Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both.
Speaker 1: You know, I've given a lot of advice over the years,
Speaker 1: and I've also sought and received a lot of advice,
Speaker 1: some of it better than others. But when it came
Speaker 1: to launching my career running for the Senate in New York,
Speaker 1: one person whose advice everyone told me to seek out
Speaker 1: was that of Luise Miranda. A venerated political consultant. Louise
Speaker 1: has given invaluable guidance to many New York candidates and
Speaker 1: politicians over the years, including me as well here later
Speaker 1: in this episode. He's also advised his son, the award
Speaker 1: winning composer, lyricist, actor, producer, and director Lynn Manuel Miranda.
Speaker 1: But when it comes to seeking advice on a more
Speaker 1: personal level, I know I'm not alone and thinking, there's
Speaker 1: no one quite like Cheryl Strade, And that's where we
Speaker 1: start today's episode. Cheryl Strade is an acclaimed author, best
Speaker 1: known for her stunning and brutally honest memoir Wild From
Speaker 1: Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail, later made
Speaker 1: into a hit film starring Reese Witherspoon in Cheryl began
Speaker 1: anonymously writing the Dear Sugar advice column under the pseudonym Sugar.
Speaker 1: Since then, the column developed a loyal following and has
Speaker 1: had several lives, including as a podcast. It went on
Speaker 1: hiatus for a while, but now she's brought it back
Speaker 1: as a newsletter, which is good news to fans of
Speaker 1: Cheryl's like I am. I've had the pleasure of getting
Speaker 1: to know her, spending time first together during my campaign
Speaker 1: for president, and then she's interviewed me about my books,
Speaker 1: and I've been a guest on her podcast. I always
Speaker 1: love talking with Cheryl, and I was so delighted to
Speaker 1: have the chance to now interview her for this podcast.
Speaker 1: I began by asking Cheryl how things have been for
Speaker 1: her and her family at home in Portland, Oregon over
Speaker 1: the many, many months of this pandemic. To be honest,
Speaker 1: I'm not alone in saying that these last couple of
Speaker 1: years have been difficult ones in in my life and
Speaker 1: my family's life. We're doing okay, but I have a
Speaker 1: son and a daughter who are a junior and a
Speaker 1: sophomore in high school, and it's been hard. I think
Speaker 1: this pandemic has been especially difficult for teenagers people in
Speaker 1: the early twenties. Of course, people who are older as well,
Speaker 1: you know the terrible health risks that they've faced in
Speaker 1: this pandemic. But teenagers socially mental health has been a struggle.
Speaker 1: And I think, as we all know, adolescence is always
Speaker 1: a difficul whole time, but it is a time when
Speaker 1: you want to be with your peers and socializing and
Speaker 1: having fun, and the pandemic has put a little crimp
Speaker 1: in that, right. I have to say, I, for one,
Speaker 1: was really pleased when you brought back the Dear Sugar
Speaker 1: column last year after a couple of years hiatus as
Speaker 1: a newsletter. What went into that decision about bringing back
Speaker 1: the opportunity for you to hear from people and and
Speaker 1: try to give some advice, right, So you know the
Speaker 1: reason I brought it back, Really it goes back to
Speaker 1: this essential belief that I have, and that is that
Speaker 1: stories save us, the literature specifically, but are in general,
Speaker 1: is the thing that allows us to see ourselves most clearly.
Speaker 1: It tells us that we can go on. It tells
Speaker 1: us that that we can endure suffering. It tell us
Speaker 1: us that we can triumph, we can lose, we can
Speaker 1: love that these experiences that we have, these struggles have,
Speaker 1: they are universal and timeless, and so as a writer,
Speaker 1: I have always felt that my mission my work in
Speaker 1: an interesting way, not so unlike yours. You've spent your
Speaker 1: lifetime as a public servant trying to make the world
Speaker 1: a better place, make people's lives better. I've done that too,
Speaker 1: in a very different way through writing. And what I
Speaker 1: try to do is to remind us all of our
Speaker 1: humanity that the universal threads that connect us. And of course,
Speaker 1: in the Deer Sugar Advice column, I do that very
Speaker 1: specifically because there is one person saying help, I'm struggling.
Speaker 1: I can't go on. And what I try to do
Speaker 1: is not just give advice. Anyone who reads the Deer
Speaker 1: Sugar column knows that I don't just say Okay, do this,
Speaker 1: this and this. What I say is, let us think
Speaker 1: deeply about the question you're asking me. And so I
Speaker 1: really just engage with people's struggles rather than telling them
Speaker 1: what to do. And and I hope that that offers
Speaker 1: some illuminations, consolation, something for them to hold onto so
Speaker 1: they can't take that next step forward. Well, I think
Speaker 1: that's the best kind of advice that anybody can give
Speaker 1: to try to really understand in a radically empathetic way
Speaker 1: what is going on, and the way that you do
Speaker 1: it through storytelling really locates the advice in a broader
Speaker 1: context so that it's not just the person writing into
Speaker 1: you saying I'm a nurse and I have a teenager
Speaker 1: and I've never been so tired or despairing, or in
Speaker 1: a recent column where somebody said, you know, I'm estranged
Speaker 1: from my mother, should I send her a birthday card?
