WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 40 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.159 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:30.120 can make your own decisions. Number what podcast is this for? Uh? Moira, 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:33.000 That's a perfect way to open this episode because it's 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:36.680 it could happen here, the podcast about things falling apart 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.920 um and putting them back together. Sometimes not often enough 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:47.720 because I'm a hack and a fraud. Um. But um, 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:50.800 this is Robert Evans and my guest today is Moira 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:54.959 Meltzer Cohen. Moira, you are my lawyer and you are 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:59.280 my editor. You edited after the Revolution book in stores now, 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:03.560 so you're you're you're many many things to me, um, 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:06.840 and today you're gonna help me understand the Supreme Court. 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:14.160 Well that's let me be a little more specific about 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:18.360 why we're chatting today on for the internet sake. Um. 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:23.039 The Supreme Court last week issued a ruling and there 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:24.760 may have been another ruling by the time you hear this, 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:29.000 but this specific ruling was about a case that had 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:32.240 to do with what's called a Bivens action. Um. If 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:36.200 you have seen people talking about this Supreme Court ruling online, 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.720 it has probably been with them sharing an image of 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.360 the United States that shows the hundred mile zone where 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:48.559 border patrol is able to operate. UM, and being like, now, 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:51.080 because of this ruling, border patrol can come into your 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:54.720 house with impunity and do whatever they want to you. Um. 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:58.600 There's been a lot of like stuff said about this ruling, 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:03.160 and as is often the case when people are getting 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:07.520 really up in arms about the niche aspects of a 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.480 court ruling, they're not entirely correct about what the ruling does. Um. 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.360 The hundred mile zone is absolutely a real thing, and 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:16.400 the Feds can do all sorts of funked up shipped 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:20.080 to you in your house. But that is UM, let's 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:26.360 talk about this, yeah, UM sure, So. I think the 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:29.760 first place to start is people are always asking me, 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:33.840 when can the Feds kick in my door? My girlfriend 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:39.600 always says when it's closed, But I say is whenever 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:45.160 they want to? Uh, what might change from case to cases. 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:50.720 They rationalize it in court later. Um. And so this 0:02:50.800 --> 0:03:00.320 is this is really a case that further reinforces the 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:05.320 fact that for many, many years, UM, federal agents h 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:12.000 in particular border control have been able, have had a 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:21.160 lot of power to conduct searches if they rationalize those 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:26.840 searches with respect to immigration or in this case the 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:34.440 even more hype term national security. So, um, this is 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:39.760 not new. The federal statute outlining the powers and duties 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:45.640 of border officers was past I think in ninety two, 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:51.800 and I believe always said that border agents can conduct 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:55.800 searches within quote a reasonable distance of the border. I 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.880 think case law has determined that that reasonable distance is 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:03.280 a hundred miles. Yeah, we're not really looking at anything 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:11.080 particularly new here. Um. So that one of the things 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:15.160 about this hundred miles, As people keep saying, oh, the 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:19.839 Fourth Amendment doesn't exist within a hundred miles of the border, Um, 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:22.159 it does. This is not considered to be a violation 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:24.920 of the Fourth Amendment because a search within a reasonable 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:30.120 distance of the border is considered a reasonable search right. 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:34.920 The Fourth Amendment protects you from unreasonable searching, and this 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:40.679 is statutorily considered a reasonable search right. So I feel 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:43.240 like a lot of the media around this particular case 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:46.040 is kind of an exercise and extreme point missing. It's 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:50.479 both an overreaction to some things that are outrageous but 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:57.279 are in no way new. Um, everyone's sharing these maps, 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.280 like you said, Um, and again it's one of those 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:02.359 things where it's like we're not saying there's not a 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.120 lot of that, this is not a problem. That there 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.960 aren't problems with the there's that the hundred mile zone 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.400 isn't a problem the border patrol. There's not a lot 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:12.520 of messed up stuff that they do. It's it's the 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.360 idea that like this ruling came out and suddenly there's 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:17.680 no more Fourth Amendment, right like, which is how some 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:20.760 people have interpreted it. Because the Internet is a machine 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:25.799 that devours context, that's right, social media, I should say, Yeah, sure. 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:30.280 So so this case is is called Egbert v. Bull, 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.919 which I just think it's a marvelous case name, and 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:36.920 these are all incredible. The original Bivens case is Bivens 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.039 versus six unknown named agents, which I also elect a 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:46.520 lot six unknown narcotics agents. Yeah. Well, I mean there's 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:51.960 a lot of sort of wonderful case names. Um. My favorite, 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:59.120 of course is Alien v. Predator. Um, Yeah, you see 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.400 what I did there? I did, I did. I just 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:05.880 showed Garrison Aliens last weekend, so I was, oh, for 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:11.960 the first time, Yes, marvelous. Uh. So, I don't know. 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.320 I think what's happening here is that even among people 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:16.800 who kind of have a sense of history or an analysis, 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:20.560 there's maybe this lingering belief that the legal system is 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:23.440 supposed to protect us, or that maybe at some time 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:26.360 it did protect us, and it just like persists like 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:32.599 a vestigial tale of of like hope. Yeah, but I 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:34.559 kind of love this case. I did read this case 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:38.120 and um, at least as Clarence Thomas describes him. The 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:42.480 plaintiff in this case whose bool is basically the viewpoint 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:47.440 character from a Steely Dance song like he like appears 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:49.839 to have sort of spring fully for him from the 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:52.880 head of Donald Fagan, and he drove off with his 0:06:53.160 --> 0:07:00.200 vanity plate that says smuggler. Honestly, I'm sure going to 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:02.400 tell me it was something problematic, but sounds like a 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:07.520 cool dude to me. He spent years playing both sides 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.160 of this game. He would get paid by people to 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.960 smuggle them across the Canadian border and he'd make them, 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:15.440 he'd like extort money from them. He'd make them buy 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:17.480 a room at his hotel, even if they weren't going 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:20.560 to stay at his hotel, and then he'd charge them 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:23.400 money for every hour that he spent driving to pick 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:27.720 them up and take them across to Canada. And then 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:29.720 he would turn around and get paid by the Feds 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.480 to snitch on the people who had just paid him 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.600 to smuggle them across the border. Cheez, yeah, all right, 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.920 now I don't think this guy's cool. Yeah, So he 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.400 basically ends up getting in an altercation with a federal 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:48.880 agent and he's back to being cool, okay, And then 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:53.280 when he makes an administrative complaint to the agency, the 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.400 agent six the i R S on him. This is, 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:02.480 I mean, alright, not good behavior, right right. But now, 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:05.560 after years of doing dirty work for the Feds, Bool 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:09.600 is outraged because he never thought tigers would eat his face. 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:17.440 So he assues the agent under Bivens, which is a 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:23.800 case that sort of a little bit maybe sometimes gives 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:31.880 individuals a very narrowly tenuous, circumscribed opportunity to sue federal 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:36.000 agents for certain civil rights violations. And um, it's not 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:38.920 a very strong right and it has been getting ever 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:44.839 more eviscerated since. Yeah. Um, And really, what Bivens does 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:50.000 is it gives you, uh, you know, in the very 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.520 unlikely event that you win a Bivens claim, it gives 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.400 you money, damages. It doesn't give you a better a law. 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.600 It doesn't give you better police practices, it doesn't make 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:05.680 you safer. It's not nothing. But it's not like it's 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:09.520 it's money justically what the law can give you. Right, So, 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:13.000 unless you're harboring the delusion that there is a sort 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:19.360 of direct connection between being allowed to try, usually unsuccessfully, 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:24.960 to recover money from the federal government and the self 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:29.560 control or good behavior of federal agents, Vivons is not 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:34.400 actually a particularly useful mechanism for pursuing anything that resembles 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:40.559 like a well developed vision of justice. Right, It's not nothing. 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.480 I don't I don't want to dismiss the utility of 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:48.760 Vivian's but it's you know, it's not like it's not 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:53.880 a strong right. It's not a reliable right you know, 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:59.880 to sue. Um, it's not very effective. One of my 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:05.480 loved colleagues uh described it. He said, Bivens is such 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:09.920 a bad doctrine that it's taking other doctrines down with it. Right, 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:16.320 It's just it's um, it's just such a weak case 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:21.000 at this point that it trying to trying to use 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.640 it and trying to invoke it can actually end up 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:28.800 just being counterproductive, as it is in this case. Right. Yeah, 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:34.280 we have a very unsympathetic plaintiff and we have a 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:38.439 really weak doctrine, so he sues under Bivens. It goes 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:40.120 up and down the chords. It winds up in the 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:43.600 Supreme Court, which issues a sort of a bunch of 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:49.520 sort of fragmented opinions, but ultimately all the justices mostly 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:55.160 agree this is not a super controversial um question, at 0:10:55.200 --> 0:11:00.880 least within the context of the court itself. Yeah. So 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:04.319 the first thing is they all say, you don't there's 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:09.200 no right to sue for money damages under the theory 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:13.480 of First Amendment retaliation. Meaning um wool had sued the 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:19.120 agent for basically for punishing him for making a complaint. 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:22.080 He's saying, I exercise my First Amendment right to make 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:25.679 a complaint to the agency you work for, and then 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.880 you punished me by sicking the I R S on me. Right, 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:39.840 I see why that's questionable in the actual like legal documentation. Yeah, so, um, 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.960 you know, the justice to say no, that that's not 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:45.440 a right that exists. And then they have some different 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:49.360 thoughts on whether or not you can sue for excessive force. Um. 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:54.040 But ultimately, the big decision that is made here isn't 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:59.679 about the border. It's not about the relative impunity of 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:07.120 order Patrol, which has long operated with relative impunity, just 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:12.559 like the rest of the federal government. Yes, I remember 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.400 that impunity when they were firing tear gas at us. 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:25.200 Yeah you know. Uh, they decide you can't sue them, um, 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.920 which if you, if you ever could have sued them, 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:32.240 I guess in a successful or effective way, and if 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:37.480 suing them had ever had a meaningful impact on their behavior, 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.840 I guess this opinion would be a real loss. But 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.320 all this o Hinian really does as far as I 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.560 can tell, And I've spoken with my colleagues and we 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:53.079 all agreed that the sort of uproar over this particular 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.880 case is a little baffling because all it really does 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:02.280 is further remove what was already a really inaccessible and 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:08.640 pretty weak remedy. And yeah, sorry sir, well you know, 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:12.320 and then everyone lost their minds and started sharing the 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.960 a c L S a c L used map of 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.480 the hundred miles of border looks like and getting really 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.760 mad on Twitter. Yeah, and again the hundred mile border zone. 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:24.000 I think it's fair to say that that's a problem. 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.480 I don't like that's that's a bad way for things 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.080 to work. The border patrol, as we talked about in 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:31.240 our two part are on the border patrol, is a 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:34.640 lot of massive issues with it. But um, I feel 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.560 like kind of what's happening here is some of this 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.080 is like a little bit of collective PTSD because of 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.520 the shock of the imminent kind of demise of Row. 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:47.679 And so I think maybe there's this kind of expectation 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:52.080 that every ruling issued by the Supreme Court because Funckett 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:55.840 is going to be UM this kind of like earth 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:58.920 shattering like end of a fundamental right. And in this 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:01.079 case it's really just like, no, this is more or 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:06.400 less like this is not a massive see change. Yeah, 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.079 I like to say about this kind of thing. It's appalling, 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:12.800 but it's not surprising. I do want to note, just 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:17.000 for your listeners, this case does not in any way 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:23.520 touch our right to sue state level police um because 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:27.800 there is federal legislation called sec that gives us permission 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:31.680 to sue the police, and UM, for some strange reason, 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.200 the federal government has not passed similar legislation allowing us 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:41.640 to sue them. That's really surprising. I wonder why. So 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.120 In any case, one of the things the Court says 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.080 in the Bool opinion is that if the Feds wanted 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.160 to be constrained by the citizen, RECongress would have given 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:55.400 us the right to constrain them. So so I think 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:59.760 this particular case that people have been doing out about 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:07.960 is a great sort of example of the way that UM, 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:14.800 the sort of the zeitgeist moves inexplicably to make much 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:20.360 of things that are maybe not all that much, and 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:24.400 will also kind of failing to notice things that are 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.640 really significant. And so I'd like to sort of highlight 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.560 some of those things. UM. I think there actually are 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:37.000 real reasons to breathe and prepare and gather our courage, UM, 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.640 based on what the Supreme Court has done this term, UH, 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:42.480 and I love to talk to you about some of 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.200 those things. So I do think there are real reasons 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:49.040 like that to breathe and prepare, and some of the 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:53.200 always about getting too in the weed. UM. I guess 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:55.440 I want to talk both about the shadow adopt it 0:15:55.640 --> 0:16:00.760 which sat adopt it is a is a kind of 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:05.160 a more recently point term. Um. What it means is 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:10.040 what it's referring to are the cases that are often heard, 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.840 they're not heard. They're decided by the Supreme Court on 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:17.800 the basis of the record below, often without oral argument, 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:24.080 and they're often issued as holding decisions without written opinions, 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:28.200 so they're often not justified or rationalized or you know, 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:32.480 the reasoning for the decisions that are made is often 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:38.880 not made transparent to the public. Okay. Yeah, And these 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:45.080 are cases that are sort of highly procedural or there 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:50.120 not super complicated questions, or they're questions of law where 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.360 there's maybe a circuit what it um, and they just 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:58.560 need to resolve you know, what might otherwise be repugnant 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:03.280 views of the law. Yeah. And the shadow docket has 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:09.080 refinently include a jet pinaltycation. Yeah, the decided something of 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:14.239 such grave import with decisions that are not explained by 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:20.960 an opinion where the justice is not makes clear the reasoning. Um, 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:29.359 this is I mean, in my opinion, MH problematic. Um. 