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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck

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Speaker 2: and Jerry's here too. She even said, yeah, I'm on

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Speaker 2: right before we started recording, because this is stuff you

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Speaker 2: should know.

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Speaker 1: Reggae Edition, that's right. And here's the little thing you

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Speaker 1: probably didn't even notice, my friend, is we always clap

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Speaker 1: on the count of three when we go to record

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Speaker 1: so we can sink our sound. Here's a little behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes for you everybody. Sure, but I clapped on

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Speaker 1: the four. Did you just you know, make it super reggae?

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Speaker 2: That was pretty great? Yeah, because so what you were

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Speaker 2: doing was skanging, that's right, and skang is slang for gunn.

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Speaker 2: In Kingston, I'm Kingston in jam is the world capital

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Speaker 2: of reggae. It's one of those things where you're like, well,

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Speaker 2: where jazz come from, where blues come from? Well, it

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Speaker 2: come from here here. No reggae one came from Kingston, Jamaica,

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Speaker 2: and it was built from all this other stuff, all

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Speaker 2: these other influences, but there is no question where it

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Speaker 2: actually emerged, and that was Kingston.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I was playing golf yesterday with my

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Speaker 1: friend Justin, you know, Justin from trench Town, Justin from London,

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Speaker 1: which will also play a part. But he asked what

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Speaker 1: we were recording on today and I told him reggae

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Speaker 1: and he was like, did you know that reggae is

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Speaker 1: like fairly new? And I said, he was like, I

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Speaker 1: always thought it was like in the forties and fifties.

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Speaker 1: He's like, but true, reggae was like the late sixties.

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Speaker 2: You make Justin sound like a real milk toast. I

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Speaker 2: can tell everybody that is not what Justin sounds like.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, but that was you know, that's true. And

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Speaker 1: we'll get to all that timeline and everything. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: reggae is a is a I mean, on the general

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Speaker 1: timeline of music history, it's a pretty new form.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, almost just a little over fifty years old.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I mean I'm fifty five. I was born

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Speaker 1: in seventy one. So you do the math in.

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Speaker 2: An expert, I'm not doing the ma. Yeah. I think

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight tends to be like the year that

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Speaker 2: people pretty much put their finger on when reggae was born.

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Speaker 2: But let's let's talk about all this. Let's let's get

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Speaker 2: to the get to the beginning.

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Speaker 1: I guess okay, Yeah, which means we've got to talk

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Speaker 1: about Jamaica as a place, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because one of the things about reggae, Olivia helps

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Speaker 2: us with this, so it had to Livia. One of

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Speaker 2: the things about Jamaica and reggae is that they're like

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Speaker 2: a milange of different people and cultures who are all

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Speaker 2: kind of brought together, a significant number of them against

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Speaker 2: their will, and all kind of form the society where

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Speaker 2: it was all mixed together. And one of the things

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Speaker 2: that emerged was a real appreciation of music and folk

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Speaker 2: music that kind of developed. And it was very unique

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Speaker 2: because Jamaica is unique. I mean, every Caribbean island is unique.

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Speaker 2: Even though they have pecular histories, they all just they

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Speaker 2: they formed different milanges in different ways.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, different milanges because you have indigenous people and then

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Speaker 1: in the case of well most of them, you had

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Speaker 1: people from Africa brought over in the slave trade. So

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Speaker 1: in this case in Jamaica, that combined with like African

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Speaker 1: work songs and the you know, the European musical influence

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Speaker 1: that was there at the time they mixed together. And

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Speaker 1: in the forties and fifties, the first thing we got

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Speaker 1: as sort of a predecessor to reggae was called Mento.

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Speaker 2: Maybe that's what Justin was talking about.

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Speaker 1: No, he's talking about Mento's the fresh mint, the capital M,

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Speaker 1: which is sort of like if you heard it, it

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Speaker 1: might sound a little bit like Calypso out of Trinidad.

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Speaker 1: It's got banjo and like guitar. It's got something called

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Speaker 1: a rumba box, which is like a percussive thing with

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Speaker 1: pluck steel times. So Minto was kind of the earliest predecessor.

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Speaker 1: And then in the fifties, I guess the late fifties

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Speaker 1: and early sixties, because that was the forties and fifties

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Speaker 1: American R and B on the radio, which also came

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Speaker 1: from African and European influences. Obviously that produced what became

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Speaker 1: the more direct predecessor did reggae, which was SKA.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's when things took a really dark turn.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, Scott's I like all this stuff. I guess

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Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about like our affinity for it,

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Speaker 1: But it's not the kind of thing I listened to

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Speaker 1: like all the time. But I have my moments where

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Speaker 1: I will put on like for an entire morning, I

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Speaker 1: will listen to like old like fifties and sixties ska

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Speaker 1: and like super early reggae. I like the early early stuff.

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Speaker 2: Okay, cool, I can't really falter for that. I think

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Speaker 2: I just have a bad taste in my mouth about

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Speaker 2: ska from the nineties.

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Speaker 1: The Mining Mighty Bostones.

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Speaker 2: I'm not calling anybody in particular out, I'm calling all

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Speaker 2: of them out basically.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but that that early stuff is I think you

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Speaker 1: could probably appreciate a little more, like the Desmond Decker stuff.

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Speaker 2: Sure, sure, I'm sure I could too. One of the

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Speaker 2: reasons that that suddenly came up in the fifties and

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Speaker 2: sixties is because transistor radio start had become available. Before that,

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Speaker 2: Jamaica had basically access to BBC style radio stations that

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Speaker 2: weren't playing R and B, and so all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden they could pick up stations from Miami and we're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I like this stuff. And that was another thing too,

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Speaker 2: that that reggae was built on, where like Jamaican people

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Speaker 2: who are like I like this, I'm gonna pull this in.

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Speaker 2: I like that, I'm gonna pull this in so much

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Speaker 2: so that like the concept of sampleton in the hip

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Speaker 2: hop community is actually a lot of that comes from

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Speaker 2: this kind of mindset that reggae was born out of.

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Speaker 2: It was like I like this, so I'm going to use.

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Speaker 1: This, Yeah for sure, Like this episode definitely has some

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Speaker 1: crossover with the hip hop episode, and obviously when we

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Speaker 1: get to the rest of our I stuff, the highly

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Speaker 1: solassy episode. But you know, the technology of the radio

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Speaker 1: was certainly big, and also what was big was and

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Speaker 1: you know, you see this a lot in the development

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Speaker 1: of culture, like different technologies coming along and in this case,

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Speaker 1: just literally electricity being spread throughout Jamaica is what led

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Speaker 1: to something called toasting and DJs, now that they had

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Speaker 1: widespread electricity, could set up these mobile discos. They were

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Speaker 1: called sound systems and this was in and around Kingston

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Speaker 1: and the DJs developed this toasting I was about, say

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Speaker 1: tradition because that makes it sound more like something you

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Speaker 1: do at a wedding, but a musical style where they

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Speaker 1: would speak and sing over the recorded music, and that

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Speaker 1: that directly led to stuff like you know rap.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like do you ever listen to like reggae shows

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Speaker 2: on college radio or something like that.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's why a lot of times I play

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Speaker 1: on Sunday morning because that's when album eighty eight's reggae show.