Speaker 1: I mean the way that you answer, the way you
Speaker 1: weave in your own experiences, the way that you have
Speaker 1: allusions to literature, to other more universal stories. It really
Speaker 1: is a un gift. Cheryl. You are such a compelling writer.
Speaker 1: Thank you, And then to put yourself, you know, in
Speaker 1: the position now for over ten years of giving people
Speaker 1: advice must have started off feeling kind of scary, like,
Speaker 1: you know, did you wonder when you were asked to
Speaker 1: pick up this column, how can I give advice? Or
Speaker 1: I'm the one needing advice? Which I think, of course
Speaker 1: that was the first thing I thought, is who am I,
Speaker 1: you know, to be giving advice? Which I think is
Speaker 1: always the person you want to go to for advice
Speaker 1: because the person who thinks that they have all the
Speaker 1: answers is the person who you're probably not going to
Speaker 1: listen to. Right. We don't tend to enjoy being lectured
Speaker 1: or feeling inferior to somebody. We tend to seek counsel
Speaker 1: from somebody who they're down there. I always say I'm
Speaker 1: down in the muck with the people who seek advice
Speaker 1: from me. And so I think of myself as someone
Speaker 1: as a writer who's job is to engage in a
Speaker 1: really deep, deep, profound way with the truth and not
Speaker 1: just to sit around and say, wow, this is what
Speaker 1: I think or this is how I feel, but really
Speaker 1: dig more deeply into the sort of the questions that
Speaker 1: sit below the questions that have been posed to me.
Speaker 1: That's a really important point, Yeah, because when someone asks
Speaker 1: you something, it's often not really what they're asking you,
Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, even just that question
Speaker 1: that you decided, where a woman who's estranged from her
Speaker 1: mother for good reasons, should I send her a birthday
Speaker 1: card or not? You know, that's the question you think
Speaker 1: you have for me. But what you're really grappling with
Speaker 1: is how are you going to live with this? This gigantic,
Speaker 1: sad decision that you've had to make to strange yourself
Speaker 1: from this person who is supposed to be the closest
Speaker 1: relationship of your life. Right And so it's a big question.
Speaker 1: And what I often try to get people to do
Speaker 1: is really grapple with the bigger questions. Right. Well, the
Speaker 1: way that you answered that particular question was especially meaningful
Speaker 1: because you talked about your own estrangement from your father,
Speaker 1: and it happened to be around the time that he
Speaker 1: passed away, after you had not had any contact with
Speaker 1: him for many years. And just you're sharing what it
Speaker 1: meant to have to cut off contact with your own father.
Speaker 1: And you have a line in there which I was
Speaker 1: so struck by you were sad because you weren't sad.
Speaker 1: You had, in effect kind of made your peace with
Speaker 1: not having a relationship with him. You gave permission to
Speaker 1: not just the person seeking the advice, but all of
Speaker 1: us who were reading that column to think about our
Speaker 1: own lives, to think about our own relationships. And you know,
Speaker 1: I I was really sad when my father died, in
Speaker 1: part because I really had a difficult experience and connecting
Speaker 1: with him emotionally. You know, he was like the typical,
Speaker 1: you know, product of the Great Depression. He was a
Speaker 1: guy's guy who played football at Penn State, and then
Speaker 1: you know, in World War Two he was a chief
Speaker 1: petty officer training you know, young men to go off
Speaker 1: to fight in the Pacific. And there was a side
Speaker 1: to him that I saw glimpses of which was really sensitive,
Speaker 1: more emotionally astute than he seemed to be in most
Speaker 1: of his daily interactions. And I, you know, I loved
Speaker 1: him and I was grateful to him, but there was
Speaker 1: ambivalence about, Oh, wouldn't it have been terrific if we
Speaker 1: could have really connected, like you know, we could have
Speaker 1: had so much more than we were capable of having,
Speaker 1: And that your column just made me think about that, uh,
Speaker 1: and made me reflect back on, you know, what I
Speaker 1: did have, for which I was very grateful me. One
Speaker 1: of my favorite memories of my father is even when
Speaker 1: I was a little girl and I would I would
Speaker 1: say to him, would you will you always love me?
Speaker 1: And he'd say, oh, yes, And I'd say will you
Speaker 1: love me if I murder somebody? He'd say, well, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't like what you did, but I would love you.
Speaker 1: And you know that was an interesting kind of basic
Speaker 1: way of saying, I will unconditionally love you, but I
Speaker 1: won't always like what you do. So even a column
Speaker 1: that wasn't directly connected with my own life caused me
Speaker 1: to think about, you know, my own father. Oh. I
Speaker 1: love hearing that. Hillary, and I do believe that when
Speaker 1: we tell the truth about our lives, about what it's
Speaker 1: like to be a daughter or a son, or a parent,
Speaker 1: or a spouse or you know, fill in the blank,
Speaker 1: when we really are honest about it, all kinds of
Speaker 1: people will see themselves in us, even if their story
Speaker 1: isn't an exact parallel or corollary. And I think that,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things you point out when
Speaker 1: I said I was sad about not being sad, you know,
Speaker 1: I spent years of my life grieving my dad. I
Speaker 1: have and everyone out there who's listening to these words
Speaker 1: right now, or who read that column, who's who's had
Speaker 1: to let somebody go who they loved to know what
Speaker 1: it feels like to actually really say I grieve you,
Speaker 1: and I release you from my life, even though you
Speaker 1: will go on living. You know, that's a big thing
Speaker 1: to do. And I love knowing when I write those
Speaker 1: words that people out there are helped by them, not
Speaker 1: just the person who wrote me the letter. And then
Speaker 1: other people like you say, well, I identify with aspects
Speaker 1: of what she just said. In a sense, you do
Speaker 1: have a front row seat on our collective psyche. And
Speaker 1: thinking about when you first started the Deer Sugar column
Speaker 1: ten years ago and then you took the hiatus, have
Speaker 1: the problems changed. Have people's concerns changed over that ten
Speaker 1: year period. That's an interesting question and the answer is
Speaker 1: yes and no. So there's always the same problems with
Speaker 1: love and merit and will anyone ever loved me? And
Speaker 1: how do I you know, should I stay in this relationship?
