1
00:00:04,078 --> 00:00:07,358
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:14,758 --> 00:00:17,718
Speaker 1: Hey Daron, welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcasts

3
00:00:18,158 --> 00:00:22,558
Speaker 1: with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden. Joe,

4
00:00:22,598 --> 00:00:24,678
Speaker 1: we need to talk about a trend I see in

5
00:00:24,838 --> 00:00:26,958
Speaker 1: around Major League Baseball and I can't believe this is

6
00:00:26,998 --> 00:00:32,238
Speaker 1: happening here, the stealing of signs off the bases without repercussions.

7
00:00:32,558 --> 00:00:36,118
Speaker 1: To me, that the culture of stealing signs has totally changed.

8
00:00:36,198 --> 00:00:38,318
Speaker 1: I mean, you remember, and it wasn't even that long

9
00:00:38,358 --> 00:00:41,518
Speaker 1: ago where if you were relaying signs off the basis,

10
00:00:41,518 --> 00:00:43,838
Speaker 1: somebody on your team was going to wear it on

11
00:00:43,878 --> 00:00:47,358
Speaker 1: the hip or maybe worse. And now we saw this

12
00:00:47,398 --> 00:00:49,598
Speaker 1: in the Yankees Blue Jays series. We saw it earlier

13
00:00:49,638 --> 00:00:52,878
Speaker 1: with the Yankees and the Seattle Mariners, where it just

14
00:00:53,198 --> 00:00:55,078
Speaker 1: seems to be a case of now, if a team

15
00:00:55,158 --> 00:00:57,158
Speaker 1: is doing that and blatantly by the way, the way

16
00:00:57,198 --> 00:00:58,998
Speaker 1: the Yankees are doing another basis, the.

17
00:00:58,998 --> 00:01:01,638
Speaker 2: Team in this case, Toronto says, that's on us. We

18
00:01:01,718 --> 00:01:02,398
Speaker 2: have to be better.

19
00:01:02,798 --> 00:01:05,318
Speaker 1: Give you your take real quick here to begin on

20
00:01:05,958 --> 00:01:09,198
Speaker 1: how you see this culture changing in terms of stealing

21
00:01:09,198 --> 00:01:10,238
Speaker 1: signs from basis.

22
00:01:10,438 --> 00:01:12,558
Speaker 3: Well, we've stripped away a lot of the aggress in

23
00:01:12,558 --> 00:01:15,398
Speaker 3: this in our game, just through rules and regulations and

24
00:01:15,758 --> 00:01:18,598
Speaker 3: right down to bat flips and celebrations where it's an

25
00:01:18,638 --> 00:01:21,118
Speaker 3: accepted part of the baseball culture. Now for us, you're

26
00:01:21,198 --> 00:01:23,318
Speaker 3: right back in the day man, if you thought somebody

27
00:01:23,398 --> 00:01:26,398
Speaker 3: was stealing signs, which I agree with what they're saying

28
00:01:26,478 --> 00:01:28,558
Speaker 3: that we have to do a better job of concealing

29
00:01:28,558 --> 00:01:29,078
Speaker 3: our signs.

30
00:01:29,118 --> 00:01:31,718
Speaker 4: Absolutely we do. However, part of it.

31
00:01:31,598 --> 00:01:33,918
Speaker 3: Is if I'm going to make you think about a

32
00:01:33,998 --> 00:01:37,358
Speaker 3: little bit, you're probably going to not try to do that.

33
00:01:37,878 --> 00:01:40,198
Speaker 3: So there's two ways of looking at I still think

34
00:01:40,238 --> 00:01:42,798
Speaker 3: there should be some retaliation in some regard. I'm not

35
00:01:42,798 --> 00:01:44,718
Speaker 3: saying hit anybody in the head. That's not my point,

36
00:01:44,798 --> 00:01:46,758
Speaker 3: but you have to be able. You have to make

37
00:01:46,798 --> 00:01:48,998
Speaker 3: the other side think twice and not make it so

38
00:01:49,078 --> 00:01:49,918
Speaker 3: easy on them.

39
00:01:49,758 --> 00:01:51,798
Speaker 4: To do it. However, I do agree with that.

40
00:01:51,838 --> 00:01:53,798
Speaker 3: I used to get upset because we're doing a horrible

41
00:01:53,878 --> 00:01:57,398
Speaker 3: job of concealing our signs, and that really comes down

42
00:01:57,438 --> 00:01:59,318
Speaker 3: to a lot of pictures I've run around second base

43
00:01:59,358 --> 00:02:00,118
Speaker 3: are very basic.

44
00:02:00,238 --> 00:02:01,518
Speaker 4: They don't like to have.

45
00:02:01,478 --> 00:02:04,718
Speaker 3: To think to the point where the catcher does different

46
00:02:04,918 --> 00:02:08,678
Speaker 3: multiple signs in order to make it more difficult, and

47
00:02:08,798 --> 00:02:11,318
Speaker 3: some guys will just refer to the first sign, second sign,

48
00:02:11,438 --> 00:02:14,718
Speaker 3: whatever sign only because it's easier for them to do that,

49
00:02:14,878 --> 00:02:18,878
Speaker 3: and then of course it becomes easier to steal signs. Also, location,

50
00:02:19,078 --> 00:02:22,198
Speaker 3: if you could just transmit location to the hitter, that

51
00:02:22,278 --> 00:02:24,998
Speaker 3: in and of itself is an advantage, just because right

52
00:02:24,998 --> 00:02:27,318
Speaker 3: handed pitcher throwing to a right handed hitter. If I

53
00:02:27,358 --> 00:02:29,518
Speaker 3: know the ball is going to be away, at least

54
00:02:29,518 --> 00:02:32,398
Speaker 3: I can look away, and that's definitely an advantage, or

55
00:02:32,478 --> 00:02:36,318
Speaker 3: look in looking away. It could be fastball or breaking ball, slider.

56
00:02:36,718 --> 00:02:38,918
Speaker 3: If it's the locations in it could be fastball. It

57
00:02:38,958 --> 00:02:40,798
Speaker 3: could be a change the way the game is evolved.

58
00:02:40,798 --> 00:02:42,878
Speaker 3: But at least I know which side of the play

59
00:02:42,958 --> 00:02:46,158
Speaker 3: to mentally protect. So I agree you need to do

60
00:02:46,198 --> 00:02:49,998
Speaker 3: a better job. I also believe that we're just becoming

61
00:02:50,038 --> 00:02:53,758
Speaker 3: way too polite in the game. I'm not into politeness,

62
00:02:54,358 --> 00:02:56,598
Speaker 3: you know. I'm not of that ilk that people think

63
00:02:56,638 --> 00:02:59,758
Speaker 3: you should shake hands after a game like the Stanley Cup.

64
00:02:59,878 --> 00:03:02,518
Speaker 3: Maybe after the seventh game of the World Series, possibly,

65
00:03:03,238 --> 00:03:05,438
Speaker 3: but I'm I'm just not built that way, and I

66
00:03:05,718 --> 00:03:08,878
Speaker 3: can't get over it. I can't permit myself to view

67
00:03:08,918 --> 00:03:11,358
Speaker 3: the world that way that it's so easy to lose

68
00:03:11,518 --> 00:03:15,278
Speaker 3: and I have to immediately demonstratively concede to my opponent.

69
00:03:15,358 --> 00:03:20,598
Speaker 3: So batflips all this other crap, not being retaliatory anymore, fraternization,

70
00:03:20,758 --> 00:03:24,558
Speaker 3: all that stuff. I saw Lindor and I think it

71
00:03:24,558 --> 00:03:27,118
Speaker 3: was Marte at second base the other day after a

72
00:03:27,158 --> 00:03:29,998
Speaker 3: close call. They're just waiting, They're waiting for the returns,

73
00:03:30,438 --> 00:03:32,638
Speaker 3: and they're just standing there like two buddies that grew

74
00:03:32,718 --> 00:03:35,238
Speaker 3: up in the same high school. It's gotten to the

75
00:03:35,238 --> 00:03:37,398
Speaker 3: point where that part of it does bother me a

76
00:03:37,438 --> 00:03:40,558
Speaker 3: little bit. Maybe that's old school in me, but I

77
00:03:41,158 --> 00:03:41,918
Speaker 3: still believe in it.

78
00:03:42,238 --> 00:03:45,278
Speaker 1: Yeah, listen, nobody wants to see guys, as you mentioned,

79
00:03:45,318 --> 00:03:47,958
Speaker 1: you know, throwing the ball up and in throwing the

80
00:03:47,998 --> 00:03:50,838
Speaker 1: ball now ninety five plus miles an hour being routine.

81
00:03:51,998 --> 00:03:54,518
Speaker 1: I never liked the idea that because you did something

82
00:03:54,838 --> 00:03:57,398
Speaker 1: that was against the unwritten rules, you're gonna be in

83
00:03:57,438 --> 00:04:00,158
Speaker 1: a harms way, literally a harms a way. Obviously there's

84
00:04:00,158 --> 00:04:02,358
Speaker 1: a way to do it. We saw Justin Verlander hit

85
00:04:02,398 --> 00:04:04,558
Speaker 1: Mason Wynn the other day exactly the way you're supposed

86
00:04:04,558 --> 00:04:05,038
Speaker 1: to do it, hit.

87
00:04:04,958 --> 00:04:05,798
Speaker 2: Him right in the wallet.

88
00:04:06,038 --> 00:04:08,558
Speaker 1: But that being said, we need to talk about, you know,

89
00:04:08,598 --> 00:04:11,198
Speaker 1: how it's being done, because the PitchCom device has been

90
00:04:11,198 --> 00:04:13,278
Speaker 1: great for the game, and it really if you remember

91
00:04:13,358 --> 00:04:16,838
Speaker 1: before it, there was so much Shenanigan's going on from

92
00:04:16,878 --> 00:04:19,318
Speaker 1: the bases in terms of picking up signs, and the

93
00:04:19,358 --> 00:04:22,758
Speaker 1: PitchCom device, the wireless communication between the catcher and the pitcher.

94
00:04:22,518 --> 00:04:24,238
Speaker 2: Has really cut down on that.

95
00:04:24,278 --> 00:04:27,438
Speaker 1: But what's happening now is the Yankees are getting signed

96
00:04:27,438 --> 00:04:29,158
Speaker 1: from the bases. By the way, in this case it

97
00:04:29,198 --> 00:04:33,358
Speaker 1: was Max Scherzer. Earlier it was Andre's Munoz the Mariners closer.

98
00:04:33,398 --> 00:04:35,518
Speaker 1: You know, Scherzer is coming to the set position with

99
00:04:35,558 --> 00:04:38,318
Speaker 1: his hands away from his body and high so that

100
00:04:38,598 --> 00:04:41,598
Speaker 1: Cody Bellinger on first base can actually see his grip

101
00:04:41,638 --> 00:04:44,478
Speaker 1: into his glove. He begins to raise his arms to

102
00:04:44,518 --> 00:04:47,358
Speaker 1: Aaron Judge at second base, and now he raises his

103
00:04:47,518 --> 00:04:49,678
Speaker 1: arms to Ben Rice in the batter's box. So Ben

104
00:04:49,758 --> 00:04:53,358
Speaker 1: Rice now knows whether it's a fastball or it's an

105
00:04:53,358 --> 00:04:56,198
Speaker 1: off speed pitch. And he actually beat the Blue Jays

106
00:04:56,238 --> 00:04:58,838
Speaker 1: in a key game in the Al East by getting

107
00:04:58,918 --> 00:05:02,078
Speaker 1: tipped off when the off speed pitch was coming. And

108
00:05:02,198 --> 00:05:04,518
Speaker 1: Ben Rice absolutely crushes fastballs.

109
00:05:04,558 --> 00:05:05,918
Speaker 2: He doesn't hit much off anything.

110
00:05:05,918 --> 00:05:06,078
Speaker 4: Else.

111
00:05:06,158 --> 00:05:08,878
Speaker 1: But he absolutely crushes fastballs. And he wound up getting

112
00:05:08,878 --> 00:05:11,238
Speaker 1: to a full count, getting a fastball and hit a

113
00:05:11,238 --> 00:05:15,078
Speaker 1: three run homer, all because he knew what pitch was coming.

114
00:05:15,158 --> 00:05:18,038
Speaker 1: Because Scherzer was not I call it ball security like

115
00:05:18,118 --> 00:05:21,678
Speaker 1: the NFL, Joe was not protecting the way he was coming.

116
00:05:21,798 --> 00:05:22,078
Speaker 2: Set.

117
00:05:22,198 --> 00:05:24,238
Speaker 1: Now, the issue here with me, Joe, is the way

118
00:05:24,278 --> 00:05:26,718
Speaker 1: the Yankees are doing it. And Cody Bellinger talked after

119
00:05:26,758 --> 00:05:29,878
Speaker 1: the game about this. Yes, we have the signs and

120
00:05:29,998 --> 00:05:32,398
Speaker 1: we don't care whether you know it or not. There

121
00:05:32,478 --> 00:05:35,118
Speaker 1: used to be discretion when it came to signaling them.

122
00:05:35,398 --> 00:05:37,358
Speaker 1: You know, a guy would lean one way or another.

123
00:05:37,478 --> 00:05:40,798
Speaker 1: He would tap the top of his helmet, some subtle sign.

124
00:05:40,998 --> 00:05:43,718
Speaker 1: The Yankees are out there and landing airplanes on the tarmac.

125
00:05:43,878 --> 00:05:44,598
Speaker 2: They don't care.

126
00:05:45,358 --> 00:05:48,678
Speaker 1: And you know, even John Schneider, the Toronto Blue Jay manager,

127
00:05:48,798 --> 00:05:51,238
Speaker 1: was like, hey, that's on us now. I did speak

128
00:05:51,238 --> 00:05:54,038
Speaker 1: with another manager, Joe, and maybe you're along this line

129
00:05:54,078 --> 00:05:57,158
Speaker 1: as well, who told me, listen, everybody does it. We

130
00:05:57,358 --> 00:06:00,478
Speaker 1: do it, but we think it's disrespectful to do it

131
00:06:00,678 --> 00:06:04,358
Speaker 1: so blatantly. You know, they're more subtle about the way

132
00:06:04,398 --> 00:06:07,118
Speaker 1: they relay it when they do have the signs from somebody.

133
00:06:07,878 --> 00:06:10,838
Speaker 1: Should that make a difference, Joe, if you're getting the signs,

134
00:06:11,318 --> 00:06:13,598
Speaker 1: should you be essentially rubbing it in the face as

135
00:06:13,718 --> 00:06:16,398
Speaker 1: the other team or should you be more discreet about it?

136
00:06:16,438 --> 00:06:19,518
Speaker 4: I like what Bellacher did. Actually, that's almost like the

137
00:06:19,598 --> 00:06:20,478
Speaker 4: Jack Ryan approach.

138
00:06:20,518 --> 00:06:22,838
Speaker 3: Yeah, we did it, we got it, and now it's

139
00:06:22,838 --> 00:06:25,758
Speaker 3: your turn to do something about it back at us whatever.

140
00:06:25,998 --> 00:06:29,878
Speaker 3: So again this I think this is a weird philosophical

141
00:06:29,998 --> 00:06:32,838
Speaker 3: argument that could be bounced back and forth all day long.

142
00:06:33,318 --> 00:06:35,918
Speaker 3: There's no one right answer, and there's no wrong answer

143
00:06:35,998 --> 00:06:39,398
Speaker 3: right here. Yeah, if you're tipping like the I actually

144
00:06:39,438 --> 00:06:41,718
Speaker 3: wrote grip down before he got into that, because the

145
00:06:41,718 --> 00:06:43,438
Speaker 3: guys at second base can see.

146
00:06:43,278 --> 00:06:44,038
Speaker 4: The hand in the glove.

