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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.

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Speaker 2: Our colleague Noel is on an adventure, but will be

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Speaker 2: back very soon.

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Speaker 3: They call me Bed. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Paul, mission controlled decads. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 2: You are here.

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Speaker 3: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 3: This is thinking about this earlier, Matt. This is an

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Speaker 3: episode about more than one conspiracy. In fact, I would

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Speaker 3: argue we could call this a story of conflicting dual conspiracies,

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Speaker 3: both true, both set against one another in a fundamental

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Speaker 3: shadow war. And we were going to record this episode earlier.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad we took some time on it because key

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Speaker 3: to this tale is larger than life, immensely controversial figure

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Speaker 3: to some folks. He's a hero to others, and we'll

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Speaker 3: get to those others. In specific, he is a bungler

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Speaker 3: who nearly risked the safety of America entire Now, question,

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Speaker 3: had you heard of this guy before we started researching.

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Speaker 2: Him only from film school in this movie that came

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Speaker 2: out in nineteen thirty nine that we're going to talk about.

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Speaker 2: That's the only reason I knew anything about this story.

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Speaker 2: It is a weird time in US history often, I think,

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Speaker 2: at least in my personal experience, when we think about

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Speaker 2: the United States and spying, there's a hyper focus on

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Speaker 2: the United States versus the Soviet Union. This is a

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Speaker 2: time before the Cold War spying days and games. It's

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Speaker 2: interesting to take your mind to the nineteen twenties and

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Speaker 2: thinking about spying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's also the interwar period is something that doesn't

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Speaker 3: get a ton of examination in a lot of American

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Speaker 3: public schools. And as we'll see, there's a reason you

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Speaker 3: could argue some of this history is hidden. Tonight's episode

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Speaker 3: is the story of a guy. We're gonna call it

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Speaker 3: Leon G. Truro. We'll call him a Nazi hunter because

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Speaker 3: he was. But maybe before we begin we make a

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Speaker 3: little note about pronunciation, because it's sort of all over

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Speaker 3: the place with his last name.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you watch the trailer for the movie we're

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Speaker 2: going to be talking about in a moment, well, I

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Speaker 2: guess should we just say what the movie is. It's

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Speaker 2: titled Confessions of a Nazi Spy. It was released in

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Speaker 2: May nineteen thirty nine. And in that movie they say

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Speaker 2: this person's name, and they say Leon George ureau Turo. Oh.

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Speaker 2: But then if you look online at other people who

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Speaker 2: were talking about this person, you're often going to here.

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Speaker 2: At least I heard Teru. I think it was maybe

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Speaker 2: a Scottish gentleman who said it that way.

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Speaker 3: And then yeah, and then we can't discount the presence

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Speaker 3: of the Transatlantic accent. A lot of historians that I've

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Speaker 3: been reading or hearing I have said terurou. The spelling

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Speaker 3: is t u r r ou. We are going to

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Speaker 3: possibly slide in and out of different pronunciations. But be assured,

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Speaker 3: fellow conspiracy realist, we're talking about the same guy to

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Speaker 3: some a hero again to others, A real Paul beat

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Speaker 3: me here and I hate the curse so early in

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Speaker 3: the show. But a real's.

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Speaker 2: Super intense liar about all things.

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Speaker 3: Right, So let's let's dive into Leon. And to tell

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Speaker 3: the story of Leon, we have to learn the story

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Speaker 3: of the Nazis. Here are the facts, all right. Luckily,

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Speaker 3: today in the modern US, for most people, for the

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Speaker 3: vast majority of people in the West as well. Calling

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Speaker 3: someone a Nazi is a serious insult. It's it's such

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Speaker 3: a it's so universally identified as a bad thing that

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Speaker 3: it's a cliche. The Internet has rules about it too, right,

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Speaker 3: there's that tendency. There's this argument that at some point

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Speaker 3: in political discourse someone will call someone else inevitably a Nazi.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the worst thing you can call somebody, because

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Speaker 2: they are history's enemies, right, the enemy number one of

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Speaker 2: history is the Nazis. But it really does go way

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Speaker 2: way way back before the Nazi Party is ever established.

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Speaker 2: You can you can trace it all the way back

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Speaker 2: to eighteen forty one to a guy named Friedrich list As,

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Speaker 2: a dude who just talked about expansionism basically and economic control,

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Speaker 2: like the Germany basically should have a lot more of

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Speaker 2: both of those things, blood and soil mm hmm. And

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Speaker 2: go through criminal biology with Franz von Liszt and I mean,

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Speaker 2: just you can keep you can go way back with

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Speaker 2: basically the ideologies that formed into this thing called the

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Speaker 2: German Workers Party or DAP.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the German Workers Party can be considered the demo

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Speaker 3: mixtape of what we call the Nazi Party today and

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Speaker 3: the Nazi Party today is most closely associated with Germany

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Speaker 3: in World War Two for obvious and horrific reasons. But

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Speaker 3: as you said, Matt, the roots of the party are

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Speaker 3: much much older. You could look at the Nazi Party

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Speaker 3: as understood today as more of a distillation of some

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Speaker 3: ideology that was already well established in that part of

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Speaker 3: the world for some time. Like at length, what we

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Speaker 3: call the Nazi Party, or the demo tape of it was,

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Speaker 3: as you said, the German Workers Party co founded by

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Speaker 3: a locksmith who's a guy named Anton Drexler co founded

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Speaker 3: this with three or four other guys on January fifth,

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Speaker 3: nineteen nineteen. So this is just after the armistice that

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Speaker 3: ended the First World War. Germany is in a very

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Speaker 3: bad way as a result of the agreements that ended

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Speaker 3: the war, and Drexler is what we will call a

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Speaker 3: far right figure at this point, he's kind of no

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Speaker 3: offense to us. In his early days, he's kind of

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Speaker 3: podcaster level, and so he's holding these local media the

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Speaker 3: salons you will call them in Europe, and he has

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Speaker 3: people over to talk about ideas. They're all people who

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Speaker 3: are kind of echoe chamber. He's not inviting dissenting views

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Speaker 3: into this mix enters a guy named Adolf Hitler. It's

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Speaker 3: on September twelfth, nineteen nineteen, and Adolf Hitler is there

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Speaker 3: ostensibly as just an interested civilian to learn more from

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Speaker 3: a self taught economist named Gottfried Fader, and Gottfried Fader's

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Speaker 3: kind of a pill. The subject of his lecture is

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Speaker 3: breaking the slavery of financial interest, which is kind of

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Speaker 3: a dog whistle for a lot of anti Jewish sentiment. However,

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Speaker 3: Hitler is already participating in a conspiracy at this point.

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Speaker 3: He is there not really as a civilian, that's his cover. Instead,

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Speaker 3: he has been assigned by the German Art Army to

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Speaker 3: monitor potential political agitators, which I think is funny as

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Speaker 3: we as we see how things go on. Anyway, Hitler

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Speaker 3: does something you probably shouldn't do in his position with

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Speaker 3: the army at that time. He sticks out well, yeah.

