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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Number what podcast is this for? Uh? Moira,

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Speaker 1: That's a perfect way to open this episode because it's

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Speaker 1: it could happen here, the podcast about things falling apart

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Speaker 1: um and putting them back together. Sometimes not often enough

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Speaker 1: because I'm a hack and a fraud. Um. But um,

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Speaker 1: this is Robert Evans and my guest today is Moira

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Speaker 1: Meltzer Cohen. Moira, you are my lawyer and you are

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Speaker 1: my editor. You edited after the Revolution book in stores now,

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Speaker 1: so you're you're you're many many things to me, um,

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Speaker 1: and today you're gonna help me understand the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: Well that's let me be a little more specific about

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Speaker 1: why we're chatting today on for the internet sake. Um.

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Speaker 1: The Supreme Court last week issued a ruling and there

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Speaker 1: may have been another ruling by the time you hear this,

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Speaker 1: but this specific ruling was about a case that had

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Speaker 1: to do with what's called a Bivens action. Um. If

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Speaker 1: you have seen people talking about this Supreme Court ruling online,

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Speaker 1: it has probably been with them sharing an image of

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Speaker 1: the United States that shows the hundred mile zone where

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Speaker 1: border patrol is able to operate. UM, and being like, now,

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Speaker 1: because of this ruling, border patrol can come into your

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Speaker 1: house with impunity and do whatever they want to you. Um.

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Speaker 1: There's been a lot of like stuff said about this ruling,

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Speaker 1: and as is often the case when people are getting

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Speaker 1: really up in arms about the niche aspects of a

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Speaker 1: court ruling, they're not entirely correct about what the ruling does. Um.

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Speaker 1: The hundred mile zone is absolutely a real thing, and

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Speaker 1: the Feds can do all sorts of funked up shipped

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Speaker 1: to you in your house. But that is UM, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about this, yeah, UM sure, So. I think the

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Speaker 1: first place to start is people are always asking me,

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Speaker 1: when can the Feds kick in my door? My girlfriend

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Speaker 1: always says when it's closed, But I say is whenever

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Speaker 1: they want to? Uh, what might change from case to cases.

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Speaker 1: They rationalize it in court later. Um. And so this

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Speaker 1: is this is really a case that further reinforces the

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Speaker 1: fact that for many, many years, UM, federal agents h

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Speaker 1: in particular border control have been able, have had a

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Speaker 1: lot of power to conduct searches if they rationalize those

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Speaker 1: searches with respect to immigration or in this case the

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Speaker 1: even more hype term national security. So, um, this is

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Speaker 1: not new. The federal statute outlining the powers and duties

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Speaker 1: of border officers was past I think in ninety two,

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Speaker 1: and I believe always said that border agents can conduct

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Speaker 1: searches within quote a reasonable distance of the border. I

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Speaker 1: think case law has determined that that reasonable distance is

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Speaker 1: a hundred miles. Yeah, we're not really looking at anything

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Speaker 1: particularly new here. Um. So that one of the things

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Speaker 1: about this hundred miles, As people keep saying, oh, the

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Speaker 1: Fourth Amendment doesn't exist within a hundred miles of the border, Um,

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Speaker 1: it does. This is not considered to be a violation

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Speaker 1: of the Fourth Amendment because a search within a reasonable

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Speaker 1: distance of the border is considered a reasonable search right.

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Speaker 1: The Fourth Amendment protects you from unreasonable searching, and this

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Speaker 1: is statutorily considered a reasonable search right. So I feel

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Speaker 1: like a lot of the media around this particular case

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Speaker 1: is kind of an exercise and extreme point missing. It's

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Speaker 1: both an overreaction to some things that are outrageous but

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Speaker 1: are in no way new. Um, everyone's sharing these maps,

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Speaker 1: like you said, Um, and again it's one of those

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Speaker 1: things where it's like we're not saying there's not a

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Speaker 1: lot of that, this is not a problem. That there

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Speaker 1: aren't problems with the there's that the hundred mile zone

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Speaker 1: isn't a problem the border patrol. There's not a lot

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Speaker 1: of messed up stuff that they do. It's it's the

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Speaker 1: idea that like this ruling came out and suddenly there's

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Speaker 1: no more Fourth Amendment, right like, which is how some

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Speaker 1: people have interpreted it. Because the Internet is a machine

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Speaker 1: that devours context, that's right, social media, I should say, Yeah, sure.

