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Speaker 1: I think we have the best legal system.

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Speaker 2: It's just the people that implement it.

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Speaker 3: They get lost along the way and.

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Speaker 1: Forget what the job really is.

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Speaker 2: He just kept on trying to remind me that who

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Speaker 2: was in authority, who was in control, and how easy

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Speaker 2: it was for my body to be found in any

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Speaker 2: alley of New York City.

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Speaker 1: It's a tough prison when you have the guards going

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Speaker 1: against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.

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Speaker 1: They do that.

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Speaker 4: They'll give a guy a life sentence and go home

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Speaker 4: in East Spaghetti like it was nothing.

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Speaker 2: And anybody that said, well, why would you confess to

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Speaker 2: something that you didn't do? My question to them will

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Speaker 2: be why wouldn't you confess when somebody's threatening to kill

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Speaker 2: your life?

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Speaker 3: The judge, he said, how you feel? I said, I'm okay.

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Speaker 3: He said, well the day as you're lucky, day you

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Speaker 3: go home.

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Speaker 1: This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 1: Jason Flomm. Today we have a very special episode. We

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Speaker 1: have two fabulous Pennsylvania ladies. Our very special guest is

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Speaker 1: Krystal Weimer, who is an ax hoonery from Western Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 5: January two thousand and one, someone killed Curtis Hath outside

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Speaker 5: his Fayette County home. He had been beaten and shocked

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Speaker 5: after being convicted of plotting the murder that spanned three

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Speaker 5: towns in Fayette County. Crystal was behind bars for twelve

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Speaker 5: years at the time. They said her teeth led.

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Speaker 1: Them to her.

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Speaker 5: A dental impression was taken over teeth, and they were

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Speaker 5: compared to a picture of a bite mark on the

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Speaker 5: victim's body, which we're found to be a match. Actually,

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Speaker 5: that's not true. Scientific expert who testified to all of

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Speaker 5: that in court later said it was junk science and

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Speaker 5: he was wrong.

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Speaker 6: At today's post conviction relief Act, doctor Constantine car Zulas

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Speaker 6: testified that a bitemarked fan on the victim's hand was

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Speaker 6: Weimer's due to a bitemark analysis that he now considers

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Speaker 6: to be junk science. After doctor Carzulas testified and without

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Speaker 6: hearing any further testimony, President Judge John Wagner granted a

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Speaker 6: retrial for Wimer.

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Speaker 5: It was Crystal who started her own path to freedom,

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Speaker 5: acting as her own attorney, filing paperwork. The Pennsylvania Innocence

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Speaker 5: Project and the Jones Day Law Firm got involved. They

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Speaker 5: found other problems with the police investigation and the prosecution

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Speaker 5: and convinced to judge she is not the killer. Weimer's

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Speaker 5: attorneys believe the real killer has never been caught.

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Speaker 1: Crystal, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: And with Crystal is her fabulous lawyer, Neila M. Sangvie,

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Speaker 1: who is the legal director of the Pennsylvania Innists Project,

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Speaker 1: and really looking forward to hearing from you and learning

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Speaker 1: from the first time we've had some from the Pennsylvanian

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Speaker 1: Instance Project on the show. So welcome, Thanks for happy

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Speaker 1: to be here. So, Crystal, your story is insane, even

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Speaker 1: by our very lofty standards of insanity. Here at wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: You had the whole pot pirie of causes of wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: I mean, your case involved false confession by a co defendant,

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Speaker 1: It involved police and prosecutoral misconduct. It involved bitemark evidence,

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Speaker 1: which we know is put it politely, horseshit right. And

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Speaker 1: there's more. It's a fascinating study and terrifying study into

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Speaker 1: just how many things can go wrong. So let's go

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Speaker 1: back to two thousand and one and even before you

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Speaker 1: grew up in Pennsylvania. Yes, and what was that like?

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Speaker 1: What was your We always like to spend a few

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Speaker 1: minutes talking about what life was like before this catastrophe happened.

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Speaker 3: It was good.

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Speaker 4: I used to work at a plan in newsday and

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Speaker 4: assembling TVs and radios and things of that nature.

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Speaker 3: And I was working three on, three.

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Speaker 4: Off, two one two off days, twelve hour shifts. I

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Speaker 4: was a single mother, raising my children by myself.

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Speaker 1: What are their names?

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Speaker 4: My oldest is Rose, she was ten, Miranda was seven,

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Speaker 4: and the baby was Bridget and she was four. The

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Speaker 4: high life of my life was them raising them and

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Speaker 4: making sure they were off to school and went to work,

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Speaker 4: and was living life on an everyday basis.

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Speaker 1: Not an easy life by any stretch, right, working a

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Speaker 1: difficult job, but a good job, and still raising three kids.

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Speaker 1: And I have so much respect for single moms everywhere

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Speaker 1: I see the amount of work that goes into raising children.

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Speaker 1: It's incredible. So the idea that you were able to

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Speaker 1: hold it together, you know, while working, is really my

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Speaker 1: hat's off to you. So how could this have possibly happened?

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Speaker 1: How could you sort of, I guess you could call

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Speaker 1: a typical American, right, working, raising children, living sort of

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Speaker 1: a regular type of place, right, How could you become

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Speaker 1: ensnared in this craziest possible situation.

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Speaker 4: I don't even have the answers. I don't know how

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Speaker 4: to even say how it all began.

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Speaker 1: Or let me give some details to the audience and then, Neil,

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Speaker 1: if you could jump in any time you want. So,

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Speaker 1: this was a case where a guy named Curtis Hayth

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Speaker 1: was murdered outside his apartment building around four am on

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Speaker 1: January twenty seventh of two thousand and one. And I

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Speaker 1: guess the only reason that it even any attention was

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Speaker 1: paid to you in the first place was because that

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Speaker 1: night you had been at a party with him, right,

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Speaker 1: with a lot of other people. Yes, attending a party

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Speaker 1: with somebody and murdering them or very different legally.

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Speaker 7: Speaking, right, I mean, I think what the police did

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Speaker 7: made sense because when this man died, they wanted to know, okay,

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Speaker 7: who else saw him, what was he doing? So it

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Speaker 7: actually kind of made sense as a starting point for

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Speaker 7: the investigation to talk to everybody he'd been with. But

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Speaker 7: then obviously things took a wrong turn from that point on.

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Speaker 1: Right, So, Crystal, you and a friend had given him

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Speaker 1: a ride home from the party around ten o'clock.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it was me and my cousin.

