WEBVTT - Take My Advice (with Cheryl Strayed and Luis Miranda, Jr.) 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:03.680 You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:09.400 I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both. 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:13.160 You know, I've given a lot of advice over the years, 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:16.920 and I've also sought and received a lot of advice, 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:20.280 some of it better than others. But when it came 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:24.080 to launching my career running for the Senate in New York, 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:28.400 one person whose advice everyone told me to seek out 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:37.360 was that of Luise Miranda. A venerated political consultant. Louise 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:41.879 has given invaluable guidance to many New York candidates and 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:47.160 politicians over the years, including me as well here later 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.919 in this episode. He's also advised his son, the award 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:58.360 winning composer, lyricist, actor, producer, and director Lynn Manuel Miranda. 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:02.360 But when it comes to seeking advice on a more 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:06.000 personal level, I know I'm not alone and thinking, there's 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:10.240 no one quite like Cheryl Strade, And that's where we 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:15.480 start today's episode. Cheryl Strade is an acclaimed author, best 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:20.360 known for her stunning and brutally honest memoir Wild From 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:24.520 Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail, later made 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:30.399 into a hit film starring Reese Witherspoon in Cheryl began 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:36.040 anonymously writing the Dear Sugar advice column under the pseudonym Sugar. 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:41.240 Since then, the column developed a loyal following and has 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:45.160 had several lives, including as a podcast. It went on 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.080 hiatus for a while, but now she's brought it back 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.680 as a newsletter, which is good news to fans of 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:55.320 Cheryl's like I am. I've had the pleasure of getting 0:01:55.360 --> 0:02:00.640 to know her, spending time first together during my campaign 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:03.760 for president, and then she's interviewed me about my books, 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:07.400 and I've been a guest on her podcast. I always 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:10.400 love talking with Cheryl, and I was so delighted to 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:14.080 have the chance to now interview her for this podcast. 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:17.600 I began by asking Cheryl how things have been for 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:21.239 her and her family at home in Portland, Oregon over 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:25.600 the many, many months of this pandemic. To be honest, 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:29.280 I'm not alone in saying that these last couple of 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:31.919 years have been difficult ones in in my life and 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.600 my family's life. We're doing okay, but I have a 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:37.480 son and a daughter who are a junior and a 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:41.440 sophomore in high school, and it's been hard. I think 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:45.720 this pandemic has been especially difficult for teenagers people in 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:49.360 the early twenties. Of course, people who are older as well, 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:51.800 you know the terrible health risks that they've faced in 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:56.760 this pandemic. But teenagers socially mental health has been a struggle. 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.600 And I think, as we all know, adolescence is always 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:01.440 a difficul whole time, but it is a time when 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.320 you want to be with your peers and socializing and 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.079 having fun, and the pandemic has put a little crimp 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:10.840 in that, right. I have to say, I, for one, 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:15.360 was really pleased when you brought back the Dear Sugar 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:20.880 column last year after a couple of years hiatus as 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:25.520 a newsletter. What went into that decision about bringing back 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:29.360 the opportunity for you to hear from people and and 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:32.480 try to give some advice, right, So you know the 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.480 reason I brought it back, Really it goes back to 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:39.360 this essential belief that I have, and that is that 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:44.560 stories save us, the literature specifically, but are in general, 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:48.000 is the thing that allows us to see ourselves most clearly. 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.200 It tells us that we can go on. It tells 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:54.080 us that that we can endure suffering. It tell us 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:56.880 us that we can triumph, we can lose, we can 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:00.240 love that these experiences that we have, these struggles have, 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:04.760 they are universal and timeless, and so as a writer, 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:09.560 I have always felt that my mission my work in 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:13.600 an interesting way, not so unlike yours. You've spent your 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:17.320 lifetime as a public servant trying to make the world 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.240 a better place, make people's lives better. I've done that too, 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:22.800 in a very different way through writing. And what I 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:25.520 try to do is to remind us all of our 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:29.760 humanity that the universal threads that connect us. And of course, 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:32.520 in the Deer Sugar Advice column, I do that very 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:37.680 specifically because there is one person saying help, I'm struggling. 