By that time,

955
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:59,479
Speaker 6: Diane was at Patent State and was being held there

956
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 6: for her safety and for treatment until she would.

957
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 1: Testify, right, And I want to get into that.

958
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 6: I don't mean to jump ahead, but the picture that

959
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 6: people have of these zombie like girls, they were true

960
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 6: believers at that point in Manson and that he was

961
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 6: Man's son and that he was their only saving grace,

962
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 6: that this race war was going to happen and the

963
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 6: only person who could save them would be him, and

964
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 6: they fully believed it, and they were all boiled to him, right.

965
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 2: And I think some of the proof of that, to

966
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:39,760
Speaker 2: me is just how far gone they were in that belief.

967
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 2: Was the fact that when we got arrested for burning

968
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:48,280
Speaker 2: a road grader in Death Valley, it didn't have anything

969
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 2: to do with the murders, but Susan Atkins had a

970
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 2: warnt out and she got transferred to La County jail,

971
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 2: and it was there that she started telling her roommates

972
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:04,439
Speaker 2: about Charlie, right, And I mean did she I think

973
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 2: she really thought that the doors of the jail were

974
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 2: just going to fall off and they were going to

975
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,839
Speaker 2: be free to go to the desert with Charlie. And

976
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 2: she was still like proud of that and trying to

977
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 2: I think, trying to convince these absolutely cellmates about the reality.

978
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 2: And then she started, you know, she believed it so

979
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 2: much that she started to tell them what her part

980
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 2: in these a genious murders. It's like, why would you

981
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 2: do that unless you were.

982
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 1: Totally totally brainwashed.

983
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,879
Speaker 2: Without a doubt brainwashed. And think about it too.

984
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 6: At that time, there were a lot of counter revolutionary groups,

985
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 6: and at the time, before they people understood what had

986
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 6: really happened and why, there were some of the counter

987
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 6: revolutionary group supporting what had happened, thinking that it was

988
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 6: a strike against the establishment, and they actually felt that

989
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:12,800
Speaker 6: the murders were like a revolutionary Yeah, there were horrible

990
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 6: collateral damage, but this was something good for the cause. Wow.

991
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: I didn't know that.

992
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 6: Wow, And up is down. And you have to consider

993
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 6: the times.

994
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 5: I guess I knew that there were lots of domestic

995
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 5: bombings for political purposes, so I guess I could see

996
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 5: how that would make sense. But yeah, I had no

997
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:34,359
Speaker 5: idea anyone interpreted it that way.

998
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 6: I can't think of the particular group, but there were,

999
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 6: you know, radical groups that came out in favor of

1000
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 6: what he did. Now, of course later they didn't necessarily

1001
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 6: support him, but at first they thought that this, you know,

1002
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 6: they were attacking the establishment and making a statement and

1003
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:56,320
Speaker 6: you know, until they realized that it was very crazy.

1004
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, so back to the girls for a second.

1005
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 5: Did you experience any jealousy because you had to share?

1006
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 5: I'm calling him Charlie just because that's what the book

1007
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:10,280
Speaker 5: called him.

1008
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 2: You know, when I think of him, I I don't

1009
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 2: call him Charles Manson. You know, he's Charlie. I remember though,

1010
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 2: thinking at some point that I was in love with

1011
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 2: him and that I wanted him to just take me

1012
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 2: off and marry me. You know, that was in the

1013
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 2: very early state, you know, very early stages, but there

1014
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 2: really wasn't. I mean, we were like, you know, sister

1015
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 2: wives for the most part. I mean, and that's what

1016
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 2: he encouraged, you know. So that was part of the brainwashing,

1017
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 2: is that we were to squelch those feelings of jealousy.

1018
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 2: That wasn't That wasn't okay. You know, you need to

1019
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,839
Speaker 2: share and you know, share a like and he did.

1020
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 2: When you did spa time with just him, he did

1021
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 2: make you feel like you were you know, you were

1022
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,800
Speaker 2: the special one. So and that was part of his training,

1023
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:11,760
Speaker 2: and he pulled it off for the most part.

1024
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 1: How did you get the nickname Snake.

1025
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 2: I actually was responsible probably for giving myself that thing.

1026
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 2: Not that I wanted that nickname, but I had been

1027
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 2: fasting and because Charlie. That was one of Charlie's things too,

1028
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 2: is that we didn't really need food, so, you know,

1029
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 2: and we certainly didn't want to get fat. And so

1030
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 2: I had been on like a lemon and honey fast

1031
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 2: for probably twenty days.

1032
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 6: Holy and Holy. I didn't realize it was that long.

