1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Back in December, we are all in awe after the 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: disastrous testimony of the presidents of Harvard, Penn, and MIT 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: when they testified before Congress. Remember, they refused to say 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: whether it calls for the genocide of Jews, violated their 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: schools conduct policies. Since then, we've seen the presidents of 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: Harvard and Penn have resigned. We also interviewed doctor Virginia Fox, 7 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: who is the chairwoman of the House Education and Workforce Committee, 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: who has been trying to hold these universities and colleges 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,319 Speaker 1: to account. We're going to have her on to give 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: us an update on what the committee has done since then. 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: She has launched investigations into some of these universities. We're 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: going to talk to her about that, why she decided 13 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: to do it, what she has learned so far. Also, 14 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: is it too late for higher education? I mean, we've 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: seen just the rot at some of these universities, so 16 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: is it too late to fix them to bring back 17 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: some prestige. Also, there's been a lot of reports over 18 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: recent years about just how much money some of these 19 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: colleges and universities are taking from foreign countries, including China, Russia, 20 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia, Qatar. The list goes on, So why are 21 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: they doing it and what strings are attached to that money. 22 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: We'll get doctor Virginia Fox's take on all of that, 23 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: So stay tuned for Virginia Fox, the chairwoman of the 24 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: House Education and Workforce Committee. Well, doctor Fox, it's great 25 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: to have you back on the show. I know that 26 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: you have been trying to work to hold higher education 27 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: to account and it's a big task. So we appreciate 28 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: you making the time to come on the show. 29 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: Delighted to be with you, Lisa, thank you for inviting me, 30 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: of course. 31 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: You know so you've launched an investigation into Harvard since 32 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: we last spoke. Why did you decide to do that 33 00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: and what have you learned so far? 34 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 2: Well, we decided to launch an investigation into several schools, 35 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 2: Harvard being among them, because of the antisemitic activity is 36 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 2: going on on their campuses and because of the threats 37 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: to students. We are very concerned about the safety of 38 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 2: Jewish students in particular. We're concerned about the safety of 39 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 2: all students. But as a result of the Hamas attack 40 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:36,839 Speaker 2: on October seventh and Israel's response, there has been an 41 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 2: enormous amount of anti Semitic activity on many campuses across 42 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 2: the nation and that is wrong, and so we are 43 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: doing an investigation. We started out by bringing in the 44 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: presidents of Harvard, the University of Pennsylvania, and MIT because 45 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 2: and we wanted the president of Columbia, but frankly, she 46 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 2: had a very good excuse not to be there, so 47 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: we didn't bring her in. But we are investigating Columbia 48 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 2: and we will be doing other schools. But the driving 49 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 2: force behind this is the anti Semitic activity on the 50 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: campuses and the inability or lack of willingness of the 51 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 2: presidents of these institutions and other administrators to provide safety 52 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: to the Jewish students. 53 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: Since you held that hearing, we've had resignations at Harvard 54 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: as well as penn Do those resignations mean change or 55 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: what do you make of those resignations. 56 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 2: Well, we didn't set out to force those people to resign. 57 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 2: That was not our position. They caused their own problems 58 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: by not responding properly to the questions being asked of them. 59 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: We wanted them to express moral clarity about what was 60 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 2: happening on their campuses and say that they would do something. 61 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: So it was really the public's reaction to their comments 62 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 2: that caused them to resign. We didn't force them to resign. 63 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: They again put themselves in a position that the public 64 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 2: and people associated with their university thought they should resign. 65 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 2: Now that is not stopping our investigation in any way. 66 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: And in fact, we're very concerned, particularly at Harvard, about 67 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 2: the person who has replaced President Gay. We're really concerned 68 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 2: about how deep the raw is at these institutions. It 69 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 2: appears to be very deep after our hearing. There has 70 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 2: been a lot of investigation about plagiarism on campus, and 71 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: so you know, people like the head of DEI has 72 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: been found to be a plagiarist, just as Claudine Gay was. 73 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: So there just doesn't seem to be the kind of 74 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 2: positive moral values on these campuses. 75 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: I think rod is the you know, the right word 76 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,559 Speaker 1: to use, you know when you're talking. You know, popped 77 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: in my mind and then you used it as well. 78 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: You know, we look at how woke higher education has become. 