Speaker 1: Or you know, the family conflicts they never change with
Speaker 1: universal But there is one category of letter that I
Speaker 1: have received so many letters like this over the last
Speaker 1: couple of years, and that is the conflicts about politics
Speaker 1: and belief systems. You know, especially in the lead up
Speaker 1: to the election, you know, people were saying, do I
Speaker 1: go to my mother's birthday celebration because I know, you
Speaker 1: know a lot of her family are Trump voters and
Speaker 1: I'm not, and we'll fight, and you know, I don't
Speaker 1: want to disturb you know, what, what do I do
Speaker 1: if I'm dating somebody who has different political values. In
Speaker 1: a couple of cases, it wasn't so much about who
Speaker 1: they voted for, but beliefs that were espoused about race
Speaker 1: or you know, somebody's saying you're racist for saying this,
Speaker 1: or you're homophobic for saying that, and then that causing
Speaker 1: um a lot of family turmoil and sometimes in romantic
Speaker 1: relationships too. And then of course there's this category of
Speaker 1: people saying, I'm in despair about the state of our country,
Speaker 1: right I'm worried about the divisiveness, I'm worried about the
Speaker 1: anti factors, I'm worried about climate change and the powers
Speaker 1: that be not really taking those those issues seriously. And
Speaker 1: so that's a pretty new category. I mean, I used
Speaker 1: to get a couple of letters like that, but now
Speaker 1: there's dozens of them, which probably doesn't surprise you. It
Speaker 1: doesn't surprise me because I get the same letters. I
Speaker 1: get the same kind of encounters from people literally walking
Speaker 1: down the street. Do you have any thoughts about how
Speaker 1: number One, you do deal with people who are in
Speaker 1: your life but literally you can't listen to I have
Speaker 1: one friend whose father isn't just a staunch supporter of Trump,
Speaker 1: but taunts her and you know, is constantly in her
Speaker 1: face about you know, how great Trump is and how
Speaker 1: wrong everybody is. And up until now she has felt
Speaker 1: like she could tolerate his idiosyncrasies and eccentricities and some
Speaker 1: of his behavior, which you know sometimes you know, very
Speaker 1: over the top. But now she feels like, what do
Speaker 1: I don't want to end a relationship over a political difference. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, it is complicated. What I try to do
Speaker 1: first is remember that, yes, absolutely, things are extraordinarily divisive now,
Speaker 1: and I would say that we're in a place that
Speaker 1: we've never quite been to this extreme. And yet it's
Speaker 1: also true that there has always been profound and deep
Speaker 1: and real political disagreements in the nation and among families,
Speaker 1: and you know, to take a breath and have some
Speaker 1: perspective about this. I mean, I remember my own grandmother,
Speaker 1: my mother's mother, who I loved. You know, we would
Speaker 1: get in these terrible arguments. She would say things like
Speaker 1: feminist ruined, feminist ruined. This country's so yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 1: you've been there, and we can laugh about it now
Speaker 1: because it's like okay, you know, so you know, with her,
Speaker 1: what I thought is Okay, I disagree with you, and
Speaker 1: I'm upset that you said that, But there are things
Speaker 1: I love about you, and there are important connections we have,
Speaker 1: and I'm just going to really focus on those things.
Speaker 1: And maybe we're not going to talk about feminism, maybe
Speaker 1: we're not going to talk about reproductive rights because we disagree.
Speaker 1: So avoidance is a key thing in those relationships. But
Speaker 1: what I would say to your friend you said that, um,
Speaker 1: you know, her father taunts her about politics, and I
Speaker 1: think the direction I would go in that relationship is
Speaker 1: set aside the subject of that taunting, to say, listen,
Speaker 1: would I allow this person to taunt me about you know,
Speaker 1: fill in the blank, about my looks or about my
Speaker 1: food I cooked for him, or you know, whatever that is.
Speaker 1: It's rude behavior. It doesn't matter what they're talking about.
Speaker 1: And that she can draw boundary and say she's not saying, listen,
Speaker 1: we're not going to talk politics. She's saying, listen, you're
Speaker 1: going to treat me with loving, kindness and respect. And
Speaker 1: if you can't, you know, we need to take a
Speaker 1: little distance. I think when somebody's me to you and
Speaker 1: rude to you or disrespectful, you have the right to
Speaker 1: set a boundary, and you should. I'm with you completely
Speaker 1: on that. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us.