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Speaker 1: So so this case is is called Egbert v. Bull,

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Speaker 1: which I just think it's a marvelous case name, and

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Speaker 1: these are all incredible. The original Bivens case is Bivens

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Speaker 1: versus six unknown named agents, which I also elect a

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Speaker 1: lot six unknown narcotics agents. Yeah. Well, I mean there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of sort of wonderful case names. Um. My favorite,

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Speaker 1: of course is Alien v. Predator. Um, Yeah, you see

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Speaker 1: what I did there? I did, I did. I just

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Speaker 1: showed Garrison Aliens last weekend, so I was, oh, for

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Speaker 1: the first time, Yes, marvelous. Uh. So, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I think what's happening here is that even among people

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Speaker 1: who kind of have a sense of history or an analysis,

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Speaker 1: there's maybe this lingering belief that the legal system is

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Speaker 1: supposed to protect us, or that maybe at some time

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Speaker 1: it did protect us, and it just like persists like

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Speaker 1: a vestigial tale of of like hope. Yeah, but I

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Speaker 1: kind of love this case. I did read this case

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Speaker 1: and um, at least as Clarence Thomas describes him. The

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Speaker 1: plaintiff in this case whose bool is basically the viewpoint

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Speaker 1: character from a Steely Dance song like he like appears

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Speaker 1: to have sort of spring fully for him from the

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Speaker 1: head of Donald Fagan, and he drove off with his

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Speaker 1: vanity plate that says smuggler. Honestly, I'm sure going to

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Speaker 1: tell me it was something problematic, but sounds like a

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Speaker 1: cool dude to me. He spent years playing both sides

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Speaker 1: of this game. He would get paid by people to

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Speaker 1: smuggle them across the Canadian border and he'd make them,

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Speaker 1: he'd like extort money from them. He'd make them buy

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Speaker 1: a room at his hotel, even if they weren't going

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Speaker 1: to stay at his hotel, and then he'd charge them

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Speaker 1: money for every hour that he spent driving to pick

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Speaker 1: them up and take them across to Canada. And then

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Speaker 1: he would turn around and get paid by the Feds

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Speaker 1: to snitch on the people who had just paid him

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Speaker 1: to smuggle them across the border. Cheez, yeah, all right,

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Speaker 1: now I don't think this guy's cool. Yeah, So he

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Speaker 1: basically ends up getting in an altercation with a federal

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Speaker 1: agent and he's back to being cool, okay, And then

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Speaker 1: when he makes an administrative complaint to the agency, the

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Speaker 1: agent six the i R S on him. This is,

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Speaker 1: I mean, alright, not good behavior, right right. But now,

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Speaker 1: after years of doing dirty work for the Feds, Bool

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Speaker 1: is outraged because he never thought tigers would eat his face.

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Speaker 1: So he assues the agent under Bivens, which is a

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Speaker 1: case that sort of a little bit maybe sometimes gives

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Speaker 1: individuals a very narrowly tenuous, circumscribed opportunity to sue federal

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Speaker 1: agents for certain civil rights violations. And um, it's not

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Speaker 1: a very strong right and it has been getting ever

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Speaker 1: more eviscerated since. Yeah. Um, And really, what Bivens does

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Speaker 1: is it gives you, uh, you know, in the very

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Speaker 1: unlikely event that you win a Bivens claim, it gives

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Speaker 1: you money, damages. It doesn't give you a better a law.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't give you better police practices, it doesn't make

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Speaker 1: you safer. It's not nothing. But it's not like it's

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Speaker 1: it's money justically what the law can give you. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: unless you're harboring the delusion that there is a sort

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Speaker 1: of direct connection between being allowed to try, usually unsuccessfully,

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Speaker 1: to recover money from the federal government and the self

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Speaker 1: control or good behavior of federal agents, Vivons is not

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Speaker 1: actually a particularly useful mechanism for pursuing anything that resembles

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Speaker 1: like a well developed vision of justice. Right, It's not nothing.