147
00:06:44,318 --> 00:06:47,158
Speaker 3: And furthermore, there are thieves on the bench that really

148
00:06:47,198 --> 00:06:49,558
Speaker 3: can pick up things in advance, just by the way

149
00:06:49,598 --> 00:06:52,518
Speaker 3: you come set. I've talked about this before the Great

150
00:06:52,558 --> 00:06:54,478
Speaker 3: West Westerroom. I used to sit with Wes at games

151
00:06:54,478 --> 00:06:56,878
Speaker 3: at Arizona State. West used to call pitches for Willie

152
00:06:56,878 --> 00:06:59,358
Speaker 3: Mays and William mcubvey from the first base coaching box,

153
00:06:59,798 --> 00:07:02,318
Speaker 3: and Wes would sit there and call Kendall Carter's pitches

154
00:07:02,678 --> 00:07:03,198
Speaker 3: right before he.

155
00:07:03,198 --> 00:07:03,678
Speaker 4: Threw the ball.

156
00:07:03,758 --> 00:07:06,598
Speaker 3: So that to me is fair game, I believe. And

157
00:07:06,638 --> 00:07:08,838
Speaker 3: so what kind of what bellingers say is fair game?

158
00:07:08,918 --> 00:07:11,718
Speaker 3: If and if ciarsar is that obvious, that's fair game.

159
00:07:12,038 --> 00:07:14,918
Speaker 3: That's that is not cheating in any way, shape or form.

160
00:07:14,958 --> 00:07:17,278
Speaker 3: That is good baseball as far as I'm concerned, And

161
00:07:17,478 --> 00:07:20,638
Speaker 3: I kind of agree there that retaliation is not necessary

162
00:07:20,758 --> 00:07:22,998
Speaker 3: right there. We have to do a better job of

163
00:07:23,118 --> 00:07:27,878
Speaker 3: protecting our pitches. When does the retaliation become an issue? Again,

164
00:07:28,158 --> 00:07:30,758
Speaker 3: I'm not saying actually like hit somebody, but you got

165
00:07:30,798 --> 00:07:32,798
Speaker 3: to make somebody uncomfortable. You got to change it up,

166
00:07:32,838 --> 00:07:36,358
Speaker 3: maybe signe wise, so that this typical tipping thing that

167
00:07:36,398 --> 00:07:39,718
Speaker 3: you're gonna do, you zig when they think you're gonna zag.

168
00:07:39,758 --> 00:07:41,118
Speaker 3: I mean, in other words, if they think it's a

169
00:07:41,158 --> 00:07:43,878
Speaker 3: fastball based on what you've been doing, so you tip

170
00:07:43,918 --> 00:07:47,038
Speaker 3: intentionally and then throw the opposite pitch to really confuse

171
00:07:47,118 --> 00:07:49,118
Speaker 3: because I'll tell you what, when you get it wrong once,

172
00:07:49,318 --> 00:07:51,878
Speaker 3: just one time, if the runner at second base gets

173
00:07:51,918 --> 00:07:54,278
Speaker 3: it wrong one time, the hitter loses a lot of

174
00:07:54,318 --> 00:07:58,078
Speaker 3: confidence there because it gets really uncomfortable when you're sitting

175
00:07:58,158 --> 00:07:59,958
Speaker 3: something soft save for instance, and all of a sudden

176
00:07:59,958 --> 00:08:00,878
Speaker 3: the guy buzzes you.

177
00:08:01,198 --> 00:08:03,078
Speaker 4: Bad feeling, really bad feeling.

178
00:08:03,158 --> 00:08:05,598
Speaker 3: So there's way I used to combat that within the

179
00:08:06,158 --> 00:08:08,358
Speaker 3: structure of the game where it does not call for

180
00:08:08,518 --> 00:08:11,158
Speaker 3: violence in a sense. But again, if you're messing it up,

181
00:08:11,318 --> 00:08:14,558
Speaker 3: if you're tipping, if you're doing things, that is fair game.

182
00:08:14,798 --> 00:08:16,798
Speaker 3: Just like I used to be really good. I talked

183
00:08:16,798 --> 00:08:19,558
Speaker 3: about this in stealing signs from third base coaches. I

184
00:08:19,598 --> 00:08:22,398
Speaker 3: would study them things that Preston Gomez had taught me,

185
00:08:22,798 --> 00:08:24,598
Speaker 3: and I had a really good run in the late

186
00:08:24,678 --> 00:08:27,318
Speaker 3: nineties when pitch out was more popular because of the

187
00:08:27,398 --> 00:08:29,878
Speaker 3: hit and run, etc. So that was always fair game.

188
00:08:29,958 --> 00:08:32,598
Speaker 3: That's not cheating to me, that's like good baseball sense.

189
00:08:32,958 --> 00:08:35,798
Speaker 3: So there's a fine line here between when you really

190
00:08:35,838 --> 00:08:38,598
Speaker 3: need to do something about it and as opposed to, yeah,

191
00:08:38,638 --> 00:08:40,318
Speaker 3: I gotta do something about I got to be better

192
00:08:40,358 --> 00:08:43,198
Speaker 3: at what we're doing and not being so concerned about

193
00:08:43,198 --> 00:08:43,798
Speaker 3: what they're doing.

194
00:08:43,958 --> 00:08:46,678
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was only about I want to say now,

195
00:08:46,718 --> 00:08:49,278
Speaker 1: three years ago, there was a pitching coach that showed

196
00:08:49,318 --> 00:08:51,998
Speaker 1: me screenshots of what his club was doing, and this

197
00:08:52,158 --> 00:08:55,718
Speaker 1: was on his own pitcher, where you could tell that

198
00:08:55,998 --> 00:08:58,598
Speaker 1: the position of his hand placement on a breaking ball

199
00:08:58,598 --> 00:09:03,718
Speaker 1: in the fastball was slightly different. Now they have algorithms

200
00:09:04,038 --> 00:09:07,518
Speaker 1: programs to go through all the videos on pictures, and

201
00:09:07,558 --> 00:09:10,998
Speaker 1: every club has videos, not just what you're watching at home,

202
00:09:11,038 --> 00:09:13,278
Speaker 1: but cameras trained on every picture to try to pick

203
00:09:13,358 --> 00:09:17,398
Speaker 1: up tells and they can tell by it essentially through

204
00:09:17,438 --> 00:09:22,278
Speaker 1: AI where something is different consistently, and so every team

205
00:09:22,358 --> 00:09:24,758
Speaker 1: is doing this. If you do have a tail, people

206
00:09:24,798 --> 00:09:27,758
Speaker 1: are going to know. You have to obviously self scout

207
00:09:27,838 --> 00:09:30,478
Speaker 1: to make sure you're not giving anything away. So it's

208
00:09:30,518 --> 00:09:34,518
Speaker 1: got next level in terms of technology. And I think pictures, well,

209
00:09:34,518 --> 00:09:37,198
Speaker 1: I know pictures have to spend so much time on it,

210
00:09:37,798 --> 00:09:39,998
Speaker 1: but I'm going to give you an example, Joe, of

211
00:09:40,078 --> 00:09:42,318
Speaker 1: how difficult it can be in the heat of competition.

212
00:09:42,478 --> 00:09:45,438
Speaker 1: Nabille Chris Mott is a picture for the Arizona Diamondbacks

213
00:09:45,638 --> 00:09:49,838
Speaker 1: and Tory Leavello, the manager realized he was tipping his pitches. Now,

214
00:09:50,078 --> 00:09:52,118
Speaker 1: you may have seen something like this in the past, Joe,

215
00:09:52,358 --> 00:09:55,838
Speaker 1: where he comes set with the hand in the glove

216
00:09:56,038 --> 00:09:58,758
Speaker 1: at the belt and he's essentially an off.

217
00:09:58,598 --> 00:10:00,238
Speaker 2: Speed pitcher, a lot of change ups, a lot of

218
00:10:00,238 --> 00:10:00,718
Speaker 2: breaking ball.

219
00:10:00,798 --> 00:10:03,558
Speaker 1: But what he was regripping to throw a change up

220
00:10:03,638 --> 00:10:07,118
Speaker 1: or break the glove would fan a little more because

221
00:10:07,118 --> 00:10:09,318
Speaker 1: he's getting his fingers around the baseball when he was

222
00:10:09,318 --> 00:10:11,718
Speaker 1: throwing his fastball, where the fingers are not so much

223
00:10:11,758 --> 00:10:14,758
Speaker 1: around the baseball, the glove was not fanning. And there

224
00:10:14,758 --> 00:10:16,718
Speaker 1: were times in the course of a game after they

225
00:10:16,758 --> 00:10:20,038
Speaker 1: alerted him to this where Tori from the dugout would

226
00:10:20,238 --> 00:10:22,278
Speaker 1: actually yell at him and say, stop it.

227
00:10:22,278 --> 00:10:23,358
Speaker 2: You're doing it again.

228
00:10:23,478 --> 00:10:25,878
Speaker 1: Because your body wants to do it. It wants to do

229
00:10:25,998 --> 00:10:28,638
Speaker 1: naturally right. He'd a competition, maybe you're not paying attention

230
00:10:28,718 --> 00:10:30,478
Speaker 1: to it, and every once in a while, Tory we'd

231
00:10:30,518 --> 00:10:32,878
Speaker 1: have to remind him. But that's how they fixed him.

232
00:10:32,918 --> 00:10:36,038
Speaker 1: And every team had this. So this is going on

233
00:10:36,318 --> 00:10:38,118
Speaker 1: and you can't get away with it the way you

234
00:10:38,158 --> 00:10:40,918
Speaker 1: did in the past because every team has essentially an

235
00:10:41,038 --> 00:10:43,358
Speaker 1: army of analysts who are looking at these things. It's

236
00:10:43,398 --> 00:10:44,758
Speaker 1: part of what the game is today, and I think

237
00:10:44,798 --> 00:10:46,238
Speaker 1: that's why the culture has changed.

238
00:10:46,278 --> 00:10:46,398
Speaker 4: Though.

239
00:10:46,438 --> 00:10:48,198
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, there used to be certain guys like

240
00:10:48,198 --> 00:10:50,998
Speaker 1: a West westroom who has almost a gift to figure

241
00:10:50,998 --> 00:10:53,478
Speaker 1: out these tells, and now you have an army of

242
00:10:53,518 --> 00:10:57,358
Speaker 1: analysts breaking pictures down. So everybody's doing it and there's

243
00:10:57,358 --> 00:11:00,158
Speaker 1: a lot of focus and attention and time paid to it, no.

244
00:11:00,038 --> 00:11:03,838
Speaker 3: Doubt all true. The thing I still like, I'm surprised

245
00:11:03,958 --> 00:11:05,998
Speaker 3: that maybe more haven't done. It is like a Ryan Dempster.

246
00:11:06,078 --> 00:11:09,678
Speaker 3: Remember Demper would just constantly move his glove he.

247
00:11:09,758 --> 00:11:10,678
Speaker 2: Was making a martini.

248
00:11:10,838 --> 00:11:13,958
Speaker 3: Joe, Yeah, exactly, shaken nuts, stirred or stirred, not shake

249
00:11:14,118 --> 00:11:16,678
Speaker 3: no shaken nuts dirt. Yes, I don't understand why maybe

250
00:11:16,718 --> 00:11:18,918
Speaker 3: that might not become more popular. The problem with that

251
00:11:19,078 --> 00:11:22,278
Speaker 3: is just the you suggest that being comfortable or uncomfortable

252
00:11:22,318 --> 00:11:24,718
Speaker 3: doing those kinds of things from the picture's perspective. So

253
00:11:24,718 --> 00:11:26,758
Speaker 3: that would be something you would have to teacher, really

254
00:11:27,158 --> 00:11:29,518
Speaker 3: want to get into in the minor league situation, just

255
00:11:29,598 --> 00:11:32,678
Speaker 3: to make it more complicated in a sense, just the

256
00:11:32,678 --> 00:11:36,958
Speaker 3: way you start, as opposed to just this pure clean delivery,

257
00:11:36,958 --> 00:11:39,358
Speaker 3: because there was even to the point back I remember

258
00:11:39,478 --> 00:11:42,718
Speaker 3: specifically a very popular thing when the guys used to

259
00:11:42,718 --> 00:11:44,998
Speaker 3: do a more full wind up, when their hand would

260
00:11:44,998 --> 00:11:47,198
Speaker 3: swing down by the side of their body. Out of

261
00:11:47,198 --> 00:11:50,278
Speaker 3: the wind up, you would see only fingers on a

262
00:11:50,358 --> 00:11:52,238
Speaker 3: fastball in the hand came back and you would see

263
00:11:52,238 --> 00:11:54,118
Speaker 3: a lot of white on a breaking ball, And that

264
00:11:54,238 --> 00:11:57,598
Speaker 3: was a really easy surefire away of really determining what

265
00:11:57,678 --> 00:11:59,718
Speaker 3: was with pitch was coming at you. So there's all

266
00:11:59,758 --> 00:12:03,158
Speaker 3: the little nuance involved. But I liked the idea of

267
00:12:03,238 --> 00:12:05,878
Speaker 3: a little bit more movement with your glove as you

268
00:12:05,918 --> 00:12:07,998
Speaker 3: start this whole thing, and then out of the with

269
00:12:08,038 --> 00:12:10,358
Speaker 3: the runner on second base, if you truly believe that's

270
00:12:10,398 --> 00:12:12,918
Speaker 3: going on to set it up in advance, that you're

271
00:12:12,958 --> 00:12:15,718
Speaker 3: gonna call one thing and do something completely different just

272
00:12:15,758 --> 00:12:18,318
Speaker 3: to get this hitter off of it. Because again I'm

273
00:12:18,358 --> 00:12:20,478
Speaker 3: telling you one time and the hitter, the hitter will

274
00:12:20,518 --> 00:12:22,038
Speaker 3: definitely retreat at that point.

275
00:12:22,198 --> 00:12:24,918
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's surprising to me that Max Scherzer is still

276
00:12:24,958 --> 00:12:27,358
Speaker 1: coming to the set position with his hands so high

277
00:12:27,398 --> 00:12:31,438
Speaker 1: and away from his body. If you watch most pitchers today,

278
00:12:31,598 --> 00:12:35,038
Speaker 1: their glove is tight on the belly, I mean really

279
00:12:35,038 --> 00:12:36,838
Speaker 1: close to the body. A lot of guys actually have

280
00:12:36,918 --> 00:12:39,158
Speaker 1: it turned more towards the side so it's even away

281
00:12:39,198 --> 00:12:41,918
Speaker 1: from the hitter, so you don't see any regripping. You

282
00:12:41,958 --> 00:12:44,518
Speaker 1: don't see the shape of the glove. To me, pitching

283
00:12:44,558 --> 00:12:46,278
Speaker 1: has changed a lot in that way, Joe. You don't

284
00:12:46,318 --> 00:12:49,278
Speaker 1: see guys coming set with their hands higher away from

285
00:12:49,278 --> 00:12:51,198
Speaker 1: their body, and Max Scherzer did that.

286
00:12:51,798 --> 00:12:54,198
Speaker 2: And listen, when you're playing the Yankees.

287
00:12:53,878 --> 00:12:56,918
Speaker 1: These days, as Cody Bellinger let us know, they're not

288
00:12:56,998 --> 00:12:59,878
Speaker 1: bashful about it, and they're as good as anybody when

289
00:12:59,918 --> 00:13:02,518
Speaker 1: it comes to breaking down. And not necessarily the players.

290
00:13:02,518 --> 00:13:05,158
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the front office. You know they have

291
00:13:05,238 --> 00:13:07,758
Speaker 1: Maven's there who can figure these things out. You have

292
00:13:07,798 --> 00:13:10,158
Speaker 1: to know when you're playing New York ball, security is

293
00:13:10,198 --> 00:13:12,558
Speaker 1: a top priority. They can get inside your head.

294
00:13:12,518 --> 00:13:14,358
Speaker 4: No doubt. I mean. And that's like I said, that's

295
00:13:14,358 --> 00:13:14,798
Speaker 4: all good.

296
00:13:14,838 --> 00:13:16,718
Speaker 3: I have no issue with that, and you're right about

297
00:13:16,718 --> 00:13:19,238
Speaker 3: the to me, that's where analytics is.

298
00:13:19,278 --> 00:13:19,638
Speaker 4: Okay.

