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Speaker 1: Hey, listeners, I'm popping up with a wee warning before

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Speaker 1: we get into the podcast. This episode of The Missing

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Speaker 1: Sister contained strong language and themes of domestic violence and

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Speaker 1: child abuse that some listeners may find distressing. Please listen

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Speaker 1: with care for the victims and for yourself.

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Speaker 2: All hell broke loose when I discovered what EUI see

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Speaker 2: really was when I withdrew my membership, everything just won Haywire.

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Speaker 1: This was the moment when a woman who will call

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Speaker 1: Naomi told her husband that she was going to leave

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Speaker 1: Israel United in Christ.

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Speaker 3: It got physical because of me explaining to him, Hey,

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Speaker 3: I found the truth here, the actual truth here, and

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Speaker 3: I'm on my way out, and he just lost it.

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Speaker 1: Naomi was in deep and like many women who find

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Speaker 1: themselves in these situations, she couldn't see a clear way out.

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Speaker 1: We've spent the past five months discovering who IUIC really

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Speaker 1: are in relation to the death of a young woman

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Speaker 1: named Joy Morgan. Joy was murdered by a member of

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Speaker 1: IUIC London six years ago, and now it feels like

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Speaker 1: we're starting to get close to the truth. Many years ago,

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Speaker 1: when I was first reporting on AUC, an ex member

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Speaker 1: told me that Joy was not the only one. By that,

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Speaker 1: they didn't necessarily mean that there had been more women

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Speaker 1: who'd been killed, but they meant that there were other

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Speaker 1: women who'd suffered, who were still suffering within the church.

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Speaker 1: Now we've begun to find them and finally hear stories.

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Speaker 1: More so than anyone that we've spoken to before. These

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Speaker 1: women helped to explain how aUI See lures people in

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Speaker 1: and makes it hard for them to get out, and

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Speaker 1: just how serious and violent things can become when they

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Speaker 1: try to leave. I wanted to ask, I guess one

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Speaker 1: last sort of sense of question around this, which is

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Speaker 1: do you hold au I See responsible for what happened

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Speaker 1: during that period of time.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there's nothing that I would blame other than

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Speaker 3: the group.

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Speaker 1: From Free Turn. I'm Charlie Brinkerstcuff and this is the

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Speaker 1: Missing Sister Episode four to Sisterhood.

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Speaker 4: Half of my life I grew up in Los Angeles,

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Speaker 4: and half of my life I grew up in Glendale, California,

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Speaker 4: So that was my childhood.

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Speaker 1: Meet Genably, a super smart black woman with life, brown eyes,

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Speaker 1: dark hair, and a big smile. She's speaking to me

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Speaker 1: of a video call from the US.

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Speaker 4: We were all over the place Honestly, my mom was

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Speaker 4: a single mom, so she just wanted the best for us.

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Speaker 1: After Glendale, Gina and her family moved to Fresno, California,

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Speaker 1: which is where she found out about AUC. She joined

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Speaker 1: the group back in twenty sixteen, when she was twenty six,

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Speaker 1: and she's reflected a lot on why she and other

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Speaker 1: women are motivated to join the church to become part

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Speaker 1: of the sisterhood.

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Speaker 4: The reason I think a lot of women join IUIC

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Speaker 4: is to follow a man.

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Speaker 1: It's an uncomfortable thought, but she's not the first person

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Speaker 1: I've heard suggest this. And what's more, Gina says IUS

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Speaker 1: has a whole marriage propaganda.

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Speaker 4: They pushed marriage so tough on women, and that's like

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Speaker 4: the prize is like, if you do what we say,

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Speaker 4: you can get a man. You can get a husband,

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Speaker 4: all right, And then it's like you can get a

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Speaker 4: black husband on top with that. And then also I

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Speaker 4: think it's friendship. I think it's family.

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Speaker 1: Friendship, family belonging. This is something we've heard before from

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Speaker 1: other ex members. For Gina specifically, though, there was another reason.

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Speaker 1: She was at a weak spot in her life. She

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Speaker 1: was living alone looking for family and community, and as

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Speaker 1: we've heard from other ex members. Something quite specifically terrible

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Speaker 1: had happened to her.

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Speaker 4: I had just been involved in on the job car

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Speaker 4: accident transporting adults with disabilities from their homes to this

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Speaker 4: adult daycare.

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Speaker 1: At the time, Gina was working as a nursing assistant,

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Speaker 1: and long story short, she says, the car accident wasn't

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Speaker 1: her fault. She got hit from behind. The accident left

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Speaker 1: her badly injured.

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Speaker 4: I had whiplash and I always prescribed medication, but it

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Speaker 4: was mainly my bag. I had never been injured before,

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Speaker 4: and so after that situation, even to this day, is like,

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Speaker 4: I still have issues with my back.

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Speaker 1: And while she was off work recovering, Gina says she

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Speaker 1: was fired. Her boss just so happened to be a

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Speaker 1: white woman.

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Speaker 4: She told me that I wouldn't get a penny from her.

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Speaker 4: She started saying all this stuff, and I'm like, oh

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Speaker 4: my goodness, Like this is evil.

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Speaker 1: She began watching YouTube videos of IUIC, just like Join

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Speaker 1: Morgan did. She loved that they weren't afraid to speak

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Speaker 1: out about injustice, about racism. She'd never heard that from

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Speaker 1: another religious institution before in her life, and she could

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Speaker 1: relate to what they were.

