1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Body dyes, but Joseph's gotten more. Close your eyes for 2 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: a second, and as you close your eyes, think about 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: being in a dark room with only your smart tom 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: You know what I'm talking about. I know we're all 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: guilty of it, even though they say we're not supposed 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: to do it. Laying there in bed in the darkness, 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: and that gloe it illuminates your face. As a matter 8 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: of fact, sometimes Kim will roll over and say, Honey, 9 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: puts the one down. Go sleep, But just for a moment, 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: imagine laying in a totally darkened bedroom and that glow 11 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: seeps out and illuminates only that small part of your face. 12 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: It illuminates it to the point where the killer that 13 00:00:54,320 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: has just walked into your room is able to make statement. 14 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: She looked up and made a gasping noise. Then I 15 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: shot her. That comes from the lips of Jake Wagner 16 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: as he shot Dana Roaden while she was in her 17 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: bed having worked an entire day as a nursing assistant, 18 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: and her newborn grand baby is right down the hall, 19 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: along with her daughter that has just been murdered, and 20 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: along with her sixteen year old son that has just 21 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: been murdered as well. Let that sink in, because today 22 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the quote unquote punishment that 23 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: the Wagner family has been given. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 24 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: and this is bas as old preachers like to say, Dave, 25 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: brothers and sisters, I come to you today with a 26 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: heavy heart. I got to tell you I couldn't believe 27 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: my ears. I really, I really couldn't when I found 28 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: out about the sentencing to tow of my friends uh 29 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: uh Gigi from pre Little Lives and Albis and and 30 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: uh my friend uh Anjeanette Levy from Long Crime Network 31 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: work covering the sentencing of the Wagoners in real time yesterday. 32 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: I've used this term before. Most Americans don't understand what 33 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: it means. But the British have a term that I love. 34 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: It's called gob smacked. Where I you know you you 35 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: have this expectation of this culmination of all of this 36 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: work that has gone into discovery, investigation, presentation of a case, 37 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 1: and Dave, it has druggne for years, for years, since 38 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. And this is what you wind up with. 39 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:28,239 Speaker 1: One year for every life that was taken that night, 40 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: one year for all eight of those individuals that were 41 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: systematically executed in their own homes in four locations in 42 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: one night, and this is what you give us. I'm 43 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: still dumbfounded by the structure of the sentencing that was 44 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: meeted out by the judge, Judge Hein, you know, up 45 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: there in Ohio, and I still don't fully understand, nor 46 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: do I appreciate the depth and breath. Maybe he sees 47 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: something and he knows something that I don't know. I 48 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: don't know. I know that yesterday when I called you, 49 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: because you and I have covered the piping mask for 50 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: so long, I could hear you almost draw a breath 51 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: on the other end of the line, and you were like, 52 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: you're joking, You're kidding me. This is what happened. 53 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 2: I have missed it when I was working on something else, 54 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 2: and I just I missed the sentencing because Billy Wagner 55 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,679 Speaker 2: still hasn't gone through the process yet, and I really 56 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 2: wondered why they wouldn't just wait until they've got all 57 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 2: the convictions or what have you, you know, go through the 58 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 2: adjudication and then do sentencing on those who rolled over. 59 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: But that didn't happen. Judge Hin, as you mentioned, decided 60 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: to go ahead and last some sentencing. When you told 61 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 2: me what it was, it was horrific. The Pike town 62 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 2: or piked in massacre. It's called the Pike County Murders, 63 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: piked in Massacre, and a few other things. There have 64 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: been dozens of podcasts, true crime podcasts. There have been 65 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 2: television shows, documentaries because, as you mentioned, Joe four Locations 66 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 2: one Night, and it is a story of two families, 67 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: the Wagner's and the Rodents, Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin. Now, 68 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 2: Jake Wagner is who we're actually really talking about today, 69 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: along with his mother, who was the huh, the clean 70 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: of planning. 71 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, she's Metallica's got a great song everybody 72 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: knows out there. You hear bands play it all over 73 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: the place called puppet Master, And yeah, that's that's the 74 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: that's the that's the thing here. You know. I think 75 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: I don't want to get too far off into religion. 76 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: I think people view Satan as a puppet master. I 77 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 1: submit to you that it's it's people that have this 78 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: kind of evil in their heart where they can find 79 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 1: it very easy to dismiss the pain and suffering of 80 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: others and still drive on with this plan, this ultimate plan, 81 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: and she's Angela Wagner is the person in fact that 82 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: was behind the planning. She drew, she drew the roadmap 83 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: for it. And here's another aside that I think that 84 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: that we're maybe forgetting here. She her mother was involved 85 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: in US as well, Rita NUKEM. And she was sentenced 86 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: yesterday as well. And guess what she was a sentence 87 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: to nothing misdemeanor obstruction. I think she has to pay 88 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: like a five hundred dollars fine. 89 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 2: And she's kind of actually fifty dollars year. 90 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sorry forgive me seven hundred and fifty dollars. 