1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace breaking news tonight, a deal 2 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: with the Devil. Brian Koberger gets a plea deal? What 3 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: does it mean? No death penalty? What did the families 4 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: of the victims learn? Everything contained in a letter? Are 5 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: you kidding me? They find out about the deal with 6 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: the devil by letter of emergency. 7 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 2: You don't know what. 8 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: She's not waking up? They saw some men in their house? 9 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: What happened that night at the king Wrote address where 10 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: four beautiful University Idaho students were stabbed dead? Now we 11 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: will never know the audacity of taking a plea deal 12 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: with the devil? Brian Coburger without the families consent, I've 13 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: never heard anything like it. With me and all start 14 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: panel to make sense of what we are learning right now. 15 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: But I got to tell you, I'm crushed. I'm crushed, 16 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: and I can only imagine what the victims' families are 17 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: going through. You know, I thought I knew it all 18 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: about grieving and mourning and suffering when my fiance was 19 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: murdered shortly before our wedding. But now that I have 20 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: two children, nothing, nothing could be worse than this being 21 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: done to your child, and then you have no voice 22 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: no voice at all about a plea deal? Is this America? 23 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: How has this happened? Does the prosecutor not hear the 24 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: crying the whales of the victims' families with me a 25 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: loyal and all star panel that has analyzed, examined, investigated 26 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: this case from day one straight out to Dave Matc 27 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter, Dave, I can't believe this. I 28 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: cannot believe this. I feel like I've been kicked in 29 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 1: the stomach and in the teeth at the same time. 30 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: I expect shenanigans on the part of the defense. I 31 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: expect that there can be one bad apple on the 32 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: police force or on the investigation team, but this for 33 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: the prosecutors to go behind the victims' families back and 34 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 1: offer a plea deal. To Brian Coburger, what happened, Dave. 35 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 3: Mack Well, Nancy. It looks like after the defense laid 36 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 3: out their possible alternative suspects idea and the judge rejected it, 37 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 3: that they reached out to the prosecution and said, get 38 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 3: us a deal, and the prosecution we're after consulting with 39 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 3: the families briefly and getting a negative response from at 40 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 3: least two of those families still turned around and, as 41 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 3: you said, made a deal with the devil that even 42 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 3: the best possible outcome for him and for the love. 43 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 3: All I can think of is these families and what 44 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 3: they're dealing with right this minute. Their hearts are broken, 45 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 3: their souls are crushed by a decision that just compounds 46 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 3: the pain. 47 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: Okay, let me understand what you just said, Dave Night. 48 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: You said they. Now I believe you and I have 49 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: discussed that we use proper names, not he she they Okay, 50 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: who reached out to who for a deal? 51 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 3: Brian Cooberger's defense team reached out to Brian Dick Thompson, 52 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 3: the prosecutor of Leta County, and asked for a deal. 53 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: So what does that mean to me? Every defense attorney 54 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 1: drags up the hall at the courthouse wanting a deal, 55 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: a sweet deal, and they start off with, hey, can 56 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: I have straight probation? This guy's really he's a really 57 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: good guy. Yeah, that's how it always starts, right, And 58 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: then they go up and they go up. So what 59 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: so what they wanted a deal? That means nothing to me? 60 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: Of course they want a deal, that's a given. They 61 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: want a deal. I mean, so the defense asked for 62 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: a deal, and so what the state just been over 63 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: a barrel and said go to it. 64 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 3: They said, take the death penalty off the table and 65 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 3: we're in. And that is apparently what has happened. The 66 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 3: guy was staring for murders, death penalty, firing squad. We've 67 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 3: done shows about the possible ways of him being taken 68 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 3: out if convicted, and after everything we've seen, it looks 69 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 3: like at the finish line, you're getting ready to go 70 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 3: to trial and they say, take the death penalty off 71 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 3: the table and we'll sign. 72 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 4: Off on it. 73 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 3: And that is apparently what happened. I say apparently because 74 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 3: I wasn't there or involved with any of the discussions, 75 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 3: I can only go on what had actually transpired in 76 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:50,679 Speaker 3: the last twenty four hours. 