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Speaker 4: Saying they were talking about black people and how we

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Speaker 4: were lied to, and that just really opened the door

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Speaker 4: for me to look into things.

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Speaker 1: Just for context. During this time, a string of police

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Speaker 1: brutality cases had dominated the international headlines. Eric Garner, Michael Brown,

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Speaker 1: Tamir Rice, Freddie Gray, Sandra Blande, and Filander Castile were

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Speaker 1: all Black Americans who are killed at the hands of

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Speaker 1: the police or died whilst being in police custody.

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Speaker 4: It was just a very heightened situation, and I just

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Speaker 4: gravitated towards them because they were speaking what I felt

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Speaker 4: was honesty and was bold and was their truth.

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Speaker 1: And most importantly, they had an answer as to why

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Speaker 1: these innocent black people were dying while some of them

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Speaker 1: were being killed.

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Speaker 4: They said that the white man is the devil that

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Speaker 4: the Bible speaks of. That's why this is going on.

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Speaker 4: You see these black men who appear to be leaders.

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Speaker 4: They have the Bible. They know the Bible like the

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Speaker 4: back of their hand. It's impressive, and you feel like

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Speaker 4: they have all this wisdom and knowledge, and they could

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Speaker 4: argue or debate against other pastors, and they could debate

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Speaker 4: against white people and you feel like, okay, so they

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Speaker 4: know their stuff.

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Speaker 1: One day she decided to officially the church. They were

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Speaker 1: congregating at a park. It was the women she spoke

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Speaker 1: to first.

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Speaker 4: A lot of the women were reserved. They put their

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Speaker 4: hand on their chest and they bowed, and he said, Shalom,

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Speaker 4: I just want people to know that you would not

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Speaker 4: think anything differently. These were sweet people, These were mothers,

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Speaker 4: These women had children. They thought they were doing the

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Speaker 4: right thing.

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Speaker 1: But quickly, as with all the other ex members we've

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Speaker 1: spoken to, things began to shift. Even on her first

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Speaker 1: day officially congregating with IUIC, she took note of something

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Speaker 1: that made her uncomfortable. A woman had brought along her

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Speaker 1: son to church, and unfortunately, the son had flirted with

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Speaker 1: the leader's daughter. The leader was furious.

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Speaker 4: He went in on her like he was calling her

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Speaker 4: insulting names, like saying her son is like a savage,

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Speaker 4: like yet old bum, and that her son never be

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Speaker 4: with his daughter ever. Those little moments, I took a

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Speaker 4: screenshot with my memory and put it in the back

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Speaker 4: of my head, and I said, okay, I'll save that

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Speaker 4: for later.

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Speaker 1: She came to understand that although initially within us it

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Speaker 1: might feel as though men are helping women teaching them,

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Speaker 1: really protecting them. There was a harsh disconnect. Under the

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Speaker 1: guise of gentlemanly behavior was a seam of strict control.

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Speaker 1: Women should be modest, Women should cook, clean and look

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Speaker 1: after the children. Women should not speak out of turn.

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Speaker 1: Women should mostly be silent.

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Speaker 4: They have this thing in the group where they have

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Speaker 4: like a whole series on black women and like the

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Speaker 4: big mouth Black woman. It's almost as if they programmed

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Speaker 4: you to think that you came in there out of control.

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Speaker 4: You had a big mouth, you were ghett all, you

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Speaker 4: were loud, you wore weave, and they tamed you, like

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Speaker 4: they taught you how to be civilized. So they teach

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Speaker 4: you like to cover your head and to wear skirts

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Speaker 4: because we have to dress more modest, and black women

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Speaker 4: these days are not dressing modest. It just got very oppressive.

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Speaker 4: It got to the point where if I showed an ankle,

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Speaker 4: I was stood up and told like, okay, that is

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Speaker 4: against the Bible, Like you're not being modest, you're being lustful,

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Speaker 4: and you're attracting men to you.

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Speaker 1: They began to pick on her. Her skirts needed to

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Speaker 1: be longer and looser, her hair needed to be completely covered,

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Speaker 1: She had to have fringes on all of her clothing,

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Speaker 1: she shouldn't post on social media. She felt stifled, as

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Speaker 1: though she couldn't express herself. Like every other ex member

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Speaker 1: we've spoken to, Gina has bad memories of being stood

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Speaker 1: up in front of the congregation, ritually humiliated and public

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Speaker 1: in front of her newfound family in the absence of

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Speaker 1: support from the rest of the group. She became friends

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Speaker 1: with the women at church, who was also a bit

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Speaker 1: of an outcast.

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Speaker 4: She was considered a Jezebel because she would question the leadership.

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Speaker 4: She would ask questions that other people wouldn't ask, and

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Speaker 4: they didn't like her pretty much. They didn't like her,

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Speaker 4: and so they were mad because I was like her friend.

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Speaker 4: The next time we meet, they stand me up because

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Speaker 4: they said, whatever she did, it's on me.

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Speaker 1: To Gina started to internalize the abuse.

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Speaker 4: I cried and I blame myself. I said, no, you know,

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Speaker 4: they're right, I need to do better. And it became

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Speaker 4: a pattern of me just eating their verbal abuse, the aggressiveness,

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Speaker 4: the callousness of how they spoke to you. You would

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Speaker 4: think that you did something that was against the law.

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Speaker 4: Did people comfort you, Oh no, you will be chastised

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Speaker 4: if you comfort anyone who's being chastised by the leadership.

