WEBVTT - The Science of Thulsa Doom 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:04.960 Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:14.160 Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to Stuff to 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:16.560 Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:19.480 Joe McCormick. And today we thought we would get back 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:22.720 into the science of a movie from the nineteen eighties 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:25.479 that seems to be something we've been into lately. We 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.480 did Science of Highlander two. It was a great success. 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.920 We did we we talked about almost the Labyrinth, not 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:36.080 Labyrinth the Dark Crystal Um. Of course. Months earlier we 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:38.720 also did two thousand one of Space Odyssey. Oh that's right. 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:41.400 Well that's kind of a different story there. But Robert, 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.000 you've been badgering me to pick a movie, and so 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:45.960 I was thinking. I was thinking. I was thinking, and 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:48.480 then I realized, you know, snake science is always great 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:51.280 to talk about, and we could we could also discuss 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.600 some great myths if we were to revisit a movie 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:57.880 I loved when I was younger, Conan the Barbarian the 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:03.080 nineteen eight two John Millie Is directed Arnold Schwarzenegger starring 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.040 take on the Conan lore by Robert E. Howard. I 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:07.840 think it's a very different take from what I can 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:10.760 tell I'm not really into the old literature, but I 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.000 was thinking, Yeah, I wonder how this movie holds up. 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.280 It's time to view Conan again, right, So yeah, if 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:18.360 you're just joining stuff to blow your mind, like if 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:19.800 you just clicked on us that, I don't want to 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.920 check out this science podcast they're all about. Um, yeah, 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.120 this is something we've been doing, trying to do like 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:27.039 one a month. So what we're gonna do is we're 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:30.319 gonna talk a little bit about this movie. And uh, 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.600 you know, it's it's it's it's it's actors, it's plot, 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:37.479 it's some of its more serpentine features. But we're gonna 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.440 use that as a springboard to discuss a little bit 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:42.280 of science, a little bit of myth, a little bit 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.760 of biology, all of that and uh, you know, all 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.880 under the you know, the loose heading of of the 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:53.480 science of Falsa Doom, Falsa Doom being the the principal 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:56.640 antagonist in this film. Now that I've rewatched it, I 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:00.120 agree with my much earlier assessment, which is clearly the 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.120 best part of the movie. The villain Thulsa Doom, played 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:05.560 by James Earl Jones. Now this is like, this is 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.560 like Pete James Earl Jones because this in nineteen eighty two, 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.480 he had been the voice of Darth Vader. So James 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:14.560 Earl Jones has like has like the greatest voice of 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:17.960 the greatest villain in genre cinema of the day, and 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:20.200 so they're like, why not bring him in to play 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:23.640 this this awesome charismatic cult leader. And he is still 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:27.400 just supernaturally intense in the movie in a beautiful and 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:31.000 hilarious way. Uh. Now, I remember I love this movie 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:34.200 when I was younger, for it's like epic silliness and 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:38.520 like the incomprehensible meat mouth Arnold performance in it. Uh. 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:42.640 You know, he's got some hilarious facial expressions, some hilarious 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:47.000 line delivery, but there's also a kind of beautiful operatic atmosphere. 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.959 Oh absolutely. I mean, I believe director and writer John 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.440 Eilius has has cited you know, Wagner as being one 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.400 of the influences on the on the on the film. 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.480 That's kind of not surprising having gone back and seen it, 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.160 seeing it more recently and now being aware that there 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:06.320 are people who sort of criticized it as being fascist 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:08.800 when it came out, I can't say I think those 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:10.920 critics are wrong, and this is, I think, not a 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:14.640 movie that one should let shape their values. No. Yeah, 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.240 I mean this is a film that I've I've loved 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:19.639 for a long time and uh and I didn't watch 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.480 it in its entirety for this episode, so it's still 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:23.760 been a few years since I've seen it. But I 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:27.120 went back and watched most of the Fulsa Doom segments. 