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Speaker 1: God could, yes, but then you went back to the party.

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Speaker 3: I went back to uniont where I was.

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Speaker 1: Right, and he was murdered six hours later or so,

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Speaker 1: at four o'clock in the morning. And by that time,

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming you were home asleep with your kids. Right,

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Speaker 1: So how did this start to go wrong? Because it

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Speaker 1: took a long time. I mean, this kid, this was

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Speaker 1: a cold case, right, you know? Right?

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Speaker 7: They investigated for about a year after mister Hayes murder

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Speaker 7: and really didn't have any leads. They questioned Crystal and

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Speaker 7: a lot of other people, but didn't really have any leads.

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Speaker 7: And then about a year into it, they brought in

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Speaker 7: a Pennsylvania State trooper from the Cold Case Squad to

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Speaker 7: try to investigate more. Because this is a relatively small

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Speaker 7: town and an unsolved Thomas side is kind of big news,

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Speaker 7: So they brought in the cold case squad and it's

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Speaker 7: at that point that they started looking into the potential

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Speaker 7: bitemark evidence that really became a lynchpin of the case

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Speaker 7: against Crystal as things went.

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Speaker 1: For so the victim had been bitten.

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Speaker 7: Well supposedly, we don't based on what we know now,

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Speaker 7: are not even sure whether it was a human bitemark.

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Speaker 7: There was an oval shaped bruise on the victim's hand

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Speaker 7: that was not identified as a bitemark during the autopsy.

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Speaker 7: But when this person from the cold case squad came

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Speaker 7: in and was looking at the autopsy photographs, she saw

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Speaker 7: it and said, well, I think this is a bitemark,

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Speaker 7: even though she was not a dentist or an odentologist

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Speaker 7: by training, and then started looking at it from that angle.

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Speaker 1: So the trained mortician or corner right, the.

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Speaker 7: Forensic pathologist right that did the autopsy.

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Speaker 1: Wasn't able to see a bitemark and clearly was looking

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Speaker 1: for any signs that they could find because it was

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Speaker 1: a murder, right right.

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Speaker 7: And we looked into this when we were investigating the case.

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Speaker 7: What do you look for in an autopsy? And if

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Speaker 7: you're a forensic pathologist, bite marks are one of the things,

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Speaker 7: even at that time, that you were supposed to look

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Speaker 7: for and account for and preserve in a certain way

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Speaker 7: if you saw it. And the pathologist did none of

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Speaker 7: those things, right.

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Speaker 1: So, what I'm trying to wrap myself around here is

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Speaker 1: and this is just the first of so many I mean,

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Speaker 1: whacky is a weird way to put it, but so

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Speaker 1: many whacky things about this case. But I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: wrap myself around to the idea that you have a

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Speaker 1: trained pathologist forensic pathologist who is examining the body and

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Speaker 1: looking with a fine tooth comb or microscope what everyone

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Speaker 1: to call it, for any signs of foul play, but

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Speaker 1: yet does not see or report anything to do with

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Speaker 1: any bite marks. But yet a state trooper. Right, there's

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Speaker 1: no training in this area, Right, A lay person is

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Speaker 1: going to look at a photograph one dimensional a year

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Speaker 1: later and go, I got this. I figured it out

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Speaker 1: like some sort of Sherlock Holmes moment and say, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's a bite mark. And we know, from having examined

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Speaker 1: and uncovered and had to undo cases around the country

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Speaker 1: related to bitemark evidence, it is probably the junkiest form

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Speaker 1: of science that there is. I mean, there's so many

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Speaker 1: cases that we've seen where they don't know whether it's

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Speaker 1: a human bitemark, it could be an animal, it could

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Speaker 1: be totally something, totally right exactly. So this was the

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Speaker 1: beginning of what became a real life nightmare for Crystal.

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Speaker 1: So then things start getting really tangled, right, and really complicated,

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Speaker 1: because there's a whole cast of characters here that are

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Speaker 1: all out for themselves and are all working across purposes

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Speaker 1: and all working at trying to well save their own asses, right, right,

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Speaker 1: This is where the incentivized witness thing comes into play, right.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to talk about that a little.

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Speaker 7: Bit now, Yeah, So, the incentivized witnesses in this case,

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Speaker 7: it's interesting, actually didn't start even coming forward until Crystal

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Speaker 7: had already been arrested and charged with the murder. So

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Speaker 7: after this BikeE mark story comes out, they're talking to

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Speaker 7: other people and there's a guy in the county jail

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Speaker 7: named Joey Stenger who offers to give the police some

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Speaker 7: information about Crystal and about this murder, and he's got

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Speaker 7: a bunch of charges, so I think he was hoping

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Speaker 7: for something, but at this point he wasn't promised anything,

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Speaker 7: so it wasn't really incentivized at that point. But he

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Speaker 7: essentially confesses to committing the murder and implicates Crystal in

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Speaker 7: it with him. So they move forward based on this

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Speaker 7: spiite mark evidence, based on this witness Joey Stenger, and

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Speaker 7: some other things they had cobbled together. And then years

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Speaker 7: after Curtis's deaths in two thousand and four and two

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Speaker 7: thousand and five, when Crystal's in the County jail. You

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Speaker 7: get other prisoners coming out of the woodwork saying they've

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Speaker 7: heard Crystal confess to them, which just seems ludicrous given

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Speaker 7: the you know, in particular, the amount of time that

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Speaker 7: had passed since the murder, and they, as it turns out,

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Speaker 7: we found out much later, we're all asking for deals

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Speaker 7: in exchange for implicating Crystal.

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Speaker 1: Again, we're supposed to believe that you, in an effort

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Speaker 1: to purge your soul, are going up to total strangers

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Speaker 1: in the jail and telling each of them your story

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Speaker 1: about how you murdered Curtis haythe one night in January

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Speaker 1: of two thousand and one.

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Speaker 4: Well, the sad part was, I didn't even know a

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Speaker 4: lot of the people. I just met them through testimony

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Speaker 4: or paperwork and stuff to that nature. I didn't I

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Speaker 4: never even met him, like want a face to face basis,

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Speaker 4: So I didn't even know who most.

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Speaker 3: Of them were.