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Speaker 4: You could feel bad, you just can't express it or

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Speaker 4: show it.

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Speaker 1: She says. She was stood up for all kinds of reasons,

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Speaker 1: and even though she was a key member of the

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Speaker 1: close knit community, Gina learned not to tell other church

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Speaker 1: members anything about her life that could be used as

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Speaker 1: ammunition against her. At her church, just like other Auic camps,

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Speaker 1: women were under particular stress and scrutiny. They were more

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Speaker 1: likely to be stood up than the men.

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Speaker 4: I would say it was more women absolutely getting chastise

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Speaker 4: the men, because to them, we are the reason that

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Speaker 4: the whole world is in sin. They have to be

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Speaker 4: extra hard on us because of Eve and all this,

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Speaker 4: And they will read those scriptures about Eve disobeying God,

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Speaker 4: and it wasn't the man, it was the wife. So

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Speaker 4: they have to be extra hard on us because of that.

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Speaker 1: And perhaps unsurprisingly, the very worst thing that she witnessed

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Speaker 1: within OUs happened after a woman was stood up. This

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Speaker 1: woman was told to discipline her child after he'd be naughty,

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Speaker 1: so she began to hit him. In the US, the

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Speaker 1: spanking of children is legal in all fifty states. But

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Speaker 1: whether or not you agree with that, this quickly became extreme.

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Speaker 1: The leaders told the woman that she wasn't hitting her

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Speaker 1: child hard enough.

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Speaker 4: They needed to hear it in order for it to

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Speaker 4: be a real beating, a real whooping. They stopped the

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Speaker 4: class and they made sure that she beat him in

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Speaker 4: the bathroom, and they told her we need to hear it.

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Speaker 4: So all you could hear was screams from the child

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Speaker 4: in the bathroom while they paused and listened and nodded

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Speaker 4: their heads like this was the right thing to do.

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Speaker 4: And my heart, my heart broke.

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Speaker 1: Oh, there must have been an awful, awful thing over here,

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Speaker 1: and to witness. I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 4: It was horrible because no matter how much they try

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Speaker 4: to say that was right, that was wrong. And I

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Speaker 4: never forgot that.

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Speaker 1: When Gina was finally kicked out of the church for

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Speaker 1: taking a job, which meant that sometimes she would have

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Speaker 1: to work on Saturday's, the day a U S congregates,

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Speaker 1: she came to believe that she'd been and what felt

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Speaker 1: like a cult to her. It felt as though it

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Speaker 1: was a misugi anistic cult where they dealt in public

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Speaker 1: humiliation and made women feel like they were the problem

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Speaker 1: for trying to speak up, for trying to retain some

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Speaker 1: form of independence.

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Speaker 4: I didn't even know that cults existed as far as

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Speaker 4: in the Black arena. I thought we wouldn't be getting

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Speaker 4: sucked up into this. We've been through so much we

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Speaker 4: would see the signs from a mile away. I started

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Speaker 4: looking into cults and everything that I went through, public humiliation,

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Speaker 4: the hatred that they have for white people and women.

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Speaker 4: It all just came together and I'm like, oh, wow,

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Speaker 4: you were in a cult. You were in a destructive cult.

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Speaker 1: So with everything that we've learned about a UIC from

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Speaker 1: ex members, we found ourselves with a question, is a

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Speaker 1: UIC dangerous? Before you started listening to this podcast, if

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Speaker 1: you had come across the Hebrew as we're like, it

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Speaker 1: was probably through their street preaching. The stereotypes about the

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Speaker 1: community are that they are loud, aggressive, homophobic, transphobic, and sexist.

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Speaker 1: That they hate Jewish people and white people. They believe

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Speaker 1: that African American people and some other black, Native American

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Speaker 1: and Hispanic groups are racially superior. You might have even

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Speaker 1: heard about the incident in twenty sixteen when a former

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Speaker 1: IUIC member shot a transwoman, Crystal Raquel Cash, in the

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Speaker 1: face after yelling homophobic slurs. You might have heard of

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Speaker 1: Joy Morgan's murder in twenty eighteen, or the twenty nineteen

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Speaker 1: anti Semitic shooting at a Kosher grocery store in the

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Speaker 1: US when two Hebrew Israelites who were not to be

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Speaker 1: clear part of a UIC murdered three people and planted

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Speaker 1: a pipe bomb that could have killed hundreds more, or

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Speaker 1: here in the UK, the twenty twenty two murder of

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Speaker 1: a three year old boy by his mother, who was

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Speaker 1: a recent adoptee of Hebrew Israelite ideologies. Again, she was

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Speaker 1: not part of AUIC. Stuffed altogether and especially alongside the

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Speaker 1: ex member testimonies we've gathered, this doesn't look good. But

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Speaker 1: because this podcast is all about nuance, I want to

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Speaker 1: complicate the picture. While there's arguably good reason as to

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Speaker 1: why IUIC has been labeled a hate group, that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that violence is necessarily inherent to the organization, its members,

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Speaker 1: or any other Hebrew Israelite group.

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Speaker 5: There are a whole bunch of strands of Hebrew Israelite

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Speaker 5: thinking that have nothing to do with demonizing Jews, or

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Speaker 5: white people or LGBTQ people.