1033
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:42,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, And anyway, and it was a hot summer day

1034
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 2: at the top of you know, Topanga Canyon and talk

1035
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 2: about hallucinating ill and I wasn't really even hallucinating. I just,

1036
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 2: you know, I'm a kid, and I just imagined what

1037
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 2: it would be like slithering through the tall, cool grass

1038
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 2: as a snake, and so I just recat I mean,

1039
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:06,920
Speaker 2: it's just, you know, it wasn't even like something I

1040
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 2: physically saw. It was just something that I got in

1041
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 2: the skin of the snake and what that would be like.

1042
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 2: And I was wanting that, you know, imagery to the

1043
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 2: girls in the kitchen into one of the places that

1044
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 2: we lived in Topanga Canyon, and there from then on,

1045
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 2: I was Snake. Charlie gave everybody nicknames, So I just

1046
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 2: didn't have.

1047
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 1: One yet, right, Yeah, you got to take away your

1048
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: original identity.

1049
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 2: But you know what's interesting I just found this out

1050
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, is that in the Chinese zodiac,

1051
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 2: I was born in the year of the Snake. Come on.

1052
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 6: Three.

1053
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 1: Very good.

1054
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 2: It's humbling to have that nickname snake.

1055
00:58:58,520 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1056
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 5: So you were all dumpster diving, some people were stealing cars,

1057
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 5: you're I mean, I guess you sort of described every

1058
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 5: day It's just everyday life is like getting the things

1059
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 5: done that you need to get done. How did you

1060
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 5: feel when the race work talk stuff began. Did you

1061
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 5: feel uncomfortable with it at all?

1062
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 2: Like?

1063
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 1: What was that like?

1064
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was, you know, it was a little disconcerting.

1065
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 2: I grew up in Minnesota and my father and mom

1066
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 2: had you know, African American friends that would come over

1067
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,720
Speaker 2: for dinner and they were just you know, I didn't

1068
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 2: have prejudice, but in Los Angeles, you know, and then

1069
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:42,919
Speaker 2: the Black Panthers and then you know, and Charlie would

1070
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 2: talk about it, and he'd been hearing about it, you know,

1071
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 2: since he was a little guy in reform school and

1072
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 2: then prison, so this was like, oh, insider information. Kind

1073
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 2: of thing.

1074
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 6: In the context of the times, it sort of overlapped

1075
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 6: the peaceful demonstrations with Martin Luther King and he was

1076
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 6: assassinated in nineteen sixty eight, so you know, it was

1077
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 6: all during that time that at the same time there

1078
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 6: was this undercurrent of activists who were the Black Panthers,

1079
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 6: who were saying, no, let's not do this peacefully, let's

1080
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 6: do you know, let's do this, let's have a revolution,

1081
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 6: and so it all was overlapping. So I think the

1082
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 6: rhetoric was supporting his upside down thinking that this was

1083
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 6: going to happen and us. Another thing that you have

1084
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 6: to consider is that he would take pieces of information

1085
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 6: from many different sources and right down the street literally

1086
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 6: from I mean we drove there when we did our tour,

1087
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 6: right down from Spawn Ranch was oh right, what is

1088
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 6: it like a Fountain of the world world And there

1089
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 6: other cult yes, and their leader he espoused a race war,

1090
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 6: and all of his followers believed in that race war.

1091
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 6: And so again you've got a mishmash Christiana venta thank

1092
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 6: you that was gonna bother me all night, Christian.

1093
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 1: This is another cult leader that, like everybody kind of

1094
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 1: knows or.

1095
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 6: It's well he didn't. He was murdered or bombed, but

1096
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 6: the actual cult housing and the buildings are still there.

1097
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 2: I bet a remnant of them still are part of

1098
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 2: that cult.

1099
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 6: And they went there. Diane went there with Yeah.

1100
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 2: We went. We tried to recruit them, or we wanted

1101
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 2: them to recruit us. I don't know, we want we

1102
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 2: tried to combine forces with them.

1103
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:53,280
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, who that could have made it way worse. Yeah.

1104
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 2: Yes, they didn't like Charlie. No.

1105
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 5: Oh, they were like opposing cult leaders.

1106
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 6: Exactly, well, and their cult leader was dead but they

1107
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 6: were still loyal to him.

1108
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 5: Oh so they were dead, and Charlie was like, let

1109
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 5: me go get these people who need a new leader.

1110
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 5: Ahh like making over an ant hill or something fast fascinating.