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Speaker 2: Was right okay, so like and then sometimes the DJ

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Speaker 2: would just turn the music down all of a sudden

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Speaker 2: and say something, yeah, oh yeah, that's toasting right, And

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Speaker 2: it can be done well, and it can very frequently

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Speaker 2: be done not well.

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Speaker 1: It depends on how toasted they are.

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Speaker 2: Sure exactly, or what they have to say too, Like

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Speaker 2: you have to have something to say that should have

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Speaker 2: to do with the song or something important. It shouldn't

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Speaker 2: be like, you know, shop your back to school sales

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Speaker 2: at Target or something, and then you turn the music

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Speaker 2: back up real quick.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you hear these guys and it's the best because

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Speaker 1: I think our old beloved WFMU in New Jersey, I

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Speaker 1: think they had a reggae show too. Sometimes you can

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Speaker 1: you can hear these DJs are super super stoned.

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Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. I mean they're probably Rawstafarians, and so

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Speaker 2: then that's like part of their religion, you know, So

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Speaker 2: it definitely makes sense even if they're not. If you're

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Speaker 2: so into reggae that you host a reggae show, you

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Speaker 2: probably are so in like a pretty decent amount of

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 1: It's probably a part of your lifestyle.

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Speaker 2: Yep, they're like time to put on my game face. Right,

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Speaker 2: I smoke my weekly joint before my my radio show.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: So some some people are like, Okay, I like the

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Speaker 2: scot stuff, but I get really worn out dancing to it.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we could slow it down a little bit. And

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Speaker 2: what came out of that was rock steady. One word

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Speaker 2: probably one of the best names for any music musical

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Speaker 2: genre if you ask me, yeah, I'm with you, and

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Speaker 2: rock steady is it's It has a lot of the

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Speaker 2: same components and instruments and everything, but like I said,

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Speaker 2: it slowed down. There's much more of a focus on vocals,

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Speaker 2: so like there's like a you know, lyrics to the

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Speaker 2: song and the theme or something like that. And if

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Speaker 2: you're like, I don't know if I've ever heard rock Steady,

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Speaker 2: you definitely have because there are some hits that came

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Speaker 2: out of the Apparently it's just like a two year

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Speaker 2: period that rock City was popular. But the original tide

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Speaker 2: is high, Ain't No Sunshine as in Ain't No Sunshine

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Speaker 2: when She's Gone, that came out of the rock Steady era.

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Speaker 2: If you've ever listened to the Upsetters, like the early

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Speaker 2: stuff really organ heavy, everybody sings at once, so the

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Speaker 2: mic peaks and gets overloaded like that is that's rock steady.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And rock steady is what kind of

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Speaker 1: directly led to what we know as reggae. And when

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Speaker 1: they started that sort of heavy thumping bass and a

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Speaker 1: little more percussion percussive forward, that's when reggae was kind

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Speaker 1: of born, you know. I know. Olvia points out that

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Speaker 1: there's some other kind of I guess just maybe unusual influences.

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Speaker 1: And one was a school in Kingston, the Alpha Boys School.

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Speaker 1: It was run by It was a trade school and

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Speaker 1: it was a nun run affair and they had I

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Speaker 1: keep wanting to say it's like unusual, but maybe it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: But they had a really great music education program. And

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Speaker 1: there was a nun there named Sister Iggy, Sister Mary

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Speaker 1: Ignatius Davies, and she was just a big time music fan.

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Speaker 1: She was especially big into jazz and ended up having

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Speaker 1: a lot of like future reggae like you know, not

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Speaker 1: the Hugest Stars, although yellow Man did go through there,

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Speaker 1: but some early like ska and reggae horn players, especially

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Speaker 1: because of her jazz focus came through her school.

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Speaker 2: Right for sure. That yeah, I had no idea about that.

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Speaker 1: Did you No, That's super cool.

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Speaker 2: Though there's also obviously the Rastafari influence is significant, and

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Speaker 2: Rastafarianism was around before reggae, and reggae was actually around

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Speaker 2: before reggae musicians became Rastafarians, and it was if you

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Speaker 2: go back and listen to our episode in Holly Selassie,

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Speaker 2: it was his visit and I think nineteen sixty six

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Speaker 2: that just opened the doors to Rastafarianism and reggae being

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Speaker 2: like essentially hand in hand.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, And I thought we had done one

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Speaker 1: on Rastafarianism, but I think I put together an article

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Speaker 1: and at the time you were like, we've been doing

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Speaker 1: too much religious stuff, and I just tucked it away.

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Speaker 1: That never came back. And then when we covered yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is a while ago, and then we covered Highly Selassie,

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Speaker 1: it basically covered that well enough.

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Speaker 2: I think, oh it did okay, because we definitely got

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Speaker 2: into it for sure, But that episode was about well

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Speaker 2: a lot more than just that.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: But at the time, before his visit to Jamaica a

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Speaker 2: state visit, this is an official visit, the Rastafarians, even

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Speaker 2: in Jamaica were seen as just kind of weirdos. They

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Speaker 2: were on the fringe. They weren't taken seriously at all.

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Speaker 2: They were just a strange religion. And then Holly Selassie

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Speaker 2: came and essentially just by recognizing them, I think he

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Speaker 2: awarded medals to some Rastafarian preachers there. He legitimized it

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Speaker 2: in the eyes of Jamaica. Now all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: a bunch of people, including Rieda Marley, are like, I Rastafari. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and that's it's like, that's the moment that it spread

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Speaker 2: to reggae music.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and this was in the lead up to their

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Speaker 1: eventual freedom from the colonizers and there, you know, the

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Speaker 1: white supremacist sort of system that they have been living

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Speaker 1: under they call Babylon. So that's why I hear Babylon

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Speaker 1: a lot in the songs. And I mentioned Desmond Decker

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Speaker 1: and his you know, probably most notable song is the Israelites,

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Speaker 1: and that's what he was talking about there, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that came out in nineteen sixty eight, and I've

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Speaker 2: seen that some people point to that, or a lot

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Speaker 2: of people, I guess, point to that is the bridge

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Speaker 2: between rock steady and reggae. That song, and it's that

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Speaker 2: song you think it is like whoa the israel Lites, right,

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Speaker 2: oh nice and other things I have been practicing for weeks.

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Speaker 1: This is a little lower key, but you're under the weather, so.

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Speaker 2: Yes, thank you for giving me that pass. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: the song, I don't think it saysn't necessarily explicitly, but

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Speaker 2: the gist of it is this Rasafarian idea that the

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Speaker 2: stolen Africans who have spread all over the world and

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Speaker 2: their descendants are the true Israelites and they are trapped

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Speaker 2: in Babylon, which is white supremacist run Western world. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and that through self determination and deliverance by Jah, they

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Speaker 2: will be able to emancipate themselves essentially mind, body, and spirit.

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Speaker 2: And that's what Rastafarianism is about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And there was a drummer, a Rastafari

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Speaker 1: drummer name they called him Count Ozzie, but Oswald Williams.

