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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Hi, guys, we were joining

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Speaker 1: you live outside the Colinton County Courthouse where people are

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Speaker 1: streaming out for the lunch break. We're inching forward toward

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Speaker 1: the end of the state of the Defense case, but

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Speaker 1: there was a bombshell at the very beginning of the morning.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut four. We believe it

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Speaker 1: would be useful for the jury to see visit Moselle

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Speaker 1: both the area in the area of the kennels and

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Speaker 1: the house, just to get some understanding the spatial relationships.

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Speaker 1: And so what we would ask is that you asked

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Speaker 1: the jury if that if they want to do that,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know I wouldn't if they don't want

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Speaker 1: to do it, I don't want them to do it.

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Speaker 1: If they want to do it, that'd be fine with me.

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Speaker 1: And it needs to be done in an x edicious way,

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Speaker 1: you know, I am. The state is not asking for

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Speaker 1: there to be a jury of view of the scene,

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Speaker 1: and if anything, I think that there that would require

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Speaker 1: additional testimony because the scene is different than it existed

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Speaker 1: on the night of June seventh, twenty twenty one. Generally,

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Speaker 1: jury views are at the request of a party and

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Speaker 1: I'm reflecting again. I don't know that it's necessary in

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Speaker 1: this particular instance. If either side wants a jury view,

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Speaker 1: the court will arrange a jury view. Okay, there you

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Speaker 1: have it, straight out to high profile criminal defenses. Are

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Speaker 1: joining us from the Pepper Law firm, Mark Pepper, Mark,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. This conjures up images

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Speaker 1: of the O. J. Simpson jury view of his home

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Speaker 1: where my former co anchor, god Rest is old. Johnny

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Speaker 1: Cochrane and his team had gone through and carefully rearranged

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Speaker 1: everything in the home to make it more palatable to

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Speaker 1: the jurars. What do you think about viewing Moselle now,

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Speaker 1: so much time was passed the incident. Yeah, to include

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Speaker 1: a lot of picture frames of the family as I recall,

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Speaker 1: and the stairwell. Good analogy there, Nancy. This is pretty

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Speaker 1: typical in our state here in South Carolina. Relevance simply

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Speaker 1: means will help the fact finder determine what the facts are.

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Speaker 1: And so typically when any side or either side or

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Speaker 1: both asked the court to allow the jury to visit

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Speaker 1: the scene, the judge is going to allow it, as

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Speaker 1: he did this morning. I guess, on one hand, if

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Speaker 1: you're the state it helps show how far away the

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Speaker 1: main house is. In the theory that clearly those two

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty eight steps was you hiking all the

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Speaker 1: way back up that hill. On the defense, maybe they're

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Speaker 1: looking at it a different way in that the close

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Speaker 1: proximity of the kennel to the feed room, grabbing two

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Speaker 1: separate guns, it's just not possible to have conjured all this.

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Speaker 1: And then you've got the growing of the trees. Right

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Speaker 1: now we're going to get a jury charge on well,

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Speaker 1: shrubs and trees have grown since then. This is all

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Speaker 1: about the defense trying its best to do two things.

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Speaker 1: In my opinion, Nancy one has just confused the jury.

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Speaker 1: Just confuse them. Let's take them on a field trip.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's let them out. Let's get some credibility with them,

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Speaker 1: and make sure that we continue to hammer the credibility

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Speaker 1: of the state's witness. We kind of thought Dick Harputley

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Speaker 1: might have something up as sleeve this week. I'm not

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Speaker 1: so sure that this is the last trick, but certainly

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Speaker 1: a good move by the defense. Mart Pepper, I agree

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Speaker 1: with everything that you just said. Got a question, how

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Speaker 1: many times have you taken a jury out to see

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Speaker 1: a scene zero. Agree, it's just agreed. You know why

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Speaker 1: it's fraught. It is fraught with possibilities for a mistrial.

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Speaker 1: You go by one nut on the highway with a

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Speaker 1: sign that says, Marnog did it, honey, it's over where

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Speaker 1: you go buy a protest or however it may be

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Speaker 1: staged saying the other way. Now, the state doesn't really

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Speaker 1: have a lot of room to ask for a mistrial,

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Speaker 1: but the defense does, so this will all be to

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Speaker 1: their advantage. And what you were touching on I found

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Speaker 1: very interesting, Mark Pepper, in that the scene it is

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Speaker 1: not as it was the night of the shootings. Time

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Speaker 1: has passed, shrubs may have been added, removed. I believe

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Speaker 1: somebody else owns it now. It's completely different than the

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Speaker 1: way it was the night of the shootings. And in

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Speaker 1: my mind, that distorts their view of the evidence because

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Speaker 1: they're seeing something that is not necessarily based in the evidence.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that the whole point here, Nancy, right? I mean,

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Speaker 1: what if there's a footprint picks up one that says,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, we haven't seen a picture of this footprint.

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Speaker 1: We don't know whose footprint that is, right? The blood stains, oh,

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Speaker 1: they said it was awful. It doesn't look bad to me.

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Speaker 1: This is all an attempt to create confusion among the

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Speaker 1: juror's great point as far as getting to and from Mozelle,

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Speaker 1: we're talking a rural community in southwest South Carolina. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be passing more cornfields and cows than you

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Speaker 1: are people. However, if the people know the field trip

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Speaker 1: is coming by, don't think for one second that there

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Speaker 1: won't be some type of sign or thumbs up. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is going to turn into the spectacle, the circus

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Speaker 1: show that the defenses has wanted all along. And another point,

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Speaker 1: great point you brought up. We've got some serious appellet

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Speaker 1: issues here already. We've got the four or four be

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Speaker 1: stuff that came in, right, didn't come in, but then

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Speaker 1: it did come in. Now why why white white, white

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Speaker 1: talk plain English. He's talking about the Well, you've got

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Speaker 1: the cousin ediot evidence, which is going to be a

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Speaker 1: problem because it was let in, or a problem because

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Speaker 1: the defense can now flame if there's a conviction. Of course,

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Speaker 1: in effective assistance of counsel. For I believe it was

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Speaker 1: a griffin that opened the door. One of the defense

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Speaker 1: attorneys opened the door to that. So if there's a conviction,

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Speaker 1: while murdog right now is very thankful to all of

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Speaker 1: his lawyers, after he sits in jail for a year

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Speaker 1: or two, I can see him filing an appeal or

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Speaker 1: even behavior's corpus when the time is right on ineffective

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Speaker 1: assistance of counsel. If everything else fails because of that

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Speaker 1: one question, what else does he have to do if

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Speaker 1: he sits to life or that thing, He's going to

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Speaker 1: file something and you're you only have an effective assistant counsel,

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Speaker 1: which you know you told that while you go through

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Speaker 1: the appellate process. That'll be the last straw I think

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Speaker 1: he brings. But certainly he's going to challenge any conviction

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Speaker 1: based on the legal rulings that were made that he

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Speaker 1: feels prejudiced to him. I mean, look, this is a

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Speaker 1: circumstantial case. We've we've seen the evidence. We haven't heard

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Speaker 1: an eyewitness, we haven't heard any fingerprints or footprints, as

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Speaker 1: we just heard that this testified today. This is a

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Speaker 1: circumstantial case. And so can't you see the jury sitting

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Speaker 1: back there going I'm not sure he did this, but man,

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Speaker 1: he is a bad person based on what we've heard

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Speaker 1: so let's just go ahead and convict. That is an

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Speaker 1: appellet issue is ripe for appeal? Mark Pepper, when you

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Speaker 1: said that the law in South Carolina is that jarars

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Speaker 1: go see the scene. That is very common. But you've

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Speaker 1: never done it, and you've tried a lot of cases. Now,

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Speaker 1: I never tried a case without going to the scene myself. Ever, never, never, never.