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to dismiss the utility of

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Speaker 1: Vivian's but it's you know, it's not like it's not

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Speaker 1: a strong right. It's not a reliable right you know,

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Speaker 1: to sue. Um, it's not very effective. One of my

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Speaker 1: loved colleagues uh described it. He said, Bivens is such

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Speaker 1: a bad doctrine that it's taking other doctrines down with it. Right,

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Speaker 1: It's just it's um, it's just such a weak case

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Speaker 1: at this point that it trying to trying to use

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Speaker 1: it and trying to invoke it can actually end up

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Speaker 1: just being counterproductive, as it is in this case. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we have a very unsympathetic plaintiff and we have a

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Speaker 1: really weak doctrine, so he sues under Bivens. It goes

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Speaker 1: up and down the chords. It winds up in the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court, which issues a sort of a bunch of

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Speaker 1: sort of fragmented opinions, but ultimately all the justices mostly

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Speaker 1: agree this is not a super controversial um question, at

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Speaker 1: least within the context of the court itself. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: the first thing is they all say, you don't there's

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Speaker 1: no right to sue for money damages under the theory

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Speaker 1: of First Amendment retaliation. Meaning um wool had sued the

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Speaker 1: agent for basically for punishing him for making a complaint.

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Speaker 1: He's saying, I exercise my First Amendment right to make

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Speaker 1: a complaint to the agency you work for, and then

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Speaker 1: you punished me by sicking the I R S on me. Right,

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Speaker 1: I see why that's questionable in the actual like legal documentation. Yeah, so, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, the justice to say no, that that's not

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Speaker 1: a right that exists. And then they have some different

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Speaker 1: thoughts on whether or not you can sue for excessive force. Um.

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Speaker 1: But ultimately, the big decision that is made here isn't

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Speaker 1: about the border. It's not about the relative impunity of

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Speaker 1: order Patrol, which has long operated with relative impunity, just

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Speaker 1: like the rest of the federal government. Yes, I remember

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Speaker 1: that impunity when they were firing tear gas at us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you know. Uh, they decide you can't sue them, um,

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Speaker 1: which if you, if you ever could have sued them,

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Speaker 1: I guess in a successful or effective way, and if

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Speaker 1: suing them had ever had a meaningful impact on their behavior,

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Speaker 1: I guess this opinion would be a real loss. But

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Speaker 1: all this o Hinian really does as far as I

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Speaker 1: can tell, And I've spoken with my colleagues and we

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Speaker 1: all agreed that the sort of uproar over this particular

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Speaker 1: case is a little baffling because all it really does

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Speaker 1: is further remove what was already a really inaccessible and

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Speaker 1: pretty weak remedy. And yeah, sorry sir, well you know,

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Speaker 1: and then everyone lost their minds and started sharing the

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Speaker 1: a c L S a c L used map of

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Speaker 1: the hundred miles of border looks like and getting really

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Speaker 1: mad on Twitter. Yeah, and again the hundred mile border zone.

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Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say that that's a problem.

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Speaker 1: I don't like that's that's a bad way for things

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Speaker 1: to work. The border patrol, as we talked about in

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Speaker 1: our two part are on the border patrol, is a

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Speaker 1: lot of massive issues with it. But um, I feel

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Speaker 1: like kind of what's happening here is some of this

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Speaker 1: is like a little bit of collective PTSD because of

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Speaker 1: the shock of the imminent kind of demise of Row.

