WEBVTT - Defense Changes Course: Killer Now Tall? 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:12.680 Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Hi, guys, we were joining 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:15.360 you live outside the Colinton County Courthouse where people are 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:20.480 streaming out for the lunch break. We're inching forward toward 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.400 the end of the state of the Defense case, but 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:27.400 there was a bombshell at the very beginning of the morning. 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:31.080 Take a listen to our cut four. We believe it 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:34.360 would be useful for the jury to see visit Moselle 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:40.000 both the area in the area of the kennels and 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:44.640 the house, just to get some understanding the spatial relationships. 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.640 And so what we would ask is that you asked 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:51.400 the jury if that if they want to do that, 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.840 I mean, I know I wouldn't if they don't want 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:56.200 to do it, I don't want them to do it. 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:58.600 If they want to do it, that'd be fine with me. 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:00.680 And it needs to be done in an x edicious way, 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:02.840 you know, I am. The state is not asking for 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:04.559 there to be a jury of view of the scene, 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:06.880 and if anything, I think that there that would require 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:10.400 additional testimony because the scene is different than it existed 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:13.279 on the night of June seventh, twenty twenty one. Generally, 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:16.119 jury views are at the request of a party and 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:20.920 I'm reflecting again. I don't know that it's necessary in 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:24.160 this particular instance. If either side wants a jury view, 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:28.080 the court will arrange a jury view. Okay, there you 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.240 have it, straight out to high profile criminal defenses. Are 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.600 joining us from the Pepper Law firm, Mark Pepper, Mark, 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.480 thank you for being with us. This conjures up images 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:41.280 of the O. J. Simpson jury view of his home 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:44.440 where my former co anchor, god Rest is old. Johnny 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:49.120 Cochrane and his team had gone through and carefully rearranged 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:53.040 everything in the home to make it more palatable to 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:57.000 the jurars. What do you think about viewing Moselle now, 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:01.520 so much time was passed the incident. Yeah, to include 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.040 a lot of picture frames of the family as I recall, 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:07.840 and the stairwell. Good analogy there, Nancy. This is pretty 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:11.600 typical in our state here in South Carolina. Relevance simply 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:15.760 means will help the fact finder determine what the facts are. 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:18.840 And so typically when any side or either side or 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:22.280 both asked the court to allow the jury to visit 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:25.320 the scene, the judge is going to allow it, as 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.240 he did this morning. I guess, on one hand, if 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:32.440 you're the state it helps show how far away the 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.520 main house is. In the theory that clearly those two 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.280 hundred and fifty eight steps was you hiking all the 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:41.560 way back up that hill. On the defense, maybe they're 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:44.680 looking at it a different way in that the close 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:49.760 proximity of the kennel to the feed room, grabbing two 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:54.120 separate guns, it's just not possible to have conjured all this. 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:56.359 And then you've got the growing of the trees. Right 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:58.480 now we're going to get a jury charge on well, 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:02.680 shrubs and trees have grown since then. This is all 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:06.280 about the defense trying its best to do two things. 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:08.840 In my opinion, Nancy one has just confused the jury. 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:11.280 Just confuse them. Let's take them on a field trip. 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:13.799 Let's let's let them out. Let's get some credibility with them, 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.680 and make sure that we continue to hammer the credibility 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:21.160 of the state's witness. We kind of thought Dick Harputley 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:23.800 might have something up as sleeve this week. I'm not 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:26.560 so sure that this is the last trick, but certainly 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:31.120 a good move by the defense. Mart Pepper, I agree 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.560 with everything that you just said. Got a question, how 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:36.720 many times have you taken a jury out to see 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:44.240 a scene zero. Agree, it's just agreed. You know why 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:50.960 it's fraught. It is fraught with possibilities for a mistrial. 