1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to Stuff to 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: Joe McCormick. And today we thought we would get back 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: into the science of a movie from the nineteen eighties 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: that seems to be something we've been into lately. We 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: did Science of Highlander two. It was a great success. 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: We did we we talked about almost the Labyrinth, not 9 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: Labyrinth the Dark Crystal Um. Of course. Months earlier we 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: also did two thousand one of Space Odyssey. Oh that's right. 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: Well that's kind of a different story there. But Robert, 12 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: you've been badgering me to pick a movie, and so 13 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: I was thinking. I was thinking. I was thinking, and 14 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 1: then I realized, you know, snake science is always great 15 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: to talk about, and we could we could also discuss 16 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: some great myths if we were to revisit a movie 17 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: I loved when I was younger, Conan the Barbarian the 18 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: nineteen eight two John Millie Is directed Arnold Schwarzenegger starring 19 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: take on the Conan lore by Robert E. Howard. I 20 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: think it's a very different take from what I can 21 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: tell I'm not really into the old literature, but I 22 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: was thinking, Yeah, I wonder how this movie holds up. 23 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: It's time to view Conan again, right, So yeah, if 24 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: you're just joining stuff to blow your mind, like if 25 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: you just clicked on us that, I don't want to 26 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: check out this science podcast they're all about. Um, yeah, 27 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: this is something we've been doing, trying to do like 28 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: one a month. So what we're gonna do is we're 29 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: gonna talk a little bit about this movie. And uh, 30 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's it's it's actors, it's plot, 31 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: it's some of its more serpentine features. But we're gonna 32 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: use that as a springboard to discuss a little bit 33 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: of science, a little bit of myth, a little bit 34 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: of biology, all of that and uh, you know, all 35 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: under the you know, the loose heading of of the 36 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: science of Falsa Doom, Falsa Doom being the the principal 37 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: antagonist in this film. Now that I've rewatched it, I 38 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: agree with my much earlier assessment, which is clearly the 39 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: best part of the movie. The villain Thulsa Doom, played 40 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: by James Earl Jones. Now this is like, this is 41 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: like Pete James Earl Jones because this in nineteen eighty two, 42 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: he had been the voice of Darth Vader. So James 43 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: Earl Jones has like has like the greatest voice of 44 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: the greatest villain in genre cinema of the day, and 45 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: so they're like, why not bring him in to play 46 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: this this awesome charismatic cult leader. And he is still 47 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: just supernaturally intense in the movie in a beautiful and 48 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: hilarious way. Uh. Now, I remember I love this movie 49 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: when I was younger, for it's like epic silliness and 50 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: like the incomprehensible meat mouth Arnold performance in it. Uh. 51 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: You know, he's got some hilarious facial expressions, some hilarious 52 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: line delivery, but there's also a kind of beautiful operatic atmosphere. 53 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely. I mean, I believe director and writer John 54 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: Eilius has has cited you know, Wagner as being one 55 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: of the influences on the on the on the film. 56 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: That's kind of not surprising having gone back and seen it, 57 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: seeing it more recently and now being aware that there 58 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: are people who sort of criticized it as being fascist 59 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: when it came out, I can't say I think those 60 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: critics are wrong, and this is, I think, not a 61 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: movie that one should let shape their values. No. Yeah, 62 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: I mean this is a film that I've I've loved 63 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 1: for a long time and uh and I didn't watch 64 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: it in its entirety for this episode, so it's still 65 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: been a few years since I've seen it. But I 66 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: went back and watched most of the Fulsa Doom segments. 67 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: Um so, so I'm not speaking to do a recent 68 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: rewatch of it. But yeah, this is this is a 69 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: film that I if you asked me, do you love 70 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: Conan the barband, say yes? If if if you had 71 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: asked me, is this is it a part of your 72 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: your core philosophical outlook and you should be worried if 73 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: it is. Somebody's right because we don't live in a 74 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: sword and sorcery world for starters, and nor should we 75 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: want to. I mean, this is a kind of world 76 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: where there is just a ton there's like all this 77 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: blockhead macho violence and cruelty. I think about one thing 78 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: that was shocking on rewatching it is how many scene 79 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: of there are of Conan just like punching animals. There's 80 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: like a scene where he punches a camel in the head. 81 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: I'm not sure why that's in there. Of course, the 82 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: the I mean, it goes without saying it's like the 83 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: textbook example of objectification of women in film. So the 84 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,239 Speaker 1: treatment of women and it is just kind of vile. 85 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: And there's this like it's the movie is just greased 86 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: up and down with fetishization of some weird version of 87 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: masculinity and obsession with weapons, technology and murder. So I 88 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: don't know all the critics who saw the authoritarian stuff 89 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: in there, the weirdness of it. It begins with like 90 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: a Nietzscheck quote. So it seems that John Milius obviously 91 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: the director. You were telling me, he's the he's the 92 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: person that the character of Walter and The Big Lebowski 93 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 1: is based on. That's what I've always heard. I don't 94 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: know to to what extent, but clearly they look a 95 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: lot of like they're there. They're there. The look of 96 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: the characters very much patterned Don Milius. That made everything 97 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: click for me. I was like, this is a movie 98 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: that was made by Walter from The Big Lebowski. Before 99 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: we go any further, let's actually just hear a sample 100 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: from the trailer, just to get it to remind everybody, uh, 101 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: you know about what we're talking about here, Warrior feel alright, 102 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: So we got a taste of the drama there, a 103 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: taste of the music. The score is is beautiful in 104 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: this film. This is one of the few, um you know, 105 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: you know, orchestra scores that I can really get behind. 