Speaker 1: You know, is there some particular piece of advice that
Speaker 1: you can recall that you've given over the years that
Speaker 1: surprised you in the way it resonated with people. Well,
Speaker 1: I hear from people, honestly every day, and it's been
Speaker 1: so interesting to see the ways that my advice has
Speaker 1: been taken into so many people's lives. The one that
Speaker 1: honestly did surprise me that I hear about a lot
Speaker 1: as a letter I wrote many years ago called the
Speaker 1: Truth that Lives There, and I answered three letters instead
Speaker 1: of one in this column, which I rarely do, but
Speaker 1: I did it because I have so many letters in
Speaker 1: this category. I wanted people to see the different stories
Speaker 1: that were being sent to me, the different letters, and
Speaker 1: what the letters were about is is this conundrum. I
Speaker 1: care about this person I'm in a relationship with. I
Speaker 1: love this person i'm in a relationship with, and I
Speaker 1: want to end the relationship, but I feel bad about
Speaker 1: doing it because he or she hasn't done anything quote
Speaker 1: unquote wrong. And I wrote a letter back in which
Speaker 1: I said, essentially, it's okay to do that. You know,
Speaker 1: if you want to leave, it's okay to leave, because
Speaker 1: wanting to leave is enough. You know, there's a way
Speaker 1: to say to somebody, this is the truth about how
Speaker 1: I feel, and this is what I need for my life.
Speaker 1: It's a very simple thing. And yet I was surprised
Speaker 1: by how many people said that changed my life. Nobody
Speaker 1: had ever said to me that I could trust myself
Speaker 1: like that, that I could grant myself that kind of permission.
Speaker 1: And of course I'm not talking about just any time
Speaker 1: there's conflict in a relationship you could say, oh it's over,
Speaker 1: I up and leave. I'm talking about, you know, if
Speaker 1: you're really feeling like something's not right for you. And
Speaker 1: and this is kind of connected to this question you
Speaker 1: just asked me about your friend whose father taughts her
Speaker 1: about politics. Is ultimately about very calmly stating what you
Speaker 1: want to need in your life. And you want a
Speaker 1: need a father who doesn't taunt you. You want and
Speaker 1: need relationships that you feel content to be a part
Speaker 1: of or happy to be a part of. And we
Speaker 1: I think especially as women and girls, but I would
Speaker 1: I say men and boys get this too. For some reason,
Speaker 1: we're told not to trust ourselves a lot, and I
Speaker 1: think so much of the work that I do is
Speaker 1: about trying to shed light on that and maybe undo
Speaker 1: some of that. I mean, I think the most radical
Speaker 1: act is to tell the truth about who you are
Speaker 1: and what you want. And how hard that is. It's
Speaker 1: so hard, and it is and we now know from
Speaker 1: a lot of research that's being done that your body
Speaker 1: knows that you're not living your truth. That the aches
Speaker 1: and pains, physical even ailments can often be connected to
Speaker 1: you lying to yourself. You're not being truthful to yourself,
Speaker 1: and your body is like, this is not working for me,
Speaker 1: and so please figure that out right. It's it's interesting
Speaker 1: too that you say research shows this, because you're right.
Speaker 1: But the question I have for you is that research
Speaker 1: doesn't even need to show it because we know it.
Speaker 1: Like do you know that feeling you know? Have you
Speaker 1: had times in your life? In fact, I know the
Speaker 1: answer is yes, when you know something's not right and
Speaker 1: you feel it in your body or you know something
Speaker 1: is right that you're like, Okay, I just have a
Speaker 1: good feeling about this or this is what's right for me,
Speaker 1: and it's I'm not making it out of avoidance or denial.
Speaker 1: I've really thought about it, I've done deep about it,
Speaker 1: and this is what's right for me. I have to
Speaker 1: ask you, um, you know, do your kids ever ask
Speaker 1: you for your advice? Or are they to footbal teenagers
Speaker 1: don't think you have anything to tell them? Please? No,
Speaker 1: of course they don't ask me. No. I might give
Speaker 1: them advice Hillary, but they do not. They do not
Speaker 1: listen to it or follow it in any way. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that that's been the heart. I mean you,
Speaker 1: you know, you've lived through it with Chelsea, right like
Speaker 1: you've parented a teen, and there she is now, this
Speaker 1: nice young woman of full grown up, a mother herself.
Speaker 1: I've had to really lean on women friends of mine
Speaker 1: who have older kids, and I just say, okay, so
Speaker 1: are they going to absorb some of these values? Because
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, my husband Brian and I sometimes have
Speaker 1: felt really a kind of crisis of consciousness about this
Speaker 1: because we are both very political, very much activist to
Speaker 1: My husband's a documentary filmmaker and has made all kinds
Speaker 1: of important films about social issues, and I have too,
Speaker 1: and certainly we can see that our kids have absorbed that.
Speaker 1: You know that they both are incredibly their progressives, and
Speaker 1: they're there. They even push us further on areas issues.