77 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: Everyone, let's take a listen to a little bit of 78 00:05:55,640 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: what we know happened in the hours surrounding the murders. 79 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: A four Idaho students, four students dead and now I 80 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: got to give this guy three hots and a cot 81 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: for the rest of his life. Wow, he has the 82 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: opportunity to make book and movie deals, have online girlfriends. 83 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: Are you kidding? Listen? 84 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 5: Tell me exactly. 85 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 1: What's going on. 86 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 3: One of our one of the roommates who's passed out 87 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 3: and she's drunk class and she'dn't wake me up. 88 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: Okay. 89 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 3: Oh and they saw some man in their house house night. 90 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, Hian, are you with the patient? 91 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 5: Okay? 92 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 6: I need someone to keep the phone, stop passing it around. 93 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 4: Can I just tell you what happened pretty much? 94 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: What is going on currently as someone passed out right. 95 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 4: Now, I don't really know what pretty much for him? 96 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 5: Okay, So I need to know what's going on right 97 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 5: now if someone has passed out. 98 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 3: Can you find that out, y'all. 99 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: I'll come come on with the new doical check, but 100 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: we have to joining me longtime friend and colleague Cold 101 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: Case Investigative Research Institute founder and host of a new 102 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: hit podcast, Zone seven, Cheryl McCollum joining me. I've never 103 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: heard anything like it in a case of this magnitude 104 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: or any case, any case at all, to completely disregard 105 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: what the victims' families want because you're afraid to go 106 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: to trial. Really, he says, if what other reason could 107 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: there be to do this to the families of the victims. 108 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: How could I mean, if you're not there to help 109 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: the crime victims, why are you there. Why don't you 110 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: go get a job in a law firm and sit 111 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: in the library and research all day. You know, if 112 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. 113 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: If you can't do battle, get off the battlefield. I'm 114 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: just I've stunned Cheryl. 115 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 3: Nancy. 116 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 6: Arguably, a quadruple homicide is going to be one of 117 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 6: the most important cases of your career. How does each 118 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 6: family not have a victim advocate in contact with them? 119 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: Put her up? How Cheryl McCallum, frankly, pardon my latin, 120 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: but screw their careers. This is not about anybody's career. 121 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: Screw that. This is about what is right and what 122 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: is wrong and representing the victims. The victims don't want 123 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: is so why is it happening? Nancy? 124 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 6: It's unimaginable. And that's why I'm saying this was not 125 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 6: taken in the breath that it should have been, that 126 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 6: you're going to send somebody an email, That there was 127 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 6: not a call made, that there was not an in 128 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 6: person meeting where everybody is together to understand what the 129 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 6: offer was and whether or not it was going to 130 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 6: be accepted or rejected. As a group, as they this 131 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 6: happened to a group of people. It should be under 132 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 6: every possible consideration that these moms and dads and siblings 133 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 6: have a say here. 134 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 3: Period. 135 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: The infuriating letter that prosecutors send the families of the 136 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: Idaho murder victims informing them that there is a plea 137 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: deal and nothing they can do about it. Okay, joining me, 138 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: You know him well, Philip Debay, high profile defense attorney 139 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: out of LA debate. I'm not arguing with you right 140 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: now about the state versus the defense, the evidence. I'm 141 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: talking to you about common courtesy right. You cannot enter 142 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: a plea deal without your client, the defendant, agreeing, can you. 143 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 7: No, of course not. It's his right to the plea, 144 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 7: it's his right to the trial that he's giving up, 145 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:00,719 Speaker 7: and it must be voluntary. But what a lot of 146 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 7: people don't know is that the law does not require 147 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 7: the concurrence of victims or victims next of kin in 148 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 7: settlement negotiations or the outcomes of plea deals. There are 149 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 7: to be looped in advised as to what's happening, but 150 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 7: they are not a party to the negotiations or the 151 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 7: ultimate plea agreement. And as alienating as it might sound, 152 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,599 Speaker 7: it is simply not required. I think the only reapourse 153 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 7: that voters have right now is the ballot. 