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Speaker 2: He gives a big old public speech in October of

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Speaker 2: nineteen nineteen, and a pre arranged public speaking engagement, let's say,

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Speaker 2: immediately as a member of the DAP, just like right

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Speaker 2: after going to the first one.

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Speaker 3: Right, yeah, And in that first meeting, the October speech,

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Speaker 3: you're mentioning comes from this September twelfth meeting, because in

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Speaker 3: there he starts arguing loudly with a professor in the

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Speaker 3: crowd who is raising objections to some of the economic

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Speaker 3: concepts of feder and Hitler super impresses the DAP audience

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Speaker 3: because he's passionate, he's vehement, he's got this electric energy,

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Speaker 3: and he impresses everybody so much that the guy we

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Speaker 3: mentioned earlier, Anton Drexler, comes to Hitler and says, Hey,

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Speaker 3: I dig your vibe. I wrote this pamphlet it's called

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Speaker 3: My Political Awakening. I think you should join up with us.

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Speaker 3: You know, thanks for coming to the meeting. You should

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Speaker 3: come to more, and you should talk about the things

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Speaker 3: that you mentioned in this meeting. Hitler at this point

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Speaker 3: feels he has found kindred spirits and the rest, as

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Speaker 3: they say, is history. In this case, terrible, terrible history.

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Speaker 2: Just for a little more historical context here, we have

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Speaker 2: to mention what happened to the Weimar Republic's economy and

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Speaker 2: post a World War One. Yeah, yeah, post World War One,

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Speaker 2: post revolution, post everything going on in Germany. In nineteen

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Speaker 2: twenty two, hyperil inflation hit. It's really hard, and then

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Speaker 2: as it goes in towards nineteen. In nineteen twenty three,

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Speaker 2: they had hyperinflation. And just to really understand that we're.

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Speaker 3: Talking of the wheelbarrow story, maybe.

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Speaker 2: Well it's not even the story. Just to give the numbers,

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Speaker 2: Imagine that your US dollar come compared to what's another

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Speaker 2: curzy a pound British pound. Imagine that six hundred dollars

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Speaker 2: equals one pound, and then imagine within months that becomes

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Speaker 2: two thousand US dollars equal one pound, then ten thousand,

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Speaker 2: then forty thousand, then one hundred and fifty thousand, then

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Speaker 2: three point five million, then ten million, then sixty million

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Speaker 2: US dollars equals one pound. Imagine that internal existential political

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Speaker 2: crisis that that would cause, right within a within a country,

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Speaker 2: within an individual, within systems, within groups and parties. That

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Speaker 2: is the kind of crisis that it creates real intense

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Speaker 2: change because something's got to change right right. And you

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Speaker 2: combine that with in nineteen thirty one, so like that's

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Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty two to twenty three, combine that in

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirty one, you've got five point six million unemployed

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Speaker 2: people that should be working in Germany. And you put

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Speaker 2: those things together and you can just really see where

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Speaker 2: if there's a strong enough order that has some ideology

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Speaker 2: backing the words that they're saying, you can create a

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Speaker 2: movement pretty easily because you just need some way out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, is it okay if I tell the Wilbarrow story. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: my favorite examples. So this is a a it is

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Speaker 3: a bit embellished. But the way that one of the

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Speaker 3: best ways to understand this from a human level is

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Speaker 3: that people at this time hyperinflation is a thing that

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Speaker 3: still happens in the modern age. Look at Zimbabwe, look

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Speaker 3: at Venezuela when it hits Germany. Due to again the

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Speaker 3: conclusion and the agreements of World War One, people would

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Speaker 3: end up having to take wheelbarrows of their local currency

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Speaker 3: to a place, and when they went to a store,

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Speaker 3: they would try to purchase things as early as possible

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Speaker 3: because by the conclusion of that business day the money

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Speaker 3: would literally be worthless. So, you know, you hear horror

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Speaker 3: stories about the Great Depression in the United States and

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Speaker 3: runs on banks. There were runs on bakeries, there were

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Speaker 3: runs on cobblers, there were runs on anyone doing business.

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Speaker 3: People were trying to move the currency. Was a very

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Speaker 3: desperate time and desperation has ever been fertile soil for fascism.

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Speaker 3: So this, and I appreciate you mentioning this, This is

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Speaker 3: context in which these horrific things can occur. You know.

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Speaker 3: There is also the I wouldn't say revision is his,

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Speaker 3: but there's a valid alternative history observation here which is

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Speaker 3: quite common in academia, that says, if it weren't specifically

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Speaker 3: an Adolph, it would have been someone else because the

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Speaker 3: public was so ready for someone to say there is

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Speaker 3: a better way. Also in a shameless plog, please check

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Speaker 3: out Let's Start a coup. The Smedley Butler story is

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Speaker 3: very similar to that, because the US comes a lot

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Speaker 3: closer to fascism than any of us or any textbook

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Speaker 3: editors would like you to think.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and if we're to know, to believe all of

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Speaker 2: the information from Leon G. Tourou, then that fascism was

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Speaker 2: moving throughout the United States even in this time in

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen twenties.

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Speaker 3: And we've explored Nazi conspiracies at length in stuff they

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Speaker 3: don't want you to know. Thankfully, most folks today are

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Speaker 3: aware of the atrocities wrought by Nazi nax's powers and

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Speaker 3: to be fair also aware of other horrors committed by allies, right,

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Speaker 3: like the invasion of Russian forces and of course the

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Speaker 3: deployment of nuclear weaponry on the US part. However, there

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Speaker 3: is a lot of hidden history out there, still conspiracies

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Speaker 3: that aren't as well known even as we record tonight

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four. Enter Leon George Tourou original name

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Speaker 3: Leon George Tuovoski born September fourteenth, eighteen ninety five in Cobram, Poland,

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Speaker 3: which was then part of the Russian Empire. But his

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Speaker 3: parents weren't Russian, right, they were French and Polish.

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Speaker 2: Oh sure, Yeah. His father died before he was even born,

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Speaker 2: and his mother then passed away early in his life,

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Speaker 2: so he was well at least. Again, it's tough, so

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Speaker 2: is this his official biography, because the guy told so

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Speaker 2: many stories about his origins. There were there are all

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Speaker 2: of these. There are all these tales that he would tell,

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Speaker 2: and the first one that you would hear from him

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Speaker 2: often was I'm an orphan, right, But I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It's tough with this guy because I've read other stories

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Speaker 2: where maybe he wasn't actually an orphan, and he did

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Speaker 2: have family early on that we're not dead. But according

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Speaker 2: to let's say, the official story, his dad died a

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Speaker 2: story from the FBI. Yeah, even from the FBI. But

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Speaker 2: he was telling everybody stories, even the FBI. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: don't know. It's a little weird, but his according to

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Speaker 2: the official story, his dad died six months before his

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Speaker 2: birth and his mother passed away early in his life. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And with with those caveats, which are nice foreshadowing, we'll

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Speaker 3: say that again. The official accepted biography after this guy's

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Speaker 3: death is that, because spoiler he's dead, is that he

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Speaker 3: was adopted by a wealthy tradesman or merchants, basically a

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Speaker 3: traveling guy who's doing well for himself, and as a result,

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Speaker 3: young Leon spent most of his own childhood moving through

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Speaker 3: different countries, and when he reaches the age of eighteen,

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Speaker 3: he relocates to the United States and he gets a

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Speaker 3: job as a translator for the New York Times because

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Speaker 3: he has a command of multiple languages. Again with a

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Speaker 3: lot of caveats. Tureau serves in the French Army from

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Speaker 3: nineteen sixteen to nineteen twenty. He fights on the Eastern Front.