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Speaker 1: And so I think maybe there's this kind of expectation

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Speaker 1: that every ruling issued by the Supreme Court because Funckett

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Speaker 1: is going to be UM this kind of like earth

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Speaker 1: shattering like end of a fundamental right. And in this

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Speaker 1: case it's really just like, no, this is more or

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Speaker 1: less like this is not a massive see change. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I like to say about this kind of thing. It's appalling,

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Speaker 1: but it's not surprising. I do want to note, just

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Speaker 1: for your listeners, this case does not in any way

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Speaker 1: touch our right to sue state level police um because

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Speaker 1: there is federal legislation called sec that gives us permission

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Speaker 1: to sue the police, and UM, for some strange reason,

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Speaker 1: the federal government has not passed similar legislation allowing us

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Speaker 1: to sue them. That's really surprising. I wonder why. So

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Speaker 1: In any case, one of the things the Court says

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Speaker 1: in the Bool opinion is that if the Feds wanted

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Speaker 1: to be constrained by the citizen, RECongress would have given

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Speaker 1: us the right to constrain them. So so I think

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Speaker 1: this particular case that people have been doing out about

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Speaker 1: is a great sort of example of the way that UM,

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Speaker 1: the sort of the zeitgeist moves inexplicably to make much

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Speaker 1: of things that are maybe not all that much, and

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Speaker 1: will also kind of failing to notice things that are

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Speaker 1: really significant. And so I'd like to sort of highlight

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Speaker 1: some of those things. UM. I think there actually are

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Speaker 1: real reasons to breathe and prepare and gather our courage, UM,

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Speaker 1: based on what the Supreme Court has done this term, UH,

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Speaker 1: and I love to talk to you about some of

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Speaker 1: those things. So I do think there are real reasons

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Speaker 1: like that to breathe and prepare, and some of the

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Speaker 1: always about getting too in the weed. UM. I guess

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Speaker 1: I want to talk both about the shadow adopt it

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Speaker 1: which sat adopt it is a is a kind of

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Speaker 1: a more recently point term. Um. What it means is

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Speaker 1: what it's referring to are the cases that are often heard,

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Speaker 1: they're not heard. They're decided by the Supreme Court on

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Speaker 1: the basis of the record below, often without oral argument,

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Speaker 1: and they're often issued as holding decisions without written opinions,

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Speaker 1: so they're often not justified or rationalized or you know,

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Speaker 1: the reasoning for the decisions that are made is often

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Speaker 1: not made transparent to the public. Okay. Yeah, And these

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Speaker 1: are cases that are sort of highly procedural or there

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Speaker 1: not super complicated questions, or they're questions of law where

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Speaker 1: there's maybe a circuit what it um, and they just

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Speaker 1: need to resolve you know, what might otherwise be repugnant

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Speaker 1: views of the law. Yeah. And the shadow docket has

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Speaker 1: refinently include a jet pinaltycation. Yeah, the decided something of

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Speaker 1: such grave import with decisions that are not explained by

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Speaker 1: an opinion where the justice is not makes clear the reasoning. Um,

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Speaker 1: this is I mean, in my opinion, MH problematic. Um.

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Speaker 1: And it's you know, to the amount of power that

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Speaker 1: can be exercised by the superin court. To me, I

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Speaker 1: think requires a really intense degree of transparency. If you're

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Speaker 1: I think that like the amount of transparency that is

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Speaker 1: it's incumbent upon you to have is sort of inversely

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Speaker 1: proportionate to the amount of power you exercise. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: makes sense, um, And so the Supreme Court has just

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Speaker 1: I mean literally life with it powers here, and so

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Speaker 1: for them to be making decisions on the shadow dotet

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Speaker 1: about death penalty cases and death penalty juristic um is

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Speaker 1: just wild. Um, It's troubling, it's frightening. You know, I

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Speaker 1: think I can't remember if I talked to you before

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Speaker 1: about how about the injuries? Yeah, maybe the show about it,

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Speaker 1: but I certainly talked to you about it. We might

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Speaker 1: need to do it. It's probably a good idea at

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Speaker 1: some point to do a show about it. But yeah, Um,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that makes br injuries so anomalous

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Speaker 1: is that they aren't public, right, and that to me,

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Speaker 1: like this is a mathema. Well not to me, it

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Speaker 1: is in terms of the sort of um received wisdom

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Speaker 1: about the American legal system. To have secret proceedings is

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Speaker 1: a mathema. Who you are their own principles of due process,

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Speaker 1: which you know, which involves uh well noticed and adhering.