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Speaker 1: He played on an early song in nineteen fifty eight,

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Speaker 1: so this is like, you know, still pre dating reggae.

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Speaker 1: It was a sky recording by the Folks Brothers called

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Speaker 1: Oak Carolina. And you know what, we're gonna be mentioning

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Speaker 1: a lot of songs. But if you're in a place

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Speaker 1: where you can like queue some of these up. I

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Speaker 1: encourage it because they're all great, a lot of this

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Speaker 1: early stuff, And that's kind of what I like about

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Speaker 1: it is it sounds like it was recorded in a

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Speaker 1: tan can. Like the recordings aren't the best quality, but

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Speaker 1: it adds a lot of juge to it.

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Speaker 2: I think nice. So oh, one other thing about Rastafarianism too,

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Speaker 2: So I said it predated reggae. I mean it basically

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Speaker 2: came out of the twenties and thirties when Marcus Garvey

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Speaker 2: predicted that an emperor would be elected or yeah, seated,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what you would call it when you

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Speaker 2: install a Look there's going to be an emperor that

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Speaker 2: came out of Africa, and people are like, oh, Holly, Selassie,

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Speaker 2: that's him. And so from that moment on, Rastafarianism was born.

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Speaker 2: And apparently dreads had been part of Rastafarianism as far

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Speaker 2: back as the nineteen forties. Oh wow, I had no idea.

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Speaker 1: What about white guy dreads?

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Speaker 2: Those came out of the nineties. I blamed the nineties

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Speaker 2: SKA revival for that too, probably.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, all right, that feels like a good

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Speaker 1: time for.

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Speaker 2: A break, right, Yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 1: All right, uh, and we will come back with more

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Speaker 1: on reggae right after this.

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Speaker 2: So Chuck, we're back. Yeah, let's hear it. Let's this

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Speaker 2: I threw to you. Really, I was being serious, you guys.

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Speaker 2: Here's another little behind the scenes thing. Chuck and I

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Speaker 2: decide on the fly, which one's going to bring us

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Speaker 2: back from break, And this time I said I was

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Speaker 2: going to go, and so we came back and I

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Speaker 2: immediately tossed to you. The reason why I did that,

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Speaker 2: apparently it was not that great of a joke, is

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Speaker 2: because I'm not super musical, like I know reggae. I

285
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Speaker 2: would pick reggae out in a like maybe two notes.

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Speaker 2: I could be like, that's a reggae song. Yeah, but

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Speaker 2: I can't mimic it, like and when I read about it,

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Speaker 2: I don't have any idea what's going on. It actually

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Speaker 2: confuses my understanding of reggae, which is dumb.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you're going to count me to mimic reggae

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Speaker 1: with my mouth, although I kind of just did with

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Speaker 1: that drum intro. Yeah, people are probably gonna be disappointed.

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Speaker 1: But we should talk a little bit about the instrumentation

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Speaker 1: because it's it's like you might find in a like

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Speaker 1: a rock band, maybe minus some stuff and plus some stuff.

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Speaker 1: Drums sometimes steal drums, which I was trying to mimic.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's your base.

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Speaker 1: You got your electric guitar, a lot of percussion, you know,

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Speaker 1: bongos and shakers and stuff like that. Bob Marley used

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Speaker 1: some cool like synth cynthy sounds and organ sounds.

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Speaker 2: You have it's my life on what it's my life?

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Speaker 2: Don't you fucket? Isn't that the Whalers?

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Speaker 1: I don't know that song?

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Speaker 2: Yes, you do?

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Speaker 1: Well, maybe I just don't maybe okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very cynthy song.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I just I didn't recognize the rendition. It's

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Speaker 1: just because you're sick though.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's because I'm under the weather.

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Speaker 1: Horn section. Sometimes you might get in a reggae band.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I mentioned earlier that it's the that

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Speaker 1: rhythm of reggae that is kind of maybe the most

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Speaker 1: distinguishing aspect of it. It's a four beat rhythm with

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Speaker 1: the emphasis on the second, the two, and the four.

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Speaker 1: Where's traditional rockets, it's not that. So that's why when

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Speaker 1: you hear that, you know that that chunking rhythm guitar

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Speaker 1: that don't chink It don't chink. That's on the two

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Speaker 1: and four, and it's you know, it's a real distinct sound.

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Speaker 1: And you know, as we'll see, you know, once they

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Speaker 1: this kind of transferred over to London, you had tons

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Speaker 1: of groups like the police and the Specials and Madness

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Speaker 1: kind of like latching onto that that sort of two

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Speaker 1: and the four. You know, it's a very distinct thing

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Speaker 1: for sure.

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Speaker 2: In the seventies it definitely caught Great Britain by the curly. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and Ireland too. We can't forget Ireland ever, we never

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Speaker 2: do no, of course, not even if we don't mention Ireland,

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Speaker 2: we still are including Ireland, that's right, but we should

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Speaker 2: say it separately because they're not great Great Britain.

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Speaker 1: We didn't want to rally anyone up.

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Speaker 2: So thank you. That's what I was trying to get to,

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Speaker 2: was you explaining the rhythm, because I can't. I have

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Speaker 2: so little rhythm that I can't even explain it verbally. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but that's essentially what you just said, Like that's one

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Speaker 2: of the hallmarks, if not the hallmark of reggae. And

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Speaker 2: then you also said that sometimes they have horns. I

337
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Speaker 2: feel like that's one of the main things that distinguishes

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Speaker 2: reggae from rock steady or SKA is they've really kind

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Speaker 2: of moved away from horns where horns were really really

340
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Speaker 2: important to rock Steady and in particular SKA.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So one of the other things about reggae too,

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Speaker 2: that's good to know that's easily overlooked. If all you've

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Speaker 2: ever listened to is say Bob Marley or maybe even

345
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Speaker 2: Burning Spear or something like that. Yeah, they tend to

346
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Speaker 2: focus more on like spiritual aspect self determination. There's a

347
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Speaker 2: lot of reggae out there that focuses on violence and crime,

348
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Speaker 2: and because it definitely emerged in that context. If you've

349
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Speaker 2: heard Bob Marley, you've definitely heard of Trenchtown. Trench Town

350
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Speaker 2: is a low income neighborhood in Kingston. I think part

351
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Speaker 2: of it's chanty. Even it's that low income and you've

352
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 2: lived in Kingston, there was a really good chance that

353
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Speaker 2: one of your only options was to turn to crime

354
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Speaker 2: to make a living, and so there was this romanticization

355
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Speaker 2: of crime that was going on in the area at

356
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Speaker 2: the same time that reggae was emerging in the same area.

357
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Speaker 2: So they are kind of intertwined. There's also like a

358
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Speaker 2: real like may it's really male dominated. Still today it

359
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,159
Speaker 2: is generally a male dominated music genre. So there's just

360
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Speaker 2: like inevitably a certain machismo that's still that's in the

361
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Speaker 2: background there. It might not be always talked about. It's

362
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Speaker 2: more dance hall, but in reggae even too, there's this

363
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Speaker 2: idea that you know, the man's in charge. It's just

364
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Speaker 2: how it is.