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Speaker 3: He is engaged with German forces at some point and

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Speaker 3: he does take an injury, we don't know the extent

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Speaker 3: of the injury, and we do.

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Speaker 2: Get in there. It's weird though, because their story. I

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Speaker 2: just I don't want to poke holes in any of this. Man.

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Speaker 2: It's just weird to know that he also told stories

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Speaker 2: that he fought in a different area during the war,

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Speaker 2: and that injury that we're talking about, that's a bit mysterious,

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Speaker 2: was like it was refuted by several other people, like, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's not actually what the injury was from. And then

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Speaker 2: he told other people a story about getting injured in

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Speaker 2: a different way.

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Speaker 3: So the one thing we do know for sure is

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Speaker 3: that he was hired by the FBI after an interview

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Speaker 3: with j Edgar Hoover, and according again to most of

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Speaker 3: the official sources, he got the co sign to be

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Speaker 3: hired despite lacking the normal qualifications that would typically be

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Speaker 3: required of most prospective FBI agents. You know what I mean,

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Speaker 3: like college in addition to military service or things like that. Right,

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Speaker 3: they have a checklist of stuff, their version of a

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Speaker 3: background check. Right, And he works for the Bureau for

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Speaker 3: about ten years. Matt, do you want to talk about

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Speaker 3: the various claims of things he was involved in over

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Speaker 3: that rough decade.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm not really sure about that stuff. I just

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Speaker 2: want to point out that I think this guy walking

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Speaker 2: into JEdgar Hoover's office and having a conversation, I do

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Speaker 2: think in there somewhere is the telling of Terureu to Hoover. Hey,

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Speaker 2: I am a shadow. Nobody knows the actual facts about

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Speaker 2: my life. Nobody knows who I am. Nobody knows anything

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Speaker 2: about me. I can do things basically for you and

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Speaker 2: for the Bureau that other people can't because I'm literally

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Speaker 2: a shadow.

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Speaker 3: And tabula ross a blank slate. Yeah, and I mean

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Speaker 3: we have to remember this is before the CIA is,

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Speaker 3: So maybe that's why I went to the FBI instead.

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Speaker 3: We know that he received an assignment, and well, like

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Speaker 3: you can read about involvement with pretty Roy Floyd or Lindberg,

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Speaker 3: baby kidnapping, investigation of the Kansas City Union Station, murders,

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Speaker 3: and investigations into crashes and things like that. That's what

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Speaker 3: occurred in this sort of montage period of that decade.

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Speaker 3: But tonight's episode is not about that. Tonight's episode is

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Speaker 3: about the assignment that would change his life and perhaps

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Speaker 3: alter the course or actually provably in my opinion, at

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Speaker 3: least alter the course of US history. Far before World

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Speaker 3: War II, in the interwar period, the American forces, the

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Speaker 3: American public, and government alike were contemplating a blanket neutrality policy,

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Speaker 3: what we'll call isolationism. And during that time, the Nazi

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Speaker 3: Party was conspiring to infiltrate US soil, to capture the

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Speaker 3: heart's minds and ultimately, hopefully the military of the American public,

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Speaker 3: and so agent Tourou was given an enormous, dangerous task.

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Speaker 3: Everyone feared a new war was on the way, was

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Speaker 3: all over the press. But his bosses and the FBI

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Speaker 3: told him terrible secret. Leon They said, the Nazis are

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Speaker 3: already here. Here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 2: Matt.

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Speaker 3: I really appreciate what you pointed out about some of

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Speaker 3: the missing context here, because a lot of modern Americans,

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Speaker 3: and again textbooks don't like to admit this, but eugenics

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Speaker 3: and Nazi like ideology and actual Nazi sympathizers existed in

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Speaker 3: the US since the nineteen twenties, and when Hitler rose

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Speaker 3: to power officially in nineteen thirty three, those groups just

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Speaker 3: got larger, right, They just sort of gained momentum domino

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Speaker 3: or snowball effect style.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, back in eighteen fifty six when an essay on

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Speaker 2: the inequity of the races was written. It wasn't just

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Speaker 2: you know, in German and people in Germany reading that.

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Speaker 2: There were Americans reading that book. There were people all

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Speaker 2: of the planet reading that book and probably having thoughts

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Speaker 2: altered and changed. And some of the viral thinking is

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Speaker 2: seeping in all across the planet. And you know, concepts

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Speaker 2: of fighting for again the working people, that's an old

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Speaker 2: concept and it has really nothing to do with fascism.

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Speaker 2: It really is like a puzzle getting put together with

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Speaker 2: very specific pieces, right, that form this thing that becomes Nazism.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, again, it's Nazism is combining a lot of pre

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Speaker 3: existing prejudices, right, and one of the there are a

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Speaker 3: couple of factors that we need to outline here for

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Speaker 3: that context. Yes, the racism is not just based in Germany, obviously,

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Speaker 3: it's not just based in the US. Obviously. It hacks

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Speaker 3: a universal psychological desire, which is one I think I'm great?

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Speaker 3: B Why am I not as great as I feel like?

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Speaker 2: Right? See?

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Speaker 3: What can tell me that I am somehow inherently better

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Speaker 3: than other people? And this is something that you see

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Speaker 3: leveraged all the time by bad faith actors. The country,

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Speaker 3: the US had and has a large German American population,

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Speaker 3: and at this time a lot of people are you know,

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Speaker 3: first or second generation German Americans, and they still have

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Speaker 3: family abroad, so they are not necessarily green with the

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Speaker 3: current political powers of a Germany. But they're also saying, hey,

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Speaker 3: don't dunk on these folks too hard, because I'm from there,

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Speaker 3: or I know those folks, I'm related to them, and

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00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 3: the US government in theory very much in theory protects

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Speaker 3: free speech. Groups like the German American Bund b U

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Speaker 3: and d RISE they openly support specific Nazi ideology along

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Speaker 3: with you know, the symbols and the flags and the marching.

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Speaker 3: And to be clear, a lot of these groups, especially

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Speaker 3: the more militant ones, were similar to what we might

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Speaker 3: call the QAnon movement of today, right minus the online presence.