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Speaker 1: Heidi Birik, who we heard from an episode two is

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Speaker 1: the founder of the Global Project Against Hate and Extremism

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Speaker 1: and a former director at the Southern Poverty Law Center

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Speaker 1: or SPLC. It's an organization which tracks hate and anti

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Speaker 1: government movement in the United States. iUSC is on the

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Speaker 1: SPLC's list of hate groups, and Heidi spent a long

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Speaker 1: time looking into their ideologies. This is her take.

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Speaker 5: The basic ideas, does the organization demean an entire group

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Speaker 5: of people based on their inherent characteristics? And if they

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Speaker 5: do that, and this is an ideological frame, right, this

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Speaker 5: isn't about violence, this is about ideology, and if they

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Speaker 5: do that, they make the list. So, in other words,

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Speaker 5: does a group say all immigrants are criminals or stupid,

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Speaker 5: all black people are violent, all Jews are greedy? Things

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Speaker 5: along those lines. If you go down that route, then

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Speaker 5: you're going to end up on the list somewhere.

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Speaker 1: But she says this definition doesn't give a rounded picture

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Speaker 1: of the Israelites, and she takes pains to make it

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Speaker 1: clear where the wider Hebrew Israelite movement comes from.

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Speaker 5: These movements grew up in as early as the eighteen

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Speaker 5: eighties in reaction to the incredible amount of white supremacy

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Speaker 5: in the United States. There's a history here, and there's

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Speaker 5: a reason for this, and there are legitimate, I mean

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Speaker 5: like as legitimate as they get reasons to be angry.

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Speaker 5: Black people have suffered so enormously at the hands of

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Speaker 5: white people it's essentially indescribable, and so that context needs

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Speaker 5: to be there, whereas white people who are running around

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Speaker 5: hating Black people, Jews and others don't have anything like

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Speaker 5: that to excuse their behavior and the long history of

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Speaker 5: racism that's the bigger problem.

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Speaker 1: There are other people in the academic space who take

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Speaker 1: an even stronger view who wouldn't class Hebrew is like

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Speaker 1: organizations like IUIC as hate groups at all.

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Speaker 6: I U see is not simply a negative organization. It's

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Speaker 6: doing things that are positive for thousands of people.

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Speaker 1: Jacob Dorman is an associate professor of history and core

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Speaker 1: Humanities who has written extensively about IUC From an academic perspective.

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Speaker 6: It's giving a sense of pride and self respect. It's

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Speaker 6: reorienting the Bible in a way that is intellectually interesting

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Speaker 6: and compelling to a lot of people. It's serving mostly

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Speaker 6: poor and working class men. It is doing objectively. It

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Speaker 6: is doing things that are good and positive. It has

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Speaker 6: some teachings that are hateful, But to just label a

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Speaker 6: group a hate group doesn't do justice to a more

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Speaker 6: capacious view of what they're all about.

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Speaker 1: So I came into this obviously from quite an extreme

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Speaker 1: point of view, and that it was through the murder

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Speaker 1: of a young woman. So I guess I've been clouded

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Speaker 1: by that reality from the get go. I guess my

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Speaker 1: personal fear around a group that au I see is

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Speaker 1: that they're praying on vulnerable young black people and sort

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Speaker 1: of bringing them into a space where they're not always

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Speaker 1: going to be protected and isolated from their friends and family.

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Speaker 6: I'm not trying to discredit the people that do identify

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Speaker 6: negative behaviors. I'm just saying that there's negative behaviors and

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Speaker 6: teachings that can be called hateful in almost every religion.

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Speaker 6: It's worth having an orientation towards saying how do I

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Speaker 6: use empathy to understand this group.

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Speaker 1: Andrea Brookskey has a similar attitude. She's an associate professor

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Speaker 1: of African and African American Studies at Klaflin University and

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Speaker 1: a scholar in the area of Afro Jewish studies.

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Speaker 7: It's an unfortunate loop. Groups like the Iuicee that was

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Speaker 7: affiliated with that tradition. I usually labeled a hate group

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Speaker 7: by either the Anti Defamation League or the Southern Poverty

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Speaker 7: Law Center because they say things that white people don't

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Speaker 7: like to hear.

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Speaker 1: Andrea is also a former member of the Israelite School

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Speaker 1: of Practical Knowledge, a Hebrew Israelite church. Of anyone that

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Speaker 1: I've met in the academic setting, she knows the most

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Speaker 1: about what it really means to be part of an

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Speaker 1: Israelite group, their belief systems, and the histories of the movement.

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Speaker 7: It's not whether it's true or not. They say things

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Speaker 7: about white people that don't sound nice, because that's the

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Speaker 7: history of race in America. They're often also accused of

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Speaker 7: being anti submitic, which again I think is more political

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Speaker 7: than the actual case. It's really no different than what

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Speaker 7: religions do all the time to each other. They make

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Speaker 7: theological arcs to say, if you're not on this side

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Speaker 7: of the fence with us, you're lost, you're not real,

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Speaker 7: you're fake.

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Speaker 1: Do you think it's fair to say then that there

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Speaker 1: is a hypocrisy in terms of understanding them through the

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Speaker 1: lens of like a tradition of religion, like as in

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of, like, for example, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that are often critiqued on is their treatment

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Speaker 1: of the LGBT community. But we know, for example, that

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Speaker 1: a lot of Christian communities are also viciously ANTILGBT. So

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Speaker 1: is it that, like, we can acknowledge that there are

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Speaker 1: things within the Hebrewsalites that we find all that I

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Speaker 1: might as an individual find unpalatable. But if I'm going

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Speaker 1: to criticize them by calling them a hate group, then

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Speaker 1: I have to also call all these other churches and

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Speaker 1: so on and so forth hate groups as well. Would

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Speaker 1: that be fair?