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Speaker 1: But really there's um a commitment to publicity right in

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Speaker 1: the American legal system that is undermined and trampled upon

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Speaker 1: by federal granturity, and that there is a similar thing

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Speaker 1: happening here with the shadow docket. We know at least

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Speaker 1: what the cases are, we know what these opinions are,

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Speaker 1: what the holdings end up being, UM. But to have

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Speaker 1: these kinds of cases being decided without oral argument, to

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Speaker 1: have these cases being decided UM without written opinions, is troubling.

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Speaker 1: So that's a move toward an exercise of power that

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Speaker 1: I need characterize as a politarian, and that I find

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Speaker 1: days concerning UM. One of the things that we're seeing,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's sort of not unrelated to that,

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Speaker 1: is that they're they seem to be dispensing the bat

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Speaker 1: when it is very decisive, which is precedent right that

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Speaker 1: the idea that previously decided cases are binding, and you know,

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Speaker 1: if you overturn one, you really have to be very

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Speaker 1: clear that that's what you're doing, and you have to

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Speaker 1: explain why. And we see that with the leaf Rose Grasp,

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Speaker 1: where they they have, you know, if indeed they issue it.

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Speaker 1: Sure because and this is like an originalism thing, right,

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Speaker 1: Like you can throw out precedent if you're saying all

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Speaker 1: that matters is this interpretation. You're saying that's based on

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Speaker 1: the original intent of like some dead dudes. Is that

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Speaker 1: more or less an accurate way to say it? Or

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Speaker 1: you can overturn DESI UM, you know, or turned precedent.

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Speaker 1: We would have that. I think the just outcome or

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Speaker 1: whatever is UM. Yeah, but I think there there's many

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Speaker 1: reasons that he can overturn President UM. But they seem

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Speaker 1: to be doing it for subsilential right. They're not. They're

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Speaker 1: not always the leak road rap didn't was pretty clear

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Speaker 1: and parent about it. But I think there are some

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Speaker 1: other things that are going on. Um. There was a

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Speaker 1: sixth Amendment case where UM they just just sort of

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Speaker 1: didn't mention all of the countervailing precedents. Yeah, you know

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Speaker 1: they there's some stuff happening. There is UM a case

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Speaker 1: in Texas. There was a fishermendent case work the courts.

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Speaker 1: The Supreme Court sent it back down to UM either

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Speaker 1: the district as the Court of Appeals. I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't remember UM or either the district or the circuit uh,

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Speaker 1: and said, look at the side is on death road

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Speaker 1: did absolutely with thee in effective asistence of council whether

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Speaker 1: the as prejudice and the technic court just ignored them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's one of those ones that people freaked out about.

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Speaker 1: That was like, yeah, I think folks should be very

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Speaker 1: unsettled by this right. And then the court was like,

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Speaker 1: m they didn't the court. There's Supreme Court that didn't.

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Speaker 1: They just let them get away with it. Um. And

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Speaker 1: so there's just sort of weird um push and full

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Speaker 1: happening not only between this court interpreting the last court

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Speaker 1: opinions and deciding basically not to enforce them, but but

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Speaker 1: there's a interesting power struggle where the opinion Court seems

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Speaker 1: to be strategically feeding power to certain uh certain lower

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Speaker 1: courts in a way that unusual. You know. So you know,

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Speaker 1: they're not they're not being transparent, they are not following precedence,

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Speaker 1: they are not um enforcing the hierarchy of the courts,

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Speaker 1: which it does sound like an odd thing. I can

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Speaker 1: put you need to complain about um. But one of

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Speaker 1: one of the things that we want to know is