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Speaker 1: So what happened here, it sounds to me like is

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Speaker 1: going back fifteen years to when all this stuff was

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Speaker 1: taking place. Is that, as we see time and again,

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Speaker 1: the police and prosecutor came up with a theory and

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Speaker 1: then in the absence of any physical evidence, because it

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Speaker 1: wasn't any They had to figure out a way to

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Speaker 1: convince a jury that you were this cold blooded killer.

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Speaker 1: Did you have prior violent arrests in your past? No,

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Speaker 1: you never murdered anybody else, never like it can blow

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Speaker 1: up anything record. No, No, you weren't like a You

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Speaker 1: weren't like a mugger karthif I's kidding, I mean.

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Speaker 3: Like I said, you find sense of humor and all

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Speaker 3: this madness.

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Speaker 1: I tried to because otherwise it's just too depressing. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: they would have had without having gone to these lengths

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Speaker 1: that they did to fabricate evidence against you. Very hard

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Speaker 1: to imagine that the jury would have convicted you, because

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Speaker 1: what would they have said, Here's this woman who was

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Speaker 1: raising three children, working a job, respectable citizen, with no

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Speaker 1: prior history of violence. One day just up and murdered

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Speaker 1: this guy at four o'clock in the morning, and we

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Speaker 1: have no evidence to show you, but you should take

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Speaker 1: our word for it. That basically would have been the

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Speaker 1: case a judgment. I mean, somebody would have thrown that

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Speaker 1: thing out. Our jury would have said, they would have

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Speaker 1: taken ten minutes and they would have said, this is ridiculous,

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Speaker 1: We're going home. Right.

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Speaker 7: And actually the charges against Crystal were thrown out the

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Speaker 7: very first time they tried to bring them. This is

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Speaker 7: when the additional informants and people start coming in, and

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Speaker 7: they charged her again, and it was the second time

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Speaker 7: that the charges stuck. So what you're saying actually did

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Speaker 7: happen essentially the first time around.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's in two thousand and four, right, which is

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Speaker 1: already more than three years after the crime was committed.

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Speaker 1: The case was dismissed against you because Beale recanted his

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Speaker 1: earlier that you the murder, and he refused to testify.

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Speaker 4: He was the very first one that recanted. Joey's singer

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Speaker 4: was the second one that recanted his statement. So whenever

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Speaker 4: Bill recanted, they released me. But they never released me

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Speaker 4: because of prejudice. They just released me and the judge

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Speaker 4: gave them the option to refel charges against me for

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Speaker 4: the second arrest. So I was begging to go back

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Speaker 4: to prison, which is absurd, knowing that they were going

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Speaker 4: to do this again to me, just to have a

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Speaker 4: trial so I didn't have to go through all this

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Speaker 4: again the second time.

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Speaker 1: And then who's taking care of your children this well.

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Speaker 4: My two oldest daughters were with their grandmother. Whenever all

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Speaker 4: this took place, she was putting them off to school

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Speaker 4: and making sure they were okay. Well that year, whenever

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Speaker 4: I got released, I had three different apartments, Like I

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Speaker 4: was trying to come out and get myself back together,

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Speaker 4: and here they come again.

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Speaker 3: It was just crazy.

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Speaker 4: So I couldn't get myself together and make sure I

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Speaker 4: was taking care of them, not knowing what they were going.

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Speaker 3: To do to me again.

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Speaker 4: So I wanted to make sure they were in a

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Speaker 4: stable environment, which I left them with their grandparents, not

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Speaker 4: knowing if they were going to come rearrest me again

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Speaker 4: for the second time, or what was going to occur.

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Speaker 4: So I wanted them in a safe environment.

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Speaker 3: That's why I left them where they were.

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Speaker 1: But even still, the idea, I mean, what is that

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Speaker 1: like being locked up for something you didn't do and

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Speaker 1: then not being able to tuck your kids in or

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Speaker 1: read them a story or you know. I mean, especially

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Speaker 1: as they're sort of their only parent and as a mom, like,

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Speaker 1: how how did you deal with that when you're in prison?

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Speaker 1: How did you keep your sanity?

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Speaker 3: It was extremely hard.

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Speaker 4: I mean, as far as being depressed and crying all

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Speaker 4: the time, emotional. I would go see a therapist and

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Speaker 4: the counsel all the time. I tried to go to

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Speaker 4: a church. It was just so hard on a daily basis.

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Speaker 4: A part of you just gone. Your baby's just gone.

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Speaker 4: And no words can even describe that feeling.

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Speaker 3: That's horrible. That's the worst feeling in the world. Like

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Speaker 3: the babies that.

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Speaker 4: You bore, that you were supposed to be secure and

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Speaker 4: love and neuturing and mom and make sure their needs

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Speaker 4: are met and just quality time, security time, just everything

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Speaker 4: just being ripped apart and away from Oh, it is

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Speaker 4: this horrible, horrible in my heart and my mind, my emotions.

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Speaker 4: I don't even know how I cope and dealt with it.

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Speaker 3: I just.

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Speaker 7: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I just try one day at a time. I just

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Speaker 4: kept praying. I didn't know what else to do. But

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Speaker 4: it pushed me to be persistent. Knowing I was innocent

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Speaker 4: and I was wrong. Then I was coming home, So

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Speaker 4: it pushed me even more so to fight and take

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Speaker 4: a stand for what I believe in. And I knew

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Speaker 4: in my heart I was going to come home. I

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Speaker 4: just didn't know when or how long.

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Speaker 1: Well I'm getting the chills thinking about this. So you

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Speaker 1: were rearrested in September of two thousand and four, and

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Speaker 1: you went to trial. Yes, and you were represented by

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Speaker 1: a public deffect at the time. Yes, right. They have

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Speaker 1: a lot of respect for lawyers in general. But we

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Speaker 1: do know that the public defender situation in this country

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Speaker 1: is a crisis, nothing less than a crisis. We have

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Speaker 1: a situation, I think in every state where they are underpaid,

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Speaker 1: they're overburdened, they're overworked. Some of them are incompetent, but

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Speaker 1: many of them are very competent, but they have an

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Speaker 1: impossible task. So if you're in this situation and don't

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Speaker 1: have money to defend yourself, and sometimes even if you do,

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Speaker 1: you have really a snowballs chance in hell of getting justice,

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Speaker 1: and you now go to trial, it must have seemed

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Speaker 1: like a circus.

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Speaker 3: It was a circus.

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Speaker 4: I was just in awe with all these people coming

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Speaker 4: on and stand and testifying, and I was just like,

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Speaker 4: what where did this come from? I'm shaking my head

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Speaker 4: and looking like wow.