91 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: I don't know what kind of recompense exists therein however, 92 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: I am I'm still you know, that's emblematic. I think 93 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: of what went down yesterday, and you're right, Billy uh 94 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: still has yet well, first off to go to trial. 95 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: His trial is being moved. And look, I'm no fan 96 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: of Billy Wagner and the you know, the death penalty 97 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: for him is off the table. We just found out 98 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: and we haven't done an episode since then. I don't 99 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: think about about picking, but you know, he the death 100 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: penalty has come off the table for Billy. Now, I 101 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: don't think that they're going to make him the scapegoat 102 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: and all this. There's too much evidence that points back 103 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: to this kind of confederacy that was going on and Billy, 104 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, Billy is innocent until proven guilty, 105 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: but he's kind of adult, if you will. He's not 106 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: the sharpest tool in the shed and easily easily driven. 107 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: And he's driven. You ever been around somebody Dave that 108 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: you knew that. I'm not saying you would ever do this, 109 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: but I'm just saying you knew that if you could 110 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: make somebody angry enough, you knew which buttons to press, 111 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: they're easier to control because their anger becomes predictable many times, 112 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: and there's people that are highly skilled at doing that. 113 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: I think that that's probably what Angela did with Billy. 114 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: You know, her son, Jake is no fool. I mean 115 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: he you know, he's relatively articulate when he you know, 116 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 1: when he goes to speak. He's the one. He's kind 117 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: of the lynchpin in this whole case that you know, 118 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: held forth on the you know, actually one went down 119 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: that night. He talked about it in great detail and 120 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,079 Speaker 1: rendered a confession you know, and it was based upon Okay, 121 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: the death penalty's off the table for you guys, and 122 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: a lot people forget this, but you have to confess, 123 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: and if anybody refuses to roll over on this, then 124 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: we're going to reevaluate. The death penalty will be back. 125 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, Dave, I'm not a huge 126 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: fan of the death penalty. You and I've had this 127 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: discussion off air, But there are certain cases. There are 128 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: certain cases where, particularly when great planning goes into them, 129 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: that element of premeditation, and I know Nancy's kind of 130 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: fallback position as always well, pre meditation can be formed 131 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: in the twinkling eye. She loves to say that, and 132 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: I understand why she says it. But we're talking about 133 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: a premeditative event involving a multiple homicide that took a 134 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 1: very long time to be planned, Dave, and I beg 135 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: you please explain to me how this is. This does 136 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: not qualify for the death penalty. I just don't. I 137 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: don't understand it. It doesn't make sense to me. And look, 138 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: if you want to stuff them away and throw them 139 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: in a cell and forget that they ever existed, I 140 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: guess that's fine. But even that didn't happen in this case. 141 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 2: Dave, that's the shocking reality, Joe. For those of you 142 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 2: who are not that familiar, just to give you an overview, 143 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 2: this actually is a story of two families, the Wagners 144 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 2: and the Rodents. Jake Wagner and Hannah Roden began dating 145 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 2: when Hannah was thirteen and Jake was eighteen. Now, most 146 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 2: of us know that at thirteen year old is underage, 147 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: an eighteen year old is an adult. So when a 148 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 2: thirteen year old and an eighteen year old are dating, 149 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: even if the parents approve, there are still some illegal 150 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: activities taking place if the couple has sex. I'm just 151 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 2: throwing that out there to tell you. 152 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: Well, hang on, yeh, remember what you've always told me. 153 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: Thirteen year old is not capable of having sex. 154 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 2: Or they're raped. That's it. 155 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: You're right, go ahead, And that's some of the most 156 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: that's when you told me that statement. I don't know 157 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: how long ago, that was one of those epithantal moments 158 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: from me because I'd never viewed it that way, and 159 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: I know I probably deep down to my heart, but 160 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: you explained it in such an earnest way to me. 161 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: It really, you know, scales kind of fell off my 162 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: eyes at that point. 163 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: It's crazy, but the reality is, if you're not of age, 164 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 2: then if you're not capable in the eyes of the law, 165 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:33,479 Speaker 2: of making a consensual decision when it comes to sexual relations, 166 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: then you cannot have sex, you cannot make love, you 167 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: can only be raped. So and by the way, that 168 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: works for males and females when you're dealing with boys 169 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 2: being raped by teachers in school. Yep, So back to this. 170 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 2: Hannah's thirteen, Jake is eighteen. Hannah becomes pregnant with Jake's 171 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: baby when she's allegedly fifteen. Baby Sophia is born, and 172 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: both families loved her. Those who knew Jake Wagner and 173 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: Hannah Rodin said that Jake Wagner was very controlling and 174 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: had been verbally and physically abusive to Hannah. Hannah Roden 175 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 2: broke up with Jake Wagner and they both dated other people. 