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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You?

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Speaker 1: From House top Works dot com. This podcast is brought

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Speaker 1: on female equality. That's The Feminine Mystique by Betty fre Dann,

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Speaker 1: get a free audiobook of your choice, go to Audible

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Speaker 1: podcast dot com slash Mom Stuff. That's Audible podcast dot

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Speaker 1: com slash Mom Stuff. Hello and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Caroline and I'm Kristen. Today our podcast is an

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Speaker 1: interview with Grammar Girl herself, Mignon Bogerty. And this is

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Speaker 1: very exciting for me because ever since I was very little. Um,

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Speaker 1: I have been a total grammar nerd and it is

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Speaker 1: all my father's fault. He and he's like this because

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Speaker 1: his father was like this. I don't know what his

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Speaker 1: grandfather was like. I can't attest to that. But my

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Speaker 1: dad always corrected my speech, like every time I said anything.

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Speaker 1: And you would think that would be annoying, but I

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Speaker 1: was always like, oh, yeah, you're right. It is I

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Speaker 1: not me. You're right dad. And so yeah, that's how

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Speaker 1: I grew up to be such a grammar nerd. And

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Speaker 1: so this is very exciting. I am quite a grammar

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Speaker 1: nerd myself as well. And I have a special love

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Speaker 1: of dashes and semi colon's if they're used properly. People

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Speaker 1: people tend. People who throw to me colins around like

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Speaker 1: confetti up set me. I mean, it's a you know,

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Speaker 1: it is an intimidating punctuation mark. It is, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: you do kind of have to handle it with care.

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Speaker 1: We are totally grammar nerdy, Yeah we are right now.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I was really excited to get to talk

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Speaker 1: to grammar Girl and really nerd out about grammar and

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Speaker 1: language and had some questions for her about how we

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Speaker 1: how gender intersects with grammar, and she also answered a

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Speaker 1: burning question that I have had about listeners particular distaste

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Speaker 1: for the phrase if you willer. Yeah, I I it's

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Speaker 1: something that the public, the public does not want it. Well,

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Speaker 1: there was a specific episode, um, I want to say,

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Speaker 1: it's why does the sizzle fizzle? And I think it

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Speaker 1: was after that a couple of listeners wrote in. They said, Kristin,

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Speaker 1: you are saying if you will all the time. It

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Speaker 1: is unnecessary verbal clutter. Get it out of there. And

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Speaker 1: I went back and listened and lo and behold, I

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Speaker 1: was if you will in left and right. I think

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Speaker 1: you should replace if you will with as you wish,

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Speaker 1: as you wish, as you wish, princess um and so

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Speaker 1: so yeah, it was fun to talk to the expert

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Speaker 1: about different different kinds of grammatical ticks and usage, and

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Speaker 1: also of course how Grammar Girl, who was a podcast goddess,

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Speaker 1: got her start and she now has UH it is

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Speaker 1: the flagship of the entire Quick and Dirty Tips franchise,

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Speaker 1: so it's pretty incredible. She's been podcasting for six years

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Speaker 1: and she started out as a as a technical writer.

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Speaker 1: She has a master's in science and that then did

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Speaker 1: some more technical writing. Interesting, you don't really hear about science. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: but you don't really hear about science people being awesome

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Speaker 1: a grammar Well that's kind of why, that's kind of

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Speaker 1: why grammar Girl even came into being. But I'll let

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Speaker 1: her tell you about that, Caroline. Interesting story. So, um,

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Speaker 1: with with no further uh, here is my interview with

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Speaker 1: Mignon Fogerty Grammar Girl. So Grammar Girl. I thought it

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Speaker 1: was very interesting that not only are you an expert

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Speaker 1: obviously in grammar, but you also have a master's in science.

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Speaker 1: So I was curious to know whether or not science

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Speaker 1: in language ever intersect for you these days. Well, there

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Speaker 1: are there are a few things that come up that

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Speaker 1: relate to science and grammar. The most obvious one is

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Speaker 1: passive voice, because you know, most people are taught that

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Speaker 1: passive voice is bad and they should never use it.

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Speaker 1: But in science writing it's sort of the standard. You know,

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Speaker 1: you'll say something in a scientific paper like, um, samples

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Speaker 1: were taken at five o'clock and ten o'clock and um.