Speaker 1: They're very outspoken. But when it comes to values like
Speaker 1: I don't know, clean up after yourself, you know, like
Speaker 1: do your own dishes, like leave a place better than
Speaker 1: you found it, that value has not been absorbed at all,
Speaker 1: you know, Cheryl, I am such a fan of yours
Speaker 1: for so many reasons, but your openness, your honesty, your kindness,
Speaker 1: your constant quest for wisdom, which is a word I
Speaker 1: revere because it can only come if you have lived
Speaker 1: awhile and you've seen a lot, and you're trying to
Speaker 1: absorb what it all means. Is such a a light shining.
Speaker 1: And I want to end by you know, asking you
Speaker 1: what do you see for the future. How do you
Speaker 1: see both individuals and us collectively finding our way to
Speaker 1: more stable ground after all we have experienced. Well, I
Speaker 1: think that's the only way any of us can find
Speaker 1: our way to stable ground, whether it be individually or
Speaker 1: collectively as a nation, is to do so much of
Speaker 1: what we've been talking about Hillary comes down to being
Speaker 1: brave enough to tell the truth as often as possible
Speaker 1: to the people who need to hear it. Trusting yourself
Speaker 1: and expecting the kind of love and compassion and kindness
Speaker 1: and light you put into the world, expecting it in return,
Speaker 1: And that to me describes an empowered person. You know,
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that you have spent a lifetime
Speaker 1: believing that we as individuals can make a political difference
Speaker 1: in the world, whether it be as simple as making
Speaker 1: sure we always cast that vote, whether it being are
Speaker 1: the tiniest local election or the national elections, or you know,
Speaker 1: giving back to our communities and whatever way way we can.
Speaker 1: And I think that you know, that kind of work,
Speaker 1: that kind of what I'll just call sort of public
Speaker 1: work UM, is really connected to the private work we
Speaker 1: do in our lives in nurturing our own sense of
Speaker 1: emotional well being UM, nurturing the relationships that are meaningful
Speaker 1: and that matter to us. And so this very intimate
Speaker 1: advice giving I do, as dear Sugar, I think, does
Speaker 1: have social impact and does have political impact, because the
Speaker 1: kind of person you are in your very own home
Speaker 1: and your very own school and your very own community
Speaker 1: really extends out into the kind of citizen you are.
Speaker 1: And so there's a lot at stake when it comes
Speaker 1: to UM figuring out how to be in the world
Speaker 1: and what we believe we're capable of. And so when
Speaker 1: I think of the way forward, what I always think
Speaker 1: is the work I can do today. It really matters.
Speaker 1: And I think that's true of everyone every morning when
Speaker 1: we when we wake up, we have something to give,
Speaker 1: and the only way we can give it is if
Speaker 1: we take care of ourselves. Amen. Amen, my friend. Well,
Speaker 1: I cannot thank you enough for joining me for this podcast,
Speaker 1: and I know that our listeners are going to relish
Speaker 1: hearing from you. Uh and I look forward to our
Speaker 1: past crossing and a continuation of this conversation. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for having me on your show. It's always
Speaker 1: really a pleasure to speak to you. You always share
Speaker 1: some wisdom and I'm grateful for that. You can get
Speaker 1: more of Cheryl's Dear Sugar column by subscribing to her
Speaker 1: substack at Cheryl Strait dot substack dot com. Advice comes
Speaker 1: in many forms and from many sources. Some folks build
Speaker 1: entire careers out of giving advice, from acclaimed writers like
Speaker 1: Cheryl to political consultants like my next guest, Luise Miranda.
Speaker 1: Born in Puerto Rico, Luis came to New York in
Speaker 1: the early nineteen seventies and almost immediately became a force
Speaker 1: as an activist and leader. A veteran of multiple mayoral
Speaker 1: administrations in the City of New York, Luise became a
Speaker 1: fixture in New York politics, launching his own consulting firm
Speaker 1: and becoming known for his astute advice and his uncanny
Speaker 1: ability to bring people together, which, boy, do we need
Speaker 1: now more than ever. As I mentioned at the top
Speaker 1: of this episode, when I began thinking about launching my
Speaker 1: campaign for public office, my very first to run for
Speaker 1: the Senate from New York, Luise became an invaluable advisor.
Speaker 1: It is always a pleasure catching up with him, and
Speaker 1: it's not easy because he never stops moving from his campaigns,
Speaker 1: to his philanthropy to his artistic endeavors. He's one of
Speaker 1: the most energetic and hard working people I know. When
Speaker 1: we spoke, his son Lens catchy song we Don't Talk
Speaker 1: About Bruno from Disney's hit movie in Canto was at
Speaker 1: the top of the charts. So let me start just
Speaker 1: by checking in. Have you and your family been running
Speaker 1: around singing we Don't talk about Bruno? NonStop? Is? Yes? Uh?
Speaker 1: In fuck? I take Lee Manuel's little one to school
Speaker 1: and we play. We don't talk about Bruno non stop
Speaker 1: until we get to school. So for forty five minutes
Speaker 1: we're singing, we don't talk about Bruno. My two older
Speaker 1: grandchildren are exactly the same way. My granddaughter wakes up
Speaker 1: singing it. Well, I want to talk about you too.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously we both are huge admirers of Lynn Manuel,
Speaker 1: but I'm also a huge admirer of you, Louise. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I think I first met you back in
Speaker 1: the late nineties when I was thinking about running for
Speaker 1: the Senate, and everybody I talked to in New York said,
Speaker 1: there's one person you have to talk to. That's Louise Miranda,
Speaker 1: And I said, okay. And I was so grateful to
Speaker 1: have your help and your guidance during that campaign. And
Speaker 1: you've been involved in New York politics for a long time,
Speaker 1: you know, in as I recall the story, you went
Speaker 1: from picketing then mayor and got to working for him.