176 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 2: Hannah had a child with another man, and Jake Wagner 177 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 2: married another woman briefly. The Wagner family won a custody 178 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 2: of Sophia and accused Hannah Rodin of dating men that 179 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 2: might sexually assault Sophia. There was no proof that this 180 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 2: was the case, but it fueled the rage in the 181 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 2: Wagners towards Hannah Rodin. When the Wagners tried to force 182 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 2: Hannah Roden to sign papers to turn custody of Sophia 183 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 2: over to Jake Wagner, she refused and posted a message 184 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: on Facebook that she would quote never sign papers ever. 185 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 2: Unquote they'll oh no, maybe back up, that's not the 186 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 2: full quote quote never sign papers ever. They will have 187 00:12:54,160 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: to kill me first. Unquote never. She would never see 188 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 2: sign papers. They would have to kill me first. That 189 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: apparently is when the Wagner family decided to kill Hannah 190 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 2: Rodin as well as her relatives so that custody would 191 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 2: fall to them, Because you see, if Hannah Rodin is dead, well, 192 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: her mom, dad, any other relatives could lay claim to 193 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: being a custodial parent. But if the entire family is obliterated, 194 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 2: the only people you have lest left is the paternal 195 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 2: side of the family, and that would be Jake Wagner 196 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 2: and his family. Jake Wagner allegedly allegedly began that relationship 197 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 2: with Hannah at thirteen. Only I am putting it out 198 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 2: of there because I believe that is very important when 199 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 2: you look at everything that goes into this case, that 200 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: from its very basis that whenever I see a young 201 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 2: man consistently dating younger girls, yeah that are I'm not 202 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 2: talking about pedophilia here, I'm talking about younger girls who 203 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 2: are right. It's a control issue. 204 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: I think, I think it is. It's like the you know, 205 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: I think back to my high school years and believe 206 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: it or not, I don't know if you got to 207 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: do this, but in my high school, we actually had 208 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: to going to the front line of the lawn of 209 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: the school and at lunchtime and eat outside. Can you 210 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: imagine them doing that today? Dude? 211 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: When I was in high school, we got to leave. 212 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: Leave, yeah we yeah, there were those among us that could. 213 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: But this was one of the things that was always 214 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: so creepy to me. There would be guys that would 215 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: cruise around the campus that had graduated from high school 216 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: like five and six years earlier, that would be in 217 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: their cars circling the perimeter of the of the high 218 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: school and they would park like up in the senior 219 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: parking lot, and of course, you know, they've they've got 220 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: a little money now, they've got these nice cars, and 221 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: the girls would go and speak to them out there, 222 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: and you're thinking, why are you here? Why aren't you off, 223 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: you know, working on a trade or learning something. 224 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 2: Five year old man have in common with a sixteen 225 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: year old girl. 226 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, and even you know. And now you 227 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: look at this age disparity with Jake and Hannah, and 228 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: you think about a thirteen year old is so easily manipulated. 229 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: A thirteen year old is easily dave intimidated, and a 230 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: lot of us hold the driver behind all this is intimidation. 231 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: How does I've thought about this before? And I wanted 232 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: to throw this out to you. How does this child 233 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: who has now and she's gotten a little bit older, 234 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: you know, with the birth of the baby, She's still 235 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: a child in my eyes, how does she muster up 236 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: the intestinal fortitude to say no, to say no? I know, 237 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, she'll go one better. She says, 238 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: what was it you said? What was your the quote, 239 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: you'll have to kill me. I don't know that that 240 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: I ever recall hearing hearing those words stated by somebody 241 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: so young. I know that when I was that age, 242 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: I don't know that I would have ever have said that. 243 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: I probably would have knuckled under. However, I can tell 244 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: you this. Hannah died that night as her baby still 245 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: suckled at her breast because Jake, after he killed her, 246 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,479 Speaker 1: said he didn't want the baby to starve, so adjacent 247 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: to her lifeless body, he placed that newborn child so 248 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: that that child could suckle during the night. I can't 249 00:16:43,640 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: measure the depths of it, David. When our kids were little, 250 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: we my wife and I Kim, we tried to get 251 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: them to stop saying the word sorry. I'm sorry. It 252 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: has several different connotations to it, but it seemed many 253 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: times inappropriate, or it lacked some measure of remorse, if 254 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: you will, because you can say I'm sorry and it 255 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: just kind of water off a duck's back. You know, 256 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: if they've done something horrible, I want them to be 257 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: able to explain to me because it's about learning. You 258 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: know what, what have you learned from this decision that 259 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: you made. I don't like saying you know it was 260 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: a mistake. You know, a mistake is like I left 261 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: my keys in the car, or I locked my keys 262 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: in the car. It's not a mistake. There's a word though, 263 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: that I love, Dave, and that word the root the 264 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: word of the root of the word is actually contrite. 