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.440 I can't go on. And what I try to do 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.320 is not just give advice. Anyone who reads the Deer 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:46.320 Sugar column knows that I don't just say Okay, do this, 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.080 this and this. What I say is, let us think 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.400 deeply about the question you're asking me. And so I 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.320 really just engage with people's struggles rather than telling them 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:58.719 what to do. And and I hope that that offers 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:04.719 some illuminations, consolation, something for them to hold onto so 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:08.080 they can't take that next step forward. Well, I think 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:13.159 that's the best kind of advice that anybody can give 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:19.120 to try to really understand in a radically empathetic way 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:21.719 what is going on, and the way that you do 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:28.520 it through storytelling really locates the advice in a broader 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:33.400 context so that it's not just the person writing into 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.359 you saying I'm a nurse and I have a teenager 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:39.719 and I've never been so tired or despairing, or in 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:44.160 a recent column where somebody said, you know, I'm estranged 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:46.600 from my mother, should I send her a birthday card? 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:48.800 I mean the way that you answer, the way you 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:53.120 weave in your own experiences, the way that you have 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:58.880 allusions to literature, to other more universal stories. It really 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:04.880 is a un gift. Cheryl. You are such a compelling writer. 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:08.280 Thank you, And then to put yourself, you know, in 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.800 the position now for over ten years of giving people 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:16.160 advice must have started off feeling kind of scary, like, 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:19.000 you know, did you wonder when you were asked to 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.840 pick up this column, how can I give advice? Or 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.840 I'm the one needing advice? Which I think, of course 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:29.440 that was the first thing I thought, is who am I, 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:31.640 you know, to be giving advice? Which I think is 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.600 always the person you want to go to for advice 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.200 because the person who thinks that they have all the 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:40.279 answers is the person who you're probably not going to 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:44.800 listen to. Right. We don't tend to enjoy being lectured 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:49.600 or feeling inferior to somebody. We tend to seek counsel 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.480 from somebody who they're down there. I always say I'm 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.400 down in the muck with the people who seek advice 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:58.520 from me. And so I think of myself as someone 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:01.680 as a writer who's job is to engage in a 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:05.480 really deep, deep, profound way with the truth and not 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:07.800 just to sit around and say, wow, this is what 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.120 I think or this is how I feel, but really 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:13.560 dig more deeply into the sort of the questions that 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.200 sit below the questions that have been posed to me. 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:20.440 That's a really important point, Yeah, because when someone asks 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:24.520 you something, it's often not really what they're asking you, 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.600 isn't it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, even just that question 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:31.880 that you decided, where a woman who's estranged from her 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.080 mother for good reasons, should I send her a birthday 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.640 card or not? You know, that's the question you think 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.520 you have for me. But what you're really grappling with 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:44.480 is how are you going to live with this? This gigantic, 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:49.400 sad decision that you've had to make to strange yourself 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.120 from this person who is supposed to be the closest 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.600 relationship of your life. Right And so it's a big question. 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.760 And what I often try to get people to do 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:02.240 is really grapple with the bigger questions. Right. Well, the 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:05.920 way that you answered that particular question was especially meaningful 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.600 because you talked about your own estrangement from your father, 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:13.360 and it happened to be around the time that he 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.920 passed away, after you had not had any contact with 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:21.760 him for many years. And just you're sharing what it 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:25.720 meant to have to cut off contact with your own father. 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.200 And you have a line in there which I was 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.960 so struck by you were sad because you weren't sad. 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.160 You had, in effect kind of made your peace with 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:40.200 not having a relationship with him. You gave permission to 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:44.440 not just the person seeking the advice, but all of 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:47.920 us who were reading that column to think about our 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.680 own lives, to think about our own relationships. And you know, 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:56.120 I I was really sad when my father died, in 0:08:56.240 --> 0:09:01.600 part because I really had a difficult experience and connecting 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:04.479 with him emotionally. You know, he was like the typical, 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:08.079 you know, product of the Great Depression. He was a 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:11.440 guy's guy who played football at Penn State, and then 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:13.720 you know, in World War Two he was a chief 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:16.640 petty officer training you know, young men to go off 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:19.880 to fight in the Pacific. And there was a side 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:24.839 to him that I saw glimpses of which was really sensitive, 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:29.400 more emotionally astute than he seemed to be in most 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:33.520 of his daily interactions. And I, you know, I loved 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:37.160 him and I was grateful to him, but there was 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.440 ambivalence about, Oh, wouldn't it have been terrific if we 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:44.160 could have really connected, like you know, we could have 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:47.720 had so much more than we were capable of having, 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:51.600 And that your column just made me think about that, uh, 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:54.480 and made me reflect back on, you know, what I 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:56.480 did have, for which I was very grateful me. One 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.160 of my favorite memories of my father is even when 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:01.400 I was a little girl and I would I would 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:03.400 say to him, would you will you always love me? 