Speaker 1: So yeah, tell me and our listeners how you got
Speaker 1: involved in New York politics, and particularly this cotch story,
Speaker 1: because that's a really interesting way. It's really interesting, Hillary,
Speaker 1: because when I came to New York in the early seventies.
Speaker 1: I was so typical migrant from Porto Rico. Takes a
Speaker 1: little while for you to pay any attention to your
Speaker 1: local politics, and it took a little while for me
Speaker 1: to understand the importance of politics in our lives, from
Speaker 1: when do they pick up the garbage and how frequently
Speaker 1: they pick up the garbage to the big palace of
Speaker 1: the sessions that impact all of ours. So I got
Speaker 1: involved when we moved to Washington Heights in the Parents
Speaker 1: Movement District six UH with an overcrowded district, one of
Speaker 1: three very overcrowded districts in the city of New York.
Speaker 1: And my daughter was going too one of those schools,
Speaker 1: and got involved in school board politics to increase and
Speaker 1: advocate to increase the number of schools. And then this
Speaker 1: catch opportunity came up and sort of a friend said,
Speaker 1: why don't you apply. I'm like, I don't know that
Speaker 1: you apply to be special advisor to the mayor. I
Speaker 1: think that your call upon who served in positions like that.
Speaker 1: You don't just send a resume. Uh, but I did
Speaker 1: send the resume. This story leaves out a little of
Speaker 1: the color, Luise, because you were picketing him, fighting for
Speaker 1: more schools, and you were often the person when the
Speaker 1: mayor would show up somewhere who was leading the charge, yelling,
Speaker 1: you know, demanding and honestly having known a conscious I
Speaker 1: was lucky enough to I think they saw a like
Speaker 1: minded person in you, and you know got you that job.
Speaker 1: I will tell you when I had the interview the mayor,
Speaker 1: set listen, you and I are not going to agree
Speaker 1: on everything, but I think you and I are going
Speaker 1: to agree on fundamental things for the Latino community. And
Speaker 1: he went through a list of those and then he said, however,
Speaker 1: when you disagree with me, you have to do it privately. Right,
Speaker 1: that's fair? And I thought, well, this seems like a
Speaker 1: fair ask from someone who's going to be my boss. Yes. Right,
Speaker 1: And you did become a political consultant, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's a word we throw around a lot, but I
Speaker 1: think it'd be interesting for people outside of politics to
Speaker 1: know what does that mean? Kind of walk us through,
Speaker 1: you know, a kind of typical experience with somebody who's
Speaker 1: thinking about running for office. What kind of advice do
Speaker 1: they typically want? What is it you provide for them?
Speaker 1: I really start Hillary with trying to understand who that
Speaker 1: person is at the end of the day. My training
Speaker 1: as a clinical psychologist, which I thought was the waste
Speaker 1: of my time, actually came handy. I just want to
Speaker 1: make sure that you are who you say you are,
Speaker 1: because voters are not stupid. Voters are looking for people
Speaker 1: who are telling a story that it's real so that
Speaker 1: they can connect with them. At the end of the day,
Speaker 1: whatever you're talking about has to go hand in hand
Speaker 1: with whatever it's happening in society, and you have to
Speaker 1: have a connection from a particular point of view. If
Speaker 1: you are a conservative, that's not a candidate that I'm
Speaker 1: interested in helping, but I understand that that is a perspective.
Speaker 1: So I want to connect with whomever the candidate is.
Speaker 1: And then I want to spend some time figuring out
Speaker 1: what is the best way to tell your message. And
Speaker 1: then there's the part that is part of the science.
Speaker 1: You also need to look at pulse. You want to
Speaker 1: see what the electorate it's thinking. You want to know
Speaker 1: what your district it's like. You know, people tend to
Speaker 1: throw all latinos in the same box. Big mistake, big mistake.
Speaker 1: So if you're running on the district where half of
Speaker 1: the people are humans or venezuelans. That's a very different mindset.
Speaker 1: So I want to know all of that. Well, you've
Speaker 1: given advice to nearly everybody on the Democratic side in
Speaker 1: New York. I know Chuck Schumer, Kirsen, gillibrand obviously Attorney
Speaker 1: General Tis James, and many many others. It has to
Speaker 1: sometimes be hard to deliver difficult news or to tell
Speaker 1: somebody who's running you know this isn't working. You've got
Speaker 1: to shift gears. How do you talk to somebody when
Speaker 1: you know the advice is difficult, or you actually meet
Speaker 1: resistance as the person doesn't want to hear it. I
Speaker 1: think the most you could do is to talk it out.