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Speaker 1: And Neilon. Not only were they coming in and saying

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Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff that wasn't true, but they were

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Speaker 1: also changing their lives. There were different lives on different days,

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Speaker 1: right from the same person. The stinger guy changed his

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Speaker 1: story again and again, I mean doesn't at some point

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Speaker 1: somebody go, wait a minute, this guy is totally full

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Speaker 1: of shit, right, I mean that forgive my language, but

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Speaker 1: I mean he just kept coming up with new lies.

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Speaker 7: Yeah. By our account, by the time we got through

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Speaker 7: the trial, the post conviction procedure and we're looking at

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Speaker 7: a potential new trial, Stanger had given about fifteen different

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Speaker 7: accounts of the events, and there were changes every time.

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Speaker 7: So you wonder how the jury could believe this guy,

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Speaker 7: which they really had to do because he was the

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Speaker 7: only evidence that claimed to have firsthand knowledge of Crystal

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Speaker 7: being at the scene, which of.

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Speaker 5: Course was not true.

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Speaker 7: But the jury really had to believe him, and they did,

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Speaker 7: which I think just shows you that if it's the

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Speaker 7: prosecution putting up the witness, sometimes that's really all you

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Speaker 7: need and it doesn't matter that much what they say.

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Speaker 1: He admitted that he was coached by the police, right,

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Speaker 1: which is again it's a fact. I think most people

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Speaker 1: sit there and go, well, that can't happen. That's not allowed.

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Speaker 1: And he admitted that the police told him what to say.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, he recanted. He said that they fed him the

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Speaker 7: information basically.

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Speaker 1: Right, And that's done in ways, both subtle and not

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Speaker 1: so subtle. Right. You know. The fact is we see

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Speaker 1: in so many of these wrongful convictions police that feed

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Speaker 1: information either like I said, sort of artfully right by

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Speaker 1: in a suggestive in a roundabout way. In this case,

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Speaker 1: it was much more blatant. Right, They just told them

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Speaker 1: what they wanted him to say. But jury's I mean,

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Speaker 1: sometimes they don't hear that. Sometimes they don't know. If

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Speaker 1: it's not videotape, it should be. Videotips should always be videotaped.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the things we are working so hard

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Speaker 1: on at innocence projects around the country, especially one in

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Speaker 1: New York as the mandatory videotaping of interrogation. Strangely enough,

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Speaker 1: New York State doesn't have it.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, in Pennsylvania we don't have it. A couple of

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Speaker 7: counties have started doing it just within the last.

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Speaker 4: Year or so.

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Speaker 7: In this case, it's interesting one of Joey's statements to

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Speaker 7: police was videotaped, but they didn't start the tape until

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Speaker 7: after they'd alreadyn talked tucking him for a few hours,

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Speaker 7: So by the time he's on the tape, there's a

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Speaker 7: relatively for lack of a better word, canned story coming

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Speaker 7: from him, so we didn't get to see what went

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Speaker 7: into it, which really you want to see the whole

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Speaker 7: thing obviously, to see how it unfolded.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so let me go to my soapbox here for

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Speaker 1: a second. So, Crystal, one of the reasons that I'm

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Speaker 1: so happier here is because you literally represent everybody in America.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's fair to say that if

385
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Speaker 1: this could happen to you, it could happen to anyone,

386
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Speaker 1: because you just don't fit the profile of somebody who

387
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Speaker 1: would get picked up, you know. And I think there

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Speaker 1: are some people who say, well, they must have been

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Speaker 1: involved with something else, And people have this different attitudes

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Speaker 1: about exonnaies. We know that half of our exanneries had

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Speaker 1: no prior record before they were wrongfully arrested and convicted.

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Speaker 1: But the fact is that everyone should be concerned and

393
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Speaker 1: everyone should be angry as I am now at the

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Speaker 1: idea that we don't have mandatory videotaping of interrogations. It

395
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Speaker 1: is preposterous. What could possibly be the reason why we

396
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Speaker 1: wouldn't want to be able to see what goes on

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Speaker 1: inside that interrogation room and know that the person is

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Speaker 1: actually the right person. Right. None of us want murderers

399
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Speaker 1: walking the streets. But the idea that we forget as

400
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:22,199
Speaker 1: a society upon basically arrest and certainly upon incarceration, we

401
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 1: forget that you are one of us. Right, You're an American,

402
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Speaker 1: you're a person, you're a human, you're a woman. All

403
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Speaker 1: that's gone out the window. You're just somebody to be

404
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 1: chewed up and spit out by the system once you're

405
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Speaker 1: in it. And I don't get that. I don't. I don't.

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Speaker 1: I'm not okay with it, and I'm going to continue

407
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Speaker 1: to do everything I can fix it. Okay, So I'm

408
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Speaker 1: gonna get off myself bucks now. So Anyway, when you

409
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Speaker 1: were a trial and you're watching this crazy circus unfold

410
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 1: in front of you and you're unfortunately stuck in the

411
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Speaker 1: middle of it, did you think that this was still

412
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Speaker 1: going to be okay, that the jury was gonna make

413
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Speaker 1: the right decision, that you were going to go home.

414
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Speaker 3: I believed in my heart that the tchurth was gonna

415
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Speaker 3: send me for it. I was confident. I felt really

416
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Speaker 3: good about everything.

417
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Speaker 4: And I knew that I was innocent, So I felt

418
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Speaker 4: like I was going to walk out.

419
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Speaker 3: That courtroom and go home where I should have been.

420
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Speaker 3: But when they came back and.

421
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Speaker 4: After they gave the verdict it was guilty, guilty, guilty.

422
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Speaker 4: I was just an awe, Like what where did that

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Speaker 4: come from?

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Speaker 1: Can you describe that scene? Because nobody can imagine going

425
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Speaker 1: through that, like the pressure of being in that situation

426
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Speaker 1: and the idea that they're coming back in and they're

427
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Speaker 1: going to decide your fate literally with a life in

428
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Speaker 1: that situation, and so how it was a.

429
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Speaker 4: Murder charge to at that and I'm like, what what

430
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Speaker 4: are we talking about? Like a murder trial? And then

431
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Speaker 4: you're sitting there and you're waiting for all leads people

432
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Speaker 4: to decide your future.

433
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Speaker 3: What's going to happen to you? It just it's like.

434
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Speaker 4: Your heart wants to stop, like your throat and everything.