365
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, there's a lot of sort of

366
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Speaker 1: like I mentioned, the influence on hip hop and a

367
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,200
Speaker 1: lot of sort of lines that you can draw. I

368
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Speaker 1: think definitely more women broke through in hip hop than

369
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Speaker 1: in reggae. But this, you know, this violent context of

370
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Speaker 1: the gangster persona, a lot of it taken from American movies.

371
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Speaker 1: In both reggae and hip hop. The rude boy culture

372
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Speaker 1: was what it was called in reggae, but you can

373
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Speaker 1: see a lot of similarities there. The actual word reggae

374
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Speaker 1: probably didn't come around until nineteen sixty eight. It was

375
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Speaker 1: a song by the Great Great Toots and the Maytals

376
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Speaker 1: Frederick Tootz Hibbert. There was a song called do the

377
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 1: Reggae r E G G A Y. And when asked

378
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Speaker 1: about that, word. He didn't say like, hey, I invented

379
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,639
Speaker 1: the word, but he said that he was replacing the

380
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 1: word StrEG a s t r e g g a E,

381
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Speaker 1: which was like a raggedy looking woman. But he said

382
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 1: that had a negative connotation. It was like a derogatory term,

383
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,199
Speaker 1: so I didn't want to use that, so I changed

384
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 1: it over. And then there's another story where it was

385
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 1: r e y, which was a dance trend taken from

386
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 1: the terms for ragged clothing, and that turned into RGE

387
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 1: dash RGE reggae reggae, which was about like fighting or protesting.

388
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 1: So there's not like a definitive like hey, this is

389
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 1: where the word came from, but probably maybe a mashup

390
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 1: of those three things.

391
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Speaker 2: Well, there's another entront too, an artist named Little Roy

392
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 2: who the same year that Toots in the May Tolls

393
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: song came out, at nineteen sixty eight, he released a

394
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 2: song or maybe even an album called Reggae Soul, and

395
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 2: he spelled it the way that we spell it today too,

396
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 2: so it's just completely muddled. But it seemed to have

397
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 2: come around in nineteen sixty eight, the year reggae broke.

398
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a lot of that was thanks to

399
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 1: like I said, Frederick Toots Hibbert. If you want to

400
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,360
Speaker 1: dial up some early Toots in the May Tolls, it's

401
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 1: pretty pretty good listening. They started out in nineteen sixty two,

402
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: obviously Scott at the time, but their first big hit

403
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: was in nineteen sixty eight with the song fifty four

404
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: fifty six That's my number, great tune, and they had

405
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 1: a bunch of you know, not they didn't take over

406
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,120
Speaker 1: America like Bob Marley later would because this is the

407
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 1: late sixties, so America was consumed with all, you know,

408
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,199
Speaker 1: like the hippie culture and everything that was going on

409
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: musically there. So it would take Bob Marley in the

410
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 1: seventies to break through in the States.

411
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. But at the same time too, the suburban nights

412
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 2: in America and the mid sixties were into Caribbean stuff

413
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 2: like exotica and things like that, which is why we

414
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 2: have heard songs like the Tide Is High. So they

415
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 2: did kind of make its way over here. But like

416
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 2: no one has ever taken the world by storm, at

417
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 2: least as far as reggae goes. Like Bob Marley, he

418
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,199
Speaker 2: just went. He just became an international icon, like in

419
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: a very short time even too, as we'll see.

420
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure, so he's coming up everybody. That be

421
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 1: funny if we did a whole episode and did mission

422
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: just like, it'd be an April Fool's episode, Yeah for sure.

423
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,639
Speaker 1: But we you know, producers, just like all genres, like

424
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 1: producers and engineers, had a lot to do with its.

425
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: Not all music, actually some more than others, but definitely

426
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: with reggae. Those a guy named King Tubby born Osborne Ruddick,

427
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: and he was one of the guys, you know, kind

428
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 1: of a studio wizard that was like building his own

429
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: hardware to create effects, and he was the guy that

430
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 1: first started stripping out vocals to create dub plate and

431
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: that's what the DJs would toast over, yeah.

432
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 2: Which, as we'll see, sounds a lot like hip hop

433
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 2: and rapping right yeah, and dub music right and so

434
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 2: dub music. If I don't know if King Tubby was

435
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 2: the guy who was credited with actually coming up with it,

436
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 2: there are others, least Scratch Perry as another originator, or

437
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 2: dub Hopeton Lewis, who came to be known as scientists

438
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 2: in my for my money, the best dub musician of all.

439
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 2: But the thing that these guys had in common was

440
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 2: they were using like recording equipment, often cast off recording

441
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 2: equipment that they built their own rigs out of that

442
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 2: they were using essentially as early synthesizers, and it was

443
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 2: a lot like how Kraftwork and Divo who came later did.

444
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 2: It was like, I want to make the sound, but

445
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 2: there's nothing out there that makes that sound, so I'm

446
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 2: gonna build my own thing. And that's what dub music

447
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 2: essentially was based on. It was taking reggae and then

448
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 2: making it into essentially electronic music with all sorts of effects.

449
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I would love. I used to be scared

450
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: of doing these music episodes because forty five to fifty

451
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: minutes to encapsulate a genre is really really hard. But

452
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: since we've done it a few times, I'm not as

453
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 1: scared of it, and I would love to check new

454
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: wave off the list.

455
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 2: That's a good idea, we don't I almost said that's word.

456
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 2: We don't even need to. We'll come up with an

457
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 2: article for that. We can just go back and forth

458
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 2: on it. How about that?

459
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 1: That sounds great? I think you say ish instead of

460
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: the S word is what people do? Yeah, that's like

461
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: on the radio or something for sure.

462
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 2: Because I think it's the sound that it makes when

463
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: you scratch the record backwards at that moment. Is that it?

464
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I'm almost positive.

465
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: All right, So we're getting to Bob Marley. But if

466
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: we're talking about Lee Scratch Perry, he's one of the

467
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: guys in the early sixties who was working with the

468
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 1: Whalers very early on, and he, you know, Lee Scratch

469
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: Perry went on to have an incredible long career eventually

470
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: in hip hop and rock and like everything else. Yeah,

471
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: but I guess we should talk about the Whalers a

472
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: little bit. And if we're going to talk about the Whalers,

473
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: we got to back up a little bit and talk

474
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 1: about Joe Higgs.

475
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 2: Did you know who Joe Higgs was?

476
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: I did not, But now I'm like, I love seeing

477
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: the ten like the early tendrils being tendrilling.

478
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 2: Sure there might have been a Whaler's at one point,

479
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 2: but they we probably wouldn't know of them because Joe

480
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 2: Higgs taught them most of what they know about music.

481
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think I heard of him probably

482
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: in the Bob Marley documentary.