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Speaker 1: You know, because you're always the scientists, you're always trying

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Speaker 1: to take yourself out of the writing to try and

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Speaker 1: maintain an air of objectivity, but even people in science

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Speaker 1: are trying. Some people are lobbying to get away from

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Speaker 1: so much use of the passive voice because it can

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Speaker 1: also be kind of hard to read. And then another

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Speaker 1: thing that comes to mind is the word data. So

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Speaker 1: data is one of those words that's changing how how

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Speaker 1: we use it in English? So um it comes from

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Speaker 1: Latin and dat um is the singular um, so typically

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Speaker 1: people say um, they treat data is plural the data

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Speaker 1: are interesting, but in common use it's becoming singular. So

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Speaker 1: in the newspaper or magazine it might be more common

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Speaker 1: to read the data is compelling, But scientists hold firmly

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Speaker 1: to that plural use of data, so it's not uncommon

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Speaker 1: at Obviously, data used as singular and plural, and it's

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Speaker 1: more often used as plural in science writing. So for

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Speaker 1: listeners to who might not be that familiar with Grammar

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Speaker 1: Girl and what you do, tell us how your podcast

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Speaker 1: and the the Grammar Girl franchise got off the ground,

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Speaker 1: right Well, I started a Grammar Girl gosh almost six

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Speaker 1: years ago now, and I was working as a technical

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Speaker 1: writer and a science writer, so I was working with

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Speaker 1: a lot of scientists editing their papers and even ghost

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Speaker 1: writing some papers, and um, I just noticed them making

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Speaker 1: the same mistakes over and over again, you know, and

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Speaker 1: I thought, if I have to replace that with a

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Speaker 1: witch one more time, I'm going to go crazy. So,

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Speaker 1: as almost a little passive aggressive thing, I started a

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Speaker 1: podcast as a hobby, just sort of to get those

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Speaker 1: rules out there. And I thought, nobody wants to have

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Speaker 1: a big, long grammar lesson, But if I can put

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Speaker 1: out a five minute quick tip every week about something

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Speaker 1: really useful, you know, like how do use a stomach

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Speaker 1: hole in or the difference between affect and effect, and

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Speaker 1: if I make it fun and light, and you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe people will listen, Maybe my clients will listen. And

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Speaker 1: it just became much more popular than I ever expected.

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Speaker 1: It was just sort of my hobby, and I guess

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Speaker 1: that's something from those days too that carries over because

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Speaker 1: a lot of those scientists were from other countries, and

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Speaker 1: I still hear from a lot of people who you know,

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Speaker 1: are learning English as a second language and they have

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Speaker 1: questions too, so they listen to the podcast too. So

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Speaker 1: in today's world of texting and tweeting and status updates,

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Speaker 1: where it seems like we're constantly abbreviating our language and

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Speaker 1: throwing out different kinds of slang and using text speak

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Speaker 1: and things like that. My big question is whether or

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Speaker 1: not grammar has lost its value. Well, in some ways,

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Speaker 1: I guess you could say it's lost it's I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say it's lost its value, but there in a lot

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Speaker 1: of the instances in which we right now, like status updates,

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Speaker 1: there's a permissiveness. It's a very informal place to be writing,

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Speaker 1: and we're all writing so much more than we used

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Speaker 1: to because of these informal situations, and so, you know,

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Speaker 1: as always like a tweet or a Facebook status update,

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Speaker 1: it's a lot like you know, a note you used

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Speaker 1: to jot down on a post and leave on your

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Speaker 1: kitchen counter for your family, you know, And I don't

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Speaker 1: think anyone would hold you to the highest standards of

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Speaker 1: grammar for those jotted notes. And a lot of people

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Speaker 1: think of tweets and updates the same way. But then

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Speaker 1: they're also so much more public, and people do notice

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Speaker 1: when you use bad grammar or especially you know, people

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Speaker 1: just hate it when you get the wrong version of

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Speaker 1: it's or your um. You know, there have been whole

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Speaker 1: internet memes about making fun of you know, your with

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Speaker 1: an apostrophe versus not an apostrophe. So even though there

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Speaker 1: is that extra sense of informality or permissiveness, people still

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Speaker 1: notice and they will jump all over you if you

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Speaker 1: make mistakes. So what what, then, would you say is

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Speaker 1: the most important reason to pay attention to grammar today?

