WEBVTT - The Business of Cannabis: Chatting about the highs and lows, with Jackson Tilley 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:06.160 I'm Bethany McLain. This is making a killing in this show. 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:08.920 I cut through the hype and handwringing to reframe the 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.240 stories you thought you understood and uncover the ones you 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:17.680 didn't know were important. Literally every day, a marijuana related 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:21.239 pitch pops into my inbox, whether it's to profile a 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:24.959 cannabis entrepreneur, to check out pot infused bath bombs and 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:27.560 facial creams, or to look at the launch of an 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:31.600 organic CBD infused sparkling water. That last one is a 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.400 direct quote, and it's not just me. A Shark Tank 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.520 episode featuring a doctor who had launched a CBD oil 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.920 was the most watched episode in Shark Tank history. The 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:45.479 craze is on investors, of course, love the eye popping 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:49.360 predictions for growth in the cannabis industry. Global spending on 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:52.480 legal cannabis is projected to grow two hundred and thirty 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:56.120 percent to thirty one point three billion in twenty twenty two. 0:00:56.400 --> 0:01:00.160 According to one market researcher, pot is now leak for 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.720 medical use in thirty three states, but it's still illegal 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:08.200 at the federal level. Strange, and hence author Jackson Tilly's 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.399 use of the delightful word legal ish. In his new 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:16.360 book subtitle Billion Dollar Dimebag, An Insider's account of America's 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:21.000 legal ish cannabis industry. A self professed true believer, Jackson 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:26.200 calls cannabis the next great American industry. Is he right? Well, 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:29.600 there are some serious issues. From a financial point of view. 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:34.119 The short history of cannabis stocks is well highs and lows. Sorry, 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:37.800 I couldn't resist the opportunities to make and lose fortunes. 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:41.280 Of course, sound like any new industry, but is pot 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:44.559 just like any other new industry. There's a fierce debate 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:48.120 about whether we'll regret the rush to legalization. There's still 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:50.960 a lot about cannabis that we just don't know, including 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:53.960 its harms and benefits. Proponents think we're going to learn 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:58.600 good things. Detractors argue that THHC, the active compound in cannabis, 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:02.800 is strongly linked to psych kosis, schizophrenia, and violence. So 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.400 today I get to chat with Jackson Tilly, who, as 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:08.560 I've mentioned, is a total believer. His first job out 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:11.600 of college was it a cannabis company now called Organic Brands, 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.639 and he never left. In addition to being an author, 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:18.560 he's now the vice president of strategic partnerships and communications. 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:21.960 As for me, I'm interested in learning why it is 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:26.320 that Jackson believes so strongly in this industry. So I 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:28.440 want to start in a slightly odd place. One of 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:30.960 the fascinating things I learned from your book is this 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:33.760 idea that to those of you in the industry, marijuana 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:37.040 is actually a pejorative word. Tell us the history of 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:39.280 how it came to be. You might want to call 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.440 it the War on drugs. One point now in the 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:46.160 very first generation of cannabis being treated like something horrible. 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:49.760 So you have Anslinger who was trying to stoke fears 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:53.000 about anti immigrant sentiments in the United States. And this 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:55.320 is back in the nineteen thirties, right when pott became 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.600 illegal exactly. This was probably a year and a half 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:00.880 after it was first getting to carry with it a 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:04.080 criminal punishment. So you have Anslinger who's decided that the 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:07.519 best way to do this is to attach cannabis use 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:12.040 to anti immigrant sentiments. And so marijuana, I guess at 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.480 the time people felt like had some connotation with Mexico, 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:17.920 and so it sort of just took off from there 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:19.760 and it was spelled with the H then instead of 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.680 the jay. That you see more commonly now, So it's 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:24.960 funny to look back at it. It's sort of like 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:28.360 transparent and kind of unbelievable that that was ever a 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:30.960 thought that somebody had, but it worked at the time, 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:34.600 and I mean not dissimilar to what we're going through now. 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:37.080 You know, we have a huge debate about immigration happening, 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:40.000 and I think some of the worst parts of politics 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:44.600 stoke those fears and people and try to leverage that anger. 