299
00:13:19,838 --> 00:13:22,718
Speaker 3: Actually, I don't think that's cheating. What I wanted to do,

300
00:13:23,238 --> 00:13:25,118
Speaker 3: I guess it was illegal. But what I wanted to

301
00:13:25,158 --> 00:13:28,358
Speaker 3: do way back when in the nineties was as I

302
00:13:28,398 --> 00:13:30,318
Speaker 3: was the first base coach with the Angels, I wanted

303
00:13:30,318 --> 00:13:33,078
Speaker 3: a camera behind first base, at least at home, so

304
00:13:33,118 --> 00:13:36,118
Speaker 3: I could study the opposition pitchers moves to try to

305
00:13:36,118 --> 00:13:38,278
Speaker 3: give a better key to the runner in order to

306
00:13:38,398 --> 00:13:41,118
Speaker 3: like just especially against the lefty, to get a better

307
00:13:41,438 --> 00:13:44,198
Speaker 3: jump and even steal against left tended pictures were.

308
00:13:44,078 --> 00:13:45,598
Speaker 4: Know when to come back. So I always thought that

309
00:13:45,638 --> 00:13:46,478
Speaker 4: would have been a good.

310
00:13:46,318 --> 00:13:48,918
Speaker 3: Idea, and I was told I couldn't do that although

311
00:13:48,958 --> 00:13:51,638
Speaker 3: we had like Little Diego had little cameras on both

312
00:13:51,678 --> 00:13:54,238
Speaker 3: sides for hitters that I had him kind of read

313
00:13:54,238 --> 00:13:58,078
Speaker 3: direct towards the picture when we got to that particular point,

314
00:13:58,278 --> 00:14:00,158
Speaker 3: I can't. I'd like to say that it was more helpful.

315
00:14:00,198 --> 00:14:04,638
Speaker 3: It really wasn't. But I think based on today's abilities,

316
00:14:04,718 --> 00:14:07,038
Speaker 3: I would even be surprised that that's not being done

317
00:14:07,038 --> 00:14:09,358
Speaker 3: at some point. But all this stuff, all the chech man,

318
00:14:09,398 --> 00:14:11,918
Speaker 3: I'm telling you, it does. It turns it down into

319
00:14:11,998 --> 00:14:14,798
Speaker 3: a still picture that you can be studied. And then

320
00:14:14,838 --> 00:14:16,638
Speaker 3: you just played over and over again for the guys

321
00:14:16,678 --> 00:14:18,478
Speaker 3: before the game, and all of a sudden you got

322
00:14:18,478 --> 00:14:21,638
Speaker 3: a definitive key when you know the other team signs

323
00:14:21,638 --> 00:14:24,598
Speaker 3: of what they're doing. Man, it's a tremendous advantage, just

324
00:14:24,598 --> 00:14:25,478
Speaker 3: as you would think it is.

325
00:14:26,118 --> 00:14:28,158
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it works for the Yankees. I mean

326
00:14:28,198 --> 00:14:30,398
Speaker 1: the fact that they do it so blatantly. It actually

327
00:14:30,478 --> 00:14:33,278
Speaker 1: is an effective way because it has to be done quickly.

328
00:14:33,318 --> 00:14:36,518
Speaker 1: Remember they're talking about a run around first relaying to second,

329
00:14:36,598 --> 00:14:39,838
Speaker 1: run around second relaying to the batter, and in some

330
00:14:39,878 --> 00:14:42,318
Speaker 1: cases it was the first pace coach relaying to the

331
00:14:42,398 --> 00:14:45,518
Speaker 1: runner on second base. So you can see it's right

332
00:14:45,638 --> 00:14:49,198
Speaker 1: before the shurezer begins to take the body the glove

333
00:14:49,238 --> 00:14:51,558
Speaker 1: and begin the delivery, that the batter is getting the

334
00:14:51,558 --> 00:14:54,518
Speaker 1: message from second. That's enough time, right, Joe. If you're

335
00:14:54,518 --> 00:14:56,838
Speaker 1: a batter and you realize you're getting.

336
00:14:56,598 --> 00:14:58,718
Speaker 2: Tipped off that the change up is coming, even if.

337
00:14:58,598 --> 00:15:00,598
Speaker 1: It's right before the pitch, you could do so you're

338
00:15:00,598 --> 00:15:01,318
Speaker 1: gonna sit back.

339
00:15:01,398 --> 00:15:03,238
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll tell you what we And again on the

340
00:15:03,278 --> 00:15:07,358
Speaker 3: basis to give an example, we had a triangulation going

341
00:15:07,398 --> 00:15:10,718
Speaker 3: on with the Angels. Ron Redicky, great third base coach,

342
00:15:10,758 --> 00:15:13,678
Speaker 3: outstanding and he learned it from Joey mal Patano, and

343
00:15:13,718 --> 00:15:15,878
Speaker 3: we had Primo Alfredo Griffin at first and I was

344
00:15:15,918 --> 00:15:16,558
Speaker 3: in the dugout.

345
00:15:16,758 --> 00:15:18,638
Speaker 4: What we tried to do is get the.

346
00:15:18,278 --> 00:15:20,518
Speaker 3: Bench coaches signs to the catcher, because it was everything

347
00:15:20,598 --> 00:15:23,438
Speaker 3: was control throwover or no throw over, and maybe a

348
00:15:23,478 --> 00:15:25,558
Speaker 3: pitch out signed too. So what we'd be able to

349
00:15:25,558 --> 00:15:27,518
Speaker 3: do once we figure them out, we would be able to.

350
00:15:27,798 --> 00:15:29,958
Speaker 3: If I got it, you give it to Rags and

351
00:15:30,038 --> 00:15:33,758
Speaker 3: Rags that's Ronnie Renicke. He'd look in to he'd look

352
00:15:33,798 --> 00:15:36,518
Speaker 3: at the runner at first base in the moment Rags

353
00:15:36,678 --> 00:15:39,598
Speaker 3: the pitcher comes set. If Rags would lean towards his

354
00:15:39,678 --> 00:15:42,078
Speaker 3: left like towards second base. The runner knew that the

355
00:15:42,118 --> 00:15:44,718
Speaker 3: pitcher was not coming over, so the runner had this

356
00:15:44,798 --> 00:15:46,598
Speaker 3: free reign of going to second base if he did

357
00:15:46,598 --> 00:15:49,318
Speaker 3: not lean, maybe Ronnie wasn't sure. Heads up, the ball

358
00:15:49,438 --> 00:15:52,518
Speaker 3: is coming over to you. A tremendous advantage, so sometimes

359
00:15:52,558 --> 00:15:55,118
Speaker 3: Primo Alfredo Griffin would grab it. He was also good

360
00:15:55,118 --> 00:15:57,878
Speaker 3: at grips and he could see the catcher sign sometimes

361
00:15:57,918 --> 00:16:00,318
Speaker 3: all this stuff. So we had this triangulation work. And

362
00:16:00,358 --> 00:16:02,758
Speaker 3: if you remember in the early two thousands, we did

363
00:16:02,798 --> 00:16:05,318
Speaker 3: a great job against the Yankees. We had the bench

364
00:16:05,358 --> 00:16:07,918
Speaker 3: coach signs coming in on the throwovers, and they had

365
00:16:07,918 --> 00:16:11,918
Speaker 3: two different catches, Pisado and Flaherty, and we knew each

366
00:16:11,958 --> 00:16:13,598
Speaker 3: had I think it was first sign or second sign

367
00:16:13,638 --> 00:16:15,678
Speaker 3: based on who the catcher was, and we had that

368
00:16:15,758 --> 00:16:18,198
Speaker 3: all figured out. So in that like you're talking about,

369
00:16:18,198 --> 00:16:20,798
Speaker 3: that nanosecond, that brief moment, we could get that sign,

370
00:16:21,198 --> 00:16:23,638
Speaker 3: get it to Rags. Rags in a moment would see

371
00:16:23,678 --> 00:16:26,278
Speaker 3: what was going on and he would lean or not lean.

372
00:16:26,358 --> 00:16:28,758
Speaker 4: And we had a tremendous advantage.

373
00:16:29,158 --> 00:16:32,038
Speaker 3: And that was all done by the factor because the

374
00:16:32,078 --> 00:16:34,078
Speaker 3: other team did not conceal their signs.

375
00:16:34,078 --> 00:16:37,598
Speaker 1: Well enough, great stuff. I love hearing those stories, Joe.

376
00:16:37,918 --> 00:16:40,198
Speaker 1: What I want to hear from you next is the

377
00:16:40,278 --> 00:16:42,558
Speaker 1: teams that played for the National League Pennant last year.

378
00:16:42,598 --> 00:16:45,558
Speaker 1: The Dodgers and the New York Mets are both scuffling.

379
00:16:45,878 --> 00:16:46,838
Speaker 2: Are they in trouble?

380
00:16:47,358 --> 00:16:59,318
Speaker 1: We'll examine that right after this on the Book of Joe.

381
00:17:02,158 --> 00:17:04,518
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Book of Joe, and we need

382
00:17:04,558 --> 00:17:06,958
Speaker 1: to talk about the New York Mets. Joe, they are

383
00:17:06,998 --> 00:17:09,838
Speaker 1: in a fourteen and twenty four free fall since the

384
00:17:09,958 --> 00:17:14,078
Speaker 1: end of July. They've actually outscored their opponents by somehow,

385
00:17:14,118 --> 00:17:16,838
Speaker 1: losing twenty four of those thirty eight games two eighteen

386
00:17:16,878 --> 00:17:18,998
Speaker 1: to two eight. They've outscored opponents. Now, there was a

387
00:17:18,998 --> 00:17:21,198
Speaker 1: couple of blowout wins they had in there, but they're

388
00:17:21,238 --> 00:17:24,398
Speaker 1: losing close games. They've lost eleven of the last fifteen

389
00:17:24,438 --> 00:17:27,438
Speaker 1: games decided by two runs. Monday night, they go to Philadelphia.

390
00:17:27,838 --> 00:17:30,398
Speaker 1: They lose again by one run, one to nothing. Tell

391
00:17:30,438 --> 00:17:32,278
Speaker 1: me about what you see of this team, Joe. It

392
00:17:32,318 --> 00:17:35,278
Speaker 1: should be a much better team offensively. We know about

393
00:17:35,278 --> 00:17:37,358
Speaker 1: some of the issues they've had in the pitching department,

394
00:17:37,398 --> 00:17:38,278
Speaker 1: but they're in a bit of.

395
00:17:38,198 --> 00:17:40,278
Speaker 2: A free fall. Here and they don't seem to be

396
00:17:40,318 --> 00:17:41,078
Speaker 2: able to stop it.

397
00:17:41,238 --> 00:17:43,238
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of like your record tells you who

398
00:17:43,238 --> 00:17:45,678
Speaker 3: you are. Kind of a thing that Bill Parcells. Listen

399
00:17:45,718 --> 00:17:47,518
Speaker 3: on the field, they got some nice things going on,

400
00:17:47,558 --> 00:17:51,118
Speaker 3: there's no question. I mean Alonso, thank god they signed him, right,

401
00:17:51,158 --> 00:17:52,998
Speaker 3: I mean, had they not signed him, that had been

402
00:17:53,078 --> 00:17:56,198
Speaker 3: an entirely different look for them for this season. What

403
00:17:56,318 --> 00:17:58,398
Speaker 3: I see a lot of times from my perspective, a

404
00:17:58,438 --> 00:18:01,398
Speaker 3: lot of breakdowns in the bullpen. Hensley comes over from

405
00:18:01,438 --> 00:18:03,918
Speaker 3: the Cardinals that miss and this guy's got great stuff.

406
00:18:03,958 --> 00:18:06,438
Speaker 3: He doesn't have good stuff, he's got great stuff. So

407
00:18:06,478 --> 00:18:08,358
Speaker 3: maybe he's the tipper of the month. I don't know,

408
00:18:08,398 --> 00:18:11,678
Speaker 3: because guys are all over his stuff and I've seen

409
00:18:11,758 --> 00:18:14,998
Speaker 3: him in person. This is really high end fuel that's

410
00:18:15,038 --> 00:18:17,398
Speaker 3: getting turned around quite regularly.

411
00:18:17,918 --> 00:18:20,078
Speaker 1: You'll let me stop you there, Yeah, roughly, because that's

412
00:18:20,078 --> 00:18:23,518
Speaker 1: a great point. I'm watching him against Philadelphia Monday night.

413
00:18:23,878 --> 00:18:27,678
Speaker 1: You saw him pitching. He threw fifteen pitches, fourteen of

414
00:18:27,718 --> 00:18:30,238
Speaker 1: them were breaking balls. This is a guy who throws

415
00:18:30,278 --> 00:18:33,358
Speaker 1: one hundred miles an hour, averages about fifty percent of

416
00:18:33,398 --> 00:18:37,998
Speaker 1: his pitches being foreseen fastballs. He threw one foreseen fastball

417
00:18:38,118 --> 00:18:41,158
Speaker 1: out of fifteen pitches. There's no reason to that. I mean,

418
00:18:41,478 --> 00:18:44,838
Speaker 1: he's facing Batory, he's facing Kepler, he's facing real Muto.

419
00:18:44,998 --> 00:18:46,918
Speaker 2: You know, this wasn't Schwerbery, it wasn't Harper.

420
00:18:46,998 --> 00:18:48,838
Speaker 1: I mean, for a guy like that to run away

421
00:18:48,838 --> 00:18:51,398
Speaker 1: from his fastball, he's had a tremendous amount of trouble

422
00:18:51,678 --> 00:18:53,718
Speaker 1: trying to get into a routine now that he's not

423
00:18:53,838 --> 00:18:56,278
Speaker 1: the ninth inning. Pitch the ninth inning, you know, clean

424
00:18:56,438 --> 00:18:58,718
Speaker 1: one inning every single time. Just does not do a

425
00:18:58,718 --> 00:19:01,238
Speaker 1: good job when dropped into a game before the ninth inning.

426
00:19:01,478 --> 00:19:02,278
Speaker 2: This is a big.

427
00:19:02,078 --> 00:19:04,518
Speaker 1: Problem for the New York Mets. Why would he throwing

428
00:19:04,558 --> 00:19:05,558
Speaker 1: so many breaking balls?

429
00:19:05,638 --> 00:19:07,918
Speaker 4: Joe two, I think I got two points.

430
00:19:07,958 --> 00:19:09,918
Speaker 3: I would think of Number one would be that he's

431
00:19:09,998 --> 00:19:12,118
Speaker 3: not proud of his fastball. That's the that's the phrase

432
00:19:12,198 --> 00:19:15,318
Speaker 3: we use, even though it registers and triple digits. He's

433
00:19:15,358 --> 00:19:17,518
Speaker 3: not proud of his fastball. The confidence has gone, it's

434
00:19:17,518 --> 00:19:19,718
Speaker 3: gotten turned around a little bit. And it could be

435
00:19:19,798 --> 00:19:22,358
Speaker 3: that other part would be the way the other team,

436
00:19:22,638 --> 00:19:25,478
Speaker 3: the Mets breakdown the other team's hitters and we throw

437
00:19:25,518 --> 00:19:27,518
Speaker 3: this guy. Just feed this guy breaking balls, his feeding

438
00:19:27,558 --> 00:19:29,838
Speaker 3: breaking balls. He can't hit a breaking ball that kind

439
00:19:29,838 --> 00:19:31,638
Speaker 3: of a thing. So or it just might be a

440
00:19:31,638 --> 00:19:33,918
Speaker 3: combination of both. That he's not proud of his fastball

441
00:19:33,998 --> 00:19:37,078
Speaker 3: right now, plus this particular group of hitters you're talking about,

442
00:19:37,078 --> 00:19:39,278
Speaker 3: because real Mudo has been hot too. Man, he's had

443
00:19:39,318 --> 00:19:42,318
Speaker 3: a nice second half. They that just might have been strategy.

444
00:19:42,638 --> 00:19:44,958
Speaker 3: He's also he's got a really good breaking ball too.

445
00:19:45,078 --> 00:19:47,798
Speaker 3: So I just think from what I've seen, Like I said,

446
00:19:47,838 --> 00:19:50,998
Speaker 3: I've seen that one hundred one on one been turned

447
00:19:50,998 --> 00:19:52,518
Speaker 3: around like a god dang it.