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.880 You go by one nut on the highway with a 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:59.000 sign that says, Marnog did it, honey, it's over where 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:01.720 you go buy a protest or however it may be 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:05.160 staged saying the other way. Now, the state doesn't really 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:08.120 have a lot of room to ask for a mistrial, 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:13.760 but the defense does, so this will all be to 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.960 their advantage. And what you were touching on I found 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.719 very interesting, Mark Pepper, in that the scene it is 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:25.440 not as it was the night of the shootings. Time 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:29.960 has passed, shrubs may have been added, removed. I believe 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:34.240 somebody else owns it now. It's completely different than the 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:38.360 way it was the night of the shootings. And in 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:43.000 my mind, that distorts their view of the evidence because 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:47.200 they're seeing something that is not necessarily based in the evidence. 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:50.479 Isn't that the whole point here, Nancy, right? I mean, 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:54.200 what if there's a footprint picks up one that says, 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.159 wait a minute, we haven't seen a picture of this footprint. 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:00.800 We don't know whose footprint that is, right? The blood stains, oh, 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:03.240 they said it was awful. It doesn't look bad to me. 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.279 This is all an attempt to create confusion among the 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:11.560 juror's great point as far as getting to and from Mozelle, 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:16.800 we're talking a rural community in southwest South Carolina. I mean, 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.920 you're gonna be passing more cornfields and cows than you 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:25.240 are people. However, if the people know the field trip 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.480 is coming by, don't think for one second that there 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.800 won't be some type of sign or thumbs up. I mean, 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:34.520 this is going to turn into the spectacle, the circus 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:38.400 show that the defenses has wanted all along. And another point, 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:42.120 great point you brought up. We've got some serious appellet 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.560 issues here already. We've got the four or four be 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:47.280 stuff that came in, right, didn't come in, but then 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:50.120 it did come in. Now why why white white, white 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:55.240 talk plain English. He's talking about the Well, you've got 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.160 the cousin ediot evidence, which is going to be a 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.920 problem because it was let in, or a problem because 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.279 the defense can now flame if there's a conviction. Of course, 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.600 in effective assistance of counsel. For I believe it was 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.279 a griffin that opened the door. One of the defense 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.760 attorneys opened the door to that. So if there's a conviction, 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.919 while murdog right now is very thankful to all of 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.000 his lawyers, after he sits in jail for a year 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.280 or two, I can see him filing an appeal or 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:26.440 even behavior's corpus when the time is right on ineffective 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:29.279 assistance of counsel. If everything else fails because of that 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.440 one question, what else does he have to do if 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:34.240 he sits to life or that thing, He's going to 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:38.640 file something and you're you only have an effective assistant counsel, 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:40.440 which you know you told that while you go through 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:42.680 the appellate process. That'll be the last straw I think 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.520 he brings. But certainly he's going to challenge any conviction 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.560 based on the legal rulings that were made that he 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:51.800 feels prejudiced to him. I mean, look, this is a 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:55.800 circumstantial case. We've we've seen the evidence. We haven't heard 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:59.200 an eyewitness, we haven't heard any fingerprints or footprints, as 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:01.520 we just heard that this testified today. This is a 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:05.120 circumstantial case. And so can't you see the jury sitting 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:09.119 back there going I'm not sure he did this, but man, 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:11.640 he is a bad person based on what we've heard 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:15.280 so let's just go ahead and convict. That is an 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:19.080 appellet issue is ripe for appeal? Mark Pepper, when you 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:23.040 said that the law in South Carolina is that jarars 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.600 go see the scene. That is very common. But you've 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:30.560 never done it, and you've tried a lot of cases. Now, 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:35.680 I never tried a case without going to the scene myself. Ever, never, never, never. 