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:47.920 It's interesting everything old is new again. I was thinking 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:50.240 that when I read it, But I thought this was 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:52.960 also stunning from your book, that a lot of us 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:56.120 don't remember that cannabis was once actually legal, and you 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:58.680 write that before nineteen thirty seven, you could walk into 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.960 a pharmacy and purchase of file was called marijuana tincture 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.440 from behind the counter, and that it was prescribed as 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.280 a remedy for a malady known as female hysteria. Yeah, 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:10.920 so you have to get women stone don't let us vote, right, right, 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:13.240 I mean, And I think like whether or not that 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:15.280 was actually the impetus for any of that, who knows. 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.800 But it's just wild to think about the sort of 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:23.320 dramatic change back and forth and again it's not dissimilar 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.920 to alcohol prohibition legal before, made illegal, and then made 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.320 legal once again. Do you have any sense if the 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:33.160 alcohol industry had something to do with marijuana becoming illegal 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:36.120 back in the nineteen thirties, You know, I haven't read 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.240 anything to that effect. I wouldn't be totally surprised, but 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:43.000 I think largely the big push for it was hemp production. 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.599 That people did not want to see hemp as a 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:48.520 commodity used in the production of paper pulp, and so 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:51.400 that was like a huge driver for this sort of 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:54.800 anti cannabis sentiment. Oh, that's interesting, since they wanted the 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:56.560 hemp to be used in paper, so they didn't want 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.680 it being used elsewhere exactly. Well, that's fascinating. Okay, So 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.160 again your book with these quotes from three presidents, which 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:03.479 I think is great, and I'm just going to read 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:05.320 them because I think it sets the stage to talk 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:09.000 about how much attitudes are changing. Now again, you've got 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:12.360 Bill Clinton saying I experimented with marijuana time or two 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:14.240 and I didn't like it, and I didn't inhale and 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.359 I never tried again. And then you've got Barack Obama saying, 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:19.919 when I was a kid, I inhaled frequently. That was 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:24.200 the point. So talk about the changing attitudes toward cannabis. 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.160 You know, I think it's a lot like any big 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:31.880 social movement where the big piece that's always missing is 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:34.440 just time. And I think you could like in it 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:36.400 a little bit to gay marriage, almost in the same 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:41.800 sense that it was something that was forever enormously taboo yep. 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.040 And it was not until things like social media and 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.640 easier access to information at a broad scale that you 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.839 saw the conversations start to tilt. So I think it's 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.200 very similar with cannabis that people are just exposed to 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:00.880 it to a greater extent now than they were previously. 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.080 And I think the big piece is that you see 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:08.200 more and more people who are both successful and consume cannabis. 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.320 And for a long time those things were mutually exclusive, right, 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:15.520 So you're breaking that historic association of the loser on 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.839 his mother's coach with the right. And for as volatile 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:23.280 as you mentioned the stock market surrounding cannabis is, it's 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.280 also the first time that it's being taken seriously as 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:27.960 a real business. I mean, for its faults, it really 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:30.039 is and I want to come back to that, but 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:31.720 one other thing you write in your book that I 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:34.200 knew but had forgotten is that John Bayner, and the 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.600 former House Speaker right is now serving on the board 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:39.320 of a cannabis company. He is. You know, you can 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.440 type in cannabis investments into Google and you'll be served 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:46.240 an ad for America's Bigcashcrop dot Com. What John Bayner 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:50.640 has to say. That's just amazing, and it's part of this. 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:55.000 You note that the number of Americans supporting legalization is growing, right, Yeah, absolutely, 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:57.719 I mean it's the same thing. I think it's twofold. Really, 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.400 people are frustrated with the prison industrial complex the United 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:04.760 States that huge numbers, particularly people of color, are either 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:09.240 charged or jailed for cannabis or petty drug charges. And 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:12.680 then I also think people are just interested in new 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:16.760 forms of income and new additives to the American economic system. 