483
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 2: Now, I think that makes sense because you kind of

484
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 2: couldn't talk about Bob Marley without talking about Joe Higgs. First,

485
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 2: he taught not just Bob Marley how to sing and

486
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,959
Speaker 2: how to write songs and everything you need to know about,

487
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 2: you know, making music. Yeah, he also taught Peter Tosh

488
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 2: and Bunny Wayler at the same time, so he essentially

489
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 2: taught the Whalers how to how to play music. So yeah,

490
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 2: they might have been around because I know that Bunny

491
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 2: Whayler and Bob Marley were essentially raised together from childhood

492
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 2: as almost step brothers of sorts, and they met Peter

493
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: Tosh as teenagers in Trench Town. So they probably would

494
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: have formed a musical act, but they would have just

495
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 2: sucked well.

496
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: Joe Higgs was definitely the glue early on and the

497
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 1: mentor to them. He had a big hit as a

498
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 1: singer in nineteen sixty with Higgs and Wilson. It was

499
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: called Manny Oh, and it was again if you listen

500
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: to some of the stuff, you definitely hear like the

501
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: American R and B sound coming through, Like some of

502
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: this stuff sounds like James Brown at first, and then

503
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: like that reggae beat kicks in. But it was one

504
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: of the first Manyo was one of the first records

505
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: ever pressed and released in Jamaica and sold fifty thousand

506
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: copies and what was this nineteen sixty So that's a

507
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: lot of records for back then. And he is, Yeah,

508
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: he's the guy that like all these like teenagers basically

509
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: were crowding around just like sponges to everything he knew.

510
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was something really cool about him. Like he

511
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: was living in Trenchtown or at least Kingston at the

512
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 2: time too, and he would teach other younger musicians, Like

513
00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: he took time to do that rather than just folk

514
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 2: sing on his career and getting bigger and bigger, he

515
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 2: like took his his talents and helped other people develop

516
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 2: their own talents. Right, So hats off to Joe Higgs

517
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: for sure, just from putting the The Whalers together. But

518
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: you mentioned how the how like a lot of this stuff,

519
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: this early reggae in rock SETI it's how you can

520
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: really hear the R and B coming through, And that's

521
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 2: true with those the early Whaler songs too. If you

522
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: go listen to simmer Down, which came out in nineteen

523
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: sixty three, great, I think they had four albums before

524
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: they came out with their actual full reggae album in

525
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two. I can't remember which one it's called,

526
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: but it's it's you're just like you can hear Bob

527
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 2: Marley's voice, but it's total R and B. It's it's strange.

528
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:49,959
Speaker 1: They dressed the part too, like when you look at

529
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: the old like the early whalers that were wearing like

530
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: the cool like sharkskin suits and stuff, and they were

531
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: like styled out like the like the OJ's or something,

532
00:29:58,200 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: right exactly.

533
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, so little jarring when all you know about Bob

534
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: Marley is as a like a reggae icon, you know. Yeah,

535
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: but yeah, they all met together in Trench Town where

536
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 2: they all lived. And one thing I didn't realize is

537
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: that Bob Marley's father was a white man. Did you

538
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 2: know that?

539
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, his dad was His name was Norville Sinclair Marley,

540
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: and he was Jamaican. He was a white Jamaican of

541
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: English descent, and he was an army like a British

542
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: Army veteran, but was a plantation overseer basically, and was

543
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: in his sixties when he married Bob Marley's mother when

544
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: she was eighteen. And so you know, you hear that

545
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: and you think like a boy, right is, did the

546
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: worst thing happen? And apparently that wasn't the case. I mean,

547
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: there was a huge age difference, and I'm not saying

548
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: that was a balance of power by any means, but

549
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: everything I've read and seeing it was a consensual relationship,

550
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: and that he provided financial support for a while to

551
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: the family. But he was not like around much after

552
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: Bob was born. He wasn't like a real father figure.

553
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 2: Okay, gotcha, yeah, because I hear white, rural overseer and

554
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh.

555
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: No, well yeah.

556
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: But one of the other things that was a huge

557
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: influence in Bob's life was his grandfather, his mom's father,

558
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 2: who was a farmer and herbal healer, and so a

559
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: lot of the kind of mystic qualities or at least

560
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: interests of Bob Marley that just kind of he exudes

561
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: in a way. You know, he definitely got from being

562
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: his grandfather's grandson.

563
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. But as a result of that sort

564
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: of displaced childhood, Marley didn't get to trench Town until

565
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: he was a teenager, spent a lot of time out

566
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: in the country in Kingston, hanging out with his granddad,

567
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: like you said, and like you mentioned earlier, he and

568
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: Bunny Whaler. It's the cutest thing. They were friends from

569
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: the time they were like two and three years old.

570
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: And when Bob's dad died, his mom moved in with

571
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: Bunny Whaler's dad and they Yeah, they were raised like brothers. Yeah,

572
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: super sweet.

573
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: It is super sweet. And they met Peter Tosh in

574
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 2: a gambling hall, I think when they were all like

575
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: early early teens, right.

576
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

577
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 2: I don't know when Bob Marley met his wife, Rita,

578
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: but I do know they were married by the time

579
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 2: Holly Selassie came to visit Jamaica in nineteen sixty six,

580
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 2: and it was her influence. She went and saw Holly Selassie.

581
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 2: I think we said in the Holly Selassie episode that

582
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: Bob Marley didn't go, but Rita Marley did and she

583
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: came back like, guys, this is amazing. And she was

584
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 2: the influence who connected Rastafarianism with reggae, at least as

585
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 2: far as the Whalers go. And they were hugely influential

586
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: in spreading that connection.

587
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. And like you mentioned, It's Ketch a

588
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: Fire in seventy two is considered kind of their first

589
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: like full blown reggae album, and I think you're right.

590
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: I think it was like their fifth record as a group.

591
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 2: Mmm.

592
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: I like that stuff too. Like I definitely had a

593
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: Bob Marley FaZe in college, like literally every person on

594
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: planet Earth for sure. But now, like I really really

595
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: like that, those those early albums more than anything like that.

596
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: I you know, my Legend cassette that I wore out

597
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: of course in college like everyone else had.

598
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: Well, wait a minute, was that. I feel like they

599
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: came out with this a box set or something like

600
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 2: that around that time, and that's what got everybody into

601
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 2: Bob Marley again at that age.

602
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: I don't know.

603
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 2: Was it Legend? I thought for sure there was.

604
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: Well Legend was the the sort of greatest hits for

605
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: lack of a better word, Yeah, for sure. Yeah, Legend

606
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: was the one that like everybody had because those were

607
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: all like all the big, big songs, right. But it's

608
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: it's I really like that early stuff. And if you

609
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: go lesson, like I think Talking Blues is a compilation too,

610
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: that's the one where the songs are interspersed with Bob

611
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: like talking in the studio and stuff, and you know,

612
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: it's great. It's such such a thick accent, like you

613
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,919
Speaker 1: can hardly understand him, right, Yeah, it's kind of great.

614
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And even I was reading a quote from Shaba

615
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,439
Speaker 2: Ranks about how, like oh Man Saba Ranks like old

616
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 2: dance hall guys need to lay off of the younger

617
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: dance hall guys because they're doing their own thing. And

618
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 2: the only reason I know that he said that was

619
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: from the context of the article, like explaining that he

620
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: said that because they had a block quote from him.