265 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,959 Speaker 1: But I love the term contrition because when you you 266 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: say that you know you are contrite, that you will 267 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: you will go and you will make a statement where 268 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: you actually throw yourself down and say I'm so sorry 269 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: for what I've done. You throw your feet, yourself at 270 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: the feet of the court, you throw yourself at the 271 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: feet of the family members. You express some kind of 272 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: remorse for what you've done. That's that's true recognition. I 273 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: think at least you might disagree. I don't know, But 274 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: for me, there's something about contrition being being willing to 275 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: do that. You know, the old idea, the the rending 276 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 1: of clothing and you know, wearing sackcloth and ashes, and 277 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: you know, really submitting yourself to the idea that that 278 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: you know that you've done great harm, Dave. That does 279 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: not exist in this brother. 280 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,719 Speaker 2: Not even a little bit, Joe. This was a total 281 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 2: plan from the beginning to massacre and wipe out another 282 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: family with the express purpose of getting a grandchild, getting 283 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 2: a child, you know, away from another family. This is 284 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 2: at its base out now murder to attain something that 285 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 2: you wouldn't share because they didn't like what was going on. Look, 286 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 2: if you've ever had a child dating another person, you know, 287 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 2: when they're of age and they're dating and you don't 288 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 2: like the person they're dating, or you don't like what 289 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 2: happens afterwards. Or if you've ever had a child that 290 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 2: was going through a divorce and your children involved, your 291 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 2: heart breaks for everybody, and oftentimes the couple in the 292 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 2: moment they're going through the breakup, they fight over everything 293 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 2: from shoelaces to children. It's just the way things are, 294 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: and I get that this is a lot different. Going 295 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 2: back to her statement, Hannah Talma Hannah for a moment 296 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 2: when she said I'm never signing any papers. She didn't 297 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 2: say Jake will have to kill me. She said, day 298 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 2: they will have to kill me. This was an entire 299 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 2: family that she knew she was up against, and she 300 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 2: also was stating it for herself, but laying it out 301 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: there that her family. Because these families knew one another, 302 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 2: they were close. There was not we're not we're talking Hatfield's, McCoy's, 303 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 2: Romeo and Juliet. The families knew each other. 304 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, but there's not like the the population 305 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: sample is not. You don't have a lot to sample 306 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 1: from because it's so and I think over the years 307 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: the population has contracted in that area greatly. You know, 308 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: people have gone on to try to find other jobs. 309 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: I've been up there several times, and I got to 310 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: tell you, I'm glad I went up there because I'd 311 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: never I've been to Appalachia before, I've lived in Appalachia, 312 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: I've never been to that part of our country, and 313 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,719 Speaker 1: I came away just thinking, oh my gosh, it's beautiful. 314 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: It's like a combination of let me see, it's kind 315 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: of like a combination so that I can describe it 316 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: to you if if anyone has ever seen The First 317 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: the first iteration of the Lord of the Rings, that 318 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: movie where they portray where the Hobbits live, the shire 319 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: rolling Bucolic hills. There's agriculture that's going on, but it's 320 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: just those rolling hills. It's like a combination of bluegrass 321 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: country in Kentucky where the horses all are, and then 322 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: you know you're right in the foothills of the Appalation Mountains. 323 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: It is absolutely exquisite. You know, it's like, Okay, I 324 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: could have a home here, but if you have a 325 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: home there, what the heck are you gonna do? For 326 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: a job because there's not there's not. And actually when 327 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: I was up there, Dave and you know, as you 328 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: well know, I've been on the podcast, the Piked and 329 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 1: Masker podcast and as well as the Oxygen the Oxygen 330 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: television series about about these events. One of the things 331 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: that really struck me was a comment that one of 332 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: the locals made to us. They said that now in 333 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: this area, the more it's made up more of people 334 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: that are at retirement age, that it's like a retirement 335 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,479 Speaker 1: area to you know, that people will seek out. And 336 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: we saw evidence of that some of the developments that 337 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: have been built. But you know, for the people that 338 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: are there, the salt of the earth, you know, as 339 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: they say, the common clay that occupy that space and 340 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: have occupied it for generations. It was a hand and 341 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: mouthed existence in that environment. And so these two families 342 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 1: knew each other, they went to church together, they did 343 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: you know, farmers markets, you know, where they would see 344 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: one another. There's even some indication that, you know that 345 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: both families were aware the legal weed operations grow operations 346 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: said both were engaged in. 347 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 2: That's a that's a big issue both. Yeah, it was 348 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 2: unless you could if you're going to rat on somebody. 349 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 2: You're talking about mutual destruction, and that's why, you know, 350 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 2: we know what you're doing. You know what we're doing. 351 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 2: Everybody shut up. Okay, Yeah, but you know you mentioned 352 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 2: they did know one another. These families were connected by geography, 353 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 2: by relationships. I want to point out that, according to 354 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 2: what we found out in court documents later on, the 355 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 2: Rodent family, uh said the Wagoners were trying to force 356 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: Hannah into signing over the parental rights of her of Sophia, 357 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 2: who was not a baby then she was at three 358 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 2: at the time and then toddler, because Hannah had moved 359 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 2: on Jake. You know, we mentioned earlier that while Jake 360 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 2: and Hannah broke up, Hannah was the one that broke 361 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 2: up with Jake, and it was Hannah who had the 362 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: child with Jake. But she realized he's a controlling, immature 363 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 2: jerk with no future, so I'm kicking him to the 364 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 2: curb and she ends up having a child with another person. 