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:29.480 Um so, so I'm not speaking to do a recent 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.240 rewatch of it. But yeah, this is this is a 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:33.680 film that I if you asked me, do you love 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:36.320 Conan the barband, say yes? If if if you had 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:38.040 asked me, is this is it a part of your 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:43.360 your core philosophical outlook and you should be worried if 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:45.760 it is. Somebody's right because we don't live in a 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.200 sword and sorcery world for starters, and nor should we 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:51.000 want to. I mean, this is a kind of world 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:53.240 where there is just a ton there's like all this 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:57.000 blockhead macho violence and cruelty. I think about one thing 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:59.920 that was shocking on rewatching it is how many scene 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.440 of there are of Conan just like punching animals. There's 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:05.680 like a scene where he punches a camel in the head. 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:09.120 I'm not sure why that's in there. Of course, the 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.200 the I mean, it goes without saying it's like the 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:15.000 textbook example of objectification of women in film. So the 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:17.239 treatment of women and it is just kind of vile. 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:20.400 And there's this like it's the movie is just greased 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.880 up and down with fetishization of some weird version of 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:28.200 masculinity and obsession with weapons, technology and murder. So I 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.279 don't know all the critics who saw the authoritarian stuff 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.640 in there, the weirdness of it. It begins with like 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.160 a Nietzscheck quote. So it seems that John Milius obviously 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.279 the director. You were telling me, he's the he's the 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:42.880 person that the character of Walter and The Big Lebowski 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:45.280 is based on. That's what I've always heard. I don't 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.279 know to to what extent, but clearly they look a 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:49.919 lot of like they're there. They're there. The look of 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.560 the characters very much patterned Don Milius. That made everything 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:54.680 click for me. I was like, this is a movie 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.640 that was made by Walter from The Big Lebowski. Before 0:04:57.640 --> 0:04:59.839 we go any further, let's actually just hear a sample 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:04.200 from the trailer, just to get it to remind everybody, uh, 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:27.000 you know about what we're talking about here, Warrior feel alright, 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:28.680 So we got a taste of the drama there, a 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:31.280 taste of the music. The score is is beautiful in 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:34.039 this film. This is one of the few, um you know, 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.680 you know, orchestra scores that I can really get behind. 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:38.919 I love the music in it. Yeah, And I do 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:41.039 think in the same way that it was sort of 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:44.920 a breakout performance for Arnold Schwarzenegger. I have read about 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:47.920 it being an important stepping stone stone for the composer 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.080 of the film as well. Oh yes, so yeah, obviously 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:54.479 we have Arnold Schwartzenegger as Roberty Howard's pulled pair of 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:58.080 Barbarian alongside other newcomers. Because that's one of the things 0:05:58.120 --> 0:05:59.640 to keep in mind here is like arnoldly have been 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:02.800 in virtually nothing at this point, um, and you've been 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:05.760 in some movies where you literally couldn't understand a single thing. 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:08.200 He said, right, so this was this is a big deal. 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:10.640 This this is a film that kind of made Arnold. 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:12.800 And then I'll you also have these other kind of 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:18.320 newcomers sandel bergman, isn't it uh? Jerry Lopez, who mostly 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.359 made his name and still has a name as a surfer. 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:25.159 And then alongside him he had veteran actors Mako, Max 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:29.160 Von Sido and then of course James Earl Jones as 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.719 Tulsa Doom. But I'm not to discount the hinchman in 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:34.520 this film as well. He has a couple of henchmen 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:38.120 and their rex Or and thor Gram and they're played 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:42.039 by s then Olie Thorson, who's in a classic in 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:46.760 every Arnold film, is this bodybuilder with this just just uh, 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:49.839 he's just got a face like somebody ate his lunch 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:54.479 and it stayed that way forever. And he he's he's 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.880 the villain in a really funny B movie called Abraxas 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.200 Guardian of the Universe and stars s Ventura. They should 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.679 have gotten Jesse Ventura to play a role in uh, 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:08.000 I don't think he was ready for it. But but 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.040 then the other henchman is played by Ben Davidson, who 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:15.400 is this enormous, uh like really