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:39.240 That's a rule one and trial advocacies you go to 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:41.760 the scene yourself, and if you can't get to the scene, 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.640 you need to quit trying cases. End of story. But 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.280 it would be a cold eight and h double l 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:50.600 that I would want my jury to go there now 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.560 that I'm hiding evidence. It's just that things will have 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:56.120 changed at the time of the incident, and you never 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:59.280 know what may hang up a jarar. I mean, for 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:01.720 all I know, a building has been built. I try 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:04.600 cases in inner City Atlanta. If a building had been 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:08.080 built or some obstruction had been created since the time 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:12.160 of the incident, the gerards will think, well, wow, witness 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:16.480 couldn't see that because of this shrub. So long story short, 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.080 it is fraught with peril, guys, I'm hearing in my ear. 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:22.120 I am now being joined by Kelly skin Flux Nation's 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.760 senior producer has been in the courtroom with me the 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:30.760 entire morning. Kelly, this is the end of the defense case. 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.440 They may have one or two more witnesses left. Do 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:35.559 you know if these are the final two witnesses or 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:38.640 will there be two additional witnesses? Hi, Nancy, We are 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:41.679 expecting at least two more witnesses from the defense, as 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.840 well as that visit to Mozelle the murder scene, as 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:46.960 we have been hearing about. But what we also heard 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.640 this morning is that the defense still expects to rest 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.640 its case today, So we are expecting two more witnesses. 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:55.920 It's to be seen whether that is more of Alec 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:58.840 Murdock's family members. We have been expecting his brothers to 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:02.280 take the stand at least one. Kelly, Kelly, you know 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:05.400 who I like. I don't know her personally, but I 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:09.960 like Savannah Guide in the courtroom. She finally during the 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.240 direct examination some of these witnesses stood up and said 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:16.800 leading and she actually kept oh I love this part. 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:20.360 I had to write it down from batim. When m 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.400 hart put Lean was trying to get in, as we 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.600 call it in the law, Kelly a learned treatise. That's 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.599 a book. I don't know why, Martin Pepper, why do 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.640 we keep calling it a learned treatise? It's a book. 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:37.160 It seems like lawyers come up with every I know. 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:40.280 It seems like Kelly lawyers come up with every word 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:43.840 possible to make things more confusing. But it was a 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.600 learned treatise. It was a book, and it's a really 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:51.920 good book. It's written by an incredible expert in the 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:57.800 criminal field. But he wanted to submit the book or 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:02.959 portions of the book into ev Well, no, I've never 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:07.720 seen that done. I've handled literally thousands of cases plus 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:10.319 reported on it. I don't know how many, because it's 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:13.400 all here safe. It's what some author that is not 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:16.680 there in the courtroom for cross examination. It's what they say, 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.360 and it may be accurate, but it is here safe, 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.480 and I loved it. Kelly skin when I guess one 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:27.520 of his helpers handed him the law on a learned 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.640 treatise and he said, no, it should come in your honor, 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:32.880 and he started reading it and the end of the 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:36.440 sentence was shall not come into evidence and will be 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.360 excluded anyway. Oh well, I'm not entering that. I bet 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.960 somebody gets a chewing out at the lunch break for 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:47.960 handing him that law. Kelly Skin, Yes, Nancy, I saw that, 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:50.560 and we did see Savannah Good stand up and say 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.320 this is hearsay. You cannot admit this into evidence. The 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.920 guy who wrote the book is not here on the stand. 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.800 He is not here to testify. You know, the state 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:05.040 is questioning them fairly. Well, I think i'm cross examination. 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:10.720 But Kelly, explain these two witnesses. It's doctor Eissat and 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.840 Tim Palmback. Who are they and what is their point? 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:18.280 Let's take the doctor first, the pathologists. Yeah, Nancy, we've 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:20.520 seen a big back and forth in the courtroom today 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.839 between witnesses. This was to be expected. The defense is 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.800 trying to poke holes in the prosecution's case. Today. We 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:30.240 heard from Tim paul Back, he is a forensic scientist, 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:33.720 and then we also heard from I'm looking at my notes. 