106 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,919 Speaker 1: I love the music in it. Yeah, And I do 107 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: think in the same way that it was sort of 108 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: a breakout performance for Arnold Schwarzenegger. I have read about 109 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: it being an important stepping stone stone for the composer 110 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: of the film as well. Oh yes, so yeah, obviously 111 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: we have Arnold Schwartzenegger as Roberty Howard's pulled pair of 112 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: Barbarian alongside other newcomers. Because that's one of the things 113 00:05:58,120 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: to keep in mind here is like arnoldly have been 114 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: in virtually nothing at this point, um, and you've been 115 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: in some movies where you literally couldn't understand a single thing. 116 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: He said, right, so this was this is a big deal. 117 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: This this is a film that kind of made Arnold. 118 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: And then I'll you also have these other kind of 119 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: newcomers sandel bergman, isn't it uh? Jerry Lopez, who mostly 120 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 1: made his name and still has a name as a surfer. 121 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: And then alongside him he had veteran actors Mako, Max 122 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: Von Sido and then of course James Earl Jones as 123 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: Tulsa Doom. But I'm not to discount the hinchman in 124 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: this film as well. He has a couple of henchmen 125 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: and their rex Or and thor Gram and they're played 126 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: by s then Olie Thorson, who's in a classic in 127 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: every Arnold film, is this bodybuilder with this just just uh, 128 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: he's just got a face like somebody ate his lunch 129 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: and it stayed that way forever. And he he's he's 130 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: the villain in a really funny B movie called Abraxas 131 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: Guardian of the Universe and stars s Ventura. They should 132 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,679 Speaker 1: have gotten Jesse Ventura to play a role in uh, 133 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: I don't think he was ready for it. But but 134 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: then the other henchman is played by Ben Davidson, who 135 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: is this enormous, uh like really haggard looking, mustachioed football 136 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: player and uh, and you know he basically another case. Really, 137 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: all these actors outside of Mako and Maximum Sido and 138 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: some of the supporting players, you know, there were a 139 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: lot of people that were brought on because they uh 140 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: you know, they had some sort of natural and or 141 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:34,239 Speaker 1: physical charisma and uh and they somehow made them work 142 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: in the film like they they For instance, Ben Davidson 143 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: not really it was not really known for his acting ability, 144 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: just like looked like a tough guy. Um and he's 145 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: just grimaces a lot in this film. But he has 146 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: this one part where he always says, is you And 147 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: it's perfectly executed in this film, like like a few 148 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: there are a few times where a character in a 149 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: film just says a single word and it's played perfectly. 150 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: So that's kind of how aren't Schwarzenegger is right? I mean, 151 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: he's not much of an actor. I don't know if 152 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: he ever really became much of an actor, but he's 153 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: definitely not an actor in this movie. He's just he's 154 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: just sort of playing himself. But uh, well he's he does. 155 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,119 Speaker 1: I think he does a good job in this film. 156 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: But at times it does feel kind of like if 157 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: I'm watching us an Italian horror movie where a child 158 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: is being menaced by a monster or something. The child 159 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: is screaming, and I start worrying if the child would 160 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: like they just said, we'll just go scare the child. 161 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: We don't have to worry about the child. Acting will 162 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: just terrify them, like to are they just really beating 163 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: the hell out of Arnold? And then that's how they 164 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: filmed the scene, you know. Um, But that's what makes 165 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: it hilarious to see bloopers from the production of Conan 166 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: the Barbarian where like they're supposed to be wild dogs 167 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: chasing him and they catch him and then they don't 168 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: actually hurt him, but he's like, so the basic plot 169 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: of the film is that it's it's set during a 170 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: time before the oceans drank Atlantis, in an age of 171 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: high adventure, and you have this young boy, Uh, the 172 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: young Conan Uh, and his village is decimated by this 173 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: vicious war band. His parents are murdered, his father's sword 174 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: is taken by the villains Uh, and the boy enters 175 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: a grueling life of servitude, labor, and finally gladiatorial combat. 176 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: Then he's freed. He finds a new sword and a 177 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: giant's crypt, and then he eventually crosses past with the 178 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: very villains who decimated his family, only now the leader 179 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,719 Speaker 1: of that band, that war band, Thulsa Doom. He's reinvented 180 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: himself now as this charismatic cult leader, and so um 181 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: Conan and some of his friends they enter into the 182 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: service of an aging king, uh to free the king's 183 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: daughter from the snake colts clutches, and in doing so, 184 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: Conan discovers the source of his strength. Uh. He solves 185 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: the rule of steel, he achieves his vengeance. I mean 186 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 1: really it's basically a simple revenge story. But it's it's 187 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: one that is it's well made, it's well told. You 188 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: know what the basic beats are gonna be, but they're 189 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: they're well delivered. You could pretty much find the same 190 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: plot in any number of westerns. Are certainly in biker films. Oh, 191 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: I absolutely see what you mean with uh. With the 192 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: biker film, like the bizarre kind of like the the 193 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: idolization of the on the road, grungy lifestyle, this like 194 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: sense of fetishization of some feeling about masculine individuality and 195 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: like you know, freedom and will. Yeah, the outlaw were Ethos, 196 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: dangerous hippie religions, that sort of thing. Yeah, absolutely so. 197 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: Falsa Dooms snake cult has all these people showing up 198 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 1: looking like they're ready for you know, woodstock in the 199 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 1: late sixties. Uh, that's another way that I mean, if 200 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: you start to count them up, that you really do 201 