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.760 So hence the push toward legalization. So tell us about Colorado, 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:24.239 because Colorado is obviously the first date to legalize pot entirely, 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.200 not just for medical use, but for recreational use as well. 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:31.120 What's the picture there. I think it's largely positive, certainly 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.360 if you compare it to places where there's a black 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.000 market that's still thriving look anywhere in the South and 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:40.600 see exactly what's happening. In contrast to Colorado, where just 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:42.240 like a typical day, if I were to walk off 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:45.120 the plane in Colorado, I could head to a dispensary. 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:47.160 In Denver, if I'm over the age of twenty one, 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.240 I'll walk in, they'll scan my driver's license, and I 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:52.080 can buy something from behind the counter as if it 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.360 were a liquor store. And in turn, the state has 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.560 taken a huge portion of what you've just purchased as 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.160 tax revenue, and a great deal of it has been 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.520 earmarked toward public schools. So in Colorado, I hadn't lived 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:06.640 there in a long time, and then I recently moved back, 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:09.080 and it's sort of amazing to see this city is 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:13.960 Denver in particular, it's spotlessly clean, there's new buildings going 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.680 up everywhere, and it's consistently ranked as like one of 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:18.320 the best cities to live in the United States. And 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:20.160 I think a lot of that is probably due in 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.120 fact to this like move toward personal freedoms that people 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:26.280 want to be in Colorado and have access interesting correlation. 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:28.600 I'm going to go with correlation rather than causation. On 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:33.120 that point. But I'll give you a possible correlation, And 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.040 you haven't seen the explosion of violence in Colorado that 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:40.599 some of marijuana's detractors. And I'm sorry, I can't help it. 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:42.960 I'm going to keep using the word marijuana. I just fine, 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.760 bad word or not. I say it too. It's totally fine. Okay, 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:49.520 you haven't seen that explosion of violence that people expected, right, No, 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:52.360 absolutely not. And as a matter of fact, violence has 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.679 largely gone down in Colorado. There was like a brief 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.080 spike three years ago, but still far below the national 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:02.040 average and significan currently below what the projected national average 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.360 was when they did a study of future violence in 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:07.839 the United States as a whole. So I think that 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:11.320 that has largely been debunked. And I make this point 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.240 in the book that the sky just has not fallen 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.800 in Colorado. There are certainly issues, as there are with 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:21.000 any developing market, but these fears about children having easy 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.600 access to cannabis, the opposite has proven to be true. 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:28.079 And as far as crime, I think probably the biggest 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:32.360 crime that you see is robbery as it relates to 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.400 the transportation of cash in Colorado. Because there's no banking 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:39.280 system that will the banking system won't won't take cannabis money, 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:42.160 right exactly, So people are forced to use these private 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:46.000 armed car services and bank at credit unions instead of 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:48.600 just being able to conduct business like anybody. So it's 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:52.440 crime as a result of messed up regulations rather than Yeah, 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.600 I think the point you made is, while an obvious one, 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:57.680 it's one I often forget, which is that the black 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.600 market will exist. We're not talking about pot or right, 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.439 we're talking about legal pot or illegal pot. But it's 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.199 going to be one or the other, which I think 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.440 is an interesting point. So tell tell us about your 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:11.360 personal story, because you're an advocate for this industry and 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:14.000 yet you don't use it yourself. I don't, and I 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:15.800 did at one point in my life, but I got 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:18.800 sober in the midst of working in this industry actually, 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:23.000 and you know, my drug of choice was always prescription pills, 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.840 like I think many people in the United States, and 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:29.000 so for me it was sort of an awakening about 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:31.360 what's the root of this issue in the United States, 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.960 Like why are prescription drugs so prevalent and so easy 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:38.800 to get in cannabis, which carries far less of the 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.000 same dangers, Almost impossible in so much of the country, 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:44.360 