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Speaker 1: Because I feel like a lot of times, uh, grammar

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Speaker 1: is considered sort of stodgy and old school. Um So why,

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Speaker 1: especially for younger people too, why should we pay attention

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Speaker 1: to it? Well, you know, for me at least, I

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Speaker 1: often don't meet people in person that I'm working with. Um,

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Speaker 1: and so a lot of business correspondence or you know,

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Speaker 1: semi personal correspondence all happens in writing. And so you're

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Speaker 1: writing actually is how you're making your impression on people.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, I I say, it used to be

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Speaker 1: dressed for success, and now it's really right for success

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Speaker 1: because people are making all sorts of judgments about you

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Speaker 1: and your level of professionalism and your level of intelligence

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Speaker 1: by looking at the way you right. Um, I know,

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Speaker 1: when I'm hiring someone, I go when I look at

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Speaker 1: their Twitter feed and their Facebook updates. I mean it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's really part of your whole presence. Now now,

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Speaker 1: since we talk a lot of out gender differences on

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Speaker 1: step mom never told you, I have to ask you

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Speaker 1: whether or not you've noticed any gender differences in how

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Speaker 1: men and women use grammar? For instance, Uh, do women

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Speaker 1: pay more attention to grammar? Or do men tend to

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Speaker 1: pay more attention to grammar? Just just curious to know

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Speaker 1: whether or not you've seen any patterns like that. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this and I haven't noticed a

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Speaker 1: difference today between men and women. But what I do

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Speaker 1: hear a lot is from people who have older relatives

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Speaker 1: who are grammar sticklers, and they're almost always women. And

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Speaker 1: I think it's because a generation or two ago, you know,

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Speaker 1: women were the teachers. You know, it was much more

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Speaker 1: a profession that was limited to two women or female

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Speaker 1: so um, you know, I think that a few generations

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Speaker 1: ago there was more emphasis on writing and speaking properly,

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Speaker 1: and that came particularly from the women because they were teachers.

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Speaker 1: But today, you know, online and looking at the correspondence

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Speaker 1: between my my male and female friends, I haven't noticed

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Speaker 1: a big difference. And I'm not aware of any studies.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't mean they don't exist, but I'm not aware of

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Speaker 1: any studies that show that you know one or the

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Speaker 1: other are more mindful of their writing. Now, one reason

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Speaker 1: that I'm so glad that I got to talk to

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Speaker 1: you today is because you can help clear up from

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Speaker 1: an expert perspective. You can help clear up a question

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Speaker 1: that a male listener wrote in UM a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, asking whether or not it is appropriate to

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Speaker 1: refer to women as girls. And I feel like this

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Speaker 1: is especially appropriate because you are the grammar girl. So

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Speaker 1: what's what's your take on this? I know they do

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Speaker 1: have different connotations woman and girl, and uh, I specifically

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Speaker 1: called myself grammar girl because girl has, you know, a fun, friendly, light,

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Speaker 1: young feel to it, and grammar can be so intimidating.

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Speaker 1: You know, I wanted a name that was not scary,

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Speaker 1: and girls aren't scary. You know that you don't think

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Speaker 1: of girls as having a lot of power or being nastier, domineering.

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Speaker 1: So I think it all depends on the context too.

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Speaker 1: Like I would say, oh, I'm I'm going out for

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Speaker 1: drinks with my girls tonight, you know, my friends. But

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Speaker 1: if you know Hillary Clinton is waiting in the hallway

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Speaker 1: to come in and meet with some foreign diplomat you know,

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Speaker 1: to say, oh, there's a girl outside to see you

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Speaker 1: would be incredibly offensive and demeaning. So, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think I think you need to think about the context

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Speaker 1: in which you're using the word. And you know, woman

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Speaker 1: definitely carries more of a sense of importance and seriousness,

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Speaker 1: so it sort of depends on what you're going for.

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Speaker 1: Is always easier to call yourself a girl than to

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Speaker 1: have someone else call you a girl? Now, I thought

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Speaker 1: it was interesting I posed this question women of women

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Speaker 1: versus all on our stuff Mom Never Told You Facebook

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Speaker 1: page and received an overwhelming response, uh, most of the

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Speaker 1: time from women saying no, it's really not that appropriate

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Speaker 1: to to refer to, especially women you don't know, as girls.