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: start to notice all the ways that the film seems um, 202 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, it's clearly like an eighties 203 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: reactionary kind of thing. Yeah. Now, I do want to 204 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: stress that I fully support anybody being able to just 205 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: set and enjoy Conan the Barbarian as Conan the Barbarian, 206 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: and I try and I try to do that when 207 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: I when I watch a film like this. But at 208 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: the same time, it is an interesting exercise just to 209 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: place a film within the context of its times, take 210 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: apart what it means, what it's saying. You know, what 211 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: is the one is the like the what's the basic 212 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: philosophy of the of the feature? That sort of thing. Well, 213 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: if one we're trying to be generous, you could say 214 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: maybe that like like when you read an ancient myth. 215 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: Ancient myths can be enticing and beautiful because they show 216 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 1: you something about a mindset from ages past, and they 217 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: show you know, they're imaginative, they give you a different 218 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: way of thinking. But almost no ancient myth that none 219 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: that I can think of, has like values that I 220 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: think are still good and applicable across the board, so 221 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: you could think about Conan in that way. But it's 222 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: also I don't know, I mean, it was made recently, 223 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: but it's supposedly said at a time of like a 224 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: lost past, before any historically recorded civilization. Now, one more 225 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: thing about the legacy of of this film is that 226 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: that obviously it had a huge impact on the fantasy genre, 227 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: the sword and sorcery genre, in the same way that 228 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: Roberty Howard's original stories were highly influential. But this film 229 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: in particularly also was just endlessly copied by various bad 230 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: barbarian films to rise up in its wake, including some 231 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: just truly wonderful Italian barbarian films. Oh Man, the a 232 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: Tor movies. I I just recently, you know what actually 233 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: made me want to go back and watch Conan the 234 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 1: Barbarian to see if if we could do an episode 235 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: about it, was that I recently watched a movie called 236 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: Your Hunter from the Future, which is a hilarious nineteen 237 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: eighties Conan rip off. Just like Leather Diaper Barbarian movie. 238 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: It's got reb Brown, the guy from Space Mutiny, and 239 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: all the Conan kind of stuff is there, but done 240 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: in a cheaper, less operatic, more hilarious, and more Italian way. 241 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean there there's so so many examples 242 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: of this the sort of film that I love, the 243 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: Death Stalker films, um, oh, the Lucio Fulsey film Conquest. 244 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: That's that's one of my favorites. I've seen that one 245 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: far more recently, and that is also a beautiful, uh 246 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: violent film. But because it's fulchy, it's gross. Well it's gross, 247 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: uh but beautiful. Before this episode, I want to focus 248 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: mainly on the idea of Fulsa Doom, not just because 249 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: he's the best character in the movie. And I will 250 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: say I think he's the best character in the movie, 251 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: not really in any way that's on the page. It's 252 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: mostly just that James Earl Jones is awesome in the role. 253 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: He he brings that uh that that Darth Vader gravitas 254 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: I hate, I just used a word. I hate when 255 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: people say I'm sorry, I said gravity tass. He brings 256 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: this power and intensity and subtle dignity to to the 257 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: way he delivers lines about the riddle of steel and 258 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: the power of flesh that normally would get a laugh 259 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: and I think even delivered by another character in the 260 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: same movie would get a laugh. But but Jones just 261 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: nails it. Yeah, And I think it's also a treat 262 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: for a lot of viewers may not be that familiar 263 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: with with Ownes his earlier work and his stage work certainly, Um, 264 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: you know, when you think of James or don't you 265 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: might think of Darth Vader where he's just doing the voice, 266 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: or you're thinking of films in which you had a 267 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: an older James Earl Jones, like more visibly aged James 268 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: Earl Jones. And this he's able to like really be 269 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: physically present and appear you know, physically strong and intimidating, uh, 270 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: in a way that you know you certainly don't see. 271 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: And some of his later films and there are multiple 272 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: scenes where he just stares into the camera and his 273 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: eyes look through you and through a thousand people behind you. 274 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: He's got like the million light year gaze. Yeah. So 275 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: it's a wonderful villain performance for sure. And he is, 276 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a I think he's a well formulated, uh, 277 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: you know villain. You know, there's not a lot of 278 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: depth to him. I guess you know you're not you're 279 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: not really connecting with him as a as a as 280 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: a human, in part because sometimes he's a giant snake. 281 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: But but well, it's also just not a subtle movie. 282 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: I mean, what's a worried about it is like, you know, 283 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: the open vistas and the music and the operatic quality. 284 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: I mean, the characters are quite flat and envisioned in 285 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: what I would say, is it kind of an emotionally 286 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: and morally immature way. Um like the you know, it 287 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: takes place in a world where I don't get any 288 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: sense that there's any good or evil. There's just like 289 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: strength and valor and revenge. It's a very like you 290 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: might find this familiar from some thirteen year old boys 291 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: you knew once. Well, you know, I have a couple 292 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: of thoughts on that. I mean, first of all, crom 293 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: laughs at your need for emotional depth in your characters, Joe. 294 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: But but also we have to remember, just going back 295 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: to the original source material, Roberty Howard Um died at 296 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: the age of thirty, so so all of the stories 297 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: of Conan emerge from you know, from his twenties. I mean, 298 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: and and uh, you know, I don't want to get 299 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: into the full biography of Roberty Howard, but you know, 300 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: I think, you