Speaker 1: First of all, there's better moments than others. Sometimes things
Speaker 1: are happening in real time and you have to give
Speaker 1: news in real time. But for the most part, there
Speaker 1: is better times than others, and you're looking for those
Speaker 1: better times. Where you're candidate, it's more relaxed, it's less tired,
Speaker 1: it's willing to listen. And the second part, I just
Speaker 1: believe in pull the band aids off. I not want
Speaker 1: to sugarcoat, but just to say it and let's talk
Speaker 1: it over. So then we figure out what it's the
Speaker 1: best way to proceed. But I believe in telling the truth.
Speaker 1: I believe it in my family, I believe it in
Speaker 1: my work. Sometimes I'm a little around the ages, you know.
Speaker 1: My wife tells me, can you sugarcoat it a little?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I'm not the best doing that, but
Speaker 1: I'm willing to talk it over until he feels better. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I get it. You said something that I want to
Speaker 1: unpack a little bit because I don't think people really
Speaker 1: understand the importance of you pointing out that when we
Speaker 1: talk about the Latino community, this is not a monolithic community.
Speaker 1: There is so much difference in background, approach. Lots of
Speaker 1: times you know where they stand on political issues of
Speaker 1: all kinds, and you have particular expertise in reaching Latino voters.
Speaker 1: And what is the first thing you think about that
Speaker 1: any candidate should do if they want to reach and
Speaker 1: convince Latino voters to support them. Let's understand who's the audience.
Speaker 1: Are we in a community that is predominantly met Mexican,
Speaker 1: were in a community that is predominantly Puerto Rican? How
Speaker 1: old is this community in your district? It's not the
Speaker 1: same thing to be in Arizona when you're talking to
Speaker 1: third generation Mexican Americans and newly migrated Mexican Americans. So
Speaker 1: you need to know a bit of who the audience
Speaker 1: is before you open your mouth, particularly if you don't
Speaker 1: have a history with that group. If you have a
Speaker 1: history with that group, it's a totally different mulgame. You know,
Speaker 1: percent people would tell me during the last election, will
Speaker 1: get the lion's share of Cubans for Biden because you
Speaker 1: got meaning you, Hillary Clinton, you got the lions share
Speaker 1: of Cubans for you. Different reality, You had a relationship
Speaker 1: for years. So it's not the same thing when you're
Speaker 1: introducing someone, not because they don't know who he is,
Speaker 1: but they want to really figure out ideologically who that
Speaker 1: person is exactly. Well, you know, I think sometimes people
Speaker 1: forget it comes back to relationships. You have to know
Speaker 1: people and they have to know you. And how do
Speaker 1: you think we could better convey and direct Democrats to
Speaker 1: do a better job and understanding and communicating with the
Speaker 1: Latino voters. Uh, to make sure they know what the
Speaker 1: issues are, to make sure they know who the audience
Speaker 1: it's going to be. Uh. You don't go to South
Speaker 1: Texas to talk about open borders, right, do you go
Speaker 1: to South Texas to figure out how do we continue
Speaker 1: to have a relationship with our neighbors. How do we
Speaker 1: make sure our new neighbors come in an orderly fashion
Speaker 1: into the country. Because we do make a better country
Speaker 1: and a diverse country. It's a better country. But you
Speaker 1: need to convey to people that you do believe that
Speaker 1: it must happen in an orderly fashion. And I think
Speaker 1: that part of the issue. Also, it's we criticized the
Speaker 1: Republicans at seventies seven percent of them or seventies six
Speaker 1: percent of them are with Trump. They are a monolithic
Speaker 1: party right now, We're not right. We have a diversity
Speaker 1: of opinions, and as a result, we have to learn
Speaker 1: about what that diversity of opinions are and who are
Speaker 1: the best messengers for different Latino communities. That's exactly right.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Well, you know, we've got a
Speaker 1: new governor and a new mayor in New York. Kathy
Speaker 1: Hoco is the governor and Eric Adams is our new mayor.
Speaker 1: Have you given advice to either or both of them?
Speaker 1: I actually ended up in the Mayor's transition committee in
Speaker 1: Arts and Culture as well, as in the Appointment Committee.
Speaker 1: So I have had the opportunity to work with some
Speaker 1: of the team and it has been a great experience.
Speaker 1: The only thing that happens Hillary when we get older
Speaker 1: is that I care less and less about what somebody
Speaker 1: else thinks. Amen. Brother, I think that with age comes
Speaker 1: wisdom quote and quote, and the ability to be a
Speaker 1: little bit more honest about how you see the world.
Speaker 1: And you've never been shy before you got older. I
Speaker 1: have never been shy. As I get older, I get bolder.
Speaker 1: I love that older and bolder. I love it. So
Speaker 1: you could tell me I don't think that I'm going
Speaker 1: to do that, and that's cool, I understand. But you
Speaker 1: asked from my advice, I'm giving it to you. Well.
Speaker 1: The other thing that you and I have worked on
Speaker 1: is uh your commitment to helping candidates get elected across
Speaker 1: our country. And you chair a group that I've worked
Speaker 1: with and that I think is doing terrific, you know,
Speaker 1: candidate Recruitment and Support, and that's called the Latino Victory Fund.
Speaker 1: When you think about encouraging people to run for office,
Speaker 1: do you think we're making progress convincing democrats and in
Speaker 1: your case, Latino democrats to run for the unglamorous offices
Speaker 1: the school board, like you started off in politics advocating
Speaker 1: for the local jobs that you know, even boards of
Speaker 1: election which the Republicans are literally trying to take over.