365 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 2: Jake meanwhile, starts a relationship with another woman who also 366 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 2: kicks him to the curb because he's a controlling, jealous, 367 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 2: horrible person with no future. So it's like once Hannah 368 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 2: put Jake on the road. Jake, regardless of what relationship 369 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 2: status he had with anybody else, began threatening Hannah about 370 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 2: their child together, about Sophia, and once Hannah had the 371 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,959 Speaker 2: other baby, it was like, well you've got that one, 372 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 2: let me have Sophia. And his family apparently felt the 373 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 2: same way. The Wagoners were like, right, she's got a 374 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 2: baby with somebody else, now let us have Let us 375 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 2: have Jake's baby. You know you don't need it. And 376 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 2: when she wouldn't do it and said, hey, you want it, 377 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: they will have to kill me. Well, they are the Wagoners, 378 00:24:54,920 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 2: and that's exactly what they did. Four locations in one night. Joe, 379 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 2: who was the person behind putting all this together, This 380 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 2: is a big undertaking four different locations in the middle 381 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 2: of the night. You know, you can't see what's going on. 382 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 2: You have to plan something like this. And somebody actually 383 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 2: thought to say, hey, we're gonna do this, we need 384 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 2: to make sure that we don't leave any any. 385 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: Trace anything behind. 386 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of those is footprints. Don't leave any 387 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,719 Speaker 2: footprints that can be tracked back to you. So what 388 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 2: did she do, Joe. 389 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: Well, we're talking about obviously, we're talking about Angela. And 390 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: I'll say this just very briefly. Jake is vacuous. He's 391 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 1: an empty He's an empty suit. If you will, you know, 392 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: any any manifestation of anger and all those sorts of things. 393 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: I know you're supposed to take personal responsibility, but I'm 394 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: telling you that that's projected from Angela through him, just 395 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: like the just like the husband. I think. Now, wow, 396 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: the other Yeah, that's what I think. I think that 397 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: it all stems from her. She is that root, if 398 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: you will, She's that concentric point in this and kind 399 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: of radiations. Now, I will tell you she's a puppet master. Yeah, 400 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: she is a puppet master. Now, I think that Jake 401 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: over probably being rather contemplative now, you know, having been 402 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: seated in this jail cell for some time, he began 403 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: having some original thoughts of his own, and he realized 404 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: he'd been hung out to dry, I think, and that's 405 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: why he agreed, along with his mother to roll over 406 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 1: on all this to provide testimony against his brother who 407 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: has now since been convicted and is serving tom And 408 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: of course they have agreed to testify against Billy the dad. 409 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: Now just imagine this dynamic. But going back to Angela, 410 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 1: and just with the shoes alone. This is how much 411 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: she had thought this out. And this goes to remember 412 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: what I'd meant just a moment ago about forming forming premeditation. 413 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: She saw she had the ability to think at least 414 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: outside of the box and begin to think about, well, 415 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: I wonder what are some of the forensic considerations here. Well, 416 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: I know that what might happen that night is that 417 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: if they go in there, they're going to walk through 418 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: the dirt outside the trailer, which I have stepped foot 419 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: on the same surfaces, and it is dirty. You could 420 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: leave impressions in the soil. We know that killing is 421 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: going to take place, so if they track in blood 422 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 1: or track blood out, then it's going to be on 423 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 1: soles of their feet. So I know what I'll do. 424 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,239 Speaker 1: I'm going to run over a Walmart and I'm going 425 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: to pick up several pairs of shoes, brand new shoes, 426 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: so that they're not worn in any particular away you can't. 427 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: That's going to throw them off scent. Relative to the 428 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 1: principle that we talked about in forensics called individualization, You 429 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: know how we walk, pronate, superinnate, all those sorts of things, 430 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: Because there won't be any established wear pattern that gives 431 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: you an insight, I think into the workings of her mind. 432 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 1: And of course she's got you know, she's surrounded by 433 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: her guys and the family, and lord only knows what else. 434 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: You know, her mother was involved in relative to all 435 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: of this, this Rita and maybe some other peripheral actors 436 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 1: as well that I don't feel real comfortable going into 437 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,719 Speaker 1: at this point. But we'll just say that Angela is 438 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: that she's that lynch pin. She's that point right there 439 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: that everything hinges on because she's the one that wanted Sophia. 440 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that Jake didn't, but she wanted Sophia 441 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: because she could mold and craft Sophia in her own 442 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: image and direct her and all these sorts of things. 