154 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: Hey, you know what, Debay, You're right, there's nowhere in 155 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: the law that says you have to coordinate your plea 156 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: deal with the victims family. Yeah, there's no law saying that. 157 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: There's no common law, which is case law, stating that 158 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: it's neither statutory in the code, in the written letter 159 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: of the law, or in the common law, which is 160 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: case law. But in a murder case, I'm asking you 161 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: a yes no question debate when you enter a plea 162 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: in any felony, name it, I don't care what it is, 163 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: any felony, isn't it true? Debate that you must have 164 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: the consent, the agreement, the cooperation of your criminal defendant. 165 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: That is a yes no debate. 166 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 4: Yes. 167 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: So what that means is, while a criminal defendant set 168 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 1: to plead guilty, who is guilty of murder, of any 169 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,239 Speaker 1: felony it could be car theft, they must agree and cooperate. 170 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: Not so for the violent crime victims family. It doesn't 171 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: matter what they think. Have you ever, Chris McDonough, in 172 00:11:51,880 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: your life, heard anything like the stunt, the double deal, 173 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: the backstaff, that has gone on in this case, with 174 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: the victims' families all opposed to this deal, would you 175 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: even consider it? No? 176 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 5: And in fact, you always want to have the cooperation 177 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,479 Speaker 5: of the family as you enter back into that courtroom. 178 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 5: And to add, you know, salt into the wound. How 179 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 5: about restitution for the family. 180 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 4: You know, I know what. 181 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 5: I've seen these families so many times. What are they 182 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 5: thinking today? Right, Nancy? How much did my child cost? 183 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 5: Is that the question the prosecution's ask them, And that's 184 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 5: part of the deal. It's just a bad situation all around. 185 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: Now, it's very interesting, guys. That's Chris mcdunna speaking. He 186 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: is former homicide detect who has worked over three hundred 187 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: hardcore homicides over his twenty five year career plus more. 188 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: He is a host of the Interview Room where I 189 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: found him on YouTube. To renowned author Howard Bloom joining me, 190 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: the author of the definitive work on this case. When 191 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: the night comes falling a requiem for the Idaho student murders, Howard, 192 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: I'm in shock. I couldn't believe it when I heard 193 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: there is a deal and the families disagree. Now, Howard, 194 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have liked it or agreed with it, even 195 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: if the families had gone along with this, but I 196 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: would bow to their decision because of course I defer 197 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: to them. I can't believe the state has done this. 198 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: I'm stunned, and I very rarely go against the state 199 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 1: because I believe prosecutors generally have reasons for what they 200 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: do that we may not understand. Very often I question, well, 201 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: why this count and not that count? Why that strategy? 202 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: Why did you say that? But I know that they 203 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: know ins and outs of the case that the public 204 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: doesn't know, and they may very well have their reasons 205 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: for what they do. But I don't see a reason 206 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: for this. 207 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 2: I mean, the state's behavior was at best cavalier and 208 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: at worst, I agree with you, reprehensible. But what I 209 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: think is interesting is why the fence at this point 210 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 2: decide to make a deal, and when I'm hearing is 211 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 2: about families too. Early on, Coburger had been approached by 212 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 2: his attorneys about making a deal and his mother was 213 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: against it, dead set against it. She wanted to come 214 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: to trial. Now that the trial was approaching, it looked 215 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 2: like Coburger's parents were going to have to go on 216 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: the stand. This was told to him. His mother would 217 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 2: have to talk about the telephone call she got at 218 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 2: six am Idaho time, nine am in Pennsylvania that went 219 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: on for about ar hour, just after the murders, and 220 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 2: she would have to say what was going on there? 