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Speaker 1: But it seemed like the overwhelming consensus was that one

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Speaker 1: in doubt just referred to us as ladies. So what

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Speaker 1: are your thoughts on the youth then of lady, especially

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Speaker 1: in casual reference to women. There may be regional differences

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Speaker 1: because to me, ladies sounds very stuffy, and it sounds,

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Speaker 1: you know, like the women who launch our ladies. It

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Speaker 1: just or you know, a guy who's approaching women in

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Speaker 1: a bar might say, hey, ladies. Uh, so that can

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Speaker 1: have its weirdness too well. Since we're on the topic

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Speaker 1: of labels, one thing I've noticed that that has irked

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Speaker 1: a few listeners is when we sometimes refer two women

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Speaker 1: as females. And obviously that's not an incorrect way to

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Speaker 1: refer to us, but some people find it, I guess

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Speaker 1: too scientific or redundant. Um So, from a grammatical perspective,

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Speaker 1: when is it okay to to use female? And when

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Speaker 1: do we need to watch out for potential sexism when

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Speaker 1: it comes to using female as a descriptor or as

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Speaker 1: a noun, right, I mean I was wondering a minute ago.

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Speaker 1: I stumbled over my words and I would think I

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Speaker 1: was flubbing women women versus female. But you know what

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Speaker 1: I tell people is you should never use female when

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't use male in in the same situation. And

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Speaker 1: for some reason, people are more likely to say, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, she was oh, oh, like there were there

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Speaker 1: were four females at the at the office. You know,

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Speaker 1: they never say there were four males at the office.

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Speaker 1: They would always say men. So if you're ever in doubt,

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Speaker 1: I just thought, you know, the easiest thing to do

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Speaker 1: is just ask yourself what I say male in this situation?

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Speaker 1: I mean typically you would say, you know, she's a woman,

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Speaker 1: he's a man. You know, those are nouns so um,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of people do find female as a

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Speaker 1: noun offensive. Um. And if you you know, going back

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Speaker 1: to science, it's used excuse me, going back to science,

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Speaker 1: it's used more. It is a clinical kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: You know, we might use that in a scientific paper.

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Speaker 1: You might say, uh, you know, four females we're seeing

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Speaker 1: on the tundra or something like that. But it has

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Speaker 1: this sense of talking about animals instead of people too,

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Speaker 1: which is I think part of the reason people find

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Speaker 1: it offensive. So it sounds like the potential sexism of

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Speaker 1: using female as an adjective lies in redundancy or unnecessary clarification.

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Speaker 1: Is that right, right? There's usually no need to point

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Speaker 1: it out. I mean, unless it's terribly unusual. You know,

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Speaker 1: when you draw attention to it, you're saying that it's

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Speaker 1: unusual for a man or a woman to be in

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Speaker 1: whatever position you're describing. So you better make sure it

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Speaker 1: really is unusual and not just you know, some stereotype. Now,

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Speaker 1: one last question that I have for you in regard

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Speaker 1: to gender and grammar is something that has come up

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Speaker 1: sometimes in feminist discourse, and that's the question of sexism,

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Speaker 1: latent sexism in English grammar, and specifically the fact that

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Speaker 1: the English language has he, she, and it, but we

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Speaker 1: don't really have a tidy neutered pronouns, so our knee

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Speaker 1: jerk is to use he or sometimes we have to

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Speaker 1: get clunky about it to avoid using he and pluralize

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Speaker 1: everything so that we can refer to they. So my

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Speaker 1: question is how to get around owned the the he,

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Speaker 1: she it issue and also avoid the clunkiness of they. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's a huge problem because English doesn't have a gender

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Speaker 1: neutral pronoun um. I call the baby it once because

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Speaker 1: I didn't know if it was a boy or a girl,

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Speaker 1: and the parents got really mad. So I do not

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Speaker 1: ever recommend using it um. But you know it used

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Speaker 1: to be again a generation or two ago, we use

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Speaker 1: he as a generic pronoun when we didn't know if

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Speaker 1: we were talking about a man or a woman. That

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Speaker 1: all the major style guides now say you shouldn't use

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Speaker 1: he in that way. It's considered sexist language now, but

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Speaker 1: it leaves us without a good option, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of people are you'll you'll definitely in speech here, people

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Speaker 1: use they in that situation you say, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: tell the next collar they want a car, so you

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Speaker 1: know that next collar that's one person and they is

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Speaker 1: usually a plural pronoun, but they're but the person speaking

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Speaker 1: is using it because they don't know if the next

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Speaker 1: collar is going to be a man or a woman.