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:37.439 There are many witnesses to keep track of doctor Jonathan Eisenstatt, 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:41.040 And basically they're trying to poke holes in the prosecution's 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:45.320 case about from which direction Maggie and Paul were shot 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:49.800 and which shots were the fatal wounds. They're you know, 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.040 last week or the week before that, we heard that 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.840 the defense said this was a five two shooter. Today 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.000 we're also hearing that Paul was shot in the top 0:11:58.040 --> 0:11:59.600 of the head. So I think you see a lot 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.600 of confusion on the jury's face, trying to reconcile what 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.040 they're hearing from the prosecution, what they're hearing from the 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:22.880 defense time stories with Nancy Grace. Well, Kelly, that's a 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.640 really good point you just brought out. I heard that, 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.840 and I was wondering if the jury could connect all 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.120 the dots with so much evidence pouring out. But if 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.439 you caught it, and I caught it between the two 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:36.240 of us, Kelly, certainly somebody on the jury caught it 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:41.559 because that witness was suggesting that the shooter was taller 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:45.840 or in an elevated position when they took aim. And 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:51.080 that's exactly diametrically opposed to the whole defense theory. Remember 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.520 the little green man and the green trajectory pass that 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.120 they used to convince the jury the double shooter motif. 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:02.680 And we're seeing the double sheet motif in theory rearing 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.800 its ugly head yet again for the state, and this 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.400 time they've got experts to back it up. You know. 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:12.240 Joining me is Dean Corsentino, doctor Heide Deceivers, and doctor 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:16.000 Michel Dupree. But first to you, doctor Michel Dupree. You 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:22.120 have been listening to Isostat's testimony throughout bottom line. Where 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.760 is he going? What is it the point of his testimony? Well, Nancy, 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:28.720 I think that it's actually too again discredit part of 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:32.240 doctor Rymer's testimony and bring up the two shooter theory. 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.360 I don't think he's doing a very good job. I 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.200 think there are holes in what he has said as well, 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:41.880 one of those being he admitted that there were palette 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:47.080 defects on the top of the door or something. I 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.199 have never, in all my years of practice, ever seen 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:55.200 palettes bounce backwards. It just doesn't make sense. Well, I 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.480 gotta tell you something about doctor Jonathan Isisenstatt. He has 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:02.160 certainly done a lot of autopsies. I was ready to 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:06.360 write down everything wrong about his curriculum vita. But I'm 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:10.880 telling you anybody that is a medical examiner examiner in 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:15.719 inner City Atlanta, they have seen plenty of autopsies. He 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.240 was doing between two d one hundred and two hundred, 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:22.840 one hundred and two hundred and fifty autopsies a year. Now, 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:25.880 I did notice that he has left and he is 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:30.400 now doing a consulting practice and also as usual and 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.560 of course we would expect nothing less Pepper. He was 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:36.280 cross examined on how much money he's making, and he's 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:40.040 making a lot of money, I mean thousands of dollars. 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:42.680 Would that of course the state is going to argue 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.920 that that would taint his testimony. Well, you know, I 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:48.440 thought Samana did as good job as she could. There's 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:50.640 really not a whole lot to challenge him on. But 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:55.240 make sure the jury understands he's a paid expert, not 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:59.280 by the state but by Murdoch. Over here he's a jukebox. 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.120 I take it you have handled murder cases, have you not? Yes? 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:10.560 I have. How many times have you seen a rectal 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:15.400 thermometer stuck up a dead victim's rear end? There's really 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:17.440 no nice way to put it. There's not and that's 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.960 the answer. Zero zero. You don't. You don't put a 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:29.200 rectal thermometer. Yeah, I mean, okay, guys, look you're here 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.480 because we're trying a murder case and it's happening right 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.760 behind me. And that was the testimony today. One of 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:38.040 the first things they did, doctor Michelle Dufrey, Thank goodness 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:40.760 I wrote down all these notes. Was jump on the 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:44.200 state because they didn't use a rectal thermometer on the 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:49.440 two dead bodies. Really, that's right, Because that's right, Nancy. 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:53.080 They made they made a play at the fact that 0:15:53.760 --> 0:16:00.120 the investigators felt the armpit, and as I recall and 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.480 Kelly correct me if I'm wrong, it was still warm. 