WEBVTT - Shifts at Justice Dept & Sanctuary Cities Challenged 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:13.280 As President Donald Trump's agenda faces growing pushback from the 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:19.160 federal courts, top administration officials are openly questioning the judiciary's 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:22.560 authority to serve as a check on the president. After 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:27.319 a Manhattan federal judge blocked Elon Musk's efficiency team from 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:32.839 accessing Treasury Department information, must call for impeaching the judge 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:37.519 and Vice President JD. Vance, a graduate of Yale Law School, 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:41.640 wrote on x that judges aren't allowed to control the 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:46.120 executive's legitimate power. Trump didn't back away from that. 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:47.880 Well, we're going to see what happens. 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:51.120 We have a long way to go, and we're talking 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:55.880 about fraud, waste, abuse, and when a president can't look 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:57.800 for fraud and waste and abuse, we don't have a 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.600 country anymore. So we're very disappointed, but with the judges 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:03.880 that would make such a ruling, But we have a 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:05.600 long way to go. We have to look, we have 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:07.960 to find all of the fraud that's going on. We 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:14.280 have tremendous fraud, tremendous waste, and tremendous abuse and theft. 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:17.040 By the way, and today you're not allowed to look 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.440 for theft and fraud, etc. Then we don't have much 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:24.440 of a country. So no judge should be No judge 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:26.520 should frankly be allowed to make that kind of a 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:27.959 decision as a disgrace. 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.080 Joining me is constitutional law. Professor David Souper of Georgetown 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:36.399 Law JD. Vance said judges aren't allowed to control the 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:41.440 executive's legitimate power fair enough, but he's often argued that 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:46.480 presidents can and should ignore court orders they say infringe 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:51.320 on their rightful executive powers, quoting Andrew Jackson, who said 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.760 the Chief Justice has made his ruling, now let him 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:58.040 enforce it. I mean when the vice president and a 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:02.120 Yell educated lawyer says that, is it concerning. 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:08.280 It certainly is worrying. And presidents and other high officials 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:12.359 who have been engaged in illegal conduct have been saying 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:16.520 that for over two hundred years. But it's no less 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:21.680 disturbing when it happened. Of course, courts can't issue illegitimate orders, 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.040 but the solution when they do that is to appeal them. 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.839 Trump has been stopped at least temporarily by about eight 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:32.639 judges nine judges, and the theory is, well, he's testing 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:34.959 the limits, so that this will go to the Supreme 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.519 Court and expand his presidential authority. I mean, do you 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.079 think it goes that far or it's just he's doing 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:41.760 what he wants? 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:44.440 Oh, I think it does go that far. There's a 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:48.560 few of these issues that are arguably separate, such as 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:52.480 the birthright citizenship, where he's violating not a statute but 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:57.480 the Constitution itself. But for the most part, he's going 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:01.919 out of his way to violate statue that say how 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:06.360 the federal government should operate, and in doing that, he's 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:08.880 setting out the test case about whether any of these 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.320 statutes find him at all. Some of the things he's 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:13.280 trying to do, they are legal ways to do it, 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:16.200 and he hasn't tried to do it legally. He's deliberately 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:18.240 violated the statue to set up a fight. 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:20.600 What are some of the things he's done or one 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:22.680 of the things he's done that he could have done legally. 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:27.800 He could have done a buyout under existing BIOT authority 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:33.080 that requires an agency specific examination of how many people 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:37.200 they want to leave and in what positions, but he 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.400 didn't bother to use that authority. He did something completely 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:44.520 illegal with this mass email that's likely to cause us 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.560 to lose. Precisely, the federal workers we can't afford to lose. 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:52.720 So, turning to Attorney General Pam Bondi, she issued fourteen 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:57.320 first day directives. So a new memo warns the Justice 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:01.360 Department attorneys against refusing to advance it's legal arguments they 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:02.160 disagree with. 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:03.200 Is this the way the. 