448
00:19:52,518 --> 00:19:54,358
Speaker 4: It's just like the evolution of the hitter.

449
00:19:54,478 --> 00:19:57,158
Speaker 3: The fact that back in the day, like ninety three

450
00:19:57,318 --> 00:20:00,238
Speaker 3: ninety four was considered gas and I know there's different

451
00:20:00,278 --> 00:20:02,758
Speaker 3: ways of measuring it based on different guns and whatever.

452
00:20:02,838 --> 00:20:05,438
Speaker 3: But all of a sudden and this guy's getting turned around.

453
00:20:05,518 --> 00:20:08,358
Speaker 3: So I think he's his confidence has been nicked up

454
00:20:08,398 --> 00:20:11,878
Speaker 3: a little bit there, and thus he's taken a different avenue.

455
00:20:11,918 --> 00:20:14,598
Speaker 3: So the truth probably lies somewhere in the combination of

456
00:20:14,598 --> 00:20:17,038
Speaker 3: all those different reasons. But that's a big part of

457
00:20:17,038 --> 00:20:19,238
Speaker 3: the problem. He's lost some pretty big moments for them.

458
00:20:19,238 --> 00:20:21,318
Speaker 3: And then the thing that people don't talk about enough

459
00:20:21,318 --> 00:20:24,318
Speaker 3: for me is that the momentum lost when you lose

460
00:20:24,478 --> 00:20:27,278
Speaker 3: games like that, and how it compounds, and how it's

461
00:20:27,318 --> 00:20:29,358
Speaker 3: difficult to turn it around the next day and come

462
00:20:29,358 --> 00:20:31,838
Speaker 3: back and get back on a street. You have this

463
00:20:31,958 --> 00:20:35,078
Speaker 3: ability to kind of get hot and stay hot, and

464
00:20:35,118 --> 00:20:36,958
Speaker 3: you put yourself in a good position all night long,

465
00:20:36,998 --> 00:20:38,638
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden puff there it goes away,

466
00:20:39,038 --> 00:20:41,198
Speaker 3: and then it happens again a day or two later.

467
00:20:41,598 --> 00:20:45,838
Speaker 3: That's kind of devastating stuff. So that's the ancillary component

468
00:20:45,878 --> 00:20:47,598
Speaker 3: to all this, and nobody ever talks about. And I

469
00:20:47,678 --> 00:20:49,998
Speaker 3: was really big on it, and that's why man I

470
00:20:50,118 --> 00:20:53,278
Speaker 3: always played every game to win every night, because momentum

471
00:20:53,278 --> 00:20:55,238
Speaker 3: gain or momentum loss matters.

472
00:20:55,318 --> 00:20:57,638
Speaker 4: It's something that cannot be measured. It's a field thing.

473
00:20:57,678 --> 00:21:01,078
Speaker 3: You walk in the clubhousekies the conversation comes more easily

474
00:21:01,078 --> 00:21:03,678
Speaker 3: with one another. There's more trepidation, you could tell, the

475
00:21:03,918 --> 00:21:06,678
Speaker 3: derbusness and voices or confidence and voices. These are the

476
00:21:06,718 --> 00:21:10,158
Speaker 3: kind of These are the unmeasurables that happen both ways,

477
00:21:10,238 --> 00:21:13,038
Speaker 3: the confident way and the non confident way. So that's

478
00:21:13,078 --> 00:21:15,838
Speaker 3: part of it. Because on the field of the atos

479
00:21:15,958 --> 00:21:18,318
Speaker 3: is getting hot. God, when this guy is playing right

480
00:21:18,398 --> 00:21:20,878
Speaker 3: or swinging the bat well interesting baty all you know

481
00:21:21,158 --> 00:21:23,998
Speaker 3: had a decent year for them. I've seen Nimmeldud good things,

482
00:21:23,998 --> 00:21:26,078
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of good going on there. But

483
00:21:26,358 --> 00:21:28,718
Speaker 3: I think for me, the primary problem has been the

484
00:21:28,758 --> 00:21:32,238
Speaker 3: breakdown in the bullpen, not holding leads or games that

485
00:21:32,438 --> 00:21:35,758
Speaker 3: prevent them from gaining the momentum that they so desperately need.

486
00:21:35,958 --> 00:21:38,358
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you brought up that the idea that

487
00:21:38,438 --> 00:21:41,598
Speaker 1: of momentum gained and loss because baseball is not at

488
00:21:41,678 --> 00:21:43,558
Speaker 1: the sketch you know, you don't shake it and get

489
00:21:43,558 --> 00:21:45,638
Speaker 1: a complete new start the next day. I can feel

490
00:21:45,638 --> 00:21:47,838
Speaker 1: it as I go around and see teams and talk

491
00:21:47,878 --> 00:21:50,678
Speaker 1: to managers and players and coaches. You know when a

492
00:21:50,758 --> 00:21:52,998
Speaker 1: team is in a good place and it is built

493
00:21:53,038 --> 00:21:55,478
Speaker 1: non confidence or lack thereof if you don't have it.

494
00:21:55,558 --> 00:21:57,518
Speaker 1: And that's my question for you, Joe, is when you

495
00:21:57,558 --> 00:22:00,518
Speaker 1: deal with someone like Hellsley are the Yankees and Aaron

496
00:22:00,518 --> 00:22:03,238
Speaker 1: Boone went through this with Devin Williams. Dave Roberts is

497
00:22:03,238 --> 00:22:06,558
Speaker 1: going through this with Tanner Scott. You've got guys who've

498
00:22:06,558 --> 00:22:10,078
Speaker 1: got great stuff right and a great track record, and

499
00:22:10,118 --> 00:22:13,398
Speaker 1: you keep throwing them out there in high leverage situations

500
00:22:13,478 --> 00:22:17,718
Speaker 1: because you are confident that that's the pitcher that they are.

501
00:22:18,558 --> 00:22:21,918
Speaker 1: But to me watching some of these guys, especially Hellsley,

502
00:22:22,518 --> 00:22:25,478
Speaker 1: at some point, you've got to say it's different. Right now,

503
00:22:25,798 --> 00:22:27,598
Speaker 1: we've got to back them up, get them out of

504
00:22:27,638 --> 00:22:30,958
Speaker 1: high leverage things. Work on something, whether it's pitch selection

505
00:22:31,238 --> 00:22:34,118
Speaker 1: or mechanics, whatever it might be, to try to get

506
00:22:34,158 --> 00:22:36,918
Speaker 1: him right instead of just putting these guys in the

507
00:22:36,998 --> 00:22:40,398
Speaker 1: same high leverage spots because they've done it in the past.

508
00:22:40,518 --> 00:22:42,358
Speaker 1: Sometimes you got to get off a guy, even if

509
00:22:42,358 --> 00:22:43,118
Speaker 1: it's temporarily.

510
00:22:43,718 --> 00:22:46,078
Speaker 3: I would go to the pitching coach and I would say,

511
00:22:46,158 --> 00:22:47,638
Speaker 3: we got to get him in, get him out, get

512
00:22:47,718 --> 00:22:49,318
Speaker 3: him in, get him out. That was my way of

513
00:22:49,398 --> 00:22:52,518
Speaker 3: rebuilding confidence a little bit easier. I think back in

514
00:22:52,598 --> 00:22:55,518
Speaker 3: the day when it was not a three batter minimum.

515
00:22:55,558 --> 00:22:58,038
Speaker 4: The three batter minimum kind of makes that more difficult.

516
00:22:58,158 --> 00:22:59,998
Speaker 3: So in today's game, I would look for a two

517
00:22:59,998 --> 00:23:02,918
Speaker 3: out situation and bring somebody in with two outs so

518
00:23:02,958 --> 00:23:04,478
Speaker 3: that he can get an smatch up.

519
00:23:04,518 --> 00:23:06,438
Speaker 4: Get him in, get him out, get that last out,

520
00:23:06,478 --> 00:23:07,318
Speaker 4: walk off the field.

521
00:23:07,358 --> 00:23:08,758
Speaker 3: I don't have to put him back out there the

522
00:23:08,798 --> 00:23:10,718
Speaker 3: next inning. I called him, get him in and get

523
00:23:10,758 --> 00:23:12,238
Speaker 3: him out, And that's exactly what I would say to

524
00:23:12,318 --> 00:23:14,678
Speaker 3: my pitching coach, and for me, there was a like

525
00:23:14,718 --> 00:23:16,478
Speaker 3: I said, an easier matchup. Now, of course if he

526
00:23:16,478 --> 00:23:18,118
Speaker 3: does get the first guy out when he comes in,

527
00:23:18,958 --> 00:23:21,758
Speaker 3: and I'd prefer to be like with nobody on if possible,

528
00:23:21,838 --> 00:23:23,998
Speaker 3: or maybe just one guy on. But that was my

529
00:23:24,118 --> 00:23:26,918
Speaker 3: method of rebuilding confidence with a relief pitcher that was

530
00:23:26,918 --> 00:23:29,278
Speaker 3: struggling a good guy or any guy, but especially a

531
00:23:29,318 --> 00:23:31,478
Speaker 3: good guy. So I'd like to get him and get

532
00:23:31,518 --> 00:23:33,718
Speaker 3: him out. And that's what I would suggest, because if

533
00:23:33,758 --> 00:23:35,918
Speaker 3: you keep putting himTo the leverage moments in it, man,

534
00:23:35,958 --> 00:23:37,518
Speaker 3: you could just see it in the face. Devin Williams

535
00:23:37,558 --> 00:23:39,718
Speaker 3: have been watching it all year and I think he's

536
00:23:39,718 --> 00:23:41,678
Speaker 3: full and everybody. Once in a while he has somewhat

537
00:23:41,678 --> 00:23:44,038
Speaker 3: of a clean inning, but it's not really clean. I

538
00:23:44,038 --> 00:23:47,198
Speaker 3: don't like his armstroke. I don't know this is analytically.

539
00:23:47,198 --> 00:23:49,238
Speaker 3: I'd love to see the breakdown of his release point

540
00:23:49,238 --> 00:23:51,438
Speaker 3: compared to now and in the past, and like the

541
00:23:51,678 --> 00:23:53,478
Speaker 3: arm speed at the point of release. Things like that

542
00:23:53,518 --> 00:23:56,038
Speaker 3: are the things that to me, it's like a non

543
00:23:56,078 --> 00:23:59,198
Speaker 3: committed golf swinger. Just everything's being guided or pushed or aimed.

544
00:23:59,438 --> 00:24:01,358
Speaker 3: That's what I see with guys that are off that

545
00:24:01,438 --> 00:24:03,558
Speaker 3: are good, but are not good at the very moment.

546
00:24:03,638 --> 00:24:05,598
Speaker 3: So I would suggest get him in, get him out.

547
00:24:05,598 --> 00:24:08,038
Speaker 3: Look for those moments. I know you well, we might

548
00:24:08,078 --> 00:24:09,758
Speaker 3: be wasting him with just one out in the seventh,

549
00:24:09,758 --> 00:24:11,398
Speaker 3: and you know you're not. You're trying to build this

550
00:24:11,438 --> 00:24:14,598
Speaker 3: confidence up so that the next couple times out the guy.

551
00:24:14,878 --> 00:24:16,878
Speaker 3: It's really cool when you get the last out of

552
00:24:16,918 --> 00:24:19,198
Speaker 3: an inning and you walk into the dugout and you

553
00:24:19,238 --> 00:24:19,958
Speaker 3: sit back down.

554
00:24:20,158 --> 00:24:21,238
Speaker 4: You know your day's over.

555
00:24:21,518 --> 00:24:23,918
Speaker 3: That deep breath shows up, and then you go inside,

556
00:24:23,958 --> 00:24:26,038
Speaker 3: ice down whatever you need to do, and then your

557
00:24:26,078 --> 00:24:28,038
Speaker 3: confidence going to the next day is much greater.

558
00:24:28,438 --> 00:24:31,158
Speaker 1: By the way, great call on Devin Williams checking the

559
00:24:31,238 --> 00:24:34,958
Speaker 1: numbers here. His arm angle has dropped for a fifth

560
00:24:35,038 --> 00:24:37,958
Speaker 1: consecutive year. He's gone from a thirty one degree angle

561
00:24:37,998 --> 00:24:40,078
Speaker 1: to a twenty one degree angle. I mean, I know

562
00:24:40,278 --> 00:24:42,518
Speaker 1: understand he's a side spin guy, he wants to work

563
00:24:42,558 --> 00:24:45,238
Speaker 1: around the baseball, but that tells you he's getting even

564
00:24:45,518 --> 00:24:47,318
Speaker 1: lower on that baseball.

565
00:24:47,758 --> 00:24:49,878
Speaker 2: Good point there with your own eyes.

566
00:24:49,918 --> 00:24:51,678
Speaker 4: I love that, Joe. Yeah. Yeah.

567
00:24:51,718 --> 00:24:54,358
Speaker 1: One other point of the Mets, because it turns out

568
00:24:54,358 --> 00:24:57,278
Speaker 1: their deadline work really not that good. Hell's the big

569
00:24:57,318 --> 00:25:00,278
Speaker 1: pickup of the bullpen has been a zero and Cedric

570
00:25:00,398 --> 00:25:02,518
Speaker 1: Mullins a big pickup for centerfield man.

571
00:25:02,598 --> 00:25:04,478
Speaker 2: He's been bad for the New York Mets.

572
00:25:04,518 --> 00:25:07,758
Speaker 1: His lash line one seventy four, two eighty four, two

573
00:25:07,958 --> 00:25:11,038
Speaker 1: seventy two. Slug to meet Joe. He's a non player

574
00:25:11,158 --> 00:25:13,798
Speaker 1: right now. The defense is not good. He can run

575
00:25:13,838 --> 00:25:16,158
Speaker 1: it down, but he doesn't really throw well. And against

576
00:25:16,158 --> 00:25:19,478
Speaker 1: Philadelphia Monday night, Mets are down one nothing. Fifth inning,

577
00:25:19,918 --> 00:25:23,678
Speaker 1: leadoff runner gets on base, Brett Baty, Mallins tries to bunt. Now,

578
00:25:23,678 --> 00:25:25,318
Speaker 1: I don't know whether that was from the bunt from

579
00:25:25,398 --> 00:25:28,198
Speaker 1: the venture or not, but this is Mullins batting against

580
00:25:28,238 --> 00:25:31,398
Speaker 1: Aaron Nolan the fifth inning of a one nothing game.

581
00:25:31,798 --> 00:25:33,198
Speaker 2: That's I don't understand.

582
00:25:33,238 --> 00:25:35,358
Speaker 1: The top of the lineup is coming around, but that

583
00:25:35,398 --> 00:25:38,238
Speaker 1: should not be a bunt situation. In the fifth inning,

584
00:25:38,598 --> 00:25:42,758
Speaker 1: first pitch pops up with fastball, so there's an out.

585
00:25:42,918 --> 00:25:45,998
Speaker 1: Lindor on the second pitch he sees flies out and

586
00:25:45,998 --> 00:25:47,798
Speaker 1: then Brett Baty gets picked off first base.

587
00:25:48,118 --> 00:25:49,958
Speaker 2: So in a matter of three pitches, hitting over.

588
00:25:50,198 --> 00:25:52,598
Speaker 1: But what do you see with Cedric Mullins and and

589
00:25:52,638 --> 00:25:54,998
Speaker 1: the idea that you're get a butt in the fifth

590
00:25:55,078 --> 00:25:58,918
Speaker 1: inning in Philadelphia Mullins hitting against the right handed pitcher.

591
00:25:59,078 --> 00:26:01,078
Speaker 3: First of all, I like him, I've always liked him,

592
00:26:01,078 --> 00:26:02,878
Speaker 3: and I agree. I've been watching the whole thing and

593
00:26:02,878 --> 00:26:06,398
Speaker 3: it's been very difficult. And they're just like you said,

594
00:26:06,398 --> 00:26:09,438
Speaker 3: their acquisitions, really I thought, really good acquisitions are not

595
00:26:09,518 --> 00:26:10,078
Speaker 3: playing up.