Speaker 1: Are we making progress convincing people on our side of
Speaker 1: the political aisle to do that. I think we are good. Okay,
Speaker 1: we know that to create the bench, you don't start
Speaker 1: by running for president. And sometimes I meet with candidates
Speaker 1: who said I want to run for Congress. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: have you thought about your local assembly, your local city council?
Speaker 1: Because politics it's no different than any other profession. You learn,
Speaker 1: ask you do. I hear my son respond all the time.
Speaker 1: People said to him, Hamilton's was a much more complex
Speaker 1: creation that in the heights. And of course I know
Speaker 1: more about how to make r well. The same thing
Speaker 1: happens in politics. You become more season and by creating
Speaker 1: that bench, you need to work with people to run
Speaker 1: for all of those offices. Uh. We are doing a
Speaker 1: lot of that in Florida. We are doing a lot
Speaker 1: of that in Georgia. In places where we're beginning to
Speaker 1: increase population, you begin by creating a bench and by
Speaker 1: running people in smaller jurisdiction, more homogeneous jurisdictions where the
Speaker 1: issues are probably less, but they begin to get their
Speaker 1: policies ready when they go for higher office. Absolutely, you're,
Speaker 1: you know, a pretty effective parent. I mean, I know
Speaker 1: little bit about your family. You had a lot of
Speaker 1: help from. You know, your wife obviously Lose is a great, great,
Speaker 1: you know, partner and parent with you. She is she
Speaker 1: is the anchor you can tell. I mean, she really
Speaker 1: has such a an anchoring role in your lives. Um,
Speaker 1: do you have parenting advice? How did you raise you know,
Speaker 1: such a great daughter and such an amazing son. It's
Speaker 1: it's by being insightful and being able to put yourself
Speaker 1: in their shoes at whatever age they are, in whatever
Speaker 1: circumstances they're in. And sometimes the advice is no, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Sometimes the advice is no. But
Speaker 1: I always remember, and Emmanuel tells it very with a
Speaker 1: lot of tenderness that when he was off for a
Speaker 1: full time job at Hunter Elementary School as an English teacher.
Speaker 1: You know, those are the kinds of jobs that people
Speaker 1: kill for where you stayed there until you retire, and
Speaker 1: he was offered one of those jobs. He loved teaching
Speaker 1: And the incredible thing this is before emails, people actually
Speaker 1: wrote letters to each other. So I actually wrote me
Speaker 1: this letter and said, what do I do? Do I
Speaker 1: take this job or do I continue to be attempt
Speaker 1: make enough to pay the rent and continue to work
Speaker 1: in in the Heights, which was a musical that he'd
Speaker 1: been working on since he was in college, right and
Speaker 1: his first hit that he got his first Tony. And
Speaker 1: I thought to myself, a good parent will say take
Speaker 1: a full time job, you will love that job, you
Speaker 1: are a great teacher, and keep writing in the Heights
Speaker 1: on the side. But I knew that that was wrong,
Speaker 1: that I was him. I needed to have In the
Speaker 1: Heights as my priority. So being able to say, no, baby,
Speaker 1: you don't take the full time job. You continue to
Speaker 1: work in in the Heights. You make enough to pay
Speaker 1: your rent. You could continue and raid our refrigerator, but
Speaker 1: that's what you need to do as a twenty five
Speaker 1: year old kid. So being able to look at the
Speaker 1: issue from your kids perspective, it's key to be in
Speaker 1: a good parent. Well, it does sound like you learned
Speaker 1: a few things in that psychology course, you know, Luise.
Speaker 1: I just can't thank you enough for talking with me.
Speaker 1: You have done so much to move both candidates and
Speaker 1: issues forward. And yes, as we grow older, we grow
Speaker 1: bolder because you, you and I are not going off
Speaker 1: into the you know, into the sunset. As I say
Speaker 1: all the time, either someone in the office is going
Speaker 1: to call my wife and say he died, or my
Speaker 1: wife is going to call the office and said he
Speaker 1: didn't wake up. I'm going to be working until that
Speaker 1: last moment. I love it. Music to my ears. Thank you,
Speaker 1: my friend, Thank you for having me. Louise truly is
Speaker 1: non stop to keep up with all the great work
Speaker 1: he's doing. You can follow him on Twitter. And as
Speaker 1: you think about the advice you give and receive in
Speaker 1: your own life, always remember how important it is to
Speaker 1: pay attention to the advice your own body and mind
Speaker 1: give you two and to live your own truth as
Speaker 1: I talked about with Cheryl. And if you'd like to
Speaker 1: share advice you want to give, or you have ideas
Speaker 1: about out what we should talk about on our podcast,
Speaker 1: please email us at You and Me Both pod at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. You and Me Both is brought to
Speaker 1: you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran,
Speaker 1: Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Huma Aberdeen,
Speaker 1: Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Laura Olan,
Speaker 1: Lona Valmorrow, and Benita Zaman. Our engineer is Zack McNeice
Speaker 1: and the original music is by Forrest Gray. If you
Speaker 1: like you and me both, please tell someone else about it.
Speaker 1: And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you
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Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, and may you
Speaker 1: give and get some hard earned wisdom in the days ahead.
Speaker 1: And I'll see you next week. M