221 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: Does she have any suspicions? His father was going to 222 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 2: have to talk about the cross country trip they took 223 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 2: and what was discussed during that trip, and to protect 224 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 2: his family. When this was presented to Coburger, Coburger finally 225 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 2: was convinced by his lawyers and maybe he should make 226 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 2: the deal. That's what I've been. 227 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: Hearing, Howard Bloom. Do you think I care about that 228 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: family that they don't want to take the stand. So 229 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: I don't care that Coburger's family doesn't want to take 230 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: the stand. Do not care? They still have their son. 231 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: They can visit him, he can write books, he can 232 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: write letters, he can do FaceTime. He will be in 233 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: their lives forever, whether they want him to be or not. 234 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: I'm talking about what this has done to the victim's family. Remember, then, 235 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: you're raising the question is how did. 236 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 2: This deal come about? How are they finally able to 237 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 2: make a deal. I think you know the families of 238 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 2: the victims are going to be victims forever. It's a tragedy. 239 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: It's horrible. 240 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: How did this come around that a deal was made? 241 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 2: What did the prosecution see that they were willing to 242 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: make this deal? Was it just about saving money or 243 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 2: are they that cynical for the state? Did they actually 244 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 2: think they could lose this case? What was going on here? 245 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 2: I think those are interesting questions too. 246 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: You know, they've got DNA, They've got the defendants d 247 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: n A deaxaribo nucleic acid at the crime scene, on 248 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: the sheet of the murder weapon underneath a victim, and 249 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: they're pleading what they don't want the bother of going 250 00:16:55,520 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: to trial. I just all along. I have been to 251 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: them in court. I've been watching everything they do. They 252 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,239 Speaker 1: seem like they were in it wholeheartedly. But now at 253 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: the eleventh hour, basically on the eve of trial, they 254 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: take a plea, a plea that infuriates, that destroys the victims' families. Why. 255 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: I cannot think of a single reason why. You know what, 256 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: let's have a little refresher joining US doctor Kendall Crown's 257 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: chief medical Examiner, Tyrant County. That's fort Worth. Never a 258 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: lack of business there. He is the esteemed lecturer at 259 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: the Burnett School of Medicine, and he is a star 260 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: of podcast Mayhem in the Morgue. Doctor Kendall Crowns, could 261 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: you explain how these four young students with their lives 262 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: before them at college, Like, you know what I'm going 263 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: through right now with the twins trying to get in college. 264 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: They're entering their senior year of high school right now. 265 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: Which one is the best, which one would help them, 266 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: which one would be better for each one of them? 267 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 1: Which one is a safe campus? And when you get 268 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: them there, you're like, oh, thank you Lord in heaven. 269 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 1: They're going to have a good life. This is all 270 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: I can do to ensure them that they'll be educated 271 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: and they'll be able to make their way in the world. 272 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: They're not going to be digging a ditch for Pete's sake, 273 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: hurting their back, breaking their limbs and they're stabbed dead 274 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: in their beds now evidence that one of the girls 275 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 1: tried to run for her life and was stabbed on 276 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: the stairwell. What happened physically to these victims, Doctor Kendall Crowns. 277 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 8: So each of the victims has multiple stab wounds about 278 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 8: their body. And the problem with stab wounds is one 279 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 8: stab wound isn't necessarily going to incapacitate you right away, 280 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 8: so there will be kind of a running fight. The 281 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 8: rules will try and fight back, they may grab the 282 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 8: knife in a last ditch attempt to stop the stabbing, 283 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 8: but they receive multiple stab wounds each and that means 284 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 8: each one of those stab wounds created pain and suffering 285 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 8: that ultimately resulted in their death. And the one that 286 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 8: got up and ran, that meant she was pursued through 287 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 8: the hallway with the fear of this individual coming after 288 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 8: her and then finally getting up on her and then 289 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 8: finishing her off by stabbing her again multiple times. So 290 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 8: every one of them suffered quite a bit because stabbing 291 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 8: cases are usually quite horrific and have a lot of 292 