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Speaker 3: QAnon's largely started as nonline thing, similar to a tea

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Speaker 3: party or whatever kind of extremist ideology you want to

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Speaker 3: put in the overall German American community. At least again,

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Speaker 3: to be sure, according to the historians I read, they

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Speaker 3: didn't really vibe with this group. They were like, hey,

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Speaker 3: we moved you know, we just want a good economy,

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Speaker 3: We want our kids to have a better opportunity at life.

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Speaker 3: And the Nazi American groups, for the most part, they

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Speaker 3: add little actual connection to the Nazi Party in Germany

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Speaker 3: what our pal laur and Vocobama would call the actual

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Speaker 3: facts German Nazis. But still even with that, they were fanboys.

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Speaker 3: They wanted to bend American politics closer to Nazi ideals,

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Speaker 3: particularly fascism and anti semitism. And a lot of Americans,

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Speaker 3: German American or not, we're kind of squigged out by

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Speaker 3: this because they thought, what if there might be a

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Speaker 3: German fifth column? And this was a fear that just

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Speaker 3: translated from earlier fears about communism, right, a secret cabal

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Speaker 3: of communists that were out to take over the hearts

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Speaker 3: and minds of America. Even though, to be one hundred

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Speaker 3: percent transparent, none of the Nazi American groups were down

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Speaker 3: with communism. It was a big part of their speeches,

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Speaker 3: like the best way to be anti communists. That's how

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Speaker 3: they started, because you know, they try to normalize things.

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Speaker 3: They're like, hey, you hate communists, right, America? And they say, yeah,

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Speaker 3: we hate communists And they say, well, we hate them too,

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Speaker 3: And the best way to fight communism is Nazi stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, fascism strong strong people that come through and just

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Speaker 2: tell you what is and what's good and what's bad exactly.

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Speaker 3: And you know this is not the dunk on anybody's

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Speaker 3: personal perspective or experience. It's an understandable thing if we

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Speaker 3: exercise empathy. Plus, the US is a country where people

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Speaker 3: are then, as now in theory, legally allowed to shoot

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Speaker 3: their mouths off about all sorts of wacka do ideas, right,

377
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Speaker 3: I personally like seeing some crazy guy with a megaphone

378
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Speaker 3: on a street corner. The concept is, so long as

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Speaker 3: you're not calling for violence nor harming people, you're theoretically

380
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 3: good to go, as long as they're just homegrown dissonance

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Speaker 3: and propagandists. But the question is, what if there were

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Speaker 3: actual wolves operating amid the sympathizer sheep. In nineteen thirty eight,

383
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 3: Hoover and the FBI, their fears were confirmed. This is

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Speaker 3: where we discover the first conspiracy, which is again adapted

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00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 3: into a movie that you can easily view on either

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00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 3: Archive dot Org or Amazon Today or Turner Classic Movies

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Speaker 3: or TCO.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the information contained in that movie is based

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Speaker 2: on a screenplay which is based on some articles that Touro.

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Speaker 3: Was based on, a book based on the articles.

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Speaker 2: Yes, based on a well, yes, well there. According to TCM,

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Speaker 2: the screenplay itself is based on the articles themselves, rather

393
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Speaker 2: than even the book. So it was it was articles

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Speaker 2: that were told by Torow to this guy named David G. Whittles,

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Speaker 2: who was working for the New York Post in nineteen

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Speaker 2: thirty eight, in nineteen thirty nine. So it's that, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is a story that Leon told or mister Trureau

398
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 2: told to somebody else and then it got turned into

399
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 2: the story, right. I think that's just important to remember

400
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 2: because it's I don't know, it's it's probably a lot

401
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 2: of it is probably correct, but it is one person's viewpoint,

402
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: and this person tends to, at least according to a

403
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 2: lot of people that knew him, didn't always say the truth.

404
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 2: So it's like, okay, so here is, as you said,

405
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: how this whole thing begins. It's February nineteen thirty eight.

406
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 2: The police in New York City arrest this guy. His

407
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 2: names Quinta Gustav Maria rumrick On behalf of the Army

408
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 2: and the State Department they arrest this guy because the

409
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 2: Army in the State Department are like, this guy's bad.

410
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: The State Department received a tip from British intelligence claiming

411
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 2: that this person was impersonating the Secretary of State in

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Speaker 2: order to obtain thirty five blank US passport.

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Speaker 3: Why what an interesting question. Let's bring him in and

414
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 3: ask he's impersonating the Secretary at the State of at

415
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 3: the time is a guy named Cordel Hole, and Cordell

416
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 3: Hole obviously no longer the Secretary of State. However, it

417
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 3: sounds crazy ambitious right now for anybody who's tried to

418
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 3: get a passport with their own real identity in the

419
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 3: modern day. Rumbrick knew enough about the processes and mechanisms

420
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 3: of the US government to do some social engineering or

421
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 3: attempt it. However, as we'll see, Rumrick had an ego disease.

422
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 3: He was maybe a little bit well, let's say it

423
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 3: this way. He's a crafty character, he's ambitious, he's more

424
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 3: than a little taken with himself. He's a naturalized citizen.

425
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 3: He was a US Army sergeant till he deserted, and

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Speaker 3: he's a textbook example. I would just argue of a

427
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 3: guy who fancied himself destined for greater things, As any

428
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 3: investigator can tell you, small people with big egos or

429
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 3: a gift when it comes to busting a crime ring.

430
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 3: And so you can see this in the articles and

431
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 3: the book and the film which we'll talk about all

432
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 3: three of those towards the end where we get to

433
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 3: the Leon question here. But in all of those depictions

434
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 3: or descriptions or narratives, when common throat we see is

435
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 3: that Rumrick or the characters based on Rumrick are easily

436
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 3: manipulated by flattery. So the interrogators are saying, oh, wow,

437
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 3: you're a mastermind, you know. I mean, look, I interview

438
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 3: a lot of criminals, but you're different, So surely you'll

439
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 3: have a better lie than that or something like this.

440
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 3: And so Raman ultimately agrees to confess this part is true.

441
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 3: This is not the smoking mirrors nor the adaptations. He says, well,

442
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 3: you know, I'm not actually just a regular Joe, a

443
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 3: regular naturalized citizen and deserter. I am acting on behalf

444
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 3: of Nazi agents the abver Germany's foreign intelligence service at

445
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 3: the time. And he says further, you fools, German agents

446
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 3: have worked since late nineteen twenties to penetrate, to infiltrate industry, government,

447
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 3: and academia in the United States. And then he said, look,

448
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 3: I'll tell you my story. Because he liked talking about himself.

449
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 3: He said, I'll give you the names of ten to

450
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 3: fifteen spies that are currently working for Nazi Germany as

451
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 3: part of this infiltration operation. And I'll tell you some

452
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 3: of the stuff we already found, which is interesting.