haggard looking, mustachioed football 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:19.560 player and uh, and you know he basically another case. Really, 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:23.360 all these actors outside of Mako and Maximum Sido and 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:25.160 some of the supporting players, you know, there were a 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:28.240 lot of people that were brought on because they uh 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:30.240 you know, they had some sort of natural and or 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:34.239 physical charisma and uh and they somehow made them work 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.480 in the film like they they For instance, Ben Davidson 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:40.720 not really it was not really known for his acting ability, 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:44.160 just like looked like a tough guy. Um and he's 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:46.960 just grimaces a lot in this film. But he has 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.880 this one part where he always says, is you And 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:52.760 it's perfectly executed in this film, like like a few 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.240 there are a few times where a character in a 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.320 film just says a single word and it's played perfectly. 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.360 So that's kind of how aren't Schwarzenegger is right? I mean, 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:04.640 he's not much of an actor. I don't know if 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:06.840 he ever really became much of an actor, but he's 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:09.760 definitely not an actor in this movie. He's just he's 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:14.880 just sort of playing himself. But uh, well he's he does. 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.119 I think he does a good job in this film. 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.160 But at times it does feel kind of like if 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.360 I'm watching us an Italian horror movie where a child 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:27.000 is being menaced by a monster or something. The child 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:30.480 is screaming, and I start worrying if the child would 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:32.160 like they just said, we'll just go scare the child. 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.160 We don't have to worry about the child. Acting will 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.240 just terrify them, like to are they just really beating 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:40.160 the hell out of Arnold? And then that's how they 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.120 filmed the scene, you know. Um, But that's what makes 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.880 it hilarious to see bloopers from the production of Conan 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.960 the Barbarian where like they're supposed to be wild dogs 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.160 chasing him and they catch him and then they don't 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:55.600 actually hurt him, but he's like, so the basic plot 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:57.240 of the film is that it's it's set during a 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:00.640 time before the oceans drank Atlantis, in an age of 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:03.920 high adventure, and you have this young boy, Uh, the 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.640 young Conan Uh, and his village is decimated by this 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:10.319 vicious war band. His parents are murdered, his father's sword 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.360 is taken by the villains Uh, and the boy enters 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:17.600 a grueling life of servitude, labor, and finally gladiatorial combat. 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:20.360 Then he's freed. He finds a new sword and a 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.200 giant's crypt, and then he eventually crosses past with the 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.600 very villains who decimated his family, only now the leader 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:30.719 of that band, that war band, Thulsa Doom. He's reinvented 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:35.280 himself now as this charismatic cult leader, and so um 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:37.760 Conan and some of his friends they enter into the 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.840 service of an aging king, uh to free the king's 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.800 daughter from the snake colts clutches, and in doing so, 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.160 Conan discovers the source of his strength. Uh. He solves 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:50.320 the rule of steel, he achieves his vengeance. I mean 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:52.839 really it's basically a simple revenge story. But it's it's 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.560 one that is it's well made, it's well told. You 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.040 know what the basic beats are gonna be, but they're 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:00.680 they're well delivered. You could pretty much find the same 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.120 plot in any number of westerns. Are certainly in biker films. Oh, 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.480 I absolutely see what you mean with uh. With the 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.680 biker film, like the bizarre kind of like the the 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:14.800 idolization of the on the road, grungy lifestyle, this like 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:21.200 sense of fetishization of some feeling about masculine individuality and 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:25.679 like you know, freedom and will. Yeah, the outlaw were Ethos, 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:29.400 dangerous hippie religions, that sort of thing. Yeah, absolutely so. 