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Speaker 1: That's a rule one and trial advocacies you go to

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Speaker 1: the scene yourself, and if you can't get to the scene,

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Speaker 1: you need to quit trying cases. End of story. But

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Speaker 1: it would be a cold eight and h double l

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Speaker 1: that I would want my jury to go there now

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Speaker 1: that I'm hiding evidence. It's just that things will have

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Speaker 1: changed at the time of the incident, and you never

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Speaker 1: know what may hang up a jarar. I mean, for

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Speaker 1: all I know, a building has been built. I try

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Speaker 1: cases in inner City Atlanta. If a building had been

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Speaker 1: built or some obstruction had been created since the time

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Speaker 1: of the incident, the gerards will think, well, wow, witness

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Speaker 1: couldn't see that because of this shrub. So long story short,

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Speaker 1: it is fraught with peril, guys, I'm hearing in my ear.

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Speaker 1: I am now being joined by Kelly skin Flux Nation's

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Speaker 1: senior producer has been in the courtroom with me the

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Speaker 1: entire morning. Kelly, this is the end of the defense case.

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Speaker 1: They may have one or two more witnesses left. Do

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Speaker 1: you know if these are the final two witnesses or

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Speaker 1: will there be two additional witnesses? Hi, Nancy, We are

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Speaker 1: expecting at least two more witnesses from the defense, as

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Speaker 1: well as that visit to Mozelle the murder scene, as

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Speaker 1: we have been hearing about. But what we also heard

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Speaker 1: this morning is that the defense still expects to rest

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Speaker 1: its case today, So we are expecting two more witnesses.

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Speaker 1: It's to be seen whether that is more of Alec

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Speaker 1: Murdock's family members. We have been expecting his brothers to

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Speaker 1: take the stand at least one. Kelly, Kelly, you know

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Speaker 1: who I like. I don't know her personally, but I

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Speaker 1: like Savannah Guide in the courtroom. She finally during the

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Speaker 1: direct examination some of these witnesses stood up and said

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Speaker 1: leading and she actually kept oh I love this part.

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Speaker 1: I had to write it down from batim. When m

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Speaker 1: hart put Lean was trying to get in, as we

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Speaker 1: call it in the law, Kelly a learned treatise. That's

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Speaker 1: a book. I don't know why, Martin Pepper, why do

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Speaker 1: we keep calling it a learned treatise? It's a book.

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Speaker 1: It seems like lawyers come up with every I know.

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Speaker 1: It seems like Kelly lawyers come up with every word

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Speaker 1: possible to make things more confusing. But it was a

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Speaker 1: learned treatise. It was a book, and it's a really

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Speaker 1: good book. It's written by an incredible expert in the

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Speaker 1: criminal field. But he wanted to submit the book or

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Speaker 1: portions of the book into ev Well, no, I've never

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Speaker 1: seen that done. I've handled literally thousands of cases plus

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Speaker 1: reported on it. I don't know how many, because it's

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Speaker 1: all here safe. It's what some author that is not

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Speaker 1: there in the courtroom for cross examination. It's what they say,

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Speaker 1: and it may be accurate, but it is here safe,

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Speaker 1: and I loved it. Kelly skin when I guess one

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Speaker 1: of his helpers handed him the law on a learned

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Speaker 1: treatise and he said, no, it should come in your honor,

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Speaker 1: and he started reading it and the end of the

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Speaker 1: sentence was shall not come into evidence and will be

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Speaker 1: excluded anyway. Oh well, I'm not entering that. I bet

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Speaker 1: somebody gets a chewing out at the lunch break for

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Speaker 1: handing him that law. Kelly Skin, Yes, Nancy, I saw that,

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Speaker 1: and we did see Savannah Good stand up and say

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Speaker 1: this is hearsay. You cannot admit this into evidence. The

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Speaker 1: guy who wrote the book is not here on the stand.

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Speaker 1: He is not here to testify. You know, the state

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Speaker 1: is questioning them fairly. Well, I think i'm cross examination.

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Speaker 1: But Kelly, explain these two witnesses. It's doctor Eissat and

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Speaker 1: Tim Palmback. Who are they and what is their point?

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Speaker 1: Let's take the doctor first, the pathologists. Yeah, Nancy, we've

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Speaker 1: seen a big back and forth in the courtroom today

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Speaker 1: between witnesses. This was to be expected. The defense is

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Speaker 1: trying to poke holes in the prosecution's case. Today. We

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Speaker 1: heard from Tim paul Back, he is a forensic scientist,

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Speaker 1: and then we also heard from I'm looking at my notes.

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Speaker 1: There are many witnesses to keep track of doctor Jonathan Eisenstatt,

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Speaker 1: And basically they're trying to poke holes in the prosecution's

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Speaker 1: case about from which direction Maggie and Paul were shot

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Speaker 1: and which shots were the fatal wounds. They're you know,

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Speaker 1: last week or the week before that, we heard that

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Speaker 1: the defense said this was a five two shooter. Today

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Speaker 1: we're also hearing that Paul was shot in the top

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Speaker 1: of the head. So I think you see a lot

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Speaker 1: of confusion on the jury's face, trying to reconcile what

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Speaker 1: they're hearing from the prosecution, what they're hearing from the

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Speaker 1: defense time stories with Nancy Grace. Well, Kelly, that's a

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Speaker 1: really good point you just brought out. I heard that,

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Speaker 1: and I was wondering if the jury could connect all

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Speaker 1: the dots with so much evidence pouring out. But if

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Speaker 1: you caught it, and I caught it between the two

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Speaker 1: of us, Kelly, certainly somebody on the jury caught it

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Speaker 1: because that witness was suggesting that the shooter was taller

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Speaker 1: or in an elevated position when they took aim. And

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Speaker 1: that's exactly diametrically opposed to the whole defense theory. Remember

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Speaker 1: the little green man and the green trajectory pass that

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Speaker 1: they used to convince the jury the double shooter motif.

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Speaker 1: And we're seeing the double sheet motif in theory rearing

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Speaker 1: its ugly head yet again for the state, and this

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Speaker 1: time they've got experts to back it up. You know.