443 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: And as it turns out, she'd been doing this with 444 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: the whole family for years and years. Wow. And I 445 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: will tell you this, and I've made the statement over 446 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: and over again on the record. And the one thing 447 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: that was a big tell to me, Dave that I 448 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: came up with, that I came away from with the 449 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: Wagner case was the comment that had been made about 450 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: Angela and her interaction with her husband, Billy Billy again, 451 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: fierce anger. He never knew when he was going to 452 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: go off, big hulking man. And when I say big 453 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: and hulking guys, I'm telling you, my friends out there, 454 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: please go take a look at this guy. He's massive. 455 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: He's like six ' eight. He looks like the stuff 456 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: of nightmares when you see. He would blow up at 457 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: any given time. But he knew in his kind of 458 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:59,239 Speaker 1: in his mind that his wife loved baskets, and he 459 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: would go and he would purchase a basket. Every time 460 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: she would get they would get into a fight, a 461 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: tete a tete, if you will. And it is said 462 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: that when you walked into their family home there on 463 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: that beautiful piece of land that they had, it looked 464 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: like an old Victorian style farm home. You go into 465 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: her kitchen, the walls are covered with baskets that she 466 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: had hung, almost as if to memorial loss every little 467 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: conquest that she had made in battling with her husband. 468 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: I suspect that there are people out there that believe 469 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: that sentencing in any kind of case, but sentencing is 470 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: almost like when you're negotiating these things. It's almost like 471 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: negotiating to purchase a rain of car. What do I 472 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: have to do to put you in this car today? 473 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: It doesn't work like that. You have guidelines that you 474 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: have to adhere to, and Dave, when it comes to 475 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: the sentencing of Rita's kind of Grita Newcomb is kind 476 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: of secondary, but she's emblematic of something. I think you 477 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: know in this case that it's you know that she's 478 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: part and parcel perhaps of a bigger conspiracy. But yet 479 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: she's given the seven hundred and fifty dollars spot fine. 480 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: But what Angela and Jake got is a real slap 481 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: in the face, I think to the remnant of the 482 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: Rodent family, and not just that remnant, but the children 483 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: that are left behind. You know, it's possible, Dave, It's 484 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: certainly possible in Angela's case, because if I'm not mistaken, 485 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: she was originally told that she was going to serve 486 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: thirty years. She gets to court and it winds up 487 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: being twenty six, and the judge said, well, we'll give 488 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: you credit for Tom served, and what you know, six 489 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: years Tom served. So she's got to do twenty years 490 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: and she's out. So she's still going to be out 491 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: and about. In Sophia's life, just let that sink in 492 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: just for a second. Now, when Sophia gets old enough, 493 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: it's going to be up to her as to whether 494 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: or not she wants to have contact with, you know, 495 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: her paternal grandparent or not. But she, Sophia is going 496 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: to bear this burden. And I haven't even mentioned the 497 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: other children. You know, Hannah's newborn, Uh, that was covered 498 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: in bed. 499 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 2: I forgot about that. Yeah, she was covered in blood. 500 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 2: And that's the one, that little baby that she had 501 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 2: just given birth to. That was the you mentioned in 502 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 2: the beginning, Jake Wagner actually placing the baby at her 503 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 2: breast so the baby could feed. She's dead, but he 504 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 2: didn't want the baby to starve, so he put the 505 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 2: baby right there. 506 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: So she could suckle. And you've got two other kids 507 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: as well. Uh, you know, you've got these two, these 508 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: two children who one infamously came to the door on 509 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: the morning of killing when the Frankie Frankie Rodin's trailer, 510 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: the finder, who who's actually the sister in law, former 511 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: sister in law of mister Rodin, knocked on the door 512 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: and the three three four year old was sleeping on 513 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: the sofa and came to the door. And said mommy 514 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: and already played in zombie. And again you had another 515 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: small child that was laying, an infant that was laying 516 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: in between the two bodies, and again that child was 517 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: covered in blood as well. What about those kids? What 518 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: about those kids? And then if you expand this out, 519 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: and look, I could go on forever, it's almost geometric. 520 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: I think the way it kind of expands out. You 521 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: have all of the other family members, the cousins and 522 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: the aunts and the uncles and all those people that 523 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: occupy that beautiful area of the country up there, and 524 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: then you have the community at large. This is something 525 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: that has scarred this place. I mean, there are not 526 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: too many places that can say, yeah, we had a 527 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: quadra an octuple forgive me an octuple homicide on one 528 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: night and four locations that we had an entire family 529 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 1: that was wiped out. We're talking about a significant portion 530 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: of that familial line, that genetic line. Just think about that, 531 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 1: and you know, I could wax philosophical here and talk 532 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: about all the you know, the people that had been 533 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: wiped out as a result of this killing. But it 534 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,879 Speaker 1: has impacted and yet this is the best you can 535 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: do when it comes to sentence. This is how they're 536 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: going to have to spend their time paying for what 537 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: they did. I don't know, it's it feels to me 538 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: as if they've come up short. 