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.800 And it's you know, to the amount of power that 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:37.000 can be exercised by the superin court. To me, I 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:42.280 think requires a really intense degree of transparency. If you're 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.800 I think that like the amount of transparency that is 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:51.159 it's incumbent upon you to have is sort of inversely 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.639 proportionate to the amount of power you exercise. Yeah, that 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:58.000 makes sense, um, And so the Supreme Court has just 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:02.040 I mean literally life with it powers here, and so 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.760 for them to be making decisions on the shadow dotet 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:10.280 about death penalty cases and death penalty juristic um is 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:16.480 just wild. Um, It's troubling, it's frightening. You know, I 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:20.080 think I can't remember if I talked to you before 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:26.879 about how about the injuries? Yeah, maybe the show about it, 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:28.920 but I certainly talked to you about it. We might 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:30.600 need to do it. It's probably a good idea at 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:35.160 some point to do a show about it. But yeah, Um, 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:39.120 one of the things that makes br injuries so anomalous 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:44.919 is that they aren't public, right, and that to me, 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:49.040 like this is a mathema. Well not to me, it 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:53.320 is in terms of the sort of um received wisdom 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:58.320 about the American legal system. To have secret proceedings is 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:02.359 a mathema. Who you are their own principles of due process, 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:06.960 which you know, which involves uh well noticed and adhering. 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:14.159 But really there's um a commitment to publicity right in 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:18.760 the American legal system that is undermined and trampled upon 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:24.120 by federal granturity, and that there is a similar thing 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.280 happening here with the shadow docket. We know at least 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:29.640 what the cases are, we know what these opinions are, 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.320 what the holdings end up being, UM. But to have 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:35.320 these kinds of cases being decided without oral argument, to 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:40.320 have these cases being decided UM without written opinions, is troubling. 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:46.480 So that's a move toward an exercise of power that 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:50.359 I need characterize as a politarian, and that I find 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.399 days concerning UM. One of the things that we're seeing, 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:56.480 and I think it's sort of not unrelated to that, 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:00.360 is that they're they seem to be dispensing the bat 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.639 when it is very decisive, which is precedent right that 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:10.199 the idea that previously decided cases are binding, and you know, 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.720 if you overturn one, you really have to be very 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:15.600 clear that that's what you're doing, and you have to 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:18.960 explain why. And we see that with the leaf Rose Grasp, 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:25.520 where they they have, you know, if indeed they issue it. 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:29.160 Sure because and this is like an originalism thing, right, 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:31.480 Like you can throw out precedent if you're saying all 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:35.320 that matters is this interpretation. You're saying that's based on 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:39.879 the original intent of like some dead dudes. Is that 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:42.200 more or less an accurate way to say it? Or 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:49.600 you can overturn DESI UM, you know, or turned precedent. 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:55.040 We would have that. I think the just outcome or 0:20:55.240 --> 0:21:01.120 whatever is UM. Yeah, but I think there there's many 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:04.879 reasons that he can overturn President UM. But they seem 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:09.360 to be doing it for subsilential right. They're not. They're 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:13.400 not always the leak road rap didn't was pretty clear 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:16.320 and parent about it. But I think there are some 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:19.040 other things that are going on. Um. There was a 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:26.720 sixth Amendment case where UM they just just sort of 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:33.399 didn't mention all of the countervailing precedents. Yeah, you know 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:38.200 they there's some stuff happening. There is UM a case 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:41.880 in Texas. There was a fishermendent case work the courts. 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:47.680 The Supreme Court sent it back down to UM either 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:49.800 the district as the Court of Appeals. I don't I 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:55.840 don't remember UM or either the district or the circuit uh, 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:59.360 and said, look at the side is on death road 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:04.760 did absolutely with thee in effective asistence of council whether 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:12.919 the as prejudice and the technic court just ignored them. Yeah, 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:16.080 and that's one of those ones that people freaked out about. 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:18.920 That was like, yeah, I think folks should be very 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:22.439 unsettled by this right. And then the court was like, 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:27.159 m they didn't the court. There's Supreme Court that didn't. 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:31.399 They just let them get away with it. Um. And 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:37.160 so there's just sort of weird um push and full 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:43.119 happening not only between this court interpreting the last court 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:50.520 opinions and deciding basically not to enforce them, but but 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:55.240 there's a interesting power struggle where the opinion Court seems 0:22:55.280 --> 0:23:01.159 to be strategically feeding power to certain uh certain lower 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:07.560 courts in a way that unusual. You know. So you know, 0:23:07.600 --> 0:23:13.760 they're not they're not being transparent, they are not following precedence, 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:17.840 they are not um enforcing the hierarchy of the courts, 0:23:17.880 --> 0:23:20.360 which it does sound like an odd thing. I can 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:23.960 put you need to complain about um. But one of 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:26.600 one of the things that we want to know is 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:29.320 that you know, One of the ways that we can 0:23:29.359 --> 0:23:34.480 anticipate what the law is or make reliable legal arguments 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:38.480 is that the law has to be consistent with you know, 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:40.440 the law and the lower court that's to be consistent 0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:42.720 with what the Supreme Court has said. And if we 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:49.200 can no longer rely on that, UM, it's um, you know, chaotic. Potentially, 0:23:49.920 --> 0:23:53.480 it's really bad. It's really bad for our clients, apparently, 0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:57.159 particularly clients who are facing the death penalty, which is 0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:01.960 a particular concerns. UM. This court does seems pretty intent 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:06.680 on knocking over the Empire sist Amendment. UM. And then 0:24:06.720 --> 0:24:09.320 I think yesterday or the day before, they issued a 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:12.640 really important immigration case on the class actions that were 0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:18.440 brought UM by around behalf of people who were detained 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:21.440 an immigration detention for like months and months and months 0:24:21.440 --> 0:24:27.119 without hearing, without vant hearing. And essentially what the court 0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:31.639 held was UM that lower courts don't have any authority 0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:37.920 to UM lower coach stuff. So many authorities to UM 0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:45.640 demand that the federal government do or not do certain 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:49.720 things because they're they're playing as as the Immigration Naturalization 0:24:49.840 --> 0:24:54.320 Act does not give them that authority UM. And so 0:24:54.560 --> 0:24:57.520 it's there there's a lot I think the big trend 0:24:57.600 --> 0:24:59.840 there is there's a lot of protecting the federals of 0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:06.000 this from any kind of accountability. Um, accountability that's being 0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:10.320 imposed by lower general courts who are concerned the States, right. 0:25:11.160 --> 0:25:15.520 They have a cool way of showing it. I don't 0:25:15.520 --> 0:25:17.159 know what else to say about it, because it is 0:25:17.160 --> 0:25:20.760 one of those things where when we talk about, or 0:25:20.800 --> 0:25:24.120 when I talk about, like the frustration at people kind 0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:27.320 of sharing information about stuff the Court is doing, or 0:25:27.359 --> 0:25:30.760 about changes to how our rights are being interpreted by 0:25:30.760 --> 0:25:35.080 courts that are incorrect. It's not because like there's not 0:25:35.240 --> 0:25:39.200 a problem. It's because it's really important to be aware 0:25:39.600 --> 0:25:42.680 of like the it's really important to like see the 0:25:43.000 --> 0:25:47.240 problem accurately, um, and to see it like it's this 0:25:47.520 --> 0:25:49.840 it's this broad assault. Like like you said, the fact 0:25:49.880 --> 0:25:52.080 that the fact that you have this kind of high 0:25:52.119 --> 0:25:55.720 level attack on the Fifth Amendment is really frightening because 0:25:55.760 --> 0:26:01.879 that's one of like theoretically our primary protections. Yeah, there's 0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:04.680 also I think there's going to be a mirandic case. 0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:10.040 Okay already, Oh boy, I'm not looking forward to that. 0:26:11.080 --> 0:26:16.560 That's a little bit anxious about that. Um, Yeah, I 0:26:16.600 --> 0:26:20.920 don't know. I mean I think that the general thing. So, 0:26:23.600 --> 0:26:28.199 you know, I think the thing that I would like 0:26:28.240 --> 0:26:34.639 to highlight your paying attention to what writes just the 0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:38.720 Freme Court is trampling on It's obviously pretty important, but 0:26:40.160 --> 0:26:43.000 it's pretty likely to be kind of more of the same, 0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:48.159 particularly for quality targeted groups of people. I like the 0:26:48.280 --> 0:26:54.080 lot is in certain respects fictional, right, Like the lies 0:26:54.400 --> 0:27:02.800 an abstract concept. Sure, absolutely, yes, your real impact it's 0:27:02.840 --> 0:27:04.639 not you know, like I don't want to get all 0:27:04.720 --> 0:27:07.560 post modern here. It's not like a lot of fictional 0:27:07.680 --> 0:27:15.960 things have have real impacts, um exactly, Like, uh, it 0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:20.879 has real impact obviously, but I think that the impact 0:27:21.080 --> 0:27:26.800 of the import ruling, you know, it's very serious, it's 0:27:26.920 --> 0:27:33.320 very important. Um, but it's also sort of immediately transformed 0:27:33.320 --> 0:27:35.639 the world. I think it just sort of changes what 0:27:35.760 --> 0:27:39.960 kinds of solutions we look to, right, And like, I'm 0:27:40.000 --> 0:27:45.600 not particularly inclined to look to the court to protect 0:27:46.000 --> 0:27:52.280 me for anyone, um and not particularly I don't trust 0:27:53.400 --> 0:27:58.119 the law or spurts enough to really want them to 0:27:58.240 --> 0:28:03.520 be the arbiter of things place free, siege or Yeah, 0:28:04.400 --> 0:28:10.119 absolutely not. I mean, obviously I want very council, but um, 0:28:10.160 --> 0:28:14.879 you know, my hope is that we can take carib 0:28:14.920 --> 0:28:17.879 ease whether or not to make the course they're relevant 0:28:17.920 --> 0:28:23.359 will realize the dead type dream. But um, I guess 0:28:26.160 --> 0:28:29.119 this thing, you know, especially with roads, and I was 0:28:29.400 --> 0:28:32.119 I was talking to Margaret, a mutual friend, about this. 0:28:33.280 --> 0:28:40.160 The thing that's going to change if we're always overturned. Uh, 0:28:40.520 --> 0:28:43.320 it's really going to be what delusions are available to 0:28:43.520 --> 0:28:46.720 us and how much courage will it take to pursue 0:28:46.760 --> 0:28:52.640 them and what are the potential consequencely right, Yeah, what 0:28:52.840 --> 0:28:59.320 kind of resources it do you need? Um? I think 0:29:01.600 --> 0:29:06.040 in the space of these Supreme Court decisions, some of 0:29:06.120 --> 0:29:10.360 which are genuinely terrible, um, and some of which are 0:29:10.480 --> 0:29:15.800 just reinforcing things that have belonged in the two Yeah, 0:29:17.280 --> 0:29:20.240 you know, our grief and our outraged and are bitter 0:29:20.400 --> 0:29:28.520 popes are not practiced. Um, they're not necessarily useful, right, 0:29:30.000 --> 0:29:33.600 and and even getting super in the leaves of you know, 0:29:33.800 --> 0:29:36.440 what does this opinion actually say? I mean, I think 0:29:36.720 --> 0:29:40.360 that's an interesting but it's and it's good to know 0:29:40.560 --> 0:29:44.080 and to at least have somebody around you know. Um. 0:29:45.840 --> 0:29:53.200 But instead of spending so much time focusing on the 0:29:54.440 --> 0:30:01.120 real knit, picky language was being used by the unelected 0:30:01.280 --> 0:30:05.880 God things of the United States. Maybe we start thinking 0:30:05.960 --> 0:30:09.360 a little bit more about what are the material impacts 0:30:09.400 --> 0:30:13.280 that might have and what are ways, what are tools 0:30:13.520 --> 0:30:17.680 that maybe aren't legal tools or at least that are 0:30:17.960 --> 0:30:24.239 only legal tools, UM, that might be useful in UM 0:30:24.480 --> 0:30:30.400 picturing the things that we value. And I think that's 0:30:30.840 --> 0:30:33.360 both an important note and a good one to end on. 0:30:33.720 --> 0:30:37.960 Moira Um, I will run one thing by you real quick. 0:30:38.280 --> 0:30:42.320 So I have a plan and I want to I 0:30:42.440 --> 0:30:44.840 want your advice in the constitutionality of this. I would 0:30:44.920 --> 0:30:48.320 like to acquire Fort Bragg. So I'm thinking what I 0:30:48.440 --> 0:30:50.840 do is I go in a Third Amendment case right 0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:53.440 and say that, well, I mean if look, you can't 0:30:54.400 --> 0:30:57.280 what if we just extended the Quartering Act right like 0:30:57.440 --> 0:31:00.040 in the you know, could we could we push it 0:31:00.200 --> 0:31:03.080 even further so that nobody can host soldiers and then 0:31:03.120 --> 0:31:05.280 all those military bases are gonna be there's gonna be 0:31:05.320 --> 0:31:07.800 a fire sale. You can't keep soldiers on them, Government's 0:31:07.840 --> 0:31:09.200 not going to keep running them. And then I get 0:31:09.240 --> 0:31:12.600 to own Fort Bragg. How are we doing? Is that 0:31:12.920 --> 0:31:16.480 is that legal? It's the whole end popole that you 0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:19.360 own Fort Bragg. That is one of the end goals. 0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:24.600 I think you should probably cost context that rating. Okay, okay, 0:31:25.360 --> 0:31:30.280 because yeah, you're right, they're probably gonna outbid me anyway, Okay, 0:31:30.880 --> 0:31:34.200 But constitutionally, I'm on solid grounds with the third Right. 0:31:34.440 --> 0:31:41.120 That's bulletproof, you know. Like like many of the questions 0:31:41.200 --> 0:31:44.520 you asked me, the legal questions you asked me, I 0:31:44.640 --> 0:31:49.120 think the answers. Nobody knows, nobody knows. Okay, I'm gonna 0:31:49.440 --> 0:31:51.200 I'm gonna do what the n r A did with 0:31:51.320 --> 0:31:53.360 the second but with the Third Amendment. It's going to 0:31:53.480 --> 0:31:55.840 take a couple of decades, but I feel I feel 0:31:55.880 --> 0:31:59.080 good about this course of action. Thank you for putting 0:31:59.120 --> 0:32:00.840 up with me. More you had some stuff you wanted 0:32:00.840 --> 0:32:03.160 to plug at the end of this episode, Here I do. 0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:07.920 I would like us the rep Legal Defense Fund of 0:32:08.400 --> 0:32:11.920 if when how because if we're going to talk about 0:32:12.160 --> 0:32:16.880 row at all, the oh boy, yeah, a fund fund 0:32:16.960 --> 0:32:21.240 which can be found at repro Legal Defense Fund dot org. 0:32:21.920 --> 0:32:25.040 They have a donate page. They're doing amazing work. I'm 0:32:25.960 --> 0:32:28.560 um just incredibly impressed with um. They are also at 0:32:28.600 --> 0:32:34.520 RECRO Legal Defense Funds on Instagram and probably also on Twitter. UM, 0:32:36.600 --> 0:32:39.440 but I don't really understand Twitter, so I'm not going 0:32:39.520 --> 0:32:42.280 to swear to it. That's for the best. We'll check 0:32:42.360 --> 0:32:48.680 that out dot com retro legal fund, So please donate 0:32:48.880 --> 0:32:55.000 to the Reproductive Legal Fund Twitter dot com repro legal Fund. 0:32:56.200 --> 0:32:59.560 By the time this episode drops, we may have the 0:32:59.720 --> 0:33:06.560 row thing. So I know everybody's gearing up, but you 0:33:06.640 --> 0:33:10.360 know this is definitely uh, it's it's it's good to 0:33:10.400 --> 0:33:14.440 help out. We all need to be like Poland because 0:33:14.600 --> 0:33:17.520 we're not going to yank this back on course through 0:33:17.600 --> 0:33:21.520 just hoping that eventually Supreme Court gets better. Well, we're 0:33:21.560 --> 0:33:25.400 gonna wish really hard. It would be nice, it would 0:33:25.400 --> 0:33:29.400 be nice, but I think organizing is probably a more 0:33:29.440 --> 0:33:33.960 effective thing to do in the immediate term. Um, so yeah, 0:33:34.240 --> 0:33:53.520 I thank you, Moira, and um that's the episode. Oh 0:33:55.080 --> 0:33:59.959 it could happen here? Which is the podcast that can say? 0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:04.120 Is I'm Robert Evans with me? Are other people hello? 0:34:04.240 --> 0:34:11.840 Other people? Hi? Hello? Uh so this podcast? Thanks falling 0:34:11.880 --> 0:34:16.120 about part putting back together? YadA, YadA, YadA. Today our guest, 0:34:16.520 --> 0:34:20.200 well not our guest. Our host is uh the inimitable 0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:23.880 Andrew Andrew. Hey, Hey, how's it going? What are we 0:34:23.920 --> 0:34:27.120 talking about today? What are we learning? I'm good? I'm good? 0:34:27.400 --> 0:34:31.920 Um today open to tackle another book kind of Um, 0:34:32.080 --> 0:34:34.960 this one's not fictional like the past two. UM. So 0:34:35.120 --> 0:34:37.680 I do hope to like explore some of those in 0:34:37.680 --> 0:34:40.359 the future because I think some good conversations come out 0:34:40.400 --> 0:34:43.760 to those. This week, we're gonna be talking about Paulo 0:34:43.880 --> 0:34:49.960 Freire and the pedagogy of the oppressed. Oh yes, for 0:34:50.040 --> 0:34:54.200 those who don't know, Paulo Freire is Brazilian educator and 0:34:54.840 --> 0:34:58.440 one of the leading advocates of Well was Brazilian educator 0:34:58.880 --> 0:35:02.920 and leading advocates of critical pedagogy. Pedagogy is basically like 0:35:03.160 --> 0:35:06.680 the study of education, philosophy of education UM. He was 0:35:06.719 --> 0:35:12.560 born in nine and his experiences kind of led him 0:35:12.600 --> 0:35:15.800 to that path because during his childhood and ad lessons, 0:35:16.600 --> 0:35:21.200 he was falling behind in school because he was poor. 0:35:22.320 --> 0:35:25.040 His poverty and his hunger affected his ability to learn. 0:35:25.760 --> 0:35:29.080 And so as he got older and he got opportunities 0:35:29.120 --> 0:35:30.680 and he was able to study and so on, and 0:35:32.120 --> 0:35:35.120 he basically realized he needs to do more to uplift 0:35:35.520 --> 0:35:38.520 the lives of the poor, improved lives of the poor, UM, 0:35:39.160 --> 0:35:45.319 in order to facilitate better educational outcomes. As he says, 0:35:45.360 --> 0:35:48.360 and were cold, I didn't understand anything because of my hunger. 0:35:48.760 --> 0:35:51.800 I wasn't dumb, it wasn't a lack of interest. My 0:35:51.960 --> 0:35:55.360 social condition just didn't allow me to have an education. 0:35:56.080 --> 0:36:00.000 Experience showed me once again the relationship between social class 0:36:00.080 --> 0:36:05.600 us and knowledge. So as he progressed in his studies 0:36:05.719 --> 0:36:09.120 and his writing and stuff, he eventually contributed to a 0:36:09.160 --> 0:36:13.800 philosophy of education which blended classical approaches coming from Plato 0:36:14.040 --> 0:36:19.160 and modern Marxist and post Marxist and anti clonial thinkers. 0:36:19.960 --> 0:36:22.600 When I was reading the book, it really sort of 0:36:22.680 --> 0:36:25.719 struck me. I've got a lot of UM and a 0:36:25.800 --> 0:36:29.480 lot of France found on vibes from his work. He 0:36:29.640 --> 0:36:36.400 died in um r I p um. But his greatest 0:36:36.440 --> 0:36:39.840 contribution UM to me at least and to most people, 0:36:40.440 --> 0:36:45.000 is his book The Pedagogy of the Oppressed. In the book, 0:36:45.120 --> 0:36:50.759 he sort of explores a detailed Marxist class analysis UM 0:36:50.880 --> 0:36:53.719 in the relationship between like the colonize and colonize, the 0:36:53.719 --> 0:36:58.760 oppressed and the oppressed, And he talks about the banking 0:36:58.880 --> 0:37:03.640 model of education that traditional pedagogy spouses because it treats 0:37:03.680 --> 0:37:08.279 the students as like this bank, this empty vessel to 0:37:08.400 --> 0:37:12.239 be filled with knowledge. Instead, he argues for a form 0:37:12.280 --> 0:37:17.520 of education, of pedagogy that treats the lunar as a 0:37:17.680 --> 0:37:21.440 co creator in knowledge as far as I'm aware, um, 0:37:22.200 --> 0:37:25.239 and I guess it's kind of is illustrated in the 0:37:25.280 --> 0:37:28.319 book itself. But as far as I know, there wasn't 0:37:28.640 --> 0:37:32.840 an anarchist or libertarian socialist of any variety, but he 0:37:32.960 --> 0:37:37.680 still ended up coming to some anarchic conclusions with regard 0:37:37.800 --> 0:37:41.600 to the education system and learning and stuff. I mean, 0:37:41.800 --> 0:37:44.560 anarchists have been writing about, you know, like youth liberation 0:37:44.719 --> 0:37:48.240 and the school system and even experimenting with new models 0:37:48.280 --> 0:37:53.320 of schooling for a long time. Um. The Forever Movement, 0:37:53.480 --> 0:37:59.160 for example, experimented with implementing modern schools in UM in 0:37:59.200 --> 0:38:01.680 the US and Spain, and a Goldman was very much 0:38:01.719 --> 0:38:06.080 involved in that process. And UM, I don't think that 0:38:06.160 --> 0:38:09.160 the experiments were necessarily free of error, but I think 0:38:09.200 --> 0:38:12.520 they did a good job of trying something new, trying 0:38:12.600 --> 0:38:16.360 something with more liberatory in the spare of education, because 0:38:16.440 --> 0:38:20.080 I mean, for the past several hundred years now, UM, 0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:23.719 we've kind of been going with this sort of um. 0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:29.000 Prussian model of education is very strict, very regimented, very 0:38:29.040 --> 0:38:35.360 divided model of education. The rules UM to sort of ferment, 0:38:35.600 --> 0:38:40.759 nationalism and division, class divisions and stuff within the populace. 