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Speaker 1: Joining me is Dean Corsentino, doctor Heide Deceivers, and doctor

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Speaker 1: Michel Dupree. But first to you, doctor Michel Dupree. You

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Speaker 1: have been listening to Isostat's testimony throughout bottom line. Where

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Speaker 1: is he going? What is it the point of his testimony? Well, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I think that it's actually too again discredit part of

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Speaker 1: doctor Rymer's testimony and bring up the two shooter theory.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he's doing a very good job. I

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Speaker 1: think there are holes in what he has said as well,

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Speaker 1: one of those being he admitted that there were palette

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Speaker 1: defects on the top of the door or something. I

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Speaker 1: have never, in all my years of practice, ever seen

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Speaker 1: palettes bounce backwards. It just doesn't make sense. Well, I

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Speaker 1: gotta tell you something about doctor Jonathan Isisenstatt. He has

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Speaker 1: certainly done a lot of autopsies. I was ready to

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Speaker 1: write down everything wrong about his curriculum vita. But I'm

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Speaker 1: telling you anybody that is a medical examiner examiner in

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Speaker 1: inner City Atlanta, they have seen plenty of autopsies. He

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Speaker 1: was doing between two d one hundred and two hundred,

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Speaker 1: one hundred and two hundred and fifty autopsies a year. Now,

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Speaker 1: I did notice that he has left and he is

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Speaker 1: now doing a consulting practice and also as usual and

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Speaker 1: of course we would expect nothing less Pepper. He was

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Speaker 1: cross examined on how much money he's making, and he's

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Speaker 1: making a lot of money, I mean thousands of dollars.

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Speaker 1: Would that of course the state is going to argue

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Speaker 1: that that would taint his testimony. Well, you know, I

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Speaker 1: thought Samana did as good job as she could. There's

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Speaker 1: really not a whole lot to challenge him on. But

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Speaker 1: make sure the jury understands he's a paid expert, not

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Speaker 1: by the state but by Murdoch. Over here he's a jukebox.

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Speaker 1: I take it you have handled murder cases, have you not? Yes?

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Speaker 1: I have. How many times have you seen a rectal

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Speaker 1: thermometer stuck up a dead victim's rear end? There's really

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Speaker 1: no nice way to put it. There's not and that's

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Speaker 1: the answer. Zero zero. You don't. You don't put a

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Speaker 1: rectal thermometer. Yeah, I mean, okay, guys, look you're here

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Speaker 1: because we're trying a murder case and it's happening right

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Speaker 1: behind me. And that was the testimony today. One of

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Speaker 1: the first things they did, doctor Michelle Dufrey, Thank goodness

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Speaker 1: I wrote down all these notes. Was jump on the

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Speaker 1: state because they didn't use a rectal thermometer on the

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Speaker 1: two dead bodies. Really, that's right, Because that's right, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: They made they made a play at the fact that

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Speaker 1: the investigators felt the armpit, and as I recall and

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Speaker 1: Kelly correct me if I'm wrong, it was still warm.

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Speaker 1: So if the body is still warm, I don't have

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Speaker 1: to have a medical degree to tell me that the

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Speaker 1: murder was recent, doctor Dupre. Now listen, you're the MD.

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Speaker 1: I'm just a JD. But I can tell you I

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Speaker 1: have never had a single case where a medical exander

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Speaker 1: used a directal thermometer of the dead body. No, never, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: You're exactly right. I have never used directal thermometer. I

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Speaker 1: have used a thermometer in the liver, which is much

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Speaker 1: more accurate. I have never, and has no one that

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Speaker 1: I've ever known that has been trained as a forensic

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Speaker 1: pathologist or medical examiner put our hand in the armpit.

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Speaker 1: That is absolutely not scientific. There's no forensic basis for that. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it tells you that the body is warm, but it

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Speaker 1: doesn't tell you how warm. And again, there are many variables,

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Speaker 1: and as you well know, the time of death is

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Speaker 1: very much a variable. There are men any other factors

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Speaker 1: like lever mortis, rigor mortis and all of those things. Well,

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Speaker 1: can I ask you a question, doctor Dupree, and be

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Speaker 1: blunt sure. I don't have you on the stand, You're

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Speaker 1: not on the oath. You can say whatever you feel

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Speaker 1: like saying, but don't we have them alive? And well?

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Speaker 1: At about help me out, Kelly eight forty seven PM

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Speaker 1: on that video and we're having them. Man, you've got

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Speaker 1: it together, Kelly Ski And I'm glad you're here, Okay,

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Speaker 1: eight forty nine. And you know what those two minutes

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Speaker 1: I said, eight forty seven, she said, eight forty nine.

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Speaker 1: They matter, They absolutely matter in this case. And then

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Speaker 1: by ten o'clock when he gets back ten oh six,

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Speaker 1: he costs nine one one. We can pretty much establish

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Speaker 1: the time of death between eight forty nine and ten

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Speaker 1: oh six. Don't you agree with that, doctor Dupree? Absolutely absolutely, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: And a thermometer at that point is not going to

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Speaker 1: make a difference. No, it is not. Here are having

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Speaker 1: a murder go down? On June seven, it's hot as

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Speaker 1: haydes in South Carolina and the bodies are still warm,

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Speaker 1: and you have a timeline between eight forty nine, basically

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Speaker 1: nine o'clock and ten o'clock. So we've got it narrowed

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Speaker 1: down to an hour. So all this rigmarole about the

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Speaker 1: rectal thermometer and oh, you know, speaking of rectal thermometers,

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Speaker 1: and I've certainly never said that sentence before, but thinking

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Speaker 1: of speaking of rectal thermometers. Back to you, doctor Michelle Dupree, again,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. And she's

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Speaker 1: not just a pathologist, she is not just a forensic expert.

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Speaker 1: She's also a former detective. When you are trying to

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Speaker 1: analyze a crime scene and there is blood spatter everywhere,

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Speaker 1: do you really think it's appropriate to manhandle the body,

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Speaker 1: yank the pants down, and do a rectal thermometer? Take no, nacy.

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Speaker 1: I do not, And again I honestly don't know anyone

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Speaker 1: that has actually done that. That is not the way

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Speaker 1: that we're trained. If we're going to take the temperature,

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Speaker 1: if there is some need to know the specific amount

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Speaker 1: of temperature, then we use a thermometer in the liver,

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Speaker 1: not in the rectum. How do you get a thermometer

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Speaker 1: in the liver, You push it through the skin to

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Speaker 1: the liver. Okay, I had not thought of that. Guys

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Speaker 1: with me an all star panel to makes sense what

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Speaker 1: we know right now. All you've heard so far is

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Speaker 1: we're going to Mozelle and threatening a mistrial in doing so,

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Speaker 1: and you've heard a lot about rectal thermometers. Joining me

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Speaker 1: is doctor Heidi Sivers, founder of Sivers Forensics. She's an

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Speaker 1: expert of blood stained pattern blood patterns. What did you

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Speaker 1: make of what was being said about the blood spatter evidence.

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Speaker 1: I still don't see how they're making the conclusion that

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Speaker 1: there were two shooters. What do you make of the

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Speaker 1: doctor savers so one. I think that it was a ploy.