621
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,479
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I have no idea what Chabaanks just said.

622
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 2: And I wasn't even listening. I was reading it. I

623
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 2: could not make heads or tails out of it.

624
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite. The Jamaican accent is one

625
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: of my favorite accents on Planet Earth. I love it

626
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 1: so much.

627
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 2: It's definitely up there was Scottish for me too.

628
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: You see the uh you ever seen the stuff on

629
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: the Internet where people will be like, if you want

630
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: to say this and this accent, say these words in

631
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: American English.

632
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: You taught me to say, Michael Caine, you say my cocaine.

633
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: My cocaine, No, my cocaine. Yeah, that's what I just said.

634
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: I saw one recently that was very funny, which was

635
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 1: if you want to say, uh, spice girls in Scottish

636
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: you say kind of have to quickly say space ghettos

637
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: in English.

638
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: Let's hear it.

639
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 1: So, like, uh, ask me what I did over the weekend?

640
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 2: What did you do over the weekend? Chuck?

641
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: I went to a concier and then asked me who

642
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:34,919
Speaker 1: I saw?

643
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:35,879
Speaker 2: Who'd you see?

644
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: Chuck and the space ghettos?

645
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that was pretty dead on, pretty good.

646
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: Huh.

647
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 2: What did you have to drink? There was drinker? What'd

648
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 2: you say?

649
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: I'm a non drinker?

650
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: You didn't drink any urn brew?

651
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: What is that?

652
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 2: Remember? That's like their drink. It's like some almost an

653
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 2: orange weird.

654
00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: Oh I don't remember that.

655
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's like iron brew, but they spell it

656
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 2: like earned.

657
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: Oh I do remember it. Yeah I didn't not.

658
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's something specific. I liked it. But it

659
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,879
Speaker 2: was like you could easily drink too many at once. Yeah.

660
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: I could see that. So I think that's where we

661
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: were headed.

662
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,919
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, what what you have when you put

663
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: together reggae reggae music and Rastafarian perspectives and outlook in worldview?

664
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 2: That's the word I was looking for. You have what's

665
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: known as roots reggae and what most people think of

666
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 2: as reggae, what they're thinking of as roots reggae. Bob

667
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 2: Marley and the Whalers roots reggae from Catch a Fire.

668
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,959
Speaker 1: On Yeah for sure, and you know Catch a Fire

669
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: with seventy two and like we said, that was their

670
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: first big reggae album, but they actually the Whalers broke

671
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 1: up two years later in seventy four. Yeah, and most

672
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,959
Speaker 1: of the like the college got into Bob Marley stuff

673
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: and in the legend stuff is all post official, like

674
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: the Whalers as the Whalers, and you know, all of

675
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 1: them went on to do their own solo stuff. Obviously.

676
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: I think Bob Marley had six albums after that until

677
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: we'll get to his death in nineteen eighty one, but

678
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: everyone did. Peter Tosh, who was He was the real

679
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: deal man. He had some great albums. Legalize It in

680
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six is a great one. Yeah, Equal Rights

681
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: a year later, and then later on in the eighties

682
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: he had a very sort of political album called Nuclear

683
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: warth It was really good.

684
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. I had this Peter Tosh live show that I

685
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,959
Speaker 2: cannot find. Drives me crazy. It's like every other show

686
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 2: from that tour exists except for that one, and I

687
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 2: can't remember what city it was, and he had a

688
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,959
Speaker 2: tape or something, so yeah, it was like a burned CD.

689
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 2: It was so good man, you could just listen to

690
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: that on repeat, right, Yeah, But yes, his his lyrics

691
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 2: were and just the whole vibe was way more militant

692
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 2: compared to Bob Marley. Yeah, so I've seen it described

693
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 2: as like when you put Marlee and Tosh together. And

694
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 2: also Tosh, by the way, was the like far and

695
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 2: away the most musically gifted of the Whalers. He could

696
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 2: play all sorts of different stuff. He was also a

697
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 2: good songwriter too. But when you put Marley's lyrics together

698
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 2: and Peter Tosh's lyrics together into one show or one

699
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 2: album or whatever, you had like a really rich, complex

700
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 2: album like when with really cool themes in it, right,

701
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 2: and I saw it. There's a reggae archivist, which is

702
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what you would go study in school

703
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: to become that. A guy named Roger Stephens, and he's

704
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: he likened Marley to Martin Luther King Junior and Tosh

705
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 2: to Malcolm X, and like they kind of had those

706
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 2: they approached things from those viewpoints. So Marley made the

707
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 2: whalers universally palatable, and Peter Tosh inserted like that that

708
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 2: kind of militant political bent that is also like a

709
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 2: big part of reggae. Two.

710
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think a lot of the ability for

711
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: you know, at least so far as Jamaican's were concerned.

712
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw also that, like apparently around the world

713
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 2: he's respected at least as much, if not more than

714
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 2: he is in Jamaica because he's like known to walk

715
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 2: the walk and yeah, like he was beaten nearly to

716
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 2: death by the police several times. Legalize it was banned

717
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 2: in Jamaica, so he took out a newspaper ad and

718
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: tended the lyrics in it like he was a He

719
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 2: was a cool dude for sure.

720
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. All right, so I think we should take another

721
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: break and we will come back and talk a little

722
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: bit about a guy named Jimmy Cliff right after this.

723
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: All right, we're back, take it away, Josh.

724
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,760
Speaker 2: Chuck, have you ever heard a song by Jimmy Cliff?

725
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like Jimmy Cliff. Hurricane Hattie was his first

726
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 1: big hit in nineteen sixty two. He was just a kid.

727
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: He's like eighteen years old, and he moved to London

728
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: and he got a lot more reggae after he moved

729
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: to London, and he was a big sort of proselytizer

730
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: for reggae, kind of took it around the world in

731
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: a lot of ways.

732
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

733
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: And one way he did so was in a movie

734
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: which I have not seen. I don't know. It was

735
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: one that's always been on my list. But The Harder

736
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: They Come in nineteen seventy two is definitely a cult classic,

737
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: and is was a big, big, not a huge like

738
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: American hit, but on the movie scene, like the film Lovers,

739
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: it was.

740
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:59,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's also widely considered one of the best soundtracks too, Yeah,

741
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 2: because it's a out reggae and the reggae music industry

742
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,919
Speaker 2: and Kingston and the way things are and Kingston and

743
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: it's a he's like Jimmy Cliff plays kind of a

744
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 2: bandit to an extent. Yeah, I haven't seen it either,

745
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: but it's I just know it's, like you said, a

746
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 2: cult classic, and that as much as you know, I

747
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: think simultaneous to Bob Marley touring the world and the

748
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 2: Whalers like that movie coming out and being seen outside

749
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,280
Speaker 2: of Jamaica, like really helped spread the concept of reggae

750
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 2: and what it was all about.

751
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, when you've got Ciskel and Ebert reviewing

752
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 1: the Harder they come on their TV show later, it's

753
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: spreading fairly mainstream, you know.

754
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 2: Two thumbs up if I'm not mistaken.