435
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:15,160
Speaker 4: Everything's just like ah, you want to scream and it's

436
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 4: just like all bottled inside of you because you don't

437
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 4: know what they're going to say. But yet on the

438
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 4: same note, on the good side of your head, you're like, oh,

439
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,920
Speaker 4: well you're fine, you're getting ready to go home, and hey,

440
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,679
Speaker 4: you're happy. But then there's another side like what's going

441
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 4: to happen? So it's like a mixed emotion thing going

442
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 4: on inside of you, just waiting to hear what they say,

443
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 4: guilty or not guilty.

444
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 1: And imagine that. So I mean and I think that

445
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 1: people again have a tendency to be able to distance

446
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: themselves when they're serving on a jewelry from that emotion

447
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 1: from that person that is sitting in front of them,

448
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: And they have a tendency to trust the system and

449
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: want to believe people in positions of authority who are

450
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 1: telling them this woman is a murderer, she's terrible, she's

451
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: all these things they're saying about you, right, And I

452
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 1: always say that people have to take an extra hard

453
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 1: look at what's being shown to them when they're on

454
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 1: that jury and realize that there's a lot of bad

455
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 1: actors in the system, there's a lot of good ones,

456
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: there's a lot of bad actors in the system, and

457
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,880
Speaker 1: that people like you get caught up in the crosshairs,

458
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 1: and that in fact, those roles could be reversed one day.

459
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 3: I highly believe that.

460
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 4: I believe that them being in the position that they're in,

461
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 4: some people have more heartfelt and are educated in that area,

462
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 4: but they also need to be mindful as well, that

463
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 4: it's not always good, The system isn't always for you,

464
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,959
Speaker 4: and there is people out there that do corruption and

465
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 4: do do bad things and harmful things.

466
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: How about this logic, right, So, if you're on a jury,

467
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 1: and especially in a small town like yours, right, and

468
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 1: you actually are witnessing and unfortunately playing an unwitting part

469
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: in a terrible deception and a prosecution, not only are

470
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: you then subject to being victimized by the actual murder

471
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,959
Speaker 1: who's still walking in the streets, but also those people,

472
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 1: those the farious, corrupt people, police and prosecutors who are

473
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 1: perpetrating this terrible act on you and in fact on

474
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: the public while I'm going to do it again because

475
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: it's convenient, they get away with it, and that could

476
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: be you, dur number seven sitting in the jury box.

477
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 1: That could be you or somebody you love right that

478
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 1: next time could get caught up just because they can't

479
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: solve the case and they need they need somebody because

480
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 1: they need to get it off their desk, and they

481
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: want to keep moving up the ranks. And we see

482
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: that people get promoted even when it's exposed that they

483
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: were responsible to these wrongflmakers. So you get found guilty

484
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 1: and the worst moment of your life, I'm assuming, right.

485
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 4: Sh Yeah, it was a shock. It was just unbelievable.

486
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,199
Speaker 1: And then you get taken away in handcuffs, yeah, and

487
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: taken to well back to jail, but then ultimately to prison.

488
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 6: Right.

489
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

490
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 4: Well they had to escort like my sister out of

491
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 4: the court room because my dad, he had to walk

492
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 4: out and calm her down, because she was with me

493
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 4: that night. And of course your sister can lie for you,

494
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 4: but there's the difference whenever you see her with your

495
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:13,479
Speaker 4: own eyes with you. So she was so determined to

496
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,360
Speaker 4: try to help me, to get me to the truth,

497
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 4: to give me freed, and when they say guilty, she

498
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 4: just like it was just a mess in that whole

499
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 4: courtroom that day.

500
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: Right, that's a crazy thing because for her, I I'm

501
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 1: just trying to put myself in her shoes, and you're

502
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: sitting there going, not only do I believe that my sister,

503
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 1: my son, whatever it is, is innocent. She knew you

504
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: were right, right, I Mean, you can't be in two

505
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: places at once.

506
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 4: That's why she was like so determined. She was like,

507
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 4: I'm not going to give up fighting for you. I'm

508
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 4: going to do everything in my willpower just to get

509
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 4: you freed. There's no reason why they should have did

510
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 4: this to you. It was just like she was mindset

511
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 4: and of course like yeah, your family, my tell.

512
00:25:58,119 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 3: Little fib or little story here or there.

513
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 4: But whenever you know with that is shadow of doubt

514
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 4: with your own personal wise, and it's a total different story.

515
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 1: What can you tell us about the experience that you

516
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: had in prison? Was every day the same? Were there

517
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: any bright spots? Was there somebody that inspired you? Just

518
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: give us a sense of what that was like.

519
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 3: It was really difficult.

520
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 4: Like whenever I first went in, there was only five

521
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 4: hundred and maybe five eighty individuals women incarcerated. Towards the

522
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 4: end there was over like twelve hundred women, so the

523
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 4: prison population increased like over half. As far as survival,

524
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 4: on an everyday basis, I would have a routine. I

525
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 4: would try to walk, jall, go to the yard a lot.

526
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 4: There was a lot of spiritual churches and services. I

527
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 4: would always go to them to try to help me

528
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 4: to get through it all. There was people that would

529
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 4: visit me through the prison society. They would come and

530
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 4: see me. They were like men and nights. They would

531
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 4: come and visit me. That helped and inspired me as well.

532
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 4: There was definitely support as far as church and stuff

533
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 4: like that, but it's just hard being surrounded by people

534
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 4: from all different nationalities cult roles.

535
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 3: You just don't know these people.

536
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 4: They're just strangers and you're just thrown in this cell

537
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 4: with these different people. But you do grow close to

538
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 4: some of the individuals and you really find out who

539
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 4: is loyal and who is really honest and genuine and

540
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 4: every person an individual would find like their sense of

541
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 4: group and they're fitting in and belonging. That's all I

542
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 4: could do, just on a daily basis, just try to

543
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 4: maintain and journal and keep myself mentally going.

544
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: Well, it's remarkable and of all my respect for having

545
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: persevered through this and actually found a way out, And

546
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: I want to get to that now. How did the

547
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania Innocence Project first hear about the case? Why did

548
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: you decide to take this particular case, and how did

549
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: you unravel this web of lies and deceit?

550
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 7: So Crystal wrote to us, that's how we get all

551
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 7: of our cases. We won't even start to look at

552
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 7: a case until a person writes us a letter. So

553
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 7: that's how she first got into our process, and Crystal's

554
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 7: letters were really compelling, you know, going back to what

555
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 7: we were talking about earlier with her being a single mom.