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 8: violence associated with them. 293 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: Daughtor Kimmel Crowns, You really gave me the airbrushed version 294 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: of that. A lot of pain, Yeah, I know, there's 295 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: a lot of pain. They're stabed dead. They're practically somnambulant, 296 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: half asleep, half awake, they can't breathe, their lungs fill 297 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: up with blood. There's stab wounds on their legs, all 298 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: of this somehow deriving from Coburger's bizarre fetishes about raping 299 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: women that are drug passed out or asleep. What was 300 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: their deaths? What were their deaths like? 301 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 8: So their deaths would be basically, they're losing blood over 302 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 8: a period of time. They've got the multiple stab wounds, 303 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 8: They're bleeding internally, their chest cavities are filling up with blood. 304 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 8: If the lungs are involved, which I'm sure there were 305 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 8: several of them that had the lungs involved, they're coughing 306 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 8: up blood reswallowing it as they're slowly slipping into unconsciousness. 307 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 8: In individuals where the chest cavity is compromised, that it'll 308 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 8: fill up with blood and it'll make it hard to 309 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 8: breathe and essentially you're drowning in your own blood at 310 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 8: that moment. 311 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: Doctor Kimmel Crown's you're absolutely correct, And I hope that 312 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: when you were teaching all of those medical students at 313 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: the Burnett School of Medicine that you explain to them 314 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: what crime victims lived through at the time of their death. 315 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: And it's not all clinical lives were snuffed out that 316 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: night and for what to fulfill Brian Coburger's weird fantasies. 317 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: How do we know about them? Because they were found 318 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: on a search engine raping women asleep, passed out, drugged, incapacitated. 319 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace joining me now. Joseph Scott Morgan, 320 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My 321 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon and a hit series Body Bags with 322 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, everything that doctor Kendall Crowns 323 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: said is true and more. What happened that night, Joe Scott. 324 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 4: This individual gained access to this house, Nancy, I truly 325 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 4: believe in my heart of hearts, and no one will 326 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 4: ever convince me otherwise that he laid in wait. He 327 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 4: had observed this house, he looked for points of entry, 328 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 4: and then, for whatever reason, at that particular time, immediately 329 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 4: after Xanna had collected that food order, he decided to 330 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 4: make entry, and he was purposed to do what he did, 331 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 4: ascending I believe to that top floor. First went in 332 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 4: and attacked those two girls in that room. He attacked 333 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 4: one to the point where she was deceased at the 334 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 4: door and was blocking the ability for the other young 335 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 4: lady to egress out of that room. So he's got 336 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 4: them essentially trapped in there, and he's moving back and 337 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 4: forth between them, perhaps wielding this knife. And this knife, 338 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 4: for folks that haven't haven't been around a k bar 339 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 4: is very robust. I mean, it is a killing knife. 340 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, developed by the Marine Corps. 341 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 4: Nancy Day actually had a field manual that taught combat 342 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 4: tactics in what CQB close quarter combat with this knife, 343 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 4: and this is the weapon of choice here allegedly that 344 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 4: he wielded against both of them. One of the newest 345 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 4: turns in this whole thing back to Xana is that 346 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 4: you know, we were told wrongly by the corner. I 347 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 4: think two days afterwards she gave a press conference or 348 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 4: spoke to a reporter where she said that they all 349 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 4: appeared to be sleep in the bed. No, this was 350 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 4: a dynamic situation. Something drew or upstairs. And if now 351 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 4: we are to believe what happens, Xanna was attacked on 352 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 4: that staircase, and of course we know that her boyfriend 353 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 4: Ethan downstairs was equally attacked. We had heard or report 354 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 4: earlier that not only may he have been stabbed, but 355 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 4: also his throat had been slashed an in size one 356 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,719 Speaker 4: which adds a completely different level to all of this. 357 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 4: The brutality of this. You can't take the measure of it. 358 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 4: You can, you can in the morgue, obviously, but when 359 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 4: you contextualize these bodies at the scene and you see 360 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 4: the blood deposition and the struggle, maybe broken things, knocked 361 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 4: over furniture, you get the full force of this. And 362 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 4: you know what, Nancy, I'm so disappointed because I don't 363 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 4: know its family will ever truly hear about this. I 364 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 4: don't know that we'll ever know truly what happened that 365 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 4: night in that environment unless he's compelled to allocut. 