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Speaker 1: So in that situation, you know, that particular situation is

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Speaker 1: tricky because you can't make it plural. The the the

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Speaker 1: usual solution is to make the sentence plural. So instead

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Speaker 1: of saying, oh, um, a student should think his or

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Speaker 1: her teacher when he or she succeeds, you could just

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Speaker 1: say students should thank their teacher when they succeed. So

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Speaker 1: you just make the subject plural and it solves the

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Speaker 1: whole problem. But there are these rare instances where you

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Speaker 1: can't because you have the next caller and it's only

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Speaker 1: one person. It's always only going to be one person,

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Speaker 1: and in that instance you really should use he or she.

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Speaker 1: But if I if I were a betting woman, I

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Speaker 1: would say that in twenty or thirty years, they will

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Speaker 1: be acceptable in that use because I think even people

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Speaker 1: who object to it in writing today do it in

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Speaker 1: speech without even realizing it. So it's we just had

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Speaker 1: this gaping hole in our language it and it's begging

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Speaker 1: to be filled. Now I do have kind of a

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Speaker 1: random question that I was dying to ask you, and

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Speaker 1: this specifically relates to podcast listeners. And because if you

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Speaker 1: have written in really criticizing me for using the phrase

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Speaker 1: if you will, and I don't know what it is

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Speaker 1: about this specific phrase aside from the fact that I can,

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Speaker 1: I can understand that it is superfluous and really unnecessary

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Speaker 1: and kind of a filler, sort of like what I

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Speaker 1: just used. Kind of Uh. But from your perspective as

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Speaker 1: a grammar expert, why does if you will anger stuff?

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Speaker 1: Mom never told you listeners so much? Well, it's funny

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Speaker 1: because I have never heard this complaint before, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's rare for me to hear new complaints after six years,

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Speaker 1: so I was surprised when you told me. But I

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Speaker 1: guess it's not I don't commonly hear it, you know,

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Speaker 1: on TV or around town either. So you're saying, if

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Speaker 1: you say something like here's some chocolate, if you will,

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Speaker 1: is that sort of the way you use it. I

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Speaker 1: can't think of a verbatim way that I've dropped it

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Speaker 1: in the podcast, But let's say I'm talking about gender

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Speaker 1: differences and might say that women tend to be more

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Speaker 1: body conscious. If you will, it's probably because I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's a filler, so it's sort of unnecessary, but it

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Speaker 1: does have a meaning. It sort of changes the meaning

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Speaker 1: of your sentence because it means um not exactly or

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Speaker 1: um so to speak or something like that. So it's

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Speaker 1: sort of is saying I mean this but not exactly,

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Speaker 1: or I mean this, but I'm not sure. So it

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Speaker 1: might also bother people that you know you're saying something

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Speaker 1: and then immediately undercutting it. Um. But you're right, it's

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Speaker 1: just filler, and you know, if it's. One thing I've

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Speaker 1: learned over the last few years is that people get

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Speaker 1: upset about the strangest things, and they get really upset,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of it is about, you know, language peeves.

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Speaker 1: Like whenever I meet someone, they always one of the

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Speaker 1: first things they want to do is tell me their peeves.

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Speaker 1: So everyone has them, and they're different for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people. But there are things that just just great

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Speaker 1: on people, and I guess unfortunately you've you've hit on

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Speaker 1: one of those. So Grammar Girl, one question on my

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Speaker 1: mind and probably on listeners minds as well. Are there

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Speaker 1: any verbal slip ups that you still make after these

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Speaker 1: many years of podcasting and writing about grammar. Oh yes,

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Speaker 1: let's see. Um. Well, I say um and things like that.