596
00:26:09,958 --> 00:26:11,398
Speaker 4: To their capabilities right now.

597
00:26:11,398 --> 00:26:13,118
Speaker 3: Want to get here's another thing you talked about the

598
00:26:13,158 --> 00:26:15,838
Speaker 3: picture that's struggling guys like hitting that struggling like that.

599
00:26:15,878 --> 00:26:17,438
Speaker 3: And I know he's a veteran, but I had this

600
00:26:17,478 --> 00:26:19,998
Speaker 3: little thing I used to do with guys. Also, First

601
00:26:20,038 --> 00:26:22,998
Speaker 3: at bat, you take a strike, Second at bat, you

602
00:26:23,078 --> 00:26:25,718
Speaker 3: take a pitch. Third at bat, you're on your own

603
00:26:25,998 --> 00:26:27,998
Speaker 3: unless in those first two at batches are runner in

604
00:26:27,998 --> 00:26:30,798
Speaker 3: scoring quisition than Rock and roll. The point was a

605
00:26:30,798 --> 00:26:32,558
Speaker 3: lot of times I just don't think you're seeing the

606
00:26:32,598 --> 00:26:34,678
Speaker 3: ball well and you're a little bit too antsy, a

607
00:26:34,678 --> 00:26:36,478
Speaker 3: little bit like maybe overly aggressive.

608
00:26:36,638 --> 00:26:37,878
Speaker 4: I did it with Dallas mcsperrison.

609
00:26:37,878 --> 00:26:39,518
Speaker 3: I wasn't even the hitting coach at the time, but

610
00:26:39,638 --> 00:26:41,718
Speaker 3: Dallas was a really good prospect coming up with the

611
00:26:41,758 --> 00:26:45,078
Speaker 3: Angels and really didn't have a definitive planet home plate.

612
00:26:45,318 --> 00:26:47,158
Speaker 3: The interference would be and I didn't. I hate to

613
00:26:47,198 --> 00:26:49,718
Speaker 3: tell guys what to do, but I just a strong suggestion.

614
00:26:49,798 --> 00:26:52,558
Speaker 3: You're first at bat, get up there. Just take a strike.

615
00:26:52,638 --> 00:26:54,718
Speaker 3: So you're gonna get up there. You know, you don't,

616
00:26:54,758 --> 00:26:57,678
Speaker 3: don't concede anything, go through your normal routine. You look

617
00:26:57,718 --> 00:26:59,918
Speaker 3: like you're going to swing and then don't. And if

618
00:26:59,958 --> 00:27:02,038
Speaker 3: it's a strike, okay, you're ready to rock and roll.

619
00:27:02,118 --> 00:27:04,318
Speaker 3: It's ball one. I've taken the I'm taking the next

620
00:27:04,318 --> 00:27:06,678
Speaker 3: pitch until I get a strike. And this kind of

621
00:27:06,678 --> 00:27:09,118
Speaker 3: like settles you down a little bit. The biggest thing

622
00:27:09,238 --> 00:27:11,798
Speaker 3: is that probably the ball looks like ap to him

623
00:27:11,838 --> 00:27:14,158
Speaker 3: right now, or even a pink punk ball whatever. It's

624
00:27:14,158 --> 00:27:16,758
Speaker 3: just that small and it's that quick. You got to

625
00:27:16,798 --> 00:27:19,038
Speaker 3: slow it down. You got to focus on seeing the

626
00:27:19,038 --> 00:27:21,878
Speaker 3: ball first, and you got to think small and not big.

627
00:27:22,118 --> 00:27:24,398
Speaker 3: So I would do anything I possibly could to get

628
00:27:24,438 --> 00:27:28,078
Speaker 3: him in that mindset. And that's it. I mean, he's good,

629
00:27:28,398 --> 00:27:30,198
Speaker 3: he's good. I mean if he gets again. We talked

630
00:27:30,238 --> 00:27:32,918
Speaker 3: about confidence a moment ago. If he gets his confidence

631
00:27:32,918 --> 00:27:34,638
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, he's gonna be a big contributor

632
00:27:34,998 --> 00:27:37,598
Speaker 3: to what they're doing. But sometimes you got to create

633
00:27:37,638 --> 00:27:40,518
Speaker 3: a plan. How do I slow this down? How do

634
00:27:40,598 --> 00:27:42,078
Speaker 3: I get the ball? To see the ball big?

635
00:27:42,118 --> 00:27:42,318
Speaker 4: Again?

636
00:27:42,358 --> 00:27:44,638
Speaker 3: I used to y'all see it big, because I'll tell

637
00:27:44,638 --> 00:27:46,598
Speaker 3: you what. When that ball gets small, man, it is

638
00:27:46,718 --> 00:27:49,438
Speaker 3: on you in a blink of an eye, not even

639
00:27:49,478 --> 00:27:50,998
Speaker 3: the blink of an eye, and it's just in the

640
00:27:51,078 --> 00:27:53,678
Speaker 3: catcher's mid and you feel absolutely helpless.

641
00:27:53,958 --> 00:27:55,878
Speaker 2: Well, the New York Mets are, they're in trouble.

642
00:27:56,318 --> 00:27:59,078
Speaker 1: I still like their chances obviously to be a get

643
00:27:59,118 --> 00:28:02,358
Speaker 1: into the postseason, but they're at a point now where

644
00:28:02,398 --> 00:28:04,758
Speaker 1: Codai Sanga, who should be their ace in the minor leagues,

645
00:28:04,958 --> 00:28:07,918
Speaker 1: They've got a six man rotation with three rookies in there.

646
00:28:07,998 --> 00:28:11,358
Speaker 1: Three rookies in your rotation in September, trying to hang

647
00:28:11,398 --> 00:28:15,758
Speaker 1: on vicarious situation for me. We'll see how that plays out.

648
00:28:15,998 --> 00:28:18,918
Speaker 1: As far as the La Dodgers go, Joe. In the

649
00:28:18,998 --> 00:28:21,678
Speaker 1: last one hundred games, they're fifty one to forty nine.

650
00:28:22,078 --> 00:28:24,358
Speaker 1: They've not played really good baseball for a long time.

651
00:28:24,398 --> 00:28:26,918
Speaker 1: And to me, the biggest culprit is their bullpen. If

652
00:28:26,918 --> 00:28:29,598
Speaker 1: you look at the twelve teams in playoff position today,

653
00:28:29,718 --> 00:28:31,958
Speaker 1: the Dodgers have the worst bullpen. You break it down

654
00:28:31,998 --> 00:28:34,678
Speaker 1: any way, you want slugging decisions because they have a

655
00:28:34,718 --> 00:28:36,078
Speaker 1: lot of games decided the bullpen.

656
00:28:36,118 --> 00:28:38,118
Speaker 2: They're losing a lot of these games. Listen, they got

657
00:28:38,158 --> 00:28:39,198
Speaker 2: Alex Vesia back.

658
00:28:39,278 --> 00:28:41,558
Speaker 1: He's been a big key for them with that crazy

659
00:28:41,678 --> 00:28:44,158
Speaker 1: spin for seing fastball that he has, and Dave Roberts

660
00:28:44,158 --> 00:28:46,038
Speaker 1: goes to him a lot. But tell me what you

661
00:28:46,078 --> 00:28:48,678
Speaker 1: see the Dodgers where you think their bullpen is an

662
00:28:48,678 --> 00:28:50,878
Speaker 1: issue that will carry over into the postseason.

663
00:28:51,078 --> 00:28:52,918
Speaker 3: What happened the other night I was happening to I mean,

664
00:28:52,958 --> 00:28:55,238
Speaker 3: I'm watching the I guess I was watching the news,

665
00:28:55,238 --> 00:28:57,118
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, that little thing comes up,

666
00:28:57,158 --> 00:29:00,318
Speaker 3: no hitter. So I turned on the Dodger game, and

667
00:29:00,318 --> 00:29:02,838
Speaker 3: you have a Moto is just shoving, I mean absolutely

668
00:29:02,878 --> 00:29:06,158
Speaker 3: in command with the reels, and I'm watching he gets

669
00:29:06,158 --> 00:29:08,598
Speaker 3: too quick outs in the night that oh my god.

670
00:29:08,798 --> 00:29:10,518
Speaker 3: And then he did I don't know why, but he

671
00:29:10,558 --> 00:29:12,318
Speaker 3: throws a breaking ball middle and I don't think he

672
00:29:12,398 --> 00:29:13,878
Speaker 3: tried to throw it there, and all of a sudden

673
00:29:14,518 --> 00:29:17,718
Speaker 3: home run, which his name the kid Holiday, the Holiday

674
00:29:17,718 --> 00:29:20,798
Speaker 3: app it's the homer to write barely gets over it's

675
00:29:20,798 --> 00:29:23,558
Speaker 3: a homer. Here comes training and everybody's having a love

676
00:29:23,638 --> 00:29:26,518
Speaker 3: fest on the mound, which I don't like. And then

677
00:29:26,838 --> 00:29:28,798
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, here we go with basic,

678
00:29:28,878 --> 00:29:29,838
Speaker 3: basic base hit.

679
00:29:30,038 --> 00:29:30,518
Speaker 4: Game over.

680
00:29:30,558 --> 00:29:33,718
Speaker 3: But I'll defend a training and he did have that

681
00:29:33,758 --> 00:29:36,118
Speaker 3: one dude struck out. I can't remember who the hitter was, Umpart,

682
00:29:36,238 --> 00:29:39,958
Speaker 3: absolutely blue or cult strike three pitch. However, that happens,

683
00:29:39,998 --> 00:29:41,598
Speaker 3: and you got to move on from there. But the

684
00:29:41,678 --> 00:29:44,198
Speaker 3: fact that they lost that game was like, that really

685
00:29:44,278 --> 00:29:47,238
Speaker 3: was telling. I thought, So, you know, they're coming off

686
00:29:47,318 --> 00:29:50,078
Speaker 3: like this glamorous season, the Hollywood season. They won, they won,

687
00:29:50,158 --> 00:29:52,278
Speaker 3: they won, and you know, that's the first real world

688
00:29:52,318 --> 00:29:55,998
Speaker 3: series victory. The one the trunk haaty year not so much.

689
00:29:56,078 --> 00:29:58,198
Speaker 3: And so I don't know, I think there's a little

690
00:29:58,198 --> 00:30:00,318
Speaker 3: bit of that still going on. There's a little bit

691
00:30:00,358 --> 00:30:02,478
Speaker 3: of I don't want to say, resting on your laurels,

692
00:30:02,518 --> 00:30:04,998
Speaker 3: but there's a safe there's kind of satiated in a sense,

693
00:30:05,038 --> 00:30:06,878
Speaker 3: and they haven't really pushed to the level that they

694
00:30:06,878 --> 00:30:08,438
Speaker 3: have in the pastor we're lying on a lot of

695
00:30:08,478 --> 00:30:11,038
Speaker 3: young players too. Man, there's a lot of no namers

696
00:30:11,038 --> 00:30:13,478
Speaker 3: out there that are cutting their teeths. So from the

697
00:30:13,518 --> 00:30:16,798
Speaker 3: Dodger's perspective as an organization, it would consider that okay,

698
00:30:16,838 --> 00:30:18,878
Speaker 3: like the fact that we're just okay right now, but

699
00:30:18,918 --> 00:30:20,798
Speaker 3: we're relying on a lot of young players that are

700
00:30:21,398 --> 00:30:24,198
Speaker 3: really starting to possibly turn the corner an end are

701
00:30:24,198 --> 00:30:27,158
Speaker 3: our future. So there's some things to like there too,

702
00:30:27,678 --> 00:30:30,478
Speaker 3: in spite of their record, But overall, they are who

703
00:30:30,478 --> 00:30:32,358
Speaker 3: they are, like the fifty one to forty nine, that's

704
00:30:32,398 --> 00:30:34,918
Speaker 3: who they are right now, and we'll see. It's got

705
00:30:34,998 --> 00:30:36,918
Speaker 3: to that point if they got to switch, if they

706
00:30:36,998 --> 00:30:38,878
Speaker 3: got the Jimmy Edmunds switch, they need to turn it

707
00:30:38,918 --> 00:30:41,278
Speaker 3: on right now because you just can't wait till the

708
00:30:41,278 --> 00:30:43,318
Speaker 3: playoffs and all of a sudden, I think you're gonna turn.

709
00:30:43,758 --> 00:30:45,638
Speaker 3: I think they need to turn up the dial right now.

710
00:30:45,678 --> 00:30:48,478
Speaker 3: They've got to get really focused and almost among each

711
00:30:48,478 --> 00:30:50,798
Speaker 3: other talking about listen, let's we got to finish this

712
00:30:50,878 --> 00:30:52,718
Speaker 3: strong and get ready for the playoffs, because if they

713
00:30:52,758 --> 00:30:55,158
Speaker 3: go into the rest of September in the very mediocre

714
00:30:55,198 --> 00:30:56,758
Speaker 3: away which they have, I don't think it's going to

715
00:30:56,798 --> 00:30:57,358
Speaker 3: happen for them.

716
00:30:57,518 --> 00:31:00,558
Speaker 1: It's a great point, Joe, because I think that's what

717
00:31:00,598 --> 00:31:03,078
Speaker 1: they're doing. I think they're relying on the fact that

718
00:31:03,078 --> 00:31:05,558
Speaker 1: they are battle to they know how to respond in

719
00:31:05,598 --> 00:31:06,318
Speaker 1: big moments.

720
00:31:06,358 --> 00:31:08,878
Speaker 2: Back against the wall. Their talent is going to show.

721
00:31:09,158 --> 00:31:11,478
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying they're not trying, but I think

722
00:31:11,518 --> 00:31:13,598
Speaker 1: the sense of urgency they have not played with that

723
00:31:13,718 --> 00:31:16,438
Speaker 1: this year. I will tell you I saw the Yankees

724
00:31:16,478 --> 00:31:18,438
Speaker 1: go through this in two thousand. I mean, they were

725
00:31:18,638 --> 00:31:22,318
Speaker 1: terrible in September, and every time they got into a

726
00:31:22,318 --> 00:31:24,838
Speaker 1: big spot in the postseason, they would find a way

727
00:31:24,878 --> 00:31:25,718
Speaker 1: to win a game.

728
00:31:26,198 --> 00:31:26,918
Speaker 2: It can happen.

729
00:31:26,998 --> 00:31:29,198
Speaker 1: I know people don't want to hear that that you

730
00:31:29,278 --> 00:31:32,518
Speaker 1: can't turn it on and off like a switch, but

731
00:31:32,678 --> 00:31:35,558
Speaker 1: it can happen. When you talk about teams, especially teams

732
00:31:35,638 --> 00:31:38,278
Speaker 1: like those Yankees were in two thousand and this Dodger

733
00:31:38,318 --> 00:31:41,118
Speaker 1: team that has so much experience, it had been in

734
00:31:41,238 --> 00:31:45,918
Speaker 1: so many different situations and predicaments that they can basically

735
00:31:45,998 --> 00:31:49,078
Speaker 1: will their way and especially talent, their way out of it.

736
00:31:49,158 --> 00:31:52,278
Speaker 1: I just think the thing to watch with the Dodgers now,

737
00:31:52,558 --> 00:31:54,558
Speaker 1: they're not as good of a defensive team as they've

738
00:31:54,558 --> 00:31:55,158
Speaker 1: been in the past.

739
00:31:55,398 --> 00:31:58,718
Speaker 2: That is clear to me, and the bullpen is an issue.

740
00:31:58,758 --> 00:32:01,358
Speaker 1: I don't think Dave Roberts right now has a clear

741
00:32:01,518 --> 00:32:04,158
Speaker 1: path to an endgame here where he wants to go,

742
00:32:04,638 --> 00:32:06,478
Speaker 1: and he's got the arms to do it. But again,

743
00:32:06,518 --> 00:32:09,398
Speaker 1: a guy like Tanner Scott scares me right now. He's

744
00:32:09,398 --> 00:32:13,438
Speaker 1: another two pitch guy. If you can't command both pitches

745
00:32:13,478 --> 00:32:16,198
Speaker 1: and people narrow it down. Especially his fastball has become

746
00:32:16,358 --> 00:32:19,918
Speaker 1: much more hittable this year. Stuff looks good, track record

747
00:32:19,998 --> 00:32:22,278
Speaker 1: looks great, but the way he's pitching right now would

748
00:32:22,318 --> 00:32:23,118
Speaker 1: scare me a little bit.