And so that's like in one bucket, and then the 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:47.320 other piece is just And I've hit on this all 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:48.880 the time in the book, and I say it all 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:51.280 the time in real life too. But for me, it's 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:54.560 just a personal freedom's issue. It's like, I don't know 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:57.839 that it's harming anyone, and in fact probably has a 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:01.319 net positive effect. So the of the day, if you're 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:03.439 not hurting anybody, and we can make the rest of 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:05.800 the world safer by making it legal, why wouldn't you 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:07.880 advocate for that. We're going to come back to that, 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:09.720 but but I want to pause on your point about 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.280 prescription drugs because I thought that was a really interesting 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:17.040 point that opioids available legally prescription drugs kill people and 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:21.640 marijuana does not, and that there is some hypocrisy around 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.280 complaints about making pot legal when you compare it to 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:29.280 what is legally available and dispensed crazily in the pharmaceutical system. Right. Yeah, 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:30.840 I mean, and for me, I was an eighteen year 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:33.480 old fresh out of high school, dropped off at college, 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:37.720 and was getting a prescription for exorbitant amounts of xanax 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:41.000 from a doctor who just didn't think to question why 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:42.800 an eighteen year old needs to be taking six or 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.920 seven zanex a day. And wow, And that case isn't 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:49.960 unique to me. That's a widespread problem of over prescription 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.720 in this country. So when it comes to cannabis, I 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.600 just think it just doesn't carry the same risks. And 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.839 I hate to say that because I know they're detractors 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:01.440 who say that it's certainly does carry risks, and I'm 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.600 not saying it's risk free, but I think if you 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:06.600 look at the two and a vacuum, it's evident which 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:10.520 one carries a higher risk. I hadn't actually realized that 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.920 you couldn't kill yourself by overdosing on marijuana. I'm naive 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:17.040 about the industry and marijuana itself, I have to contest. 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:18.920 I think it's a study that they did said you'd 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:23.160 need to eat thirty six pounds of cannabis in order 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:25.520 to be able to overdose. And it wouldn't even be 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.120 from the THHC content. It would be from your stomach 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.720 expanding too rapidly from all of the plant materials. So 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:36.240 it's a high bar. Okay, that is a really disgusting image. Okay, 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:37.760 So let's start with some of the basics, just for 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.400 people who are listening who may know. What's the difference 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:43.920 between CBD and THHC. Sure, so it's most simple level. 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:48.160 THC is the psychoactive part of the cannabis plant, and 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:53.480 CBD is the non psychoactive. So CBD offers, according to some, 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.240 a lot of the same benefits as THHC, but without 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.440 feeling high essentially, And do you believe that these claims 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:04.080 about CBD are pretty astonishing? This Shark Tank episode with 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:06.680 this doctor that became this most watched episode in Shark 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.079 Tank history, is that it's been clinically proven to help 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.720 dozens of ailments including I just have to do the list, 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:14.840 chronic pain, arthrit a, stress, depression, anxiety, heart healthy diabetes, 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:18.280 improve cognition until hey, the onset of horrible conditions like dimension. Also, 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:20.839 I mean, seriously, you might be able to moonlight as 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.320 a narrator for prescription commercials on television. That was very quick. 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.400 You know, I don't know, and I think most people 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.760 don't know whether it's actually true or not. And a 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:34.360 huge piece of that is that there's no situation in 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:36.959 which you could do a controlled clinical study on the 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:40.640 effects of CBD because there's no regulatory body to oversee that. 