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Speaker 1: Just like we've been discussing about poking holes in the

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Speaker 1: state's case and trying to confuse the jury. This is

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Speaker 1: starting to become the personification of the classic CSI effect

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Speaker 1: of one going back out to the scene. The jurors

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Speaker 1: are going to expect for that scene to someone being memorialized,

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Speaker 1: even though obviously it's not going to be. They are

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Speaker 1: going to expect to see the things that they've been discussing. Further, really,

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Speaker 1: what I've been hearing all this morning is what I

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Speaker 1: call trigger words when it comes to blood stained pattern analysis,

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Speaker 1: and those are words that the jury has probably heard

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Speaker 1: in the media or on television shows. But honestly, some

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Speaker 1: of them are being used incorrectly and somewhat flippidly, and

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Speaker 1: although they can have other connotations, they're being used in

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Speaker 1: the wrong manner, and in this case, that terminology makes

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Speaker 1: a difference when we're looking at these And further, when

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Speaker 1: he was discussing the amount out of spatter on that

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Speaker 1: door as what he called blowback or what's termed backspatter,

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Speaker 1: the height of that he actually, I'm not sure he

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Speaker 1: realized he was doing it, but just like with that

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Speaker 1: higher shot on a taller person, he actually implicated that

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Speaker 1: that would have been a taller person with the amount

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Speaker 1: of spatter only being at the top left hand corner

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Speaker 1: of that door. Okay, you know what, I was trying

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Speaker 1: to drink in everything that you just said. Can you

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Speaker 1: say it one more time because I want everybody else

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Speaker 1: on the panel to white in on what you just

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Speaker 1: said about the blood spatter. Go ahead, sure, absolutely so.

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Speaker 1: First and foremost, some of the words that are being

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Speaker 1: used or what I term trigger words when it comes

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Speaker 1: to bloodstained patterns and their words that are commonly seen

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Speaker 1: in television shows and in the media, But in this case,

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Speaker 1: and from what I've been hearing in testimony, some of

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Speaker 1: them are being used flipidly, and when it comes down

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Speaker 1: to it, they matter. Using them in the correct context matters.

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Speaker 1: And further, the first witness that was on the stand

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Speaker 1: suggested that the shooter was taller and when they were

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Speaker 1: talking about they termed a blowback. But the backspatter that

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Speaker 1: deposited on the door in the upper left hand corner

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Speaker 1: and creating that void of the shooter, they actually, unbeknownst

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Speaker 1: to them, I'm not sure they realized they did it,

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Speaker 1: but they actually implicated it being a much taller shooter

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Speaker 1: to block that door only with the exception of the

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Speaker 1: top left hand corner of the door. Hold On, I'm

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Speaker 1: writing that down, Kelly Skan. Did you hear what doctor

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Speaker 1: Heidi Savers just said they did? She's right, and she

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Speaker 1: articulated it so perfectly, Kelly. They implicated a much taller shooter.

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Speaker 1: Could you finish the rest of that, doctor Savers? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they implicated them The blood spattered because they discussed the

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Speaker 1: voided area, which avoid is simply just the absence of

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Speaker 1: a continuous bloodstained pattern, so an absence of blood where

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Speaker 1: we would expect there to be blood in the essence

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Speaker 1: of the back spatter, which was evidence. At the top

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Speaker 1: left hand corner of that door, we see that voided area,

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Speaker 1: which is most likely where the shooter was standing. But

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Speaker 1: because it's in such a small and very high up area,

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Speaker 1: very tall area at the top left hand corner, they

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Speaker 1: really seemingly implicated a much taller individual. A way I

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Speaker 1: would explain it to the jury is if if Sidney

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Speaker 1: was standing there and she had a giant bowl of

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Speaker 1: tomato soup and threw it at me, it would hit

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Speaker 1: all around me, on the wall behind me, but there

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Speaker 1: would be a void that you hear doctor Severs talking

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Speaker 1: about where I'm standing. That's an easy way to explain

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Speaker 1: the accurate discussion that doctor high Deceivers just gave you

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Speaker 1: something really important that hasn't been mentioned today. So the

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Speaker 1: defense is essentially saying that Paul was shot and at

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Speaker 1: the top of the head and that went out of

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Speaker 1: his shoulder. The prosecution said, no way, it went through

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Speaker 1: his shoulder, through the top of the head. And what

402
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 1: we haven't heard from about today is that there is

403
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Speaker 1: damage to the door that was above Paul's head, indicating

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Speaker 1: that he was shot as the prosecution stated, going from

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Speaker 1: the shoulder to his head, and not as the defense stated,

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Speaker 1: where you know the gun was pushed directly onto his head,

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Speaker 1: because if the gun was he was shot on the head,

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't have damage on the door frame above his head.

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Speaker 1: You know what. You're so right, and that is something

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Speaker 1: that everyone can understand and it makes perfect sense. So

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Speaker 1: what they're doing today is there somewhat telling the jury

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Speaker 1: and sinuating to the jury that the shooter is tall.

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Speaker 1: Murdog is about six three or so. We think. Dan

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Speaker 1: Corsettino joining me, former ployee's chief, former sheriff, served on

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Speaker 1: US and Security Senior Advisory Board. He's a PI at

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Speaker 1: Dan Corsettino dot com. Dan, I want you to hear

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Speaker 1: our sought seven. Take listen. This is Hartpootlian direct examining

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Speaker 1: the pathologist. Okay, so when you look at the wound

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Speaker 1: in his shoulder and his neck and of course his head,

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Speaker 1: tell us where doctor Rhema got it wrong. I think

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Speaker 1: she hasn't reversed. If the entrance wound is here on

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Speaker 1: the left shoulder and we're saying that we're at least

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Speaker 1: three to four feet away from there because we have

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Speaker 1: no soot, we have no stippling on the skin. Then

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Speaker 1: by the time it gets to the left side of

426
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: the chin or over here at the angle of the

427
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: mandible the jaw, we've lost a lot of energy. And

428
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: so yes, you can get some pellets still going up

429
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: into the head, but you're not going to have the

430
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: top of the head completely blown off. And if you

431
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: look at the photograph here, you can see he's missing

432
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 1: the top of his skull. That would not have happened

433
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: three feet or further shotgun wound coming in on the

434
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: left side. Okay, hold on, Dick Corsentino, I want doctor

435
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: Michelle Dupre to take a stab at that, and then

436
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 1: I want to hear from you what you think their

437
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: strategy is right now, why they're asking the questions they

438
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: are asking, and what they're trying to tell the jury.

439
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: What do you make of that? Though, as a medical

440
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: examiner and pathologist, doctor Dupre, well, Nancy, I've actually had

441
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 1: cases where the top of the head was blown off

442
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: when the shotgun was three feet or so away, And again,

443
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: it depends on so many things. Is what we call

444
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 1: the choke on that shotgun, what is the length of

445
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: the barrel, all of those kinds of things. But I

446
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: do not believe that this was a contact well into

447
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 1: the back of the head. The rest of the trajectory

448
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: just doesn't make sense. Dian Corsentino, what is their theory.

449
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: They're making a huge big deal about the double guns,

450
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: that one shooter had double guns, and Dan Korcentina, you're

451
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: perfect for this question. They're at the end of the

452
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: testimony of the second witness. The witness was actually telling

453
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: the jury that after killing one person that would have

454
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 1: been Paul, that the shooter would have been so stunned

455
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: that they couldn't shoot another person. Mackie, I couldn't believe

456
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: what I was hearing because I have had multiple cases

457
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: of homicide with multiple victims at the hands of one shooter.