556
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 7: A refrain in all of her letters was I'm single

557
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 7: mom of three girls and I just want to get

558
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 7: home to them, which doesn't speak to innocence necessarily, but

559
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 7: it was really personally compelling. So she went through our

560
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 7: review process, which takes years. She was sometimes patient, sometimes

561
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 7: not with that, but we really vet the cases through

562
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 7: a multi step process.

563
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 3: We read every piece.

564
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 7: Of paper we could find, every trial transcript, We talked

565
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 7: to prior lawyers, we meet with the with the person

566
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 7: to really assure ourselves this is an innocence case. And

567
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 7: just from you know, talking, you've seen how complicated Crystal's

568
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 7: case was. So it took us a long time to

569
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 7: try to even figure out what the heck was the

570
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 7: prosecution's theory, what the heck actually may have happened, Who

571
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 7: are all these players. There's so many different strands to

572
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 7: it that it took a lot of time just to

573
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 7: figure out what a coherent narrative of the case might

574
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 7: have been. But Crystal really did a lot of the

575
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 7: work herself. She lost her first couple of state court appeals,

576
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 7: and so she went to federal court on her own

577
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 7: to ask for a new trial.

578
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 3: There after, she'd already.

579
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 7: Written to us and we were reviewing the case, and

580
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 7: the federal judge appointed a lawyer for her from the

581
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 7: Federal Defender's Office in Western Pennsylvania, and they started investigating

582
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 7: the case. They talked to Joey Stenger. He recanted his

583
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 7: testimony and said everything he said was a lie. They

584
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 7: knew we were looking at the case, and they knew

585
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 7: we'd have to go back to state court. So we

586
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 7: ended up partnering together with them, and that's when we

587
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 7: really started getting actively involved and representing Crystal because we

588
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 7: determined by that point it was an innocent's case. She

589
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 7: met all of our criteria. So we started working together

590
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 7: with the federal lawyers and developed more about what was

591
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 7: wrong with Stenger's testimony. We went back with them and

592
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 7: then again on our own to interview this dentist that

593
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 7: had testified against her, claiming she bit the victim, and

594
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 7: he said everything he'd said at trial was complete junk

595
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 7: based on advancements in the field since then. So we

596
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 7: went through every piece of evidence that they put on

597
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 7: and tried to see was there any validity to it,

598
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 7: and it turned out we could debunk every single piece

599
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 7: of it, and so we went back into state court

600
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 7: based on that task for a new trial.

601
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: And I want to just take a second here to say,

602
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,719
Speaker 1: you know, you mentioned something very important, which is the

603
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: length of time it takes for the Pennsylvanians, this project,

604
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: or anything in this project to get to these cases.

605
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: And that's why it's so important that people who are

606
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: listening out there donate money. I mean, time is great too,

607
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: but money is important because very simply if you donate

608
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: to the Pennsylvanian Project, what is the website, by the way,

609
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: projectpa dot org, Innocence projectpa dot org, because then they

610
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: can hire more lawyer lawyers or lawyers or paralegals, more

611
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: more office space for students law students to come in

612
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: and take more cases like crystals in a more expeditious

613
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: manner and get more innocent people out because unfortunately, we

614
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: know from the best social science estimates that over one

615
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: hundred thousand people in President of America are innocent, and

616
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: that's a lot. And every one of those hundred thousand

617
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: people has a story, not all as crazy as crystals,

618
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: but they all have a story, and they all have families,

619
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: and they all have hopes and dreams that are being

620
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: taken away from them. So yes, donate Innocence PROJECTPA dot org.

621
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: So now things have gone full circle. You went from

622
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: hitting the jackpot of all the causes of wrongful conviction,

623
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: not all of them, but so many of the causes

624
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,959
Speaker 1: of wrongful convictions. It went from that to having this

625
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: wonderful team of lawyers representing you and to having them

626
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: not just debunk one theory of the prosecution, but all

627
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: of them. Right, I mean, that's that's pretty unusual too.

628
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: I mean to be able to come back at the

629
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: court and go, not only was this piece of evidence wrong,

630
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: it's all wrong and we could prove it. And I

631
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: see you starting to break out in a big, warm

632
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: smile there thinking about it, because, Yeah, how incredible is

633
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: that victory?

634
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, after fighting all the years and being persistent and

635
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 4: just getting turned down States, Superior, State, Supreme and just

636
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 4: all these different nos and just fighting and just keep going.

637
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: So you go back to court feeling very confident.

638
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 7: I guess right, you know, we felt pretty confident. And

639
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 7: Crystal Bay this point had the Federal Defender's office. She

640
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 7: had every attorney in my office, which at that point

641
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 7: was just three were not very big, and also this

642
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 7: private team of lawyers from the Jones Day Law firm.

643
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 7: So we felt like we had put together the best

644
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 7: case we possibly could. So we felt confident, and we

645
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 7: were prepared to put on a three or four day

646
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 7: hearing with multiple pieces of evidence witnesses. But in Pennsylvania

647
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 7: we have one of the most restrictive post conviction laws

648
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 7: in the country. So we had put together, we thought

649
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 7: the strongest case we could. We were nervous because in Pennsylvania,

650
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 7: the judge can't even listen to your request for a

651
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 7: new trial, can't even hear those witnesses if he determines

652
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 7: that you didn't file your petition on time. So the

653
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 7: das always argue like, well, this is great, you have

654
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 7: all this new evidence. You should have found it sooner.

655
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 7: You're too late. Doesn't matter what the evidence is, and

656
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 7: we were really worried about that aspect, whether we could

657
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 7: even get over that initial hurdle and have the judge

658
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 7: listen to what we had to say. So we were

659
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 7: confident on the one hand, but we also knew the

660
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 7: legal landscape that we were facing is incredibly tough.

661
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: How do you feel about that? By the way, neither

662
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: one of you can answer this. The idea that it's

663
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: I guess it's called the sunset clause, right, The idea

664
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: that the courts can say, well, sorry but or not

665
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: even sorry, but you know what, you may be innocent,

666
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: but we don't care because you didn't get the s

667
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: you didn't get the information to us on time. I mean,

668
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,439
Speaker 1: it's like the Twilight Zone, right, I mean, how can

669
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: that be personally?

670
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 4: I think sometimes the system just wants to wrap cases up.

