Speaker 1: This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene, along
Speaker 1: with Jonathan Farrow and Lisa Abramowitz. Join us each day
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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Terminal, and the Bloomberg Business App. I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about debt right now with Dana Peterson, Chief
Speaker 1: Economists the Conference Board. The Conference Board hugely aware of
Speaker 1: the consumer and the business tone that's out there in
Speaker 1: America along that line, and to take it from the
Speaker 1: academics data, are we over debted right now? Are we
Speaker 1: up to our eyeballs in credit debt?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Certainly.
Speaker 3: When would look at the consumer credit debt has risen
Speaker 3: to where we were pre pandemic, delinquencies are up. When
Speaker 3: we look at the sovereign debt in the US, it's
Speaker 3: extremely elevated. Interest rates are rising and that's causing debt
Speaker 3: service to rise as well. And we're concerned about both
Speaker 3: the sovereign situation as well as consumers heading into a
Speaker 3: season when they're going to run out of excess savings
Speaker 3: and also maybe laden with student debt loaner payments.
Speaker 4: Well to that exact point, Dana, we've been talking a
Speaker 4: lot about the month of September. I am interested in October,
Speaker 4: when those payments resume after years of being on pause
Speaker 4: due to the pandemic. What economic impact is that likely
Speaker 4: to have, given how this could be a very large
Speaker 4: factor in household budgets.
Speaker 3: Well, it's probably going to take several tenths off of
Speaker 3: GDP growth in October, and it's going to weigh on
Speaker 3: the outlook going forward because certainly, if people were using
Speaker 3: credit cards to finance their debt, and they were also
Speaker 3: taking that reprieve from student loan payments, when all those
Speaker 3: things come doue, they're not going to spend and they're
Speaker 3: probably going to start fearing for the economy in general
Speaker 3: because their own personal finances will not be as robust
Speaker 3: as they were.
Speaker 4: Are we starting to see consumer behavior change already in
Speaker 4: anticipation of that data. What evidence might you be seeing
Speaker 4: of that?
Speaker 3: Well, not really. We think consumers are still looking at
Speaker 3: the fact that many of them are still working, They're
Speaker 3: still spending on services, even though they're saying that the
Speaker 3: types of services are going to spend on will be
Speaker 3: more towards needs rather than once. But the point is
Speaker 3: that they still anticipate that they're going to be spending
Speaker 3: and they're not really looking forward to the fact that, yes,
Speaker 3: they're going to have higher debts, their balance sheets are
Speaker 3: not going to be as healthy, and certainly interest rates
Speaker 3: are going to be very elevated in case they have
Speaker 3: any emergencies where they might need to finance something. So
Speaker 3: I think consumers are not really focused that much on
Speaker 3: the future as much as they should be.
Speaker 1: A Dana, you're expert at this. The theme that Jackson
Speaker 1: Holme particularly our day was Managing director Gurghava of the
Speaker 1: IMF and with Laguard the ECB, they both brought up fragmentation.
Speaker 1: How fragmented is America right now? How disaggregated are we
Speaker 1: in our economics?
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you do have very different responses to
Speaker 3: what's going on in the economy. Even when we look
Speaker 3: at our own consumer confidence measure, you get different readings
Speaker 3: by age and by income, and so we do think
Speaker 3: there is quite a bit of fragmentation in the economy
Speaker 3: right now.
Speaker 1: Well, the fragmentation that's there I guess we see it
Speaker 1: in the jobs report on Friday. A lot of people
Speaker 1: are waiting for el, say sub one hundred thousand non
Speaker 1: farm payrolls. How disaggregated is that number? I mean, it's
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty million for conversation, but as part
Speaker 1: of that one hundred and fifty million flat in their
Speaker 1: back any other part confident?
Speaker 3: Well, I think it really depends on what industry you're in. Certainly,
Speaker 3: the industries where you have to show up to work
Speaker 3: are still hiring. But the industries that were former pandemic
Speaker 3: darlings like and finance, even transportation, warehousing, they're seeing job
Speaker 3: losses and weakness. And even with the big revisions that
Speaker 3: we saw in the payrolls data dating back from March
Speaker 3: to twelve months prior, we saw that there were entire
Speaker 3: gains wiped out. And so if you're in those sectors,
Speaker 3: you're probably not as a buliant as if you are
Speaker 3: in say hotels or restaurants or even healthcare, where there's
Speaker 3: still quite a bit of hiring going on.