458
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: Frankly and sadly, it happens all the time. But the

459
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: defense witness actually told the jury that the shooter would

460
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: have been so shell shocked and so covered with matter

461
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: that he could not get another gun and pull the trigger.

462
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 1: And I have illegal tournament by that, bs. I'm sure

463
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: you're familiar with that cot out. Yeah, absolutely, Nancy, And

464
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 1: first of all, thank you. I completely disagree with the

465
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: defense expert in a situation because of the fact that

466
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: we've had many cases where one shooter had multiple victims,

467
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 1: and I agree with you, and the fact that the

468
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: victim or the shooter in this case would have been

469
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: stunned or had a temporary thought process that was completely clouded.

470
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: I don't buy that whatsoever. I think the mindset of

471
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: the shooter at this point in time was clearly to

472
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: shoot both individuals, and that individual clearly knew what the

473
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: job was for the long term gain. And as far

474
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: as trying to cloud the jury, I think that's all

475
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: that the defense is trying to do in this is

476
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: just to throw mud on this case, because in totality,

477
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: they're going to take a look at the very basics

478
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: of this case. Was their motive, was their opportunity, was

479
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: their ability? And does the science match those components? And

480
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: I think that it's becoming clear. What's really interesting is

481
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: the maturation of the jurors. They come into this case

482
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: with a blank chalkboard or an empty journal, and they

483
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: start now to compartmentalize everything the prosecution and defense is saying,

484
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: and they're going to reach a conclusion which I think

485
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: is going to be not surprising to many. You know

486
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: Mark Pepper listening to Karsentino, he lays it out so plainly.

487
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it's I don't know what I would even

488
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: cross on this, because it is absurd to tell a

489
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: jury or make a statement that one person would be

490
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: so discombobulated and so shell shot. They can't they can't

491
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: kill two people at once. It happens every day. I

492
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: don't even know how many cases I've handled where they're

493
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: multiple crime victims at the hands of one shooter. I

494
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: get it, I get it right. But let me play

495
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: Devil's advocate just a bit using some of what I've

496
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: heard and analyze the last two three minutes. One is

497
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: I totally agree with the expert panelists that the doctor

498
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: with the blowback and the void, if you will, what

499
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: they're trying to accomplish the defense is they've moved on

500
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: from this low lying shooter that was a twelve year old,

501
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: or what they're just saying. Look, we're going to stick

502
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: to our theme that there's no possible way Alec Murdoch

503
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: murdered his wife and son, as evidenced by the fact

504
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: that you heard from two witnesses today. And this is

505
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: them talking, not me, just making the argument, okay, that

506
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: this shooter or shooters would have been covered in matter,

507
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: in blood. You got the bullet that goes the pellet

508
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: that goes way up. Maybe it makes sense to a juror.

509
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: May not make sense to our panelists here or me

510
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: are you, but it might with one juror, And it

511
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: takes two to tango, but it only takes one to

512
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: hang it up. And that's really what the defense is doing.

513
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: They're gonna run all this back through and spit it

514
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: out an enclosing say, if you believe what any of

515
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: what we said, then you believe it's impossible that this

516
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: man would have done this to his own flesh and blood.

517
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: That's going to be their theory here. And I agree

518
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: with Mark, right, go ahead. No, I was just gonna say,

519
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: I agree with Mark saying they're trying to raise reasonable doubt.

520
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: There's no doubt about that. So if we look at

521
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: the totality of the circumstances in this, that's the question.

522
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: Do they raise reasonable doubt based on everything you know?

523
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: I'm curious to Dr Michelle Dupree regarding the entry and

524
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:55,959
Speaker 1: exit wounds on Paul's body. That is elementary. You can,

525
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: even I, who am just a lawyer, and look at

526
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: a wound and tell an entry from an exit. Could

527
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: you please explain that's very plain to the naked eye. Absolutely, Nancy.

528
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: And again there are many things that we look at.

529
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: Typically the entrance wound is smaller than the exit wound.

530
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: Not always, but in this case I think that it

531
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: would be. But we also look for something called an

532
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: abrasion rim. When a bullet goes into a body, it

533
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: does stretch the skin, and the abrasion ring is on

534
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: the side that tells us the trajectory from where the

535
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: bullet came. One of the witnesses was talking about skin

536
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: tags and that's basically sort of the same thing. It's

537
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: going to tell us where that projectile came from and

538
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: it will help us determine that trajectory. And also, when

539
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: we talk about Maggie and being two shooters, do you

540
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: really think that a second shooter who was just waiting

541
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: there to shoot Maggie is going to shoot her in

542
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: the leg and two other places before the final last

543
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: two shots, the fatal shots those were number four and five.

544
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: That doesn't make sense either. You want your first shot

545
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: to be the kill shot. You know what, You're right,

546
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: and that is exactly what's being advanced in the courtroom. Guys,

547
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: we were telling you about Paul's injuries and how that

548
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: is being used by the experts on the stand. Take

549
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut five. Now, this depicts Maggie's

550
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: body on the autopsy table, and when we're doing our

551
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: measurements on a body, that's how we're looking at the

552
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: body lying on her back or on the person's back

553
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: on the autopsy table. Here is that wound with the

554
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: left ear and the left chin, and here's her left breast,

555
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: and then right above this wound, here we have that

556
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: semicircle which is consistent with the earring. So this is

557
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: the shot you would disagree with doctor Reemer about, Yes,

558
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: this is the only shot I disagree. She stated that

559
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: it was going upwards. Who would have entered the breast

560
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: and then gone up right? When we look closer at

561
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: the breast and we look close, are at the right

562
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: the left side of the chin, skin tags are pointing upwards,

563
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: showing that that's where the bullet came from. It just

564
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: seems very odd that when you have one going this way,

565
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 1: you have to be in a very bizarre position to

566
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: be able to get it to go up. But from

567
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: the scientific standpoint, it's it's how the wound looks, okay.

568
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: And as far as what they're doing in the courtroom,

569
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: Mark Pepper, it's always a good thing to get your

570
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 1: witness off. The witness stand and down in the well

571
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: in front of the jury. That's right, that's right. You

572
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: want to make them personal, somebody they can relate to.

573
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: You get lost in the sauce when you just hear yes,

574
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 1: no questions from somebody sitting ten twelve feet away. Anytime

575
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 1: you can pull a witness off, anytime you can hand

576
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: them a pointer or an easel or an exhibit that

577
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: they can stand in front of the jury, that's their show.

578
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: I mean, the jury then makes eye contact with this

579
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: witness and judges their credibility versus forgetting what the heck

580
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: they said because it was the day before or the

581
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 1: day before that. They're gonna remember that testimony tonight. They're

582
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: gonna remember the testimony of anybody that stands two feet

583
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: in front of them. This is a very tiny courthouse

584
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: in Walterboro, South Carolina. Everybody's on top of each other

585
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: and so when you get a chance to bring a

586
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: witness down and look these jurors in the eyes, likely

587
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: to leave an impact. It is exactly why both the

588
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: state in the defense continuously bring your witnesses down. Great point, Nancy, Yah, yeah,

589
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: go ahead please Okay. So, Also, when we're talking about

590
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: Maggie's wound to the head, you heard it described as

591
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: a keyhole injury, and that is something that is a

592
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: very definitive forensic pathology description. And it's an entrance in

593
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: exit in a skull that typically has babbling, which again

594
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: we heard talked about, and that clearly tells us which

595
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: is the entrance in, which is the exit side of

596
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 1: that wound. It's basically a tangential in and out almost

597
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: and that is what was described by doctor remark. Guys. Also,

598
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: the witnesses are testifying through a certain lens, the lens

599
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: of high dollar payments to the witnesses. Now does that

600
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: make them less believable in the eyes of the gerars?