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Speaker 1: My podcast is scripted because people expect me to get

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Speaker 1: the language right, and I don't speak perfectly off the cup,

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Speaker 1: so off the cuff, so you know, I say ums,

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Speaker 1: and you knows and likes in every a speech. So

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Speaker 1: I was wondering if people are surprised when they meet

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Speaker 1: me after listening to the podcast they're much more careful

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Speaker 1: in the show. And um sometimes I still have to

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Speaker 1: look up lay versus lie. I know, the past tense,

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Speaker 1: but late and lane and the sort of more advanced conjugations.

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Speaker 1: I still have to look those up sometimes. Well, Grammar Girl,

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Speaker 1: First of all, thank you so much for chatting with

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Speaker 1: me today. It's been a lot of fun. And before

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Speaker 1: we sign off, I just want to know if there

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Speaker 1: are any takeaway bits of grammar wisdom that you would

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Speaker 1: like to offer our podcast listeners out there. I guess

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Speaker 1: the thing I like to tell people is just admit

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Speaker 1: what you don't know. I mean, I have volumes, you know,

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Speaker 1: thirty grammar books. There's there are so many rules. Nobody

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Speaker 1: can know them all, so don't feel bad or embarrassed

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Speaker 1: about what you don't know. Just admit what you don't

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Speaker 1: know and take the few seconds it takes to look

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Speaker 1: it up and get it right. So, you know, don't

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Speaker 1: expect yourself to be perfect, but you know, try to

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Speaker 1: get it right. Look things up when you don't know.

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Speaker 1: So thank you so much to uh to grammar Girl

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Speaker 1: for taking the time to chat with us. And um

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Speaker 1: now she she's she's finally settled the case on woman

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Speaker 1: versus girl, and I will strive my hardest to not

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Speaker 1: use if you will and thereby undercut what I'm saying

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Speaker 1: before that lessons we can all learn grammar speech and beyond.

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Speaker 1: So if you have any burning grammar questions or any

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Speaker 1: any thoughts about my little chat with grammar Girl, send

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Speaker 1: us an email if you like mom stuff at how

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Speaker 1: stuff works dot com, and be sure to use proper

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Speaker 1: proper punction because we we won't even read them otherwise,

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Speaker 1: especially if you've you just thrown around tom column. You

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Speaker 1: know that hurts my feelings. And in the meantime, we

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Speaker 1: do have an email to share about our podcast on

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Speaker 1: breakup songs. Yeah, this is from Nori. She says that

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Speaker 1: this is yeah. In response to breakup songs, she had

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Speaker 1: some thoughts on the revelation that women and healthy relationships

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00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 1: listened to sad, down with love type songs. I am

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Speaker 1: a classically trained singer who also does jazz, bluegrass and

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Speaker 1: anything I feel like. Really, I've always loved singing sad

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Speaker 1: songs more than happy ones, and in classical music, there

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00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 1: is no shortage of suicidal depressed characters, either an opera

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Speaker 1: or art song. It is so much easier to connect

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Speaker 1: with someone who is completely tortured by love or rejection,

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Speaker 1: and the cathartic release is fantastic. The yearning of the music,

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Speaker 1: the drawing in of your audience to your sadness, can

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Speaker 1: be so raw and real. Well, it's way better than

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Speaker 1: tripping through the daisies. Of course, I did go through

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Speaker 1: a life shattering breakup when I was studying from my

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Speaker 1: bachelor's degree, and that led me to seek out some

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Speaker 1: of this fantastically sad and beautiful music. But now that

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Speaker 1: I'm happily married, my husband and I both still love

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Speaker 1: singing the blues. In fact, Adele's Someone Like You is

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Speaker 1: a regular our appearance on our playlists thanks, Thank you

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Speaker 1: to everyone for sharing your stories with us. Our email

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Speaker 1: address again is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: You can also head over to the Facebook page, leave

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00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: us a likes, send us a comment, and you can

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00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. You can

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00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 1: also follow grammar Girl if you like she is at

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00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 1: grammar Girl on Twitter as well. You can check out

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Speaker 1: our blog during the week, It's stuff Mom Never Told

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Speaker 1: You at how stuff works dot com. This podcast is

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00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 1: brought to you by Audible dot com, the Internet's leading

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Speaker 1: provider of audio books, with more than one hundred thousand

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