539 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 2: Dave, you, I think that is beyond shocking that such 540 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 2: a massacre could be thought up and carried out when 541 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 2: all I could think of was the Charlie Manson case. 542 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 2: You know, Manson's argument was I wasn't there, right, you know, 543 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 2: I didn't do it. These people did it on their own. 544 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 2: And Manson was in our lifetime, convicted of murder even 545 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 2: though he didn't do the murder himself. In this particular case, 546 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 2: Angela Wagner was the mastermind. She had everything. I keep 547 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 2: going back to the shoes. The shoes just really strikes 548 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 2: me because that is really thinking out all of the 549 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 2: possibilities that could happen to tie you back to this. 550 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 2: I don't know anybody else that would that's not in 551 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 2: police investigations and things, that would even think about shoes. 552 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 2: I certainly didn't until this case even consider it. 553 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: Joe. Yeah, And there's so many Yeah, and there's so 554 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: many little bizarre things that come up in this case. Forensically, 555 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 1: I think, and you just think about the weapons. Who 556 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: there was a kind of a half hearted attempt. I 557 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,760 Speaker 1: guess you could say to chop these weapons up, bury 558 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 1: them in concrete, and use them as anchors for a 559 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: goosebox out in the middle of a little pond. H 560 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: You're not getting much separation between yourself and the evidence 561 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: at that point, Tom, because access and ability. You know, 562 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: if you're going to search some someplace, Oh where the 563 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 1: goosebox came from? Oh, yeah, we created for our grandmother. 564 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: Yeah it's new. Well, you know, all it took was 565 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: Jake to roll over were on it and said, yeah, 566 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: that's where they are. Now. I'm not saying they ever 567 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 1: would have found those, but that goes to prep. You've 568 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: got a suppressor that was used in this case. It 569 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: would seem as though every every I guess, every possibility 570 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: was considered. It happened in twenty sixteen, they don't get 571 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: arrested for months and months later. So and you had 572 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: the police chasing their tails, not really chasing their tails. 573 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: That's that's I shouldn't say that they were. They were 574 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: trying to exhaust every potential, every potentiality, because you know, 575 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 1: the big thing in you and I have talked about 576 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,719 Speaker 1: this on a previous episode day the you know, the 577 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 1: you know they thought the drug cartel was involved in 578 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: those right at first? Yeah, at first they did, you know, 579 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: And maybe it was. 580 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 2: Because of the day. It was because of the murders, 581 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 2: because of how they were carried out in one night, 582 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 2: in four different locations, and how thorough the massacre was, 583 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 2: and there was we being grown and there were rumorge 584 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 2: and things like that. Makes sense that they would have 585 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 2: to go through that. 586 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,879 Speaker 1: But the one key I think Dave to all this 587 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: is it has been alleged and I have no experience 588 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: with this sort of thing, but it has been alleged 589 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: that if this, in fact had been a cartel hit, 590 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: perhaps those babies would not have survived. 591 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 2: Right, They would have killed They would killed. 592 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: Every every living creature in there. And that so that 593 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: tells you something about the individuals that were involved in this. 594 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: So you're talking about that there's somebody that's capable of 595 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 1: mercy in this. What why did they spare the children? 596 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: I think is the one thing. And you think about 597 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: the geographic kind of distribution of these of these of 598 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: these killings, you know, three of the scenes were immediately 599 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,360 Speaker 1: adjacent to one another. I think the greatest distance was 600 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 1: between Dana's house and and mister Rhaden Senior's house. And 601 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: I don't know, it felt to though when I was 602 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:02,760 Speaker 1: out there that I could have set up a tideless 603 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: one and take my driver out then drive drive a 604 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: ball to her house from his front yard. Might fall short, 605 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: But it's you know, that's how close these were. Now, 606 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: Kenneth the other brother, you know, he's he's found in 607 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: his own trailer house. It's almost seven miles away. 608 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 2: It was like a camper trailer, it was. 609 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 1: But you know, he had built a little porch. He 610 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 1: was a single dad. He didn't require much. He worked, 611 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 1: he was a day laborer, and he had his own 612 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,359 Speaker 1: personal stash of weed that he was growing for his 613 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: own personal consumption. It's like a couple of plants, you know. 614 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: But yet they went out to kill him as well. 615 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: And I don't you know, it's hard to take the 616 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: measure of it. And I know that I always say that, 617 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: but hard to take the measure of these horrific things 618 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: that we try to describe on body backs. But I 619 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 1: think about this, and I think, you know, just understanding 620 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: the links that the wagoners went to in this case, 621 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: and this is the best you're going to do. 622 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 2: And after all the years they spent, they moved to 623 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 2: they being the Wagner's. You know, they actually went to Alaska, 624 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:11,840 Speaker 2: uh and set up shop there for a little while. 