601
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I can tell you this, a

602
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: state's witness is on a salary. They don't get a

603
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: bonus or a raise if they go testify in a case.

604
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 1: As compared to the tens of thousands of dollars. These

605
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: witnesses are being paid. Take a listen to our cut nine.

606
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 1: Doctor Reemer performed autopsy here, and she performed an independent autopsy.

607
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: She didn't. Did she perform an autopsy of either of

608
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: the victims in this case? I did not. And you

609
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 1: reled on. I think you testified that dotor Remer's report,

610
00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: X rays, crime scene photos and autopsy photos in determining

611
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: your opinion. That's correct. And you were higher right, Yes,

612
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: I was, And you were here on Friday, weren't you.

613
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: I was, So that would mean you've made over ten

614
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: thousand dollars in evaluating or taking part in this case

615
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. That's correct too, doctor Heideceivers,

616
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 1: Doctor Sivers. Of course, independent experts are going to be paid.

617
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: And that's neither here nor there, except you know, if

618
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: they were not going to say with the defense and

619
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: wanted them to say, they would not be called as

620
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: an expert. But what do you make of the testimony

621
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: regarding blood stains, Regarding the stains on the door, the

622
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: blood spatter. A lot was made toward the end of

623
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: the testimony of the second witness about a bloody footprint

624
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 1: and the witness, who is Tim Paul Bock tried to

625
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 1: suggest to the Garars that it was the killer's footprint

626
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: or the killer's plural footprint toil long Cross. Savannah Good said,

627
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: they didn't give you the report that that's Paul's footprint,

628
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,439
Speaker 1: and he said, no, I didn't say that that had hurt. Yeah,

629
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: that was a rough blow for him certainly. Well, first,

630
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: just like I was saying a little bit earlier with

631
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: those trigger words, is what I call it. So first

632
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 1: and foremost, with the door, he had mentioned that it

633
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: had downward what he called trajectory, but we use the

634
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: term directionality, so that it had downward directionality, suggesting that

635
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: it had that little bit of a fountain effect as

636
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: it came up over the shooter's shoulder and deposited downward.

637
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: But from the photos I've seen what I think he's

638
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: terming as that is actually what we would call more

639
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: of a gravity flow stain. When you're dealing with something

640
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: of that proportion, when it comes with velocity as well

641
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: as the amount out of biological material being pushed back

642
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: right or the backspatter back towards the shooter, it's going

643
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: to be too much for the surface tension to just

644
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: stick right on that door, so it's going to start

645
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: to flow downwards. And I think he's using that as

646
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,879
Speaker 1: what he's calling trajectory or directionality, and that has nothing

647
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: to do with the way it was deposited. It has

648
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: everything to do with the weight of that biological material,

649
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: whether it be blood or brain matter, sliding down that

650
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: door as a result of gravity. So that's first and

651
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: foremost that I noticed, because there is directionality of those

652
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 1: stains going upward with what you would expect from a

653
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: shot going up from the shoulder through the head up

654
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: towards the door, which if you notice, follows the path

655
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: of those indentations in the door and the small pellets

656
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 1: in the door frame. Right, it's all going to fall.

657
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: I've another I've got another expert here. She's saying, T

658
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: shirt expert, apparently, what's your Kathy Lee? Okay, okay, don't

659
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: trust your soul to know Backwood Southern lawyer. Okay. There

660
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: are now T shirts just saying and it's all over

661
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: the world, now, thank you. I just have thank you

662
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: crime stories with Nancy Grace, So apparently there are Murdock

663
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,439
Speaker 1: T shirts now. Just wanted everybody to know that they're

664
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: all around the courthouse, And to you, Mark Pepper, that's

665
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: exactly what I'm talking about about a mistrial when the

666
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: jury leaves the bubble of the courtroom, increasing the chance

667
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: without a doubt. I think we're gonna have a mistrial

668
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: here anyway, because I don't think there's gonna be a

669
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 1: unanimous verdict. But if there is, we're running the risk

670
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 1: of mistrial appeals, you name it. And putting them on

671
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: a bus for a field trip. I mean we're gonna

672
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: do a bag lunch too, And I mean we curfew

673
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: is they're gonna be allowed to talk to each other,

674
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: because obviously that's not allowed. There's another mistrial. We're going

675
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: down a slippery slope here. I agree. And when Mark

676
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: Pepper says, hey, guys, he's a high profile defense attorney

677
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,479
Speaker 1: joining us out of this jurisdiction the Pepper Law Firm.

678
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 1: When he says the Gerards can't talk to each other,

679
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: what we mean by that is they can't talk about

680
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: the case with each other. They can say, Hi, what

681
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: did you do this weekend? What time? How far away

682
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: do you live? What do you have a family? They

683
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 1: can talk about that, but how long is that going

684
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: to last how long until somebody says, what is murnog

685
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 1: eating at the defense table? What is that cracking sound?

686
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,399
Speaker 1: You know they're gonna talk about the case and then

687
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a mistrial. Guys, I want to get

688
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: off of the T shirt and off of the candy

689
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: cracking at the defense table. I want you to take

690
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut ten And this is more

691
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: about the blood spatter. Why is it important? Because today,

692
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 1: with their own witness their own witnesses, the defense is

693
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: seemingly suggesting that they themselves were all wrong about the

694
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,479
Speaker 1: short shooter. Actually, the shooter is tall and on. Wasn't

695
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: the top of a pause call missing? Yes it was?

696
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 1: And Paul's face it wasn't blown off, was it? It

697
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 1: was not? His brains weren't splatter all over the floor.

698
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: His brain left his head and ended up being on

699
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: the floor. There were some smaller pieces and other areas,

700
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: and then a large piece in one area. Does that

701
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: brain look macerated or splattered everywhere? No, but that brain

702
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 1: has been extruded from the head. But when you zoom

703
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 1: in on it, you can tell that there's injury to

704
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: the brain. But the brain, yes, I agree, it's not macerated.

705
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: That blood spatter on top of the door that looks

706
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: like blood spatter at the top of the door, yes,

707
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 1: and no bloods patter out there on the sidewalk from

708
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 1: his brain being blown out from his head and his

709
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: face being left intact right right though the brain would

710
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,240
Speaker 1: come out the top of the head. And the bloods

711
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: patterns on the top of the door, right, that's blowback,

712
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: that's from here, the pressure pushing a powards you know,

713
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: Kelly's skin. They keep mentioning that the shooter would have

714
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: to be covered in bodily fluid blowback blood. Well, that

715
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: just backs in, that rear ends into the state's theory

716
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: that Murdoch then went in and took a shower and

717
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 1: changed clothes. It does beg the question of did Murdoco

718
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: take a shower after shooting Maggie and Paul. We still

719
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: do not know that it's unconfirmed, but that seems like

720
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: the picture that the prosecution is trying to paint with

721
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: testimony thus far. And it also seems like the defenses

722
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 1: shooting themselves in the foot in a sense. With these

723
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: witnesses today who have conceded on the stand that yes,

724
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 1: the shooter could have been taller than Maggie and Paul.