453
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and there's a clip in the movie that

454
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 2: I guess we could play. Yeah, why not? This is

455
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 2: this is a movie from the thirties. Let's play this clip.

456
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 4: I am one of thousand stationed in every part of

457
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 4: the United States to steal the secrets of your national defense.

458
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 4: There are spies stationed in all of the Navy yards

459
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 4: in Brooklyn, Philadelphia, and Newport News. There are Nazi agents

460
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,719
Speaker 4: in the aeroplane and munition factories at Bristol.

461
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: Question, they're everywhere, The spies are everywhere. Did he say.

462
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 3: Newport News, Newport News, Virginia. Right, that's a place, Yeah,

463
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 3: Newport News, Virginia.

464
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I did not know. I thought I was

465
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: looking at a publication or a paper when I when

466
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 2: I heard Newport News.

467
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's the adaptation. Going back to Rumrick in

468
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 3: his interrogations, he does say they were able to already

469
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:54,959
Speaker 3: have stolen top secret US technology codes prototype of a

470
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 3: code breaking machine, not Enigma, importantly, that's a different one,

471
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 3: that's different realm of cryptography. And they also got data

472
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 3: about communication structures and the latest US fighter planes. So

473
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 3: they leave the interrogation room with US folks and go

474
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 3: to a very intense series of meetings and community cayse.

475
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 3: This is a classic bad news but not the worst

476
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 3: news situation. The State Department, the FBI, and the War

477
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 3: Department are in what corporate America would call a healthy

478
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 3: discussion about the next steps, which for all us non

479
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 3: corporate folks out there means that they were yelling over

480
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 3: each other and they were super pissed. And one of

481
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 3: the most pissed people is the legendarily non paranoid J

482
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 3: Edgar Hoover.

483
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well Hoover immediately looked at it and just said, guys,

484
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 2: I don't have enough control over this. This thing is compromised,

485
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: for sure. There's way too many in this pot. I

486
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: don't want I don't even want to touch it.

487
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 3: I wonder if it was even about control for him

488
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 3: as much as as much as it might have been

489
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 3: about just quality standards. I mean, you're probably right on both.

490
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 3: But but he, as you said, he noted that the

491
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 3: case was already compromised. Right, This guy by this time

492
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 3: is already ah off his office top hat, you know

493
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 3: what top hats. But he's off his top hat about

494
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 3: communist infiltration. He's he's thinking, you know, if you don't

495
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 3: work directly for me, I can't trust you. And to him,

496
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 3: the State Department, in the War Department may all be

497
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 3: already be riddled with foreign agents, but the War Department

498
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 3: insists that this is the FBI's job. And the War

499
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 3: Department at this time has a lot of juice because

500
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 3: the world is increasingly starting to They've gone from worrying

501
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 3: about a new World war to increasingly assuming that it's

502
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 3: going to happen. The poop is on the way to

503
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 3: the fan, the cars about the swerve and hit the tree.

504
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 3: So despite all the objections and ardent objections they were

505
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 3: the task of tackling the spy ring falls to the FBI.

506
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 3: This is the beginning of our second conspiracy. It's a

507
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 3: counter conspiracy, and from the jump, everybody in the FBI says, well,

508
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 3: if you work for us, you understand, you're aware of

509
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 3: our boss Hoover. You know that we have to keep

510
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 3: this stuff super secret, no chasing publicity. And this is

511
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 3: where we enter to Row at this point. He's an

512
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 3: experienced special agent and he's the kind of guy who,

513
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 3: on paper is a perfect fit for this operation.

514
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they said, hey, this is your assignment, dude,

515
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 2: get out there, get it done. So they take all

516
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 2: the information they got from Rumrick right. Then they go

517
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 2: and interview other people who were apparently a part of

518
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 2: this whole group. Who's this next person, doctor Iganskribbel.

519
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, he had already been identified as the head of

520
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 3: the US German intelligence ring. He's probably the smartest. He's

521
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 3: one of the most fortunate of the German spies. He

522
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 3: functions in a big way as a recruiter, so's it's

523
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 3: like a multi level marketing scheme. He's recruiting people, they're

524
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 3: recruiting other people, and he is. He is successfully arrested,

525
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 3: the good doctor. Weirdly enough, he makes bail and surprise,

526
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 3: as soon as he makes bail, he skips down. He's

527
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 3: off to Europe. He's not coming back, you know, And

528
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 3: it seems that Toro is realizing, despite Rumrick's claims, he

529
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 3: himself is more a minor operator. He's a minor cog,

530
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. He's not James Bond, this guy,

531
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 3: but he is a lot like a jukebox in that

532
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 3: once you put a quarter in him, the guy, I'll

533
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 3: sing And he starts breaking down the operation as far

534
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 3: as he knows it. He talks about folks like Johanna Hoffman,

535
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 3: who serves as a go between for Rumrick's contacts in Germany,

536
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 3: a guy named Carl Schluter, and he says, this Carl

537
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 3: guy Schlooter is also contacting other spies in America. Our pal,

538
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 3: Johanna Hoffmann gets a lot of mail, and that's something

539
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 3: that Hoover and the boys can look into.

540
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, reading people's mail, listening to people's calls, dode all

541
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 2: of it. What was the title. There's a Time magazine

542
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: article on this and it is titled Snoop, Look and listen.

543
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 2: They're all about that.

544
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, library records, postal records, and according to Rumrick,

545
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 3: before he was captured, he was using the code name Crown.

546
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 3: We can't even get into agent Sex, which is another

547
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 3: alleged thing is so nuts. So Rumrick, under his operator

548
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 3: named Crown, would email letters to a Scottish woman named

549
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 3: Jesse Jordan, who was also a spy for German foreign intelligence,

550
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 3: and he, in his correspondence mentions a plan for German

551
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 3: secret service agents to overpower actually to mug an American

552
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 3: Army colonel in Manhattan at the Hotel McAlpin, and they

553
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 3: were going to mug him to steal East Coast defense

554
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 3: plans for the US in the situation of war, because

555
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 3: again a war has not started yet, and the agents

556
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 3: will take the plans.

557
00:37:55,560 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the concept, right, But having the defense plans

558
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 2: for an entire seaboard of a country, if maybe your

559
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 2: navy was going to roll up, would be a nice

560
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: thing to have. It makes a lot of sense strategically, right, right.

561
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 3: And then afterwards, you know, you want to eliminate the hand, right.

562
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,959
Speaker 3: So the idea was, after they knock this guy out

563
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 3: and steal his stuff, they'll try to do a stitch

564
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 3: up job to blame vague communist forces or no communist affiliates,

565
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 3: which you know it's happened before, and it does work

566
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 3: when you pull it off. But these investigations that Touro

567
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 3: is doing. They work as sort of a daisy chain

568
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 3: and gaming connections. If this, then what so you find

569
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 3: one snake in the grass, you wiggle it a little,

570
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,720
Speaker 3: you manipulate it to revealing others And to be fair

571
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 3: Toerna's team were closing in on spies. But why did

572
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 3: the FBI itself later refer to him as a bungler.