Speaker 4: And finally, Dana, can I ask you about the housing
Speaker 4: market and the mortgage rates that people are facing if
Speaker 4: they're trying to buy a home or contending with it.
Speaker 4: They're thinking about selling the home that they're in that
Speaker 4: they have a lower rate on. How is that a
Speaker 4: factor in the perception of the economic health of the
Speaker 4: country that consumers feel if they're looking at home affordability
Speaker 4: that is the worst it's been in decades. Rents that
Speaker 4: also are incredibly high.
Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting you actually see bifurcation in the housing market.
Speaker 3: Is this seeing home sales or down in the de
Speaker 3: and prices are falling year on year because mortgage rates
Speaker 3: are so high. Why would you move if you're going
Speaker 3: to have a higher mortgage rate than what you have
Speaker 3: now after you've probably refinanced a couple of times during
Speaker 3: the pandemic. But then with new housing we're starting to
Speaker 3: see a little bit of a pickup because you can't
Speaker 3: get an existing home. But all in all, bordability is
Speaker 3: certainly down because interest rates are so high, and also
Speaker 3: in certain markets prices are still rising year on year
Speaker 3: because this is very much about location.
Speaker 1: Dana, thank you so much. Dana Peterson the conference board
Speaker 1: with US.
Speaker 5: Philo Landa joined US now chief equity strategists of Refederated
Speaker 5: her Mace. Phil I'll ask the cool question again, is
Speaker 5: the pullback more than I sational setback?
Speaker 6: So Julian's a very smart guy. We've been looking for,
Speaker 6: let's call it, a ten percent correction in stocks over
Speaker 6: the course of the August of ten October period, which
Speaker 6: would be seasonal. The question is what does valuation look
Speaker 6: like these big technology stocks versus the rest of the market.
Speaker 6: In the first you know, seven months of the year,
Speaker 6: the tech stocks have dramatically outperformed the rest of the market,
Speaker 6: and we felt that there would be sort of a
Speaker 6: reversion of the mean during this you know, third quarter period.
Speaker 6: You know, ten twelve percent is a reasonable place to start,
Speaker 6: and let's see what the valuation looks like once we
Speaker 6: get there.
Speaker 1: So I'm coming into labor dam. I'm at the kitchen
Speaker 1: counter at the second home, and I'm trying to reallocate
Speaker 1: my portfolio. Am I reallocating with enthusiasm to equities looking
Speaker 1: out three years? Or can I not have a three
Speaker 1: year view because of the jumble of the news slow
Speaker 1: right now?
Speaker 6: No, if you've got a three year time horizon, Tom,
Speaker 6: we're extraordinarily bullish. Our near term call somewhat tactical, is
Speaker 6: somewhat defensive. That we've got a three percent overweight to
Speaker 6: stocks overall, but our overweights are in domestic value, in
Speaker 6: small cap and international. The one area that we've got
Speaker 6: sort of a negative bias on is these grow technology names,
Speaker 6: which we think got ahead of themselves. As we look
Speaker 6: out three years, we will have seen peak inflation, we
Speaker 6: will have seen peak FED valuation levels will be more reasonable,
Speaker 6: maybe we get a change in leadership in Washington with
Speaker 6: better fiscal policy approach. All of that suggests that stocks
Speaker 6: three years from now we're going to be in much
Speaker 6: better shape.
Speaker 4: Okay, So, Philip, you suggest that we'll see the peak
Speaker 4: and inflation, we'll see the peak and FED funds at
Speaker 4: some point between now and three years from now, can
Speaker 4: you get more specific about where that is? If we're
Speaker 4: talking about higher for longer, how much longer? Realistically?
Speaker 6: So, I think we're looking Kaihlee at about a six
Speaker 6: to twelve month timeframe. The inflation has clearly peaked in
Speaker 6: our mind last year. The question is the divergence between
Speaker 6: the decline in headline inflation versus core inflation. Core inflation
Speaker 6: is coming down at a much slower pace. Federal reserve
Speaker 6: in our view, probably has one more quarter point hike
Speaker 6: up their sleeves, maybe that November first meeting and then
Speaker 6: they go on pause. But pause is going to last
Speaker 6: a while. We don't expect them to come back in
Speaker 6: and start cutting rates until perhaps this time next year.