0:38:41.760 --> 0:38:44.440 So I think that any experimentation in mo libitary and 0:38:44.440 --> 0:38:51.040 direction is a positive. In the preface, um Fair sort 0:38:51.040 --> 0:38:53.920 of goes into why this book came about. He's talking 0:38:53.920 --> 0:38:57.960 about his experience as a teacher in Brazil, the times, 0:38:58.520 --> 0:39:02.080 the observations he made well in political exile, and so 0:39:03.560 --> 0:39:05.560 what he realized as a teacher when he was teaching 0:39:05.640 --> 0:39:08.280 students is that they had a sort of a fair 0:39:08.560 --> 0:39:11.800 of freedom. It's not like a real fair of freedom. 0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:13.840 It's more of a fair of the risks associated with 0:39:13.920 --> 0:39:18.120 freedom because of the experiences and stuff that they've had. 0:39:18.920 --> 0:39:22.040 Um What he considers the most vital, however, to the 0:39:22.160 --> 0:39:27.600 education system, it's sort of just establishing conscientious out or 0:39:27.800 --> 0:39:36.000 critical consciousness within students, a consciousness that commits to social 0:39:36.160 --> 0:39:40.240 change and human liberation. According to for, the educational model 0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:46.320 can only really be successful if people are radicalized through it, 0:39:46.400 --> 0:39:49.200 if people are able to see the issues in their 0:39:49.280 --> 0:39:54.200 current society, think about them, stew upon them, criticize them, 0:39:54.280 --> 0:39:58.640 compare them, and look at ways to solve them. And 0:39:58.760 --> 0:40:01.799 if they don't about with that sort of critical consciousness, 0:40:01.880 --> 0:40:05.719 then as well, for not. Basically, the education system is 0:40:05.800 --> 0:40:09.000 kind of spinning on top in mud. I find it 0:40:09.080 --> 0:40:12.960 especially interesting that I ended up reading this when I did, because, 0:40:13.360 --> 0:40:16.799 as we've seen in the US, a lot of conversations 0:40:16.840 --> 0:40:21.680 are now attacking anything even approaching critical consciousness. But this, 0:40:21.840 --> 0:40:24.480 you know, who all debate going on about critical race 0:40:24.600 --> 0:40:30.120 theory and this sort of even though critical race theories 0:40:30.160 --> 0:40:34.920 are being taught in primary or secondary education, this attack, 0:40:35.080 --> 0:40:38.640 this full front of attack on anything that resembles critical 0:40:38.880 --> 0:40:44.840 thinking and critical study of history and of the present. 0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:50.640 So in chapter one for makes a case for why 0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:54.719 the pedagogy the press is necessary. He says, a human 0:40:54.800 --> 0:40:58.640 kind central problem is how we a fir more identity 0:40:59.000 --> 0:41:01.920 as human beings. Everyone is trying to reach that sort 0:41:01.960 --> 0:41:04.040 of affirmation, that sort of human identity, that sort of 0:41:04.120 --> 0:41:11.040 human nous um. But oppression and systems of oppression interrupt 0:41:11.120 --> 0:41:15.319 that process. They prevent people from expressing and establishing their 0:41:15.320 --> 0:41:19.160 full humanity. Where they're talking about racism keeping people from 0:41:19.200 --> 0:41:23.719 reaching their full potential, or sexism preventing people or you know, 0:41:24.280 --> 0:41:30.399 sa patriarchy with the whole limitations and such puts upon 0:41:30.520 --> 0:41:35.920 people's sexuality and gender expression and gender identification. One of 0:41:36.000 --> 0:41:39.000 these systems of oppression are put in place to restrict 0:41:39.080 --> 0:41:44.640 and confine and bound us below you know, our full potential, 0:41:46.400 --> 0:41:49.480 and so a lot of that and a lot of 0:41:49.560 --> 0:41:56.440 the you know, cultivation and forging of one's awareness of 0:41:56.760 --> 0:41:58.600 you know, the systems around them and how to operate 0:41:58.640 --> 0:42:02.000 within them. To explain in the education system, and so 0:42:02.080 --> 0:42:07.240 the education system is should be one of the critical 0:42:07.360 --> 0:42:11.840 junctures in which we which our fight for oppressed people. 0:42:13.160 --> 0:42:18.800 There's a sort of dehumanization that it could as a 0:42:18.880 --> 0:42:24.360 result of oppression, whether it be in the form of 0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:32.400 comparing people to animals, as racists offten do, whether it 0:42:32.480 --> 0:42:39.040 be in the form of decreating people to this sort 0:42:39.040 --> 0:42:43.759 of childlike status, which itself is a is a form 0:42:43.760 --> 0:42:48.920 of oppression because the fact that you know, childlikeness and 0:42:49.600 --> 0:42:52.960 youth is considered to be something less than It's just 0:42:53.040 --> 0:42:57.200 another way they where people are oppressed and another way 0:42:57.239 --> 0:43:01.120 in which people are prevented from as certain they're tatomy 0:43:01.200 --> 0:43:05.839 and their humanity oppressors. They tend to treat people as 0:43:05.960 --> 0:43:12.480 objects to be possessed, see freedom as threatening, and in turn, 0:43:12.680 --> 0:43:16.600 oppressed people end up becoming alienated from each other through 0:43:16.640 --> 0:43:18.920 oppressure and begin to see their oppressors as something to 0:43:18.960 --> 0:43:23.160 strive towards for It talks about how they oppressed. The 0:43:23.280 --> 0:43:27.160 whole vision and the whole understanding of what being human 0:43:27.400 --> 0:43:32.080 is is being like oppressors, and so a lot of 0:43:32.120 --> 0:43:34.759 people and you see that even today. You know, um, 0:43:35.280 --> 0:43:40.600 when they strive for freedom, they strive to become entrepreneurs. 0:43:40.719 --> 0:43:43.840 You know, they strive to become business owners. They strive 0:43:43.960 --> 0:43:48.920 to become billionaires and CEOs and all these sort of 0:43:50.280 --> 0:43:54.080 images of what, you know, what being human looks like. 0:43:54.160 --> 0:43:56.560 Because people are striving to be free, and if the 0:43:56.680 --> 0:43:59.440 only way you can get a measure of freedom is 0:44:00.239 --> 0:44:02.719 by becoming an oppress yourself, and it makes sense a 0:44:02.760 --> 0:44:05.520 lot of oppressive looking to try to do that. Of course, 0:44:05.560 --> 0:44:10.279 as Fair himself says, and the oppresses themselves are not 0:44:11.760 --> 0:44:16.040 fully free either, because by denying the oppressed people their humanity, 0:44:16.960 --> 0:44:23.120 they robbed themselves of humanity. The fight for liberation, as 0:44:23.360 --> 0:44:27.840 Fair argues, must consist of two stages. Reflection on the 0:44:27.920 --> 0:44:32.040 nature of oppression and the concrete action needed to change it, 0:44:33.000 --> 0:44:37.400 and that sort of reading that that that line are paraphrasing, 0:44:38.000 --> 0:44:43.360 but it it reminds me of the process of prefigurative politics, 0:44:44.360 --> 0:44:48.400 where not only are you bringing about the consciousness of 0:44:48.440 --> 0:44:53.200 people to recognize these systems of oppression and understand how 0:44:53.280 --> 0:44:58.239 they operate, but the concrete action to change it is 0:44:58.320 --> 0:45:02.520 one that is intended to liked the society that we 0:45:02.640 --> 0:45:08.520 wish to establish in the future. Fare does one um that, 0:45:08.760 --> 0:45:11.759 you know, leaders and stuff must engage in dialogue with 0:45:11.840 --> 0:45:15.800 oppressed people rather than becoming like oppressors. But as the 0:45:16.680 --> 0:45:19.759 book goes on, I think he relies a bit too 0:45:19.880 --> 0:45:24.719 much on this concept of leaders as well. He wants 0:45:24.719 --> 0:45:27.439 against them existing above the people, but he's still sort 0:45:27.480 --> 0:45:33.640 of upholds that distinction between the leaders and the people. 0:45:35.040 --> 0:45:37.880 As the book progresses, um he begins to compare the 0:45:37.960 --> 0:45:41.440 concept of the banking model to the concept of the 0:45:41.600 --> 0:45:46.239 problem posing model of education, as he calls it. In 0:45:46.360 --> 0:45:51.359 the banking model um quote, he the teacher talks about 0:45:51.400 --> 0:45:56.600 reality as if it were motionless, static, compartmentalized, and predictable. 0:45:57.280 --> 0:46:00.560 Where Else he expands upon a topic completely aliens existential 0:46:00.640 --> 0:46:03.920 experience to the students. His task is to fill the 0:46:04.000 --> 0:46:08.120 students with the contents of his narration, contents which are 0:46:08.160 --> 0:46:12.400 detached from reality, disconnected from the totality that engendered them, 0:46:12.719 --> 0:46:16.200 I could give them significance. Words are emptied of their 0:46:16.239 --> 0:46:24.040 concreteness and become a hollow, alienated and alienating verbocity areny 0:46:24.120 --> 0:46:29.480 being that sentence is quite proposed. But on the contrary, 0:46:29.719 --> 0:46:34.080 banking education maintains and even stimulates the contradiction to the 0:46:34.160 --> 0:46:38.760 following attitudes and practices, which mirror oppressive society as a whole. 0:46:40.280 --> 0:46:43.320 The teacher teachers, and the students are taught. The teacher 0:46:43.440 --> 0:46:46.920 knows everything and the student knows nothing. Teacher thinks and 0:46:47.000 --> 0:46:50.480 the students are thought about. Teacher talks and the students 0:46:50.560 --> 0:46:54.680 listen meekly. The teacher disciplines, and the students are disciplined. 0:46:55.200 --> 0:46:58.600 Teacher chooses and enforces his choice, and the students comply. 0:46:59.360 --> 0:47:01.759 The teacher acts, and the students have the illusion of 0:47:01.840 --> 0:47:05.480 acting through the action of the teacher. Teacher chooses the 0:47:05.520 --> 0:47:09.560 program content and the students, who were not consulted, adapt 0:47:09.640 --> 0:47:12.759 to it. The teacher confuses the authority of knowledge with 0:47:12.880 --> 0:47:16.160 his or her own professional authority, which they set in 0:47:16.200 --> 0:47:19.480 opposition to the freedom of the students. The teachers the 0:47:19.560 --> 0:47:23.080 subjective the learning process, while the pupils on their objects. 0:47:24.160 --> 0:47:27.279 I think um Flaire needed to incorporate some more gender 0:47:27.360 --> 0:47:29.239 neutral language and that so I had to kind of 0:47:29.280 --> 0:47:35.439 correct him there. Um. But that quote, that that quote 0:47:35.480 --> 0:47:41.440 in full, it really reminds me, um of my schooling experience. Um. 0:47:41.520 --> 0:47:44.280 As some people may knew, I was actually home schooled 0:47:44.600 --> 0:47:48.480 for the majority of my learning experience, I actually didn't 0:47:48.520 --> 0:47:52.759 know that. Oh well, now you know, Yeah, so I was. 0:47:52.840 --> 0:47:55.040 I was home schooled, um for I would say, the 0:47:55.080 --> 0:47:58.279 majority of my education experience. And then after I went 0:47:58.320 --> 0:48:01.839 into college and stuff. But before then, I did, um 0:48:02.320 --> 0:48:04.640 make it through the school system. And even though it 0:48:04.719 --> 0:48:06.680 was a really long time ago, my memories are still 0:48:07.239 --> 0:48:11.440 crystal clear of that process. You know. Um, I remember 0:48:11.520 --> 0:48:16.320 seeing students being disciplined. Um. I myself was kind of 0:48:16.760 --> 0:48:25.600 a teacher's pet. But that doesn't surprise me. And the 0:48:25.760 --> 0:48:31.640 best possible way, I'm not sure I to take it, 0:48:31.680 --> 0:48:34.960 but I'll take it in a good way because Andrew 0:48:36.920 --> 0:48:46.080 not me. That doesn't surprise me. Teachers or cops. Yeah, 0:48:46.120 --> 0:48:48.360 this is my pre anarchist days. I wasn't you know, 0:48:48.480 --> 0:48:50.920 I didn't. I wasn't jumping out the booth canal with 0:48:50.960 --> 0:48:55.000 a black flag, you know. Unfortunately, a cab includes the 0:48:55.080 --> 0:48:57.000 person who tried to get me to read Catcher in 0:48:57.040 --> 0:49:01.600 the Rye. The Rye was a book and it was 0:49:02.600 --> 0:49:06.720 perfectly fine book. I'm just being an asshole. But but like, Andrew, 0:49:06.760 --> 0:49:09.719 what are you alluding here? Is that, like stoicism is 0:49:10.000 --> 0:49:17.560 something that is weaponized in the education system. Stoicism, stoicism 0:49:18.360 --> 0:49:22.120 being like no emotion delivering like right right, right, because 0:49:22.120 --> 0:49:27.960 I was thinking the philosophy, but because yeah, you're like 0:49:28.120 --> 0:49:31.200 a vessel for quote unquote facts and knowledge to be 0:49:31.840 --> 0:49:35.279 like injected into you for you to like hold as 0:49:36.080 --> 0:49:39.239 as Yeah, it's we're seeing a resurgence in this type 0:49:39.280 --> 0:49:42.399 of saying all the albeit probably a little bit less 0:49:42.480 --> 0:49:47.360 eloquently stated in some of the anti schooling anarchist literature 0:49:47.400 --> 0:49:49.239 that's been coming out in the past few years, or 0:49:49.280 --> 0:49:51.680 at least has been gaining more traction the past few years. 0:49:52.800 --> 0:49:57.719 M Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because this and that's kind 0:49:57.760 --> 0:49:59.760 of that's kind of the funny thing about it, because 0:50:01.560 --> 0:50:04.880 most people in their school and experience can recall it 0:50:05.080 --> 0:50:07.920 being in some ways negative, even if they look at 0:50:07.960 --> 0:50:10.879 it in a positive light, we can at least even 0:50:10.880 --> 0:50:13.279 if they don't go in that fully radical direction. Most 0:50:13.320 --> 0:50:16.040 people can look at some of the elements to their schooling, 0:50:16.120 --> 0:50:18.840 of their education, and so that that wasn't right. You know, 0:50:18.880 --> 0:50:21.680 there's something messed up about that. Even something as simple 0:50:21.719 --> 0:50:24.520 as having to like ask, you know, the teacher to 0:50:24.600 --> 0:50:28.120 go on and use the toilet. It's just this is 0:50:28.200 --> 0:50:32.120 those sorts of little ways of control. So, like as 0:50:32.160 --> 0:50:35.200 I was saying, in my school and experience back when 0:50:35.239 --> 0:50:39.399 I was in primary school, I was very adorable. I'm 0:50:39.400 --> 0:50:44.040 sure I could guess, but I remember seeing these students 0:50:44.120 --> 0:50:48.719 being disciplined. They had the bell had wrung for you know, 0:50:48.800 --> 0:50:50.320 the end of break, and he's supposed to, you know, 0:50:50.440 --> 0:50:54.880 fire back into class. But I think there was a 0:50:55.000 --> 0:50:57.400 school next door that was having some kind of event 0:50:58.239 --> 0:51:00.759 and they're playing like music, and so a bunch of 0:51:00.920 --> 0:51:04.520 students in my class, not me, but a bunch of 0:51:04.560 --> 0:51:07.640 students in my class were you know, um, dancing at 0:51:07.680 --> 0:51:09.960 the side of the school, enjoying the music, having a 0:51:10.040 --> 0:51:13.080 good time or whatever. Um they heard the bell and 0:51:13.160 --> 0:51:14.960 they didn't go because they were, you know, they were 0:51:14.960 --> 0:51:18.799 having a good time. They were like six seven eight um. 0:51:19.960 --> 0:51:23.040 But then afterwards the teacher, after you know, I sit 0:51:23.120 --> 0:51:26.360 down and stuff, leacher goes and finds them and brings 0:51:26.400 --> 0:51:31.160 them in and this is prior to, at least of 0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:34.960 my knowledge, prior to the corporal punishment being phased out 0:51:35.680 --> 0:51:40.239 of school. So I just remember seeing them having to, 0:51:40.320 --> 0:51:44.040 you know, like lay out their hands and receive punishment 0:51:44.239 --> 0:51:48.319 for daring to have joy after hours, you know, daring 0:51:48.360 --> 0:51:51.960 to enjoy themselves. Um what it was supposed to be 0:51:52.040 --> 0:51:56.319 class time and they're supposed to be in class. I'm 0:51:56.360 --> 0:52:01.520 sure people have similar experiences, at least of a kind 0:52:01.520 --> 0:52:05.600 of punishment uncontroul I mean, this is not the same 0:52:05.760 --> 0:52:08.320 kind of punishment, but I think to your point of 0:52:09.160 --> 0:52:13.040 being controlled, like even just like not even being aware 0:52:13.040 --> 0:52:14.480 of it, just like being forced to stand up and 0:52:14.480 --> 0:52:17.200 say the pledge of allegiance. In America, for example, it 0:52:17.280 --> 0:52:20.560 becomes this like repetitive culty thing every morning that you're 0:52:20.600 --> 0:52:24.160 expected to do, and if you don't do it, um 0:52:24.520 --> 0:52:27.719 personal experience, if you refuse to do that, you have 0:52:27.840 --> 0:52:30.279 to go to the principal's office and explain why. And 0:52:30.320 --> 0:52:32.239 it happens over and over again. And I think it's 0:52:32.320 --> 0:52:37.480 like you're you're questioned and you're punished even for like thinking, 0:52:38.560 --> 0:52:43.120 not like differently, or questioning not even thinking, just questioning reality. 0:52:44.360 --> 0:52:49.000 Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And in Syria when I was 0:52:49.160 --> 0:52:51.120 I went to school in Syria when I was really small, 0:52:51.920 --> 0:52:54.520 and me and my sister ate really slow and we 0:52:54.560 --> 0:52:57.600 would get hit with a ruler on our hands because 0:52:57.640 --> 0:53:02.359 we didn't we didn't finish lunch fast enough. Um, so yeah, 0:53:03.600 --> 0:53:05.800 mine isn't that intense. But the school I went to 0:53:06.200 --> 0:53:08.680 when I was a little kid in Oklahoma, number one 0:53:08.719 --> 0:53:11.040 day paddled us. That was legal as a public school. 0:53:11.680 --> 0:53:14.359 But my first grade teacher was obsessed with the fact 0:53:14.440 --> 0:53:17.080 that like it was bad to be left handed, and 0:53:17.640 --> 0:53:19.800 you know, she couldn't. She couldn't do the ship that 0:53:19.880 --> 0:53:21.600 they used to do right. They used to like funk 0:53:21.680 --> 0:53:24.359 kids up for using their left hands. But she would 0:53:24.400 --> 0:53:26.759 every single day like chide me and tell me that 0:53:26.800 --> 0:53:29.000 I should use my right hand to write and stuff, 0:53:29.040 --> 0:53:31.359 that it wasn't like proper, that it was like bad 0:53:31.440 --> 0:53:33.359 that I could if you if you if you're not aware, 0:53:33.400 --> 0:53:35.440 if you're not left handed, when you're like do stuff 0:53:35.480 --> 0:53:37.320 with a pencil and you're left handed, you get a 0:53:37.400 --> 0:53:40.839 bunch of like pencil stuff on your on the side 0:53:40.880 --> 0:53:42.920 of your hand. Right. It's just like because of the 0:53:42.960 --> 0:53:45.320 way that unless you're using like those weird left handed 0:53:46.000 --> 0:53:49.400 notebooks and ship, which no one ever has UM and 0:53:49.560 --> 0:53:51.200 she would like she gave me so much ship for 0:53:51.280 --> 0:53:53.480 being dirty because like I would get stuff on my hand. 0:53:53.640 --> 0:53:56.480 It was just like when I tell people that, it's 0:53:56.520 --> 0:53:59.959 like really, this was like the nineties. Yeah, there's there's 0:54:00.000 --> 0:54:02.000 a few of those folks left. I think she was 0:54:02.080 --> 0:54:05.120 extremely Catholic um and I know none seems to go 0:54:06.280 --> 0:54:08.680 on that stuff. I didn't know that Catholic people cared 0:54:08.680 --> 0:54:15.080 about the left handed thing. Catholic Catholic schools. You yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:54:15.120 --> 0:54:17.360 I wouldn't say that, like it's I don't think there's anything. 0:54:17.480 --> 0:54:21.279 And like the Catechism about not being left handed right right, 0:54:21.400 --> 0:54:25.279 I mean like in some very strict Muslim culture, a 0:54:25.360 --> 0:54:28.160 lot of it is like phased out. But for example, 0:54:28.200 --> 0:54:30.600 your left hand isn't meant to be used as the 0:54:30.680 --> 0:54:33.360 primary hand because it's like a dirty hand, like the 0:54:33.400 --> 0:54:36.920 one you wipe yourself with. Yea, yeah, there's a lot. 0:54:37.000 --> 0:54:40.040 But like I know you were left handed though, yikes. 0:54:40.480 --> 0:54:46.280 Oh yes, yeah, yikes, thank you, thank you. You should 0:54:46.320 --> 0:54:50.759 be concerned. I have to makes a number of things frustrating, 0:54:50.880 --> 0:54:54.800 like shearing sheep anyway, whatever, M well, everything is designed 0:54:54.840 --> 0:54:57.360 for right handed people, for sure like it has everything 0:54:57.719 --> 0:55:01.520 it is you try to but you are the master, right, Okay, sorry, 0:55:03.000 --> 0:55:05.040 speaking of hands just how the curiosity? Did you all 0:55:05.080 --> 0:55:09.120 have the hand up hand out experience? Hand out? What's 0:55:09.160 --> 0:55:14.920 hand out? Basically? Um, it's just sort of a tool 0:55:15.040 --> 0:55:17.480 you su just sort of a sort of repetitive kind 0:55:17.560 --> 0:55:21.320 of follow instructions kind of thing. So like if the 0:55:21.360 --> 0:55:25.120 class getting too rowdies, like hands up, hands out, hands up, 0:55:25.360 --> 0:55:27.360 hands out, and the teacher does not stop saying it 0:55:27.840 --> 0:55:31.200 until everyone is quiet down, and it's just like like 0:55:31.280 --> 0:55:35.480 a robot. Just reason and where I don't think I've 0:55:35.600 --> 0:55:40.319 experienced that. I mean you did, Um, I wasn't an 0:55:40.360 --> 0:55:45.040 assistant teacher at one point, and for very very young children. 0:55:45.040 --> 0:55:47.440 I'm talking like four to five year olds, And I 0:55:47.600 --> 0:55:51.319 understand the frustration of like you're just trying to get 0:55:51.360 --> 0:55:54.440 something done and everyone's going a while now. They just 0:55:54.560 --> 0:55:56.400 had snacks or whatever, and everyone's kind of while now. 0:55:56.520 --> 0:56:01.680 But I think that says about like the methods we're 0:56:01.760 --> 0:56:04.640 using than about the showering themselves. You know, it's all 0:56:04.640 --> 0:56:07.520 about like you have to you should adjust more to 0:56:07.680 --> 0:56:11.920 like their cycles and their needs, their stage, rather than 0:56:12.040 --> 0:56:14.320 trying to force and shove them into this sort of 0:56:14.960 --> 0:56:20.520 like robotic Yeah, yeah, totally. It's yeah, they're allowed to 0:56:20.560 --> 0:56:24.400 actually develop naturally or like be themselves in a setting 0:56:24.480 --> 0:56:28.960 like that exactly. I think what happens that kind of 0:56:29.040 --> 0:56:33.320 throws me is that h people have these experiences, you know, 0:56:33.440 --> 0:56:37.440 traumatic and not as traumatic in the education system a 0:56:37.520 --> 0:56:40.400 lot of people, but some people they come out radicalized 0:56:40.480 --> 0:56:46.719 by it, and other people end up being the like 0:56:46.920 --> 0:56:52.240 most stringe and most passionate advocates of it. Like even 0:56:52.480 --> 0:56:56.560 like this Catholic school teacher you're talking about, Robert, Like, 0:56:57.200 --> 0:57:01.120 at some point she was also in the education system, 0:57:02.120 --> 0:57:04.279 and it really makes me wonder, like what she went 0:57:04.360 --> 0:57:07.719 through to have to come up with that kind of mindset. Yeah, 0:57:07.760 --> 0:57:09.799 I mean I think she'd grown up in Oklahoma too, 0:57:09.880 --> 0:57:11.800 so it must have been a nightmare like everything in 0:57:11.880 --> 0:57:19.880 that state. Yeah, Like why does it have a panhandle anyway? Um, 0:57:21.080 --> 0:57:23.640 I mean, the there is a reason for that, and 0:57:23.880 --> 0:57:30.120 it's not fun, but okay, I'm assuming it's slavery, any 0:57:30.280 --> 0:57:32.920 fucked up geographic thing going on in the South. The 0:57:33.000 --> 0:57:38.760 reason is generally slavery. Yeah, right, right, right right, And 0:57:38.880 --> 0:57:41.440 so she spends a lot of time talking about this 0:57:41.520 --> 0:57:43.680 banking model and we could go on and on about it. 0:57:43.720 --> 0:57:46.080 I spent a lot of time just talking about the 0:57:46.200 --> 0:57:49.280 education system and all my problems with it, and at 0:57:49.320 --> 0:57:52.280 some point I would like to do an episode about 0:57:52.560 --> 0:57:56.520 differ rare schools and out of how those sort of transpired. 0:57:57.640 --> 0:58:03.800 But what FIR proposes um as an alternative is the 0:58:04.040 --> 0:58:12.120 problem posing model, which is basically, through dialogue, the teacher 0:58:13.000 --> 0:58:17.520 and the students ceased to exist. The teacher of the 0:58:17.600 --> 0:58:20.240 students and the students of the teachers ceased to exist. 0:58:20.640 --> 0:58:24.040 So instead of there being these two separate categories, they 0:58:24.080 --> 0:58:30.800 are teacher, students and student teachers. There's no separation anymore 0:58:30.880 --> 0:58:34.680 between the one who teaches and the one who has taught. Rather, 0:58:34.800 --> 0:58:38.160 there's a dialogue between the two as they become part 0:58:38.240 --> 0:58:41.960 of this process where all of them can grow. You know, 0:58:42.040 --> 0:58:50.200 you let go of this sort of authoritarian arrangements and 0:58:51.640 --> 0:58:57.920 allow people to teach and be taught, two learn and 0:58:58.040 --> 0:59:04.840 be learned to a really draw out what it is 0:59:05.040 --> 0:59:08.480 that we have to gain from each other. Rather than 0:59:08.560 --> 0:59:14.280 being sort of docile listeners, the students and the teachers, 0:59:14.320 --> 0:59:18.800 the student teachers teacher students, they become co investigators in dialogue. 0:59:19.560 --> 0:59:26.840 They become critics. They become radicals who are able to 0:59:29.880 --> 0:59:35.200 open up and depathologize the way that reality works with 0:59:36.080 --> 0:59:40.320 human beings exist in the world. Banking education tends to 0:59:40.360 --> 0:59:46.360 inhibit creativity and try to domesticate our consciousness through after 0:59:46.760 --> 0:59:51.040 when I was talking about human investigation the other day, um, 0:59:52.200 --> 0:59:57.080 But in contrast, in the problem posing model tries to 0:59:59.000 --> 1:00:04.800 it really bases itself on creativity and stimulates, rather than domestication, 1:00:05.880 --> 1:00:09.360 a sort of a full flourishing of what someone could 1:00:09.360 --> 1:00:15.400 be unbound and unshackled. So, in summary, banking theory is immobilizing. 