366 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: But we have to She's not waking up whatever. 367 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 5: Pretty address of the emergency lead. 368 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: One one to two King Drugs Emergency. Then and now, 369 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: as the victims' families reeling over a backdoor deal done 370 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: without their consent, where Brian Coburger pleads guilty and escapes 371 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 1: any possibility of the death penalty. Look, people are divided. 372 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: Death penalty, no death penalty, but it should at least 373 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: go to a jury. The victims' families should at least 374 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: know it went to a jury, then win or lose. 375 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: At least the state did everything it could possibly do 376 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: this as night Marrish scenarios play out about what Idaho 377 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: killer Brian Coburger will now do since he has been 378 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: spared the death penalty, straight out to renounced psychologists specializing 379 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: in forensic psychology, doctor John Adelatory, nothing will preclude him, 380 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: you know. Right now, of course, doctor Dilatory, he the 381 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: devil is gnashing his teeth and twitching his tail, rubbing 382 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: his hands together in glee because tonight a deal with 383 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: the devil has been made, a plea deal with Brian Coper. 384 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: It tastes like dirt in my mouth right now, dirt. 385 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: I never thought the state would do this. I thought 386 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: remote possibility they might lose, but they would have gone 387 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: down fighting. Sweaty, dirty, bloody, bruised, but fighting. That's what 388 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: it means to be a trial lawyer. If you're not 389 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: up for it, then get out of the ring, throwing 390 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: the towel. Nothing will prohibit Brian Coburger from lounging in 391 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: his private cell, riding his online girlfriends, writing his memoirs, 392 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: making money off his art. I almost feel like I'm 393 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: going to be sick. Explain night marriage scenarios spinning out 394 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: in my mind about how he will be cuddled, he 395 00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,160 Speaker 1: will be treated like a hero behind. 396 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 9: I'm already sick, Nancy. This was done in the shadows 397 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 9: in the night. I mean for what, for what reason? 398 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 9: I mean, all they got was the death penalty off 399 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 9: the table. That's the only thing that this plea deal 400 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 9: has done. So then why do it at all? If 401 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 9: you're going to do it, you should have done it 402 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 9: at the very, very very beginning of all of this. 403 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 9: But instead, now it seems the prosecution is either too 404 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 9: cheapest or too cheap to actually want to engage in 405 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 9: this trial. And that is the second offense, right, This 406 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 9: is the secondary victimization of this entire family. 407 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. I hate thinking back on my fiance's martyer. 408 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: I don't like it. I try not to do it. 409 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: When I go speak or in certain scenarios, I know 410 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to be asked, and I'm prepared, I'm stealed. 411 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: But when I think back, I know the prosecutors did 412 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: all they could. I know that, and I knew nothing. 413 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: I had never even been in a courtroom until I 414 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: went and took that witness stand. But I know they 415 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: did all they could, and that is what I promised 416 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: every victim I ever represented. I might lose, but you 417 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: can know I will do everything I can do for 418 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: you and your loved one that you lost. I will 419 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: do it all within the bounds of ethics. I will 420 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: do it all. Now he Coburger will be immortalized. I mean, 421 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: you know what immortalized like Bundy. We're still talking about 422 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy and how brilliant he was. He's a psychopathic killer, perv. 423 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: That's what he was. And now Coburger will wear the crown. 424 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 6: What a disgusting twist if this person just destroyed these 425 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 6: four beautiful children's lives but saved his own. But needs, 426 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 6: as you have said so many times, if you dance 427 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 6: with the devil, he will lead. And trust me, Brian 428 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 6: coberg Or has not done this for any reason but 429 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 6: a self serving one. 430 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: Is she breathing? No? Okay, you know there's the old 431 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: phrase there ain't no justice, and that is how I 432 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: feel tonight. There ain't no justice, at least for Pete's sake. 433 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: Take it to a jury, let them decide. But the 434 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: family instead gets this letter quote. We cannot fathom the 435 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: toll this case has taken on your family. Really, then, 436 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: why did you do a deal behind their backs. They 437 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: told you they didn't want this, but you did it anyway. 