573
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 3: You can go to the actual FBI archive and I

574
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 3: know not all the writing is super compelling, but they

575
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 3: have a lot of good articles to be like, they

576
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 3: do have some really good stuff. And what article is

577
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 3: called a bite out of history Spies Spies Lost, Lessons Learned,

578
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 3: And the FBI writes the FBI has some serious beef

579
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 3: with Leon because they say that he kind of screwed

580
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 3: the pooch on the whole thing.

581
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 2: Well, yeh. He would interview people who were telling him

582
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 2: and everybody who's interviewing them, Hi, I'm a spy. How

583
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 2: are you nice to meet you? I'm a spy, and

584
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 2: then you know, and here are all my activities I

585
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 2: was doing as a spy. And then Turo comes through

586
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,439
Speaker 2: at the end of every interview and says, okay, hey,

587
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 2: thank you so much. For all that information. You've been

588
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 2: extremely helpful. Now you're gonna have to say all of

589
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 2: this again, and you're going to testify before a grand jury. Cool,

590
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 2: and guess what most of those spies did.

591
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 3: They left, yeah, post as soon as they were out

592
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 3: of the room. They were booking a taxi to a port,

593
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 3: and they were gone, and then they were alerting other

594
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 3: people in their network. The FBI specifically says this quote

595
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 3: is a verbatim quote. After each interview, Toro told the

596
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 3: spies that they need to testify before a grand jury,

597
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 3: and most fled the country to avoid prosecution. Makes soon ass,

598
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, soon as And they shouldn't have even

599
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 3: let they shouldn't even let that doctor out on bail.

600
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 3: I was crazy. He also, fun fact, was one of

601
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 3: the first FBI investigations to employ polygraphs, which are you know,

602
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 3: junk science. But that's important because most of the later

603
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 3: cases in these conflicting conspiracies ultimately depended upon the statements

604
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 3: of spies themselves without a ton of corroborating evidence, because again,

605
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 3: the war hadn't happened yet, so it's tough to you know, like,

606
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 3: if you have the plans for defense on the East Coast,

607
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 3: and this is all over the press at the time.

608
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 3: If you have the plans for defense on the East Coast,

609
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 3: and a successful operation leverages those plans, then it's a

610
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 3: lot easier to convict people because you know, something actionable occurred.

611
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, but now you're being invaded by another country, right,

612
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 2: So you're in a whole other situation. And are you

613
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 2: even going to be able to convict somebody if you

614
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 2: can't stop an invasion? Yeah?

615
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 3: So this is again bad news, but not the worst

616
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 3: news situation untill you know, it does.

617
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: Get worse, and it will right after this break.

618
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 3: And we've returned. This became the FBI's for major international

619
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 3: spy case right in there. There had been spies busted

620
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:11,720
Speaker 3: before the creation of the FBI. There have been other operations,

621
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 3: but nothing of this magnitude. Eighteen people are indicted. The

622
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,720
Speaker 3: trial is going to be held in Manhattan Federal Court.

623
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 3: The judge is John C. Knox. It's October fourteenth, nineteen

624
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 3: thirty eight when they start selecting the jury. And I'm

625
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 3: sure there was a lot of prejudice there, right, How

626
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 3: many German Americans got to be those twelve lucky people,

627
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:41,280
Speaker 3: no wonder I'm going to say not many and October

628
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 3: fourteenth is when Rumrick pleads guilty. Fast forward just a

629
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 3: little bit December second, nineteen thirty eight, less than a

630
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 3: year before the beginning of World War two. These cases

631
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 3: go to trial. At least the case is for the

632
00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 3: people who were apprehended and didn't imediately flee down as

633
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 3: soon as they were given the chance.

634
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are three individuals, Johanna Hoffmann, Otto Hermann, Voss

635
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: and Eric Glasser GLA Sr. They were all found guilty

636
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 2: of espionage through this trial.

637
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Gunther Rumrick is found guilty as well, but

638
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 3: he gets a reduced sentence because he turns Stooley. So

639
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 3: the spies all serve between two to six years each. Again,

640
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 3: our buddy doctor Grebel has successfully fled the country in

641
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 3: nineteen thirty eight. As a funny story. In nineteen thirty eight,

642
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 3: depending on who you ask, Tureau is fired for breaking

643
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 3: the FBI the FBI oath right or the understood the

644
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 3: implicit assumption of secrecy because he's leaked stories to the press.

645
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 3: He's publicized a lot of stuff. He's the one who

646
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 3: pitched writing articles for the papers. And the one version

647
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 3: I heard to that earlier point about multiple versions. One

648
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 3: version I heard was that our buddy Leon resigned to

649
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 3: write his book, so he sent his own resignation proactively

650
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 3: to the FBI.

651
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 2: But he didn't say, hey, I'm going to go write

652
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 2: a book to like anybody official, right, he just.

653
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 3: Put in his resignation, but word got around, And that's

654
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 3: another version of this. The other if he's by fur

655
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 3: Kate and formed back. Then the conclusion of the funny

656
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 3: version of it is that j Agar Hoover finds out

657
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 3: this guy's resigning and then finds out why, and Jay

658
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 3: Edgar Hoover is furious, is consumed with wrath, and he says,

659
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 3: I reject your resignation, jerk, You're fired. No resigning for

660
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 3: you. You don't get it. It's like the opposite version of

661
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 3: you can't fire me, I quit. And the problem was

662
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 3: that there was serious damage here, and the damage reverberated. However,

663
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 3: Touro still had to go to trial right of these suspects,

664
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 3: and when he was on trial, he got accused of

665
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 3: being a huge publicity hound, like, oh, you weren't really

666
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 3: protecting America. You wanted to become famous, you wanted money, power, respect,

667
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 3: You tampered with witnesses. They even said that he took

668
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 3: a bribe from doctor Greebel, which we couldn't prove, but

669
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 3: he was accused of it, and that goes to the

670
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 3: court of public opinion. It is true though he did

671
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 3: end up writing those newspaper articles he wrote Nazi Spies

672
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 3: in America. According to some sources, those articles directly got

673
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 3: adapted to a film. According to other sources, that book

674
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 3: got adapted to a film, which is.

675
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 2: Either way, it's money right right, He.

676
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 3: Did get paid for it, which goes to ethical concerns.

677
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 3: In Matt off Air, you were saying, the title of

678
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 3: the film as it's known today is Confessions of a

679
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 3: Nazi Spy, again freely available. It's very interesting look at

680
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 3: society of the time. It is propagandistic itself because it's

681
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 3: Hollywood's first explicitly anti Nazi kind of film of this caliber.

682
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 3: But you also said you have the original working title.

683
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 2: Oh, there are several working titles, but one of them

684
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 2: that you can find on TCM if you check it out,

685
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 2: is Storm Over America. Storm was coming back in nineteen

686
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 2: thirty eight. Then it's funny in the trailer they say

687
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 2: it was our duty to make this film and it's

688
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 2: your American privilege to see it. And then it was

689
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 2: chosen as Best Picture of the Year by the National

690
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 2: Board of Review in nineteen thirty nine.