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Speaker 1: that you know, One of the ways that we can

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Speaker 1: anticipate what the law is or make reliable legal arguments

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Speaker 1: is that the law has to be consistent with you know,

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Speaker 1: the law and the lower court that's to be consistent

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Speaker 1: with what the Supreme Court has said. And if we

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Speaker 1: can no longer rely on that, UM, it's um, you know, chaotic. Potentially,

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Speaker 1: it's really bad. It's really bad for our clients, apparently,

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Speaker 1: particularly clients who are facing the death penalty, which is

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Speaker 1: a particular concerns. UM. This court does seems pretty intent

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Speaker 1: on knocking over the Empire sist Amendment. UM. And then

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Speaker 1: I think yesterday or the day before, they issued a

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Speaker 1: really important immigration case on the class actions that were

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Speaker 1: brought UM by around behalf of people who were detained

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Speaker 1: an immigration detention for like months and months and months

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Speaker 1: without hearing, without vant hearing. And essentially what the court

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Speaker 1: held was UM that lower courts don't have any authority

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Speaker 1: to UM lower coach stuff. So many authorities to UM

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Speaker 1: demand that the federal government do or not do certain

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Speaker 1: things because they're they're playing as as the Immigration Naturalization

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Speaker 1: Act does not give them that authority UM. And so

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Speaker 1: it's there there's a lot I think the big trend

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Speaker 1: there is there's a lot of protecting the federals of

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Speaker 1: this from any kind of accountability. Um, accountability that's being

348
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Speaker 1: imposed by lower general courts who are concerned the States, right.

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Speaker 1: They have a cool way of showing it. I don't

350
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Speaker 1: know what else to say about it, because it is

351
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Speaker 1: one of those things where when we talk about, or

352
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Speaker 1: when I talk about, like the frustration at people kind

353
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Speaker 1: of sharing information about stuff the Court is doing, or

354
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Speaker 1: about changes to how our rights are being interpreted by

355
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Speaker 1: courts that are incorrect. It's not because like there's not

356
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Speaker 1: a problem. It's because it's really important to be aware

357
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Speaker 1: of like the it's really important to like see the

358
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Speaker 1: problem accurately, um, and to see it like it's this

359
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: it's this broad assault. Like like you said, the fact

360
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Speaker 1: that the fact that you have this kind of high

361
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Speaker 1: level attack on the Fifth Amendment is really frightening because

362
00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: that's one of like theoretically our primary protections. Yeah, there's

363
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Speaker 1: also I think there's going to be a mirandic case.

364
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Speaker 1: Okay already, Oh boy, I'm not looking forward to that.

365
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Speaker 1: That's a little bit anxious about that. Um, Yeah, I

366
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Speaker 1: don't know. I mean I think that the general thing. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think the thing that I would like

368
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Speaker 1: to highlight your paying attention to what writes just the

369
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: Freme Court is trampling on It's obviously pretty important, but

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Speaker 1: it's pretty likely to be kind of more of the same,

371
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Speaker 1: particularly for quality targeted groups of people. I like the

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Speaker 1: lot is in certain respects fictional, right, Like the lies

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Speaker 1: an abstract concept. Sure, absolutely, yes, your real impact it's

374
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Speaker 1: not you know, like I don't want to get all

375
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: post modern here. It's not like a lot of fictional

376
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: things have have real impacts, um exactly, Like, uh, it

377
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: has real impact obviously, but I think that the impact

378
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: of the import ruling, you know, it's very serious, it's

379
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: very important. Um, but it's also sort of immediately transformed

380
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: the world. I think it just sort of changes what

381
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: kinds of solutions we look to, right, And like, I'm

382
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: not particularly inclined to look to the court to protect

383
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: me for anyone, um and not particularly I don't trust

384
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: the law or spurts enough to really want them to

385
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: be the arbiter of things place free, siege or Yeah,

386
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 1: absolutely not. I mean, obviously I want very council, but um,

387
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: you know, my hope is that we can take carib

388
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: ease whether or not to make the course they're relevant

389
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: will realize the dead type dream. But um, I guess

390
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: this thing, you know, especially with roads, and I was

391
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 1: I was talking to Margaret, a mutual friend, about this.