749
00:32:23,318 --> 00:32:23,838
Speaker 4: Absolutely.

750
00:32:23,838 --> 00:32:27,078
Speaker 3: And as a manager, when you're in this position, you

751
00:32:27,278 --> 00:32:30,398
Speaker 3: like absolutes. You have your your your formulaic way of

752
00:32:30,438 --> 00:32:32,718
Speaker 3: winning a baseball game. Guys that you could count on

753
00:32:32,758 --> 00:32:35,998
Speaker 3: your even orhead guys are even or ahead guys, and

754
00:32:35,998 --> 00:32:38,878
Speaker 3: you're not ambivalent with that. They're not ambivalent. They're they're

755
00:32:38,918 --> 00:32:40,918
Speaker 3: going to show up every night or almost every night.

756
00:32:41,398 --> 00:32:43,638
Speaker 3: It's like a ninety five or ninety seven percent of

757
00:32:43,678 --> 00:32:44,158
Speaker 3: the time you know.

758
00:32:44,158 --> 00:32:44,798
Speaker 4: What to expect.

759
00:32:44,798 --> 00:32:48,758
Speaker 3: But when you don't, Wow, that's very unsettling from a

760
00:32:48,798 --> 00:32:51,798
Speaker 3: manager's perspective. Of course, from the team and organizational perspective,

761
00:32:51,798 --> 00:32:54,558
Speaker 3: it's even more insettling. But being the person having to

762
00:32:54,558 --> 00:32:57,798
Speaker 3: make these choices when you don't know what to expect, Wow,

763
00:32:58,078 --> 00:33:00,958
Speaker 3: is that difficult. It is so difficult, And even with

764
00:33:01,038 --> 00:33:03,438
Speaker 3: some tried and true kind of dudes, it's it makes you.

765
00:33:03,518 --> 00:33:06,758
Speaker 3: It makes your job like extraordinarily difficult. And again with

766
00:33:06,838 --> 00:33:09,598
Speaker 3: the three batter minimum, it's becomes compounded when you can't

767
00:33:09,598 --> 00:33:11,958
Speaker 3: match up again, like just even if it any begins

768
00:33:11,998 --> 00:33:13,958
Speaker 3: and the right he gets the first dot. Here comes

769
00:33:13,958 --> 00:33:16,158
Speaker 3: a lefty and the lefties Tanner Scott and they're not

770
00:33:16,198 --> 00:33:17,878
Speaker 3: going to pinch it. I want to bring Tanner Scott

771
00:33:17,918 --> 00:33:19,598
Speaker 3: in to face this one lefty and he gets him out.

772
00:33:19,598 --> 00:33:22,078
Speaker 3: Here comes a righty afterwards, boom boom. I get these

773
00:33:22,078 --> 00:33:24,078
Speaker 3: guys in and out of games, and I'm able to

774
00:33:24,478 --> 00:33:26,238
Speaker 3: build up their confidence again slowly.

775
00:33:26,278 --> 00:33:28,958
Speaker 4: It just takes these little micro moments to.

776
00:33:28,558 --> 00:33:30,678
Speaker 3: Put us in the right frame of mind, where it

777
00:33:30,718 --> 00:33:32,718
Speaker 3: takes the little micro moments to put us in a

778
00:33:32,758 --> 00:33:35,518
Speaker 3: bad frame of mind, and it just it becomes really

779
00:33:35,558 --> 00:33:37,078
Speaker 3: a contagion that doesn't want.

780
00:33:36,958 --> 00:33:40,358
Speaker 4: To go away. So that's the one part.

781
00:33:40,078 --> 00:33:43,598
Speaker 3: About the bullpen manipulation that I would miss when I

782
00:33:43,638 --> 00:33:47,118
Speaker 3: got guys that are really not being themselves. The three

783
00:33:47,158 --> 00:33:50,718
Speaker 3: batter minimum puts me at a disadvantage of trying to

784
00:33:50,758 --> 00:33:53,638
Speaker 3: get them well by really slotting them on a one

785
00:33:53,758 --> 00:33:55,838
Speaker 3: or maybe two guys that I feel really good about

786
00:33:55,838 --> 00:33:59,198
Speaker 3: them with because guess of that third guy and it

787
00:33:59,278 --> 00:34:01,078
Speaker 3: might be a bad matchup, and you know it.

788
00:34:01,158 --> 00:34:02,758
Speaker 4: You know what going into it. Man, you look, you

789
00:34:02,798 --> 00:34:04,998
Speaker 4: got you always right now you're working little pods.

790
00:34:05,038 --> 00:34:06,998
Speaker 3: You don't just work. You don't put like one name

791
00:34:07,038 --> 00:34:08,678
Speaker 3: after a hitter's name. Now you got to work in

792
00:34:08,758 --> 00:34:11,558
Speaker 3: pods of three. Every time you set up your bullpen

793
00:34:11,638 --> 00:34:14,398
Speaker 3: before the game, it's always it's a threesome. So these

794
00:34:14,438 --> 00:34:16,678
Speaker 3: are the kind of things that I think a manager

795
00:34:16,758 --> 00:34:17,878
Speaker 3: would be missing right now.

796
00:34:18,438 --> 00:34:19,438
Speaker 4: I think as.

797
00:34:19,358 --> 00:34:22,678
Speaker 3: The inability the rules get in the way right now

798
00:34:22,718 --> 00:34:24,278
Speaker 3: of trying to fix somebody a little bit.

799
00:34:24,358 --> 00:34:28,278
Speaker 1: Quicker Pennant raise baseball always exciting, so much urgency. He

800
00:34:28,398 --> 00:34:31,038
Speaker 1: can't rely on the old adage that it's a long season,

801
00:34:31,078 --> 00:34:31,758
Speaker 1: it's a marathon.

802
00:34:31,798 --> 00:34:33,598
Speaker 2: It's it's urgent time. It's fun to watch.

803
00:34:34,238 --> 00:34:35,958
Speaker 1: I guess, un listen, you're a Mets fan these days,

804
00:34:35,998 --> 00:34:37,718
Speaker 1: and it might be a little difficult to watch.

805
00:34:37,798 --> 00:34:40,278
Speaker 2: But I've a quick break. We'll get to this. A

806
00:34:40,318 --> 00:34:41,198
Speaker 2: bit of sad news.

807
00:34:41,278 --> 00:34:44,318
Speaker 1: We lost one of the great big baseball lives who

808
00:34:44,358 --> 00:34:48,438
Speaker 1: I think has been underappreciated across his career at baseball.

809
00:34:48,518 --> 00:34:49,838
Speaker 2: We'll talk about that next.

810
00:34:50,158 --> 00:35:12,758
Speaker 5: On the Book of Joe.

811
00:35:03,198 --> 00:35:05,958
Speaker 2: Welcome Back, to the book of Joe Joe Madden.

812
00:35:06,038 --> 00:35:08,638
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you ever came across your travels

813
00:35:08,838 --> 00:35:12,318
Speaker 1: Davy Johnson, manager famously of the world champion New York

814
00:35:12,398 --> 00:35:14,918
Speaker 1: Mets of nineteen eighty six, but a long distinguished playing

815
00:35:15,078 --> 00:35:16,038
Speaker 1: and managing career.

816
00:35:16,078 --> 00:35:17,318
Speaker 2: But he seems like you're kind of guy.

817
00:35:17,478 --> 00:35:19,238
Speaker 4: Yeah, I came across Dave. You actually got in a

818
00:35:19,238 --> 00:35:20,438
Speaker 4: pretty good argument with him.

819
00:35:21,078 --> 00:35:21,998
Speaker 2: I'm not surprised.

820
00:35:22,158 --> 00:35:23,998
Speaker 4: Yeah. It was in Washington.

821
00:35:24,038 --> 00:35:27,398
Speaker 3: We're playing the Nationals, still with the Rays, and Joel

822
00:35:27,398 --> 00:35:29,638
Speaker 3: Prault was pitching for US, who had pitched for Washington

823
00:35:29,678 --> 00:35:32,998
Speaker 3: the year before, and Davy called him out on pine

824
00:35:33,038 --> 00:35:36,278
Speaker 3: tar and so the Empires go out there, and of

825
00:35:36,318 --> 00:35:39,638
Speaker 3: course it was true, and so Joel not only gets

826
00:35:39,718 --> 00:35:42,718
Speaker 3: kicked out of the game, everything's confiscated, and then he

827
00:35:42,918 --> 00:35:44,838
Speaker 3: gets suspended.

828
00:35:44,358 --> 00:35:45,438
Speaker 4: For eight games after that.

829
00:35:45,478 --> 00:35:48,118
Speaker 3: But as this is happening, as the Empires are out there,

830
00:35:48,158 --> 00:35:50,518
Speaker 3: I kind of took a walk towards their dugout during

831
00:35:50,558 --> 00:35:53,238
Speaker 3: the game, and I'm kind of screaming in their dugout

832
00:35:53,318 --> 00:35:55,678
Speaker 3: because my problem with the whole thing was the fact

833
00:35:55,758 --> 00:35:57,998
Speaker 3: that Joe had just pitched the other year before, so

834
00:35:58,038 --> 00:35:59,958
Speaker 3: of course they had all this insight intel they had,

835
00:36:00,278 --> 00:36:04,438
Speaker 3: so don't act like you're doing something spectacular. It's almost

836
00:36:04,478 --> 00:36:06,838
Speaker 3: like the time Frank Robinson called Brendan Donnelly on it

837
00:36:07,238 --> 00:36:10,078
Speaker 3: in Anaheim. I got kind of upset about that too.

838
00:36:10,118 --> 00:36:12,358
Speaker 3: I wasn't the manager though, so that's the one that

839
00:36:12,518 --> 00:36:14,798
Speaker 3: was my one run in with him. Afterwards, I said

840
00:36:14,798 --> 00:36:16,998
Speaker 3: some things, probably would like to retract it, and he

841
00:36:17,038 --> 00:36:17,438
Speaker 3: came back.

842
00:36:17,478 --> 00:36:20,558
Speaker 4: He called me a weird woos. A weird wos was.

843
00:36:20,558 --> 00:36:23,158
Speaker 3: What appeared in the paper the next day, which I

844
00:36:23,198 --> 00:36:26,878
Speaker 3: absolutely loved anyway. And Marcel Lashman worked with him with

845
00:36:26,958 --> 00:36:29,518
Speaker 3: the USA teams, and Marshall loved him, and I know

846
00:36:29,558 --> 00:36:31,158
Speaker 3: the guys that played for him loved him also.

847
00:36:31,238 --> 00:36:32,038
Speaker 4: I just didn't get to.

848
00:36:32,518 --> 00:36:34,918
Speaker 3: Know him well, but I know would have been my

849
00:36:35,038 --> 00:36:37,438
Speaker 3: kind of manager. What he did with the was eighty

850
00:36:37,478 --> 00:36:40,758
Speaker 3: five mets it. It was kind of like a computerized

851
00:36:40,798 --> 00:36:42,958
Speaker 3: version of a manager back then. He was, you know,

852
00:36:43,038 --> 00:36:45,158
Speaker 3: like the earl weaver of the platooning kind of a thing.

853
00:36:45,238 --> 00:36:48,318
Speaker 3: Gene Mack with all of his intellect, and Davy Johnson

854
00:36:48,358 --> 00:36:50,758
Speaker 3: I think stood out a little bit and in regards

855
00:36:50,798 --> 00:36:53,278
Speaker 3: to how he did things and the positive nature of

856
00:36:53,358 --> 00:36:54,518
Speaker 3: the way he did do things.

857
00:36:54,958 --> 00:36:55,878
Speaker 4: I just didn't know him.

858
00:36:55,918 --> 00:36:57,678
Speaker 3: I didn't get to know him well, but I did

859
00:36:57,678 --> 00:36:59,838
Speaker 3: have that one run in with him. So yeah, it's

860
00:37:00,358 --> 00:37:03,118
Speaker 3: and I'm reading the comments from the former Met players.

861
00:37:03,118 --> 00:37:06,198
Speaker 3: They love this guy. They absolutely love this guy. And

862
00:37:06,238 --> 00:37:09,118
Speaker 3: that screams at me too. So I had one difficult

863
00:37:09,198 --> 00:37:11,318
Speaker 3: moment with him, but I laughed about it, and I'm

864
00:37:11,318 --> 00:37:12,078
Speaker 3: sure he did too.

865
00:37:12,238 --> 00:37:14,678
Speaker 4: It is a tough loss. He's he eighty two years old.

866
00:37:14,878 --> 00:37:17,718
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's one of only three people and the others

867
00:37:17,718 --> 00:37:20,958
Speaker 1: are Joe Tory and Dusty Baker who had more than

868
00:37:20,958 --> 00:37:22,998
Speaker 1: one hundred home runs in the big leagues and then

869
00:37:23,158 --> 00:37:26,758
Speaker 1: was three hundred games over five hundred as a manager

870
00:37:26,918 --> 00:37:30,518
Speaker 1: in the big leagues. Now, he is the eighth highest

871
00:37:30,558 --> 00:37:33,358
Speaker 1: winning percentage of all managers who managed at least two

872
00:37:33,358 --> 00:37:35,718
Speaker 1: thousand games in the big leagues. You know, everybody in

873
00:37:35,758 --> 00:37:37,358
Speaker 1: the top ten is in the Hall of Fame except

874
00:37:37,438 --> 00:37:38,198
Speaker 1: Davy Johnson.

875
00:37:38,438 --> 00:37:39,078
Speaker 2: He just won.

876
00:37:39,558 --> 00:37:41,918
Speaker 1: He was the first, besides winning the World Series and

877
00:37:41,998 --> 00:37:44,478
Speaker 1: still the last Mets manager to win the World Series,

878
00:37:44,918 --> 00:37:47,918
Speaker 1: the first manager to bring the Washington Nationals to the postseason,

879
00:37:48,038 --> 00:37:50,678
Speaker 1: and that was the year with Stephen Strasburg shutdown, so

880
00:37:50,718 --> 00:37:52,358
Speaker 1: he didn't have his ace and the loss of the

881
00:37:52,358 --> 00:37:53,438
Speaker 1: Cardinals in the DS.

882
00:37:54,038 --> 00:37:55,998
Speaker 2: He's the lost Baltimore Orioles.

883
00:37:55,598 --> 00:37:59,158
Speaker 1: Manager to take his team and win games in the ALCS.

884
00:37:59,278 --> 00:38:01,998
Speaker 1: He's the last Cincinnati Reds manager to win around in

885
00:38:02,038 --> 00:38:06,278
Speaker 1: the postseason. Everywhere he went won. And especially Joe, that

886
00:38:06,358 --> 00:38:11,878
Speaker 1: New York Mets team, I was there, full of just characters, personality,

887
00:38:12,358 --> 00:38:13,278
Speaker 1: and that was Davy.

888
00:38:13,398 --> 00:38:14,918
Speaker 2: They took on his swagger.

889
00:38:14,998 --> 00:38:16,638
Speaker 1: Now, there are a bunch of confident guys, and they

890
00:38:16,678 --> 00:38:20,198
Speaker 1: would have had swagger anyway, but Davy allowed them to

891
00:38:20,358 --> 00:38:23,478
Speaker 1: play that way, to be that way, to live hard

892
00:38:23,598 --> 00:38:25,598
Speaker 1: off the field. Day didn't care as long as you

893
00:38:25,638 --> 00:38:27,758
Speaker 1: showed up on time. And with that Mets team, that

894
00:38:27,798 --> 00:38:29,878
Speaker 1: was a problem sometimes. Don't get me wrong. It sounds

895
00:38:29,918 --> 00:38:31,518
Speaker 1: like a simple rule, but it was tough for them

896
00:38:31,518 --> 00:38:33,478
Speaker 1: to make to get to the ballpark on time and

897
00:38:33,558 --> 00:38:34,278
Speaker 1: to play hard.