79 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: Is it too late to save it? 80 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: There are a lot of institutions that are doing a 81 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 2: good job. I don't know that it's too late to 82 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 2: save it, but I do think that we have to 83 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 2: look at these institutions in a very different way. I 84 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 2: no longer will use the word elite to describe any 85 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 2: of these institutions. They are the wealthiest institutions in this country. 86 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 2: Wealth does not connote goodness, and so you can't make 87 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 2: that an equal situation. They ought to be the best 88 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 2: campuses in our country because of the wealth that they have, 89 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 2: and shame on them for not using the money that's 90 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: been given to them by their alumni to not be 91 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 2: the best institutions in the country. They're living off of 92 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 2: unearned reputations, in my opinion, and this is forcing people 93 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 2: to look at them. They're enrollment figures are now we 94 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 2: think that is fabulous. I think it's going to take 95 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 2: a real revolution of people not going there or revealing 96 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 2: how bad it is. It's going to take a lot 97 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: to make these institutions change in the way that they 98 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 2: should change well. 99 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: And that's kind of the thing is, you know, are 100 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: they still the best? I mean, you even look at 101 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: graduate programs, like some medical schools trying to you know, 102 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: get rid of the MCAT or to emphasize its importance, 103 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: and you know, so are these previously elite institutions still elite? 104 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 2: I don't think they're elite at all. And if you 105 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: talking about men's schools, we have written to the men's 106 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: school accreditors and said, you know, you've got to stop 107 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 2: pushing the DEI issue there. We want people going to 108 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: all of these programs who are the best. We don't 109 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 2: need to have boxes that need to be checked. If 110 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 2: I'm going to a physician, I want the very best 111 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 2: physician I can get. I don't want to worry about 112 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 2: whether I'm getting a female, or a minority or a white. 113 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 2: I want the best person. And that's the way it 114 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 2: should be in our country. We have always been a meritocracy. 115 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 2: You know, I grew up in houses with no electricity 116 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: and no running water, and I have an opportunity because 117 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 2: of hard work and a good education, to succeed. Everybody 118 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: in this country has that opportunity right now, and we 119 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: should not have scales where we put different weights on 120 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 2: them for whatever category you fit. So what I want 121 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: to see is a return to meritocracy in this country. 122 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: If you're the best, then you should be recognized as 123 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: the best, no matter your gender, no matter your race, 124 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 2: no matter your religion anything. Our whole country is based 125 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 2: on equality of treatment equality of opportunity, and we cannot 126 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 2: erode that and be the greatest country in the world. 127 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick commercial break more with doctor Virginia 128 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: Fox on the other side. And I think in addition 129 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: to the DEI aspect that has taken over universities, which 130 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 1: I believe really started with kind of affirmative action, and 131 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: where affirmative action has led us, but beyond that, a 132 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: lot of these universities are taking money from foreign countries. 133 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: And you know, there's a Congression report in twenty twenty 134 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: about how colleges and universities fail to disclose billions of 135 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: dollars from China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and another report 136 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: at last year, you know, two hundred universities Harvard Cornell. Mit. 137 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: You know, why are these universities and colleges taking money 138 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: from our enemies and what strings are attached to that money? 139 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 2: Well, number one, they take money from our enemies because 140 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 2: they're greedy. Let's just face it. They are greedy, and 141 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 2: they build up there, they build up their endowments, but 142 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 2: they also waste their money on a lot of things. 143 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 2: And is it having an influence. We think that it 144 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 2: is having an influence well, this morning I met with 145 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 2: people from the Institute for the Study of Global Anti 146 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 2: Semitism and Policy. They're the ones that publish the report 147 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 2: I think you're referring to last year, and they see 148 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 2: and we see a direct link between money coming from 149 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 2: these nefarious countries and the level of anti Semitism on 150 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 2: the campuses, and so we're very concerned about that. You're right. 151 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 2: The Trump administration showed that colleges and universities were not 152 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 2: complying with Section one seventeen of the Higher Act, and 153 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 2: they weren't reporting this money coming in. And again, why 154 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 2: not they pick and choose the laws they want to 155 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: adhere to, and so the Trump administration held them accountable. 