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:46.280 So that's one issue, yep. And then beyond that, anecdotally, 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:50.240 most people believe in this thing called the entourage effect, 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:52.960 which is where you have to have multiple cannabinoids in 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:55.439 order for them to all vire at full power, if 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:57.840 you want to think of it that way. So CBD 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.320 works in its most effective way if it's paired with 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:04.480 some type of THHC or other cannabinoids that are present 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:07.280 in the plant, and there's hundreds of them. So taking 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:11.000 like a straight up CBD seltzer water for example, I 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.440 don't know that that necessarily does anything. However, there might 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:17.400 be a placebo effect and if that makes people feel great, 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.480 then more power to them. Why not, right? And it 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:23.280 sounds good. So we are really you mentioned that these 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.080 hundreds of strains in the cannabis plant, we're really at 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.000 the nascent stages of research about this, right, because the 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.280 research that was going on in the twenties and thirties 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.080 into the medical benefits of cannabis just went caput when 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.520 it became illegal exactly. And it's a huge issue. I mean, 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:40.120 I think there's a lot that the plant can do 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:44.720 more than we probably understand right now, and The only 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:46.560 way that we're ever going to figure it out is 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:50.160 if there's federal legalization, because until then, who can really 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.480 say no, one is equipped to be running those types 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:56.080 of studies. So where are we in understanding how useful 0:14:56.360 --> 0:15:00.360 marijuana can be in treating various diseases, not just DBD, 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:03.520 but but thhc are we you hear these reports of 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.880 miracles of people seizures being cured, of cancer patients being 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.760 able to eat and tolerate their medication. Is this the 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:11.880 first inning? Is at the ninth inning? Where are we 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:15.840 in our understanding level? This is probably the third inning. 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.640 Baseball is not my strong suit. It's like the first 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.520 twenty minutes of the Academy Awards. Okay, that's that's a 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:27.080 concept I'm familiar with. We're waiting to see large scale 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.080 studies that happen, and I think, again, I hit on 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:32.520 this all the time, but it's until there's better legalization. 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:36.560 It's tough. However, anecdotally you can see it firsthand. There 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:39.640 tons and tons of people who move to places like 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:43.680 Colorado and California who have chronic health issues that rely 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.640 on cannabis. And I think, at the end of the day, 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:52.000 whether it's for pain, or for seizures, or for nausea, whatever. 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:56.480 If people are finding relief through something that is largely 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.280 free of many of the downsides of prescription pain medication, 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:04.560 our prescription alternatives, I would advocate for that one hundred 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:07.400 times over. So in the interim, I think people should 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:12.920 just continue to try products in a responsible manner and 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.480 see what works for them. There's powerful anecdotal evidence, I 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:20.680 will give you that, if no systematic scientific study. What 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.400 are you seeing in terms of the money coming into 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.040 the industry. I saw statistic earlier this year. I think 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.440 that a company got one hundred and twenty five million 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.920 dollars of venture capital money. Are you seeing the amounts 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:35.120 of money begin to skyrocket on the whole? I think 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.360 it's begun to level out a little bit. But in 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.080 the last two years, yes, an exorbitant amount of money 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.000 has been pumped into the cannabis industry. Our own company 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:44.800 as well, want public at the beginning of the year. 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.600 And in Canada, right because in Canada pot is legal, 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.360 so therefore yeah, okay, actually our friendly neighbors to the north, 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:53.600 so it's the way of just avoiding the patchwork of 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.800 US laws. Yeah, exactly, And there are other ways to 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.720 do it in the United States, but it's more complex. 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.520 So you write in the book that despite the seeming 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:05.160 popularity of the cannabis industry in the United States, there's 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.720 never been a worse time to get started. And all 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.520 of the companies here is included, I think lose money. 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:12.800 Why is that? Why is it so hard to make money? 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:15.720 People ask all the time, they say, should we get 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:17.960 involved in cannabis? And the answer I always say is 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.119 five years ago was the best time. And we actually 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:23.479 just at our quarterlies a couple of days ago bottom 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:27.720 line profits for something that's very exciting. But yeah, I 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:32.960 mean it's an incredibly expensive industry. Number one, talent retention 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:35.560 is super difficult. Payroll as a high expense across the 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:39.280 cannabis industry. If we're talking about big CpG geared cannabis 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.359 companies like Hours and like Cannapy Grow, what do you 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:45.160 mean by CPGA geared that it's a consumer package essentially? Yeah, 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.840 so it's that. And