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.240 Falsa Dooms snake cult has all these people showing up 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:34.679 looking like they're ready for you know, woodstock in the 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.679 late sixties. Uh, that's another way that I mean, if 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:40.400 you start to count them up, that you really do 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.880 start to notice all the ways that the film seems um, 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.040 I don't know. I mean, it's clearly like an eighties 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:48.800 reactionary kind of thing. Yeah. Now, I do want to 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:53.400 stress that I fully support anybody being able to just 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.439 set and enjoy Conan the Barbarian as Conan the Barbarian, 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:58.160 and I try and I try to do that when 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.120 I when I watch a film like this. But at 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.720 the same time, it is an interesting exercise just to 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:06.200 place a film within the context of its times, take 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:08.640 apart what it means, what it's saying. You know, what 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:10.760 is the one is the like the what's the basic 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:14.240 philosophy of the of the feature? That sort of thing. Well, 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.480 if one we're trying to be generous, you could say 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.080 maybe that like like when you read an ancient myth. 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:23.480 Ancient myths can be enticing and beautiful because they show 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:26.559 you something about a mindset from ages past, and they 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.400 show you know, they're imaginative, they give you a different 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.880 way of thinking. But almost no ancient myth that none 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:35.240 that I can think of, has like values that I 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.480 think are still good and applicable across the board, so 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:40.880 you could think about Conan in that way. But it's 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.480 also I don't know, I mean, it was made recently, 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:46.880 but it's supposedly said at a time of like a 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:51.800 lost past, before any historically recorded civilization. Now, one more 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:55.240 thing about the legacy of of this film is that 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:59.160 that obviously it had a huge impact on the fantasy genre, 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:01.640 the sword and sorcery genre, in the same way that 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:05.880 Roberty Howard's original stories were highly influential. But this film 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:10.200 in particularly also was just endlessly copied by various bad 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:13.280 barbarian films to rise up in its wake, including some 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:17.360 just truly wonderful Italian barbarian films. Oh Man, the a 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.920 Tor movies. I I just recently, you know what actually 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:23.280 made me want to go back and watch Conan the 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:25.439 Barbarian to see if if we could do an episode 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.120 about it, was that I recently watched a movie called 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:33.120 Your Hunter from the Future, which is a hilarious nineteen 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:37.280 eighties Conan rip off. Just like Leather Diaper Barbarian movie. 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.760 It's got reb Brown, the guy from Space Mutiny, and 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.800 all the Conan kind of stuff is there, but done 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:49.120 in a cheaper, less operatic, more hilarious, and more Italian way. 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.400 Oh yeah, I mean there there's so so many examples 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:53.960 of this the sort of film that I love, the 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:59.120 Death Stalker films, um, oh, the Lucio Fulsey film Conquest. 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:01.280 That's that's one of my favorites. I've seen that one 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:05.800 far more recently, and that is also a beautiful, uh 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:10.880 violent film. But because it's fulchy, it's gross. Well it's gross, 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:15.320 uh but beautiful. Before this episode, I want to focus 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.280 mainly on the idea of Fulsa Doom, not just because 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:20.240 he's the best character in the movie. And I will 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:22.040 say I think he's the best character in the movie, 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:24.720 not really in any way that's on the page. It's 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.960 mostly just that James Earl Jones is awesome in the role. 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:32.240 He he brings that uh that that Darth Vader gravitas 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:34.280 I hate, I just used a word. I hate when 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.200 people say I'm sorry, I said gravity tass. He brings 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:41.840 this power and intensity and subtle dignity to to the 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:44.640 way he delivers lines about the riddle of steel and 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.920 the power of flesh that normally would get a laugh 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:50.920 and I think even delivered by another character in the 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.600 same movie would get a laugh. But but Jones just 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.000 nails it. Yeah, And I think it's also a treat 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:58.840 for a lot of viewers may not be that familiar 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:03.520 with with Ownes his earlier work and his stage work certainly, Um, 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:05.079 you know, when you think of James or don't you 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.679 might think of Darth Vader where he's just doing the voice, 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:09.600 or you're thinking of films in which you had a 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:14.120 an older James Earl Jones, like more visibly aged James 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:16.520 Earl Jones. And this he's able to like really be 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:22.280 physically present and appear you know, physically strong and intimidating, uh, 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:24.160 in a way that you know you certainly don't see. 