know, there's a case to be that. Yeah, 301 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: these are these are films that did emerge from an 302 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: extended adolescence and uh, you know, and people people love them, 303 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: and maybe that's part of of of why. You know, 304 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: they speak to a sort of you know, adolescent longing, 305 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: this kind of classic teenage desire to be free and 306 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: control your own destiny. Well, this reminds me of another 307 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: air where you see the influence of of Conan and 308 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: Conan the Barbarian, that being death metal and uh and 309 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: certain you know heavy metal acts where this, you know, 310 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: the sword and sorcery elements and this kind of like 311 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: stark nihilism. Uh, do seem to be wrapped up in 312 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: this adolescent longing. Yeah, I absolutely see that. I mean, 313 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: there are a lot of bands that are basically just 314 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: Conan the Barbarian the band. Yeah, there's also falso Doomed 315 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: the Band. Apparently I'm not that familiar with them, but 316 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: I I had to listen to just a little of them, 317 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: get a sample of it before I went in here. 318 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: It's any good. Sounded pretty good. It's not death metal, 319 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: I want to be clear on that, but it's a yeah, 320 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: it sounded all right, maybe we can we can hear 321 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: from fans of Sodom the band, and you guys can 322 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: can educate us more on them. Well, they knew the 323 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: best character from the movie to name to name their 324 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: band after. Because one last thing I'll say about it 325 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: before we move on to the mythology and the science. 326 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: I will say I was shocked to read that in 327 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: reviews at the time the movie came out, which were 328 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: you know, they were mixed. It was like polarizing to critics. 329 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: Um Apparently a lot of critics criticized James Earl Jones 330 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: performance and they were like, this is you know, this 331 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: is unsettled. It's not tasteful. It's camp. And I was like, well, 332 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: I mean it might be camp, but it's awesome. Yeah, 333 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: that's why. I mean, it's like criticizing Rocky Harror Picture 334 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: Show for all. It's camp, but of course it's got camp. 335 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 1: That's what I came for. The camp. Tim Curry's really 336 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: over the top. You could have been a lot more stuff, 337 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know how you can. Well, I mean, 338 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: every criticism of Conan the Barbarian makes sense to me, 339 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 1: except the one that criticizes James Earl Jones. Well, you know, 340 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: it's like another recent example that really has a lot 341 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: in common with kind of the Barbarian because it's also 342 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: a revenge picture, and certainly it's nostalgic for films of 343 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: this age. Uh Penis Cosmatos is Mandy, which it's also 344 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: a film that probably polarized audiences a bit. Some people 345 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: it seems like a film we either love it or 346 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: you don't really get it. I think one difference there 347 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: is that there's a much clearer ironic distance. It's true 348 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 1: with the with the creation of Mandy right. Well, you know, 349 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: whereas John Millius is looking to Wagner and other influences, 350 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: uh Panos is looking to the films of yesterday here, 351 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: so there's like a degree of removal. But but that's 352 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: a film where you have you have a charismatic cult 353 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: leader played by a terrific actor, and then you also 354 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: have the you have a hero that's most certainly more 355 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: an established actor and Nicholas Cage. But I don't know 356 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: you can make some comparison between like the raw visceral 357 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 1: nature of these performances. I guess, yeah, Well, Cage is 358 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: not super subtle in Mandy right, But it's a film 359 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: like both of those performances in Mandy the villain, uh, 360 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: the the antagonist and the protagonist. Yeah, they're both. They 361 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 1: both have a lot of frenzied energy to them, and 362 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: ultimately I wouldn't want it any other way. Absolutely, So 363 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: maybe let me sum up my thoughts. My thoughts are 364 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: Conan in some ways kind of great, still kind of beautiful, 365 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: still kind of excellent camp but also all the criticisms 366 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: make sense. Don't let your sons grow up to be Conan's. 367 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: All right, Well, we're gonna take a break and when 368 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: we come back, we're gonna jump into the meat of 369 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: this episode or episodes. Who knows how long it'll go. 370 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: Maybe we'll have to split it in half. You know, 371 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: we'll see how it goes here. But when when we 372 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: come back, we're going to discuss snake magic. Than all right, 373 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: we're back. So Sulsa Doom played by James Earl Jones 374 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: in the film uh as distinguished. I want to be 375 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: clear from Fulsa Doom in the Roberty Howard short stories 376 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: that Conan is based on, which I believe is actually 377 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 1: a totally different character. I think we basically got sort 378 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: of one type of villain from the Howard stories, but 379 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: with the name of another one. Basically, they pulled a 380 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: Velociraptor denonicus here. Okay, we have one thing and you 381 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: gave them the name of the other. My understanding, and 382 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,479 Speaker 1: I've only read like one or two Roberty Howard stories 383 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: in my life, but my understanding is that the actual 384 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: Falsa doomed character is more like what Skeletor is in 385 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: Masters of the Universe. Okay, but so we're talking about 386 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: the one in the movie played by James Earl Jones. 387 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: He in the movie is a sorcerer and a high 388 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: priest or, a cult leader in the cult of Set, 389 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: which is a snake based religion. So in the movie mythology, 390 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: Set is a giant snake god. Now, snakes play a 391 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: role in many myths and religions that we've discussed, the 392 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: various primordial world servants on the show before, as well 393 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 1: as the regenerative themes sometimes associated with the shedding of 394 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: a snake skin because the snake like sheds its old body, 395 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: almost know, it seems to take on new life. And uh, 396 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: you know, since Time Out of Mind, people have found 397 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: magic and intrigue in that. I think that's a classic 398 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: example of bio mythology, you know, where biological facts inspire 399 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: mythological archetypes and uh. And this sort of thing has 400 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: been associated with everything from fertility gods to the depictions 401 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: of snakes in the Old Testament. We've seen them as 402 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: creatures of the underworld and the river of lightning and thunder. 