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:06.280 Justice Department normally works, you know, you get an assignment 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:10.320 and you argue the side that the Justice Department takes, 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:12.600 or is this something different? 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:18.039 Well, lawyers are always required to act in the best 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:21.120 interests that they're client, to the extent permitted by law 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:25.000 and legal ethics, so it's not surprising that a lawyer 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:28.359 might make an argument that if they were a judge 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:33.560 they would rule against. That's ordinary. But the implication here 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:37.800 is that lawyers might be required to make arguments that 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:41.960 they regard as frivolous, and that is generally not allowed. 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:46.039 In legal ethics. We expect lawyers to make good faith 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.840 arguments to courts, not silly ones, and this could be 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:51.520 read as requiring the latter. 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:55.800 The Justice Department is supposed to be independent from the 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:56.520 White House. 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:58.080 Is that always the case? 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:00.880 Though? Are there times when the Justice Department and the 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:03.080 White House work closely together. 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:03.800 Well. 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:07.200 The Justice Department is part of the executive branch, and 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:11.720 it is supposed to serve the nation's interests under the 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:15.679 general guidance of the President. But it's always been understood 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.960 that because they're dealing with law, and because the role 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:24.559 of lawyers, particularly government lawyers, is very sensitive, the Justice 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:28.280 Department has to be free to honor the law and 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:33.239 to honor its obligations to only make legitimate arguments in court. 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.880 And I think it's already been happening in some of 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:41.720 these cases where judges see the Justice Department's arguments as 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.040 just frivolous. For example, in the cases over you mentioned 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:49.880 birthright citizenship, where it seems to be pretty clear cut 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.520 that Trump can't do that. So does the Justice Department 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.920 risk losing credibility with the judiciary? 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.640 Yes, and I think that's already starting to have. Some 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:02.920 of the arguments that have been put forward, not just 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:07.440 in the birthright citizenship case, but in the funding freeze 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:12.040 cases have been very strange, and the judges have commented 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:14.880 on them. A judge in one of the funding freeze 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:20.359 cases said that the government lawyers were claiming that the 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:25.880 executive agencies must follow the president's priorities. There's no executive 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:29.200 agencies must follow the law because even the president is 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:33.560 consciously required to take care that the laws be faithfully executed. 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.760 In one of the memos on the first day, Bondi 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:41.480 created a Weaponization Working Group, which strikes me as an 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:45.920 ironic name to say the least she's targeting for investigation. 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:50.679 There special counsel Jack Smith, New York ag Letitia James, 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:55.279 Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg Justice Department personnel who worked 0:06:55.320 --> 0:07:01.000 on January sixth, etc. Accusing them of improper investing, gative tactics, 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:06.920 and unethical behavior going after an elected DA in Manhattan? 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:09.680 Is that really the Justice Department's purview? 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:16.280 In principle, there can be violations taken by district attorneys. 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:20.520 Some of the actions in the Civil Rights era were 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:27.200 against people using government powers to perpetuate illegal racist subjugations. 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:31.160 So the fact that someone is a state attorney general 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:36.920 or a district attorney doesn't make them waterproof. But in 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:40.200 this case, the strong implication is is that this is 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:46.480 payback or prosecuting or investigating per boss President Trump. And 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:51.200 if the Justice Department is seen as making decisions based 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:56.160 on the personal interests of officials. Mister Bragg normally prosecuted 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:59.120 mister Trump, but persuaded that a jury of his peers 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:03.320 to convict them counts. Then the Justice Department becomes the 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:06.000 political tool and will have very littlepact. 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.240 We've talked about this with reference to Supreme Court justices. 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.480 But at her confirmation hearing, she said there will never 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:17.320 be an enemies list within the Department of Justice. Here's 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:22.240 Rhode Island Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, a Democrat, questioning her, and 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.320 I'm questioning you right about whether you will enforce an 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:27.880 enemy's list that he announced publicly on television. 