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.440 And he'd say, oh, yes, And I'd say will you 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:09.360 love me if I murder somebody? He'd say, well, I 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.040 wouldn't like what you did, but I would love you. 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:16.160 And you know that was an interesting kind of basic 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:18.839 way of saying, I will unconditionally love you, but I 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.679 won't always like what you do. So even a column 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:26.800 that wasn't directly connected with my own life caused me 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:30.440 to think about, you know, my own father. Oh. I 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:34.200 love hearing that. Hillary, and I do believe that when 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:38.320 we tell the truth about our lives, about what it's 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.800 like to be a daughter or a son, or a parent, 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:43.960 or a spouse or you know, fill in the blank, 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:46.800 when we really are honest about it, all kinds of 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:50.440 people will see themselves in us, even if their story 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.960 isn't an exact parallel or corollary. And I think that, 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.520 you know, one of the things you point out when 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.680 I said I was sad about not being sad, you know, 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:03.760 I spent years of my life grieving my dad. I 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:07.880 have and everyone out there who's listening to these words 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:10.280 right now, or who read that column, who's who's had 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.160 to let somebody go who they loved to know what 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:17.120 it feels like to actually really say I grieve you, 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:19.440 and I release you from my life, even though you 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:21.880 will go on living. You know, that's a big thing 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:25.040 to do. And I love knowing when I write those 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.440 words that people out there are helped by them, not 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:30.520 just the person who wrote me the letter. And then 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:33.000 other people like you say, well, I identify with aspects 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:36.720 of what she just said. In a sense, you do 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:40.480 have a front row seat on our collective psyche. And 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:45.120 thinking about when you first started the Deer Sugar column 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.960 ten years ago and then you took the hiatus, have 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:53.400 the problems changed. Have people's concerns changed over that ten 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.079 year period. That's an interesting question and the answer is 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:01.240 yes and no. So there's always the same problems with 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.800 love and merit and will anyone ever loved me? And 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:06.880 how do I you know, should I stay in this relationship? 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:11.240 Or you know, the family conflicts they never change with 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:15.800 universal But there is one category of letter that I 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:19.000 have received so many letters like this over the last 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:23.199 couple of years, and that is the conflicts about politics 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:28.319 and belief systems. You know, especially in the lead up 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.520 to the election, you know, people were saying, do I 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:36.040 go to my mother's birthday celebration because I know, you 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.840 know a lot of her family are Trump voters and 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:40.600 I'm not, and we'll fight, and you know, I don't 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:42.559 want to disturb you know, what, what do I do 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.840 if I'm dating somebody who has different political values. In 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:48.559 a couple of cases, it wasn't so much about who 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:51.840 they voted for, but beliefs that were espoused about race 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:55.719 or you know, somebody's saying you're racist for saying this, 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.800 or you're homophobic for saying that, and then that causing 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:02.120 um a lot of family turmoil and sometimes in romantic 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:05.160 relationships too. And then of course there's this category of 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.840 people saying, I'm in despair about the state of our country, 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:13.040 right I'm worried about the divisiveness, I'm worried about the 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:16.040 anti factors, I'm worried about climate change and the powers 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:19.320 that be not really taking those those issues seriously. And 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:21.600 so that's a pretty new category. I mean, I used 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.319 to get a couple of letters like that, but now 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:28.040 there's dozens of them, which probably doesn't surprise you. It 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.800 doesn't surprise me because I get the same letters. I 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:36.560 get the same kind of encounters from people literally walking 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:39.560 down the street. Do you have any thoughts about how 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.920 number One, you do deal with people who are in 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:45.920 your life but literally you can't listen to I have 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:50.600 one friend whose father isn't just a staunch supporter of Trump, 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.440 but taunts her and you know, is constantly in her 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:58.439 face about you know, how great Trump is and how 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:02.960 wrong everybody is. And up until now she has felt 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:07.120 like she could tolerate his idiosyncrasies and eccentricities and some 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.360 of his behavior, which you know sometimes you know, very 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.280 over the top. But now she feels like, what do 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:17.760 I don't want to end a relationship over a political difference. Well, 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.680 you know, it is complicated. What I try to do 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:27.040 first is remember that, yes, absolutely, things are extraordinarily divisive now, 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.040 and I would say that we're in a place that 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:32.200 we've never quite been to this extreme. And yet it's 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.960 