403 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: And it shouldn't be surprising that an animal were so 404 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 1: hardwired to notice should play, you know, would play such 405 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: an important role in our sacred traditions. And we've discussed 406 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: this on the show before, but there are while it 407 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: is still an open question, I think there is still 408 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: some debate. There appears to me to be pretty good 409 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: evidence that we we recognize certain animal forms such as snakes, 410 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: especially including snakes in a kind of hardwired way, like 411 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: their forms attract attention from babies who have not yet 412 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: had time to be conditioned to respond to snakes, and 413 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: so snake really agen's the use of snakes and snakes 414 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: symbolism in various religious practices. It really just it's all 415 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: over the place. I mean, you can even go to 416 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: even more recent adaptations of the symbolisms, or take a 417 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: twentieth century America there's the rise of the appellation, practice 418 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: of snake handling as a test of faith. Well yeah, 419 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: and the long ending of the Gospel of Mark in 420 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: the Bible. This is a part of the Gospel of 421 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: Mark that I think is generally considered by Bible scholars 422 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: to not have been a part of the book originally, 423 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: but something that was added on later. But it says 424 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: that people who have faith in Christ will take up 425 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: deadly serpents in their hands and they will not harm them, 426 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: and they drink poison. Yeah, but that's a great indication 427 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: that you know what's thought. Let's like, what, where's the 428 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: first place our brain goes in the idea of defying death, 429 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: you know, the mirror miraculous survival. It's like, well, it's 430 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: being able to hold snakes, which is funny because I 431 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: think most snakes are not actually that dangerous to humans, 432 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: even if you are bitten and venimated. Well yeah, I 433 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: mean it depends in a large part on where you 434 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: are in the world. And then also like how you 435 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: know how close you're getting to these snakes? Right, Yeah, 436 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: I think that's right. So I want to talk about 437 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: the god set. So we got the cult of set right, Um, 438 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: there is an actual god in Egyptian religion and mythology 439 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: named Set or Seth. But this god is very different 440 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 1: from the fictional snake god Set in the Conan movies. 441 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: And I wanted to talk about the real god Set. 442 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,479 Speaker 1: Let's do it. Spread the word of Set. Okay. So 443 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 1: my main source here is Geraldine Pinch's book on Egyptian 444 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: Mythology from Oxford University Press. Uh. And so one thing 445 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: about this is, of course ancient Egypt covers a vast 446 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: time scale, So when you look into the roles of 447 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: different gods or symbols in Egyptian mythology, you're going to 448 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: see a lot of different stories over time. And there's 449 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 1: not just one story of Set that's the only one. Yeah. 450 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: We we always have to stress this when we're talking 451 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: about mythology, because even in with something like Greek mythology, 452 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: this is the case. It is not there's not like 453 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: one set pantheon. It's not like here the here's the 454 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: first edition Greek pantheon God and Godess cards. Collect them 455 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 1: all and know exactly where they rank. No, things are emerging, evolving, geography, 456 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: different regions, different peoples are coming into play, changing traditions 457 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: as well, and that's certainly the case in Egyptian traditions, 458 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: absolutely the case, and and Set or Seth is no example, 459 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: But I just want to talk about some common features 460 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: and things that appear in the texts here and there. 461 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: So set was often understood as a creature of chaos, 462 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: and he was the sometimes enemy of his brother Osiris, 463 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: who is a very important figure in Egyptian religion. Set 464 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: and Osiris are two of the five children of the 465 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: sky goddess newt in Ut and the earth god Gebb, 466 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: and in many texts, Set eventually murders Osiris, either with 467 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: direct violence or through some kind of complicated assassination plot. 468 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: Pinch writes that quote Seth acts as a catalyst in 469 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: Egyptian myth His thoughtless actions are bad in themselves, but 470 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: can lead to good outcomes, such as that of Osiris 471 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: becoming the ruler of the underworld. And she also gives 472 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: the example that I'll talk about more in a minute, 473 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: that that sets brute strength is sometimes needed to defend 474 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 1: the gods against even worse beings. Uh and in other 475 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: later mythologies. To to compare this to it, it it sort 476 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: of reminds me somewhat of the role of Loki in 477 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: Norse mythology, who is a troublemaker and ultimately a great enemy, 478 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: but also in many stories an indispensable ally or a 479 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: catalyst for important developments. Also, like with a lot of 480 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: cultures in history, you see an ancient Egyptian mythology a 481 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: sort of suite of associations between on one hand, you've 482 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: got order and civilization in the homeland, and then on 483 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: the other side you've got chaos, the wilderness or untamed 484 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: nature and foreign lands. And at times there seems to 485 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: be an opposition where Osirius represents a sense of order, 486 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 1: of civilisation and of Egyptian nous, while Set represents chaos 487 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: and the untamed aspects of nature or the you know, 488 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: the wild desert, and foreigners or foreign nous. And this 489 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: also sort of comes through with the god's consorts. So 490 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: the main consort of Osiris was his sister isis Um, 491 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: but sets consorts include his sister Nephthys, but also goddesses 492 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: from foreign cultures. So sometimes his consorts are goddesses like 493 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 1: a not or Astarte, who are submitted goddesses from the 494 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: area's northeast