671
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 4: They don't care if it's right, if it's wrong, if

672
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 4: it's indifferent, if it's personal, if it's biased. Not always,

673
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 4: but a lot of times, when they get in this

674
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 4: little hump and they have no other way out, they

675
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 4: have no other choice. It's just wrapping that case and

676
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 4: that whole outcome and that situation up.

677
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: How is it that we are able as human beings

678
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: to say that we no longer care about you mean,

679
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: we don't care, right, because we have to feed the system. Right,

680
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: The system has to go on, the machine has to

681
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: go on, and we've seen it over and over again.

682
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 1: I remember Florida years ago tried to pass the sunset

683
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: clause where they were saying, And some states have this

684
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,280
Speaker 1: right where even if you had DNA evidence of your innocence,

685
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: you had to present it within like a month after

686
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 1: your try. Otherwise they weren't going to look at it. Now,

687
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 1: who the hell's going to have it a month after

688
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: their trial? But there are states that have that. In

689
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania's one of them.

690
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, in Pennsylvania, it's pretty draconian. Once your conviction is final,

691
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 7: you have a year to seek a new trial, which

692
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 7: is not that long, especially if witnesses, you know, they

693
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 7: just testified against you not that long before. Are they

694
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 7: really going to be prepared to tell the truth now?

695
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,919
Speaker 7: After that year, if you file that new trial motion

696
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,720
Speaker 7: and you lose, you're presumptively barred from ever seeking relief again,

697
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 7: with a few exceptions. So if you find new evidence

698
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 7: of innocence, like in Crystal's case, we had a witness recantation,

699
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 7: we had this fite mark expert disavowing its testimony, et cetera,

700
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 7: you only have two months. You have sixty days to

701
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 7: go back to court, and even if you get in

702
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 7: within the sixty days, that doesn't mean the judge is

703
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 7: going to find that your petition was filed on time.

704
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 7: It means that he's going to look at Okay, while

705
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 7: you got in with sixty days, but could you have

706
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 7: found that evidence even earlier sixty days from what sixty

707
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 7: days from? Basically when you get in, inkling that the

708
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 7: person might be willing to recant or you have a

709
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 7: new expert opinion, whatever new evidence is. So it's a

710
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 7: really short period of time, particularly if you don't have

711
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 7: a lawyer. But it also isn't the end of the game.

712
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 7: Because you get in within sixty days, that's just the

713
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 7: start of the process. The judge then has to see

714
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 7: whether that literally was the first time you could have

715
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 7: brought this evidence, or if you could have found it

716
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 7: sooner somehow, And the das will always say, well, they

717
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 7: could have talked to this person a year ago, six

718
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 7: months ago, whatever it is. In my job, this is

719
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 7: what makes me bang my head against the desk the most.

720
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 3: Are you talking about the PCR?

721
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 7: A PCR okay, And it's what we call a jurisdictional requirement.

722
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 7: So if you don't meet these things, the judge, even

723
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 7: if he or she wanted to, has no authority to

724
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 7: hear the actual evidence.

725
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: It's so maddening. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

726
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: So then the day comes you're back in court. At

727
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: this point, you'd been through everything. How do you resign

728
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: yourself like oh, they're just going to screw me again,

729
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: or like what was your before before?

730
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 4: We have been through so much like my good days,

731
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 4: my good times. I'd done fired her one time and

732
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 4: then rehired her the same day. But it was just

733
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 4: all from anger, frustration, perseverance, just everything bottled up in me.

734
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 4: I mean, it wasn't her personally, it was the fact

735
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 4: about the system, what happened to me and what's been done,

736
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 4: And here she is trying to assist and help me,

737
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 4: but yet I'm firing her and hiring her back in

738
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 4: the same day.

739
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's been real interesting.

740
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 4: I mean, I was just so grateful though here comes

741
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 4: my whole team and I'm soon to get victory. I

742
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 4: was happy, but on the same note, I was like, oh,

743
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 4: they're not.

744
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 3: Going to help me. It's going to be the same stuff.

745
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 4: Over crap, I'm saying in my mind over and over

746
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 4: because I wasn't getting nowhere, it seemed like. But then

747
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 4: all these doors started opening so fast. It was just

748
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 4: like one court date. Here we go, Oh, another court

749
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 4: date scheduled.

750
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 1: You know.

751
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 4: Here, I'm going back to the county. Here they're coming

752
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 4: to see me every day. I'm getting visits and getting

753
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 4: out of my room and out of my cell, and

754
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,439
Speaker 4: I'm all excited because I know it's getting closer. Here

755
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,399
Speaker 4: comes the big day. So when the big day came

756
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 4: and they said we're releasing her. October first, twenty fifteen

757
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 4: was the very special day. Very next day, they just

758
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 4: opened the doors and just released me right to the street.

759
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 4: Here it is freezing outside in the middle of rain,

760
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 4: and you know, we have jackets and different possessions and

761
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 4: properties and things like that. After being there for what

762
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 4: ten twelve years, so you accumulate a lot of belongings

763
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 4: and things being in there. And it was just unbelievable.

764
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 4: Here I am just being released to the streets. I

765
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 4: didn't even get to go back to my home prison

766
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 4: to collect what a little bit of belongings I had.

767
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 4: So I was just released right from the county Joel,

768
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 4: and you know, I had to get my self shipped

769
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 4: to me.

770
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 3: So it was just shock.

771
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 4: I was just in all with everything and how they

772
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 4: went about doing the results of everything. I mean, totally

773
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 4: unbelievable twelve years and here you just throw somebody out

774
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 4: on the street and don't give them their a little

775
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 4: bit of belongings and possessions and let them have transportation

776
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 4: and have everything in order. They could care less, it

777
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 4: didn't matter to them.

778
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 1: So it is full circle because you went into the

779
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: first trial thinking that justice was going to be done

780
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,280
Speaker 1: and it wasn't. And then you went into the second

781
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: trial thinking that justice wasn't going to be done, and

782
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: it was. And then all of a sudden, here you

783
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 1: are like a baby being born right out back into

784
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 1: the world, like you said, like what the hell do

785
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: I do now? Type of thing. Right, But the good

786
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: news is you're free. At that point, you're exonerated, formally exonerated.

787
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 4: We didn't get I got exonerated October one, twenty fifteen,

788
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 4: was my hearing. That's whenever I got freed. They put

789
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 4: a GPS monitor and was still dangle with me for

790
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 4: nine months. So from October to June twenty seventh, twenty sixteen,

791
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 4: last year, I had a bracelet one that was my

792
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 4: fully exoneration day. When they were they took that bracelet

793
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 4: off and released me.