also true that there has always been profound and deep 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.760 and real political disagreements in the nation and among families, 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:42.240 and you know, to take a breath and have some 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.040 perspective about this. I mean, I remember my own grandmother, 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:47.840 my mother's mother, who I loved. You know, we would 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:49.960 get in these terrible arguments. She would say things like 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:55.520 feminist ruined, feminist ruined. This country's so yeah, yeah, so 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.280 you've been there, and we can laugh about it now 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.400 because it's like okay, you know, so you know, with her, 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:03.440 what I thought is Okay, I disagree with you, and 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.880 I'm upset that you said that, But there are things 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.840 I love about you, and there are important connections we have, 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:11.880 and I'm just going to really focus on those things. 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.520 And maybe we're not going to talk about feminism, maybe 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.520 we're not going to talk about reproductive rights because we disagree. 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:20.360 So avoidance is a key thing in those relationships. But 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:22.960 what I would say to your friend you said that, um, 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:27.040 you know, her father taunts her about politics, and I 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.080 think the direction I would go in that relationship is 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.400 set aside the subject of that taunting, to say, listen, 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.680 would I allow this person to taunt me about you know, 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:40.600 fill in the blank, about my looks or about my 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.200 food I cooked for him, or you know, whatever that is. 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.240 It's rude behavior. It doesn't matter what they're talking about. 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:50.080 And that she can draw boundary and say she's not saying, listen, 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:52.640 we're not going to talk politics. She's saying, listen, you're 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.960 going to treat me with loving, kindness and respect. And 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:57.800 if you can't, you know, we need to take a 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.760 little distance. I think when somebody's me to you and 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.280 rude to you or disrespectful, you have the right to 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.680 set a boundary, and you should. I'm with you completely 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:13.160 on that. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us. 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:27.520 You know, is there some particular piece of advice that 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.360 you can recall that you've given over the years that 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:34.240 surprised you in the way it resonated with people. Well, 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:38.480 I hear from people, honestly every day, and it's been 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:42.160 so interesting to see the ways that my advice has 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.840 been taken into so many people's lives. The one that 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:47.400 honestly did surprise me that I hear about a lot 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.360 as a letter I wrote many years ago called the 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:53.440 Truth that Lives There, and I answered three letters instead 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:56.520 of one in this column, which I rarely do, but 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:58.600 I did it because I have so many letters in 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.960 this category. I wanted people to see the different stories 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:04.720 that were being sent to me, the different letters, and 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:08.040 what the letters were about is is this conundrum. I 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:10.639 care about this person I'm in a relationship with. I 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:13.520 love this person i'm in a relationship with, and I 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:17.160 want to end the relationship, but I feel bad about 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.600 doing it because he or she hasn't done anything quote 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:23.440 unquote wrong. And I wrote a letter back in which 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:27.159 I said, essentially, it's okay to do that. You know, 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.560 if you want to leave, it's okay to leave, because 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.720 wanting to leave is enough. You know, there's a way 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.640 to say to somebody, this is the truth about how 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:38.560 I feel, and this is what I need for my life. 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.200 It's a very simple thing. And yet I was surprised 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:46.439 by how many people said that changed my life. Nobody 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:49.400 had ever said to me that I could trust myself 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.080 like that, that I could grant myself that kind of permission. 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:55.080 And of course I'm not talking about just any time 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.480 there's conflict in a relationship you could say, oh it's over, 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.399 I up and leave. I'm talking about, you know, if 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.400 you're really feeling like something's not right for you. And 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.639 and this is kind of connected to this question you 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.000 just asked me about your friend whose father taughts her 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:14.679 about politics. Is ultimately about very calmly stating what you 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.320 want to need in your life. And you want a 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:20.199 need a father who doesn't taunt you. You want and 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:24.600 need relationships that you feel content to be a part 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.399 of or happy to be a part of. And we 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:29.760 I think especially as women and girls, but I would 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.639 I say men and boys get this too. For some reason, 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.840 we're told not to trust ourselves a lot, and I 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.280 think so much of the work that I do is 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:42.240 about trying to shed light on that and maybe undo 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:44.760 some of that. I mean, I think the most radical 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:46.600 act is to tell the truth about who you are 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.360 and what you want. And how hard that is. It's 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.760 so hard, and it is and we now know from 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:57.720 a lot of research that's being done that your body 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:02.679 knows that you're not living your truth. That the aches 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:08.359 and pains, physical even ailments can often be connected to 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:12.760 you lying to yourself. You're not being truthful to yourself, 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.920 and your body is like, this is not working for me, 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:20.600 and so please figure that out right. It's it's interesting 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.080 too that you say research shows this, because you're right. 