of Egypt, like around the Lavant So Set 495 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: Set gets into a lot of trouble. He does bad 496 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: stuff all the time in various texts. He's known for 497 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: breaking taboos, committing crimes. Sometimes he'll chop down a sacred tree, 498 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: or he'll kill a sacred animal you're not supposed to 499 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: mess with. He's also accused of kind of strange sexual taboos, 500 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: like in one story, he attempts to enact some kind 501 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: of sex act on the god Horace, which results in 502 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: the birth of Thought, who is a god of the moon, 503 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: who's associated with like wisdom and scholarship and magic, who 504 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: would seem to sort of represent emerging of order in chaos. Now, 505 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: in that Osiris myth, where where where Set kills his 506 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: brother Osirius, the ancient Egyptian religion placed a lot of 507 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: significance on the power of the dead body of Osiris, 508 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: like that even after death, his body controlled things like 509 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: the crops or the you know, the cycles of flooding 510 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: in the Nile. And so after Set killed him, it 511 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 1: seems that Set couldn't leave well enough alone, And in 512 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: some tellings, he just continues to try to like tamper 513 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: with and mutilate the body of Osiris, even after he's 514 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: already dead. And so one type of ritual in ancient 515 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: Egyptian religion is that you'd have priesthoods that had ritual 516 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 1: retaliations against Set in which the chaos god would be 517 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: killed and castrated and mutilated in effigy. So, as you 518 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: can see so far, Set is a complex figure. Yeah, yeah, 519 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: I mean, well, he's getting some kind of devil characteristics already. Uh. 520 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: And and that goes on to to extend to this 521 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: this chaos component. Right, He's associated with the wilderness, and 522 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: this means he's he's all the bad vibes of the desert, right, 523 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: He's barren wastes where nothing could grow. He's floods and 524 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: sandstorms and dangerous and unclean wild animals. And he could 525 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: take the form of many known animals like wild cats 526 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: or crocodiles or wild asses. But he also represented uh, 527 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: he's also represented sometimes as a specific, perhaps fictional animal, 528 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: not a snake, but a strange four legged creature with 529 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: a long snout. And we'll come back to that in 530 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: a bit, because that's a really interesting question about the 531 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: mythology of Set. But when placed in opposition to oh 532 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: Syrus or the the other good god Horace, Seth is 533 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: sometimes presented, in um Pinch's words as quote massively strong 534 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: and monumentally stupid. And this is funny because I feel 535 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: like this is kind of how Conan himself reads to 536 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: me in the movie. I know, this is somewhat different 537 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: than the more clever character who's in the original stories 538 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: in the movie. I don't know if you read it differently, Robert, 539 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: but to me, in the movie Thalsa Doom, the villain 540 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: is presented as cunning and subtle and intelligent and complex, 541 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: whereas Conan's supposed virtues seem to be his strength and 542 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: his courage and his lack of cunning or complexity. He's 543 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: the mythical straight shooter, right, you know, he's just kind 544 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: of he is what he is. He's a simple kind 545 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: of man, and he you know, he goes out and 546 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: he's strong and he does what you know, he's like 547 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: will incarnate. Yeah, I mean he has. He has kind 548 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,719 Speaker 1: of an agent of chaos, right, as opposed to Thalsa 549 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,959 Speaker 1: Doom's the order that Thulsa Doom has created in the world. Uh, 550 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: there's almost kind of a butterfly effect, right. There's this this, 551 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: this this one event, this one massacre, this one child 552 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: that that he allows to let live like this child, 553 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: uh like spins off and becomes this thing that will 554 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: bring about his downfall. This this this this unpredictable chaotic 555 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: element that that just steadily brings everything down in the 556 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: end and is not very not necessarily represented as very 557 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: mentally subtle or complex. And Conan's kind of a meathead. Yeah, yeah, 558 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: I mean absolutely, that's that's you know, that's definitely part 559 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: of the text, right, He's um, you know, he just 560 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: he knows what he wants and he goes after it, 561 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: be it you know, jewels or women or ultimately vengeance. 562 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: So I think maybe Conan should have been the one 563 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: aligned with Set in the movie. I think maybe the 564 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: movie got it backwards. Yeah, perhaps, But it also gets 565 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: more complex because there are some stories from Asian Egypt 566 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: to wards. Set is not just a villain or enemy 567 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: of the gods of order. Quote. One of the secrets 568 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: revealed in the Royal Underworld books was the joining of 569 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: the two lords. Uh and that would be Set and 570 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: Horace into one double headed being to combat the forces 571 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: of chaos in the hour of greatest danger. Uh And 572 00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: so that's also going to come back in an interesting 573 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: way to some symbology in the movie that we'll talk about. 574 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, so Set sometimes joins forces with the supposed 575 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: good guys like Horace or the solar deity Ray to 576 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: defeat the chaos monster that is the serpent a pep 577 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: or a popis. So you may have heard this mytho 578 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: dynamic before, but here's how it basically works. Okay, So 579 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: every day you've got a solar boat. You know, it 580 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: goes across the sky with the Sun. That's how it's 581 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: getting across. Yeah, so it's going across the sky, is 582 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: bearing the god Ray, makes this journey across the sky, 583 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: and then it's sunset, it dips over the horizon. What 584 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: happens when you dip over the horizon where you go 585 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: into the underworld. So every night, the boat bearing Ray 586 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: and the gods and the Sun, it goes over the 587 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: horizon and it has to journey through the underworld and 588 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: this is what night time is. So every night, during 589 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: this treacherous voyage through the underworld, a snake dragon called 590 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: a pep or a popis attacks the boat of the Sun, 591 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,719 Speaker 1: trying to kill Ray and stop the Sun from rising. 