691
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I knew that part. This is I mean, this

692
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 3: is it was successful.

693
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 2: There's no way around it.

694
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 3: It was very successful. But I think we could argue

695
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 3: the film is more successful than the actual operation on

696
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,959
Speaker 3: the rum Rick spy ring because, due too, in big

697
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 3: part to Ro's investigation methods, four times as many spies

698
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 3: escaped as were captured. So it's kind of like trying

699
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 3: to It's kind of like trying to pick up rice

700
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:36,800
Speaker 3: with a fork.

701
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 2: Yeah that has not been cooked right, uncompressed?

702
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes, And I mean the other thing is,

703
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 3: you know, I was wondering if we mentioned this. This

704
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 3: is not the end of Leon's professional or personal life.

705
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 3: He was involved in a lot of other situations. You

706
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 3: would think this would be such a black marker to

707
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 3: merit on somebody's career that you're just out right you

708
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 3: retire in exile or obscurity, you start an EMU farm

709
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 3: or something. But he got hired by Eisenhower.

710
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 2: Nice career move.

711
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, he rounded up thirty five thousand or he helped

712
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 3: in an operation round up thirty five thousand suspected Nazi

713
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 3: war criminals. He got a bronze star. He wrote another book,

714
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 3: and I haven't read this one. It's called Where My

715
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 3: Shadow Falls? In nineteen forty nine.

716
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 2: I told you he's in the shadows.

717
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 3: Where does his shadow fall? Oh? He works for a billionaire.

718
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 3: He works for Jean Paul Getty. And then he just

719
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,720
Speaker 3: hangs around Paris for most of the rest of his life,

720
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 3: and he becomes like a popular dude on the street.

721
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 3: They call him the American Mayor, not an official title.

722
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 2: Yes, a man of mystery, right there.

723
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 3: An American Mayor, and he does. We do know that

724
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 3: he passes away in December tenthnineteen eighty six. And that

725
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 3: number is fascinating because these stories I don't know about you, man,

726
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:12,240
Speaker 3: These stories often feel so constrained to a distinct time

727
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 3: in history. Nineteen eighty six. It's pretty nuts. A lot

728
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 3: of people listening were around when that guy was alive.

729
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 2: It's weird to think about, but it does make me.

730
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 2: I don't know. When I think about his life overall,

731
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 2: I think about the allegations of him making up a

732
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 2: lot of stuff about himself. It does make me wonder,

733
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 2: I don't know, back in the day, like the vetting

734
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 2: process for an individual human and trying to check records,

735
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 2: you really did have to go off of word of mouth,

736
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 2: often like an employer if you're checking references or something,

737
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: or I don't know, parents, family friends, teachers, professors like

738
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 2: you just had to listen to what other people had

739
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 2: to say about somebody and trust that that was true.

740
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 3: A other Daisy chain investigation kept shaking the trees, I mean,

741
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:08,360
Speaker 3: and I love that point because then it also shows

742
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 3: us why a lot of people had collegiate backgrounds, right,

743
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 3: why a lot of State department and intelligence agencies pull

744
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 3: from what we would consider upper Aeschlot or IVY IVY

745
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 3: League schools. Right, there is a pre formed community.

746
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 2: Exactly, and everybody can say, oh, yeah, I know that person.

747
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 2: I remember they've told me this or that. Yeah, that's

748
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 2: what they told me.

749
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 3: His secret frat name is Finicky Jenkins. Oh dear, Oh okay,

750
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,359
Speaker 3: he checks out. I mean, but that's also a weakness

751
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 3: in those organizations, you know. That's why the Cambridge spy

752
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 3: ring was able to exist at all. I think it's

753
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 3: because of that inherent class system, as well as, to

754
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 3: your point, the very difficult task of vetting people. It's

755
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,399
Speaker 3: a little bit easier now, or depending on what side

756
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 3: of the fence you're on, it's a lot more difficult

757
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 3: to be a bit of a con artist. They the FBI,

758
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 3: going back to the original article, they say that this

759
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 3: guy's background just did not prepare him to do espionage,

760
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 3: and that when he leaked information about the case, he

761
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 3: violated everything an FBI agent is supposed to do. And

762
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 3: we've talked about this before. You know, whenever you read

763
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 3: an article, especially in high level US media, about an

764
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 3: official speaking on condition of anonymity, that was that was

765
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 3: greenlit like four ways the sundown, you know, before somebody

766
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 3: said yeah, i'll speak anonymously.

767
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

768
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 3: There's like tons of conversations they have to have with

769
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 3: their bosses. Somebody probably checks with another agency and says, hey,

770
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 3: are you cool with us talking trash about Taran? And

771
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:59,439
Speaker 3: they're like yeah, but don't don't use your real name.

772
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:01,399
Speaker 3: And they're like, oh, okay, I'm going to go as

773
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 3: my frat name, Finicky Jenkins. And they're like, well, just okay,

774
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 3: in that case, don't use a name at all.

775
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:11,959
Speaker 2: That's pretty honny. It is interesting how there's so much

776
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 2: to be made about Roumrick getting coins put into him

777
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 2: and then singing right, But that is pretty much what

778
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 2: Turou did because he was so excited to tell people

779
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 2: about what he had done. M all right, see some

780
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 2: commonalities here, agreed.

781
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 3: Sometimes people become the monsters they hunt right or acquire

782
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 3: their attributes. And I think that's a fantastic point because

783
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 3: we also see it was an earlier It was an

784
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 3: earlier conversation we're having about the the professor or the

785
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 3: academic who was in charge of Hannibal Lecter in Silence

786
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,720
Speaker 3: of the Lambs, both the novels and the film adaptations.

787
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 3: His main concern was publicity, right, and success, And you

788
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,399
Speaker 3: could argue, I think you could argue with a lot

789
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 3: of validity, that's Roe's at least partially doing this stuff.

790
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 3: I mean, when he leaks information, is he trying to

791
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 3: shake the tree, rouse some more operatives, or as the

792
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 3: FBI very very heavily implies, was he just trying to

793
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 3: get attention and money and center himself as a hero.

794
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 3: I don't know if those things are mutually exclusive, to

795
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 3: be honest, because sometimes people believe their own bs.

796
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's quite often the case. But I wonder,

797
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 2: I wonder how you would Okay, let's game it out.

798
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:41,359
Speaker 2: You do come out with this information, you leak it

799
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:45,399
Speaker 2: to the New York Post, and wait, how does that

800
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 2: shake the tree? How would that not cause anybody who is,

801
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:55,280
Speaker 2: you know, engaging in spying behaviors? Why would they come forward?

802
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 4: Ah?