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:29.040 Oh, Senator, I'm sorry. 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:31.640 There will never be an enemies list within the Department 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:32.400 of Justice. 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:37.000 And here she's on day one. She's targeting the people 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.960 who are and have been on Trump's enemies list. So 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:43.920 I wonder what is the point of those confirmation hearings. 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.679 The point is what you've just demonstrated, to have the 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:53.720 acknowledge the illegitimacy of this action. There's nothing that Congress 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:57.040 can do any hearing to stop someone who's determined to 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.599 violate the law to do so, but they can have 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:05.199 them acknowledge up the front that what they're on a 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:06.960 plating doing it is impompable. 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:07.559 I think it's a. 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.040 Couple of dozen prosecutors who worked on January sixth cases 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.679 have already been fired. Is there any recourse for them 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:17.480 if they think that their firing was based on the 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.960 position that they took the assignment they were given. 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.520 Certainly there's a strong principle of due process if the 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:29.840 the Preme Court is articulated many times that one must 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.200 be told what the law is and given a chance 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:37.480 to conform one's behavior. Applying while retroactively is inherently improper. 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:42.000 These are people who were given assignments by their lawfully 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:48.559 designated bosses to conduct investigations, and they're now being criticized 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.080 for doing something that's perfectly legal when they did it. 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:56.400 That kind of retroactivity is obviously due process violation. It 0:09:56.440 --> 0:10:00.440 may be a violation of federal laws designed to keep 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.600 government employment from being dis for patronage purposes. 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:06.280 President Trump has outright said he's going to fire the 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.320 FBI agents who are involved, so I guess they have 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:13.520 some evidence there of his intent. So the Department of 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:18.960 Justice has signaled that it's going to use criminal investigations 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:23.319 to root out DEI practices in the private sector. 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:24.880 That's according to one of the. 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:28.600 Executive orders that Trump issued, and then the DOJ memo 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:33.240 calls for specific steps to take within weeks. 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:34.800 I don't even know what to say about that. 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:38.840 I mean, criminal investigations for DEI policies. 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:43.000 Well, it's quite remarkable. I can see why they keep 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:47.280 using the initials, because that's saying, we're criminally investing in 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:52.920 you for inclusion. We're criminally investing in you for equity. 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:55.520 Inclusion and equity tend to be the things that the 0:10:55.600 --> 0:11:02.680 law supports, So they're using DEI as a cartoon villain 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.440 rather than looking at what's actually involved in EI programs 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:12.240 are enormously varied, and it's hard to imagine many of 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:16.080 them engaging in any criminal activity any more than any 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:19.079 other program to do that. The notion that they're going 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:23.719 to bring these cases suggest that they're contemplating using the 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:24.800 law for harassment. 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:29.600 Whenever you're charged or complaint is filed against you, it's 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:33.800 a hassle, it's expensive, et cetera. But does this seem 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.880 like something that a judge would dismiss, you know, on 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.560 a summary judgment motion or even before. 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:43.240 Judges generally like to give the prosecution a chance to 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:47.480 be heard, but in a situation like this, when there's 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:51.000 so much evidence that the criminal law will be misused, 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:57.560 the President and other senior officials essentially admitting that I 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:00.920 think judges may feel that the fairest thing to do 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:05.320 is dismiss these cases immediately and not force people who 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.760 are following legitimate workers to go through the sort of burden. 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:11.840 Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, more on 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.440 those Bondy memos and the attack on sanctuary cities. 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:18.319 I'm June Grosse. When you're listening to Bloomberg. 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:24.240 New Attorney General Pam Bondi has unveiled a series of 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:29.400 directives designed to overhaul a justice department President Trump claims 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:34.880 is biased against conservatives. The directives roll back by deministration 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:38.800 policies and align the Justice Department with the priorities of 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:42.800 a White House determined to exert control over federal law 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:48.559 enforcement and purge agencies of career employees it views as disloyal. 