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Speaker 1: This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene, along

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Speaker 1: with Jonathan Farrow and Lisa Abramowitz. Join us each day

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Speaker 1: for insight from the best and economics, geopolitics, finance and investment.

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Speaker 1: Subscribe to Bloomberg Surveillance on demand on Apple, Spotify and

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Speaker 1: anywhere you get your podcasts, and always on Bloomberg dot Com,

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Terminal, and the Bloomberg Business App. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about debt right now with Dana Peterson, Chief

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Speaker 1: Economists the Conference Board. The Conference Board hugely aware of

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Speaker 1: the consumer and the business tone that's out there in

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Speaker 1: America along that line, and to take it from the

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Speaker 1: academics data, are we over debted right now? Are we

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Speaker 1: up to our eyeballs in credit debt?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? Certainly.

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Speaker 3: When would look at the consumer credit debt has risen

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Speaker 3: to where we were pre pandemic, delinquencies are up. When

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Speaker 3: we look at the sovereign debt in the US, it's

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Speaker 3: extremely elevated. Interest rates are rising and that's causing debt

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Speaker 3: service to rise as well. And we're concerned about both

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Speaker 3: the sovereign situation as well as consumers heading into a

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Speaker 3: season when they're going to run out of excess savings

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Speaker 3: and also maybe laden with student debt loaner payments.

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Speaker 4: Well to that exact point, Dana, we've been talking a

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Speaker 4: lot about the month of September. I am interested in October,

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Speaker 4: when those payments resume after years of being on pause

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Speaker 4: due to the pandemic. What economic impact is that likely

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Speaker 4: to have, given how this could be a very large

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Speaker 4: factor in household budgets.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's probably going to take several tenths off of

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Speaker 3: GDP growth in October, and it's going to weigh on

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Speaker 3: the outlook going forward because certainly, if people were using

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Speaker 3: credit cards to finance their debt, and they were also

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Speaker 3: taking that reprieve from student loan payments, when all those

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Speaker 3: things come doue, they're not going to spend and they're

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Speaker 3: probably going to start fearing for the economy in general

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Speaker 3: because their own personal finances will not be as robust

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Speaker 3: as they were.

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Speaker 4: Are we starting to see consumer behavior change already in

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Speaker 4: anticipation of that data. What evidence might you be seeing

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Speaker 4: of that?

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Speaker 3: Well, not really. We think consumers are still looking at

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Speaker 3: the fact that many of them are still working, They're

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Speaker 3: still spending on services, even though they're saying that the

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Speaker 3: types of services are going to spend on will be

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Speaker 3: more towards needs rather than once. But the point is

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Speaker 3: that they still anticipate that they're going to be spending

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Speaker 3: and they're not really looking forward to the fact that, yes,

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Speaker 3: they're going to have higher debts, their balance sheets are

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Speaker 3: not going to be as healthy, and certainly interest rates

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Speaker 3: are going to be very elevated in case they have

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Speaker 3: any emergencies where they might need to finance something. So

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Speaker 3: I think consumers are not really focused that much on

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Speaker 3: the future as much as they should be.

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Speaker 1: A Dana, you're expert at this. The theme that Jackson

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Speaker 1: Holme particularly our day was Managing director Gurghava of the

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Speaker 1: IMF and with Laguard the ECB, they both brought up fragmentation.

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Speaker 1: How fragmented is America right now? How disaggregated are we

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Speaker 1: in our economics?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you do have very different responses to

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Speaker 3: what's going on in the economy. Even when we look

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Speaker 3: at our own consumer confidence measure, you get different readings

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Speaker 3: by age and by income, and so we do think

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Speaker 3: there is quite a bit of fragmentation in the economy

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Speaker 3: right now.

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Speaker 1: Well, the fragmentation that's there I guess we see it

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Speaker 1: in the jobs report on Friday. A lot of people

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Speaker 1: are waiting for el, say sub one hundred thousand non

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Speaker 1: farm payrolls. How disaggregated is that number? I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty million for conversation, but as part

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Speaker 1: of that one hundred and fifty million flat in their

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Speaker 1: back any other part confident?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it really depends on what industry you're in. Certainly,

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Speaker 3: the industries where you have to show up to work

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Speaker 3: are still hiring. But the industries that were former pandemic

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Speaker 3: darlings like and finance, even transportation, warehousing, they're seeing job

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Speaker 3: losses and weakness. And even with the big revisions that

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Speaker 3: we saw in the payrolls data dating back from March

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Speaker 3: to twelve months prior, we saw that there were entire

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Speaker 3: gains wiped out. And so if you're in those sectors,

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Speaker 3: you're probably not as a buliant as if you are

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Speaker 3: in say hotels or restaurants or even healthcare, where there's

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Speaker 3: still quite a bit of hiring going on.