Speaker 6: Valuation levels, you know, because of the tech stocks were extended,
Speaker 6: those valuation levels are coming back. Stocks are down about
Speaker 6: six percent over the course of the last month or so.
Speaker 6: And then, of course we've got this big election coming
Speaker 6: up in November of next year, so it's going to
Speaker 6: take a year or so for all of these things
Speaker 6: to shake out. But again, using Tom's three year time horizon,
Speaker 6: we're pretty excited about what the longer term picture looks like.
Speaker 4: How does the longer term view on equities conflate with
Speaker 4: what you expect in the bond market, because right now
Speaker 4: the bond market frankly looks quite confused. But I wonder
Speaker 4: how much the rate story is actually what is attribute
Speaker 4: to the stagnation in the equity market we have seen no.
Speaker 6: A great question and the backup in rates that we've
Speaker 6: seen here from three and a quarter to four and
Speaker 6: a quarter and benchmark ten's over the last say six
Speaker 6: months or so, and that's exactly what our Duration Committee
Speaker 6: shaired by R. J. Gallo was looking for. The idea
Speaker 6: is that rates are going to peak here, you know,
Speaker 6: in this four and a quarter four and a half
Speaker 6: percent neighborhood, and looking out over the course of the
Speaker 6: next six to twelve months, we're going to see rates
Speaker 6: rally back, you know, into that three to three and
Speaker 6: a quarter neighborhood. So, you know, it's been painful for
Speaker 6: bond investors over the last six months or so. We
Speaker 6: think looking out over the course of the next year,
Speaker 6: with the potential for slower economic growth, bonds will rally.
Speaker 1: Phill Orlando retail got absolutely slammed last week. Does that
Speaker 1: give you pause on profitable Walmart trading at twenty x
Speaker 1: times you know earnings?
Speaker 6: Tom It certainly gives us pause because one of the
Speaker 6: things we track pretty closely is the performance of the
Speaker 6: consumer during Mapril, back to school and Christmas and back
Speaker 6: to school season. We're only two months in. We've got
Speaker 6: June and July data, but retail sales are only up
Speaker 6: about two point four percent year on year. A year ago,
Speaker 6: retail sales are up nine point eight percent over that
Speaker 6: period of time. We saw the same situation with Mapril
Speaker 6: the March and April Easter sales, we're only up one
Speaker 6: point seven percent year on year. We think Christmas sales
Speaker 6: are going to be again sort of that low single digit.
Speaker 6: So for a number of reasons, the consumer is slowing down.
Speaker 6: GDP is seventy percent generated by the consumer, so that's
Speaker 6: something we're watching pretty closely.
Speaker 5: So do you thinkish some tension here between what we're
Speaker 5: pricing in the bond market, particularly the front end, which
Speaker 5: is high for longer, and what's developing abroad, specifically in China.
Speaker 6: So China has been a disappointment, no question. We've got
Speaker 6: a longer term review on China that given the problems
Speaker 6: that they're having right now, it is inconceivable to us
Speaker 6: that we do not see aggressive fiscal and monetary policy
Speaker 6: in China looking out over the next six to twelve
Speaker 6: months to try to reverse those fortunes. So we like
Speaker 6: international in part because we're expecting the Chinese government is
Speaker 6: going to step in here and try to turn things
Speaker 6: around and improve the economic fortunes of China over the
Speaker 6: next year.
Speaker 5: Now happens yet in a big way, that's for sure, Phil,
Speaker 5: Thank you sir, that's for sure. Phil Orlando, Federated Hermei's
Speaker 5: range of efforts from Chinese policy makers over the weekend.
Speaker 1: It is the end of the summer. We are all recalibrating.
Speaker 1: Children are being lectured on summer reading and getting ready
Speaker 1: for school. Part of that across this nation is to
Speaker 1: get the tone of America. No one does that better
Speaker 1: than Gallup, Venerable Gallup, their editor in chief, Mohammad Units
Speaker 1: has just been exquisite on the big picture of America.
Speaker 1: Mohammed an open question. What is the mood of America
Speaker 1: as we enter September?