then just raw materials are incredibly 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:52.359 expensive though they've been compressed significantly or over year. The 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.080 cost of the actual cannabis flower that's being turned into 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:58.000 other goods, it is it volatile it's not. It's actually 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:00.800 consistently gone down that because more and more people are 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:04.119 growing as they see it becoming more legal. Right, okay, 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:06.560 and what about part of the problem with making money 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:10.880 are these quite contrary regulations. You talk about one section 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:15.080 to ade explain what that is. To ad, e is 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:21.560 the bane of every cannabis entrepreneurs existence, strong language. Indeed, 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.560 it's the section of the US tax code that excludes 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:29.000 any businesses that function in an illegal fashion from claiming 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:32.920 any expenses on their tax reports, any normal business expenses. 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:35.600 So when we talk about the incredible cost of running 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:37.600 a cannabis business in the United States, none of its 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:41.479 tax deductible exactly. So it's a realized tax rate of 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:45.960 eighty percent for some people. So it's incredible. Wow. And 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:48.879 then on top of that, you've got this complexity of 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:52.920 state law, right, no overarching federal law, and the state 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:56.680 law is really complicated in patchwork, absolutely, and I think 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:00.159 that also contributes to the high costs of operating in 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.920 the industry. If you were to work at McDonald's, all 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:06.679 of your supplies, all of the goods that you use 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:08.480 in your restaurant are coming from one or two or 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:12.480 three central warehouses. So that's all been brought into one place. 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.359 And in the cannabis industry, it's not the It's not 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.240 the case if I run an operation in Colorado and 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:20.920 I also have one in California. I'm creating those products 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.680 in a vacuum, separate from one another. And you can't ship, say, 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.159 raw material grown in California and use it in your 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:28.800 product in Colorado, right, and nothing has to stay within 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:33.880 the state. Wow. Yeah, Wow, it's a big logistical nightmare 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:37.560 I can imagine. So what do you think the picture 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:40.960 looks like for federal legalization. You seem mixed on it. 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:45.520 I'd say, yeah, I think it's farther away than a 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:49.960 lot of people would like to believe. That said, our 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:55.480 current political climate is extremely unpredictable. Interesting may you live 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.119 in interesting times? Right? Isn't that the old Chinese proverb? 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.560 So I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.359 possibility that it happens in the next two years. But 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:06.679 it may. But you know, I think we're on the 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:09.920 right path, and I think eventually we hit this tipping 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:14.600 point where enough states have legalized that it's just a 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.520 no brainer to happen at the federal level, and I 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:20.439 think largely to infect us to the banking issues that 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:22.320 we spoke about. I think that's probably the thing that 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.439 will tip the scales in order to allow banks to 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.280 take money from cannabis entrepreneurs, right, so you don't have 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:31.840 this almost black market system of banking running in parallel 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:36.280 to the legal ish cannabis industry. Right is part of 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:40.680 the push for legalization. Will the move toward criminal justice 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:43.040 also help, do you think? I think so. I think 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:46.520 people are really frustrated by the amount of resources that 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.200 are spent on jailing people for petty drug offenses, especially 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.680 when we've seen there are better ways to rehabilitate people 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:55.800 than throwing them in jail. Like if people are being 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.240 arrested for drug charges because they have a drug problem, 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:00.119 going to jail is not the solution to that, not 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:03.480 going to do much. Right, So, how prior to legalization, 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:06.040 assuming it ever happens, how is a consumer do you 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:09.119 navigate all these different brands. I walked into a medman 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:13.240 when I was in Venice recently, and it's just it's 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:15.719 really hard to know what you're buying, what something is, 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.760 whether there's any consistency between products. Is that part of 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:21.080 the issue too, and how as a consumer do you 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:23.840 navigate that there's a couple pieces to it. Number one 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:26.600 companies like ours and we're certainly not the only one 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:29.239