1111
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 5: And we will leave it there for now. Stay tuned

1112
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 5: for next week. There is so much more to get into, Megan. Yes, say,

1113
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 5: you're fourteen, Los Angeles sixties, pretty unstable childhood, lots of

1114
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 5: moving around, lots of communes, lots of predatory men coming

1115
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:32,280
Speaker 5: after you.

1116
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 1: Yep, what do you think would you?

1117
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 6: Oh?

1118
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 1: Absolutely would you meet up with Charlie?

1119
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,479
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Absolutely? Yeah?

1120
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, go on, I mean how I mean just in

1121
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 4: pure survival mode. She needed someplace to go, and I

1122
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 4: would have too. And I think he from what I've read,

1123
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 4: and he sounds like he can be very seductive in

1124
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 4: making you feel like there's a bigger purpose. And that's

1125
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:05,440
Speaker 4: very compelling for my personal brain. So I totally understand

1126
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 4: your personal brain. My personal brain, my public brain. Totally

1127
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 4: different story.

1128
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 5: I agree absolutely, Even just the moment that she described

1129
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 5: when she shows up to this house and they all

1130
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 5: just know who she is and they know her name

1131
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:24,959
Speaker 5: and they welcome her with open arms after being kicked

1132
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 5: out of this other place. I mean, even at age

1133
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 5: thirty three, my current age, that would be very alluring

1134
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 5: to me. Yeah, but imagine at fourteen, Oh my god,

1135
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 5: fourteen is the age that we've talked about this in

1136
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 5: the past. Fourteen is the age that or maybe thirteen,

1137
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 5: but that I prayed to Satan for friends because God

1138
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 5: hadn't delivered.

1139
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 3: Me really, you know, and you believed in God, so

1140
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 3: that was a like real right.

1141
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 5: I was desperate, So imagine and I had great parents

1142
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 5: who were, you know, like loving parents, and I can't

1143
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 5: even imagine, like I can't imagine not joining the group

1144
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 5: at that time. Same, Yeah, and of course, like it's

1145
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 5: all about this slow descent, right, his slow descent into madness,

1146
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 5: and by that point, that's your life, that's your community.

1147
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 5: So I urged people to consider. You know, obviously, some

1148
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 5: horrific murders happened. It's easy to think we could never

1149
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 5: do that because it's so horrible, but I urge folks

1150
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:21,960
Speaker 5: to consider if they were in that same situation, you know,

1151
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 5: and on all kinds of LSD, you might be susceptible.

1152
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 4: Do you think that if he hadn't gone so far

1153
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 4: down with drugs there would have been a totally different outcome.

1154
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:34,920
Speaker 5: I don't know, because it seems like there was genuine

1155
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 5: mental illness and instability there already. Like he'd had a

1156
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:40,560
Speaker 5: track record of committing crimes his whole life, even in

1157
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 5: and out of jail, his whole life. So it doesn't

1158
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 5: seem like he was on the straight and arrow other

1159
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 5: than drugs, you know what I mean, Right, It seems

1160
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 5: like classic sociopath stuff, like the unpredictable violent behavior. Clearly

1161
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 5: had a conscience hadn't been much of a factor for him.

1162
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 5: So yeah, so maybe it wouldn't have gotten to that

1163
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 5: particular point. But you know, one always wonder if the

1164
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:02,520
Speaker 5: music career had gone well, you know.

1165
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 3: Isn't Andrew Keegan? Doesn't he have a cult in Venice.

1166
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 5: I don't know if it's a cold or if it's

1167
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 5: a religion. I think he's like a pastor. Oh, people

1168
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:11,840
Speaker 5: called a cold. I don't know if it's a cold

1169
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 5: or if it's just like an independent religion.

1170
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 1: But we should have him on and find out.

1171
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:19,640
Speaker 4: I've randomly spent a lovely afternoon with Andrew Keegan because

1172
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 4: I ran into him on the beach, didn't know who

1173
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 4: he was.

1174
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:25,000
Speaker 3: And he had a parrot and a pug and a Pomeranian.

1175
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, Does he only have pets that start with peace?

1176
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 5: A parent pug and a Pomeranian walk into a bar?

1177
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:35,160
Speaker 2: What is that?

1178
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:43,880
Speaker 1: But yeah, you know it's it's some crazy shit, so yeah, yeah,

1179
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 1: wow a parrot?

1180
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 3: Just have a parrot?

1181
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:48,800
Speaker 1: All right, y'all come back next week and hear the

1182
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 1: rest of his story. Yes, please do.

1183
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,640
Speaker 4: I can't wait for y'all to hear the end of

1184
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:57,439
Speaker 4: the story. And for now, remember to follow your gut,

1185
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 4: watch out for red flags, and ever trust me.

1186
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 2: Bye bye m hm.