592 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: And a pep is like the true snake god. Uh, 593 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: entity from Egyptian mythology. Yeah, exactly, And one of the 594 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: main defenders of the boat, ironically, was Set, the strong 595 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: wild god. He would crush or club or spear or 596 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: bind the snake every night, and then it would revive 597 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: or escape and attack again the next night. So every 598 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: night the earthly priests would perform rituals to help the gods, 599 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: including Set, win over the great snake. And some of 600 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: these rituals involved making models or effigies of the monster, 601 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: and then they would curse the model and destroy it 602 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: or stab it or crush it or burn it with fire. 603 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: So the priests would kind of act out the role 604 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: of the mighty and dangerous chaos god Set in order 605 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: to defeat an even greater and more evil enemy, this 606 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: this monster of chaos apep or Apophis. Now, snakes are 607 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: not always bad or evil in ancient literature. Earlier, Robert 608 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: you mentioned that snakes are often a symbol of something 609 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: like rebirth, and that that appears also in Egyptian literature. 610 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: Sometimes they represent rebirth, sometimes they represent creation or other 611 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: positive attributes. But I would say not here. It seems 612 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: to me that a pepper a popis, is nasty to 613 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: the core. Yeah, and I like the way that the 614 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: character of Set becomes more complex like this over time, 615 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: that you know he he might be a bad guy 616 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: in some ways, but he's he's even if he's monumentally stupid. 617 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: He's big and strong and you need his help to 618 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: defeat the even worse monster. It's kind of like that 619 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: scene in the movie where you have to team up 620 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: with the villain from the previous movie. It's like when 621 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: the X Men have to recruit Magneto to help them, 622 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: which this is a common trope and any kind of 623 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: like multi entry series, right, if you still have a 624 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: villain from an earlier film, like you're running out of 625 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: things to do with them to a certain extent, so 626 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: you have to find new uses for him. But then 627 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: this also ties into the mythic tradition. Yeah, but I 628 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: want to come back to the interesting question. Uh we 629 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: alluded to a minute ago from Egyptian mythology, not not 630 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: in the movie, the the Egyptian mythology of Set. What 631 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: was this Set animal? So we know that Set was 632 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: not a snake. In fact, Set was very much involved 633 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: in slaying the Great Evil Snake. What what was this 634 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: animal he was associated with? We're gonna take a quick 635 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: break and then we'll find out than alright, we're back. 636 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: So when you think of the Egyptian gods and goddesses, 637 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: I think one tends to think of those humanoid figures 638 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: with animal heads, and it's and it's easy to just 639 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: work along those lines, right and just think, Okay, this 640 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: animal plus this body equals this god. And for the 641 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: most part, that seems to be how it goes. Um 642 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: you know you you you see the like the jackal 643 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: headed anibus, etcetera. But when we look at Set, the 644 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: weird thing is that this doesn't seem to necessarily be 645 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: an easily identifiable animal. He has this head that I mean, 646 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: you kind of glance at it, you might think it's 647 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: some sort of dog, or maybe it's a bird, but 648 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: but it's not. It's clearly something else. And in fact, uh, 649 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: the crazy thing about Set is that we're still not 650 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: exactly sure what animal Set is supposed to be based upon. 651 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: We can't look at him and say, oh, it's a jackal. 652 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: That's clearly that's the head of a jackal, and then 653 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: we can extrapolate what that symbology might mean. No, with 654 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: the said animal, Oh it's been. There's been so many 655 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: different theories, so so some have said, well, maybe it's 656 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: an art vark or a donkey or a jackal, or 657 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: an ore x, a hair or a taper, even though 658 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,919 Speaker 1: they're non existent in Africa, no matter what you saw 659 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: in two thousand and one of Space Odyssey. Or it's 660 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: a finnick fox. I've also seen some early twentieth century 661 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: writings that speculated that it was a domestic pig, or 662 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 1: that it's the head of a mythical compound animal, you know, 663 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: some manner of griffin or sphinx, because that's another possibility, right, Like, 664 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: we we don't want to fall into the trap of 665 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: thinking that ancient people had had no imagine nation or 666 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: that they could only work along the lines of like 667 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: real animal head verse plus real person body. Like they 668 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: could also say, well, the head of the mythological animal 669 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: would work here as well. Yeah, and in fact we know, 670 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 1: I mean, there are multiple different kinds of non existent 671 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: animals that were invoked in the beliefs of ancient people's. 672 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,359 Speaker 1: There are some things that they believed to be sort 673 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: of like spiritual or other worldly animals, things they wouldn't 674 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,320 Speaker 1: expect to see out in nature. There were also animals 675 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: that they just believed were part of nature that we 676 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: don't have any evidence ever existed, right, And we'll get 677 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: back to that because that raises some interesting questions. Percy E. 678 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: Newberry wrote in Night Then It that it had also 679 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: been suggested that the said animal might be a greyhound 680 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: um because one of the things that like, it has ears, 681 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: and it has this kind of snout, but it's kind 682 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: of a downturned snout. Um. So, so certainly like the 683 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 1: the art vark comes to mind when you look at 684 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,720 Speaker 1: it looks kind of like a cartoon art vark. But anyway, 685 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: Newberry also brought up the possibility that it was an 686 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: animal that the ancient Egyptians were not that familiar with. 687 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: So I'm reminded of geographically removed depictions of rhinos and 688 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: lions and other animals and ancient traditions where you know, 689 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: some like a Western artist doesn't really know what a 690 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: rhino looks like, they're basing an illustration on descriptions of 691 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: the rhino, or say, lions and Chinese depictions where the 692 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 1: depiction kind of takes on a life of its own, 693 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: be kind of kind of becomes this thing between reality 694 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: and fantasy, and then another idea that's come up. It's 695 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: just it's the idea that this is an animal that 696 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,879 Speaker 1: had gone extinct, to quote Max Mueller, an Egyptologists from 697 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 1: nineteen eighteen writing on this quote, an animal which had 698 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,240 Speaker 1: perhaps become extinct in prehistoric times, or that the figure 699 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: of it had been drawn from an archaic statue of 700 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,800 Speaker 1: so crude a type that it defied all zoological knowledge 701 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: of subsequent artists. So you know, that's an interesting idea. 702 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 1: Both of those are interesting ideas to think of too, 703 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: Like it's either like the telephone game of depictions of things, 704 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: where they're basing it on some other depiction, or yeah, 705 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: what if this is based on some sort of animal 706 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: that went extinct during uh the Egyptian era. Um, I mean, 707 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,840 Speaker 1: it's entirely possible. I've also read that the curved nose 708 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: might have simply been introduced at some point to distinguish 709 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: um a dog or jackal based set from the jackal 710 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,959 Speaker 1: headed anabus. So it could have been a situation where like, oh, look, guys, 711 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,359 Speaker 1: we can't have two jackal headed gods. This is gonna 712 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: get kind of confusing. Let's give set a downturn nose. Oh, 713 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: this could be yet another case like we talked about 714 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: in a certain possibilities about depictions of the unicorn, where 715 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: sometimes a belief in a mythical animal could be just 716 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: based on some type of artistic convention, like the idea 717 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,760 Speaker 1: that a unicorn idea could have been inspired by somebody 718 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: drawing an ore x. Oh yeah, yeah with a side profile. Yes, 719 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: now I want I can tell this is still something 720 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: of an open question in Egyptology as well, like there's 721 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: there's no clear answer on what the set animal actually was, um. 722 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: But but yeah, this is I have to admit I 723 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: really wasn't familiar with these questions about the set animal 724 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 1: until he started researching this. I always just kind of 725 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 1: glanced at set. I focus more on sets roles in 726 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: these various uh myths, and I didn't really stop to 727 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: question what he was supposed to be. UM. But but 728 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: now I can look at him and I'm like, yeah, 729 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: there's there's kind of a slight Gonzo element there, right, 730 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: Donzo from the Muppets. And I've never read that there 731 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: was any intentional set iconography in Gonzo, because of course 732 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: the Muppet Gonzo is of course considered a a whatever 733 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: I believe is the is is what it is? The 734 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: joke that they often made. Where did they say that? 735 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: I don't remember. Um. I think just at various times 736 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 1: it comes up, like Gonzos or whatever. I think Gonzo 737 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: identifies as being a whatever? Um though they did. I 738 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: think in Nines Muppets from Space they introduced the idea 739 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: that Gonzo as an alien species. So that's a bad move. 740 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,839 Speaker 1: Why not just leave the mystery open? And and I'm 741 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: not saying that set was an alien. That's not where 742 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: I'm going. We're not going there at all. But imagine 743 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: future beings examining like an incomplete visual history of the 744 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: centuries on Earth. What would they make of Gonzo? What 745 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: would they make of Goofy and Pluto from the Disney pantheon? 746 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 1: What would they make of Snoopy or Totoro or you 747 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: know other cartoon animals and animal like creatures. Yeah, I 748 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: think this is Uh, this is a great point to make. 749 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: I mean, and this is part of what you were 750 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,359 Speaker 1: talking about a minute ago. You know, you never want 751 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: to forget that creative imagination exists. You know, we end 752 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: up saying this a lot just because you see something 753 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,799 Speaker 1: represented in art made by a human doesn't mean that 754 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: they saw something like that. And sometimes I think people 755 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: have that impulse. It's like, Wow, what inspired them to 756 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: draw this? Maybe they were just being weird, you know, 757 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 1: we're we're weird. We come up with weird stuff. All right, Well, 758 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: as expected, we're gonna have to break this episode into two, 759 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,359 Speaker 1: so we're gonna go ahead and call it for now, 760 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 1: but we're gonna be back in the next episode where 761 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about the symbol of set in the movie, 762 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:17,439 Speaker 1: how that relates to both the UH symbolic and mythological 763 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: two headed snakes and real life two headed snakes. We're 764 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: gonna look at at snake arrows, and of course we'll 765 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 1: turn to the world of natural world giant serpents, We'll 766 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,319 Speaker 1: go all the way down the snake hole. That's right. 767 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you want to check out more 768 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your mind, heading over to Stuff to 769 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,399 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mother ship. That's 770 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: where you'll find it all. And if you want to 771 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 1: support the show, always remember that the best thing you 772 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,840 Speaker 1: can do is rate and review us wherever you have 773 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: the power to do so. Make sure you have subscribed 774 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: and UH if you haven't yet check out Invention. That's 775 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: the other show that we do. Make sure you subscribe 776 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,240 Speaker 1: to that as well. It is an invention by invention, 777 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: look at human techno history. Huge thanks as always to 778 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: our excellent audio producers Alex Williams and Tory Harrison. If 779 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,280 Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us directly 780 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,920 Speaker 1: with feedback about this episode or any other, to suggest 781 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, just to say hello, you 782 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 783 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a 784 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,360 Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts 785 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 786 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.