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.080 And some of his later films and there are multiple 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.680 scenes where he just stares into the camera and his 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:34.320 eyes look through you and through a thousand people behind you. 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.080 He's got like the million light year gaze. Yeah. So 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.120 it's a wonderful villain performance for sure. And he is, 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:45.200 you know, it's it's a I think he's a well formulated, uh, 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:47.280 you know villain. You know, there's not a lot of 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:49.480 depth to him. I guess you know you're not you're 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:52.000 not really connecting with him as a as a as 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:55.240 a human, in part because sometimes he's a giant snake. 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:58.040 But but well, it's also just not a subtle movie. 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.120 I mean, what's a worried about it is like, you know, 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.760 the open vistas and the music and the operatic quality. 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:09.160 I mean, the characters are quite flat and envisioned in 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.160 what I would say, is it kind of an emotionally 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:15.400 and morally immature way. Um like the you know, it 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:17.880 takes place in a world where I don't get any 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:20.680 sense that there's any good or evil. There's just like 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.720 strength and valor and revenge. It's a very like you 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:28.160 might find this familiar from some thirteen year old boys 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.320 you knew once. Well, you know, I have a couple 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:33.160 of thoughts on that. I mean, first of all, crom 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:38.400 laughs at your need for emotional depth in your characters, Joe. 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.120 But but also we have to remember, just going back 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:45.320 to the original source material, Roberty Howard Um died at 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.120 the age of thirty, so so all of the stories 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:52.200 of Conan emerge from you know, from his twenties. I mean, 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:54.560 and and uh, you know, I don't want to get 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:58.560 into the full biography of Roberty Howard, but you know, 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:00.520 I think, you know, there's a case to be that. Yeah, 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:04.080 these are these are films that did emerge from an 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:08.480 extended adolescence and uh, you know, and people people love them, 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:10.480 and maybe that's part of of of why. You know, 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.080 they speak to a sort of you know, adolescent longing, 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.040 this kind of classic teenage desire to be free and 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.760 control your own destiny. Well, this reminds me of another 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:21.840 air where you see the influence of of Conan and 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.240 Conan the Barbarian, that being death metal and uh and 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:29.000 certain you know heavy metal acts where this, you know, 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:31.240 the sword and sorcery elements and this kind of like 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:36.320 stark nihilism. Uh, do seem to be wrapped up in 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.120 this adolescent longing. Yeah, I absolutely see that. I mean, 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:41.680 there are a lot of bands that are basically just 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.160 Conan the Barbarian the band. Yeah, there's also falso Doomed 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:47.520 the Band. Apparently I'm not that familiar with them, but 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.120 I I had to listen to just a little of them, 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:51.840 get a sample of it before I went in here. 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:54.680 It's any good. Sounded pretty good. It's not death metal, 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:56.880 I want to be clear on that, but it's a yeah, 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:58.880 it sounded all right, maybe we can we can hear 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:03.240 from fans of Sodom the band, and you guys can 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:05.879 can educate us more on them. Well, they knew the 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.359 best character from the movie to name to name their 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:11.000 band after. Because one last thing I'll say about it 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:13.520 before we move on to the mythology and the science. 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:16.760 I will say I was shocked to read that in 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.960 reviews at the time the movie came out, which were 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.240 you know, they were mixed. It was like polarizing to critics. 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:27.080 Um Apparently a lot of critics criticized James Earl Jones 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:29.640 performance and they were like, this is you know, this 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:34.000 is unsettled. It's not tasteful. It's camp. And I was like, well, 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.399 I mean it might be camp, but it's awesome. Yeah, 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.320 that's why. I mean, it's like criticizing Rocky Harror Picture 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.359 Show for all. It's camp, but of course it's got camp. 