794
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 7: From that point, yeah, So in Pennsylvania, when somebody's innocent,

795
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 7: you can't you know, some states you can ask for

796
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 7: like a certificate of innocence, and that leads to an exoneration.

797
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 7: All we can get is a new trial. So in

798
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 7: October of twenty fifteen, we were lucky enough to be

799
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 7: able to get Crystal the new trial. But all that

800
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 7: that meant was that the d could appeal if they

801
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 7: wanted to, They could retry her if they wanted to. Luckily,

802
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 7: they didn't appeal, but they did say they were going

803
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 7: to proceed a trial. So she was out on bail

804
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 7: as if she'd never been convicted, and it was back

805
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 7: as if she'd been before the first trial, and she

806
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 7: was on this electronic monitoring, and the judge said a

807
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 7: really aggressive trial schedule. We got a pre trial order

808
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 7: saying you're going to trial in December or January, and

809
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 7: so we hit the ground running and did pre trial

810
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,280
Speaker 7: work for Crystal. In the course of that, more information

811
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 7: about incentivized witnesses came out that we hadn't been able

812
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 7: to get during the post conviction process, and we filed

813
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 7: motions to have all the charges dismissed with prejudice, meaning

814
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 7: they could never charge her again, and ultimately, after a

815
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 7: bunch of hearings on that, that was finally granted in

816
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 7: June of twenty sixteen. So it wasn't over with the release.

817
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 7: That took another good nine months of lawyering and of

818
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 7: Crystal hanging in there being on this electronic monitor before

819
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 7: she could be truly free.

820
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that drives me crazy too.

821
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 1: What people don't understand is that the indictment, the original indictment,

822
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 1: still stands, even though the conviction has been overturned. The

823
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: basically what the court saying is that your trial was wrong,

824
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 1: the result was wrong, but the original indictmentsill stands and

825
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: they can still try you. We talked about that moment

826
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: when you were convicted something you didn't do, in the

827
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: horror and shock of that with your sister and your

828
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: dad and the whole terrible scene in the courtroom. What

829
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: was a moment like when you were exonerated?

830
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 4: Oh so wonderful, Oh man, happy tears again. I always

831
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 4: call them a moment because I always.

832
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 3: Cry, you know, emost one tear eye just thinking of it.

833
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 4: It's just like the victory after like persevering and fighting

834
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 4: and just everything for so long and so hard, and

835
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 4: you know, want to give up hope and you know,

836
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 4: throw the toweling.

837
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 3: You just got to keep going. And then it's just.

838
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 4: Like all that weight is finally off you. You're just like,

839
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 4: oh wow, you're in awe. It's like awe moment. I

840
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 4: call it a awe moment, but it's just relief, just

841
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 4: like ten thousand things off your chest, your heart, your mind.

842
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 3: You'll know how to start, where to begin, but you know.

843
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 4: You're ready and you're doing something somehow, some way.

844
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 3: So it's just amazing. It's amazing.

845
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 4: Like I'm so grateful and thankful just small things that

846
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 4: people take maybe for granted on a daily bisis. I

847
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 4: just I'm just grateful and thank god just to be

848
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 4: out because I could have still been in there, and

849
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 4: you know, they might have tried to put me through

850
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 4: a trial again and gave me a life sentence and say,

851
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 4: oh death row sentence.

852
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 3: Who's to say, you never know?

853
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 4: With all this being said, you know, I'm just so

854
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,439
Speaker 4: happy and grateful that all this is just now it's

855
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 4: behind me and I can move forward to my future

856
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 4: and what lies ahead. And I'm just grateful to my

857
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 4: team and all the ones that did all the work

858
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 4: and put up with all my naughtiness and my good

859
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 4: days and bad days and moments and times, and you know,

860
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 4: and here I am today and I'm so grateful to

861
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 4: meet you and be here and spend this time with you.

862
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 3: Is a blessing. Well, I mean, I'm.

863
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: Honored people who listen to the show. No, I'm really

864
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: at a loss for words, but this is one of

865
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: those moments. I do know that when we're done talking

866
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna give you a big hug. So the

867
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: and when you meet Chris, it's the first thing you think,

868
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: is this, I want to give this person a hug

869
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: If you don't know so anyway, But you know, I

870
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: think you may have already done this. But at the

871
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 1: end of each episode, we have a tradition here at

872
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction where I like to ask if there's any

873
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: last words you'd like to share. I feel like you

874
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: may have already just done that. So in this case,

875
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: we'll do it differently, and we will turn it over

876
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 1: to your distinguished attorney Neil m and see if there's

877
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,720
Speaker 1: anything Is there anything you'd like to leave with the audience,

878
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: or any final thoughts.

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00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 4: That you have, Oh, I'm just grateful that you have

880
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 4: shows like this to get this in the public eye,

881
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 4: to help people to be more aware of their surroundings

882
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 4: and what occurs out there in the world in our society,

883
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 4: to make change and make a difference for good and better.

884
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 7: Well said, I'm just so happy that you invited us

885
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 7: here and that it gives Crystal a chance to give

886
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,879
Speaker 7: voice to her story and also the other women anxigneries.

887
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 7: You know, there's a lot more men in prison. We've

888
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 7: only had two female clients in our office, but I

889
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 7: think the challenges are really different, and it's a story

890
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 7: that's not told as much as it needs to. Be

891
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 7: so grateful that we have the opportunity to be here

892
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 7: and have Crystal give kind of the women's perspective on

893
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 7: this problem and a mom's perspective as well well.

894
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: This has been an extraordinary experience talking to both of

895
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: you and learning thank you from you, and you are

896
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: a perfect example of why those of us in this

897
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: innocence movement are so passionately devoted to doing what we do.

898
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: Now you're home and with your children and your grandchildren

899
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: and able to get on with your life, which is great.

900
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: I want to thank both of you, Crystal and Neilam

901
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: for joining us and tracking all the way here from Pennsylvania. Yes,

902
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: thank you, and thank you everyone for listening. This has

903
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: been a very special episode of Wrongful Conviction.

904
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 3: Than thank you.

905
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

906
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud

907
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 1: donor to the Nisis project and I really hope you'll

908
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,320
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

909
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innison's project dot

910
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

911
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

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00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

913
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

914
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:25,760
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

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00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,240
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

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Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one