1:00:15.480 --> 1:00:22.440 It's it's fixating. It doesn't acknowledge people as people but 1:00:22.640 --> 1:00:27.720 rather objects, whereas the problem posing model it takes people's historicity, 1:00:28.160 --> 1:00:31.840 it takes people's humanity as their starting point upon which 1:00:31.880 --> 1:00:36.320 they can grow and learn from each other. I think 1:00:36.360 --> 1:00:39.440 that's what frustrated me the most about the education system 1:00:39.880 --> 1:00:41.880 in the time that I was in it, and even 1:00:42.440 --> 1:00:44.400 when I got back in it in college, even though 1:00:44.400 --> 1:00:49.200 it's not as bad in some ways, because you know, 1:00:49.400 --> 1:00:53.040 in college they tend to emphasize dialogue a bit more 1:00:53.080 --> 1:00:58.720 on certain classes. But I find the issue is that 1:00:58.840 --> 1:01:02.960 there's this assumption in you know, the earlier sections of school, 1:01:03.000 --> 1:01:06.200 in the secondary school and primary school and even preschool 1:01:06.920 --> 1:01:09.760 that the children, the youth, you know, they're not there 1:01:09.840 --> 1:01:14.200 to have anything to add. They're just there to regurgitate, 1:01:14.320 --> 1:01:19.800 to to study and to repeat what they've studied for approval, 1:01:21.680 --> 1:01:24.880 not just something I definitely did back in the day. 1:01:26.320 --> 1:01:30.360 If what's lacking is dialogue, a dialogue that requires you know, 1:01:30.520 --> 1:01:37.000 hoop and trust and critical thinking, then liberation, you would 1:01:37.040 --> 1:01:43.120 also be lacking. They can't be dialogue without love for 1:01:44.440 --> 1:01:48.600 the world and for people, and for knowledge and for 1:01:50.080 --> 1:01:53.880 bring that knowledge out to people. So as for our says, 1:01:53.960 --> 1:01:56.160 you know, love is at the same time the foundation 1:01:56.240 --> 1:01:59.840 of dialogue and dialogue itself. On the other hand, that 1:02:00.160 --> 1:02:04.080 kind of exists without humility. The naming of the world 1:02:04.240 --> 1:02:07.640 through which people constantly recreate that world cannot be an 1:02:07.680 --> 1:02:11.880 act of arrogance. I remember incountering a lot of arrogance 1:02:12.800 --> 1:02:16.960 teachers and lecturers and stuff in my time. To the 1:02:17.080 --> 1:02:25.280 education system, um are being condescended to multiple occasions, and 1:02:25.320 --> 1:02:31.040 that's the thing nobody likes being condescended to. But condescension 1:02:31.200 --> 1:02:36.520 is kind of the default way in which we engage 1:02:36.600 --> 1:02:43.000 with young people. Just sort of there's this projected ignorance 1:02:43.080 --> 1:02:44.720 upon them, is that they have nothing of value to 1:02:44.760 --> 1:02:49.680 add or to share. Another contrary, you know, we all 1:02:49.760 --> 1:02:52.960 have something to contribute. If we all closed off, and 1:02:53.800 --> 1:02:56.479 if we are closed off to the contributions of others, 1:02:56.600 --> 1:03:00.840 we can't engage in dialogue with them. If we are fearful, 1:03:01.000 --> 1:03:07.440 if we are um considering people to be like inferior 1:03:07.520 --> 1:03:12.480 in some ways, if we cannot embrace people as equals, 1:03:12.600 --> 1:03:15.400 and how can we engage in dialogue with them? I 1:03:15.480 --> 1:03:18.800 think there's a beauty in the way that he reflects 1:03:18.880 --> 1:03:21.240 on dialogue, and he goes on and on about it 1:03:21.360 --> 1:03:23.840 for quite a while. At one point, he says that 1:03:24.120 --> 1:03:28.840 dialogue requires an intense faith in humankind, faith in their 1:03:28.880 --> 1:03:32.040 power to make and remake, to create and recreate, faith 1:03:32.080 --> 1:03:35.120 in their vocation to be more fully human, which is 1:03:35.160 --> 1:03:37.480 not the privilege of an elite, but the birth right 1:03:37.560 --> 1:03:43.080 of all. And so, finally, when he's talking about action 1:03:43.240 --> 1:03:46.000 and how um this sort of change is brought about, 1:03:47.280 --> 1:03:53.480 he divides cultural action into two kinds, dialogical action and 1:03:53.600 --> 1:03:58.040 anti dieological action. While the pressers use antideological action to 1:03:58.160 --> 1:04:02.640 protect their power and to separate people, radicals can use 1:04:02.720 --> 1:04:05.080 dialogical action to bring people together in the struggle for 1:04:05.160 --> 1:04:10.760 freedom as a different methods of anticheological action. Through conquest, 1:04:11.240 --> 1:04:17.720 through divide and rule, through manipulation, through cultural invasion, oppressors 1:04:17.760 --> 1:04:22.440 were able to put the oppressed in the predicament of 1:04:22.480 --> 1:04:25.320 there in. You know, the oppressed wouldn't be the oppressed 1:04:25.320 --> 1:04:27.720 if not for the oppressors oppressing them. That's kind of 1:04:27.800 --> 1:04:34.920 self explanatory. Um. But in contrast, radicals from among the oppressed, 1:04:35.640 --> 1:04:41.760 using biological action, using cooperation, unity, organization, and cultural synthesis 1:04:43.200 --> 1:04:47.440 are able to rise above and push back against this 1:04:47.600 --> 1:04:55.560 oppression and to allow education to flourish among all as. 1:04:55.600 --> 1:04:59.520 I think that's the beauty of the text, um the 1:04:59.760 --> 1:05:04.560 who that it did abuse in people to really bring 1:05:04.680 --> 1:05:10.200 about these changes. And I think it was a good read, 1:05:10.720 --> 1:05:15.160 five outs of five excellent. And it's not very long, right, 1:05:15.200 --> 1:05:17.920 it's like under two from what I yes, yes, it's 1:05:17.960 --> 1:05:23.360 like four short chapters. Rely sure. I know back when 1:05:23.400 --> 1:05:28.080 you were talking about how um people are sectors of 1:05:28.120 --> 1:05:30.800 the right specifically are so set on attacking like anything 1:05:30.840 --> 1:05:35.440 related to like critical theory or critical race theory. Um. I. 1:05:36.160 --> 1:05:39.560 The the book was was banned like like a decade 1:05:39.600 --> 1:05:42.440 and like over a decade ago from the Arizona Schools 1:05:42.800 --> 1:05:48.200 for teaching students that they are oppressed. Uh yeah, that's 1:05:48.440 --> 1:05:51.320 that's how you know, that's to be expected. It's a 1:05:51.400 --> 1:05:58.080 good book. Yeah yeah, so that's anyway, just just a 1:05:58.200 --> 1:06:01.040 fun fun fact there. We can't we can't have kids 1:06:01.160 --> 1:06:07.200 knowing that, uh, they have shared interests as a group, um, 1:06:07.600 --> 1:06:12.000 and that adults are mistreating them comprehensively. That's good. Yeah. 1:06:12.720 --> 1:06:16.400 God just reminded me of so many just moments that 1:06:16.600 --> 1:06:18.840 mean teachers like really got into it or like your 1:06:18.880 --> 1:06:21.120 teachers that were condescending that I hated. I have to 1:06:21.200 --> 1:06:22.920 really go through the role decks and try to vent 1:06:22.960 --> 1:06:29.680 this out. Now after we finished recording, Well, listen, if 1:06:29.760 --> 1:06:33.520 you're a child, why are you listening to this? Rise 1:06:33.600 --> 1:06:38.880 up in rebellion? Uh? Destroy the adults. Their joints are terrible. 1:06:39.040 --> 1:06:42.240 Hit him in the knees. They won't recover. My joints 1:06:42.240 --> 1:06:46.360 are terrible. Exactly, some fucking nine year old whack you 1:06:46.440 --> 1:06:51.520 in the knee with like down, You're out of the game. No, 1:06:51.680 --> 1:06:54.880 I know my kids, my kne would break. Yeah, embrace 1:06:54.960 --> 1:06:59.880 the ancient traditions, make les, and go for the fucking joints. Yeah, 1:07:01.320 --> 1:07:03.320 children of the world, you have nothing to lose, which 1:07:03.320 --> 1:07:25.240 your bed times. That's that's the episode. Andrew, should we 1:07:25.280 --> 1:07:31.040 record this episode? Sure, let's start. I'm sure. I'm sure 1:07:31.080 --> 1:07:33.240 we can use some of that is the opening. Hi, 1:07:33.400 --> 1:07:36.120 welcome to It could happen here the podcast that is 1:07:36.120 --> 1:07:40.880 about medical ethics in the eighteen sixties, not today but 1:07:41.120 --> 1:07:45.480 fair Yeah, no to today today. It's it's me because 1:07:45.520 --> 1:07:49.240 we're long and we're doing an episode about inflation and 1:07:50.080 --> 1:07:54.240 speaking of medical ethics while speaking of kinks. Actually, the 1:07:54.360 --> 1:07:56.400 moment I said that, I was like, I have opened 1:07:56.440 --> 1:08:00.360 myself up for that was some of the phil outside 1:08:00.400 --> 1:08:03.080 That was from some of the first weird interport Internet 1:08:03.120 --> 1:08:05.400 point I came apart. It was specifically the cast of 1:08:05.480 --> 1:08:09.920 duck Tails being like, okay, let's get to the topic 1:08:09.960 --> 1:08:14.040 of the episode. That is, this episode is now about 1:08:14.160 --> 1:08:20.120 duck Tails, inflation, fetish pornography. That is enough, pre rebel Christopher, 1:08:20.200 --> 1:08:23.040 what do you have for us today? Yeah, so we're 1:08:23.080 --> 1:08:28.360 talking about inflation. Um, we're talking about economic inflation. To 1:08:28.520 --> 1:08:31.680 be fair, this is somebody was making money off of 1:08:31.760 --> 1:08:36.800 that inflation. I'll tell you that much. God, I mean 1:08:37.200 --> 1:08:40.760 the one thing duct Tails actually does crossover because of 1:08:40.840 --> 1:08:44.720 Scrooge McDuck and his giant and his giant and that 1:08:44.760 --> 1:08:47.840 actually it does. That's right, I can tell you right 1:08:47.920 --> 1:08:50.160 now that's not the only thing about him that was inflated. 1:08:51.600 --> 1:08:58.640 Oh boy, talking about is dick. Okay, let's let's keep it, 1:08:59.080 --> 1:09:02.479 keep it on tracked. Okay, So all right, all right, 1:09:02.640 --> 1:09:05.760 if people are inflation, it's not good. It's pretty high. 1:09:06.720 --> 1:09:08.800 It's I probably should have looked up the inflation rate, 1:09:09.439 --> 1:09:15.639 isn't it, Like, yeah, I think it's it keeps point six. Yeah. Yeah. 1:09:15.800 --> 1:09:18.400 But every time someone says it's this or it's that, 1:09:18.520 --> 1:09:20.519 people are like, well no, but they also changed these 1:09:20.680 --> 1:09:22.960 these and these indicators five years ago and these other 1:09:23.000 --> 1:09:24.560 ones ten years ago, so really it would be this, 1:09:24.680 --> 1:09:30.120 and there's judging who's securate about that? This? This is 1:09:30.160 --> 1:09:31.800 the thing. I didn't put this in the episode, but 1:09:31.840 --> 1:09:34.800 there's a thing that if you study economics you will 1:09:34.840 --> 1:09:37.960 realize pretty quickly is that all of the like basically 1:09:38.040 --> 1:09:40.240 all of the aconstancy. So we have our fucking bullshit 1:09:40.439 --> 1:09:43.360 and they're like are basically they're they're they're really really fake, 1:09:43.640 --> 1:09:46.240 Like yeah, like we we don't like what one of 1:09:46.280 --> 1:09:48.479 one of the big ones that you know. Is like 1:09:48.600 --> 1:09:51.880 one of the underlying things that makes all economics fake 1:09:52.040 --> 1:09:54.519 is that no one knows how to actually calculate the 1:09:54.640 --> 1:09:57.800 value of of just like a factory. Like like if 1:09:57.800 --> 1:09:59.320 if you have like a bundle of goods, right, and 1:09:59.320 --> 1:10:01.360 they're not the same thing, so I don't know, you 1:10:01.439 --> 1:10:04.680 have two factories they make different things. Actually figuring out 1:10:04.800 --> 1:10:07.360 what the value of that is is like fucking impossible, 1:10:07.960 --> 1:10:11.160 and the like the way that it's done in like 1:10:11.240 --> 1:10:13.720 if if you look at like like there are these 1:10:13.760 --> 1:10:18.599 like the um producer statistical animals, right, and the values 1:10:18.640 --> 1:10:20.439 that are in the like the un statistical animals are 1:10:20.439 --> 1:10:22.800 literally them guessing because because the thing is like the 1:10:23.000 --> 1:10:25.800 value depending on like the actual value of the thing 1:10:25.960 --> 1:10:28.479 changes right depending on where it is, unlike a supply demanker, 1:10:28.479 --> 1:10:31.400 blah blah blah blah. And so they literally just tell 1:10:31.520 --> 1:10:33.560 the people who are doing the econometrics, you just like 1:10:33.680 --> 1:10:36.360 pick a pick a random like price that they that 1:10:36.479 --> 1:10:40.839 that that they think is equilibrium. So it's it's completely bullshit. 1:10:40.920 --> 1:10:43.040 It's it's it's bullshit like literally all the way down. 1:10:43.160 --> 1:10:48.240 It's nonsense. All of the indexes are wrong. Uh yeah, Unfortunately, 1:10:50.200 --> 1:10:53.599 the field of economics doesn't really care about this that much, 1:10:53.760 --> 1:10:55.639 so we're gonna have to sort of take them seriously. 1:10:56.400 --> 1:10:59.000 And the thing I specifically want to talk about today 1:10:59.520 --> 1:11:02.560 was that there was a really interesting paper that was 1:11:02.600 --> 1:11:05.360 produced by two economists at the DC Federal Reserve UM, 1:11:06.080 --> 1:11:09.599 David Rattner and j sim about why inflation happens, which 1:11:09.640 --> 1:11:11.840 is called Who Killed the Phillips Curve and Murder Mystery, 1:11:12.720 --> 1:11:14.800 and which we're talking about this for two reasons. One 1:11:16.400 --> 1:11:19.120 one because it's funny, because I what is going to 1:11:19.200 --> 1:11:21.479 happen over the course of this paper is that the 1:11:21.520 --> 1:11:25.160 Federal Reserve has combat Federal Reserve has discovered Marxism, and 1:11:25.240 --> 1:11:29.439 they are going to attempt to solve mystery of inflation 1:11:29.560 --> 1:11:34.760 by by applying by by by applying marks. And the 1:11:34.880 --> 1:11:36.719 second thing, the second meason I want to talk about 1:11:36.760 --> 1:11:38.719 this is that it reveals something that's very very important 1:11:38.720 --> 1:11:42.520 about the current political situation, which is that both economists 1:11:42.640 --> 1:11:45.000 and like the rest of the ruling class in general, 1:11:45.400 --> 1:11:48.559 do not understand what inflation is or what they sort 1:11:48.600 --> 1:11:50.360 of under kind of understand what it is, they don't 1:11:50.360 --> 1:11:53.880 know what causes it. UM. And before we go on here, 1:11:53.920 --> 1:11:58.599 I should like explain what inflation is because most people 1:11:59.040 --> 1:12:00.960 I don't know the the way I gott talked about 1:12:01.000 --> 1:12:03.439 I talked about about this with Garrison like a few 1:12:03.520 --> 1:12:06.559 days ago about like like the way people get taught 1:12:06.840 --> 1:12:09.360 about inflation is that inflation is when like your money 1:12:09.479 --> 1:12:12.360 is worth less. Yeah, when when the government prints more 1:12:12.400 --> 1:12:15.719 money so to each individual dollar is worth less because 1:12:15.720 --> 1:12:18.360 it's more of them circulating. Yeah. Yeah, and and this 1:12:18.640 --> 1:12:24.560 is like this is this is propaganda. Um, that is 1:12:24.640 --> 1:12:27.599 not what inflation is. Inflation is literally just when prices 1:12:27.680 --> 1:12:31.479 go up. And if you think about it, like, okay, 1:12:31.520 --> 1:12:33.559 that that's kind of the same thing sort of because 1:12:33.600 --> 1:12:35.519 if prices go up, like your your you know, your 1:12:35.560 --> 1:12:40.760 your dollars are worth less money, right, But mostly inflation 1:12:41.000 --> 1:12:44.120 isn't about the amount of money becoming less. Mostly it's 1:12:44.120 --> 1:12:48.000 about something happens that makes things cost more. Um, and 1:12:48.200 --> 1:12:50.000 you know and and likely yeah, like the it is 1:12:50.040 --> 1:12:51.960 possible for you to get inflation because the government printing 1:12:52.000 --> 1:12:56.040 too much money, but like mostly are like symbiotic, right, 1:12:56.360 --> 1:12:58.640 government with more money because prices are going up so 1:12:58.640 --> 1:13:01.559 that people need more money in circulation to buy things. Um, 1:13:02.240 --> 1:13:04.840 you saw this happen a lot with the COVID pandemic. Um. 1:13:05.479 --> 1:13:08.320 So it's it's that both these things kind of feed 1:13:08.400 --> 1:13:11.840 off each other and contributes of But but I think 1:13:11.880 --> 1:13:13.960 something that's important to understand about this is that if 1:13:13.960 --> 1:13:16.720 if you look into the actual econ stuff, like the 1:13:16.800 --> 1:13:18.760 supply of money, like how much money there is in 1:13:18.800 --> 1:13:20.960 the world, has very very little to do with inflation. 1:13:21.000 --> 1:13:23.400 It only really has effects inflation when you're doing with 1:13:23.520 --> 1:13:26.840 like I don't like nineteen thirties twenties Germany or like 1:13:27.240 --> 1:13:29.720 China after World War Two, where just there's literally just 1:13:29.840 --> 1:13:31.800 like you know, the government prints so much money that 1:13:31.880 --> 1:13:33.560 like like my my I have my family has a 1:13:33.560 --> 1:13:36.400 bunch of stories about like literally carrying out baskets full 1:13:36.439 --> 1:13:38.599 of money in China to like buy a train ticket 1:13:38.760 --> 1:13:43.320 because but like everybody knows about buy maur Germany too 1:13:43.479 --> 1:13:46.120 is like the weird arrows full of cash and stuff. Yeah, 1:13:46.280 --> 1:13:48.599 but this stuff that's actually it's really rare, and it's 1:13:48.640 --> 1:13:50.280 like the reason everyone knows. But when it happens is 1:13:50.320 --> 1:13:53.120 that it's only happened. It's happened like four or five times, 1:13:53.880 --> 1:13:56.759 and mostly that's not that's not what why inflation happens. 1:13:56.800 --> 1:13:58.719 And if you look at inflation right now. For example, 1:13:58.760 --> 1:14:00.519 there's the prices of like a whole bunch of stuff, 1:14:00.520 --> 1:14:04.120 from like food to like microprocessors are going up because 1:14:04.320 --> 1:14:06.640 a it's harder to produce things because of COVID b 1:14:06.800 --> 1:14:09.280 our Supply chains are collapsing, and see because Russian invaded 1:14:09.360 --> 1:14:13.840 Ukraine and like absolutely annihilated an enormous portion of the 1:14:13.920 --> 1:14:17.840 global food supply. And this that stuff causes prices to 1:14:17.880 --> 1:14:19.840 go up, right because now it's harder to make a thing, 1:14:20.400 --> 1:14:22.040 And because it's harder to make the thing, that thing 1:14:22.120 --> 1:14:27.080 costs more. And this has you know, this has literally 1:14:27.160 --> 1:14:29.240 nothing to do with with the money supply, right, Like 1:14:29.280 --> 1:14:30.680 it doesn't have anything to do with how much money 1:14:30.680 --> 1:14:33.120 there is in a circulation. UM. And there's another reason 1:14:33.240 --> 1:14:35.040 that that that will get into kind of at the 1:14:35.280 --> 1:14:37.800 end that inflation happens that is not also has nothing 1:14:37.800 --> 1:14:39.880 to do with money, which is that corporations just do 1:14:40.040 --> 1:14:42.439 price markups because they know people will pay for it. 1:14:43.479 --> 1:14:49.160 And that's that's happening to UM. But having an explanation 1:14:49.200 --> 1:14:53.360 of like why inflation is happening is really really politically important, 1:14:53.439 --> 1:14:55.880 even even if the explanation that you have is completely wrong, 1:14:56.880 --> 1:15:01.559 it it allows you you do really powerful things politically. 1:15:01.600 --> 1:15:04.200 On Like, one of the ways that neoliberalism sort of 1:15:04.360 --> 1:15:07.080 took power is that in in in the in the 1:15:07.160 --> 1:15:10.479 seventies and eighties, especially in sort of sort of the 1:15:10.680 --> 1:15:15.880 the seventies in particular, both both in academia and a 1:15:15.960 --> 1:15:19.000 sort of politics written large. There's this problem where you 1:15:19.120 --> 1:15:21.200 have a bunch of these old Keynesian economists who are 1:15:21.240 --> 1:15:24.400 like Kensians are like they're big on like using government 1:15:24.439 --> 1:15:26.439 spending to keep the economy running, and like you get 1:15:26.439 --> 1:15:29.200 a lot of welfare programs. But yeah, it was like, okay, 1:15:29.200 --> 1:15:31.680 you can avoid crises by having the government spending. But 1:15:31.760 --> 1:15:35.160 the problem is that like they couldn't explain why inflation 1:15:35.240 --> 1:15:38.240 was happening in the seventies. Um, And this was because 1:15:38.320 --> 1:15:40.479 the Kenyans working the Kensians are working out something called 1:15:40.479 --> 1:15:42.880 the Phillips curve. And we have to do a little 1:15:42.880 --> 1:15:45.800 bit of econ bullshit. But it's not that complicated. I 1:15:45.880 --> 1:15:49.640 promise I survived it, so it'll be fine. So the 1:15:49.680 --> 1:15:52.720 Phillips curve says that like the closer you get to 1:15:52.800 --> 1:15:55.400 full employment, and like the lower the unemployment rate gets, 1:15:55.439 --> 1:15:58.240 the higher inflation rigettes. And this this sort of really 1:15:58.240 --> 1:16:01.000 starts to kick in around from like five percent unemployment 1:16:01.040 --> 1:16:03.519 to like four percent to three percent unemployment. Uh, the 1:16:03.720 --> 1:16:08.280 the inflation rate like spikes. And you know that the 1:16:08.360 --> 1:16:10.400 reason this is supposed to happen is because the lower 1:16:10.560 --> 1:16:14.680 the lower the unemployment rate is, Uh, wages start to 1:16:14.760 --> 1:16:16.560 rise because as there's lots of people who' unemployed, you 1:16:16.560 --> 1:16:17.880 have to pay them more money to get them to work. 1:16:20.520 --> 1:16:24.040 And yeah, so this is and and the theory behind this, 1:16:24.280 --> 1:16:26.400 right is that like what wages increasing is what is 1:16:26.479 --> 1:16:28.760 what causes inflation happened because it makes everything costs more. 1:16:30.000 --> 1:16:33.160 Now there's a simple and obvious this is like, this 1:16:33.280 --> 1:16:35.639 is a very simple and obvious solutions. So the problem 1:16:35.680 --> 1:16:39.000 of why like inflation happens and like all simple and 1:16:39.040 --> 1:16:42.519 obvious solutions, it is also wrong. The Philips curve does 1:16:42.560 --> 1:16:45.760 not explain inflation. I'm gonna I'm gonna refer everyone in 1:16:45.800 --> 1:16:49.320 the chat to this tweet that I made, and I 1:16:50.200 --> 1:16:52.400 want you to look at exhibit A, which is the 1:16:52.439 --> 1:16:54.080 Phillips curve, And then I want you to look at 1:16:54.120 --> 1:16:58.080 Exhibit B, which is I actually plotted unemployment versus inflation 1:16:58.640 --> 1:17:05.120 in the US from like now seen, and I want 1:17:05.160 --> 1:17:07.600 to get a description of what the second graph looks like, 1:17:07.680 --> 1:17:09.760 because it's supposed to look like a curve. Well, so 1:17:10.360 --> 1:17:13.080 the first, the first graph we have we have an 1:17:13.360 --> 1:17:16.400 excite an X Y graph of the Phillips curve starting 1:17:16.560 --> 1:17:21.200 at eight percent closer to the y axis and then 1:17:21.840 --> 1:17:26.560 swooping down and then flattening out at on the X 1:17:26.680 --> 1:17:31.720 axis for the unemployment rate versus the inflation right. And 1:17:31.800 --> 1:17:36.040 then for the next graph, we have, Um, what's not 1:17:36.160 --> 1:17:43.439 a curve? What is instead inflation and unemployment graphed um, 1:17:44.000 --> 1:17:49.000 except it's zig zagging everywhere like dark sides omega beams. Um, 1:17:49.439 --> 1:17:52.280 it is not, in fact doing a curve. My my, 1:17:52.479 --> 1:17:58.160 my favorite thing about this is that um, like multiple 1:17:58.320 --> 1:18:02.120 multiple like, and this us with both unemployment and inflation. Uh, 1:18:02.200 --> 1:18:04.759 there are multiple unemployment rates that are associated with different 1:18:04.800 --> 1:18:08.160 inflation rates and multiple inflation rates that that are all 1:18:08.280 --> 1:18:12.560 that that generate two different rates of unemployment. It's it's incredible. 1:18:12.680 --> 1:18:15.840 It is it is, it is it is a it 1:18:15.960 --> 1:18:19.479 is an is an absolute sort of monument to how 1:18:19.600 --> 1:18:23.080 much this stuff doesn't work. And there's a really good 1:18:23.160 --> 1:18:26.080 reply to your graft tweet that says economists of the 1:18:26.120 --> 1:18:30.800 modern day court astrologers, it's basically true, like, which is 1:18:31.360 --> 1:18:39.320 funny astrologers, though we're probably right more often that's true. Well, 1:18:39.360 --> 1:18:41.800 I mean they're simply guessing, is it a good idea 1:18:41.880 --> 1:18:44.680 to invade this country or not? Fifty fifty odds it 1:18:44.760 --> 1:18:47.800 works out for you, right if you're if you're trying 1:18:47.840 --> 1:18:51.080 to predict, like I don't know the SMP five D, 1:18:51.320 --> 1:18:55.760 there's a lot more variables. Yeah, and and this is 1:18:55.840 --> 1:18:58.080 this is one of the things that like, okay, if 1:18:58.160 --> 1:19:00.679 if you can be the person who like walks into 1:19:00.760 --> 1:19:04.000 a lecture and goes the emperor has no clothes, you 1:19:04.120 --> 1:19:07.479 can like attain immediate ultimate power because again this stuff 1:19:07.520 --> 1:19:10.599 is like so it's so it's so trivially and easily 1:19:10.760 --> 1:19:17.479 like falsifiable that like I you know, like built in 1:19:17.560 --> 1:19:21.000 Friedman is able to do this, and you know, okay, 1:19:21.040 --> 1:19:23.600 so I actually about false curve, the Phillips curve that 1:19:23.640 --> 1:19:25.240 like I showed you that it's like a curve. It's 1:19:25.280 --> 1:19:27.040 like a very simple one. There's all of these really 1:19:27.120 --> 1:19:32.599 convoluted like modifications to it. Um there's you know, if 1:19:32.640 --> 1:19:34.479 you look like the new the new kynesi En Phillips 1:19:34.520 --> 1:19:36.120 curve or whatever they they've done, they've got a bunch 1:19:36.160 --> 1:19:37.880 of math to it to try to like make it 1:19:38.040 --> 1:19:42.120 kind of work. Um, the problem is that it doesn't work. Uh, 1:19:42.320 --> 1:19:45.000 there's there there's a there's another Phillips curve that's been 1:19:45.040 --> 1:19:46.599 that was like modified, but the NEI by the new 1:19:46.640 --> 1:19:50.200 classical economists and the new classical economists were like, this 1:19:50.320 --> 1:19:52.200 thing doesn't work. Okay, here's some modifications you have to 1:19:52.240 --> 1:19:56.800 put in, but that curve also doesn't work. Uh. And 1:19:56.920 --> 1:19:59.519 you know, and this is a real problem, right because Okay, 1:19:59.600 --> 1:20:03.200 so if if if this inflation explanation of why inflation 1:20:03.240 --> 1:20:07.200 happens doesn't work, like what is actually happening. Um. Milton Friedman, 1:20:07.280 --> 1:20:09.720 who sort of like takes the the economic scene by 1:20:09.800 --> 1:20:12.560 storm by like predicting a lot of the inflation in 1:20:12.600 --> 1:20:14.360 the seventies and like sort of having an answer to it. 1:20:14.479 --> 1:20:19.000 Is his his argument is that inflation is they print 1:20:19.040 --> 1:20:23.160 too much money in there's inflation. And this is kind 1:20:23.200 --> 1:20:26.920 of a gross oversimplification of of what his actual point is. 1:20:27.040 --> 1:20:30.880 But it's it's it's it's more true than any of 1:20:31.120 --> 1:20:34.360 like Freedman's over simplifications. So I'm just I'm just gonna 1:20:34.439 --> 1:20:36.960 believe it at that And this is what the federal 1:20:37.040 --> 1:20:39.599 reserve and like pull Fulker used to try to try 1:20:39.640 --> 1:20:43.240 to fight inflation nineteen seventy nine. Uh. He Volker does 1:20:43.360 --> 1:20:45.320 is he just tries to massively reduce the money supply. 