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Speaker 7: Yes, that's exactly the case. I have no problem criticizing

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Speaker 7: idiot the belief as like, you know, as an academic,

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Speaker 7: or as from a secular perspect like I'm trans I'm like,

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Speaker 7: I'm not going to be able to belong to a

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Speaker 7: group like that. But in the same way, I'm not

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Speaker 7: going to be able to belong to some other religious

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Speaker 7: groups that aren't considered hate groups.

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Speaker 1: In short, Andrea has no problem criticizing Hebrew Israelite religious

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Speaker 1: doctrines if she feels there harmful, But she believes that

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Speaker 1: the blanket designation of them as hate groups or as

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Speaker 1: anti Semites can be used as a form of censorship,

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Speaker 1: especially when hypocritically. These same ideas and beliefs are very

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Speaker 1: prevalent in so called respectable religious denominations.

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Speaker 7: We can definitely challenge them on these areas because, and

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Speaker 7: again they're not the only ones. It's often the gender

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Speaker 7: and the LGBT issues are raised up as a way

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Speaker 7: to de legitimize because of the racial component, but that

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Speaker 7: doesn't mean the LGBT issues and the treatment of women

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Speaker 7: aren't real issues.

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Speaker 1: So generally speaking, our academics believe that there are plenty

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Speaker 1: of misconceptions around the Hebrew Israelites and that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who argue against them do so in bad

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Speaker 1: faith because of their own racist beliefs and prejudices against

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Speaker 1: the Black community. But despite their interest in the subject,

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Speaker 1: these academics haven't spent any actual time with UIC, and

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Speaker 1: I'm still working through how to categorize them in my head.

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Speaker 1: I need to understand how dangerous they really are in

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Speaker 1: the flesh, and I have a plan brewing, one that's

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Speaker 1: going to take me up close and personal with UIC.

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Speaker 1: This is where vocab malone comes in. He helps me

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Speaker 1: link all of my research around the group. Back to

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Speaker 1: Joy Morgan's story, her life and her death as an

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Speaker 1: atheist or technically an agnostic. I wasn't ever expecting to

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Speaker 1: get so deep in the weeds of theology, but Vocab

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Speaker 1: is what is described as a Christian apologist. Essentially, this

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Speaker 1: means that he explains and defends his Christian faith against

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Speaker 1: people who doubt it, and he's developed a special interest

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Speaker 1: in Hebrew Israelites, who he spends his time challenging to

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Speaker 1: theological debates which he posts online.

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Speaker 8: This is a cult if you have a white father,

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Speaker 8: they say, he's going to be enslaved.

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Speaker 7: All ay.

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Speaker 1: He's based in Phoenix, Arizona, and most of his videos

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Speaker 1: are filmed there, and so when one day, deep in

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Speaker 1: the midst of researching a U S, I click onto

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Speaker 1: his profile, I'm shocked to see that he's actually in

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Speaker 1: London and he's gone up to a Hebrew Israelite group

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Speaker 1: preaching on the street and essentially challenged them to a debate.

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Speaker 6: Back to the terminal man, she's on a plane and

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Speaker 6: go home, girl.

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Speaker 7: Don't want to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: They were, to put it lightly, not interested in talking

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Speaker 1: with him. Vocap is I think it's fair to say

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Speaker 1: persona non grata amongst the Israelite community, but he's willing

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Speaker 1: to have difficult conversations, and while he's in the UK,

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Speaker 1: he agrees to sit down with me to talk about

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Speaker 1: his process, his perception of the Israelites, and what happened

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Speaker 1: to joy.

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Speaker 8: The British Hebrews life are more polite. I am not

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Speaker 8: kidding you.

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Speaker 1: Vocab is a round faced man with a thick dark

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Speaker 1: beard and comes dressed all in black as if ready

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Speaker 1: for action. He often gets mistaken for Hispanic Mexican, though

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Speaker 1: his family are Sicilian and German. Funnily enough, he didn't

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Speaker 1: mind speaking to the British Israelites, even though they called

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Speaker 1: the police on him and shouted him down.

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Speaker 8: They were yelling really loudly, which that standard behavior, especially

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Speaker 8: when they're challenged by anybody. But one of the residents

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Speaker 8: nearby came out and I was like, excuse me, you

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Speaker 8: know what's going on here, and they were all polite

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Speaker 8: to her. In the US were like, f you go

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Speaker 8: back in your ef and house.

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Speaker 1: Despite them calling the police, they never actually arrived, and

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Speaker 1: he says his worst ever interaction with an Israelite camp

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Speaker 1: remains with Auic in the.

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Speaker 8: US, even if other religious groups are destructive, it doesn't

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Speaker 8: mean that AUIC is not destructive. And if person doesn't

438
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 8: want to use a word cult, that's fine because this

439
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 8: doesn't win or lose the argument. The question is is

440
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 8: this a healthy group? And then if we're going to

441
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 8: say it's unhealthy, I think we should share our reasons why. Sadly,

442
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,199
Speaker 8: Joy Morgan is sort of the epitome of the unhealthiness

443
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 8: and especially in how they dealt with it.