898
00:38:34,478 --> 00:38:36,158
Speaker 2: They had no problem doing that.

899
00:38:36,358 --> 00:38:39,278
Speaker 1: Joe, that was one of, if not the best rally

900
00:38:39,318 --> 00:38:42,198
Speaker 1: teams I've ever seen. There was no quit in that team.

901
00:38:42,198 --> 00:38:44,478
Speaker 1: And it wasn't just you know, Game six of the

902
00:38:44,478 --> 00:38:47,278
Speaker 1: World Series against Boston, they played that way.

903
00:38:47,278 --> 00:38:49,318
Speaker 2: I called it. There are a bunch of middle aged marauders.

904
00:38:49,358 --> 00:38:51,158
Speaker 1: The Mets would come into town, they wanted to drink

905
00:38:51,158 --> 00:38:53,198
Speaker 1: your beer and kick your butt.

906
00:38:53,638 --> 00:38:55,038
Speaker 2: They get out of town and go on to the

907
00:38:55,078 --> 00:38:55,838
Speaker 2: next conquest.

908
00:38:55,878 --> 00:38:59,198
Speaker 1: They had this way of playing that reflected Davy's confidence.

909
00:38:59,718 --> 00:39:02,478
Speaker 1: I have not been around too many guys, Joe who

910
00:39:02,958 --> 00:39:06,638
Speaker 1: wore their confidence as openly as Davy Johnson. You know,

911
00:39:06,678 --> 00:39:08,798
Speaker 1: I was a young reporter back then covering the Mets,

912
00:39:08,878 --> 00:39:11,758
Speaker 1: and that Bob Klappish was another young beat reporter, and

913
00:39:11,838 --> 00:39:14,718
Speaker 1: Davy used to always tell us because we loved asking

914
00:39:14,798 --> 00:39:17,158
Speaker 1: him questions, not just to learn about the game, but

915
00:39:17,238 --> 00:39:19,558
Speaker 1: we wanted to know what he was thinking. As you mentioned,

916
00:39:19,598 --> 00:39:22,838
Speaker 1: he was a mathematics major in college, one of the

917
00:39:22,838 --> 00:39:26,158
Speaker 1: first managers to use a computer. Didn't rely on it

918
00:39:26,238 --> 00:39:29,878
Speaker 1: to make decisions, but used it to inform decisions. Davy

919
00:39:29,998 --> 00:39:31,838
Speaker 1: would say to us so many times. If he said

920
00:39:31,838 --> 00:39:33,558
Speaker 1: it once, he must have said it a hundred times.

921
00:39:33,758 --> 00:39:38,038
Speaker 1: You guys, you know just enough about baseball to be dangerous.

922
00:39:38,358 --> 00:39:41,438
Speaker 1: But he would welcome our questions after the game. He

923
00:39:41,478 --> 00:39:44,358
Speaker 1: had the thickest skin I've ever seen. When the Mets

924
00:39:44,358 --> 00:39:47,638
Speaker 1: fired him in nineteen ninety, essentially told me, you know what,

925
00:39:47,678 --> 00:39:50,318
Speaker 1: if the Mets are dumb enough to fire me, then

926
00:39:50,358 --> 00:39:54,078
Speaker 1: I was working for the wrong team anyway, just tremendously

927
00:39:54,318 --> 00:39:56,718
Speaker 1: confident in what he knew and what he did.

928
00:39:56,918 --> 00:39:57,838
Speaker 4: Yeah, that all suns.

929
00:39:57,878 --> 00:40:00,398
Speaker 3: I mean the word that jumps is charismatic. I mean

930
00:40:00,438 --> 00:40:03,518
Speaker 3: that's that whole team and him and Davy himself. Now,

931
00:40:03,998 --> 00:40:06,198
Speaker 3: after hearing all this, I wish I'd spoke to him

932
00:40:06,238 --> 00:40:08,398
Speaker 3: more often. I didn't do that enough. But that's all

933
00:40:08,518 --> 00:40:11,998
Speaker 3: really desirable traits did not get in the way of

934
00:40:12,038 --> 00:40:13,958
Speaker 3: the greatness of the Mets. I mean, I know there's

935
00:40:13,998 --> 00:40:16,038
Speaker 3: a lot of guys managers of that era that would

936
00:40:16,038 --> 00:40:20,158
Speaker 3: have tried to compromise that natural creativity of those players

937
00:40:20,238 --> 00:40:23,318
Speaker 3: and try to rein them in, create more discipline here,

938
00:40:23,438 --> 00:40:24,558
Speaker 3: or whatever you want to call it.

939
00:40:24,758 --> 00:40:25,878
Speaker 4: I wanted my discipline.

940
00:40:25,918 --> 00:40:28,718
Speaker 3: I always wanted my discipline as a manager on the field,

941
00:40:28,758 --> 00:40:30,518
Speaker 3: meaning that we played the game a certain way. We

942
00:40:30,598 --> 00:40:32,718
Speaker 3: played it hard, Like you suggested, Guys knew where to

943
00:40:32,718 --> 00:40:34,758
Speaker 3: throw the baseball when it was hit to them. You

944
00:40:34,878 --> 00:40:37,398
Speaker 3: ran hard to first base, pitchers worked on your defense.

945
00:40:37,878 --> 00:40:39,558
Speaker 3: You know how to hold the runner on first base.

946
00:40:39,598 --> 00:40:40,998
Speaker 3: If you got a bunch, you knew where to throw

947
00:40:41,038 --> 00:40:42,838
Speaker 3: it and how to throw it. Those are the kind

948
00:40:42,878 --> 00:40:44,718
Speaker 3: of things that's where you want your discipline and not

949
00:40:44,798 --> 00:40:46,198
Speaker 3: to the point you want. You know, you don't have

950
00:40:46,278 --> 00:40:47,718
Speaker 3: to go to the police station at night, but you

951
00:40:47,758 --> 00:40:50,078
Speaker 3: definitely want this state out of their way and not

952
00:40:50,158 --> 00:40:52,358
Speaker 3: tell them how to dress, how to act, and permit

953
00:40:52,398 --> 00:40:54,078
Speaker 3: them to be adults, which they are. They probably all

954
00:40:54,078 --> 00:40:55,598
Speaker 3: had kids and they were after all, they were of

955
00:40:55,678 --> 00:40:57,718
Speaker 3: drinking age and able to serve in the armed forces.

956
00:40:57,758 --> 00:41:01,078
Speaker 3: So that's where I've always had issues. And good for him,

957
00:41:01,398 --> 00:41:03,758
Speaker 3: Good for him. I love hearing all of this, and

958
00:41:04,078 --> 00:41:07,078
Speaker 3: that makes being called a word whisp by him even

959
00:41:07,158 --> 00:41:08,678
Speaker 3: more spectacular.

960
00:41:08,878 --> 00:41:11,478
Speaker 1: Well, he had a Boston Frank Cash and the general

961
00:41:11,518 --> 00:41:14,718
Speaker 1: manager who was very old school, and it rubbed him

962
00:41:14,718 --> 00:41:17,038
Speaker 1: the wrong way that he thought this Mets team was

963
00:41:17,078 --> 00:41:17,918
Speaker 1: a little too loose.

964
00:41:17,998 --> 00:41:18,198
Speaker 4: You know.

965
00:41:18,238 --> 00:41:21,758
Speaker 1: They traded Kevin Mitchell because they thought he was a

966
00:41:21,798 --> 00:41:23,278
Speaker 1: bad influence on Dwight Gooden.

967
00:41:23,438 --> 00:41:24,118
Speaker 2: Davey didn't care.

968
00:41:24,558 --> 00:41:26,878
Speaker 1: Davy was a guy who played Kevin Mitchell at shortstop

969
00:41:27,158 --> 00:41:29,358
Speaker 1: when he had a fly ball pitcher like Sid Fernandez

970
00:41:29,398 --> 00:41:31,318
Speaker 1: on the mound. Davy ran a game where he brought

971
00:41:31,318 --> 00:41:35,118
Speaker 1: in Jesse Roscoe and Roger McDowell, alternating between the outfield

972
00:41:35,118 --> 00:41:37,278
Speaker 1: and the pitcher's mound. He was short of players because

973
00:41:37,318 --> 00:41:39,678
Speaker 1: some guys got ejected during a fight, and that happened

974
00:41:39,678 --> 00:41:40,638
Speaker 1: a lot in Mets games.

975
00:41:41,238 --> 00:41:42,558
Speaker 2: He wasn't afraid to make moves.

976
00:41:42,638 --> 00:41:44,998
Speaker 1: He moved Cal Ripken off a shortstop to third base

977
00:41:45,038 --> 00:41:47,878
Speaker 1: to play Manny Alexander. This is what Davey did. But

978
00:41:47,998 --> 00:41:50,638
Speaker 1: Frank Cash and thought he was little too lax. And

979
00:41:50,678 --> 00:41:53,518
Speaker 1: he reminds me of you, Joe, this way and your

980
00:41:53,518 --> 00:41:56,438
Speaker 1: famous line like never get in the way of greatness.

981
00:41:56,598 --> 00:41:59,078
Speaker 1: And he didn't want to put governors on these guys

982
00:41:59,078 --> 00:42:00,598
Speaker 1: who played fast and loose.

983
00:42:01,158 --> 00:42:02,198
Speaker 2: That was Davey Johnson.

984
00:42:02,238 --> 00:42:05,758
Speaker 1: And when they fired him, Frank Cash made Bud Harrelson

985
00:42:05,798 --> 00:42:08,838
Speaker 1: the manager and essentially told them you need rules, and

986
00:42:08,878 --> 00:42:11,678
Speaker 1: they started instituting rules. They had no card playing in

987
00:42:11,718 --> 00:42:14,598
Speaker 1: the clubhouse, they had no golf on the road. They

988
00:42:14,718 --> 00:42:16,638
Speaker 1: established a curfew. When was the last time you had

989
00:42:16,678 --> 00:42:19,438
Speaker 1: heard curfew in Major League Baseball? None of it worked,

990
00:42:19,918 --> 00:42:22,958
Speaker 1: and David Johnson said, listen, Frank, one of these rules.

991
00:42:23,238 --> 00:42:25,998
Speaker 1: We didn't need them. And of course it didn't work

992
00:42:26,038 --> 00:42:28,438
Speaker 1: when they went the other way. But David Johnson was

993
00:42:28,478 --> 00:42:30,878
Speaker 1: the right manager for the right players because exactly what

994
00:42:30,918 --> 00:42:33,118
Speaker 1: you said, Joe all along, don't get in the way

995
00:42:33,118 --> 00:42:33,598
Speaker 1: of greatness.

996
00:42:33,718 --> 00:42:34,358
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're.

997
00:42:34,278 --> 00:42:36,278
Speaker 3: Winning, it's not being too loose, it's being like a

998
00:42:36,358 --> 00:42:40,198
Speaker 3: free spirited having a blast family. All those different words

999
00:42:40,238 --> 00:42:43,638
Speaker 3: are utilized. It's like, are the rules and regulations of

1000
00:42:43,678 --> 00:42:46,838
Speaker 3: the past? Is that the comp to present day analytical

1001
00:42:46,918 --> 00:42:50,198
Speaker 3: situation where things are wanting to be controlled so much.

1002
00:42:50,478 --> 00:42:53,958
Speaker 3: Maybe that's why I recognized where I think analytics has

1003
00:42:53,998 --> 00:42:56,718
Speaker 3: gone too far because I was never really into a

1004
00:42:56,718 --> 00:42:58,358
Speaker 3: whole bunch of rules and regulations.

1005
00:42:58,838 --> 00:43:00,038
Speaker 4: I called them policies.

1006
00:43:00,118 --> 00:43:02,838
Speaker 3: I had my meetings with my players, and I would

1007
00:43:02,838 --> 00:43:05,278
Speaker 3: never use the word rules in rags. I did early

1008
00:43:05,318 --> 00:43:07,158
Speaker 3: on in my career. Then I got over it, and

1009
00:43:07,198 --> 00:43:10,398
Speaker 3: then we started as great policies. And when you have policy,

1010
00:43:10,558 --> 00:43:13,678
Speaker 3: it's a little bit more open minded. It's something that's

1011
00:43:13,718 --> 00:43:17,598
Speaker 3: not as rigid. It's something that I think is malleable

1012
00:43:17,718 --> 00:43:22,198
Speaker 3: and not so straightforward and harsh. So I get all that,

1013
00:43:22,358 --> 00:43:25,238
Speaker 3: and I agree with Davy's methods, and like I said,

1014
00:43:25,438 --> 00:43:27,398
Speaker 3: I wish I'd gotten to know him better based on

1015
00:43:27,438 --> 00:43:28,078
Speaker 3: this conversation.

1016
00:43:28,198 --> 00:43:30,838
Speaker 1: Right now, just to wrap things up on Davey Johnson,

1017
00:43:31,118 --> 00:43:33,358
Speaker 1: you know what a life you know, one two world

1018
00:43:33,358 --> 00:43:35,718
Speaker 1: series as a player, one as a manager. He had

1019
00:43:35,718 --> 00:43:38,918
Speaker 1: the last hit off Sandy Kofax. He hit behind Hank

1020
00:43:38,958 --> 00:43:40,278
Speaker 1: aaron En, Sadahara.

1021
00:43:40,358 --> 00:43:40,918
Speaker 5: Oh.

1022
00:43:40,998 --> 00:43:43,358
Speaker 2: He managed Rusty Stobb.

1023
00:43:43,038 --> 00:43:46,318
Speaker 1: Who was born in nineteen forty four, and Bryce Harper

1024
00:43:46,758 --> 00:43:49,478
Speaker 1: who was born in nineteen ninety two. You know, this

1025
00:43:49,558 --> 00:43:52,078
Speaker 1: guy basically did it all in the game except get

1026
00:43:52,078 --> 00:43:54,558
Speaker 1: into the Hall of Fame. And one thing I have

1027
00:43:54,638 --> 00:43:58,278
Speaker 1: to point out Joe is that when he was the

1028
00:43:58,278 --> 00:44:00,598
Speaker 1: Mets TRIPAA manager, when he was promoted, he paid his

1029
00:44:00,678 --> 00:44:02,998
Speaker 1: dues in the minor leagues right, and so he had

1030
00:44:03,078 --> 00:44:05,558
Speaker 1: some of these guys in the team in the minor leagues.

1031
00:44:05,918 --> 00:44:08,638
Speaker 1: He was the one who told Frank Cash in nineteen

1032
00:44:08,678 --> 00:44:11,478
Speaker 1: eighty four that Dwight Gooden, who was nineteen years old,

1033
00:44:12,038 --> 00:44:14,558
Speaker 1: was so good they had to carry about the opening

1034
00:44:14,638 --> 00:44:17,558
Speaker 1: day roster. Imagine that now, a team carrying a nineteen

1035
00:44:17,638 --> 00:44:19,598
Speaker 1: year old pitcher on the opening day roster.

1036
00:44:19,838 --> 00:44:22,238
Speaker 2: But Davey understood, this guy's the best picture I've had.