Speaker 7: Not good on the several fronts. Not good. If you
Speaker 7: are a federal government official.
Speaker 2: No matter what institution you're leading, right now, you're facing
Speaker 2: a record.
Speaker 7: Low in confidence. And that even applies to the Supreme
Speaker 7: Court and the military.
Speaker 2: But politically speaking, guys, what we see is really the
Speaker 2: Biden administration struggling to get Americans behind what they're doing
Speaker 2: with the economy. Big effort the past couple of weeks,
Speaker 2: you guys covered it. But right now President Biden has
Speaker 2: sixty plus percent of people who disapprove of the way
Speaker 2: he's handling this economy. So as people go back to
Speaker 2: school and as confidence at higher institutions is.
Speaker 7: Also at a record low. People have the economy on
Speaker 7: their mind this fall.
Speaker 1: Does President Trump own the Republican Party or is there
Speaker 1: a party out there of our collective memory.
Speaker 7: Right now, if you follow the numbers he does.
Speaker 2: Nobody is even close to giving him any kind of
Speaker 2: a challenge in terms of favorable ratings.
Speaker 7: That being said, his favorable rating is not high. It's
Speaker 7: forty one. It's the same as President Biden's.
Speaker 2: And again we're going to see an election where Americans
Speaker 2: for the most part, are choosing between options they're not
Speaker 2: thrilled about unless somebody knew and miraculous jumps in the ring,
Speaker 2: and it doesn't look like that's going.
Speaker 7: To happen right now.
Speaker 4: Mohammed, to return to the subject of President Biden and
Speaker 4: his approval ratings, and as you know, they remain low.
Speaker 4: On the economy. You have a graphic in your polling
Speaker 4: that just shows that even over the course of the
Speaker 4: last year in change, as we have seen inflation continually
Speaker 4: going down, the line almost moves sideways. He's not getting
Speaker 4: any credit for things improving well. The greater credit come
Speaker 4: potentially on the downside in the form of blame for
Speaker 4: any further deterioration. We see from here.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, presidents either do a great job taking
Speaker 2: credit for the economy or they do a horrible job
Speaker 2: and they get blamed for anything that's going wrong. I
Speaker 2: think right now the Biden folks are in that ladder category.
Speaker 2: In contrast, of course, President Trump was doing a pretty
Speaker 2: good job taking credit for a booming economy before COVID.
Speaker 2: Those dynamics are probably not going to change, Kayley, I
Speaker 2: don't see President Biden suddenly convincing the public that he's
Speaker 2: doing great. His basis supporting him. Support among Democrats was
Speaker 2: a little bit lower. It's back up to about eighty one.
Speaker 2: So he's really got who he's got historically speaking. To
Speaker 2: really be an incumbent that has a chance, you've got
Speaker 2: to hit the fifty percent plus mark.
Speaker 7: And the big debate in the polling world these.
Speaker 2: Days is is that a dynamic of the past and
Speaker 2: are we moving into a different era right now?
Speaker 7: Neither Biden nor Trump are even close to fifty.
Speaker 4: Okay, So on the subject of Trump, I was mentioning earlier, Mohammad,
Speaker 4: we have this hearing in the Washington case. There's a
Speaker 4: hearing in Georgia as well. Today when we're going to
Speaker 4: be talking about a trial that could fall in the
Speaker 4: middle of primary season. We understood from reporting over the
Speaker 4: w that all the fourth indictment of the president, his
Speaker 4: arrest and mugshot in Georgia, seems to have accomplished for
Speaker 4: him at least at this point is raising a bunch
Speaker 4: of money seven million dollars four point two I believe
Speaker 4: on Friday alone. Do you have any reason to expect
Speaker 4: that he will start to see a deterioration in his
Speaker 4: attractiveness to his base as these legal challenges just keep mounting.
Speaker 7: I don't, And here's why.
Speaker 2: We did a recent analysis looking at the past twenty
Speaker 2: years of the issues Democrats and Republicans have diverged the most.
Speaker 2: On the number one issue, Kayley, has been the size
Speaker 2: of the federal government, a fifty point gap between Republicans
Speaker 2: and Democrats. And you'll notice that President Trump is framing
Speaker 2: his entire defense essentially based on an overreach of government
Speaker 2: that's stifling his right to free speech, his right to.
Speaker 7: Challenge the election, etc.