444
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: He points specifically to a four hour long video released

445
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: by AUC in March twenty nineteen, about a month after

446
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: Joy was reported missing and still available on their YouTube channel,

447
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: which is titled a Kid You Not Addressing the liars

448
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: about Joy Morgan. The word liars is written in capital letters.

449
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:55,679
Speaker 1: This is vocab's take on it.

450
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 8: The whole thing was not to apologize. The whole thing

451
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 8: was not to show impat or sympathy for the family.

452
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 8: The whole thing was to protect their image. IOIC is

453
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:08,479
Speaker 8: not about the members. It's just about IUIC, meaning their

454
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 8: primary goal is not the health, well being, safety concern

455
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 8: of people inside their own organization or those outside who

456
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 8: were supposed to be part of who they're reaching. It's

457
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 8: about the propagation of their own individual organization, So it's

458
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 8: all about image protection.

459
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: But despite his contentious interactions with them, his bad opinion

460
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: of them, he doesn't go so far as to believe,

461
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: like some of the ex members, that IUIC might have

462
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: suspected something bad had happened to Joy in that six

463
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: week period where she stopped attending church and hadn't been

464
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:43,719
Speaker 1: reported missing.

465
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 8: Oh, I've never thought that IUIC knew something bad happened

466
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 8: to Enjoy Morgan. I never thought that they would have

467
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 8: wanted something bad to happen to Enjoy Morgan or had

468
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 8: any inkling that something bad happened to Joy Morgan. But

469
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 8: let me give you some ways to think about this.

470
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 8: If she's with her actual family and was missing for

471
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 8: two weeks, three weeks for what do you think your

472
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 8: actual family would have done. They would immediately taken care

473
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 8: of it.

474
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: And he points out her family did take care of it.

475
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: It was ultimately Joy's mother, Carol, who called the police

476
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: who reported her missing. And there's one more thing about

477
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: AUC that you should know.

478
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 8: They go out of their way to insult black women.

479
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: He points out one particular thing he's seen a phrase

480
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: repeated a T shirt sold by a member of AUC,

481
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: and what did it say on it don't listen to

482
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: black women.

483
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 8: They even pound the table of the podcast table and

484
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 8: will do it in a chant format when they think

485
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:46,719
Speaker 8: the moment calls for it.

486
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: Vocab believes that AUC doesn't respect or appreciate black women,

487
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: even if they say they do, and on publicly available videos,

488
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: it's true. They're cruel black women. They say they should

489
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: be silent, they say they should obey their husbands. But

490
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: if you want to understand how this contempt for black

491
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: women might play out behind closed doors, how deep it

492
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: could run, we found someone who's willing to speak on

493
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: the record. This is what happened to one ex member.

494
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: You heard from her at the beginning of the episode.

495
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: We're calling her Naomi. I have to be careful here

496
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: to not reveal too much about who Naomi really is,

497
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: so I'm going to hold back a few identifying details.

498
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: Victims must be protected, and Naomi still has fears around

499
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: being brought back into view of AUC of what.

500
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 4: They might do.

501
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: Like Gina, Naomi also joined IUIC in the US. She

502
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: had dreams of being a lawyer, and in twenty fifteen

503
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: she was on the pathway to achievement.

504
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 3: So I got into my dream college right and it

505
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 3: was a party school. I was just on cloud nine

506
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 3: and I was just you know, fulfilling my goals in life.

507
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: But her life was about to be turned upside down.

508
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: She was in a long distance relationship with a man

509
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: that she'd met at a popular club night.

510
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 3: One day, we were just in my room and he

511
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 3: just whipped out his phone and pulled up this YouTube

512
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 3: video of IUIC preaching on the side of the street.

513
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: Naomi says that in the video, the preachers were providing

514
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: an answer for the black community on why they weren't

515
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: at the top of the socioeconomic pyramid. She says they

516
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: were providing the answer as to how to get into

517
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: heaven and how to uplift this curse that we as

518
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: black people have upon us. Naomi was unconvinced by them.

519
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: She was skeptical, but her partner had been going through

520
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: a rough time. One of his parents had recently died

521
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: and he was looking for anne answers as to how

522
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: to live his life. Naomi says that he had a

523
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: difficult family background.

524
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 3: His father passed away during this period of us, you know,

525
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 3: meeting and me going away to college. That point in

526
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 3: his life. He came across this group on the Internet,

527
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 3: and I noticed he had gotten really quiet.

528
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: Naomi was strong willed, she had a good family background.

529
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: She wasn't someone suffering with any particular trauma she can

530
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: put her finger on. Unlike other ex members we've spoken to,

531
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: what made Naomi vulnerable was simply a lack of self confidence.

532
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 3: It was just the suffering of the disease to please people.

533
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 3: I had a people pleasing complex. I didn't have the

534
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 3: proper tools and knowledge of what a boundary even was,

535
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 3: and how to set that boundary, how to enforce it,

536
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: no idea.

537
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: Things started to go wrong for Naomi. She got kicked

538
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: out of college her university. She was back home, and

539
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: their long distance relationship shifted into close quarters. Her partner

540
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: persuaded her to start attending IUC gatherings every week. We

541
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: know that IUC has strict rules around how men and

542
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: women are allowed to relate to each other, that they

543
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: aren't allowed to be alone together if they're not married officially.

544
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: Naomi and her partner had to be chaperoned everywhere they

545
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: were still proving themselves. The term IOC uses for when

546
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: a couple is essentially dating, prove yourself to each other,

547
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: maybe prove yourself to the church. Definitely. Soon enough, Naomi

548
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: found herself taking a big step, a huge step marriage.