1037
00:44:22,318 --> 00:44:27,198
Speaker 1: And you look at Gooden, Ron Darling, Rick Aguilera, Randy Myers,

1038
00:44:27,638 --> 00:44:32,318
Speaker 1: Sid Fernandez, and then David Cohene after that, all these pitchers,

1039
00:44:32,438 --> 00:44:36,438
Speaker 1: young pitchers who Davy Johnson had in a short two

1040
00:44:36,558 --> 00:44:41,798
Speaker 1: three year window. They all pitched twelve to sixteen years

1041
00:44:41,878 --> 00:44:44,878
Speaker 1: in the major leagues. He was a master at handling

1042
00:44:45,198 --> 00:44:48,158
Speaker 1: young pitchers, and I can hear him to this day

1043
00:44:48,238 --> 00:44:52,558
Speaker 1: talking about when Darling and Gooden and Fernandez were in

1044
00:44:52,598 --> 00:44:54,758
Speaker 1: a game. This is when people paid attention to wins

1045
00:44:54,798 --> 00:44:57,878
Speaker 1: and losses. He never wanted them to be in a

1046
00:44:57,918 --> 00:45:00,438
Speaker 1: situation where they could lose a game where they were

1047
00:45:00,478 --> 00:45:02,478
Speaker 1: pitching well. So, in other words, a three run lead,

1048
00:45:02,558 --> 00:45:05,078
Speaker 1: leadoff guy gets on base, that's probably the opportunity to

1049
00:45:05,118 --> 00:45:07,238
Speaker 1: get the picture out of the game. He never wanted

1050
00:45:07,278 --> 00:45:09,518
Speaker 1: his pitcher to walk off the field with a bad

1051
00:45:09,638 --> 00:45:12,798
Speaker 1: feeling with a loss next to their name. It mattered

1052
00:45:12,838 --> 00:45:15,398
Speaker 1: back then, and I think to some degree it still matters. Joe,

1053
00:45:15,718 --> 00:45:18,758
Speaker 1: But the way he handled young pitching, and especially and

1054
00:45:18,878 --> 00:45:21,638
Speaker 1: Melstottlemeyer was his pitching coach all those years, did a

1055
00:45:21,678 --> 00:45:22,598
Speaker 1: fabulous job.

1056
00:45:22,678 --> 00:45:23,638
Speaker 2: Proof is in the pudding.

1057
00:45:23,718 --> 00:45:27,598
Speaker 1: When you have guys lasting twelve to sixteen years after

1058
00:45:27,638 --> 00:45:29,278
Speaker 1: starting as a young pitchers.

1059
00:45:29,078 --> 00:45:31,398
Speaker 3: The nineteen year old good And today would have that,

1060
00:45:31,478 --> 00:45:34,518
Speaker 3: what five innings at the most seventy five pitches.

1061
00:45:34,558 --> 00:45:37,038
Speaker 1: Maybe he's not pitching third time around a line, oh

1062
00:45:37,838 --> 00:45:39,478
Speaker 1: every six or seventh day.

1063
00:45:39,718 --> 00:45:42,678
Speaker 3: That's like interference with greatness right there? Now, listen, I'm

1064
00:45:42,718 --> 00:45:44,878
Speaker 3: happy you've brought this subject up because I have a

1065
00:45:44,878 --> 00:45:46,358
Speaker 3: greater appreciation for Davy.

1066
00:45:46,398 --> 00:45:47,438
Speaker 4: Now that's all I mean.

1067
00:45:47,518 --> 00:45:49,998
Speaker 3: Like you said, I mean, you're saying things that kind

1068
00:45:49,998 --> 00:45:51,278
Speaker 3: of remind me of like a lot of things that

1069
00:45:51,318 --> 00:45:53,438
Speaker 3: I had done, because I would pay attention with the

1070
00:45:53,438 --> 00:45:55,358
Speaker 3: three run lead for ast guy gets on, you know,

1071
00:45:55,398 --> 00:45:56,758
Speaker 3: get get the dude out of there.

1072
00:45:57,158 --> 00:45:58,078
Speaker 4: If I failed to do.

1073
00:45:58,078 --> 00:46:00,798
Speaker 3: That in situations, I'd get upset with myself because I

1074
00:46:00,838 --> 00:46:03,438
Speaker 3: was I asleep at the switch? Did I miss something

1075
00:46:03,518 --> 00:46:07,038
Speaker 3: right here? All that little nuance that you're talking about

1076
00:46:07,038 --> 00:46:09,758
Speaker 3: there that he did is very relevant. And you do

1077
00:46:09,838 --> 00:46:11,918
Speaker 3: build up cachet with your group. And it's not like

1078
00:46:11,958 --> 00:46:14,078
Speaker 3: you're painting to the by any means. These guys have

1079
00:46:14,118 --> 00:46:16,198
Speaker 3: already pitched really well. They've had a great night. Let

1080
00:46:16,238 --> 00:46:18,158
Speaker 3: him go home having a great night and not leaving

1081
00:46:18,198 --> 00:46:20,438
Speaker 3: the ballpark with a less dand feeling after they were

1082
00:46:20,438 --> 00:46:23,558
Speaker 3: so spectacular. So little moments like that, if you're really

1083
00:46:23,598 --> 00:46:27,198
Speaker 3: paying attention and understand human nature, know your guys, et cetera,

1084
00:46:27,518 --> 00:46:29,478
Speaker 3: you could make these kind of moves that are kind

1085
00:46:29,478 --> 00:46:32,598
Speaker 3: of subtle that nobody really truly ever talks about. But

1086
00:46:32,678 --> 00:46:35,078
Speaker 3: you know, make a difference obviously for the team and

1087
00:46:35,118 --> 00:46:38,838
Speaker 3: then individually because long term you're gonna get some really

1088
00:46:38,878 --> 00:46:41,678
Speaker 3: good work out of these guys because they know they

1089
00:46:41,758 --> 00:46:43,038
Speaker 3: us the manager taking.

1090
00:46:42,798 --> 00:46:43,278
Speaker 4: Care of them.

1091
00:46:43,358 --> 00:46:45,998
Speaker 1: Well, one thing I appreciate Joe is he always spoke

1092
00:46:46,038 --> 00:46:48,638
Speaker 1: his mind. You know, it's something we've lost in the

1093
00:46:48,678 --> 00:46:51,198
Speaker 1: game today, not just as you mentioned the characters in

1094
00:46:51,238 --> 00:46:53,398
Speaker 1: the game, but for managers who are willing to go

1095
00:46:53,478 --> 00:46:56,158
Speaker 1: out there almost on an island and just tell you

1096
00:46:56,238 --> 00:46:56,678
Speaker 1: this truth.

1097
00:46:56,958 --> 00:46:59,438
Speaker 2: And that was Davey Johnson, real quick, famous story.

1098
00:46:59,478 --> 00:47:02,238
Speaker 1: He actually double switched Daryl Strawberry out of that Game

1099
00:47:02,318 --> 00:47:04,918
Speaker 1: six of the World Series, so his best lugger is

1100
00:47:04,998 --> 00:47:08,358
Speaker 1: tied the ninth inning and to move the pitcher spot,

1101
00:47:08,478 --> 00:47:11,878
Speaker 1: he took Strawberry out of the game. And after the game,

1102
00:47:12,038 --> 00:47:14,678
Speaker 1: one of the classic World Series games in baseball history,

1103
00:47:14,718 --> 00:47:17,918
Speaker 1: the met's coming from behind, Buckner makes the error. Clubhouse

1104
00:47:17,998 --> 00:47:20,278
Speaker 1: is going nuts after the game, and Darryl Strawberry ripped

1105
00:47:20,278 --> 00:47:20,838
Speaker 1: his manager.

1106
00:47:22,078 --> 00:47:24,118
Speaker 2: That's a terrible mistake, taking me out of the.

1107
00:47:24,118 --> 00:47:27,518
Speaker 1: Game, And of course Davy being Davy, goes right back

1108
00:47:27,558 --> 00:47:30,038
Speaker 1: after him and essentially says, you know what, After a

1109
00:47:30,038 --> 00:47:33,198
Speaker 1: few years, maybe Darryl can be managerial material, But right

1110
00:47:33,198 --> 00:47:35,638
Speaker 1: now he's thinking about himself and I'm thinking about what

1111
00:47:35,678 --> 00:47:37,358
Speaker 1: I need to do two or three innings ahead.

1112
00:47:37,558 --> 00:47:39,118
Speaker 2: That stuff doesn't happen anymore.

1113
00:47:39,318 --> 00:47:41,878
Speaker 3: No, it can't happen anymore. I mean, oh my god,

1114
00:47:41,918 --> 00:47:43,478
Speaker 3: the whole team would rally against the manager.

1115
00:47:43,518 --> 00:47:44,118
Speaker 4: If you said that.

1116
00:47:44,838 --> 00:47:47,638
Speaker 3: Then the player that said that would have what twenty

1117
00:47:47,638 --> 00:47:51,758
Speaker 3: five allies, and probably one of the trainers, the massage guy,

1118
00:47:51,958 --> 00:47:54,358
Speaker 3: the pilates dude, all would be on the side of

1119
00:47:54,358 --> 00:47:54,918
Speaker 3: the players.

1120
00:47:54,958 --> 00:47:55,958
Speaker 4: So no, you can't.

1121
00:47:56,038 --> 00:47:59,278
Speaker 3: You can't speak so openly and freely anymore. We talk

1122
00:47:59,358 --> 00:48:01,878
Speaker 3: about it, the truth tellers, and I know truth comes

1123
00:48:01,878 --> 00:48:04,198
Speaker 3: in different shapes and sizes. It could be disguised, is

1124
00:48:04,238 --> 00:48:07,958
Speaker 3: biased it sometimes, But I love the truth tellers, man.

1125
00:48:07,838 --> 00:48:09,678
Speaker 4: And that we were surrounded by them.

1126
00:48:09,718 --> 00:48:12,038
Speaker 3: And I've in our book, the Book of Joe We

1127
00:48:12,278 --> 00:48:15,478
Speaker 3: you know, I talk about Bobbaloo. Bob clear my god, man,

1128
00:48:15,558 --> 00:48:17,438
Speaker 3: if you want your hair party, you don't even need

1129
00:48:17,478 --> 00:48:21,718
Speaker 3: a comb. Just have a controversial conversation with Bobba Looo

1130
00:48:21,998 --> 00:48:23,918
Speaker 3: and your hair would come back part it. God, I

1131
00:48:23,918 --> 00:48:27,798
Speaker 3: love that stuff, and that's what's missing everybody always having

1132
00:48:27,838 --> 00:48:31,078
Speaker 3: to parse the truth and really stay away from trying

1133
00:48:31,118 --> 00:48:32,558
Speaker 3: to hurt somebody's.

1134
00:48:32,078 --> 00:48:34,558
Speaker 4: Feelings even though they need to be told.

1135
00:48:34,718 --> 00:48:36,398
Speaker 3: Last point on that is like, but it read a

1136
00:48:36,398 --> 00:48:39,358
Speaker 3: great line, which I've always tried to consider honesty without

1137
00:48:39,398 --> 00:48:42,998
Speaker 3: compassion equals cruelty. So you got to know the guys

1138
00:48:42,998 --> 00:48:45,318
Speaker 3: that you could like shoot between the eyeballs and they'll

1139
00:48:45,358 --> 00:48:47,678
Speaker 3: be able to they'll take it, and there's others that

1140
00:48:47,718 --> 00:48:49,998
Speaker 3: if you do, they're just gonna crumble. So you have

1141
00:48:50,038 --> 00:48:53,998
Speaker 3: to like be honest, but maybe not as severely honest.

1142
00:48:53,718 --> 00:48:56,078
Speaker 4: With certain people. And I think there's too much of

1143
00:48:56,078 --> 00:48:56,958
Speaker 4: that going on today.

1144
00:48:57,038 --> 00:48:59,158
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of great lines, Joe, it's time for you

1145
00:48:59,238 --> 00:49:01,478
Speaker 1: to give us some truth telling here to take us

1146
00:49:01,518 --> 00:49:03,838
Speaker 1: home on this edition of the Book of Joe.

1147
00:49:04,038 --> 00:49:04,758
Speaker 2: What do you have for us?

1148
00:49:04,798 --> 00:49:05,918
Speaker 4: You're gonna have to follow along.

1149
00:49:05,958 --> 00:49:08,678
Speaker 3: I mean, I was looking for motivation today and it

1150
00:49:08,718 --> 00:49:12,998
Speaker 3: was Leonardo da Vinci and I read this line from him,

1151
00:49:13,038 --> 00:49:16,438
Speaker 3: and I thought it was fabulous and it pertains to baseball.

1152
00:49:16,678 --> 00:49:19,518
Speaker 3: I'm going to rearrange a few of the words. So

1153
00:49:19,598 --> 00:49:22,358
Speaker 3: this quote comes from Leonardo da Vinci, who I think

1154
00:49:22,398 --> 00:49:24,798
Speaker 3: was born in like fourteen fifty two and passed in

1155
00:49:24,838 --> 00:49:28,638
Speaker 3: the early and mid fifteen hundreds. But Leonardo said baseball

1156
00:49:28,678 --> 00:49:32,438
Speaker 3: fans to According to baseball fans, baseball is poetry that

1157
00:49:32,598 --> 00:49:36,638
Speaker 3: is seen rather than felt, And to baseball players, poetry

1158
00:49:36,838 --> 00:49:40,358
Speaker 3: is baseball that is felt rather than seen. That comes

1159
00:49:40,398 --> 00:49:42,438
Speaker 3: from the great Leonardo back in the day, one of

1160
00:49:42,438 --> 00:49:46,238
Speaker 3: the earliest baseball fans. But again talking about the game

1161
00:49:46,278 --> 00:49:50,758
Speaker 3: itself and the fact that of baseball, to me is

1162
00:49:50,918 --> 00:49:53,358
Speaker 3: an art form. But if you're sitting in the stands,

1163
00:49:53,398 --> 00:49:55,278
Speaker 3: if you're a fan, you see it, but you don't

1164
00:49:55,278 --> 00:49:58,358
Speaker 3: necessarily feel it as much the game itself. But as

1165
00:49:58,398 --> 00:50:02,158
Speaker 3: a player, poetry is baseball, and it's all about feel

1166
00:50:02,318 --> 00:50:04,278
Speaker 3: as far as I'm concerned, rather than just.

1167
00:50:04,238 --> 00:50:04,958
Speaker 4: Looking at it.

1168
00:50:05,278 --> 00:50:08,438
Speaker 3: And that's where I think sometimes the way it's explained today,

1169
00:50:08,518 --> 00:50:11,038
Speaker 3: the way it's manipulated or taught today, you have to

1170
00:50:11,078 --> 00:50:14,478
Speaker 3: understand it. This game is about feel, and it's about

1171
00:50:14,638 --> 00:50:18,998
Speaker 3: taking lobs of information and simplifying it, doing simple better

1172
00:50:19,038 --> 00:50:22,598
Speaker 3: to the most minute detail, maybe one nugget, one thought

1173
00:50:22,598 --> 00:50:25,198
Speaker 3: to hold on to two nuggets, very difficult to do.

1174
00:50:25,318 --> 00:50:28,958
Speaker 3: When you're at the point of doing something highly complicated,

1175
00:50:29,158 --> 00:50:31,518
Speaker 3: you need to make it look simple. Feel is the

1176
00:50:31,558 --> 00:50:34,318
Speaker 3: primary component, and feel is the gift of experience. So

1177
00:50:34,518 --> 00:50:37,598
Speaker 3: I read that quote, da Vinci's being so prescient that

1178
00:50:37,638 --> 00:50:39,798
Speaker 3: he thought this up in the fourteen to fifteen hundreds

1179
00:50:39,798 --> 00:50:41,638
Speaker 3: and describing the game of baseball.

1180
00:50:41,678 --> 00:50:44,078
Speaker 1: I mean, that's one thing I love about this podcast.

1181
00:50:44,118 --> 00:50:46,758
Speaker 1: I learned something new every time. I had no idea

1182
00:50:46,798 --> 00:50:48,518
Speaker 1: that Leo is such a baseball fan.

1183
00:50:48,598 --> 00:50:52,158
Speaker 3: Big baseball fan, you got baseball started born in fourteen

1184
00:50:52,238 --> 00:50:54,838
Speaker 3: fifty two, died fifteen something. I can remember the last

1185
00:50:54,878 --> 00:50:56,478
Speaker 3: part of it. But yeah, I've always been a fan,

1186
00:50:56,558 --> 00:50:56,998
Speaker 3: and now.

1187
00:50:56,998 --> 00:50:58,798
Speaker 4: I'm even a bigger fan of mister da Vinci.

1188
00:50:58,918 --> 00:51:00,558
Speaker 2: Great job. We'll see you next time, Joe.

1189
00:51:00,678 --> 00:51:03,918
Speaker 3: All right, brother, be well, thank you.

1190
00:51:09,958 --> 00:51:13,198
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

1191
00:51:13,398 --> 00:51:18,398
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1192
00:51:18,518 --> 00:51:20,278
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.