725
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: So it's in direct contradiction to what we were hearing

726
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 1: from them last week that the shooter is two inches tall. Well, Kelly,

727
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: Court me if I'm wrong, But hasn't there been testimony

728
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: that Murdock was wearing one outfit in the afternoon, one

729
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 1: outfit when the cops got there and there was a

730
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 1: pool of water by the shower in the Moselle property

731
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,760
Speaker 1: bathroom and there was a damp towel and his shirt

732
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,320
Speaker 1: that he was wearing that afternoon has never been recovered.

733
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: That to me, if it looks like a duck and

734
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 1: it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck,

735
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: it is a duck. He took a shower. Yeah, we

736
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 1: have heard a lot about the outfit changes. We've heard

737
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 1: a lot about what clothes was he wearing that night.

738
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: Keeps close in his car, he keeps clothes at various

739
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: different people's homes. Where are the clothes that he was

740
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 1: wearing that night is a big, big, big question. So

741
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: I mean to me, day Courseutina, I don't know about you,

742
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: be blunt, but that fits head in hand with the

743
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: fact that we believe that he went in and took

744
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,760
Speaker 1: a shower at some point. Yeah, I believe that there's

745
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: a you know, circumstantial evidence to believe that he went

746
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 1: in took a shower. I also believe that this was

747
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 1: a planned event and that it fits the pattern in

748
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: its totality of all the other information that the prosecution

749
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: is trying to bring out, and it starts with his

750
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: own financial insolvency and it evolves from there. The only

751
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: thing Mark Pepper is but the timeline so tight between

752
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 1: that video for a friend Rogan Gibson and immediately leaving

753
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 1: for his mother's house, that doesn't give him time for

754
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 1: a shower right there. But we know he changed clothes,

755
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: and we know those clothes that Surett has never been recovered,

756
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: along with the murder weapons go ahead, Mark, murder weapons

757
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,720
Speaker 1: certainly has not been recovered. But there's still two witnesses left, Nancy,

758
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: and I'm not so sure that ce foam green shirt

759
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: that we've seen on the tree snapchat is still missing.

760
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: And I'm told that there may be one more trick

761
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 1: up Dick's sleeve to show the lack of the investigation

762
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: done by SLED. That's theme one, right two. Theme two

763
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: is timeline. To your point, if today's testimony did anything

764
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: for the defense to there to help them, it's to

765
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: tighten the timeline up to where the state has already

766
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: put it. You've got an eight fifty six excuse me,

767
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: eight forty six snapchat phones go dead, and I believe

768
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 1: eight forty nine if I'm not mistaken, and then we

769
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 1: know the cell phone starts at ten O six. Between

770
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:54,399
Speaker 1: ten O two and ten O six, we got two

771
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: hundred forty eight steps. I don't know that the jury

772
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: is going to think that there's enough time for him

773
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: to have made it all the way back up to Moselle, showered,

774
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 1: disposed of the clothes, disposed of the weapons, and still

775
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: be on his way to his parents' house. The defense

776
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 1: better hope that the jury doesn't think that, because if

777
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: they do, coupled with the financial four be stuff we

778
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 1: talked about earlier, then I think the defendant is in trouble. Yeah.

779
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 1: I don't think there's any way he could have taken

780
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 1: the shower right there, go ahead, doctor Duprie. So, Nancy,

781
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: I think that it's much more likely that he may

782
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 1: have taken a shower earlier that night, as evidence by

783
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: the clothes on the floor and the pool of water.

784
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 1: But don't forget the hose was unraveled and there was

785
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: water there. What was to prevent him from showering off

786
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: right there at the scene, having closed in his car,

787
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: ready to dispose of when he did go to his

788
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: mother's house. You know what, you're so right, Dodge Michelle

789
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 1: d Kelly's skin. We completely discounted what she just said

790
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 1: about the water hose, and one of the first things

791
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: that was noticed is the pools of water in the kennel.

792
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: So that's exactly I mean, there's no way he can

793
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,879
Speaker 1: fit a shower in after the shooting get in the car.

794
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 1: We know what time he got in the car started

795
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: driving because it's on his navigation system from his suburban.

796
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: There's not time for a shower there. She's right, The

797
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: shower was earlier in the day go ahead, and pools

798
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 1: of water that weren't tested, so we don't know what

799
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: exactly was in that pool pool of water. Was alex

800
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: DNA in that pool of water and something else? As

801
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: we never heard from any of the any of Alec

802
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 1: Murdoch's mother's caretakers. I'd be curious to know what's his

803
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: hair when he showed up that night, because we've heard

804
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: today from the defensive witnesses that Alec would have a

805
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: bunch of spatter in his thick hair. So if he

806
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: did shower off using the hose at the kennels, was

807
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: his hair wet when he showed off at his mom's house.

808
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 1: I'd like to know. That's a really good question. Go ahead, Nancy.

809
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: This is Dan and I just have a comment. This

810
00:48:54,360 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 1: case is extremely complicated in many ways, and I think

811
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: one of the things leading to potential mistrial is the

812
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: fact that will the jury be able to simplify this

813
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: case and extract the science to put it into some

814
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: believable judgment that they can make toward guilt or innocence.

815
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 1: And certainly I can't speak for jurors. I don't know

816
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 1: the jury i Q. I don't know where they come from.

817
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: But I will say that when you get the little

818
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 1: things such as in the feeding room, if you will,

819
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: in the defense expert is bringing out that the partial

820
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 1: footprints in the blood and around the feed room there

821
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: should have been spray enhancements. If I'm sitting on a jury,

822
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: I'm starting to ask questions about that. Why weren't the

823
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 1: little things done in this guys, I want you to

824
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: hear a little bit more of the testimony now in

825
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: this juncture you hear a witness actually agreeing with the

826
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 1: state experts in our cut twelve. So, I frankly think

827
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: he was startled by that shot. White shoulder was the door.

828
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: I mean, if he knew somebody was coming and or

829
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: saw somebody coming, he would be facing the door or

830
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: attorney trying to run, which he wouldn't have anywhere to go.

831
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,760
Speaker 1: But he was essentially facing this way and the doors

832
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,919
Speaker 1: this way. I don't think he even perceived it until

833
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,319
Speaker 1: he was shot the first time. And you asked the question,

834
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: did I see any defensive injuries or any indication of

835
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: defensive actions on hammer in the feed room? The answers no,

836
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: What type of defensive indications have you seen in the

837
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 1: past that would indicate that there was a struggle of

838
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 1: some sort. Well, I think obviously your hands always kind

839
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: of come up, and his hands would be going up

840
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: in the direction of the shooter and the weapon. His

841
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 1: hands coming up means that he likely they could have

842
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: been injured. Certainly there could be gunshot residue distribution on them.