549
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: It was nothing like how she'd imagined.

550
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 3: It was pretty embarrassing. So it's not a traditional proposal, right,

551
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 3: thing is traditional in this group.

552
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: The proposal took place outside a liquor store. But more importantly,

553
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 1: Naomi was only twenty years old. She was so young

554
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: she was vulnerable in this moment. Any youthful dream she

555
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 1: had of a traditional, large wedding with her future spouse

556
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: asking for her hand in marriage and seeking her father's

557
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: blessing were out of the window. So there's no ring,

558
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: there's no sor traditional getting down on one knee. No,

559
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: her family wasn't happy in her words, They already knew

560
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 1: she was in a cult. It wasn't what they'd envisaged

561
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: for her. He wasn't the type of man that they'd

562
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:48,240
Speaker 1: envisaged for her. But she was an adult. They couldn't

563
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: stop her, and she had isolated herself from her friends

564
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: and family. I U I see was telling her that

565
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: they were devils, and she had started to believe it.

566
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: Her family and a few friends were allowed to attend

567
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: the wedding, but not without controversy within the church.

568
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 3: My mom's comment about the day of my wedding, it

569
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 3: was like my eyes just were glazed over. I was

570
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 3: in a trance.

571
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: But then they signed the paperwork.

572
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 3: Afterwards, you know, it was just like a badge of honor,

573
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: like oh, I'm the wife. Now we're married, and it

574
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 3: was just something that we were supposed to do.

575
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 1: But Naomi wasn't happy. She knew that the church wasn't

576
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: providing her with the fulfillment she needed in her life,

577
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: and day to day her marriage wasn't a happy one either.

578
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: She struggles to talk about it in depth. She's blocked

579
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff out, perhaps because of the trauma.

580
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: When I asked her about her ex husband, she skirts

581
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: over the details. But what she does tell me is

582
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 1: that by twenty eighteen, two years after she joined IUIC,

583
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: she was back in school and spending a lot of

584
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: time the library taking books out to read, and it

585
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: was there that she had an awakening. She still remembers

586
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: the exact date. On January sixth, twenty eighteen, she came

587
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: across a book that was about cults and it changed

588
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: her life.

589
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 3: I started reading it and it was mapping out exactly

590
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 3: what a cult was, who would be a perfect candidate.

591
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 3: And I just started educating myself and this was my

592
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 3: exit out.

593
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: But not straight away. First she had to confront her

594
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: new husband to try and make him understand that she

595
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: was changing, had already changed, that she didn't want to

596
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: be part of us anymore. But he wasn't happy.

597
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 3: He literally rips up the book like page by page,

598
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 3: and as he's doing it, he's like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,

599
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 3: I can't do that. I'll give you another book, but

600
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 3: I just have to do like I have to do this.

601
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 3: And I was like, okay, let me rip up the

602
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 3: Bible then, since you want to freaking like go all

603
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 3: out and disrespect my book that I'm presenting to you.

604
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: Things only escalated from there. Naomi alleges that her husband

605
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: physically attacked her on multiple occasions. This is a hard

606
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: heartbreaking listen.

607
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 3: When there was blood involved. I was like, I'm done.

608
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: Take them minute, take them inute.

609
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 3: I thought I could talk about this about it bringing

610
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 3: up any sort of emotion. Yeah, but but I you know,

611
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 3: just I didn't grow up like witnessing physical violence between

612
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 3: the two partners, So I already knew. I was taught

613
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 3: to leave immediately when that.

614
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: When that occurs, we take a pause in recording here

615
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: to give Naomi time to collect her thoughts and to

616
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: reassure her that she doesn't have to talk about anything

617
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: she doesn't feel comfortable sharing. We want to know these details,

618
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: of course we do, because they tell us things about

619
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: us that we didn't know before, but not at the

620
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: expense of Naomi. She wasn't expecting to feel so emotional.

621
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,439
Speaker 1: But it's a hugely emotional thing reflecting on a time

622
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: where you were so badly abused that someone made you bleed.

623
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: She does, however, feel strong enough to go on. She says,

624
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: if she's honest with herself, at that point in her relationship,

625
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: she felt as though her life was in danger. She

626
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 1: felt like his anger was unpredictable. She started hiding anything

627
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: in the house that could be used as a weapon.

628
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 1: But she also believes there was another motive behind his abuse.

629
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: He was doing it because he wanted to separate from

630
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 1: her and within the church. There had to be a

631
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,439
Speaker 1: good reason for you to do so. Him abusing her,

632
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 1: as counterintuitive as it might sound, would provide.

633
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 3: That I came home one day with like pants and

634
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 3: just like attacked me. That was just the biggest no

635
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 3: no for women, right is there appearance? I knew it

636
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 3: wasn't going to go well, but I was like, I

637
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 3: need to like stand up. I should be able to

638
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 3: do what I want to do, live the life I

639
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 3: want to live.

640
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: The church did nothing to help. Naomi's intuition was screaming

641
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: at the top of her lungs. She was seeing signs

642
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,760
Speaker 1: everywhere that she had to take the jump to leave.

643
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: And when she finally did find the courage to leave

644
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: her husband to divorce him and speak out about her

645
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: treatment in IUIC on social media, she says that they

646
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: slandered her and made cruel videos about her.