Speaker 2: The more that he does that, the more that he's
Speaker 2: driving right into the narrative that his base wants to
Speaker 2: hear most of all, So before those reasons I really
Speaker 2: don't see it harming him much.
Speaker 1: Mohammed, which state is your galap guide state towards November
Speaker 1: of next year? Is there one state where you wake
Speaker 1: up and say, pay attention to Ohio or pay attention
Speaker 1: to Georgia? I mean, which is a state that you study?
Speaker 7: There are none that we study, really, Tom.
Speaker 2: What we do is try to understand the national mood
Speaker 2: and the national average. Now, of course swing states are key,
Speaker 2: but really every cycle, in the last three to four cycles,
Speaker 2: there have been different key swing states. It's really early,
Speaker 2: I think right now. Depending maybe when we have a
Speaker 2: one person running for the Republican Party, you point to
Speaker 2: a state if that person is connected to it.
Speaker 7: But it's not just going to be a one state
Speaker 7: game this year.
Speaker 4: Finally, Mohammed, when I look at your breakdown of the
Speaker 4: different approval or situations and the approval for the president,
Speaker 4: I noticed that his highest approval rating is on the
Speaker 4: situation in Ukraine. As we had on the debate stage,
Speaker 4: candidates calling into question last week the idea that the
Speaker 4: US should continue to provide funding. Members of Congress also
Speaker 4: making a lot of noise about the US not aiding
Speaker 4: Ukraine in the same way we have for the last
Speaker 4: eighteen months. Where are the American people on this issue?
Speaker 2: The American people are mostly behind Ukraine, but Republicans are
Speaker 2: split on Ukraine. And this is a really persistent split
Speaker 2: that's consistent now since the beginning of the war. You
Speaker 2: have half of Republicans that very much are the opinion
Speaker 2: that we should not be doing so much. But there's
Speaker 2: another half of the Republicans around forty five percent that
Speaker 2: really want to see Ukraine fight through and win back
Speaker 2: all the territory they've lost.
Speaker 1: Mom in ten seconds, what's been the Taylor Swift impact
Speaker 1: across America? Is it permanent?
Speaker 7: I think? I'm from Los Angeles, I think so.
Speaker 2: I think the future of America has more to do
Speaker 2: with entertainment than anything.
Speaker 1: Right there we go, mahamm thanks for that final point.
Speaker 1: Appreciate it. Annaeshton joins us this morning, and what do
Speaker 1: you think of the Chinese coverage? It's a cottage industry
Speaker 1: right now for people like you, there's like five articles
Speaker 1: a day. I feel like I have to read What
Speaker 1: am I missing? What do you see in your China analysis?
Speaker 1: That's not in the zeitgeist right now?
Speaker 8: So, you know, I wish there were only five articles
Speaker 8: a day that I had to read, because it definitely
Speaker 8: has become something of a cottage industry. I think that
Speaker 8: the interesting thing that's happening right now really is this
Speaker 8: statunt that the Biden administration and Chinese leadership have been
Speaker 8: pursuing for the entirety of the summer. And I know
Speaker 8: that that's not new, and it is something that people
Speaker 8: have had every reason to see, but I think you
Speaker 8: know the fact that it's being carried out by the
Speaker 8: Biden administration at this time when we're headed into a
Speaker 8: presidential election year, and I really had expected a couple
Speaker 8: of years ago that by now there would be nothing
Speaker 8: but a competition to be the most hawkish on China.
Speaker 8: It's very interesting to see the Biden administration deciding that
Speaker 8: stability is the course it wants to.
Speaker 5: Chart, and this way key for Secretary Ramondo. What would
Speaker 5: you expect from four days and meetings from the COMMAS Secretary?