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:53.520 I've been talking to Georgetown law professor David super Bondi 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.200 has also ordered the defunding of jurisdictions that refuse to 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:02.359 cooperate with federal immigration authority. So the defunding of sanctuary 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:07.920 cities and states that was tried before with Jeff Sessions, right. 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:14.480 Well, that's very remarkable irony that they would think about 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:19.559 doing this because conservative justices on the Supreme Court held 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.760 that the federal government has no right through dragoons stayed 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:30.000 in local governments, into carrying out its policies. That's a 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:36.439 fundamental tenant of federalism, and mister Trump and other conservatives 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:40.080 have championed federalism, and this is suggesting that state and 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.960 local governments are just sidekicks of the federal government. That's 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:44.920 not constitutional. 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.600 She's reinstating the death penalty, that's been done before. 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:50.640 There's nothing illegal about. 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:51.720 That right now. 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:56.560 So she's also calling for an October seventh task force 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:01.400 seeking justice for victims of the attacking. The ongoing threat 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.600 posed by HAMAS and its affiliates is that in the 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.359 purview of the Attorney General, it sounds like it's foreign affairs. 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.600 It sounds like foreign affairs to me. On some matters. 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:19.200 There can be cooperation between Justice and state Justice and defense, 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:24.160 Justice and CIA. So it's certainly that there could be 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.920 something to investigate there. I'm not privy to what intelligence 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:31.760 they might have. If they don't have more than is 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.000 publicly known, i'd be worried about a fishing trip, but 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:36.120 maybe they do have more. 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:38.040 What they're doing is they're moving. 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:45.160 They're reassigning attorneys within the Justice Department to immigration. So 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:51.000 for example, they're reassigning environmental lawyers and antitrust lawyers to 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:56.480 this sanctuary cities working group. Well, pulling resources from other 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:01.720 areas and concentrating on immigration come at the expense of 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:07.680 the department's other priorities like terrorism and white collar crime. Oh, certainly. 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:14.280 And lawyers develop specialties, develop expertise in my areas of expertise. 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.120 I like to think I'm a good lawyer, but I 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:19.200 can name you twenty areas where I would be completely incompetent. 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.160 I don't practice in those areas. That's true of any lawyer. 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:27.960 So this is a good way of wasting valuable resources 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:34.960 and letting important laws go ignored while pursuing cases that 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:40.320 likely have no merit. Based on what we're publicly aware. 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:42.640 Of of the things that she's planning or at least 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:46.200 she's written memos about. Is there one area that you 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.920 think that is most concerning. 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:52.400 Well, it's the theme. The theme is politicizing the Justice 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:58.200 Department to pursue a particular political agenda. Once we do that, 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.080 then the Justice Department is going to lose something permanently. 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.960 Whoever the next president is will not have a Justice 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.760 Department that is trusted by the courts the way it's 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:09.720 tradiginally has been. 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.160 Some of these orders that he's handed down, let's use 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:17.840 birthright citizenship, because that's so obviously a problem illegal. Whatever 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.680 is he getting legal advice on these from the White 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.360 House Counsel's Office. 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:25.880 Or Justice Department. 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.480 It seems like they're so disconnected some of them from 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.040 basic legal concepts. 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.760 I think piece are written by the people behind Project 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:41.040 twenty twenty five, and those people have an extremely ambitious, 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:46.080 radical agenda of overturning the separation of powers and the 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:50.040 system of checks and balances has guided this country since 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.920 its founding. That's the legal advice is behind all of this. 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:58.440 The rest of what they're doing is hard to take seriously. 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:02.680 You read references to cases in their memos. You go 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:04.960 look up to the case and it says the opposite. 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:09.359 So I don't think this is a serious effort to 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.560 think about what the law is. This is a radical 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:13.639 effort to change. 