647
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:51,720
Speaker 3: I was just astounded by how they made excuses for

648
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 3: the physical abuse. I was just really surprised, I mean,

649
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 3: because there was just so much evidence that show that

650
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 3: you just attacked me in your name, like in the

651
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 3: name of IUIC. This is what your number does.

652
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,240
Speaker 1: In the years since she left the church, Naomi hasn't

653
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,879
Speaker 1: had any direct contact with IUIC, but she has seen

654
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 1: them on the street. That's the one thing that worries her.

655
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 1: She started to see them around her area. They've been

656
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: in her neighborhood even posted up coincidentally outside of her church.

657
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: This is the reason why she agreed to do the podcast,

658
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: just in case someone else is listening and can learn

659
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: from her mistakes, because to her, IUIC appears to be growing,

660
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: and that could mean more women go through a similar experience.

661
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 3: I think just awareness, getting the word out there about

662
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 3: this particular group, that would do a lot of prevention

663
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 3: and prevent further tragedies from happening.

664
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: So, according to Vokab, who says he has sources within

665
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: the organization, Naomi's intuition is correct. IUIC is definitely growing,

666
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: expanding not just in the US and the UK, but

667
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: particularly across Africa and the Caribbean too. You are to

668
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: take a stab roughly at numbers of AUIC, what do

669
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: you reckon?

670
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 7: It might be eighty five hundred.

671
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 8: I'd be shocked if they were over twelve thousand, but

672
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 8: I think in the next five years, I think they're

673
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 8: going to be fifteen the next twenty years, twenty thousand members.

674
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,280
Speaker 8: Similar to the Nation of Islam. And that's important because

675
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 8: you can have a certain amount of numbers, but you

676
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 8: can have outsized influence.

677
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: The idea that au see or the Hebrew Israelites more

678
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 1: broadly have an outsized influence seems to be true. At

679
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: least one survey in the US points towards the normalization

680
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: of some Israelite beliefs. While celebrities like Kendrick Lamar, Kyrie Irving,

681
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: and Kanye West have all being connected to the Israelites

682
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: publicly in some fashion or another over the years. Kanye's

683
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: connection in particular was paired with vicious anti Semitism, while

684
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 1: Kyrie Irving, who's a professional basketball player, reposted a Hebrew

685
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: Israelite movie on Twitter that denied the Holocaust. He was

686
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 1: reprimanded for it, and IUC protested on his behalf outside

687
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: of a subsequent basketball game. So with that context, I

688
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: can't help but think, why do people keep joining IUC

689
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: and will that make them more dangerous? We're on interesting

690
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: political ground. We're recording this in the first year of

691
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:44,720
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's renewed presidency. White South African refugees have arrived

692
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: in the US. Elon Musk, Trump's former closest advisor, gave

693
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: a Nazi salute at his rally. Palestinians are being murdered

694
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: in the UK. Our Prime minister has given speeches echoing

695
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 1: language used by Enoch Powell and a far right party,

696
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: Reform UK, has won a bunch of seats in a

697
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: local election. A lot of the people I speak with

698
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: are terrified. A lot of ex members believe that this

699
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: means the Hebrew Israelites and IUIC specifically will use this

700
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 1: as an opportunity to grow in some ways. Can you

701
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 1: blame them? Black people are utterly disenfranchised. There are so

702
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: many facts and figures I could throw at you, but

703
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 1: at this point, if you don't believe me, perhaps you

704
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: never will. The long and short of it is that

705
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: when you mix personal traumas with the structural racism the

706
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: black community faces, it leads to vulnerabilities which make people

707
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: open to being exploited. Why do you think that they're

708
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: going to get more and more dangerous.

709
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,959
Speaker 4: They think that no one is going to stab them

710
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 4: because they genuinely think that God is the reason why

711
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 4: they're growing, or that's the message they put out with

712
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 4: Joy Morgan for example, rest in peace. They brush that

713
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,879
Speaker 4: under the rug, and they allegedly have people sign non

714
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 4: disclosure agreements. So I just feel like if they're continuing

715
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 4: down this pattern, it's only a matter of time before

716
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 4: something else blows up.

717
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: Now it feels like it's the time for accountability, to

718
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 1: hold up a mirror to AUC. I need to go

719
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: to the belly of the beast, to America where this

720
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: all started, and try to track down a particular man,

721
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: the founder and leader of IUC, Bishop Nathaniel Ben Israel.

722
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: But will he or anyone in leadership at AUC even

723
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: speak with me. If you have information you would like

724
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: to share with us about Joy Morgan or IUC, please

725
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: email The Missing Sister Podcast at gmail dot com if

726
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: you've been affected by any issues in this podcast and

727
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: need someone to talk to. The Samaritans are always available

728
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: day or night, three hundred and sixty five days a year.

729
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 1: You can call them for free on one one six

730
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: one two three, email them at Joe at Samaritans dot org,

731
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: or visit Samaritans dot org to find your nearest branch

732
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 1: for advice, support and options. If you or someone you

733
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 1: love goes missing, text or call Missing People on one

734
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: one six zero zero zero, or visit www dot Missing

735
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: people dot org dot UK. The Missing Sister Podcast has

736
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: partnered with The Mirror on their Missed campaign, highlighting forgotten

737
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 1: cases of missing people. To support the campaign, please sign

738
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: the petition linked to pressure the government into publishing a

739
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: new Missing Children and Adult strategy, invest in prevention for

740
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: those at most risk of going missing and office bought

741
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: to every missing child or adult on their return