156 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 2: The Biden administration will not do that. Frankly, we don't 157 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: need the foreign money, I don't think. But if foreign 158 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 2: money is coming in, the American people deserve to know 159 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 2: who's sending it, why they're sending We passed the Deterrent 160 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: Act out of the House of Representatives. We had thirty 161 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 2: one Democrats vote along with all Republicans for that bill. 162 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 2: It's now in the Senate, and that will help us 163 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 2: identify money coming in at a very granular level, and 164 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 2: that will give us some idea if these foreign countries 165 00:11:55,240 --> 00:12:00,599 Speaker 2: are buying influence or even buying secrets from us, engaging 166 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 2: in research where they're getting information they shouldn't have. 167 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you would think they're just not giving 168 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: money for the sake of giving money. They're hoping there's 169 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: a return on the investment, or that they're shaping policies 170 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: or shaping things to some degree. I was also reading 171 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: a Senate investigation from not too long ago that the 172 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: Chinese government spent over one hundred and fifty million on 173 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: Confucius institutes in America from two thousand and six to 174 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. And it's like, why are we letting, you know, 175 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: our enemies who want our destruction influencing education to such 176 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: a degree. 177 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 2: And they were influencing And I will tell you years 178 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 2: before other people were paying attention to this. Our committee 179 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 2: was paying attention to it, and members of our committee 180 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 2: were paying attention to it. It took a while for 181 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 2: us to be able to have something done about the 182 00:12:54,440 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 2: Confucius institutes. And now though they're trying to be very 183 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 2: subversive about how they bring their influence in, they don't 184 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: call them Confucius institutes anymore. They try to call them 185 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 2: cultural centers and other things. They're still trying. And by 186 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 2: the way, Lisa, I think you probably have been following. 187 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 2: The largest group of people now coming across our border 188 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 2: are Chinese, and we know that the people who leave 189 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: China have to be let go. I mean, the Chinese 190 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 2: government controls the people there, and so there's great concern 191 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,719 Speaker 2: about all these Chinese coming all of a sudden. They 192 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 2: seem to be well dressed, they have backpacks, and we're 193 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: worried about that. 194 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: You know, before we go, what are the next steps 195 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: in your committee? What should people be looking for? What 196 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: are you focused on right now? 197 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 2: Well, we're going to continue our investigation. We're going to 198 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 2: continue to gather information. If the institutions do not supply 199 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 2: the information that we're asking for, we will issue subpoenas. 200 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 2: We're weighing that issue right now, and we want them 201 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 2: to know we're very serious about this. What's happening is 202 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 2: a serious issue. They are not taking the proper precautions 203 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: to make the students safe. They are not taking the 204 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 2: issue of anti semitism on their campus as seriously as 205 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 2: we think it should be taken, and so we want 206 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 2: them to know we are serious about it. The American 207 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 2: people are serious about it, and we respond to the 208 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: American people, and we're going to keep pushing this issue again. 209 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: We've done letters now to Harvard UPenn in Columbia. We're 210 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: being very transparent. Our letters are out there for people 211 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: to see what we're asking for. We're not being unreasonable 212 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 2: at all. We're asking for information. The school should be 213 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 2: able to provide us fairly easily. But I think sometimes 214 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: they think, well, you know, we really don't have to 215 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 2: take this seriously. 216 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: They better Well, we appreciate you taking it seriously. We 217 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: appreciate you staying on top of it, doctor Virginia Fox. 218 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: I know that you've got votes. We really appreciate you 219 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: taking the time, and we'd love to have you back 220 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: on soon. 221 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: Sure, Lisa call us Kent, stay in touch with us 222 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 2: and happy to do it. We appreciate your work in 223 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 2: educating the American people. 224 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: That was doctor Virginia Fox, the chairwoman of the House 225 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: Education and Workforce Committee. We appreciate her making the time 226 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: to join this show. Appreciate you guys at home. We're 227 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: listening every Monday and Thursday, but of course you can 228 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: listen throughout the week. I want to think John Cassio, 229 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: my producer, for putting the show together. Until next time.