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Speaker 4: And finally, Dana, can I ask you about the housing

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Speaker 4: market and the mortgage rates that people are facing if

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Speaker 4: they're trying to buy a home or contending with it.

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Speaker 4: They're thinking about selling the home that they're in that

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Speaker 4: they have a lower rate on. How is that a

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Speaker 4: factor in the perception of the economic health of the

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Speaker 4: country that consumers feel if they're looking at home affordability

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Speaker 4: that is the worst it's been in decades. Rents that

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Speaker 4: also are incredibly high.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting you actually see bifurcation in the housing market.

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Speaker 3: Is this seeing home sales or down in the de

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Speaker 3: and prices are falling year on year because mortgage rates

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Speaker 3: are so high. Why would you move if you're going

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Speaker 3: to have a higher mortgage rate than what you have

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Speaker 3: now after you've probably refinanced a couple of times during

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Speaker 3: the pandemic. But then with new housing we're starting to

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Speaker 3: see a little bit of a pickup because you can't

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Speaker 3: get an existing home. But all in all, bordability is

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Speaker 3: certainly down because interest rates are so high, and also

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Speaker 3: in certain markets prices are still rising year on year

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Speaker 3: because this is very much about location.

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Speaker 1: Dana, thank you so much. Dana Peterson the conference board

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Speaker 1: with US.

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Speaker 5: Philo Landa joined US now chief equity strategists of Refederated

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Speaker 5: her Mace. Phil I'll ask the cool question again, is

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Speaker 5: the pullback more than I sational setback?

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Speaker 6: So Julian's a very smart guy. We've been looking for,

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Speaker 6: let's call it, a ten percent correction in stocks over

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Speaker 6: the course of the August of ten October period, which

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Speaker 6: would be seasonal. The question is what does valuation look

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Speaker 6: like these big technology stocks versus the rest of the market.

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Speaker 6: In the first you know, seven months of the year,

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Speaker 6: the tech stocks have dramatically outperformed the rest of the market,

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Speaker 6: and we felt that there would be sort of a

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Speaker 6: reversion of the mean during this you know, third quarter period.

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Speaker 6: You know, ten twelve percent is a reasonable place to start,

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Speaker 6: and let's see what the valuation looks like once we

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Speaker 6: get there.

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Speaker 1: So I'm coming into labor dam. I'm at the kitchen

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Speaker 1: counter at the second home, and I'm trying to reallocate

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Speaker 1: my portfolio. Am I reallocating with enthusiasm to equities looking

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Speaker 1: out three years? Or can I not have a three

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Speaker 1: year view because of the jumble of the news slow

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Speaker 1: right now?

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Speaker 6: No, if you've got a three year time horizon, Tom,

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Speaker 6: we're extraordinarily bullish. Our near term call somewhat tactical, is

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Speaker 6: somewhat defensive. That we've got a three percent overweight to

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Speaker 6: stocks overall, but our overweights are in domestic value, in

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Speaker 6: small cap and international. The one area that we've got

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Speaker 6: sort of a negative bias on is these grow technology names,

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Speaker 6: which we think got ahead of themselves. As we look

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Speaker 6: out three years, we will have seen peak inflation, we

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Speaker 6: will have seen peak FED valuation levels will be more reasonable,

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Speaker 6: maybe we get a change in leadership in Washington with

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Speaker 6: better fiscal policy approach. All of that suggests that stocks

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Speaker 6: three years from now we're going to be in much

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Speaker 6: better shape.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So, Philip, you suggest that we'll see the peak

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Speaker 4: and inflation, we'll see the peak and FED funds at

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Speaker 4: some point between now and three years from now, can

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Speaker 4: you get more specific about where that is? If we're

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Speaker 4: talking about higher for longer, how much longer? Realistically?

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Speaker 6: So, I think we're looking Kaihlee at about a six

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Speaker 6: to twelve month timeframe. The inflation has clearly peaked in

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Speaker 6: our mind last year. The question is the divergence between

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Speaker 6: the decline in headline inflation versus core inflation. Core inflation

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Speaker 6: is coming down at a much slower pace. Federal reserve

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Speaker 6: in our view, probably has one more quarter point hike

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Speaker 6: up their sleeves, maybe that November first meeting and then

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Speaker 6: they go on pause. But pause is going to last

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Speaker 6: a while. We don't expect them to come back in

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Speaker 6: and start cutting rates until perhaps this time next year.