843
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 1: Could that be the main difference so Kelly's can. I

844
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 1: think it's agreed all around that Paul never saw what

845
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,720
Speaker 1: was coming. I don't think Paul or Maggie ever saw

846
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 1: what was coming that night now, and that also suggests

847
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 1: that if it were to be Murdoch, that he could

848
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: get up close to them and their proximity in that

849
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 1: small area of the feed room and they would not

850
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 1: know what was about to happen, as opposed to an

851
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:30,839
Speaker 1: intruder that they had never seen before, someone coming up

852
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: on them that would make them run. Kelly, what did

853
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: you notice about the girars? How did they appear to you? Sure? So?

854
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,760
Speaker 1: On that note too, we also know from Alec Murdoch's

855
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 1: own testimony that he says no one else was there

856
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: that night that shouldn't have been, and the dogs were

857
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,919
Speaker 1: not acting like there was a stranger around just five

858
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: minutes before Maggie and Paul's phones went silent forever. I

859
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: saw some very interesting body language from the jury today.

860
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: They saw a lot of graphic autopsy photos, and a

861
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: lot of them had various different reactions. One juror literally

862
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: pulled a blanket up over her forehead. Others were looking

863
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:13,240
Speaker 1: down somewhere wincing, and others were like very intently looking

864
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: at the screen in front of them. There were very

865
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: very graphic images. And I think something else that should

866
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: be noted today too, is that when Dick Harpulian said

867
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 1: he wanted the jury to go to Moselle, he wanted

868
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: the jury to vote on that. The judge said, that's

869
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 1: pretty unheard of. And also having the jury vote on

870
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: whether or not to go to Moselle opens the jury

871
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: up to have conversations about the case before deliberations actually start,

872
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: therefore possibly leading to a mistrial. You know, to you,

873
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,959
Speaker 1: Mark Pepper, have you ever seen a defense attorney intentially

874
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 1: insert reversible error into a case, such as suggesting the

875
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:55,760
Speaker 1: jarars conduct a vote as to whether they go to Moselle.

876
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 1: That would absolutely shrigger discussion about the case, which is

877
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 1: not allowed prior to deliberations. Right. I've never seen them

878
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: insert purposely a reason for a mistrial, but I have

879
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: seen them lay the traps for a mistrial, just as

880
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: Dick did today and has done in some other arguments

881
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 1: where they actually wanted some testimony in but they fought

882
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: a motion to suppress that testimony to force the state

883
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 1: to bring it up and then whether or not it

884
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,320
Speaker 1: opens the door. What Dick was doing this morning was

885
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: trying to play the all shucks, judge, if the jury

886
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: wants to do it, you know, I'd like to do

887
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,919
Speaker 1: it as well, But it's up to the jury. He knows.

888
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: Judge Newman can't go ask the jury that. But what

889
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 1: if you would have there's yet another appealable issue if

890
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: there's a conviction, or if he would have said, yeah, sure,

891
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: I'll do it. Did some mistrial, or if he says

892
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 1: what he did, say no, that's unheard of. You know

893
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 1: that if you want it, though you got it, you're

894
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 1: setting the stage for a potential mistrial. That seems to

895
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,800
Speaker 1: be some type of strategy that the defense is employed.

896
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 1: Remember these are the defense lawyers whose own client rejected

897
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: their advice and said, I appreciate your advice, but I

898
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 1: reject it and I will be taking the stand. These

899
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 1: folks are doing everything they can to protect him. Now

900
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: I suppose they're doing everything to make sure he doesn't

901
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: get convicted in any scenario possible, and that's their job.

902
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: What do you think about the two gun theory, because

903
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: who better than Alex and Murdoch to come up with

904
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:50,959
Speaker 1: a mode of murder that would suggest to assailants. He's

905
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: been a prosecutor, he's tried many, many cases, he's been

906
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 1: in on investigations. Well, you know, he's not afraid to

907
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: pull out his fake badge, put his blue light going

908
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: in his private vehicle. If you wanted to fake out

909
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,879
Speaker 1: a jury, what better way than to use two weapons. Well,

910
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,320
Speaker 1: the only one I can come up with is that

911
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:17,320
Speaker 1: you hire somebody to do it. I personally give it

912
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 1: all that background. You're absolutely right, he's a former prosecutor,

913
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 1: some say current, he carries a badge. He obviously lives

914
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: in the legal arena in that world, speaks the language.

915
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: I still personally just don't think he's smart enough to

916
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 1: have done this on his own. What I do think

917
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 1: is that he used his relationships or is certainly that's

918
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: a plausible explanation for as I drive off, the two

919
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 1: shooters or one shooter comes up and the guns will

920
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: be there, or maybe they already have them. You know,

921
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 1: again we're speculating at this point, but that's exactly what

922
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: the defense lawyers are going to do in their closing

923
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: is offer some alternative explanations to just get the jury

924
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 1: to hesitate to act as to whether to convict the defendant. Well,

925
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 1: you know another thing, Dan Corcentina with me, former police chief,

926
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:14,320
Speaker 1: former sheriff, served on US Helmet Security Senior Advisory Board,

927
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:19,399
Speaker 1: now private investigator. Dan, I don't believe I have ever

928
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 1: once seen a murder conspiracy or somebody didn't blab. I mean,

929
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 1: I think that's virtually impossible. Exactly in Colorado, We've had

930
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:36,399
Speaker 1: at least two or three murder for hires actually during

931
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,800
Speaker 1: my career that I've been involved in, and one of

932
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 1: those individuals has shared information with a third party in

933
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: the case was broke wide open. I mean, you're absolutely right, Nancy,

934
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 1: someone's going to talk if that was the case. In

935
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: my professional opinion, I think the question for me becomes

936
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 1: on June seventh, between the hours of when we speculate

937
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: this murder took place, why at that moment in time,

938
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: when Maggie and Paul were killed, why is that so

939
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:19,479
Speaker 1: much outside the norm of Alex Murdock's plan for everything else,

940
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: everything else he's done in his life has been orchestrated.

941
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 1: There's been a pattern, and why isn't this part of

942
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 1: that pattern? It just seems unusual to me. When you

943
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 1: fit it with his personality, that there being anomaly here.

944
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 1: And of course, guys, we're about to head back in

945
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 1: the courtroom. But while this is not a standard of proof,

946
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 1: it can certainly be argued by the state. Who in

947
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 1: the world would want Maggie and Paul dead. The best

948
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 1: the defense has come up with so far is a

949
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 1: random vigilante for what because they read something a line

950
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 1: and got mad and then decided to show up at

951
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: the law hope there were going to be guns there

952
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 1: and kill Paul and Maggie. It's crazy, it's outlandish, it's fantastical.

953
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 1: That did not happen. So the jury is going to

954
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 1: have to sort through potential motives as well. Okay, I'm

955
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: hearing in my ear people are starting to kneel back

956
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: into the courtroom. Let's go straight back to the courthouse. Everybody,

957
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: we're alive here at Carleton County and we're going back

958
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 1: into the courtroom. Thank you to the guests, and thank

959
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 1: you to you for being with us. Goodbye, everybody.