Speaker 8: I think that this is the most important visit we've
Speaker 8: had so far from a member of the administration because
Speaker 8: she oversees export controls, and export controls are the things,
Speaker 8: among others, but a mainstay of the tech policies that
Speaker 8: the United States has rolled out in recent years that
Speaker 8: China is most bothered by. Feels that this is an
Speaker 8: effort to contain their technological advancement and even likely to
Speaker 8: undermine their economic prosperity. So they're pretty upset about the
Speaker 8: export controls and about things like the Executive Order on
Speaker 8: outbound investment that also constrains US abilities to invest certain
Speaker 8: sectors in China, including AI, quantum and semiconductor chips. And
Speaker 8: now they're going to be with the woman who is
Speaker 8: overseeing all of that. She's already sat on the ground
Speaker 8: that national security concerns are non negotiable, but emphasized that
Speaker 8: that's just one percent of the US economy, And she's
Speaker 8: really pushed for a more robust and more stable commercial relationship,
Speaker 8: and she's gotten some receptivity from her counterparts.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we've heard that they're going to be talking. There's
Speaker 4: going to be an export group meeting tomorrow on August
Speaker 4: twenty ninth. To your point, Anna, we've heard from her
Speaker 4: and continuously from administration officials that this is about protecting
Speaker 4: national security interests. It is not about holding China back economically.
Speaker 4: But can you really have one without the other? Isn't
Speaker 4: protecting national security interests to at least a certain degree,
Speaker 4: going to hit China economically by default.
Speaker 8: Yes, by default, it absolutely will, Kaylee. And you know,
Speaker 8: the reality is that these export controls, starting last October,
Speaker 8: with the ones that Jake Sullivan announced, they're really quite restrictive.
Speaker 8: They don't just prevent China from buying things that are
Speaker 8: state of the art. They prevent China from buying anything
Speaker 8: in the future that is smaller than what these restrictions
Speaker 8: have set down, and smaller being more state of the art.
Speaker 8: So they're kind of trying to hold China at a
Speaker 8: certain place in its technological development.
Speaker 1: And all of this is about fancy technology stuff. But
Speaker 1: the fact is in my house still like eighty percent
Speaker 1: of the garbage that comes in the door in cardboard
Speaker 1: boxes says made in China. Has there been any lessening
Speaker 1: of all the stuff we buy that's made in China.
Speaker 1: It's not going to be in a balloon over Wyoming.
Speaker 8: This is an interesting question because of the recent numbers.
Speaker 8: So the numbers for all of twenty twenty two showed
Speaker 8: that trade was an all time high over seven billion dollars,
Speaker 8: but recent numbers have indicated that experts from China and
Speaker 8: to the United States specifically have dropped by twenty five
Speaker 8: percent so far this year, the biggest drop in a
Speaker 8: very long time.
Speaker 1: What was that? But this is important? What was the
Speaker 1: drop due to? Was it electric vehicles from China? Or
Speaker 1: was it you know, the coasters? We just had to
Speaker 1: get coasters, John for the deck, you know the tonic
Speaker 1: the got and what caused that drop in Chinese exports
Speaker 1: to America.
Speaker 8: So there's there's lots of speculation about that, but I
Speaker 8: think that it really is likely that it is a
Speaker 8: sign of US companies beginning to diversify their supply chains
Speaker 8: and so more of the inputs for the goods that
Speaker 8: they are bringing into the United States are made in
Speaker 8: places other than China. That doesn't mean that they're leaving China.
Speaker 8: It just means that we're the for the business that
Speaker 8: involves manufacturing to export to the United States, more and
Speaker 8: more of them are doing that elsewhere.
Speaker 5: So ana is it going through India, Vietnam? Why do
Speaker 5: we use seeing that show up.
Speaker 8: A combination of those and other places. But you know
Speaker 8: the reality is that there are no markets that can
Speaker 8: just absorb all of the export or all of the
Speaker 8: manufacturing that is done in China for the US market.
Speaker 8: So at a certain point, probably in the near future,
Speaker 8: these other markets are gonna take capacity, and then it'll
Speaker 8: be much more difficult and more expensive for companies to figure.
Speaker 5: Out where to go and out of interest, Who do
Speaker 5: you think is got the best strategy in how to
Speaker 5: handle that to move your manufacturing base out of China
Speaker 5: without isolating the Chinese consumer.
Speaker 8: Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna avoid naming any company, but
Speaker 8: I think I think the strategies that are really focused
Speaker 8: on in China for China and ramping up the manufacturing
Speaker 8: and development that's going on for the Chinese market are
Speaker 8: good strategy. They don't check every box for the Chinese
Speaker 8: government or in terms of risk management, but they check
Speaker 8: the most boxes.
Speaker 5: What a change, Anna Ashton of you Wright, you great, Kana,
Speaker 5: Thank you.
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