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Speaker 6: Valuation levels, you know, because of the tech stocks were extended,

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Speaker 6: those valuation levels are coming back. Stocks are down about

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Speaker 6: six percent over the course of the last month or so.

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Speaker 6: And then, of course we've got this big election coming

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Speaker 6: up in November of next year, so it's going to

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Speaker 6: take a year or so for all of these things

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Speaker 6: to shake out. But again, using Tom's three year time horizon,

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Speaker 6: we're pretty excited about what the longer term picture looks like.

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Speaker 4: How does the longer term view on equities conflate with

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Speaker 4: what you expect in the bond market, because right now

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Speaker 4: the bond market frankly looks quite confused. But I wonder

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Speaker 4: how much the rate story is actually what is attribute

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Speaker 4: to the stagnation in the equity market we have seen no.

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Speaker 6: A great question and the backup in rates that we've

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Speaker 6: seen here from three and a quarter to four and

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Speaker 6: a quarter and benchmark ten's over the last say six

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Speaker 6: months or so, and that's exactly what our Duration Committee

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Speaker 6: shaired by R. J. Gallo was looking for. The idea

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Speaker 6: is that rates are going to peak here, you know,

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Speaker 6: in this four and a quarter four and a half

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Speaker 6: percent neighborhood, and looking out over the course of the

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Speaker 6: next six to twelve months, we're going to see rates

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Speaker 6: rally back, you know, into that three to three and

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Speaker 6: a quarter neighborhood. So, you know, it's been painful for

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Speaker 6: bond investors over the last six months or so. We

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Speaker 6: think looking out over the course of the next year,

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Speaker 6: with the potential for slower economic growth, bonds will rally.

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Speaker 1: Phill Orlando retail got absolutely slammed last week. Does that

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Speaker 1: give you pause on profitable Walmart trading at twenty x

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Speaker 1: times you know earnings?

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Speaker 6: Tom It certainly gives us pause because one of the

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Speaker 6: things we track pretty closely is the performance of the

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Speaker 6: consumer during Mapril, back to school and Christmas and back

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Speaker 6: to school season. We're only two months in. We've got

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Speaker 6: June and July data, but retail sales are only up

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Speaker 6: about two point four percent year on year. A year ago,

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Speaker 6: retail sales are up nine point eight percent over that

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Speaker 6: period of time. We saw the same situation with Mapril

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Speaker 6: the March and April Easter sales, we're only up one

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Speaker 6: point seven percent year on year. We think Christmas sales

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Speaker 6: are going to be again sort of that low single digit.

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Speaker 6: So for a number of reasons, the consumer is slowing down.

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Speaker 6: GDP is seventy percent generated by the consumer, so that's

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Speaker 6: something we're watching pretty closely.

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Speaker 5: So do you thinkish some tension here between what we're

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Speaker 5: pricing in the bond market, particularly the front end, which

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Speaker 5: is high for longer, and what's developing abroad, specifically in China.

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Speaker 6: So China has been a disappointment, no question. We've got

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Speaker 6: a longer term review on China that given the problems

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Speaker 6: that they're having right now, it is inconceivable to us

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Speaker 6: that we do not see aggressive fiscal and monetary policy

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Speaker 6: in China looking out over the next six to twelve

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Speaker 6: months to try to reverse those fortunes. So we like

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Speaker 6: international in part because we're expecting the Chinese government is

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Speaker 6: going to step in here and try to turn things

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Speaker 6: around and improve the economic fortunes of China over the

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Speaker 6: next year.

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Speaker 5: Now happens yet in a big way, that's for sure, Phil,

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Speaker 5: Thank you sir, that's for sure. Phil Orlando, Federated Hermei's

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Speaker 5: range of efforts from Chinese policy makers over the weekend.

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Speaker 1: It is the end of the summer. We are all recalibrating.

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Speaker 1: Children are being lectured on summer reading and getting ready

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Speaker 1: for school. Part of that across this nation is to

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Speaker 1: get the tone of America. No one does that better

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Speaker 1: than Gallup, Venerable Gallup, their editor in chief, Mohammad Units

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Speaker 1: has just been exquisite on the big picture of America.

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Speaker 1: Mohammed an open question. What is the mood of America

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Speaker 1: as we enter September?