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:44.880 That's what I came for. The camp. Tim Curry's really 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:47.200 over the top. You could have been a lot more stuff, 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:50.040 you know, I don't know how you can. Well, I mean, 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.960 every criticism of Conan the Barbarian makes sense to me, 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:57.439 except the one that criticizes James Earl Jones. Well, you know, 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.680 it's like another recent example that really has a lot 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:02.440 in common with kind of the Barbarian because it's also 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.159 a revenge picture, and certainly it's nostalgic for films of 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:10.640 this age. Uh Penis Cosmatos is Mandy, which it's also 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.520 a film that probably polarized audiences a bit. Some people 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:15.480 it seems like a film we either love it or 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.040 you don't really get it. I think one difference there 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:22.200 is that there's a much clearer ironic distance. It's true 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.199 with the with the creation of Mandy right. Well, you know, 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:29.320 whereas John Millius is looking to Wagner and other influences, 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.080 uh Panos is looking to the films of yesterday here, 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:36.200 so there's like a degree of removal. But but that's 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:39.320 a film where you have you have a charismatic cult 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:42.440 leader played by a terrific actor, and then you also 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:46.600 have the you have a hero that's most certainly more 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:50.080 an established actor and Nicholas Cage. But I don't know 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.040 you can make some comparison between like the raw visceral 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.159 nature of these performances. I guess, yeah, Well, Cage is 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.040 not super subtle in Mandy right, But it's a film 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:02.680 like both of those performances in Mandy the villain, uh, 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:06.560 the the antagonist and the protagonist. Yeah, they're both. They 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:09.360 both have a lot of frenzied energy to them, and 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.399 ultimately I wouldn't want it any other way. Absolutely, So 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.720 maybe let me sum up my thoughts. My thoughts are 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.240 Conan in some ways kind of great, still kind of beautiful, 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:22.320 still kind of excellent camp but also all the criticisms 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:24.720 make sense. Don't let your sons grow up to be Conan's. 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:27.440 All right, Well, we're gonna take a break and when 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:30.760 we come back, we're gonna jump into the meat of 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.439 this episode or episodes. Who knows how long it'll go. 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:35.560 Maybe we'll have to split it in half. You know, 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.199 we'll see how it goes here. But when when we 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:44.000 come back, we're going to discuss snake magic. Than all right, 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.920 we're back. So Sulsa Doom played by James Earl Jones 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.639 in the film uh as distinguished. I want to be 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:54.240 clear from Fulsa Doom in the Roberty Howard short stories 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:56.280 that Conan is based on, which I believe is actually 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.640 a totally different character. I think we basically got sort 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:02.359 of one type of villain from the Howard stories, but 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:05.040 with the name of another one. Basically, they pulled a 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:09.600 Velociraptor denonicus here. Okay, we have one thing and you 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.919 gave them the name of the other. My understanding, and 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:16.479 I've only read like one or two Roberty Howard stories 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:20.240 in my life, but my understanding is that the actual 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.320 Falsa doomed character is more like what Skeletor is in 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.680 Masters of the Universe. Okay, but so we're talking about 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:28.600 the one in the movie played by James Earl Jones. 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.720 He in the movie is a sorcerer and a high 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:34.879 priest or, a cult leader in the cult of Set, 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:39.080 which is a snake based religion. So in the movie mythology, 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:43.639 Set is a giant snake god. Now, snakes play a 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:46.560 role in many myths and religions that we've discussed, the 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:50.640 various primordial world servants on the show before, as well 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:54.679 as the regenerative themes sometimes associated with the shedding of 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:59.000 a snake skin because the snake like sheds its old body, 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.439 almost know, it seems to take on new life. And uh, 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:04.800 you know, since Time Out of Mind, people have found 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:07.480 magic and intrigue in that. I think that's a classic 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:11.680 example of bio mythology, you know, where biological facts inspire 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:14.679 mythological archetypes and uh. And this sort of thing has 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:18.960 been associated with everything from fertility gods to the depictions 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:22.080