1:20:45.960 --> 1:20:49.360 The problem is that this didn't work like inflation in 1:20:49.600 --> 1:20:52.360 like inflation is still like above temper time. I think 1:20:52.400 --> 1:20:54.720 it's bikes to like like fift percent or something like 1:20:54.840 --> 1:21:01.360 into like nineteen four so and and just based on 1:21:01.439 --> 1:21:04.160 how much larger Huey, Dewey and Louis got sometimes two 1:21:04.240 --> 1:21:11.840 or three. Do you know who else wants? Oh boy, 1:21:13.240 --> 1:21:16.720 that's right, Garrison. All of our sponsors are into duck 1:21:16.800 --> 1:21:20.840 Tales inflation fetish pornography. This is it could happen here 1:21:20.960 --> 1:21:24.320 a podcast sponsored by the concept of masturbating to the 1:21:24.439 --> 1:21:29.080 cast of duck tails getting inflated by bicycle pumps. Oh 1:21:29.280 --> 1:21:35.840 we're back. Well I've done my part. Yeah, so okay, 1:21:35.880 --> 1:21:38.760 So so we're left off right. There's there's a bunch 1:21:38.760 --> 1:21:42.160 of inflation happening. Some of it is happening to DuckTales characters, 1:21:42.240 --> 1:21:44.519 most of it is happening to the economy. Uh. Paul 1:21:44.600 --> 1:21:48.240 Volker has tried to stop the inflation by like making 1:21:48.280 --> 1:21:50.559 there be less money and this has done nothing other 1:21:50.640 --> 1:21:55.400 than like dramatically increasing unemployment rate. Now, the problem with 1:21:55.600 --> 1:21:58.840 again freeman sort of explanation of of inflation is that 1:21:59.360 --> 1:22:01.880 inflation assistance to the eighties and it only stops after 1:22:02.040 --> 1:22:08.200 insert foreshadowing noise here. Uh, Reagan crushes the unions and 1:22:08.520 --> 1:22:12.679 were is to solve inflation, we should stop all unions. 1:22:12.760 --> 1:22:17.519 That is your official position. No wow, okay, but this, 1:22:17.720 --> 1:22:19.120 this is this is part of the position of the 1:22:19.160 --> 1:22:22.760 Federal of the Marxist Federal Reserve. So well, we will 1:22:22.760 --> 1:22:25.160 get there a second. So alright, alright. So, so the 1:22:25.240 --> 1:22:27.639 thing I've been describing that that Freeman is pushing about 1:22:27.640 --> 1:22:30.680 the money's way. This is called monitorism, and monitorism is 1:22:30.800 --> 1:22:33.000 like the fakest theory of inflation, like it's it's a 1:22:33.040 --> 1:22:35.080 it's a theory of inflation so fake that like even 1:22:35.160 --> 1:22:38.680 other like even other like neo classical economists don't accept it, 1:22:38.760 --> 1:22:41.479 like none of the other different neoliberal schools of economics, 1:22:41.520 --> 1:22:42.920 like every single one of them look at this and 1:22:43.040 --> 1:22:45.960 was like this is nonsense, Like what what are you doing? 1:22:47.400 --> 1:22:49.960 But you know, so okay. So though it's like it's 1:22:50.000 --> 1:22:56.439 like the TikTok astrology compared to the neoliberal court astrology. Yeah, 1:22:56.840 --> 1:22:58.800 it's it's it's all. It's like, it's it's it's somehow 1:22:58.800 --> 1:23:00.680 an even faker x when they of this. But you 1:23:00.720 --> 1:23:03.160 know this, this brings us back to like where we started, 1:23:03.200 --> 1:23:05.920 which is that like, okay, so if the monitorist stuff 1:23:05.960 --> 1:23:09.320 doesn't work, and the Phillips curve also doesn't work, Uh, 1:23:09.600 --> 1:23:13.519 what is causing inflation? And the answer from inside of 1:23:13.600 --> 1:23:16.040 the like the actual field of economics is that nobody knows. Um, 1:23:16.560 --> 1:23:20.360 here's Daniel k Rollo, who was the former Federal was 1:23:20.560 --> 1:23:23.639 a former Federal Reserve Bank governor, and was a member 1:23:23.680 --> 1:23:26.960 of the Federal Reserve Board. So he's a he's a 1:23:27.160 --> 1:23:30.479 very very high ranking like guy inside the sphere of 1:23:30.520 --> 1:23:33.759 people who try to apply econ ship and uh, here's 1:23:33.800 --> 1:23:36.479 here's the quote that he gave about it. In quote, 1:23:37.000 --> 1:23:40.360 the substantive point is that we do not at present 1:23:40.520 --> 1:23:43.479 have a theory of inflation dynamics that works sufficiently well 1:23:43.560 --> 1:23:45.519 to be of use for the business of real time 1:23:45.600 --> 1:23:49.680 monetary policy making. So what are you saying there is 1:23:50.439 --> 1:23:51.880 like if you translate that out of econs beak, and 1:23:51.920 --> 1:23:53.360 you don't even really have to translate that out of 1:23:53.360 --> 1:23:55.479 econs much what he's saying is that he no one 1:23:55.520 --> 1:23:57.280 has any idea why inflation works, and none on the 1:23:57.280 --> 1:23:59.720 models work well enough to let you like try to 1:24:00.080 --> 1:24:01.960 deal with inflation if you're you know, the people who 1:24:01.960 --> 1:24:06.560 control the money supply, like the Fed. Now economists like 1:24:06.640 --> 1:24:08.519 we we we've seen in the past, if you've been 1:24:08.520 --> 1:24:10.720 following this off in the past like ten years issue, 1:24:10.800 --> 1:24:12.720 especially in the last five, economists have been getting like 1:24:12.840 --> 1:24:15.560 increasingly desperate to explain what the fund is happening, and 1:24:15.720 --> 1:24:18.800 they're getting increasingly increasingly desperate right now because you know, hey, 1:24:18.840 --> 1:24:21.560 inflation is back, and that that brings us to the 1:24:21.640 --> 1:24:23.559 paper I mentioned at the top of the episode, which 1:24:24.320 --> 1:24:27.439 who who killed the Phillips Curve and Murder Mystery, which 1:24:27.720 --> 1:24:31.240 opens talking about two sort of massive recent failures of 1:24:31.280 --> 1:24:33.880 the like new Kensie and we fixed we we we 1:24:33.960 --> 1:24:36.479 added variables to the Phillips curve until like sort of 1:24:36.640 --> 1:24:40.400 kind of works ish maybe, but you know, the only 1:24:40.439 --> 1:24:42.120 thing they're talking about two of its sort of like 1:24:42.280 --> 1:24:45.160 incredibly massive failures. The first is in two thousand eight, 1:24:45.479 --> 1:24:49.360 where there's you know, there's a recession. Oh really what 1:24:49.479 --> 1:24:53.280 happened economically? A re session? But what's interesting about this right, 1:24:53.360 --> 1:24:54.840 is that? Okay? So if you think about this, there's 1:24:54.840 --> 1:24:58.439 an inflation, is there's there's a recession, unemployment skyrockets, this 1:24:58.600 --> 1:25:02.160 should cause deflation. Well, you know, because you know what 1:25:02.240 --> 1:25:05.080 else happened to us in night the official Duct Hills 1:25:05.160 --> 1:25:09.599 video game came out. So I think we are through 1:25:09.680 --> 1:25:13.240 the looking glass people, you know, I mean this, this 1:25:13.479 --> 1:25:15.280 this is not any more bullshit than any of the 1:25:15.320 --> 1:25:18.679 other stuff they're doing. So like, but you know, okay, 1:25:19.040 --> 1:25:21.360 but there's there's this there's this thing that happens. We're like, okay, 1:25:21.400 --> 1:25:24.479 the like the inflation that the inflation rate should have 1:25:24.600 --> 1:25:28.000 been decreasing and it just stays the same. And economist 1:25:28.000 --> 1:25:29.840 are like what and this is this is called the 1:25:29.920 --> 1:25:32.519 missing deflation ary period. There's there's a second thing where 1:25:33.320 --> 1:25:36.360 dream this sort of like quote unquote economic recovery and 1:25:36.439 --> 1:25:41.760 the last like ten years ish until basically until before 1:25:41.800 --> 1:25:45.280 the pandemic, employment rates dropped really really low, and this 1:25:45.360 --> 1:25:47.960 should have started this year of triggered inflation, but it doesn't. 1:25:49.400 --> 1:25:53.559 And you know, okay, And so the people who run 1:25:53.640 --> 1:25:55.519 the Philip Philips group, like the economist are looking at 1:25:55.560 --> 1:25:57.320 this and they're like, okay, what do we do? And 1:25:57.520 --> 1:25:59.800 the Fed economists. Solution is again and I share you, 1:25:59.880 --> 1:26:03.120 not Marxism, and more specifically, the solution is neo Marxism. 1:26:04.040 --> 1:26:06.800 M Mary. Yeah, yeah, this is this is this is 1:26:06.840 --> 1:26:08.400 this is something else I'm sort of excited about, which 1:26:08.400 --> 1:26:10.479 is that I finally get to tell the world what 1:26:10.600 --> 1:26:12.960 a neo Marxist is, because this is technically a thing. 1:26:13.560 --> 1:26:15.120 It's just that none of the people who talked about 1:26:15.160 --> 1:26:17.880 neo Marxists have any idea what it is. The most 1:26:18.080 --> 1:26:23.040 modern neo marx Actually really well, I mean I guess 1:26:23.040 --> 1:26:25.800 you could have okay, what what once we explain it, 1:26:25.840 --> 1:26:27.720 I will, I will talk about how you could theoretically 1:26:27.720 --> 1:26:29.200 have a post modern neo Marxist. But I don't think 1:26:29.200 --> 1:26:35.760 I ever met whoa how welcome Welltory terms. Okay, so 1:26:35.880 --> 1:26:38.280 I'm excited to hear this. Yeah yeah, all right. So 1:26:38.960 --> 1:26:41.080 what what is happening here is that there's an old 1:26:41.160 --> 1:26:43.240 joke in Marxist circles that like, the most advanced Pushei 1:26:43.280 --> 1:26:45.800 economists is fifty years behind the most vulgar Marxist. And 1:26:46.120 --> 1:26:49.799 this is this coming true. The Federal Reserve economists are developing, 1:26:49.880 --> 1:26:51.400 They're trying to make a new Phillips curve and the 1:26:51.439 --> 1:26:53.280 new Phillips curve is what they call a colleci In 1:26:53.320 --> 1:26:56.800 Phillips curve because it's based for the guys. New curve 1:26:56.920 --> 1:26:59.560 just drops. Yeah, it literally is except this this this 1:26:59.680 --> 1:27:01.439 is this is this is the neo Marxist curve. And 1:27:01.680 --> 1:27:04.080 it's based on the works it's kind of loosely based 1:27:04.120 --> 1:27:05.560 on him, but it's just based on the work of 1:27:05.680 --> 1:27:10.080 a Polish Marxist economist named Mikhail Collecki. And Clucky is 1:27:10.160 --> 1:27:15.200 a he's a very very weird Marxist, like by Marxist standards, 1:27:15.280 --> 1:27:18.839 is extremely weird. And to explain why this is were 1:27:18.880 --> 1:27:20.160 we have to we have to speed We're gonna have 1:27:20.200 --> 1:27:22.600 to speed run Marxism one oh one. So I'm going 1:27:22.640 --> 1:27:25.800 to attempt to explain Marxism in one page. All right, 1:27:25.960 --> 1:27:28.559 let's okay, okay, mark mark markism one oh one. Right. 1:27:28.680 --> 1:27:31.160 You have a worker, she has to go find a 1:27:31.280 --> 1:27:33.760 job and sell her labor to like get food to eat, 1:27:34.240 --> 1:27:37.519 because otherwise you can't support herself. Um, so she goes 1:27:37.560 --> 1:27:39.879 to work at a factory that makes like hospital stretchers. 1:27:40.479 --> 1:27:42.840 Now under capitalism, and this is this is this is 1:27:42.920 --> 1:27:44.640 this is one thing I'm explaining this is this is 1:27:44.680 --> 1:27:47.840 like the this is the orthodox Marxist interpretation. So the 1:27:47.880 --> 1:27:49.720 people who are about to scream at me for a 1:27:49.760 --> 1:27:51.920 million years about how this is wrong, I'm explaining the 1:27:52.040 --> 1:27:59.840 orthodox position. Damnit uh Marxism here? Yeah no, okay, yeah, Chris, 1:28:00.160 --> 1:28:05.479 quick question what what what? What? What was Marx? So 1:28:05.840 --> 1:28:09.800 Marx was a experiment is psychological experiment run by the 1:28:10.240 --> 1:28:18.720 by Harvard University that was concluded in but he wrote, 1:28:18.760 --> 1:28:20.040 he wrote a bunch of books, and one of those 1:28:20.080 --> 1:28:23.439 books is Capital and and in Capital. So okay, so 1:28:23.600 --> 1:28:26.240 you have you have your worker, right, and she she 1:28:26.400 --> 1:28:29.760 she works to make hospel stretchers. And the thing that 1:28:29.920 --> 1:28:33.720 makes the hospital stretcher have value is the amount of 1:28:33.800 --> 1:28:35.960 time that it takes a worker to make it. So 1:28:36.920 --> 1:28:39.920 under under this this sort of understanding of what Marxism is, 1:28:40.000 --> 1:28:42.800 value is just labor time. Right, The value of an 1:28:42.840 --> 1:28:45.320 object is how many hours of work it takes to 1:28:45.360 --> 1:28:48.880 make a thing. Now this labor time or you know, 1:28:48.960 --> 1:28:50.280 like like and like how how long it takes to 1:28:50.320 --> 1:28:53.160 make the thing? Uh, the value of it it isn't 1:28:53.160 --> 1:28:54.560 measured by like how long it takes them like like 1:28:54.560 --> 1:28:57.680 an individual cot, Right, It's measured by like how long 1:28:57.800 --> 1:29:00.600 on average it takes society to make so for you know, 1:29:00.640 --> 1:29:02.439 for example, like you said, this is in Finland, right, 1:29:02.600 --> 1:29:05.240 it's based on how long, on average it takes to 1:29:05.320 --> 1:29:08.560 make a hospital stretcher in Finland, not like you know, 1:29:08.600 --> 1:29:12.439 how long it takes to make him like Olivia or something. 1:29:13.000 --> 1:29:15.600 Um and this is the technical term for the for like, 1:29:15.800 --> 1:29:19.360 this thing is socially necessary labor time. UM. So, our 1:29:19.400 --> 1:29:22.880 worker like works for through her day and after six hours, 1:29:22.920 --> 1:29:25.800 she's produced enough value to support herself. She can buy food, 1:29:25.920 --> 1:29:27.639 she can pay her rent, she can like I don't 1:29:27.640 --> 1:29:29.960 know if you buy a car or something. But she 1:29:29.960 --> 1:29:32.200 still also worked two more hours of the day and 1:29:32.360 --> 1:29:34.559 during that time, the labor that she's doing just goes 1:29:34.640 --> 1:29:37.200 to the boss. And this is called this is called 1:29:37.240 --> 1:29:39.400 surplus value, like the amount of time that you're working 1:29:39.439 --> 1:29:41.400 where you're working for the boss and not to like 1:29:41.520 --> 1:29:45.040 support yourself. Uh. This this, this is called surplus value. 1:29:45.080 --> 1:29:50.519 It is the objective route of exploitation and Marxism. I yeah, 1:29:50.680 --> 1:29:52.559 it's it's it's it's it's the value that goes directly 1:29:52.680 --> 1:29:57.880 to your boss. That and the reason that like your 1:29:57.920 --> 1:29:59.479 boss can just steal this from muse because they have 1:29:59.520 --> 1:30:01.559 the factor and don't. So if you want to produce 1:30:01.560 --> 1:30:03.360 something for them to survive, you have to go to him. 1:30:03.439 --> 1:30:05.080 And this is this is called the ownership of the 1:30:05.160 --> 1:30:09.760 means of production. Now, the price in theory of of 1:30:09.880 --> 1:30:12.240 this hospital structure, right is based on value on its 1:30:12.280 --> 1:30:13.840 value or how many hours it takes to produce it 1:30:14.320 --> 1:30:19.960 um and how precisely you get from dollars as a 1:30:20.040 --> 1:30:24.160 unit of measurement from two dollars from time is a 1:30:24.240 --> 1:30:27.880 subject of an absolutely interminable debate called transformation problem. If 1:30:27.880 --> 1:30:29.240 you want to go read more about it. I have 1:30:29.360 --> 1:30:32.760 wasted probably four years of my life reading about it. 1:30:33.040 --> 1:30:36.920 I don't recommend it. But the answer is you can 1:30:36.960 --> 1:30:38.160 sort of kind of get it to work if you 1:30:38.200 --> 1:30:40.599 funk with the numbers a lot. Uh. But it's if 1:30:40.640 --> 1:30:42.360 you do what's unclear if they mean anything. You can 1:30:42.360 --> 1:30:44.760 also bypass it entirely by arguing that only works in 1:30:44.800 --> 1:30:46.519 the level of the entire world economy. Blah blah, blah 1:30:46.520 --> 1:30:48.800 blah blah. I don't care. If you do care about this, 1:30:49.240 --> 1:30:52.439 don't yell at me. Go read chapter six of Pickler 1:30:52.479 --> 1:30:55.960 and Needson's Capitalist power Palmatics. Theory is critique Fred Moseley's 1:30:56.120 --> 1:30:59.799 Money in Totality and kill Mini mcglare is a temporal 1:31:00.000 --> 1:31:03.360 those system interpretation of Marx's theory of value of Marxist 1:31:03.400 --> 1:31:09.479 value theory. And then google ducktails, go big jennu Wine 1:31:09.560 --> 1:31:11.920 and then send all of that, all of your notes 1:31:12.080 --> 1:31:15.439 on both the texts and the duck tails, send all 1:31:15.520 --> 1:31:18.760 that to I write okay on Twitter, um and they 1:31:19.000 --> 1:31:22.519 get back to please you. You will probably come out 1:31:22.560 --> 1:31:24.200 of like you will come out of the duck yell 1:31:24.320 --> 1:31:26.960 stuff like more saying than you wire doing the Marxism stuff. 1:31:27.320 --> 1:31:30.840 So yeah, but I've I've now covered my basis. This 1:31:30.960 --> 1:31:32.800 is this is this is orthodox Marxism, which is the 1:31:32.800 --> 1:31:35.320 stuff we've been talking about is based on another There's 1:31:35.320 --> 1:31:38.000 another assumption here that's important kind of technically, which is that, 1:31:38.120 --> 1:31:41.240 like so orthodox marks assumed that, like, so you have 1:31:41.280 --> 1:31:42.800 a bunch of sectors of the economy, right, there are 1:31:42.800 --> 1:31:45.640 people who like make different stuff, and the assumption to 1:31:45.720 --> 1:31:49.080 do who make hospital guarantees, people who do more important 1:31:49.160 --> 1:31:52.400 work like make podcasts, yeah, yeah, and and everything in between. 1:31:53.000 --> 1:31:54.680 And the assumption is that, Okay, so you have a 1:31:54.760 --> 1:31:57.160 person who makes like podcasts, right, and then and the 1:31:57.240 --> 1:31:59.320 other people who make costel structures figured out that making 1:31:59.360 --> 1:32:02.040 podcast is more profitable than making hospital stretchers, so they 1:32:02.080 --> 1:32:04.800 start moving all their capital into making podcasts. But then 1:32:05.000 --> 1:32:07.720 because there's too many podcasts, the rate of profit goes down, 1:32:07.760 --> 1:32:11.240 and eventually, like eventually the rate of profit across all 1:32:11.280 --> 1:32:17.439 sectors is supposed to equalize. Yes, yeah, so and and 1:32:17.640 --> 1:32:20.280 this means that, like in the combination of this and 1:32:20.320 --> 1:32:22.759 competition means that prices is supposed to tend towards value 1:32:22.960 --> 1:32:25.960 or like the how much something cost in money is 1:32:25.960 --> 1:32:28.439 supposed to tend towards the labor time socially necessary to 1:32:28.479 --> 1:32:32.320 produce a commodity in a given place. Um, this is 1:32:32.400 --> 1:32:34.839 like the basic thesis of like what you call orthodox 1:32:34.880 --> 1:32:38.479 Marxist like orthodox Marxist political economy, you would probably the 1:32:38.800 --> 1:32:42.200 Marksian political economy, whatever the fun you want to call it. UM. Now, 1:32:43.600 --> 1:32:47.519 in in starting in about the ninet inwenties, there was 1:32:48.439 --> 1:32:51.720 a new Marxism, and this is called neo Marxism. Neo 1:32:51.760 --> 1:32:55.000 Marxism is basic Like I heard about that from Dr 1:32:55.120 --> 1:32:57.840 Jordan B. Peters. Yeah yeah, right now. Now, now we're 1:32:57.840 --> 1:33:00.320 gonna get the inside scoop on on neo mark Exism. 1:33:00.400 --> 1:33:04.120 So Neo Marxism. Their basic thesis is like, what if 1:33:04.160 --> 1:33:07.280 profit rates don't equalize across like betwetween different parts of 1:33:07.320 --> 1:33:10.679 the economy that make things, and you know, and because 1:33:10.760 --> 1:33:12.720 they don't do that, what what if what if you 1:33:12.800 --> 1:33:15.320 don't get competition? Because instead of people being able to 1:33:15.360 --> 1:33:18.200 just freely move capital between like sectors, what if you 1:33:18.240 --> 1:33:23.080 have monopolies? And if you have monopolies, instead of sort 1:33:23.080 --> 1:33:25.840 of price being like a price is just value blah 1:33:25.840 --> 1:33:27.920 blah blah blah, because theyone can keep moving their money around, 1:33:28.120 --> 1:33:30.840 price is now a price. Price is now derived from 1:33:30.960 --> 1:33:34.680 the power of a corporation because if you know, if 1:33:34.760 --> 1:33:36.600 if if you if you're a powerful enough corporation to 1:33:36.720 --> 1:33:38.880 like have a monopoly and stop anyone else in producing 1:33:38.920 --> 1:33:40.120 the thing that you do. Now you can now you 1:33:40.160 --> 1:33:44.080 can charge word called markups. And this is where Michail 1:33:44.160 --> 1:33:50.280 Collecky like enters from stage left um Collecy like he 1:33:50.439 --> 1:33:53.040 probably should have been the father father of like modern 1:33:53.080 --> 1:33:56.040 macroeconomics in the sense that like he invents a bunch 1:33:56.080 --> 1:33:57.960 of the ship that like Caynes does before Kanes did. 1:33:58.040 --> 1:33:59.840 But the problem is that he's writing a lot of 1:33:59.880 --> 1:34:04.479 this Polish and so the sort of like anglophone like 1:34:04.600 --> 1:34:07.439 economists are not reading it because he's in Poland and 1:34:07.479 --> 1:34:09.280 he's a Marxist and he's writing in polo circles. But 1:34:09.320 --> 1:34:11.679 he invents a bunch of the stuff that like Canes 1:34:11.680 --> 1:34:15.200 invents slightly earlier, and he starts like looking at like 1:34:15.240 --> 1:34:17.320 monopoly and oligarchy theory and he starts trying to apply 1:34:17.360 --> 1:34:19.479 it to Marxism, and it's what you know, his inclusion 1:34:19.560 --> 1:34:21.360 is that monopolies are powerful enough that they can charge 1:34:21.400 --> 1:34:24.559 these markups, which is just like additional price increase over 1:34:24.680 --> 1:34:27.400 like what the like value determined price is supposed to be, 1:34:27.880 --> 1:34:30.000 because they can prevent anyone else from selling a thing. 1:34:30.040 --> 1:34:33.960 And then you know, one what what once you have 1:34:34.040 --> 1:34:36.000 a monopoly in the market, you can force people to 1:34:36.120 --> 1:34:38.320 just like fucking suck it up and pay it because 1:34:38.320 --> 1:34:42.160 they can't get it from anywhere else. And this is 1:34:42.200 --> 1:34:44.760 actually this is like pretty similar in some ways to 1:34:44.960 --> 1:34:48.479 like a bourgeois economic like theory of how this stuff works, 1:34:48.520 --> 1:34:50.880 which is like, oh yeah, in in bourgeois economics, like 1:34:51.600 --> 1:34:53.760 monopolies can increase the price over We're they're supposed to 1:34:53.760 --> 1:34:55.439 be in a perfectly competitive market because they have power 1:34:55.439 --> 1:34:58.360 blah blah blah blah blah. But there's something very different 1:34:58.400 --> 1:35:00.920 in Coluckties work that is not in the normal Bushwa stuff, 1:35:00.920 --> 1:35:06.240 which is that what what he argues is that trade unions, Okay, 1:35:06.280 --> 1:35:09.680 so you have a trade union, right, they represented the 1:35:09.760 --> 1:35:13.040 workers who work at a company, and these that these 1:35:13.080 --> 1:35:15.280 trade unions are fighting over the over the product of 1:35:15.320 --> 1:35:19.120 the markup and this keeps the size of markups. Are 1:35:19.160 --> 1:35:21.160 these sort of like these price increases that monopolies are 1:35:21.200 --> 1:35:25.559 doing down because the larger the markup these companies apply, 1:35:25.880 --> 1:35:28.160 the more incentive there are there is for unions to 1:35:28.240 --> 1:35:30.640 sort of like fight for pay increases, right, because okay, well, 1:35:30.800 --> 1:35:34.040 the more expective the goods are, the more money they're 1:35:34.040 --> 1:35:35.960 like very clearly is on hand. And so the larger 1:35:36.000 --> 1:35:39.760 the demands you get from organized labor. And this is 1:35:39.840 --> 1:35:42.760 the insight that who killed the Phillips curve the paper 1:35:42.800 --> 1:35:45.400 I was talking about jumps on that unions fight over 1:35:45.520 --> 1:35:47.720 markups and thus that the strength of unions is part 1:35:47.800 --> 1:35:52.040 of what helps determine inflation. And they point out that 1:35:52.320 --> 1:35:56.000 you know, unions want lower prices and for for goods, 1:35:56.000 --> 1:35:58.000 and the reason they want lower prices for goods is 1:35:58.080 --> 1:36:00.800 that the higher the price is of something, right, the 1:36:00.880 --> 1:36:05.040 less people buy of it, and the less people like 1:36:05.240 --> 1:36:07.200 buy of the thing, the less has to be produced. 1:36:07.200 --> 1:36:10.680 And that means that there's less people being employed. And 1:36:10.720 --> 1:36:12.360 so if you're a union, you want like the most 1:36:12.439 --> 1:36:15.240 number of people being employed as you can. And so 1:36:15.360 --> 1:36:17.080 that means that means that you want you want prices 1:36:17.160 --> 1:36:21.080 to be low, because yeah, that because because lower prices 1:36:21.200 --> 1:36:22.960 means more of the more of the good being produced, 1:36:22.960 --> 1:36:26.600 and more the good being produced means more jobs. And 1:36:27.120 --> 1:36:28.719 this is where we get to sort of the fundamental 1:36:28.800 --> 1:36:32.920 assumption behind the regular Philips drip. And this is also 1:36:33.000 --> 1:36:35.320 true for this sort of like new like pseudo neo 1:36:35.400 --> 1:36:39.880 Marxist one, right, Um, their assumption is that inflation is 1:36:39.960 --> 1:36:44.560 driven by rising wages. And you know, even though the 1:36:44.680 --> 1:36:46.759 unions are trying to sort of like reduce the markup 1:36:47.000 --> 1:36:49.920 and like and reduce markups, reduce prices to increase the 1:36:49.960 --> 1:36:52.160 number of workers, firms are trying to increase prices so 1:36:52.200 --> 1:36:54.080 they can make back the money they're paying out in widges. 1:36:55.160 --> 1:36:57.800 Now when when unemployment is like high, this doesn't matter 1:36:58.760 --> 1:37:01.400 because wages don't rise very fast because there's you know, 1:37:01.439 --> 1:37:03.679 there's this gnormous pool of people who are incredibly desert 1:37:03.720 --> 1:37:05.880 for job, and you can pay them sort of like nothing, 1:37:06.000 --> 1:37:07.519 and they'll they'll come work for you because the al 1:37:07.560 --> 1:37:11.120 turnative is you know, starving or getting evicted. But when 1:37:11.160 --> 1:37:14.479 when unemployment is low, the bargaining power of workers increases, 1:37:14.520 --> 1:37:17.559 and that's that that's that's where the class war starts. Yeah, 1:37:17.800 --> 1:37:21.560 I mean this. You see this in ninety one with 1:37:21.720 --> 1:37:25.880 the screen Cartoonists strike that Scrooge McDuck brutally cracked down 1:37:25.960 --> 1:37:29.840 on um and eventually had to seed seed ground to 1:37:29.960 --> 1:37:33.719 the guild. But Scrooge, Scrooge McDuck was was brutal during 1:37:34.080 --> 1:37:37.160 during this time period post the thirties rise of unions. 