625 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 2: And while they were there, another woman involved with Jake 626 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 2: Wagner had to get away from him, you know, didn't 627 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 2: she escape from his car on the middle of the road. 628 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: Well, she winds up in a parking lot up there, 629 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 1: and she but she told the tale that she she 630 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: was expected to give over all of her passwords for email, 631 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: all her social media and that all guess where it 632 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 1: had go to go to Angela. Unbelievable that she could 633 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 1: keep track of it. So we're developing a thread here 634 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 1: that we can see along the way. 635 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 2: I missed that, Joe, I missed that, Yeah, telling me 636 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 2: that it didn't hit me till right now that that 637 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,360 Speaker 2: went that it went to Angela and not Jake. 638 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, and and I think that you know, 639 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: the message was passed along visa v Jake, you need 640 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 1: to do what we say to do. Are you going 641 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 1: to die? And that was like, again one of those 642 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: horrific episantal moments, if you will, that that young lady 643 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,919 Speaker 1: had and she's like, I gotta, I gotta get out 644 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: of this. What have I you know, have I taken 645 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 1: leave of my senses? What am I involved in? That? 646 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 2: Can never hit me till right now, Joe. 647 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, you you can't just appreciate. If you 648 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: go to a museum, you know, and you're looking at 649 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 1: a beautiful mural that's hanging on the wall, you can't 650 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 1: just look at the center of it. You have to 651 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 1: look at everything and to contextualize everything, to take it 652 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,279 Speaker 1: in and understand, you know, what the artist is trying 653 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: to get across. In this case, Angela was Certainly she 654 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 1: was a master of manipulation, I'd have to say that, 655 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: and planning. 656 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 2: And apparently a master negotiator too. Yeah, here what we 657 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 2: get for sentencing, Joe. You've got the woman who planned 658 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 2: everything and then pushed and prodded her entire male family 659 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 2: members to go out and do this heinous massacre. The 660 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 2: guy who's star had it all Jake also, by the way, 661 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 2: rolling over on your family, Jake was the leader of 662 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,439 Speaker 2: the pack there along with Angela. They both negotiated very 663 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 2: complicated deals, and I'm guessing that Angela probably was the 664 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,439 Speaker 2: one negotiating because these are very complex deals that were 665 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 2: done to take the leader of the pack and the 666 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 2: guy who originates everything, and they get they get a 667 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 2: deal that is beyond comprehension. Joe, how much? What were 668 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 2: they sentenced to? What are we looking at for Jake 669 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 2: and Angela? 670 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, well we you know, I mentioned Angela earlier. She'll 671 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,760 Speaker 1: be she's she her sentence will be done in twenty years. 672 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:46,800 Speaker 1: But with Jake, he's got the possibility of parole in thirty. 673 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: He's a young man, so he's he's still got he's 674 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 1: still got life to live, you know, at this point, 675 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 1: and there was an interesting reaction on his part. You 676 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: could there was like obvious surprise. There's a still shot 677 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: of him that I saw in local news and he's 678 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:14,720 Speaker 1: you can see, it's like he didn't expect that coming. 679 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 1: So how how do you know? How do we make 680 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,560 Speaker 1: sense out of what the judge's decision is the One 681 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 1: thing that I've heard about judge Hint is that he 682 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: does not like to sentence anybody to any punishment that 683 00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 1: involves no possibility of parole. And so if that's going 684 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 1: to be your blanket statement as a jurist, I would 685 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: think that I don't know. I would question. I would 686 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: question that because what you're saying is is that one 687 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,840 Speaker 1: of the cures, Because you look at sentencing, Dave, Sentencing 688 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: is not just for the punishment of the individuals that 689 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 1: have committed a crime. It's you're setting an example. It 690 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: is a remedy for crimes. So you know who else 691 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,359 Speaker 1: is going to be motivated to perhaps do something that 692 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 1: is equally as dastardly as as what the wagoners participated 693 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: in that night. Uh. And now you've you've set a 694 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: precedent here. You know, it's okay day to go out 695 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 1: and commit what has been stated the worst mass homicide 696 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: in the history. It just grab hold of this in 697 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:43,480 Speaker 1: the history of the state of Ohio. And there's a 698 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: chance you're going to be breathing free air at some 699 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,840 Speaker 1: point in time, with the sun shining down on your. 700 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,880 Speaker 2: Face, holding hands, walking down the beach with your daughter. 701 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And it's it's a terrifying prospect to me. 702 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,880 Speaker 1: You know, there's there's gonna be sun that will be shining. 703 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: It'll be shining on all of the graves of the 704 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,359 Speaker 1: road and family and little flowers will pop up and 705 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,800 Speaker 1: maybe people will go out to take care of those graves. 706 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,279 Speaker 1: Maybe people will look back and they will grieve, you know, 707 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,720 Speaker 1: the empty chair at Thanksgiving and Christmas. But you can't 708 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,919 Speaker 1: bring them back. They're not going to get a second 709 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: chance at life. But for Angela and Jake, they will. 710 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,840 Speaker 1: It might not be much of a life inside of 711 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:40,200 Speaker 1: those cold stone walls, but they're not dead in a 712 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:49,800 Speaker 1: graveyard somewhere. They're still living and they've still got hope. 713 00:45:50,880 --> 00:46:00,120 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs O.