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:09.120 So if the body is still warm, I don't have 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:12.840 to have a medical degree to tell me that the 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:17.720 murder was recent, doctor Dupre. Now listen, you're the MD. 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:20.280 I'm just a JD. But I can tell you I 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:23.960 have never had a single case where a medical exander 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:28.320 used a directal thermometer of the dead body. No, never, Nancy, 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:32.880 You're exactly right. I have never used directal thermometer. I 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:35.360 have used a thermometer in the liver, which is much 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:38.960 more accurate. I have never, and has no one that 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:41.240 I've ever known that has been trained as a forensic 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:44.680 pathologist or medical examiner put our hand in the armpit. 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:49.640 That is absolutely not scientific. There's no forensic basis for that. Yes, 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.040 it tells you that the body is warm, but it 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.280 doesn't tell you how warm. And again, there are many variables, 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:57.760 and as you well know, the time of death is 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:00.920 very much a variable. There are men any other factors 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.440 like lever mortis, rigor mortis and all of those things. Well, 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.399 can I ask you a question, doctor Dupree, and be 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:09.520 blunt sure. I don't have you on the stand, You're 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:11.399 not on the oath. You can say whatever you feel 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:16.800 like saying, but don't we have them alive? And well? 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:22.680 At about help me out, Kelly eight forty seven PM 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:28.240 on that video and we're having them. Man, you've got 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:31.040 it together, Kelly Ski And I'm glad you're here, Okay, 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.359 eight forty nine. And you know what those two minutes 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:35.240 I said, eight forty seven, she said, eight forty nine. 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:39.400 They matter, They absolutely matter in this case. And then 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.560 by ten o'clock when he gets back ten oh six, 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:46.120 he costs nine one one. We can pretty much establish 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:48.320 the time of death between eight forty nine and ten 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:53.879 oh six. Don't you agree with that, doctor Dupree? Absolutely absolutely, Nancy. 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:56.439 And a thermometer at that point is not going to 0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:00.840 make a difference. No, it is not. Here are having 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:04.840 a murder go down? On June seven, it's hot as 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:09.280 haydes in South Carolina and the bodies are still warm, 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:14.760 and you have a timeline between eight forty nine, basically 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:19.040 nine o'clock and ten o'clock. So we've got it narrowed 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:25.080 down to an hour. So all this rigmarole about the 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:29.560 rectal thermometer and oh, you know, speaking of rectal thermometers, 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:33.280 and I've certainly never said that sentence before, but thinking 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:37.840 of speaking of rectal thermometers. Back to you, doctor Michelle Dupree, again, 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:39.920 thank you so much for being with us. And she's 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:45.200 not just a pathologist, she is not just a forensic expert. 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:49.399 She's also a former detective. When you are trying to 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:53.520 analyze a crime scene and there is blood spatter everywhere, 0:18:55.080 --> 0:19:00.399 do you really think it's appropriate to manhandle the body, 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:05.119 yank the pants down, and do a rectal thermometer? Take no, nacy. 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:07.760 I do not, And again I honestly don't know anyone 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.440 that has actually done that. That is not the way 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:12.879 that we're trained. If we're going to take the temperature, 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:16.160 if there is some need to know the specific amount 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.200 of temperature, then we use a thermometer in the liver, 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:21.800 not in the rectum. How do you get a thermometer 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.040 in the liver, You push it through the skin to 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:27.439 the liver. Okay, I had not thought of that. Guys 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:29.480 with me an all star panel to makes sense what 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:31.359 we know right now. All you've heard so far is 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:35.919 we're going to Mozelle and threatening a mistrial in doing so, 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.600 and you've heard a lot about rectal thermometers. Joining me 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:43.959 is doctor Heidi Sivers, founder of Sivers Forensics. She's an 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:49.119 expert of blood stained pattern blood patterns. What did you 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:53.160 make of what was being said about the blood spatter evidence. 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:58.159 I still don't see how they're making the conclusion that 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:00.480 there were two shooters. What do you make of the 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.760 doctor savers so one. I think that it was a ploy. 