1:37:37.600 --> 1:37:40.519 That's right, Garrison, and that's a big part of why Huey, 1:37:40.600 --> 1:37:43.280 Dewey and Louie had to track him down in his 1:37:43.400 --> 1:37:46.160 money room and stick a bicycle pump into his mouth 1:37:46.200 --> 1:37:49.280 while he was sleeping and begin to inflate him largely 1:37:49.320 --> 1:38:01.720 while touching themselves critical support. Louis my boy. So as 1:38:01.920 --> 1:38:04.400 as as as with I don't, I can't. I don't 1:38:04.400 --> 1:38:07.840 even know how to transition that I can't do it, 1:38:08.400 --> 1:38:11.600 but nobody does. I mean, really, the main thing is 1:38:11.680 --> 1:38:13.840 that the concentration of wealth in the hands of a 1:38:13.880 --> 1:38:17.920 small number of individuals will inevitably lead to inflation. Which 1:38:18.040 --> 1:38:19.800 is true. And and this is one of the things 1:38:19.960 --> 1:38:23.080 that um that that that the economist are sort of 1:38:23.240 --> 1:38:26.519 talking about here, which is that like, okay, so once 1:38:26.840 --> 1:38:28.800 once you get an actual sort of once you once 1:38:28.840 --> 1:38:30.880 you get like a real class work going on right 1:38:30.960 --> 1:38:32.720 where you're you're you're getting a class work to the 1:38:32.760 --> 1:38:34.960 extent that like the bargaining power of workers into bargaining 1:38:35.000 --> 1:38:39.639 power of of like capitalist firms are essentially like very 1:38:39.680 --> 1:38:45.280 close to being equal. Um, you get inflation. Now, what's 1:38:45.320 --> 1:38:48.320 interesting about this is that when you have strong unions, 1:38:48.439 --> 1:38:50.120 like when you have strong unions, you get high rates 1:38:50.160 --> 1:38:53.080 of inflation during periods of sort of inflation shocks, right, 1:38:53.320 --> 1:38:55.360 because the unions are sort of like propping up wages 1:38:55.439 --> 1:38:58.280 in this theory. But and this is the interesting part, right, 1:38:59.600 --> 1:39:02.920 you get way lower rates of unemployment. And so it's okay, 1:39:03.040 --> 1:39:04.639 it's just step back for a second. So what's happening 1:39:04.680 --> 1:39:06.040 here is, right, if you have if you have strong 1:39:06.160 --> 1:39:08.400 unions and there's something else in the supply chain that 1:39:08.479 --> 1:39:11.679 increases costs, say to to to to pick a completely 1:39:11.760 --> 1:39:14.680 random example that never happened. Uh, say, for example, you're 1:39:14.680 --> 1:39:16.320 in the nineteen seventies and the price of oil is 1:39:16.360 --> 1:39:19.840 quadrupled in one year, and that increases the price of everything. 1:39:20.560 --> 1:39:22.519 Now when when when you have a strong but but 1:39:24.400 --> 1:39:27.960 this never happens, don't google the oil shocks. Actually, literally 1:39:28.000 --> 1:39:30.599 don't google the oil shocks because almost everything written online 1:39:30.600 --> 1:39:34.240 about the oil shocks is a lie. I yeah, I 1:39:34.320 --> 1:39:36.960 think I've talked about that before on the the other bills. 1:39:37.000 --> 1:39:38.960 Never so, but yeah, it's it's all lie. But but basically, 1:39:39.120 --> 1:39:40.880 like one of the what you know, okay, what what 1:39:41.000 --> 1:39:43.080 What happens here is if you if you have strong unions, 1:39:43.439 --> 1:39:46.040 you get a bunch of inflation, but people don't get fired. 1:39:48.200 --> 1:39:51.080 And when when corporations are strong and you don't have unions, 1:39:51.600 --> 1:39:53.280 you know, you get these shocks and the inflation rate 1:39:53.320 --> 1:39:55.519 is much lower, but everyone gets fired. Unemployment rate goes 1:39:55.600 --> 1:39:58.040 up to like ten percent. Uh. It's you know, it's 1:39:58.080 --> 1:40:02.880 an absolute disaster. So that's that's one thing to note 1:40:02.920 --> 1:40:04.720 about about the way the sort of the Philips curve, 1:40:04.800 --> 1:40:07.720 the sort of Marxian Phillips curve, like analyze the situation, right, 1:40:08.640 --> 1:40:12.240 But there's another consequence here, which comes back to like 1:40:12.479 --> 1:40:16.080 what inflation is under a Phillips curve, Right, Inflation in 1:40:16.240 --> 1:40:19.680 Phillips curve is literally just wage increases. Right, So when 1:40:19.760 --> 1:40:22.240 when union power is weak, inflation stuff. But like, what 1:40:22.320 --> 1:40:25.280 does this actually mean? What it means is that wages 1:40:25.280 --> 1:40:30.160 aren't growing, sure, aren't. Yeah, And and this brings us 1:40:30.200 --> 1:40:31.960 back to like the sort of weirdness we saw in 1:40:32.080 --> 1:40:33.720 the earlier part of the episode, right right after two 1:40:33.720 --> 1:40:35.720 thousand eight, right where there should have been deflation because 1:40:35.720 --> 1:40:38.719 the unemployment rate was really high, and also like junior 1:40:39.080 --> 1:40:42.000 recovery period where ninflation rate is unemployment rate is super low. 1:40:42.160 --> 1:40:44.240 But and there should have been inflation, but there wasn't. 1:40:44.840 --> 1:40:47.679 And the answer is why why wasn't their inflation? It's well, okay, 1:40:47.720 --> 1:40:51.080 because no one had a union and so everyone's wages 1:40:51.120 --> 1:40:53.400 just stayed the same the whole time. I have another 1:40:53.479 --> 1:40:56.120 explanation for this. And when I previously when I previously 1:40:56.160 --> 1:40:57.960 said the Ducktails game came out into that to night, 1:40:58.000 --> 1:41:00.760 I was actually incorrect. Uh. Two thousand and eight was 1:41:00.800 --> 1:41:04.320 when Nintendo Power listed the Duck Tails game as the 1:41:04.439 --> 1:41:07.920 thirteenth best Nintendo Entertainment System game. Um, there was it 1:41:08.040 --> 1:41:10.880 was voted that into thousand night. Now it's important that 1:41:11.040 --> 1:41:13.920 thirteen is very unlucky number. So by voting the duck 1:41:14.000 --> 1:41:17.760 Tails game best game from the NS into thousand eight, 1:41:18.120 --> 1:41:21.600 and they could have basically caused a psychic rift in 1:41:21.640 --> 1:41:25.080 the fabric of the universe, creating the financial crash. That's 1:41:25.120 --> 1:41:28.519 fascinating Garrison, because I was thirteen in two thousand one 1:41:28.680 --> 1:41:31.760 when I came across that angel Fire website with home 1:41:31.880 --> 1:41:37.600 drawn Ducktails inflation pornography. Wait, so this I think in 1:41:37.640 --> 1:41:42.040 a lot of ways. Yeah, yeah, that's all connected. You 1:41:42.080 --> 1:41:44.200 know who else may have been a contributing factor to 1:41:44.320 --> 1:41:47.959 nine eleven the products and services that support this podcast. 1:41:48.240 --> 1:41:50.799 I think that's right, that's right. We do not accept 1:41:50.880 --> 1:41:55.000 a sponsor unless it gets the explicit sign off of 1:41:55.360 --> 1:41:58.719 the King of Saudi Arabia. Um who, if you'll remember, 1:41:59.320 --> 1:42:02.280 did nine eleven and all right, yeah, I'm I'm not 1:42:02.320 --> 1:42:04.439 getting I'm i I am not getting paid tough to 1:42:04.479 --> 1:42:07.680 properly transition this, so I'm not going to. Uh So 1:42:07.960 --> 1:42:10.400 it turns out that, yeah, so the reason there hasn't 1:42:10.439 --> 1:42:13.200 been inflation is that there's no unions. Because we don't 1:42:13.240 --> 1:42:16.639 have unions. Are wages all suck and uh, this means 1:42:16.720 --> 1:42:18.840 that you know, wages, wages are stagnant low, and it 1:42:18.880 --> 1:42:20.680 means that they're not a drive. The unions aren't a 1:42:20.760 --> 1:42:23.799 driver of inflation. And also low wages are driver inflation 1:42:23.880 --> 1:42:28.879 because they you know, like unions aren't around to increase wages. Now. Meanwhile, 1:42:28.920 --> 1:42:31.160 the other thing that this suggests is that monetary policy 1:42:31.200 --> 1:42:36.400 and they okay, I think they're they're in exact analysis 1:42:36.439 --> 1:42:38.280 was like I think like eighty four percent of like 1:42:38.360 --> 1:42:42.840 inflation shocks can be explained by looking at like union density. Um. 1:42:43.280 --> 1:42:45.120 But this also means it means what like monetary policy, 1:42:45.160 --> 1:42:47.080 like how much money there is like in the economy 1:42:47.120 --> 1:42:51.920 has like basically no role inflation whatsoever. And and this 1:42:52.120 --> 1:42:53.599 is you know, okay, so like like this has all 1:42:53.640 --> 1:42:55.600 been sort of one perspective from some economists of the 1:42:55.600 --> 1:42:58.200 Federal Reserve, And we can ask the question, like why 1:42:58.240 --> 1:43:00.760 does this matter? Right? Like why why why? Why does 1:43:00.840 --> 1:43:02.880 like sort of one like group of people on the 1:43:02.960 --> 1:43:06.320 Fed like their response this matters And partly it matters 1:43:06.360 --> 1:43:09.040 because it's again extremely funny to watch the Federal Reserve 1:43:09.120 --> 1:43:12.000 turning to neo Marxists too, like try to explain why 1:43:12.040 --> 1:43:15.879 inflation happens. But it also matters because theories of inflation 1:43:16.400 --> 1:43:19.720 dictate inflation policy. Um. Jerome Powell, who's the chairman the 1:43:19.760 --> 1:43:21.920 Federal Reserve, has had a press conference on May fourth, 1:43:22.400 --> 1:43:24.280 and it's too long to play the whole thing, but 1:43:24.520 --> 1:43:26.800 he has the speech, and he lays out a few 1:43:26.800 --> 1:43:30.360 things that are interesting. So he talks about a bunch 1:43:30.360 --> 1:43:33.639 of stuff that's causing inflation, rights production bottlenecks, increasing crude 1:43:33.680 --> 1:43:37.320 oil prices, concreasing commodity prices from like Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 1:43:37.760 --> 1:43:40.679 Like he's lockdowns and shin another keeping factory like clothes, 1:43:40.720 --> 1:43:42.519 and like, yeah, okay, those are all like reasonable things 1:43:42.600 --> 1:43:45.519 that cause inflation. But then when you get to like 1:43:45.800 --> 1:43:48.160 what the Fed is actually going to do, he starts 1:43:48.200 --> 1:43:50.080 talking about how the job market is too good for 1:43:50.160 --> 1:43:52.080 workers right now and unemployment is too low and that's 1:43:52.120 --> 1:43:54.439 what driving wages up. So he's planning he's going to 1:43:54.479 --> 1:43:57.679 tinker around with monetary policy to reduce wages and decrease 1:43:57.720 --> 1:44:02.080 the demand for jobs. And this brings us back to 1:44:02.160 --> 1:44:04.479 like two things. The first part is just the class 1:44:04.479 --> 1:44:07.400 war part of inflation. Right, Prices are rising right now 1:44:07.600 --> 1:44:10.560 because someone inside, like prices are rising right now, and 1:44:11.120 --> 1:44:13.000 someone inside if if you want them to not to 1:44:13.160 --> 1:44:17.160 like cease to continue rising somewhat some part of like 1:44:17.320 --> 1:44:19.400 the company is going to have to take a hit 1:44:19.960 --> 1:44:22.519 to like the their percentage of like the sort of 1:44:22.600 --> 1:44:24.840 the markup, right, like their their percentage of like the 1:44:24.960 --> 1:44:31.000 price increase of the corporations do above like cost and okay, 1:44:31.040 --> 1:44:33.000 so someone has to do this, And the Federal Reserve 1:44:33.680 --> 1:44:35.960 like absolutely wants to make sure that the person paying 1:44:36.000 --> 1:44:39.400 for that is you, the worker. And the second part 1:44:39.560 --> 1:44:41.080 is something you might have picked up on if you're 1:44:41.080 --> 1:44:43.040 paying close attention. And this has been something that's been 1:44:43.080 --> 1:44:46.320 true of of both like the FED chairman and the 1:44:46.479 --> 1:44:48.640 FED economists do this too, which is they do this 1:44:48.720 --> 1:44:50.960 they talk about inflation. They do this kind of two steps, right. 1:44:51.880 --> 1:44:54.320 They talk about a shock or something that causes prices 1:44:54.360 --> 1:44:56.479 to increase, like you know, a bunch of Ukrainian wheat 1:44:56.640 --> 1:44:58.720 like suddenly being on harvest will because the Russian army 1:44:58.760 --> 1:45:00.880 is squatting on it, or like Chinese factory shutting down 1:45:01.160 --> 1:45:04.880 us the amount of weeder price electronics or sorry reduces 1:45:04.920 --> 1:45:06.680 the amount of wheat or the amount of electronics being 1:45:06.680 --> 1:45:08.640 produced that drives out prices. Right, they talk about like 1:45:08.680 --> 1:45:11.880 there's an inflationary shock, and then they start talking and 1:45:11.920 --> 1:45:14.120 instead of talking about that anymore, they start talking about 1:45:14.160 --> 1:45:16.680 unemployment levels and the job market and monetary policy being 1:45:16.720 --> 1:45:19.040 what drives inflation. And I think this is this is 1:45:19.080 --> 1:45:21.960 a very important piece of ideology because if you look 1:45:22.000 --> 1:45:24.120 at what's going on here, right if if you know, 1:45:24.160 --> 1:45:25.920 if you go back to the seventies, it's not like 1:45:26.040 --> 1:45:28.479 inflation in the seventies is not the Union's fault, like 1:45:29.680 --> 1:45:31.120 you know, the the the in the inflation in the 1:45:31.160 --> 1:45:34.040 seventies was like in large part the original price increases 1:45:34.200 --> 1:45:36.479 because the price of oil country country pulled in one year. 1:45:37.439 --> 1:45:40.840 But you know, but the Fed instead focuses on wage 1:45:40.880 --> 1:45:43.080 increases is what drives inflation, even even if they're sort 1:45:43.080 --> 1:45:45.840 of like using like Marxists to do it. And what 1:45:45.960 --> 1:45:48.439 they're doing here is shifting the focus from the actual 1:45:48.640 --> 1:45:51.960 shock that is like the thing, the immediate thing that 1:45:52.120 --> 1:45:55.160 is increasing prices, and they're shifting the focus from the 1:45:55.200 --> 1:45:57.680 shock to the people who are reacting to it. And 1:45:57.840 --> 1:46:00.200 from there the question stops being about like d link 1:46:00.240 --> 1:46:02.360 with the shock itself and starts being about who's going 1:46:02.439 --> 1:46:05.280 to pay for these price increases, and in the nineteen eighties, 1:46:05.600 --> 1:46:07.960 like Reagan's Reagan solution, this iss well, okay, she's just 1:46:07.960 --> 1:46:10.040 gonna make organized labor pay for it. And so she 1:46:10.160 --> 1:46:13.000 just annihilates the annihilist the unions. He uses the state 1:46:13.080 --> 1:46:15.679 to do it, just crushes the unions completely. And price increases, 1:46:15.760 --> 1:46:18.519 you know, prices stop increasing, right, And they stop increasing 1:46:18.560 --> 1:46:21.920 because the production costs of all of these goods like 1:46:22.120 --> 1:46:24.519 decrease because workers are no longer getting paid and they 1:46:24.560 --> 1:46:28.760 lose all their benefits. But this is the thing they 1:46:28.840 --> 1:46:31.280 never dealt with the actual source of the problem, right, 1:46:31.360 --> 1:46:33.479 Oil prices are still really high to this day, and 1:46:33.560 --> 1:46:37.360 we've never transitioned off oil. And so to look at 1:46:37.439 --> 1:46:40.120 sort of that problem, I want to briefly look at 1:46:40.120 --> 1:46:42.720 another theory of inflation, which is one presented by Steve Mann, 1:46:42.720 --> 1:46:44.160 who I think I've actually had on the show before. 1:46:44.560 --> 1:46:46.280 He's one of the people at Strange Matters, and he 1:46:46.360 --> 1:46:48.880 wrote he wrote this article called Notes towards the Theory 1:46:48.920 --> 1:46:51.200 of Inflation, which is based on the work of a 1:46:51.240 --> 1:46:55.280 heterodox economist named Frederick Lee, who is he's a cool 1:46:55.320 --> 1:46:57.960 guy and all of his stuff is like completely out 1:46:58.040 --> 1:47:01.040 there from the compens from decomperspective of but it it 1:47:01.400 --> 1:47:04.320 makes more sense than most regularly kind of stuff. So 1:47:05.479 --> 1:47:07.600 the sort of like founding observation of like that like 1:47:08.120 --> 1:47:11.840 project Lys basing his stuff on is that like, okay, 1:47:12.000 --> 1:47:15.120 prices are not set by like an abstract market. Right, 1:47:15.360 --> 1:47:17.439 the price of something in a grocery store is set 1:47:17.479 --> 1:47:19.160 by a guy like that there there there was a 1:47:19.200 --> 1:47:21.519 specific guy or they are like several specific guys whose 1:47:21.600 --> 1:47:24.240 job it is to set the prices for the firm. Um. 1:47:24.320 --> 1:47:26.320 This this this theory of like what it's not even 1:47:26.360 --> 1:47:28.839 a theory, like the fact that this is how prices 1:47:28.880 --> 1:47:30.880 are formed by just a guy who sits there with 1:47:30.920 --> 1:47:32.640 a notebook or like a computer. Is this is what 1:47:32.720 --> 1:47:35.240 the price is going to be. This is called administered prices. 1:47:36.040 --> 1:47:38.519 And Lee like very confestently argues that like this is 1:47:38.560 --> 1:47:40.800 how firm This is how both large and small firms 1:47:40.840 --> 1:47:43.639 actually set their prices. Right, a guy calculates his expenses, 1:47:43.720 --> 1:47:47.120 he adds a mark up, and he sets the price. Now, 1:47:47.320 --> 1:47:50.840 Steve Man argues that these prices don't generally tend to 1:47:50.960 --> 1:47:55.960 increase naturally because the price setters don't generally want to 1:47:56.200 --> 1:47:58.680 just increase the price randomly, because if you if you 1:47:58.760 --> 1:48:01.120 increase the price randomly, you will piss off your customers. 1:48:01.680 --> 1:48:04.519 And the customers, you know, okay, they'll they'll tolerate like 1:48:04.600 --> 1:48:06.640 some small increases, but if if you raise the price enough, 1:48:06.680 --> 1:48:09.439 they lose your goodwill towards your brand, and they'll like 1:48:09.600 --> 1:48:11.439 they'll go off and try to find another brand. And 1:48:11.560 --> 1:48:13.840 this is disastrous because even if you reduce the prices 1:48:13.880 --> 1:48:16.000 back down again, like the good will is lost. And 1:48:16.080 --> 1:48:17.400 that's sort of like you know, the sort of like 1:48:17.439 --> 1:48:19.759 happy association that like you have in your brain between 1:48:19.840 --> 1:48:22.960 like I don't know, like Nestly chocolate or something, or 1:48:23.000 --> 1:48:25.760 like whatever brand of things you're buying, like you get 1:48:25.800 --> 1:48:27.400 piste off of them because the price is now like 1:48:27.560 --> 1:48:29.160 way higher. So you know, you don't go back to 1:48:29.200 --> 1:48:32.320 the same like grocery store because that they've increased their prices. 1:48:33.000 --> 1:48:35.720 Now obviously this is like there's like this subject constraints, right, Like, 1:48:35.960 --> 1:48:38.639 if if you need insulin and the monopoly that controls 1:48:38.680 --> 1:48:41.920 insulin production, just jack's the price, You're screwed, right, there's 1:48:41.960 --> 1:48:44.559 no sort of like there's no other place you can 1:48:44.600 --> 1:48:46.560 get insulin unless you're gonna try to make it so 1:48:46.720 --> 1:48:49.040 your your your solutions are you either try to ration 1:48:49.160 --> 1:48:51.599 it and you die, or you pay for the price increases. 1:48:52.360 --> 1:48:54.840 And this this is bad and it does happen. But 1:48:54.960 --> 1:48:57.559 most goods aren't like this, and so price increases, when 1:48:57.600 --> 1:49:01.200 they happen, tend to be small and fairly infrequent, unless 1:49:03.000 --> 1:49:05.479 unless the person that the reason this doesn't this wouldn't 1:49:05.479 --> 1:49:07.479 happen is if the person setting the price has no choice. 1:49:08.120 --> 1:49:10.200 And the main reason that if you're a person setting 1:49:10.240 --> 1:49:12.400 a price, that you would have no choice but to 1:49:12.479 --> 1:49:15.120 increase like the price that that that that you're setting. 1:49:15.360 --> 1:49:17.160 The main reason you would do this because something happened 1:49:17.160 --> 1:49:19.680 to your supply chain. UM, I don't I don't know 1:49:19.720 --> 1:49:21.680 if you all see that. There was a TikTok going 1:49:21.760 --> 1:49:25.120 around from a farmer in Iowa who was talking about 1:49:25.280 --> 1:49:28.960 like why why food prices are gonna keep increasing? The woman, honestly, 1:49:29.160 --> 1:49:32.160 I bless her heart, honestly thinks that food prices are 1:49:32.200 --> 1:49:33.720 not going to go up. She thinks that this is 1:49:33.720 --> 1:49:35.920 the highest they're going to go. I tried to explain 1:49:35.960 --> 1:49:37.439 to her that that was not the case, that they're 1:49:37.439 --> 1:49:40.240 absolutely going to go up even more. Um, And I 1:49:40.400 --> 1:49:42.400 told her there are things that like we have to buy. 1:49:42.600 --> 1:49:44.240 There's something we had to buy that two years ago 1:49:44.280 --> 1:49:46.880 cost is four dollars. Last year was about forty six. 1:49:47.120 --> 1:49:50.519 This year it is costing US nineties six dollars. Okay, 1:49:51.200 --> 1:49:54.160 local farmer fifty had a cattle. It's costing him eight 1:49:54.439 --> 1:49:58.559 thousand dollars a month to feed them. Please understand, food 1:49:58.600 --> 1:50:01.080 prices are going to go, yeah, and so and so 1:50:01.160 --> 1:50:02.599 you can see here what's happening. Is it like at 1:50:02.640 --> 1:50:05.320 some point down the supply chain, prices are increasing either 1:50:05.360 --> 1:50:07.559 because of like climate change, because of the word Ukraine, 1:50:07.560 --> 1:50:09.720 because of COVID, because of like any thousands sort of 1:50:09.840 --> 1:50:13.320 other factors. And eventually the like the farmers who are 1:50:13.320 --> 1:50:15.960 setting the prices, right, they have to increase their prices 1:50:16.080 --> 1:50:19.240 because they don't they don't have a choice, right, because 1:50:19.240 --> 1:50:22.559 because the each person further back in the suppyline as 1:50:22.600 --> 1:50:25.040 a charity, right, like they have to be able to 1:50:25.400 --> 1:50:29.000 pay a bunch of ship builds. Yeah, and and this 1:50:29.200 --> 1:50:31.479 this sort you know that this is the Steve calls 1:50:31.479 --> 1:50:33.120 it like that. He calls it the supply chain theory 1:50:33.160 --> 1:50:35.840 of inflation. Right, and you know in this model, like 1:50:35.960 --> 1:50:39.040 this is what's causing inflation, right, Each person successively down 1:50:39.120 --> 1:50:41.680 the line has to eat has to increase their mark 1:50:41.720 --> 1:50:43.200 up because they have to cover them, They have to 1:50:43.280 --> 1:50:46.479 cover the new, newly increased production costs. And this is 1:50:46.560 --> 1:50:50.720 important because unlike most models of inflation, inflation isn't being 1:50:50.800 --> 1:50:53.519 caused by like some kind of like giant macroeconomic thing, 1:50:53.760 --> 1:50:55.760 like it's not being caused by like unemployment or like 1:50:55.840 --> 1:50:59.320 monetary policy, but it's being caused by very very specific 1:50:59.400 --> 1:51:01.719 micro recon like forces that you know, there are literally 1:51:01.800 --> 1:51:05.280 specific people who as a reaction to a specific thing 1:51:05.479 --> 1:51:10.040 happening that makes production harder or increasing their prices. And 1:51:10.640 --> 1:51:12.920 this is a very different sort of you know that 1:51:13.000 --> 1:51:14.760 this is a very very different theory of inflation than 1:51:14.880 --> 1:51:17.960 like any of the like seventeen mainstream ones, all of 1:51:17.960 --> 1:51:23.280 which are bad in various ways. And yeah, and there's 1:51:23.320 --> 1:51:26.040 there's one other thing I want to mention though that 1:51:26.160 --> 1:51:28.320 kind of isn't talked about in this model, that is 1:51:28.320 --> 1:51:32.800 absolutely happening right now, and that's um And then something 1:51:32.840 --> 1:51:35.479 that is really one of the drivers of inflation, which 1:51:35.520 --> 1:51:38.320 is that corporations are raising prices because they think they 1:51:38.360 --> 1:51:40.920 can get away with it, and they're just pocketing the 1:51:41.000 --> 1:51:42.760 costs and and this isn't So this isn't like a 1:51:42.800 --> 1:51:45.680 sort of speculative thing. Uh. Companies, when you ask them 1:51:45.720 --> 1:51:48.040 about it, are very very open about it. Here here's 1:51:48.080 --> 1:51:52.720 from a Business Insider article. What we are very good 1:51:52.760 --> 1:51:56.639 at is pricing. Colgate Palm of Oil CEO Noah Wallace said, 1:51:56.920 --> 1:52:00.639 whether it's foreign exchange inflation or raw unpacking material areo inflation, 1:52:00.720 --> 1:52:02.680 we have found ways over time to recover that in 1:52:02.760 --> 1:52:06.240 our margin line. We've been we've been very comfortable with 1:52:06.280 --> 1:52:08.360 our ability to pass on the increases that we've seen 1:52:08.400 --> 1:52:12.919 at this point, said Croker CFO Gary Miller Chip in October. 