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Speaker 7: Not good on the several fronts. Not good. If you

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Speaker 7: are a federal government official.

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Speaker 2: No matter what institution you're leading, right now, you're facing

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Speaker 2: a record.

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Speaker 7: Low in confidence. And that even applies to the Supreme

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Speaker 7: Court and the military.

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Speaker 2: But politically speaking, guys, what we see is really the

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Speaker 2: Biden administration struggling to get Americans behind what they're doing

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Speaker 2: with the economy. Big effort the past couple of weeks,

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Speaker 2: you guys covered it. But right now President Biden has

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Speaker 2: sixty plus percent of people who disapprove of the way

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Speaker 2: he's handling this economy. So as people go back to

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Speaker 2: school and as confidence at higher institutions is.

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Speaker 7: Also at a record low. People have the economy on

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Speaker 7: their mind this fall.

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Speaker 1: Does President Trump own the Republican Party or is there

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Speaker 1: a party out there of our collective memory.

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Speaker 7: Right now, if you follow the numbers he does.

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Speaker 2: Nobody is even close to giving him any kind of

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Speaker 2: a challenge in terms of favorable ratings.

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Speaker 7: That being said, his favorable rating is not high. It's

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Speaker 7: forty one. It's the same as President Biden's.

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Speaker 2: And again we're going to see an election where Americans

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Speaker 2: for the most part, are choosing between options they're not

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Speaker 2: thrilled about unless somebody knew and miraculous jumps in the ring,

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Speaker 2: and it doesn't look like that's going.

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Speaker 7: To happen right now.

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Speaker 4: Mohammed, to return to the subject of President Biden and

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Speaker 4: his approval ratings, and as you know, they remain low.

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Speaker 4: On the economy. You have a graphic in your polling

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Speaker 4: that just shows that even over the course of the

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Speaker 4: last year in change, as we have seen inflation continually

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Speaker 4: going down, the line almost moves sideways. He's not getting

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Speaker 4: any credit for things improving well. The greater credit come

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Speaker 4: potentially on the downside in the form of blame for

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Speaker 4: any further deterioration. We see from here.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, look, presidents either do a great job taking

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Speaker 2: credit for the economy or they do a horrible job

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Speaker 2: and they get blamed for anything that's going wrong. I

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Speaker 2: think right now the Biden folks are in that ladder category.

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Speaker 2: In contrast, of course, President Trump was doing a pretty

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Speaker 2: good job taking credit for a booming economy before COVID.

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Speaker 2: Those dynamics are probably not going to change, Kayley, I

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Speaker 2: don't see President Biden suddenly convincing the public that he's

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Speaker 2: doing great. His basis supporting him. Support among Democrats was

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Speaker 2: a little bit lower. It's back up to about eighty one.

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Speaker 2: So he's really got who he's got historically speaking. To

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Speaker 2: really be an incumbent that has a chance, you've got

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Speaker 2: to hit the fifty percent plus mark.

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Speaker 7: And the big debate in the polling world these.

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Speaker 2: Days is is that a dynamic of the past and

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Speaker 2: are we moving into a different era right now?

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Speaker 7: Neither Biden nor Trump are even close to fifty.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So on the subject of Trump, I was mentioning earlier, Mohammad,

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Speaker 4: we have this hearing in the Washington case. There's a

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Speaker 4: hearing in Georgia as well. Today when we're going to

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Speaker 4: be talking about a trial that could fall in the

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Speaker 4: middle of primary season. We understood from reporting over the

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Speaker 4: w that all the fourth indictment of the president, his

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Speaker 4: arrest and mugshot in Georgia, seems to have accomplished for

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Speaker 4: him at least at this point is raising a bunch

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Speaker 4: of money seven million dollars four point two I believe

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Speaker 4: on Friday alone. Do you have any reason to expect

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Speaker 4: that he will start to see a deterioration in his

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Speaker 4: attractiveness to his base as these legal challenges just keep mounting.

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Speaker 7: I don't, And here's why.

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Speaker 2: We did a recent analysis looking at the past twenty

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Speaker 2: years of the issues Democrats and Republicans have diverged the most.

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Speaker 2: On the number one issue, Kayley, has been the size

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Speaker 2: of the federal government, a fifty point gap between Republicans

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Speaker 2: and Democrats. And you'll notice that President Trump is framing

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Speaker 2: his entire defense essentially based on an overreach of government

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Speaker 2: that's stifling his right to free speech, his right to.