803
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 3: It would only work if you already have strong suspicion

804
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 3: or understanding of them. So if you already know their

805
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 3: established patterns and correspondence, and you leak something like that,

806
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 3: and the next thing you do is watch them and

807
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 3: see how, if and how they alter that behavior pattern.

808
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 2: Because so if you suspect somebody of being a spy,

809
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 2: you you give in this case, real information and just

810
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 2: see how they react.

811
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 3: Right, Like I hypothetically or just thought experiment way to

812
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:35,760
Speaker 3: do it. Let's say there were let's say you and

813
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 3: Paul and I had pretty solid intel. We had arrested

814
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 3: our Rumrick or whatever, and we had a pretty good

815
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 3: understanding of five other spies in the Atlanta metro area, right,

816
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 3: and we knew their names, we knew enough about them

817
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,799
Speaker 3: to monitor or them, and then we let slide in

818
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 3: you know, the Atlanta Journal or Constitution under condition of

819
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,720
Speaker 3: anonymity or whatever, that we suspect there are more spies

820
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 3: in the Atlanta area, and then we would just keep

821
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 3: those five people on twenty four to seven surveillance to

822
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 3: see who runs for the airport first, and we would

823
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 3: meet them there.

824
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 2: That's that's really interesting, and I think that theoretically you

825
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 2: would work for those five particular people. The larger effect,

826
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,240
Speaker 2: and maybe that's what the FBI was criticizing. The larger

827
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:34,919
Speaker 2: effect is that the rest of the network, because you're

828
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 2: you're going after a small nest, basically, the rest of

829
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 2: the network just says, Okay, we're out couple.

830
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 3: Of eyes ghosts. Yeah, and you got to let the

831
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,399
Speaker 3: you got to cauterize the wound, right, so burn those

832
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 3: other five.

833
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

834
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 3: It's kind of like, this is why I'm putting it

835
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 3: in there to be fair. But this is why I

836
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 3: remain suspicious of the purity of Thuro's motives, because it

837
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:03,359
Speaker 3: reminds me of the idea of leaking information for greater

838
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 3: advantage or forward progress on an operation like this. It

839
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 3: reminds me a lot of very specific moves in fighting

840
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 3: games like Yoshimitsu. For anybody familiar with. Techan has a

841
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 3: move where he can stab himself and it does a

842
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 3: lot of damage to him. But if his opponent is

843
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 3: in a position that doesn't often happen, where they're standing

844
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 3: directly behind them, then it's a big win. But that

845
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 3: position usually doesn't happen, is the issue. That's why it's

846
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 3: a special move.

847
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 2: Why did he get a sword? Baffled me when Yoshimitzu

848
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:40,399
Speaker 2: got a sword right?

849
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 3: Oh, and everybody else is pretty much hand to hands.

850
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, go on, well what's up with that?

851
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 3: In the new Tech? And they have oh, a guy

852
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 3: who is I guess his background is a spy as well.

853
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 3: He for some reason has a knife and a gun.

854
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 2: Oh in a suit.

855
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't seem fair.

856
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 2: And they got a bear in the mix.

857
00:56:57,640 --> 00:56:59,919
Speaker 3: Come on, yeah, they had a bear in the mix.

858
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 3: Do you think you could fight a panda bear? Like,

859
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:03,839
Speaker 3: not a bear bear, but a panda bear.

860
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 2: Probably not.

861
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 3: I don't feel like I would ever. They seem so

862
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 3: non agro. I feel like if I was holding bamboo,

863
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 3: a panda bear might get angry at me or like

864
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 3: snatch for.

865
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 2: The Yeah, I just want them, yeah, come on, man,

866
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 2: give me some pamboo.

867
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's more like that Dave Chappelle character than

868
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 3: it is like nagro thing. But yeah, you're right, I

869
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 3: never thought about that. Yoshiminsu has a sword. Huh. Story

870
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 3: for another day. What is the most overpowered fighting game

871
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:41,919
Speaker 3: character in your opinion, because I think we both played

872
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 3: a lot of fighting games.

873
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know, overpowered. Uh, probably saying Gief. I'm

874
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 2: just playing.

875
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 1: That's funny.

876
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I don't know. You tell us, folks, conspiracy.

877
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio dot com. We do have to say. I guess

878
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 3: there's there is silver lining. There's this history and I've

879
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 3: been reading Rodrie Jeffrey Jones Jeffries Jones, who wrote a

880
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 3: book called the FBI a History and several other articles,

881
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 3: and Jeffries Jones argues that because of the flaws in

882
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 3: this spy ring case do pretty much entirely to Row,

883
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 3: the US embarked on a better counter espionage program like

884
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 3: it went up to Franklin D. Roosevelt, president at the time,

885
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 3: and he said, you know, his fancy version of holy smokes,

886
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 3: this is terrible. We have to make sure this doesn't

887
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 3: happen again. And so in a way this informs a

888
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 3: lot of the co intel pro stuff. We see later

889
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 3: a lot of the sweeping surveillance laws that come into

890
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 3: play the s Stellar Wind, Stellar Wind, there we go,

891
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:59,919
Speaker 3: five eyes to watch them all? You know, I don't know, man.

892
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 3: It seems like, perhaps, at least in part, because of

893
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 3: these conflicting conspiracies, the US government has gone down gone

894
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 3: down a potentially dark path, breaking or bending the laws

895
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 3: of their own country multiple times, up to and including

896
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 3: murder in service of a greater good. I mean, is

897
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 3: there a balance to be struck? And if so, what

898
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 3: is it?

899
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 2: That's a great question. Why don't you let us know

900
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 2: what you think about it? You can reach us all

901
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 2: over the place on YouTube and on x on what

902
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 2: was the other one? Facebook? We are conspiracy stuff. On

903
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 2: Instagram and TikTok we are conspiracy stuff.

904
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 3: Show and if you're not, if you're not sipping the

905
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 3: social meds, never fear. You can always contact us on

906
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 3: a telephonic device. The numbers say it along at home

907
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 3: one eight, three three std WYTK. When you call the number,

908
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,040
Speaker 3: you'll hear a message and a beep like so so

909
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 3: beep that gives you three minutes. Those three minutes are yours.

910
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 3: Go nuts. We love New leads for shows. We love reactions.

911
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 3: We also like just some nice things, like the anonymous

912
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 3: person who wrote into us and said that we talk

913
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 3: well and do things right. With eloquent emails as well.

914
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 3: Most importantly, give yourself a cool name nickname moniker. Let

915
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 3: us know if we can use your name and or

916
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 3: message on air, and if that doesn't quite bag your badgers.

917
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 3: If you have more than three minutes worth of stuff

918
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 3: to say, send us the links, Send us the pictures.

919
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 3: Take us to the edge of.

920
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 2: The rabbit hole.

921
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 3: We will do the rest. Drop us a line at

922
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 3: our good old fashioned email address where we.

923
01:00:43,560 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 2: Are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff they Don't Want

924
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:09,080
Speaker 2: you to Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more

925
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 2: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

926
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.