1:52:13.560 --> 1:52:15.559 And we would expect that to continue to be the case. 1:52:15.680 --> 1:52:17.960 And here here's from here's from the Wall Street Journal, 1:52:18.360 --> 1:52:20.200 where more people talk about doing this. We have not 1:52:20.320 --> 1:52:24.120 seen any material reaction from consumers, Procter and Gamble finance 1:52:24.240 --> 1:52:26.599 chief Andre Sholton said last week, referring to a string 1:52:26.680 --> 1:52:29.720 of price increases that went into effect in September. So 1:52:29.840 --> 1:52:33.280 that makes us feel good about our relative position. Now, 1:52:33.920 --> 1:52:37.479 those two articles, like, just those two articles alone talk 1:52:37.560 --> 1:52:40.479 about prices raising, Like talk about companies that are just 1:52:40.600 --> 1:52:42.439 raising prices because they know consumers will pay for it. 1:52:42.439 --> 1:52:45.360 Because I think there's inflation happening. And those companies just 1:52:45.439 --> 1:52:50.040 from those two articles alone include Procter and Gamble, nest LEA, Verizon, Unilever, Colgate, 1:52:50.080 --> 1:52:54.000 Palm of Oil, Coca Cola, Pepsi, Gillette, Chipotle, A, T 1:52:54.120 --> 1:52:57.720 and T, Verizon, Kimberly, Clark Corp, Clarox, Reynolds, Kroeger's, and 1:52:57.760 --> 1:53:01.240 Albertson and like that. That's that's just like the corporations 1:53:01.320 --> 1:53:04.120 in the article that are like specifically named as talking 1:53:04.160 --> 1:53:07.160 about having done this right. And they can get away 1:53:07.240 --> 1:53:09.800 with this because normally, normally write price increases to piss 1:53:09.840 --> 1:53:11.880 people off, they go to go free for brands. But 1:53:12.280 --> 1:53:15.960 if if prices across the board are already increasing, you 1:53:16.000 --> 1:53:18.160 can you can just like do basically like a price 1:53:18.240 --> 1:53:19.960 gouge increase, and you can do and you can increase 1:53:19.960 --> 1:53:22.360 your markup and it doesn't it doesn't affect your goodwill 1:53:22.400 --> 1:53:25.000 because people just assume that inflation is already happening, and 1:53:25.120 --> 1:53:27.800 that inflation happens sort of naturally. Is either because the 1:53:27.840 --> 1:53:29.800 wage like wages are too high, there's too much money 1:53:29.840 --> 1:53:31.800 in circulation, so oh, there's just like inflation happening. Is 1:53:31.920 --> 1:53:35.080 this like abstract thing instead of what is actually happening, 1:53:35.120 --> 1:53:38.400 which there are very specific like they're individual people with 1:53:38.520 --> 1:53:41.800 with names and addresses who specifically increase the price in 1:53:41.920 --> 1:53:45.639 order to screw you. And that that that's that's what's 1:53:45.640 --> 1:53:49.040 actually at stake here, and having explanation for why inflation happens, 1:53:49.600 --> 1:53:52.320 it tells you who to blame for it. Like right now, 1:53:52.640 --> 1:53:55.000 Larry Summers, who was the former Treasury secretary who was 1:53:55.000 --> 1:54:01.160 responsible for arguably responsible for two thousand directly responsible for 1:54:01.200 --> 1:54:03.680 two thousand eight h one of people who completely annihilated 1:54:03.680 --> 1:54:06.800 the entire Russian economy in the nineties. Uh, he is 1:54:06.960 --> 1:54:09.120 has apparently been on the phone with Joe Biden, and 1:54:09.280 --> 1:54:12.240 he is going around saying that in order to solve inflation, 1:54:12.320 --> 1:54:14.720 we have to cut wages, in rage the unemployment rate 1:54:14.760 --> 1:54:17.320 to five percent, like for five years, like on average 1:54:17.320 --> 1:54:19.479 five percent for five years. And so this means either 1:54:20.320 --> 1:54:23.280 five percent of five percent, five years of five percent inflation, 1:54:23.720 --> 1:54:26.120 two years of inflation at seven point five percent, or 1:54:26.200 --> 1:54:29.160 like one year of teen percent unemployment. And again unemployment 1:54:29.240 --> 1:54:30.639 right now is it like three percent? So she's talking 1:54:30.680 --> 1:54:34.280 about millions, potentially tens of millions of people losing their 1:54:34.360 --> 1:54:36.560 jobs in in order to in order to solve inflation, 1:54:36.840 --> 1:54:40.200 because Summers, again, Summers is going back on the sort 1:54:40.200 --> 1:54:42.400 of Phillips model ship, right, where inflation is caused by 1:54:42.800 --> 1:54:45.480 you know, it doesn't even matter what's actually causing the inflation, 1:54:45.480 --> 1:54:47.440 which is a bunch of a combination of price gouging 1:54:47.520 --> 1:54:51.200 and like, uh, supply chage distructions. Right, She's going, Okay, 1:54:51.960 --> 1:54:54.640 who His theory isn't about what is causing inflation. His 1:54:54.680 --> 1:54:56.200 theory is about who's way to pay for it. And 1:54:56.640 --> 1:54:59.120 his solution is, fuck you. You are going to pay 1:54:59.160 --> 1:55:01.120 for it. You're going to pay for both the price increases, 1:55:01.160 --> 1:55:03.360 which the prices won't fucking come back down. That's the 1:55:03.400 --> 1:55:05.560 other part of this, right, Once, once you get inflation, 1:55:05.600 --> 1:55:07.840 and once the prices rise, they're sticky, they don't fucking fall. 1:55:08.840 --> 1:55:11.960 And what he's saying is, yeah, fuck you, you are 1:55:12.000 --> 1:55:13.400 going to pay for it. You're going to continue to 1:55:13.440 --> 1:55:15.360 pay these prices. You're also going to pay for it 1:55:15.440 --> 1:55:18.240 by reducing your wages. You're going to pay for it 1:55:18.360 --> 1:55:21.360 by getting fired. And you know, and this is this 1:55:21.480 --> 1:55:22.720 is the sort of the choice that we have, right. 1:55:22.760 --> 1:55:24.840 It's either we let the ruling class tell exactly the 1:55:24.920 --> 1:55:28.080 same stories about why inflation happens. They've been telling fifty 1:55:28.200 --> 1:55:30.600 years that they know we're wrong, that they that they 1:55:30.680 --> 1:55:32.640 know are so wrong they are desperate enough to turn 1:55:32.680 --> 1:55:34.760 to fucking Marxism to try to find explanations for it. 1:55:35.720 --> 1:55:38.400 Or we find it, we find a new like explanation 1:55:38.400 --> 1:55:41.120 of why fucking inflation happens, and we go back, we 1:55:41.200 --> 1:55:43.120 take the stuff that they've stolen from us, and then 1:55:43.160 --> 1:55:45.040 we appropriate the bastards so they don't do it again. 1:55:46.920 --> 1:55:48.760 And that is that that that that is what I 1:55:48.800 --> 1:55:55.280 have to say about inflation. Yeah, I mean again, what 1:55:55.480 --> 1:55:59.400 what we need to do is if we organize as 1:55:59.440 --> 1:56:05.320 a people and as the people become the vacuum tube 1:56:06.080 --> 1:56:09.640 that we need to shove down the esophagus of Summers 1:56:09.680 --> 1:56:12.520 and other members of the ruling class in order to 1:56:12.640 --> 1:56:17.120 inflate their organs so that their asshole widens and we 1:56:17.320 --> 1:56:23.280 can collectively fuck them until they deflate. Is that more 1:56:23.360 --> 1:56:29.760 or less accurate? Chris? Would you say? Economically? Sure? I mean, 1:56:29.880 --> 1:56:32.120 you know this is honestly okay, I would say, like 1:56:32.200 --> 1:56:33.520 this is the thing that this is the thing about 1:56:33.520 --> 1:56:35.520 having an explation for wine inflation happens. Right, It doesn't 1:56:35.520 --> 1:56:39.120 matter if it's true or not. You can. As long 1:56:39.160 --> 1:56:41.440 as long as you have a compelling enough explanation for 1:56:41.520 --> 1:56:44.600 inflation to cause people to do something, you can, you can. 1:56:44.680 --> 1:56:45.960 I mean, and this this is one of the things, 1:56:46.000 --> 1:56:47.960 for example, like this is one of the things that 1:56:48.000 --> 1:56:50.960 caused tenement to happen, is that there was skywalketing inflation 1:56:51.040 --> 1:56:53.280 and the like workers had an explanation of inflation. It 1:56:53.400 --> 1:56:56.280 wasn't right, like yeah, I mean that their explation for 1:56:56.320 --> 1:56:59.120 inflation had to do with like the like China was 1:56:59.200 --> 1:57:01.160 taking in a bunch of owns and the CCP was 1:57:01.200 --> 1:57:03.840 spending all their money on sports cars and it's like 1:57:04.160 --> 1:57:06.120 it's it's kind of marginal whether it was like true 1:57:06.200 --> 1:57:09.520 or not, but it doesn't matter, right infla inflation could 1:57:09.560 --> 1:57:11.640 be caused by the fact that we haven't fucking inflated 1:57:15.400 --> 1:57:17.720 right on that point. And this is this is this 1:57:17.840 --> 1:57:22.240 is true. You can look this up online. Um So, 1:57:22.360 --> 1:57:27.960 the original Ducktails game from nine was remastered in two 1:57:28.120 --> 1:57:32.640 thousand thirteen, and it was real. It was released on 1:57:32.840 --> 1:57:37.960 August thirteen, two thousand thirteen. The remaster of the Duct 1:57:38.000 --> 1:57:41.920 Tails game thirteen thirteen, both on Lucky Never. I think 1:57:42.080 --> 1:57:44.240 that could have just just as much to do with 1:57:44.320 --> 1:57:47.840 our current economic problem around inflation as basically anything else 1:57:47.920 --> 1:57:52.320 Chris has said here um because August two thousand thirteen 1:57:52.680 --> 1:57:57.280 Ducktails getting released Scrooge McDuck main character. That is too 1:57:57.360 --> 1:57:59.160 much to be a coincidence. Yeah, we are through the 1:57:59.240 --> 1:58:02.200 looking glass. I can see the nords like there's there's 1:58:02.240 --> 1:58:08.240 there's no getting away from this one. Look you all 1:58:08.600 --> 1:58:10.880 you have to do is you just gotta go. You 1:58:11.000 --> 1:58:12.600 gotta show up to the room with the fucking money 1:58:12.720 --> 1:58:14.480 is and you gotta take it from them. Do you 1:58:14.520 --> 1:58:16.040 guys shop up to you kind of show up to 1:58:16.360 --> 1:58:20.200 the factories and inflate your bosses and you will inflation 1:58:20.280 --> 1:58:43.720 will come down. Yeah, it would work. Everybody, welcome to 1:58:44.040 --> 1:58:47.280 it could happen here the podcast about stuff falling apart 1:58:47.680 --> 1:58:51.360 and perhaps how we could begin to put them back together. Today, 1:58:51.400 --> 1:58:54.520 I'm your host, Garrison Davis. We've had a lot of 1:58:54.800 --> 1:58:57.520 doom and gloom the past few weeks here on the pod, 1:58:58.200 --> 1:59:01.000 so this episode we more folks used on the putting 1:59:01.080 --> 1:59:05.000 stuff back together side of the spectrum. We'll be talking 1:59:05.120 --> 1:59:10.240 with Elizabeth Blackburn of the First Collective, a group of volunteers, organizers, 1:59:10.320 --> 1:59:14.760 and activists in Columbus, Ohio focused on direct grassroots action 1:59:14.920 --> 1:59:19.000 and mutual aid, but we'll be specifically talking about a 1:59:19.200 --> 1:59:23.960 volunteer run homeless encampment that's currently serving around people in 1:59:24.040 --> 1:59:28.000 the near east side of Columbus. Here's some of the 1:59:28.200 --> 1:59:33.440 history from Elizabeth. The project started as a warming station 1:59:33.960 --> 1:59:39.120 at the end of January UM and has morphed into 1:59:39.720 --> 1:59:45.520 a autonomous encampment that's largely self governed and managed by 1:59:46.360 --> 1:59:49.760 a loose network of mutual aid organizations that came together 1:59:49.960 --> 1:59:55.400 during the risings. This is this is as flatting organization 1:59:55.440 --> 1:59:58.360 as we can make it, and we're you know, we're 1:59:58.360 --> 2:00:01.160 trying to make it flatter, and I just think it's 2:00:01.200 --> 2:00:04.920 important that the people recognize, you know, going out with 2:00:05.000 --> 2:00:08.320 resources is great, but going out and finding out what 2:00:08.480 --> 2:00:11.960 resources people need is better. There are so many groups 2:00:12.080 --> 2:00:14.760 in our city that are supposed to be doing this 2:00:14.920 --> 2:00:19.760 work that are not, and they're being paid to do 2:00:19.880 --> 2:00:25.560 this work, and it's ineffective. And all I want is 2:00:25.680 --> 2:00:30.240 for for more people to try and do it their 2:00:30.280 --> 2:00:34.040 own way, to try and do what their community wants, 2:00:34.320 --> 2:00:37.920 you know, to the best of their abilities. We've seen 2:00:38.120 --> 2:00:40.680 lots of projects grow out of the mutual a networks 2:00:40.760 --> 2:00:44.960 that were established. It's been interesting to see how people 2:00:45.040 --> 2:00:47.480 in the wake of the George Floyd uprising have built 2:00:47.480 --> 2:00:50.480 off things that started two years ago, what's changed in 2:00:50.560 --> 2:00:54.560 their practice, and how it's evolved since then. This past 2:00:54.640 --> 2:00:58.480 winter in this area of Columbus, Ohio, there was community 2:00:58.640 --> 2:01:01.880 needs not being at people having to be out in 2:01:01.960 --> 2:01:04.600 the cold and not having a place to stay. This 2:01:04.760 --> 2:01:08.240 problem was recognized by people, but unfortunately, far too many 2:01:08.280 --> 2:01:11.800 people just look at problems and just be like, oh, yes, 2:01:12.200 --> 2:01:15.520 here's the thing that sucks. Well, that's too bad. But 2:01:15.760 --> 2:01:18.400 today we'll be talking about how a collective of people 2:01:18.960 --> 2:01:22.120 didn't simply acknowledge a problem, but actually went past that 2:01:22.240 --> 2:01:25.520 point and decided that even with limited resources, they have 2:01:25.640 --> 2:01:28.240 the capacity to actually figure out how to solve this 2:01:28.440 --> 2:01:32.400 themselves and provide a solution for the community. I think 2:01:32.440 --> 2:01:35.600 the first time I really tried something like that was 2:01:35.680 --> 2:01:39.880 in December. A friend of mine had reached out about 2:01:40.040 --> 2:01:42.120 a camp on the south side of Columbus that was 2:01:42.200 --> 2:01:45.960 being swept by the city and they had needs. They 2:01:46.080 --> 2:01:49.280 needed new tents so they could set up elsewhere, They 2:01:50.120 --> 2:01:53.200 needed food and water like they always did, and they 2:01:53.240 --> 2:01:56.960 needed people to be there. Um to keep, you know, 2:01:57.040 --> 2:02:00.800 to prevent violence from occurring as much as possible. UM. So, 2:02:00.920 --> 2:02:05.280 hearing about that, I started a I set up on 2:02:05.320 --> 2:02:10.080 my street in a bougie part of Columbus um with 2:02:10.200 --> 2:02:14.120 a little sign and collected goods whatever people dropped off. 2:02:14.160 --> 2:02:18.080 I collected money. Um. I raised about two thousand dollars 2:02:18.600 --> 2:02:21.760 and uh, I think we ended up buying around twenty 2:02:21.840 --> 2:02:24.840 two tenths. UM got other people there as well, and 2:02:25.000 --> 2:02:26.800 tried to make sure everybody had what they needed so 2:02:26.840 --> 2:02:29.760 they could get set up elsewhere. But that was my first, 2:02:29.920 --> 2:02:32.880 like my first experience with that, doing it hands on 2:02:33.240 --> 2:02:36.600 and seeing that that worked, that encouraged me to do more. 2:02:37.680 --> 2:02:40.760 So that. How has it grown and changed since then? 2:02:40.920 --> 2:02:43.640 There's still a need for people to stay. Um it 2:02:43.720 --> 2:02:47.480 still gets pretty cold at night. Um So how throughout 2:02:47.560 --> 2:02:50.680 throughout winter? How did the project kind of morphin change? 2:02:50.800 --> 2:02:54.480 How do you go about finding like places to actually 2:02:54.520 --> 2:02:56.640 like set up the physical spot, right, Like, that's that's 2:02:56.680 --> 2:02:58.840 a whole it's a whole other problem. Um is all 2:02:58.920 --> 2:03:03.200 like the is all like the logistical side of things, Yeah, exactly. Um, Well, 2:03:03.400 --> 2:03:06.480 we happened to have a space late last fall. I 2:03:06.640 --> 2:03:10.080 was invited to join a collective at first, collective that 2:03:10.280 --> 2:03:15.600 was operating out of a church that largely um falling 2:03:15.640 --> 2:03:19.720 into disrepair, but still operating as a church, and because 2:03:19.760 --> 2:03:22.360 we had that space, a couple of members of the 2:03:22.400 --> 2:03:27.120 collective encountered some folks in the neighborhood who needed a 2:03:27.160 --> 2:03:29.040 place to sleep. They were sleeping in a bus stop 2:03:29.280 --> 2:03:33.640 on a snowy night, and we just decided to start 2:03:33.680 --> 2:03:35.800 giving them a place to stay because we had a place. 2:03:36.800 --> 2:03:40.840 It wasn't a super popular decision, but um, we had 2:03:40.920 --> 2:03:44.640 community back in. Conflicts from some people in the neighborhood 2:03:44.720 --> 2:03:48.800 who were more nimby minded did obviously come up, along 2:03:48.840 --> 2:03:51.800 with the complaints from the church that the first collective 2:03:51.960 --> 2:03:55.800 was operating out of. For the community's part, when we 2:03:55.880 --> 2:03:57.720 were at the church, we were in a part of 2:03:57.760 --> 2:04:01.720 the neighborhood that had largely been gentrified, and so there 2:04:01.880 --> 2:04:07.760 was some some resistance, some concern about the changing face 2:04:07.880 --> 2:04:11.600 of the community and about the safety of kids and 2:04:11.760 --> 2:04:14.840 so on and so forth. But we didn't have any 2:04:14.920 --> 2:04:19.000 real safety concerns, not not in our not inside beyond 2:04:19.080 --> 2:04:22.760 a couple encounters that we had to deescalate um and 2:04:22.840 --> 2:04:25.440 a few people that we had to remove for based 2:04:25.480 --> 2:04:30.680 on their behavior UM, but from inside the church, from 2:04:30.760 --> 2:04:35.120 the church organization UM. The conflict started pretty early on. 2:04:36.120 --> 2:04:38.680 They didn't really like how we operated, and we got 2:04:38.760 --> 2:04:42.720 a reputation as a warming space with no rules, and 2:04:42.880 --> 2:04:46.440 so they felt like because couples could sleep next to 2:04:46.520 --> 2:04:49.280 each other, UM, because people could go outside for a 2:04:49.360 --> 2:04:52.040 cigarette at night, because they weren't locked in the building, 2:04:52.840 --> 2:04:57.120 that we were running a space that was out of control. 2:04:57.920 --> 2:05:02.120 Well until we were kicked out of the church on 2:05:02.800 --> 2:05:06.560 March twenty nine. I think it was the physical infrastructure 2:05:06.680 --> 2:05:08.680 was there. It was just a matter of getting caughts 2:05:08.840 --> 2:05:12.560 and blankets and making sure that people had food. Most 2:05:12.600 --> 2:05:16.560 of that was either through just one off donations to 2:05:16.680 --> 2:05:19.360 my cash app or I bought it with my own 2:05:19.440 --> 2:05:23.520 funds UM. Once we were forced to move outside, it 2:05:23.640 --> 2:05:27.400 got a lot more complicated UM because at that point 2:05:27.600 --> 2:05:29.960 we didn't have any tents UM. We had to go 2:05:30.080 --> 2:05:34.040 out that night and purchase. The day that we were removed, 2:05:34.120 --> 2:05:35.640 we had to go out and purchase I believed ten 2:05:35.760 --> 2:05:39.280 tents to start and then had a couple dropped off UM. 2:05:39.800 --> 2:05:44.200 We now held around twenty tents UM. A lot of 2:05:44.280 --> 2:05:48.000 those were purchased by by me or by donations that 2:05:48.080 --> 2:05:52.080 we received UM or had been dropped off by by 2:05:52.160 --> 2:05:56.000 friends or people in the neighborhood. UM that has been 2:05:56.160 --> 2:05:59.200 you know, the physical infrastructure is mostly tents and canopies, 2:05:59.440 --> 2:06:04.040 and most of them are being held up by pieces 2:06:04.120 --> 2:06:08.240 of old tents or large tree limbs or whatever we 2:06:08.360 --> 2:06:11.400 can to survive the wind, because it's been nothing but 2:06:11.480 --> 2:06:15.640 windstorms for the past well since we got here. Our 2:06:15.760 --> 2:06:18.680 first camp site was set up on a lot that 2:06:18.840 --> 2:06:22.560 was connected to the farm four Seasons City Farm UM. 2:06:22.800 --> 2:06:27.640 Several of the members of the collective are former paid 2:06:27.680 --> 2:06:31.680 employees of the farm or multi year volunteers. It's a 2:06:32.440 --> 2:06:34.960 it's a large organization on this part in this part 2:06:35.000 --> 2:06:38.600 of the town UM Old Town East UM, with about 2:06:38.760 --> 2:06:44.040 fifteen I believe years of history and goodwill UM. So 2:06:44.160 --> 2:06:46.640 we set up next to their lot. But because they're 2:06:46.680 --> 2:06:49.680 on land bank land, we we didn't want to interfere 2:06:49.800 --> 2:06:54.200 with their lease with the city. So rather than risk 2:06:54.320 --> 2:06:59.160 the farm getting fined or UM having having their least broken, 2:07:00.080 --> 2:07:04.160 we we look next door to a lot on the 2:07:04.240 --> 2:07:07.240 other side of a chain length fence m two lots actually, 2:07:07.960 --> 2:07:10.360 one is owned by the city. That's the one where 2:07:10.400 --> 2:07:13.160 most of our tents are and then one is owned 2:07:13.240 --> 2:07:18.120 by a private owner who's a rather wealthy person in 2:07:18.160 --> 2:07:21.920 the neighborhood. UM. We've done our best to stay on 2:07:21.960 --> 2:07:24.960 the city lot and that has been good for us. 2:07:25.080 --> 2:07:28.600 But we're also maintaining both lots and doing our best 2:07:28.680 --> 2:07:32.560 to keep the trash to a minimum UM to make 2:07:32.600 --> 2:07:35.240 sure that we're not tearying up the ground as much 2:07:35.280 --> 2:07:37.120 as we can, though it's hard with all this rain, 2:07:38.360 --> 2:07:40.560 h and and just do our best to be good 2:07:40.600 --> 2:07:43.720 neighbors UM and I think that has helped us a lot. 2:07:44.800 --> 2:07:49.240 In recent years, lower class Columbus area residents lost twenty 2:07:49.360 --> 2:07:53.480 thousand units of housing due to unaffordable spiking rent prices 2:07:54.320 --> 2:07:57.960 and annual point in time tally this year organized by 2:07:58.360 --> 2:08:01.280 the Community Shelter Board on the number of homeless people 2:08:01.440 --> 2:08:05.960 in official Columbus and Franklin County emergency shelters increased by 2:08:06.040 --> 2:08:10.560 more than two hundred people since one and online data 2:08:10.640 --> 2:08:13.800 from the Shelter Board of a nonprofit organization that receives 2:08:13.840 --> 2:08:17.320 funding from the City of Columbus and other organizations, indicates 2:08:17.400 --> 2:08:21.360 that as of March, there was a seven percent drop 2:08:21.520 --> 2:08:24.560 in the rate of people exiting their program and moving 2:08:24.640 --> 2:08:28.040 into stable housing as compared to last year, going from 2:08:28.080 --> 2:08:31.880 thirty three percent to twenty six A lot of times 2:08:32.120 --> 2:08:35.520 more formalized shelters are not ideal for people to stay in. 2:08:36.080 --> 2:08:39.640 There's many issues with the formalized shelters regarding the specific 2:08:39.760 --> 2:08:42.200 rules of when you can get inside, how long you 2:08:42.280 --> 2:08:45.600 can be inside, whether you're locked inside the building, what 2:08:45.880 --> 2:08:48.960 stuff you can bring with you. At best, they are 2:08:49.120 --> 2:08:53.080 challenging to navigate. At worst, they're simply hostile to people 2:08:53.280 --> 2:08:57.040 looking for shelter. I asked Elizabeth what her take on 2:08:57.160 --> 2:09:00.240 the homeless shelter situation is like in Columbus and the 2:09:00.320 --> 2:09:04.040 ways their encampment is different from the more official shelters. 2:09:04.760 --> 2:09:07.240 We have limited beds, and then the beds that are 2:09:07.280 --> 2:09:12.800 available are mostly under the governance of the Shelter Board, 2:09:13.560 --> 2:09:16.720 and the shelter Board wasn't too fond of us either 2:09:17.680 --> 2:09:22.600 because we weren't following all their rules. And there are 2:09:22.600 --> 2:09:24.960 a lot of concerns about the way the shelters run. 2:09:25.520 --> 2:09:27.960 The people that stay with us, the people that come through, 2:09:29.560 --> 2:09:34.920 they feel safer here. Um there's considerably less drug use. 2:09:35.680 --> 2:09:39.360 There's basically no distribution. We try to keep a handle 2:09:39.440 --> 2:09:42.240 on that because it you know, would bring problems to 2:09:42.320 --> 2:09:45.160 the camp should it happen there. Um, we are a 2:09:45.240 --> 2:09:48.920 safe use space. We do have harm reduction materials and 2:09:48.960 --> 2:09:51.800 they know that, UM, and we we do our best 2:09:51.920 --> 2:09:53.960 to you know, just make sure that people have the 2:09:54.040 --> 2:09:57.160 care and the safety that they need. And that is 2:09:57.240 --> 2:09:59.040 kind of a dirty word. While all of those are 2:09:59.120 --> 2:10:05.600 kind of dirty words. And the shelter organizing community, I guess, 2:10:05.920 --> 2:10:11.440 UM care and and you know, making people comfortable, it's 2:10:11.480 --> 2:10:16.000 just not really the goal. Next I asked about what 2:10:16.240 --> 2:10:20.080 types of connections the encampment and First Collective have been 2:10:20.160 --> 2:10:24.839 making with various organizations for infrastructural support or daily needs, 2:10:25.360 --> 2:10:28.480 as well as inquiring about the relations the camp has 2:10:28.560 --> 2:10:32.920 with the city government. Here is Elizabeth's response. Really reached 2:10:32.960 --> 2:10:37.480 out to the different you know, harm reduction groups, the 2:10:37.640 --> 2:10:45.600 different houselessness groups that the emergency action groups, UH, different 2:10:45.720 --> 2:10:49.480 serve groups, and we just asked them to bring what 2:10:49.560 --> 2:10:52.320 they could or to send people if they could, just 2:10:53.320 --> 2:10:56.800 you know, whatever they could spare. And and it's worked. UM. 2:10:57.080 --> 2:11:00.840 People show up with whatever they have to offer. UM 2:11:01.200 --> 2:11:04.640 from all over the city and and just from around 2:11:04.680 --> 2:11:08.680 the corner, which has been wonderful that the grassroots community 2:11:08.720 --> 2:11:11.640 support is just blowing my mind. I thought they were 2:11:11.680 --> 2:11:14.400 going to hate us, and here we are like making 2:11:14.440 --> 2:11:17.760 friends with everybody. Our first goal is to make sure 2:11:17.840 --> 2:11:21.040 that we've met people's needs as best we can. Um. 2:11:21.680 --> 2:11:25.920 You know that that involves right now, UM, keeping propane 2:11:26.160 --> 2:11:28.760 on site so that they can cook some of the 2:11:28.800 --> 2:11:31.680 food that's brought. Um. We get a lot of prepared meals, 2:11:31.720 --> 2:11:34.480 but we also get a lot of ingredients, and there 2:11:34.520 --> 2:11:37.480 are quite a few people here that cook and have 2:11:38.560 --> 2:11:42.160 done pretty miraculous things with a couple of propane girls. Um. 2:11:42.840 --> 2:11:46.000 We try and have meals prepared every day, but it 2:11:46.080 --> 2:11:48.480 doesn't doesn't always work out, and sometimes we fill the 2:11:48.520 --> 2:11:53.480 gaps with little Caesar's or or something else, um whatever 2:11:53.640 --> 2:11:56.160 whatever it can be scraunged up at the last minute. 2:11:57.360 --> 2:12:00.520 Some of our biggest allies so far have been and um, 2:12:01.120 --> 2:12:05.840 the local food not bombs. Uh, they've been wonderful, as 2:12:05.880 --> 2:12:11.920 well as some different church groups that that run nonprofits 2:12:11.960 --> 2:12:14.800 like Community Kitchen. We got our meals provided six days 2:12:14.800 --> 2:12:17.720 a week by church that's basically down the street and 2:12:17.760 --> 2:12:20.400 around the corner. But as far as the city goes. 2:12:20.960 --> 2:12:22.760 For the first couple of days, there were a lot 2:12:22.840 --> 2:12:28.280 of roll bys um, a lot of city officials taking pictures, 2:12:28.520 --> 2:12:31.240 no one really talking to us, but you know, there 2:12:31.360 --> 2:12:36.960 was clearly concern. It wasn't until a man who works 2:12:37.000 --> 2:12:40.280 for the city and outreach under the Safety and Security Department, 2:12:40.600 --> 2:12:45.280 Sean Stevenson, came out and talked to us. Uh that 2:12:45.520 --> 2:12:48.840 we really started to see the possibilities of working with 2:12:48.960 --> 2:12:51.640 the city and in so much as they let us. 2:12:52.440 --> 2:12:57.280 He brought a city attorney, Steve Dunbar, and a gentleman 2:12:57.360 --> 2:13:01.280 from the mayor's office, UM, Jason jim Ends by Q 2:13:01.520 --> 2:13:07.680 talk to our folks, and they listened. They listened to 2:13:07.760 --> 2:13:10.320 the people at the camp, who explained to them why 2:13:10.360 --> 2:13:13.320 they were here, explained to them why the resources that 2:13:13.400 --> 2:13:16.440 are available didn't work for them. You know, it was 2:13:16.640 --> 2:13:22.160 a it was a tearful conversation and since then they've 2:13:22.360 --> 2:13:25.760 largely left us alone. UM. We wish that they would 2:13:25.760 --> 2:13:27.960 provide some of the resources that they talked about, like 2:13:28.160 --> 2:13:32.040 a couple of porta potties and a dumpster, but you know, 2:13:32.160 --> 2:13:35.080 we we do our best or their composting toilet and 2:13:36.200 --> 2:13:40.480 the good grace of some very kind neighbors. Police raids 2:13:40.560 --> 2:13:44.080 and sweeps are always an existential fear for those living 2:13:44.160 --> 2:13:48.280 in diway encampments. Here's what Elizabeth had to say about 2:13:48.360 --> 2:13:53.680 sweeps and police interactions. What we've been told is that 2:13:54.760 --> 2:13:57.920 they are They've been told to leave us alone. We've 2:13:57.960 --> 2:14:00.520 heard this from the cops themselves. We heard this from 2:14:00.560 --> 2:14:03.680 people who have talked to them. UM. But the precinct 2:14:03.840 --> 2:14:06.760 that is in this area has been told not to 2:14:07.240 --> 2:14:10.200 mess with us unless there is a violent conflict. The 2:14:10.320 --> 2:14:14.800 thing to do prop stuff at. There are a lot 2:14:14.880 --> 2:14:17.720 of sweeps that have been threatened around the city of 2:14:17.840 --> 2:14:23.160 different camps. UM. They've received notice or notice of notice, 2:14:23.320 --> 2:14:25.720 so they don't know exactly when, but it's supposed to 2:14:25.760 --> 2:14:30.640 happen sometime. UM. But as far as we're concerned, we 2:14:31.040 --> 2:14:34.960 haven't really had that problem. UM crops have come through. 