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.719 Just like we've been discussing about poking holes in the 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:10.359 state's case and trying to confuse the jury. This is 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:14.800 starting to become the personification of the classic CSI effect 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:17.920 of one going back out to the scene. The jurors 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.480 are going to expect for that scene to someone being memorialized, 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:25.320 even though obviously it's not going to be. They are 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:30.000 going to expect to see the things that they've been discussing. Further, really, 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:32.960 what I've been hearing all this morning is what I 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.359 call trigger words when it comes to blood stained pattern analysis, 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:39.240 and those are words that the jury has probably heard 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:43.359 in the media or on television shows. But honestly, some 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.119 of them are being used incorrectly and somewhat flippidly, and 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:50.399 although they can have other connotations, they're being used in 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:54.760 the wrong manner, and in this case, that terminology makes 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:58.040 a difference when we're looking at these And further, when 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.199 he was discussing the amount out of spatter on that 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:04.680 door as what he called blowback or what's termed backspatter, 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.359 the height of that he actually, I'm not sure he 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.040 realized he was doing it, but just like with that 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:15.159 higher shot on a taller person, he actually implicated that 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.359 that would have been a taller person with the amount 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:20.240 of spatter only being at the top left hand corner 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:23.240 of that door. Okay, you know what, I was trying 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:25.040 to drink in everything that you just said. Can you 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:28.280 say it one more time because I want everybody else 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:30.520 on the panel to white in on what you just 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:34.800 said about the blood spatter. Go ahead, sure, absolutely so. 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:37.880 First and foremost, some of the words that are being 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:40.600 used or what I term trigger words when it comes 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:44.120 to bloodstained patterns and their words that are commonly seen 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:48.080 in television shows and in the media, But in this case, 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:50.639 and from what I've been hearing in testimony, some of 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:55.120 them are being used flipidly, and when it comes down 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:59.240 to it, they matter. Using them in the correct context matters. 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:03.879 And further, the first witness that was on the stand 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:08.120 suggested that the shooter was taller and when they were 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:11.760 talking about they termed a blowback. But the backspatter that 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:14.760 deposited on the door in the upper left hand corner 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:19.719 and creating that void of the shooter, they actually, unbeknownst 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:21.320 to them, I'm not sure they realized they did it, 0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:24.720 but they actually implicated it being a much taller shooter 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:28.480 to block that door only with the exception of the 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:31.040 top left hand corner of the door. Hold On, I'm 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:34.040 writing that down, Kelly Skan. Did you hear what doctor 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.159 Heidi Savers just said they did? She's right, and she 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:43.080 articulated it so perfectly, Kelly. They implicated a much taller shooter. 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:45.960 Could you finish the rest of that, doctor Savers? Yeah, 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:49.600 they implicated them The blood spattered because they discussed the 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:53.320 voided area, which avoid is simply just the absence of 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:57.840 a continuous bloodstained pattern, so an absence of blood where 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:00.960 we would expect there to be blood in the essence 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:03.680 of the back spatter, which was evidence. At the top 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:06.920 left hand corner of that door, we see that voided area, 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:09.720 which is most likely where the shooter was standing. But 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:13.160 because it's in such a small and very high up area, 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:16.360 very tall area at the top left hand corner, they 0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:20.879 really seemingly implicated a much taller individual. A way I 0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:25.359 would explain it to the jury is if if Sidney 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:28.320 was standing there and she had a giant bowl of 0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:31.560 tomato soup and threw it at me, it would hit 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:34.399 all around me, on the wall behind me, but there 0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:37.639 would be a void that you hear doctor Severs talking 0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:42.119 about where I'm standing. That's an easy way to explain 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:47.560 the accurate discussion that doctor high Deceivers just gave you 0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:51.520 something really important that hasn't been mentioned today. So the 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:55.199 defense is essentially saying that Paul was shot and at 0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:56.680 the top of the head and that went out of 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:59.400 his shoulder. The prosecution said, no way, it went through 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:01.359