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.240 With the law is do you think that the Supreme 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:20.320 Court will be receptive to Trump's efforts? 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:21.080 I don't. 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:25.520 The implication of this is that he's not governed by 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:29.120 the law and that the courts have no power over him. 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:38.840 That turns Supreme Court justice into a very modest, relatively 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:44.080 insignificant figure. And I don't think that these justices are 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:50.600 willing to give up their constitutional role and become figureheads. 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.480 I think they want to decide cases based on the 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:58.320 law and president the Trump's theories here are so radical 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.320 that they would great we limit the rule of law 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:02.120 of this country. 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.560 Thank you so much, David. I always enjoy our conversations. 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:10.119 That's Professor David super of Georgetown Law. Turning down to immigration. 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.720 The Justice Department is suing the State of Illinois and 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:18.159 the City of Chicago over their sanctuary city policies. The 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:22.479 lawsuit accuses them of obstructing the enforcement of immigration laws 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.359 as ice and federal agents are ramping up their search 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:31.439 for undocumented immigrants to be deported. Here's borders our Tom Homan. 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:33.840 I would love to rest a bad guy in the 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:36.960 city or county jail, but in sanaturist cities. We don't 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.240 have access, so they're going to release a public safety 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:41.320 threat back into the community, which I think is foolish. 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.120 Puts a community at risk, puts our officers at risk, 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:45.200 and puts the alien at risk. 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.920 But Legal Learned, the deputy director of the Immigrant Rights 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.840 Project for the American Civil Liberties Union, says only federal 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:54.920 authorities can enforce these raids. 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:58.400 I think the states will have very very strong arguments 0:18:58.480 --> 0:18:59.879 that they don't need to cooperate. 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.240 They can obstruct, but they don't need to cooperate it. 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:07.080 Joining me is a Laura Mukherjee, a professor at Columbia 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:11.399 Law School and director of the school's Immigrants Rights Clinic ILERA. 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:15.040 Will you start by explaining what a sanctuary city or 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:15.879 state is. 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:21.399 A sanctuary city or a sanctuary state isn't defined in 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.720 the law in any way. It just means that a 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:30.560 jurisdiction may have some policies that restrict a degree of 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:36.040 cooperation between local law enforcement officers and the federal government. 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:40.760 Ice there is a broad range of policies that different 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:44.560 sanctuary jurisdictions have, so it's not a uniform term. 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:49.840 Attorney General Pam Bondi directed the Justice Department to identify 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:54.479 local governments with policies that impede immigration enforcement, and to 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:58.600 take action where appropriate. The first lawsuit filed by the 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:04.440 Justice Department is against Illinois and Chicago and elected officials there, 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:08.400 including the governor and mayor. Tell us what the administration's 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:09.480 allegations are. 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:14.400 The Trump administration is alleging violations of the supremacy Clause. 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:19.800 They're saying that local Chicago laws, a Cook County ordinance, 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:25.040 and an Illinois state law preempt federal law. They also 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:29.880 the Trump administration also alleges unlawful discrimination against the federal 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:34.280 government and the unlawful regulation of the federal government and 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:39.440 violation of the supremacy Clause. The Trump Department of Justice 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:44.080 is seeking declarations from a federal district court in Chicago 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:48.120 that the state laws and the county and city ordinances 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.959 violate the supremacy Clause and are therefore invalid. 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:56.199 So this state law was first passed in twenty seventeen, 0:20:56.920 --> 0:20:58.560 have there been a tax on it before? 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:04.720 In the first Trump administration, the Trump administration signed an 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:09.159 executive order that is virtually identical to the one that 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:14.000 is currently at issue now that the president signed in 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:19.000 his first days in office and in the first Trump administration, 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:24.159 multiple federal courts deemed that the executive order from that 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:31.879 time was unconstitutionally broad, unconstitutionally coercive against local jurisdictions, and 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:35.240 that was en joined, meaning blocked by the federal courts 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:36.280 from taking effect. 