2:14:35.680 --> 2:14:37.960 There are a couple of times when they've been called 2:14:38.080 --> 2:14:43.960 by by people disgruntled residents or um by neighbors, but 2:14:44.840 --> 2:14:47.640 for the most part, they talked to us and then 2:14:47.680 --> 2:14:51.160 they leave. We we do our best as volunteers to 2:14:51.720 --> 2:14:55.800 get between the police and other other groups that come 2:14:55.840 --> 2:14:58.880 out UM, even even the outreach groups that we know 2:14:59.200 --> 2:15:02.560 are are here to help, just because those interactions can 2:15:02.880 --> 2:15:07.160 can quickly get volatile. If you know if people aren't 2:15:07.240 --> 2:15:10.960 sure about other people's intentions. So I would say that 2:15:12.880 --> 2:15:14.800 one of the best interactions I've had with the cops 2:15:14.960 --> 2:15:17.480 is they did come through here once and talk to 2:15:17.560 --> 2:15:23.440 a few folks, and a sergeant from the police department said, um, 2:15:23.720 --> 2:15:27.360 roughly that they couldn't make us leave because this was 2:15:27.440 --> 2:15:29.600 city land and they didn't have anywhere else to send us. 2:15:30.360 --> 2:15:34.920 So okay, I'll take it. I've got it. I've got 2:15:34.960 --> 2:15:39.400 the dr assaultation. Elizabeth does hope that one day the 2:15:39.480 --> 2:15:43.400 relations between the church that first Collective was previously operating 2:15:43.480 --> 2:15:46.920 out of could be mended and once again work to 2:15:47.200 --> 2:15:50.800 utilize the space to serve the Wedder community. She also 2:15:50.840 --> 2:15:54.480 discussed the possibility of moving into vacant buildings and hoping 2:15:54.560 --> 2:15:57.720 to restore them while also having a place to provide 2:15:57.800 --> 2:16:02.040 more stable housing. So where the church is concerned, UM, 2:16:02.920 --> 2:16:06.600 I haven't given apprope. We we aren't in the building now. 2:16:07.000 --> 2:16:10.560 I don't have a key, but I got a church 2:16:10.600 --> 2:16:13.880 every Sunday. Um I'm not I'm not a Christian. I 2:16:13.880 --> 2:16:17.360 don't believe in God, but I do like the messages 2:16:17.920 --> 2:16:22.800 that I get there, and I I want to continue 2:16:22.840 --> 2:16:25.560 to use this really wonderful building as a part of 2:16:25.600 --> 2:16:28.600 the community, you know it's there. There are a lot 2:16:28.640 --> 2:16:32.240 of goals that that we as a camp have and 2:16:32.400 --> 2:16:34.720 some of them include the church and we we'd love 2:16:34.800 --> 2:16:39.200 to get back into that space and fix the two 2:16:39.320 --> 2:16:43.160 bathrooms in the basement that are just sitting there, build 2:16:43.200 --> 2:16:49.000 some showers, laundry facilities, a free store, kitchen. There's there's 2:16:49.000 --> 2:16:51.040 so much that we could do if we could utilize 2:16:51.080 --> 2:16:54.680 that building in addition to the the infrastructure that we 2:16:54.760 --> 2:16:59.879 have here um. But when it comes to two buildings 2:17:00.000 --> 2:17:03.920 something more. We're currently working on a proposal for the 2:17:04.000 --> 2:17:08.840 city for some of the relief funds that have been 2:17:08.879 --> 2:17:14.480 received but not dispersed with the goals of ideally building 2:17:15.160 --> 2:17:18.480 little cabins on platforms on the lot that we're on now, 2:17:19.120 --> 2:17:21.520 just to start to get people out of tents, to 2:17:21.879 --> 2:17:25.560 start meeting some of the code requirements to improve the 2:17:25.640 --> 2:17:29.560 sanitary and living conditions, and then from there we'll ask 2:17:29.640 --> 2:17:32.640 them to give us a building to restore. There's a 2:17:32.720 --> 2:17:35.320 lot of really skilled people out here and they want 2:17:35.320 --> 2:17:37.720 to work, and they want to work on all of 2:17:37.840 --> 2:17:40.960 these old buildings that have been allowed to fall apart 2:17:41.040 --> 2:17:44.880 all over the city. There are so many rooms available. 2:17:44.959 --> 2:17:47.120 There's so many units that they could work on that 2:17:47.240 --> 2:17:50.160 they could live in, and I think that's what they 2:17:50.160 --> 2:17:51.480 want to do, So that's what we're going to try 2:17:51.520 --> 2:17:54.320 and help them do. The camp functions under a sort 2:17:54.360 --> 2:17:58.920 of direct democracy with residents and first collective volunteers, some 2:17:59.080 --> 2:18:03.160 of whom are all residents, hold regular community meetings where 2:18:03.240 --> 2:18:08.360 camp occupants vote to make decisions about camp guidelines. There 2:18:08.400 --> 2:18:11.800 has been a couple instances of violence, UM, a couple 2:18:12.680 --> 2:18:16.360 particularly scary moments that we had to try and de escalate. 2:18:16.640 --> 2:18:20.880 And there's sometimes that we didn't handle things as best 2:18:20.959 --> 2:18:25.400 we could UM, but we we try, and we tried 2:18:25.520 --> 2:18:29.520 to talk through the way that the way that it 2:18:29.600 --> 2:18:34.480 goes down with the residents, among the volunteers. UM. We 2:18:34.560 --> 2:18:37.720 try to be transparent about you know, why why we 2:18:37.800 --> 2:18:40.680 make some of the decisions that we do, and for 2:18:40.800 --> 2:18:43.160 the most part, we leave it to the community. UM. 2:18:43.560 --> 2:18:48.760 There have been some really great community meetings go so long, UM, 2:18:49.040 --> 2:18:52.240 but they talk about everything they talk about, you know, 2:18:52.440 --> 2:18:57.600 shared concerns about safety, concerns about how they want to 2:18:57.680 --> 2:19:01.960 live together and what would make and feel safer, and 2:19:02.720 --> 2:19:10.000 established guidelines and occasionally vote to remove people. So UM, 2:19:10.080 --> 2:19:13.360 we've managed to resolve some of those conflicts before they 2:19:13.400 --> 2:19:17.760 went that far. I initially talked with Elizabeth in May two, 2:19:18.200 --> 2:19:19.720 but I was able to catch up with her a 2:19:19.800 --> 2:19:22.120 few weeks ago to hear about what's been going on 2:19:22.400 --> 2:19:25.400 the past month. UM. I just wanted to kind of 2:19:25.600 --> 2:19:27.680 fill you in on what we've been up to UM 2:19:28.000 --> 2:19:31.480 over the past month or so. It's it's been busy. UM. 2:19:32.080 --> 2:19:34.840 We've been to a lot of Area Commission meetings for 2:19:35.040 --> 2:19:39.440 the different areas of the city to try and make 2:19:39.520 --> 2:19:44.520 some allies and talk to people about what we think 2:19:44.640 --> 2:19:47.480 is a solution to a problem they don't know how 2:19:47.520 --> 2:19:51.160 to solve, but to get some unwanted attention. A local station, 2:19:51.320 --> 2:19:54.360 Tim TB came through with a bit of an agenda. 2:19:55.120 --> 2:19:57.160 Right now, the city of Columbus has a problem and 2:19:57.240 --> 2:20:00.360 it has to do with homelessness. I can't set up 2:20:00.400 --> 2:20:03.080 on city property along East Mound Street in the middle 2:20:03.120 --> 2:20:06.040 of the Near East Side neighborhood, is raising questions tonight 2:20:06.120 --> 2:20:08.920 about whether the twenty people who live there should be 2:20:08.959 --> 2:20:12.080 allowed to stay are forced to go to Kevin Landers 2:20:12.120 --> 2:20:14.560 has been working the story all day. Today. He went 2:20:14.640 --> 2:20:16.760 to the camp and spoke to those who lived there 2:20:16.840 --> 2:20:20.280 and got answers from city leaders about addressing concerns from 2:20:20.320 --> 2:20:24.120 neighbors who say that camp it's got to go. This 2:20:24.400 --> 2:20:27.800 on Housing community is located on East Mound Street. The 2:20:27.879 --> 2:20:31.320 people who live here, the city says, are technically trespassing. 2:20:31.640 --> 2:20:33.640 The city says they're going to let them stay here 2:20:33.760 --> 2:20:37.400 until they can find housing, but not everybody wants them here. 2:20:37.920 --> 2:20:42.240 They wanted to talk specifically about our sanitation situation and 2:20:42.320 --> 2:20:45.920 nothing else. Um. I told them we've been waiting on 2:20:46.000 --> 2:20:50.920 the city since abol fifteen for the dumpster the Port 2:20:50.959 --> 2:20:53.880 of John's if they'd offered, but um, they were still 2:20:53.920 --> 2:20:56.280 looking into it. So we took it into our own hands. 2:20:57.040 --> 2:21:00.080 All that attention, we needed to do something, So we 2:21:00.200 --> 2:21:05.280 contracted a porta john company who is currently donating to 2:21:05.480 --> 2:21:09.200 porta John's and servicing it once a week. Um, which 2:21:09.240 --> 2:21:12.640 is great. Uh. We had a compost toilet before and 2:21:12.879 --> 2:21:16.800 this is so much better. Um. And we went out 2:21:16.840 --> 2:21:19.720 of pocket to pay for the trash service. So we're 2:21:19.840 --> 2:21:23.800 getting our own trash service. Trash service now once a week. Um. 2:21:23.879 --> 2:21:27.120 It's not quite enough, but it certainly helps you see 2:21:27.160 --> 2:21:30.320 code enforcement go by all the time. Um, they've been 2:21:30.440 --> 2:21:33.720 driving by. I've seen them at least five or six times. 2:21:33.760 --> 2:21:37.560 Today people are waiting for something that they can latch onto, 2:21:37.760 --> 2:21:42.360 But so far, so good. With Columbus facing one hundred 2:21:42.440 --> 2:21:45.840 degree heat waves, what started as a warming station in 2:21:45.920 --> 2:21:49.280 winter now serves as a cooling station this summer for 2:21:49.440 --> 2:21:53.520 its few dozen residents, as gears shift and new seasonal 2:21:53.600 --> 2:21:57.480 materials are required. The camp has been exploring alternative methods 2:21:57.520 --> 2:22:00.600 of funding to sustain the level of resources and services 2:22:00.840 --> 2:22:03.880 they've been able to provide the past few months. We 2:22:03.959 --> 2:22:07.440 did launch a go fund me and we've had pretty 2:22:07.440 --> 2:22:11.360 good luks so far. We've raised seven thousand, five UM. 2:22:12.640 --> 2:22:16.680 This is just for operating funds um. There's a lot 2:22:16.760 --> 2:22:18.600 that we would like to do here. It's a lot 2:22:18.680 --> 2:22:21.680 we'd like to do with the land, but for now 2:22:21.879 --> 2:22:26.240 we just need We're just fundraising to keep going. The 2:22:26.320 --> 2:22:29.879 camp still serves around twenty five people, so resources end 2:22:29.959 --> 2:22:33.560 up getting distributed across a large collection of individuals. All 2:22:33.640 --> 2:22:37.280 the donations received have been used to provide necessities to survive, 2:22:37.400 --> 2:22:41.800 including but not limited to, shelters like tents, food, water, 2:22:42.000 --> 2:22:47.760 medical supplies, bedding, clothes, bus passes, medical services and prescriptions, 2:22:48.240 --> 2:22:52.760 hard production supplies, Funds for individuals immediate needs, and assistance 2:22:52.800 --> 2:22:56.360 to pay with residents phone bills. Sometimes funds are also 2:22:56.480 --> 2:23:00.600 used to compensate residents for extra labor put towards maintaining 2:23:00.680 --> 2:23:03.640 the camp, like cleaning up the campsite, cutting up firewood, 2:23:03.879 --> 2:23:07.960 and providing extra services like haircuts. The response has been 2:23:08.040 --> 2:23:10.320 really good. I think people understand what we're trying to 2:23:10.440 --> 2:23:14.800 do and are are being really receptive to it. UM. 2:23:16.120 --> 2:23:18.800 I can't say the same about the city though. We UH. 2:23:19.360 --> 2:23:23.039 We met with Councilwoman shale A Favor from the city 2:23:23.080 --> 2:23:29.960 on Monday and presented a proposal. We asked for eighty 2:23:30.560 --> 2:23:35.960 five dollars over the next six months to continue operation, 2:23:36.560 --> 2:23:39.840 to pay a small salary to the three volunteers that 2:23:39.920 --> 2:23:45.320 are here all the time, UM for healthcare, for a 2:23:45.560 --> 2:23:48.480 small stipend to give to each resident of the camp 2:23:48.600 --> 2:23:55.400 every every week, UM additional operating funds. Just we came 2:23:55.440 --> 2:24:00.440 to them with this ask and they didn't really seem 2:24:00.520 --> 2:24:05.000 to get it UM, so we're gonna keep trying. They 2:24:05.400 --> 2:24:09.640 they felt like they can't really support a tent city 2:24:10.200 --> 2:24:13.160 in their minds, like they couldn't give money to support 2:24:14.120 --> 2:24:18.600 people who were residing in tents because tents are inadequate shelter. 2:24:19.920 --> 2:24:23.120 But I mean I can test that not having a 2:24:23.200 --> 2:24:27.119 tent is also an adequate shelter. The City of Columbus 2:24:28.040 --> 2:24:32.880 relies almost completely on the Community Shelter Board to manage 2:24:33.080 --> 2:24:39.119 its problem with homelessness. Community Shelter Board has a revenue 2:24:39.160 --> 2:24:42.879 of around forty four million dollars a year. They pay 2:24:42.959 --> 2:24:46.480 their director half a million dollars just under UM and 2:24:46.560 --> 2:24:52.160 a few other executives received ample compensation. But their success 2:24:52.360 --> 2:24:56.320 rate for the entire county is label at you go 2:24:56.440 --> 2:24:59.760 through their data. They have managed to get pent of 2:24:59.840 --> 2:25:03.520 the people who come through their shelter into some sort 2:25:03.560 --> 2:25:07.360 of housing. For the zip code that we're serving at seven, 2:25:08.000 --> 2:25:13.760 which equates to eight people over the past year. So 2:25:14.160 --> 2:25:17.960 what they're doing is not working at all, and they 2:25:18.040 --> 2:25:20.040 know it, but they don't know what else to do. 2:25:21.240 --> 2:25:23.960 Whenever we talk to the city, someone tells us to 2:25:24.040 --> 2:25:26.840 talk to this one particular person. Her name has Emerald 2:25:26.879 --> 2:25:30.440 her nand as Para. She is the assistant director of 2:25:30.520 --> 2:25:35.040 Special Projects for the Department of Development. If you have 2:25:35.240 --> 2:25:39.560 a problem with a homeless camp in the city, she 2:25:39.800 --> 2:25:41.880 is the person that the city wants you to talk to, 2:25:42.760 --> 2:25:46.600 no matter what UM if if you're homeless, that's who 2:25:46.959 --> 2:25:49.160 that's who they want you to talk to. She's under 2:25:49.240 --> 2:25:55.040 the Department of Development. Her her main focus is economic development. 2:25:55.800 --> 2:25:59.880 She's just special projects, which means she helps clear the 2:26:00.000 --> 2:26:05.480 way by getting camps out of the way for development projects. 2:26:06.600 --> 2:26:10.440 That's that's her role, and she is the city's liaison. 2:26:11.240 --> 2:26:12.920 No matter who we talked to, she's the one that 2:26:13.000 --> 2:26:17.119 we keep coming back to. So I think it's pretty 2:26:17.240 --> 2:26:23.879 um cynical and upsetting that this isn't under the purview 2:26:24.040 --> 2:26:27.400 of the Department of Health, you know, and any any 2:26:27.440 --> 2:26:29.400 other department would be a little bit better than the 2:26:29.400 --> 2:26:33.040 Department of Development to show so much we care. We're 2:26:33.080 --> 2:26:36.360 planning to go back to the city, uh, regardless of 2:26:36.440 --> 2:26:39.680 what they say about this initial proposal, because there's a 2:26:39.720 --> 2:26:42.480 lot that we'd like to build here and and we 2:26:42.600 --> 2:26:46.040 think they'd be amenable if they understood. We're drafting a 2:26:46.160 --> 2:26:50.960 second round proposal taking inspiration from Dignity Village in Portland. 2:26:51.800 --> 2:26:55.960 It's an autonomous village of fun housed people that's existed 2:26:56.040 --> 2:26:59.560 since two thousand and I think there's a lot of 2:27:00.080 --> 2:27:03.880 we can learn from them for modeling this in a 2:27:03.920 --> 2:27:07.480 way that the city might better understand. We believe that 2:27:07.560 --> 2:27:10.920 what we're doing here is transitional housing, and the people 2:27:11.000 --> 2:27:14.160 who are here want to be involved in building that 2:27:14.360 --> 2:27:18.200 transitional housing for themselves and then for the people to 2:27:18.280 --> 2:27:21.440 come after. So that's that's what we're hoping to get 2:27:21.480 --> 2:27:24.400 the city to sign off on. Whom we met with. 2:27:25.640 --> 2:27:28.320 We met with the councilwoman. One of the things that 2:27:28.480 --> 2:27:32.040 she said was they at the city they don't have 2:27:32.120 --> 2:27:37.760 a model for serving the population that we're serving. Um, 2:27:38.680 --> 2:27:43.200 they don't. They don't know how to handle people who 2:27:43.320 --> 2:27:45.760 don't want to move inside, who don't want to move 2:27:45.800 --> 2:27:49.720 into the shelter system for whatever reason, and so all 2:27:49.800 --> 2:27:55.160 they can really do is move them around. Um, we're 2:27:55.200 --> 2:27:57.080 trying to tell them that we do have a model 2:27:58.000 --> 2:28:00.560 and we think we think that we can help the 2:28:00.640 --> 2:28:04.000 city as long as they stay pretty hands off and 2:28:04.600 --> 2:28:09.160 give us money for it. So fingers crossed. I'm not 2:28:09.200 --> 2:28:12.959 going to hold my breath, but fingers crossed. The city 2:28:12.959 --> 2:28:16.280 of Columbus has been much more openly hostile to some 2:28:16.440 --> 2:28:20.440 other encampments providing cooling and shelter in parts of the city. 2:28:21.080 --> 2:28:24.880 We're not the only on house encampment in Columbus. Um. 2:28:25.000 --> 2:28:28.280 There there are a lot more, and there's one that 2:28:29.160 --> 2:28:32.240 is at it's called Here Park on the south side. 2:28:32.800 --> 2:28:36.000 We have a lot of friends there. UM. Our organization 2:28:36.160 --> 2:28:40.120 works with their organization. UH. They were served a fourteen 2:28:40.200 --> 2:28:44.400 day eviction notice UM on the first and they have 2:28:44.520 --> 2:28:48.960 until to move out. UM. So we're doing whatever we 2:28:49.040 --> 2:28:53.680 can to support them. But UM, it very much feels 2:28:53.840 --> 2:28:58.400 like we're being treated like the good camp and they're 2:28:58.440 --> 2:29:01.520 the bad camp right now. So we're trying our best 2:29:01.680 --> 2:29:05.480 to make sure that the city knows that we're with them. 2:29:06.080 --> 2:29:09.880 You know, I I'm whatever they think about us. We 2:29:10.879 --> 2:29:13.720 we support those people no matter what, and we'll see 2:29:13.720 --> 2:29:16.680 whatever we can to help. UM. We're trying to give 2:29:16.720 --> 2:29:19.440 them advice about the things that have worked for us 2:29:19.600 --> 2:29:24.600 to keep the city away and hopefully if they do 2:29:24.800 --> 2:29:26.920 have to move on the fourteenth, they'll be able to 2:29:26.959 --> 2:29:28.920 set up somewhere over the city or give them a break. 2:29:29.760 --> 2:29:32.640 Here is some audio of a press conference given at 2:29:32.800 --> 2:29:36.560 the Here Park camp just last week. The city is 2:29:36.640 --> 2:29:38.880 not out here giving out water. The city is not 2:29:39.040 --> 2:29:43.440 out here making sure that UH people don't get heat 2:29:43.480 --> 2:29:46.680 exhaustion or heat stroke. Right, They're nowhere to be found. 2:29:47.240 --> 2:29:49.240 So we are here to remind them they have a 2:29:49.360 --> 2:29:53.840 hundred and thirty five million dollars in American Rescue Plan funds. 2:29:54.320 --> 2:29:57.240 Where is this money going? Why do we not have housing? 2:29:57.640 --> 2:30:00.480 This weather is just a little taste for many of 2:30:00.600 --> 2:30:03.800 us of the conditions that our unhoused neighbors out here 2:30:04.480 --> 2:30:08.120 can look forward to enduring for the entire summer. The 2:30:08.240 --> 2:30:12.120 City of Columbus was planning on evicting our people today 2:30:12.360 --> 2:30:17.680 June fourteenth. They delayed that eviction. It is a human right, 2:30:17.920 --> 2:30:21.680 so we are here to assert our human rights. Two housing. 2:30:22.879 --> 2:30:24.760 They're hoping that we're going to get hot and tired 2:30:25.360 --> 2:30:31.040 and we're out. Are we gonna let up? The Here 2:30:31.120 --> 2:30:34.080 Park Camp eviction was pushed back to June twenty one 2:30:34.360 --> 2:30:37.480 due to a massive heat wave, and by June one, 2:30:37.720 --> 2:30:40.440 the temperature was still in the upper nineties, but the 2:30:40.560 --> 2:30:43.600 city followed through on their threat and swept the camp. 2:30:44.200 --> 2:30:48.160 At least twenty Columbus police cruisers, city attorneys, people from 2:30:48.200 --> 2:30:51.360 the Department of Development, and other city employees were on 2:30:51.560 --> 2:30:56.359 site for the eviction. Bulldozers and massive machinery crushed people's 2:30:56.400 --> 2:31:00.600 tents and personal belongings. Some folks, forcibly displaced have lived 2:31:00.680 --> 2:31:04.920 in the here Park for nearly a decade. For wrapping 2:31:05.000 --> 2:31:07.400 up this episode, I had just one more question for 2:31:07.560 --> 2:31:11.720 Elizabeth for people who would be interested in trying to 2:31:11.920 --> 2:31:15.200 create similar projects or hopeful smilar similar projects in their area, 2:31:16.600 --> 2:31:18.240 how will it would be some advice to give to 2:31:18.320 --> 2:31:21.520 people who who are want to try something similar. What's 2:31:21.560 --> 2:31:23.440 the kind of stuff that you've learned the past few 2:31:23.480 --> 2:31:28.280 months that you were kind of surprised by UM and 2:31:28.520 --> 2:31:30.480 and you know, if if you could do anything different, 2:31:30.560 --> 2:31:32.600 what's what's like what's the kind of stuff that you 2:31:32.600 --> 2:31:35.880 would uh that you would approach UM to make the 2:31:35.959 --> 2:31:40.120 processes like smoother or slightly more improved. Well, I would 2:31:40.120 --> 2:31:43.760 have looked for more funders first. Um. The one of 2:31:43.800 --> 2:31:47.680 the most painful parts for me has, like just personally 2:31:47.800 --> 2:31:51.760 has been holding the purse UM, being the person that 2:31:51.920 --> 2:31:55.680 everyone knows to ask for for cash if they needed 2:31:55.800 --> 2:32:01.280 for something UM It. It is a it is a 2:32:01.360 --> 2:32:06.720 real strain on compassion sometimes, you know, on compassion fatigue 2:32:08.000 --> 2:32:11.240 is real, and it can be really hard day and 2:32:11.480 --> 2:32:14.560 day out having to field requests from people who you 2:32:14.680 --> 2:32:20.600 know need these resources, but you can't always give everything. 2:32:20.920 --> 2:32:23.040 It's it's hard to say no. Learning to say no 2:32:23.440 --> 2:32:30.520 has um has helped, but ah, diversifying our funding sources 2:32:30.840 --> 2:32:36.520 is also helping a lot. Um. I've learned that I 2:32:36.640 --> 2:32:40.640 can't do at all and that I need to take breaks, 2:32:41.160 --> 2:32:47.040 and that being here is is what I want to do. 2:32:47.680 --> 2:32:51.040 But it doesn't mean I need to always always do it. 2:32:51.520 --> 2:32:57.480 Sometimes you've got to step away. UM. I I wish 2:32:57.560 --> 2:33:02.320 that I had spent a little more time with my family, um, 2:33:03.320 --> 2:33:07.560 rather than you know, throwing myself completely into this U. 2:33:08.600 --> 2:33:11.960 But two months ago my fiance, my ex fiance, asked 2:33:12.000 --> 2:33:14.680 me to leave. So I have been living at the 2:33:14.760 --> 2:33:19.040 camp too. UM. So I it's it's been a pretty 2:33:19.080 --> 2:33:23.560 stark jump to go from having a big house and 2:33:24.360 --> 2:33:28.039 some retirement funds to living in a tent and having none. 2:33:28.959 --> 2:33:31.720 But I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't change it, and 2:33:32.040 --> 2:33:36.240 I'm going to keep doing it. It's because I can, 2:33:36.920 --> 2:33:40.119 because I could, And that's that's really what I want 2:33:40.160 --> 2:33:42.199 people to see is that if they can do something, 2:33:42.440 --> 2:33:48.160 they should. Um. It's the best job I've ever had. Um. 2:33:49.280 --> 2:33:53.120 You know, nothing is more rewarding than going to work 2:33:53.200 --> 2:33:56.480 and hanging out with your friends all day, like helping 2:33:56.560 --> 2:34:03.520 them get jobs and find apartments and meet friends like, 2:34:04.760 --> 2:34:07.800 all right, there's so many wonderful people here, and like 2:34:08.280 --> 2:34:10.879 me and the other volunteers, we love all of them 2:34:11.200 --> 2:34:13.560 and you want nothing more than to see them succeed. 2:34:14.120 --> 2:34:17.520 So yeah, I just I just advised people to do 2:34:17.600 --> 2:34:19.840 what they can, to ask for what they need and 2:34:20.760 --> 2:34:23.959 try and provide it. Anyone who wants to know more 2:34:24.080 --> 2:34:26.520 about the First Collective and what they're doing, you can 2:34:26.600 --> 2:34:30.879 go to First hyphen Collective dot org. You can find 2:34:30.959 --> 2:34:35.440 links on Elizabeth's Twitter account at an Optimist. And even 2:34:35.520 --> 2:34:39.520 if you disagree with some of the organizational or structural choices, 2:34:40.080 --> 2:34:42.600 I hope you at least learned something or got something 2:34:42.680 --> 2:34:46.400 productive out of this example of people putting in effort 2:34:46.680 --> 2:34:49.880 to fill in the gaps in their local community that 2:34:50.080 --> 2:34:56.039 isn't for us today. See you on the other side. Hey, 2:34:56.200 --> 2:34:59.280 We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 2:34:59.320 --> 2:35:01.880 now until we the death of the universe. It could 2:35:01.920 --> 2:35:04.240 happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. For 2:35:04.360 --> 2:35:07.080 more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 2:35:07.160 --> 2:35:09.080 zone media dot com, or check us out on the 2:35:09.160 --> 2:35:11.840 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 2:35:11.879 --> 2:35:14.560 to podcasts. You can find sources for it could happen here. 2:35:14.640 --> 2:35:18.039 Updated monthly at cool Zone media dot com slash Sources, 2:35:18.320 --> 2:35:19.080 Thanks for listening.