755
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. I know Ebert gave it a

756
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 1: thumbs up, but I don't know about Ciskel. We'll have

757
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 1: to go back and Look.

758
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 2: I know I've told you this before, but do you

759
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 2: know that Gene Siskel's stated favorite movie was Saturday Night Fever. Yeah,

760
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: and he owned the white suit that Travolta warrens Night Fever.

761
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was in our disco episode.

762
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,720
Speaker 2: Okay, but it's just such a great fact.

763
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,919
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know what, since that episode, I've had

764
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: as a copy pasted from the original New York Times

765
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: article that inspired Saturday Night Fever. It's been sitting on

766
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,240
Speaker 1: my desktop on my computer like ten years unread.

767
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 2: Oh it's good. It's just especially if you go into

768
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 2: it knowing it's just one big lie, it's actually even better.

769
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: Oh was it? I don't I don't remember that, but

770
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 1: oh I'm.

771
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 2: Sorry, which I could take that back, I thought you did.

772
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: No, that's sor right. I'm sorry, I'll still read it. Okay,

773
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: ten years from now, I'll forget.

774
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 2: Okay, cool, but you'll never forget that Gene Siskel fact.

775
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 2: I like to bust out every few years.

776
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 1: That's right. So we should talk a little bit more

777
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: about I guess we talked a little bit about the

778
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: violence that was going on when reggae was born in Kingston,

779
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: but over the years has just sort of been intertwined

780
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:06,760
Speaker 1: with a lot of political violence and violent clashes, especially

781
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: within the country politically, and you know, they were always

782
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:11,919
Speaker 1: in the middle of it, and Bob Marley was usually

783
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: in the middle of it trying to bring people together.

784
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy six, they were in the middle of

785
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: a clash between the People's National Party, which was the

786
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,479
Speaker 1: ruling party at the time, and their opponents, and Bob

787
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: Marley went to play an anti violence concert and some

788
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: of the people dragged them on that for like, say no,

789
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,879
Speaker 1: like you're siding with the P and P and Prime

790
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: Minister Michael Manley just by even playing this event. So

791
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: I think he'd never I think there was a lot

792
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: of frustration there, judging from the documentary about like trying

793
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: to do the right thing by bringing people together, but

794
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 1: some people on the opposition being like, you can't even

795
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 1: like talk to the other side.

796
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the P and P, the ruling party, they

797
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 2: were left wing. It was a socialist experiment, I essentially saw.

798
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 2: And one reason a lot of people point to why

799
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 2: there was so much unrest and violent clashes and all

800
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: that was because the CIA was running around trying to

801
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 2: destabilize the country because it was moving to the left

802
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 2: rather than the right. That concert, you mentioned that that

803
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: Bob Marley was frustrated about it, seeming like he was

804
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 2: kind of like a handmaiden or whatever to the unpopular

805
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 2: prime minister. Two days before he was shot, he was shot,

806
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: Rita was shot, two other people were shot in his home,

807
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 2: and after being shot in the chest and the shoulder,

808
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 2: he still went on and played that show.

809
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was incredible. Two years after that, in nineteen

810
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: seventy eight, he had the very famous One Love Concert

811
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: because there was still that divided political climate and once

812
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 1: again Bob Marley's there in the middle trying to make peace,

813
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,399
Speaker 1: and he brought the two guys together. He brought Prime

814
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: Minister Manly together with Edward I think Siga of the

815
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: Jamaican Labor Party, and that was a huge, huge deal.

816
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a very famous picture of them holding hands

817
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 2: because Bob Marley's making them.

818
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

819
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 2: So Marley actually died of a cancerous growth that started

820
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 2: on his toe that he didn't get looked at because

821
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 2: he thought it was an old soccer injury and he

822
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 2: actually collapsed in Central Park after a pretty great show

823
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:24,720
Speaker 2: in Madison Square Garden.

824
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, he opened up for the Commodores and apparently blew

825
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: the Commodores off the stage. And the real sad thing

826
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 1: about his death is that from everything I saw was

827
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: that that was he probably could have been very successfully

828
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 1: treated for cancer he had he gotten it looked at

829
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:43,399
Speaker 1: earlier on.

830
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw the survival rate for black men from

831
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 2: that particular type of cancers like seventy percent. So yeah,

832
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 2: that sucks. But he thought it was a soccer injury.

833
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: I think I'm trying to I mean, is that what

834
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 1: you said.

835
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't remember.

836
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 1: For some reason, I thought it had something to do

837
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 1: with religion, but maybe I'm just not remembering right about

838
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: that part.

839
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:07,760
Speaker 2: Maybe he did so well in the game he considered

840
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 2: it a religious experience.

841
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: There might have been a little bit of both.

842
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 2: So Bob Marley was shot, but he didn't die from that.

843
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 2: He died from natural causes. Peter Tosh and two years

844
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 2: after Peter Tosh King Tubby were both murdered by gunman.

845
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 2: That's how their lives ended. That's I mean, like there's nowadays,

846
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 2: there's a lot of reggae artists who you know, come

847
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 2: along over the years. This is not like there was

848
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 2: still rather limited reggae artists, so limited number. So two yeah,

849
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 2: major reggae stars being murdered is actually pretty significant.

850
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: Oh for sure. Peter Tosh's murder was brutal, Like he

851
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: had these three guys that busted in basically held him

852
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: hostage in his house and tortured him trying to get

853
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: money from him. And as people like friends would come

854
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 1: by the house just through the course of the day,

855
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: they would be taken in and held hostage and eventually

856
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 1: like just that was just a big, like kind of

857
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: crazy shootout and he was shot in the head. It

858
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 1: was brutal.

859
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. The worst thing about that, aside from the fact

860
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 2: that he was murdered. His murderer was a guy named

861
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 2: Dennis Loban, Leppo was what people called him, and he

862
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 2: knew that Peter Tosh had money because he had gotten

863
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:22,760
Speaker 2: out of prison and Peter Tosh gave him a place

864
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 2: to stay, fed him, took care of him to help

865
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 2: him get back on his feet. And that's how Leppo

866
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,879
Speaker 2: Loban repaid him by murdering him because he was trying

867
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:32,320
Speaker 2: to rob him for more money.

868
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Pretty brutal.

869
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then King Tubby was murdered in what they

870
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 2: think was a botched robbery in nineteen eighty nine.

871
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: Well that's essentially what this was with Tosh too, because

872
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: the whole time they were just trying to get money

873
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: that he said he didn't have at the house.

874
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got so all right.

875
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: So we mentioned London earlier. London is probably like the

876
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,720
Speaker 1: second city of reggae after Kingston.

877
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:56,760
Speaker 2: It's the Chicago of reggae.

878
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, because of what's called the win Rush generation, which

879
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:08,240
Speaker 1: is when Caribbean immigrants post World War Two from British

880
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: colonies and former colonies they started, you know, moving elsewhere

881
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: and a lot of them arrived in the UK and

882
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: that came over you know, their their music and their

883
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,959
Speaker 1: their culture and their food and everything came over. And

884
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: that happened in London and there were all of a

885
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:26,760
Speaker 1: sudden a bunch of well not it sort of depends

886
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:31,240
Speaker 1: like sometimes white London acts, sometimes Londoners that were black,

887
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: depending on the band. But like I mentioned the Police

888
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: and the Specials in Madness, obviously they were in ub

889
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: forty and you know those those ended up being like

890
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 1: really big bands. But they also influenced like the punk

891
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:44,280
Speaker 1: scene with the Clash and the sex Pistols.