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:27.000 But the question I have for you is that research 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:28.840 doesn't even need to show it because we know it. 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:30.919 Like do you know that feeling you know? Have you 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:32.800 had times in your life? In fact, I know the 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:36.040 answer is yes, when you know something's not right and 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:37.879 you feel it in your body or you know something 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.080 is right that you're like, Okay, I just have a 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:42.600 good feeling about this or this is what's right for me, 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:47.000 and it's I'm not making it out of avoidance or denial. 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.000 I've really thought about it, I've done deep about it, 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.280 and this is what's right for me. I have to 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:57.040 ask you, um, you know, do your kids ever ask 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:00.919 you for your advice? Or are they to footbal teenagers 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.639 don't think you have anything to tell them? Please? No, 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:07.800 of course they don't ask me. No. I might give 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:10.439 them advice Hillary, but they do not. They do not 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.640 listen to it or follow it in any way. I mean, 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:16.960 I think that that's been the heart. I mean you, 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.280 you know, you've lived through it with Chelsea, right like 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:21.760 you've parented a teen, and there she is now, this 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:24.879 nice young woman of full grown up, a mother herself. 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:29.000 I've had to really lean on women friends of mine 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:31.160 who have older kids, and I just say, okay, so 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.280 are they going to absorb some of these values? Because 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.280 I mean, honestly, my husband Brian and I sometimes have 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:39.800 felt really a kind of crisis of consciousness about this 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:44.560 because we are both very political, very much activist to 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:47.520 My husband's a documentary filmmaker and has made all kinds 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.120 of important films about social issues, and I have too, 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.520 and certainly we can see that our kids have absorbed that. 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:57.080 You know that they both are incredibly their progressives, and 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:00.679 they're there. They even push us further on areas issues. 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:05.000 They're very outspoken. But when it comes to values like 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:09.119 I don't know, clean up after yourself, you know, like 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:11.520 do your own dishes, like leave a place better than 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:15.440 you found it, that value has not been absorbed at all, 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.480 you know, Cheryl, I am such a fan of yours 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:26.359 for so many reasons, but your openness, your honesty, your kindness, 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:31.399 your constant quest for wisdom, which is a word I 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:35.000 revere because it can only come if you have lived 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:37.080 awhile and you've seen a lot, and you're trying to 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:43.800 absorb what it all means. Is such a a light shining. 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:46.680 And I want to end by you know, asking you 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:49.280 what do you see for the future. How do you 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:55.280 see both individuals and us collectively finding our way to 0:21:55.480 --> 0:22:00.720 more stable ground after all we have experienced. Well, I 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:03.320 think that's the only way any of us can find 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:06.400 our way to stable ground, whether it be individually or 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:09.639 collectively as a nation, is to do so much of 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:13.800 what we've been talking about Hillary comes down to being 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:16.480 brave enough to tell the truth as often as possible 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:19.879 to the people who need to hear it. Trusting yourself 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:26.200 and expecting the kind of love and compassion and kindness 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:29.040 and light you put into the world, expecting it in return, 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:34.040 And that to me describes an empowered person. You know, 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:36.720 I mean, I know that you have spent a lifetime 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:41.280 believing that we as individuals can make a political difference 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:44.560 in the world, whether it be as simple as making 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:46.639 sure we always cast that vote, whether it being are 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:50.840 the tiniest local election or the national elections, or you know, 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:53.400 giving back to our communities and whatever way way we can. 0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:55.800 And I think that you know, that kind of work, 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:57.639 that kind of what I'll just call sort of public 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:01.040 work UM, is really connected to the private work we 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:03.960 do in our lives in nurturing our own sense of 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:07.800 emotional well being UM, nurturing the relationships that are meaningful 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:11.080 and that matter to us. And so this very intimate 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:14.960 advice giving I do, as dear Sugar, I think, does 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:18.639 have social impact and does have political impact, because the 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:21.240 kind of person you are in your very own home 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:23.640 and your very own school and your very own community 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:26.120 really extends out into the kind of citizen you are. 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:28.879 And so there's a lot at stake when it comes 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:31.520 to UM figuring out how to be in the world 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:34.480