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:40.359 Does it seem likely that the same thing will happen 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:45.119 with this or have they added anything to their lawsuit 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:45.920 to their argument? 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:51.440 I anticipate that the Trump Department of Justice will not 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:56.639 be successful in their litigation in Chicago. It's also worth 0:21:56.760 --> 0:22:01.320 noting that on February seventh, San Francisco, Santa Clara, King 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:06.520 County in Washington, Portland, and New Haven also filed a 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:10.960 lawsuit in the Northern District of California Federal District Court 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:17.400 there alleging that the Sanctuary Jurisdiction executive Order, which would 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:21.760 block sanctuary jurisdictions from receiving billions of dollars in federal funding, 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:29.280 is illegal and unconstitutional. These localities argue that the president's 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:34.959 executive order violates the Tenth Amendment, violates separation of powers 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:39.480 and the spending Clause of the Constitution. These localities further 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:44.320 argue that Trump's new executive orders violates the due process 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:48.439 clause of the US Constitution and a statute called the 0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:54.159 Administrative Procedures Act. I anticipate that these localities will be 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:57.359 successful in blocking that executive order. 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:01.200 On his first day in office, President Donald Trump signs 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:04.720 an executive order calling for federal funds to be cut 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:09.040 off for any local government with sanctuary policies, and Attorney 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:12.119 General Pam Bondi issued a memo calling for the Justice 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:16.320 Department to start enforcing the order. Ellra tell us about 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:16.879 that memo. 0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:22.359 That memo is in tandem with the executive order, and 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:27.840 these localities have sued to stop that executive order and 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:32.879 that February fifth Department of Justice memo from going into effect. 0:23:33.040 --> 0:23:36.480 It's notable that the February fifth Department of Justice memo 0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:42.320 threatens the termination of funding to local jurisdictions and threatens 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:48.320 both civil and criminal prosecution for law enforcement officers and 0:23:48.920 --> 0:23:51.840 other officials in the sanctuary jurisdiction. 0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:55.080 It depends on the city, but are we talking hundreds 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:57.840 of millions or billions of dollars in federal aid to 0:23:57.880 --> 0:23:58.520 these cities? 0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:02.640 Collectively billions of dollars in federal aid to these cities. 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:08.320 So they've also in Trump's executive order vowed to go 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:15.040 after local law enforcement officials who don't cooperate with federal 0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:19.040 immigration enforcement. Did they do that in the last administration. 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:24.720 This threat to pursue both civil and criminal prosecution of 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:28.960 local law enforcement agents and local officials who do not 0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:33.879 cooperate with the federal government on immigration enforcement is new. 0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:39.080 It is also unconstitutional. It clearly violates the Tenth Amendment 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:43.760 and violates a longstanding principle of constitutional law, which is 0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:49.399 called anti commandeering. The federal government cannot commandeer cannot force 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:53.440 localities and states to carry out federal priorities. 0:24:54.240 --> 0:24:58.119 There was a memo allowing ICE to go into sensitive 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:01.440 locations like churches and schools and hospitals. 0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:06.440 Has I stillne that ICE has rescinded the sensitive Locations memo, 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:11.200 which previously stopped ICE from carrying out immigration enforcement in 0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:15.959 locations such as schools, hospitals, places of worship, and public demonstrations. 0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:19.760 As far as we know at this time, there have 0:25:19.920 --> 0:25:27.439 been no immigration enforcement operations in schools nationwide, and in 0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:31.879 the first Trump administration there was very limited immigration enforcement 0:25:31.960 --> 0:25:37.040 taking place in the medical care context. We haven't heard 0:25:37.040 --> 0:25:42.080 of widespread ICE enforcement in the immigration context or in 0:25:42.480 --> 0:25:44.840 houses of worship in this administration. 0:25:45.600 --> 0:25:49.840 New York City, because of possible ice raids at schools, 0:25:49.880 --> 0:25:53.800 some immigrant families are keeping their kids at home, and 0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:57.760 the schools chancellor came out and said that the policy 0:25:57.800 --> 0:26:01.359 at city public schools hasn't changed and basically that a 0:26:01.400 --> 0:26:05.720 warrant is needed. Quote, we unequivocally stand with all children 0:26:05.720 --> 0:26:10.240 in our city, regardless of immigration status. But it seems 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:14.439 like there's fear no matter what the government says. 0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:20.160 The Trump administration has created a pervasive sense of fear 0:26:20.280 --> 0:26:25.119 among immigrant communities nationwide. It is not surprising that after 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:28.800 the recision of the Sensitive Locations memo, the number of 0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:33.800 children attending our public schools has gone down. And it's 0:26:33.880 --> 0:26:37.840 important to reiterate that there have been to date no 0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:43.320