438 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: Brian Cobert now escapes the death penalty in a deal 439 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: with the devil, and that devil would be Brian Cooberger 440 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: to Philip Dubay, joining me veteran trial lawyer out of 441 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: la What many witnesses and victims want in a court 442 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: room or answers will never have that because you cannot 443 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: force the defendant to elocute speak and explain in court. 444 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: You may be able to keep them from taking an 445 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: Alfred plea, which means I'll take my punishment, but I'm 446 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: never going to say I did it. You can withhold 447 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: a plea deal if all they'll plea is by Alfred Hgln, 448 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: you will admit you did it in front of the victims. 449 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: But you cannot force a defendant to elocute speak explain. 450 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 7: Depends on the terms of the plea deal. Absolutely you can. 451 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 7: You can absolutely insist as a prosecutor that he take 452 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 7: to the microphone and explain step by step everything that 453 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 7: he did on the night of the homicides. He can 454 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 7: explain what motivated him, how he obtained the deadly weapon, 455 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 7: how he lied and wait and how he then later 456 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 7: disposed of the weapon, and how he then later tried 457 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 7: to reorder a sheath, and how he freaked out when 458 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 7: he found out that DNA was found on that sheet. 459 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 7: It can all come in through an allocution. There is 460 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 7: no prohibition against it, and frankly I don't think that 461 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 7: this is ult from it. 462 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: But if the defendant insists he will not allocute, cannot 463 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: be forced to an exactly deal. Like let's just say 464 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: a witness gets a subpoena. The witness comes into court. 465 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: If the witness refuses to testify, unless they've got a 466 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: Fifth Amendment right or some sort or some privilege, they 467 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: can be forced to testify, or they can be sent 468 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: to jail until they and give them time to think 469 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: about it. If the defendant doesn't want to allocute, he 470 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: may lose a deal, but he cannot be forced to alocute. 471 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: He cannot be forced to explain to anybody anything. And 472 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: where this leaves me straight out to doctor John Delatory 473 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: is the victims never knowing what happened. I know what 474 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: happened when Keith was murdered. It's been all twisted up 475 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: in the media, but I know what happened. Keith left 476 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: a construction site. He was a geology student. He left 477 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: a construction site on a summer job to go get 478 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: everybody else's soft drinks because it was a remote site. 479 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: And when he pulled back in, he was gunned down. 480 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: He was driving the company truck in the boss's truck, 481 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: and a disgruntled employee came up and opened fire on 482 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: the truck and it killed him. He was shot five 483 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: times in the face, of the neck, the back, and 484 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: the head. That's what happened. I know that there was 485 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: a trial. They will never have that piece to elatory. 486 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: They will never such piece as it is. They'll never 487 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: have that. 488 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 9: No, and we're not going to talk about closure. And 489 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 9: you know, all different kinds of experts can all talk 490 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 9: about in cells and all different kinds of nonsense. But 491 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 9: what the family wants is what's actual and factual. They 492 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 9: don't want closures so much as they want the information. 493 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 9: They want to know the answer, why why did you 494 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 9: do this? Why did you do this? 495 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 4: Then? 496 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 9: Why did you choose my family? Why did you choose 497 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 9: to do this thing and hurt so many people? 498 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace and Eerie, A haunting selfie 499 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: emerges Oh, there you go. Brian Heiberger, dress like Ted 500 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 1: Buddy mister button down Oxford shirt. I've got a black 501 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: hoodie and I don't take freaky selfies in it. Joining 502 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: me an All Star panel to Jesseice Scott Morgan, profess Forensics, 503 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University and Star Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. 