892
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 2: Even Yeah, Johnny Rotten was heavily influenced. He went on

893
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 2: to found Public Image Limited and thanks to him Johnny

894
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 2: Rotten liking reggae and joh Wobble the bassist really liking

895
00:48:55,560 --> 00:49:00,479
Speaker 2: dub regae. Yeah, pil had a certain reggae, yeah, dub

896
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 2: reggae thing to it going on. So hats off to

897
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 2: reggae for giving us Public Image Limited.

898
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: And you know it wasn't just London, Like you know,

899
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: we can't get into all this like super in a

900
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 1: super detailed way, but it it. You know, reggae went

901
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: across Africa. There were like native born South African artists

902
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 1: that like became reggae stars. I know, the Ivory Coast

903
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 1: really got into the Rastafari culture for a while.

904
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, no for sure, and some some of them the

905
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 2: taking up that kind of political causes and calls for revolution.

906
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 2: Some have actually happened to become political leaders in their country,

907
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 2: like Bobbie Weene of Uganda or Shatawale in Ghana. Like

908
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 2: these are reggae artists who actually have talked the talk

909
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 2: and they're now political, whether they like it or not.

910
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, New Zealand, we're looking at you, because who knew.

911
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: I didn't know. In nineteen seventy nine, Bob Marley played

912
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 1: in Auckland and it kind of he kind of caught

913
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: a fire there and Maori musicians sort of adopted reggae

914
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,399
Speaker 1: for a while, and you know, they brought their own

915
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 1: thing like it you know, always happens when you sort

916
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: of adopted music. They brought their own vocal harmonies and stuff.

917
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 1: But they also, like everywhere reggae went that it caught fire.

918
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: I think people except in college dorms in the eighties

919
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: and nineties in the United States, there was a big

920
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 1: like identification with the politics, sort of the bottom up

921
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: politics of it all.

922
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that was kind of lost on the dorm crowd,

923
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 2: was it.

924
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we all like to think we

925
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 1: were down with the movement, but we just wanted the

926
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:40,919
Speaker 1: bumper stickers.

927
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 2: But I'm sure it definitely helped shape our world views.

928
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think it opened us up to other things.

929
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: For sure.

930
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 2: There are two other things that you can draw a

931
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 2: direct line to from reggae to current music. One is

932
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 2: hip hop, like you said, and that line seems to

933
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 2: go through DJ cool Hurt. It was definitely prominently featured

934
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 2: in our hip hop episode because he was actually born

935
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 2: in Kingston, I think, and ended up in the Bronx,

936
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:10,840
Speaker 2: and it just so happened that within a few years

937
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 2: of DJ Coole Hirk moving to the Bronx, hip hop

938
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 2: came up in New York out of nowhere, so they

939
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 2: think that it was him.

940
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he didn't come to the Bronxi he

941
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: was twelve, so he had a lot of years in

942
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 1: Jamaica to bring that influence. And yeah, like I said

943
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 1: that toasting, Jamaican toasting tradition came right along with them.

944
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and remember you talked about how Dub would strip

945
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 2: the vocals out of music so you had instrumental music.

946
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 2: He would do that with two turntables and a microphone

947
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 2: as Beck said.

948
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: That's right. Other places Panama, like Central and South America

949
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 1: had a big thing they called reggae. On Espanol and

950
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico, they had like an underground Spanish language like

951
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 1: reggae rap called reggatson that came along, and like you

952
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: can draw a direct line from that to somebody like

953
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: Bad Bunny.

954
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's even like that. They call Bad

955
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:07,399
Speaker 2: Bunnies music reggae tin.

956
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so.

957
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

958
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,760
Speaker 1: That super Bowl performance was so fun.

959
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, he really did set the world on fire.

960
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 1: Oh that was great. It was a lot of fun.

961
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, like he prefigured Earling Holland. He was like the

962
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 2: Earling Holland of super Bowl halftime shows. So, Chuck, favorite

963
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 2: reggae band of all time?

964
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:35,280
Speaker 1: I mean early Whalers for sure.

965
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going with Burning Spear. Oh yeah, Chuck. Did

966
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 2: you like the nineties SKA Revival? Uh?

967
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 1: Nah, I wasn't into that me either, My bag, I got.

968
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 2: Us to listener mail. Now I managed to unlock it

969
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 2: for us.

970
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 1: Oh okay, are we there?

971
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, because back in two thousand and eight, one of

972
00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 2: us predicted that we would bag on the the nineties

973
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 2: mid nineties Sky revived or in one of our episodes,

974
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 2: and that would trigger listener real.

975
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: All right, we got a short one here because this

976
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 1: episode is a little longer. It's just a quick correction

977
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 1: from Dave in California. He said, hey, guys, in the

978
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: eleanor Roosevelt episode. Instead of in flagrante delicto, which is

979
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 1: the common term Josh coined, coined the term in flagrante,

980
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:33,720
Speaker 1: in flagrante delicado, sure, which could perhaps mean gently a fire,

981
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 1: which Dave says is actually not entirely inappropriate.

982
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 2: Perhaps, Right, that's what I It's kind of what I thought.

983
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 2: I didn't realize it. It was delecto. What does delecto mean? Like,

984
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 2: I don't know on fire? Yeah, what does delecto mean?

985
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,879
Speaker 1: Chuck, I don't know delcto. Well, I think it means

986
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 1: caught in the act, which is what that means as

987
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 1: a phrase.

988
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 2: Oh okay, no, I see that. It's yeah, caught red handed. Yeah,

989
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 2: all right, but I'm fine, but I like mine better.

990
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 1: Well, I think a stuff you should know, a T

991
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: shirt should clearly be in flagrante delicado.

992
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, the gentle fire. Yeah, it's off touch, laid down

993
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 2: by the gentle fire with me? Baby, you got anything else.

994
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 1: I got nothing else. I hope we did reggae justice.

995
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 2: Oh well, I think we did. I hope so too.

996
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

997
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 2: I feel like every time I reassure you, I'm setting

998
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 2: us up for people to be like you guys suck.

999
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 2: You did a terrible job. So I'm just gonna say,

1000
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 2: I hope so too. How about that?

1001
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: Yeah? Actually, what usually happens is we get like, hey, guys,

1002
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 1: did a pretty good job. But also there's this, this

1003
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 1: and this, which is exactly what we want.

1004
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 2: Yes, but usually it's from experts and we love that too.

1005
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 1: That's true.

1006
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 2: All right. Well, if you want to get in touch

1007
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 2: with us, like Dave you said, yeah, Dave, Well, you

1008
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 2: can email us just like Dave did. Send it off

1009
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 2: to Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you Should

1010
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 2: Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

1011
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1012
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,280
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.