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Speaker 7: Challenge the election, etc.

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Speaker 2: The more that he does that, the more that he's

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Speaker 2: driving right into the narrative that his base wants to

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Speaker 2: hear most of all, So before those reasons I really

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Speaker 2: don't see it harming him much.

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Speaker 1: Mohammed, which state is your galap guide state towards November

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Speaker 1: of next year? Is there one state where you wake

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Speaker 1: up and say, pay attention to Ohio or pay attention

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Speaker 1: to Georgia? I mean, which is a state that you study?

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Speaker 7: There are none that we study, really, Tom.

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Speaker 2: What we do is try to understand the national mood

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Speaker 2: and the national average. Now, of course swing states are key,

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Speaker 2: but really every cycle, in the last three to four cycles,

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Speaker 2: there have been different key swing states. It's really early,

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Speaker 2: I think right now. Depending maybe when we have a

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Speaker 2: one person running for the Republican Party, you point to

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Speaker 2: a state if that person is connected to it.

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Speaker 7: But it's not just going to be a one state

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Speaker 7: game this year.

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Speaker 4: Finally, Mohammed, when I look at your breakdown of the

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Speaker 4: different approval or situations and the approval for the president,

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Speaker 4: I noticed that his highest approval rating is on the

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Speaker 4: situation in Ukraine. As we had on the debate stage,

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Speaker 4: candidates calling into question last week the idea that the

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Speaker 4: US should continue to provide funding. Members of Congress also

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Speaker 4: making a lot of noise about the US not aiding

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Speaker 4: Ukraine in the same way we have for the last

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Speaker 4: eighteen months. Where are the American people on this issue?

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Speaker 2: The American people are mostly behind Ukraine, but Republicans are

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Speaker 2: split on Ukraine. And this is a really persistent split

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Speaker 2: that's consistent now since the beginning of the war. You

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Speaker 2: have half of Republicans that very much are the opinion

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Speaker 2: that we should not be doing so much. But there's

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Speaker 2: another half of the Republicans around forty five percent that

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Speaker 2: really want to see Ukraine fight through and win back

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Speaker 2: all the territory they've lost.

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Speaker 1: Mom in ten seconds, what's been the Taylor Swift impact

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Speaker 1: across America? Is it permanent?

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Speaker 7: I think? I'm from Los Angeles, I think so.

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Speaker 2: I think the future of America has more to do

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Speaker 2: with entertainment than anything.

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Speaker 1: Right there we go, mahamm thanks for that final point.

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Speaker 1: Appreciate it. Annaeshton joins us this morning, and what do

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Speaker 1: you think of the Chinese coverage? It's a cottage industry

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Speaker 1: right now for people like you, there's like five articles

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Speaker 1: a day. I feel like I have to read What

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Speaker 1: am I missing? What do you see in your China analysis?

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Speaker 1: That's not in the zeitgeist right now?

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Speaker 8: So, you know, I wish there were only five articles

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Speaker 8: a day that I had to read, because it definitely

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Speaker 8: has become something of a cottage industry. I think that

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Speaker 8: the interesting thing that's happening right now really is this

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Speaker 8: statunt that the Biden administration and Chinese leadership have been

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Speaker 8: pursuing for the entirety of the summer. And I know

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Speaker 8: that that's not new, and it is something that people

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Speaker 8: have had every reason to see, but I think you

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Speaker 8: know the fact that it's being carried out by the

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Speaker 8: Biden administration at this time when we're headed into a

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Speaker 8: presidential election year, and I really had expected a couple

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Speaker 8: of years ago that by now there would be nothing

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Speaker 8: but a competition to be the most hawkish on China.

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Speaker 8: It's very interesting to see the Biden administration deciding that

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Speaker 8: stability is the course it wants to.

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Speaker 5: Chart, and this way key for Secretary Ramondo. What would

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Speaker 5: you expect from four days and meetings from the COMMAS Secretary?