504 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, I'm stunned. I'm reeling. I feel numb. When 505 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: I heard this, I felt like I got kicked in 506 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 1: the stomach. At first I thought it was a joke. 507 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 4: I felt the same way. I literally I think I 508 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 4: got like five techs simultaneously, including from my mother. This 509 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 4: group of people that he claimed that he was part 510 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,839 Speaker 4: of relative to the world of criminology, where he spent 511 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 4: all this time as an undergraduate Masters free level student 512 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 4: studying under people, and now he's gone out to Washington 513 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 4: State and the tool that he created in order to 514 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 4: question people with trying to dig into their lives and 515 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 4: prison relative to thinking about crimes, Nancy, He's now officially 516 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 4: going to be part of that world. And I bet you, 517 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 4: I bet you my next paycheck that upon arrival at 518 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 4: the State penitentiary he's going to have mail. He's going 519 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 4: to have mail from the same group of people that 520 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 4: he claimed that he was going to be a part of. 521 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 4: And they're going to have questionnaires for him. People are 522 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 4: going to want to come and interview them him, and 523 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 4: they're going to do it under the guys, under the 524 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,320 Speaker 4: guys of academic research. It's not an enjoyable thing to 525 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 4: be in general pop. But I'm telling you he just 526 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 4: like bt K when he allocuted. You could see in 527 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 4: his eyes that he enjoyed that recalling every single detail. Now, 528 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 4: this guy is going to be given a forum, and 529 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 4: I can tell you there are four voices that are 530 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 4: silenced permanently, and to even maybe a greater extent, his family. 531 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 4: These families voices have been silenced as well because obviously 532 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 4: their requests were falling on death ears. 533 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: And Cheryl, Cheryl McCallum and I have been through a 534 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: lot together. We came up together in the system inter City, Atlanta, 535 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: one of the murder capitals of the world. Cheryl McCollum, 536 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: founder director Callcase Research Institute, and star of a hit 537 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:12,239 Speaker 1: podcast Zone seven. Cheryl think it through. You have a 538 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,280 Speaker 1: boy and a girl. I have a boy and a girl. Okay, 539 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 1: follow this through to its logical conclusion. One of them, 540 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: and I hate to do this to you, one of 541 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:33,800 Speaker 1: them is murdered brutally in their sleep. You never get answers. 542 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 1: And then spin it out, Cheryl, spin it out, as 543 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: I like to say, follow it through to its logical conclusion, 544 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: and then you find out you just happen to be 545 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: looking online and bam. Notice alert. The killer is going 546 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 1: to be zoomed in to a big conference where he's 547 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: a star, and he's going to be explaining the inner 548 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: workings of the mind of a killer. He's the star. 549 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,399 Speaker 1: He's not getting payment. His payment is going to let's 550 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: just pretend his girlfriend that he's made behind bars his 551 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: pen pal. He's the star. People applaud for his speech. 552 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: I mean, why don't we all just get down, bowed 553 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: down to the devil, because that is what is happening, 554 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: because nobody had the backbone to take this thing to 555 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 1: trial and try the damn case, win or lose. I 556 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: don't get it, can you? Because you know this is 557 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: going to happen, right, you know? I mean, I've had 558 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: to look at Alex Murdog's shirtless selfies for Pete's sake. 559 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: He has a tap behind bars. This will happen. I 560 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: don't know how it's gonna happen, just the same way. 561 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: Did he get a cell phone behind bars he's not 562 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: supposed to have. Sure like that, it's gonna happen, Sheryl, 563 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: Let's talk reality. 564 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,359 Speaker 6: Reality is he thinks by taking the death penalty off 565 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 6: the table, he has saved his life. 566 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 1: Maybe so what that he was a complete loser in 567 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: every sense, destroying his own family, his parents, his sisters, 568 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: the business, his education. He had everything handed him on 569 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: a silver platter, and this is what he does. I 570 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:44,839 Speaker 1: don't care about him. What I'm telling you about the victims' families. 571 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 6: Correct, And that's my point. They were never going to 572 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 6: get justice even with the death penalty. If he were 573 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,359 Speaker 6: put to death, that is not in any way comparable 574 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 6: to what they lost. Is just more death, It's more sadness. 575 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 1: Tonight, Our prayers with the families of the Idaho murtyr victims. 576 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off, good night friends, m HM.