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Speaker 8: I think that this is the most important visit we've

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Speaker 8: had so far from a member of the administration because

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Speaker 8: she oversees export controls, and export controls are the things,

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Speaker 8: among others, but a mainstay of the tech policies that

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Speaker 8: the United States has rolled out in recent years that

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Speaker 8: China is most bothered by. Feels that this is an

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Speaker 8: effort to contain their technological advancement and even likely to

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Speaker 8: undermine their economic prosperity. So they're pretty upset about the

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Speaker 8: export controls and about things like the Executive Order on

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Speaker 8: outbound investment that also constrains US abilities to invest certain

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Speaker 8: sectors in China, including AI, quantum and semiconductor chips. And

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Speaker 8: now they're going to be with the woman who is

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Speaker 8: overseeing all of that. She's already sat on the ground

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Speaker 8: that national security concerns are non negotiable, but emphasized that

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Speaker 8: that's just one percent of the US economy, And she's

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Speaker 8: really pushed for a more robust and more stable commercial relationship,

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Speaker 8: and she's gotten some receptivity from her counterparts.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we've heard that they're going to be talking. There's

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Speaker 4: going to be an export group meeting tomorrow on August

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Speaker 4: twenty ninth. To your point, Anna, we've heard from her

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Speaker 4: and continuously from administration officials that this is about protecting

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Speaker 4: national security interests. It is not about holding China back economically.

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Speaker 4: But can you really have one without the other? Isn't

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Speaker 4: protecting national security interests to at least a certain degree,

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Speaker 4: going to hit China economically by default.

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Speaker 8: Yes, by default, it absolutely will, Kaylee. And you know,

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Speaker 8: the reality is that these export controls, starting last October,

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Speaker 8: with the ones that Jake Sullivan announced, they're really quite restrictive.

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Speaker 8: They don't just prevent China from buying things that are

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Speaker 8: state of the art. They prevent China from buying anything

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Speaker 8: in the future that is smaller than what these restrictions

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Speaker 8: have set down, and smaller being more state of the art.

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Speaker 8: So they're kind of trying to hold China at a

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Speaker 8: certain place in its technological development.

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Speaker 1: And all of this is about fancy technology stuff. But

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Speaker 1: the fact is in my house still like eighty percent

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Speaker 1: of the garbage that comes in the door in cardboard

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Speaker 1: boxes says made in China. Has there been any lessening

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Speaker 1: of all the stuff we buy that's made in China.

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Speaker 1: It's not going to be in a balloon over Wyoming.

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Speaker 8: This is an interesting question because of the recent numbers.

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Speaker 8: So the numbers for all of twenty twenty two showed

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Speaker 8: that trade was an all time high over seven billion dollars,

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Speaker 8: but recent numbers have indicated that experts from China and

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Speaker 8: to the United States specifically have dropped by twenty five

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Speaker 8: percent so far this year, the biggest drop in a

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Speaker 8: very long time.

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Speaker 1: What was that? But this is important? What was the

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Speaker 1: drop due to? Was it electric vehicles from China? Or

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Speaker 1: was it you know, the coasters? We just had to

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Speaker 1: get coasters, John for the deck, you know the tonic

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Speaker 1: the got and what caused that drop in Chinese exports

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Speaker 1: to America.

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Speaker 8: So there's there's lots of speculation about that, but I

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Speaker 8: think that it really is likely that it is a

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Speaker 8: sign of US companies beginning to diversify their supply chains

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Speaker 8: and so more of the inputs for the goods that

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Speaker 8: they are bringing into the United States are made in

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Speaker 8: places other than China. That doesn't mean that they're leaving China.

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Speaker 8: It just means that we're the for the business that

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Speaker 8: involves manufacturing to export to the United States, more and

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Speaker 8: more of them are doing that elsewhere.

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Speaker 5: So ana is it going through India, Vietnam? Why do

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Speaker 5: we use seeing that show up.

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Speaker 8: A combination of those and other places. But you know

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Speaker 8: the reality is that there are no markets that can

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Speaker 8: just absorb all of the export or all of the

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Speaker 8: manufacturing that is done in China for the US market.

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Speaker 8: So at a certain point, probably in the near future,

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Speaker 8: these other markets are gonna take capacity, and then it'll

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Speaker 8: be much more difficult and more expensive for companies to figure.

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Speaker 5: Out where to go and out of interest, Who do

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Speaker 5: you think is got the best strategy in how to

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Speaker 5: handle that to move your manufacturing base out of China

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Speaker 5: without isolating the Chinese consumer.

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Speaker 8: Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna avoid naming any company, but

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Speaker 8: I think I think the strategies that are really focused

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Speaker 8: on in China for China and ramping up the manufacturing

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Speaker 8: and development that's going on for the Chinese market are

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Speaker 8: good strategy. They don't check every box for the Chinese

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Speaker 8: government or in terms of risk management, but they check

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Speaker 8: the most boxes.

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Speaker 5: What a change, Anna Ashton of you Wright, you great, Kana,

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Speaker 5: Thank you.

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