392
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: The thing that's going to change if we're always overturned. Uh,

393
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: it's really going to be what delusions are available to

394
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: us and how much courage will it take to pursue

395
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: them and what are the potential consequencely right, Yeah, what

396
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: kind of resources it do you need? Um? I think

397
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: in the space of these Supreme Court decisions, some of

398
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: which are genuinely terrible, um, and some of which are

399
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: just reinforcing things that have belonged in the two Yeah,

400
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: you know, our grief and our outraged and are bitter

401
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: popes are not practiced. Um, they're not necessarily useful, right,

402
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: and and even getting super in the leaves of you know,

403
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: what does this opinion actually say? I mean, I think

404
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: that's an interesting but it's and it's good to know

405
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: and to at least have somebody around you know. Um.

406
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: But instead of spending so much time focusing on the

407
00:29:54,440 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: real knit, picky language was being used by the unelected

408
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: God things of the United States. Maybe we start thinking

409
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: a little bit more about what are the material impacts

410
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: that might have and what are ways, what are tools

411
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: that maybe aren't legal tools or at least that are

412
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:24,239
Speaker 1: only legal tools, UM, that might be useful in UM

413
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: picturing the things that we value. And I think that's

414
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: both an important note and a good one to end on.

415
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: Moira Um, I will run one thing by you real quick.

416
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: So I have a plan and I want to I

417
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: want your advice in the constitutionality of this. I would

418
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: like to acquire Fort Bragg. So I'm thinking what I

419
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: do is I go in a Third Amendment case right

420
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: and say that, well, I mean if look, you can't

421
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: what if we just extended the Quartering Act right like

422
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 1: in the you know, could we could we push it

423
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: even further so that nobody can host soldiers and then

424
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: all those military bases are gonna be there's gonna be

425
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: a fire sale. You can't keep soldiers on them, Government's

426
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: not going to keep running them. And then I get

427
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: to own Fort Bragg. How are we doing? Is that

428
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: is that legal? It's the whole end popole that you

429
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: own Fort Bragg. That is one of the end goals.

430
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: I think you should probably cost context that rating. Okay, okay,

431
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: because yeah, you're right, they're probably gonna outbid me anyway, Okay,

432
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: But constitutionally, I'm on solid grounds with the third Right.

433
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: That's bulletproof, you know. Like like many of the questions

434
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: you asked me, the legal questions you asked me, I

435
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: think the answers. Nobody knows, nobody knows. Okay, I'm gonna

436
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do what the n r A did with

437
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: the second but with the Third Amendment. It's going to

438
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: take a couple of decades, but I feel I feel

439
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: good about this course of action. Thank you for putting

440
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: up with me. More you had some stuff you wanted

441
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: to plug at the end of this episode, Here I do.

442
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: I would like us the rep Legal Defense Fund of

443
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: if when how because if we're going to talk about

444
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: row at all, the oh boy, yeah, a fund fund

445
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: which can be found at repro Legal Defense Fund dot org.

446
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: They have a donate page. They're doing amazing work. I'm

447
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: um just incredibly impressed with um. They are also at

448
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: RECRO Legal Defense Funds on Instagram and probably also on Twitter. UM,

449
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: but I don't really understand Twitter, so I'm not going

450
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: to swear to it. That's for the best. We'll check

451
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: that out dot com retro legal fund, So please donate

452
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: to the Reproductive Legal Fund Twitter dot com repro legal Fund.

453
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: By the time this episode drops, we may have the

454
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: row thing. So I know everybody's gearing up, but you

455
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: know this is definitely uh, it's it's it's good to

456
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: help out. We all need to be like Poland because

457
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: we're not going to yank this back on course through

458
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: just hoping that eventually Supreme Court gets better. Well, we're

459
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: gonna wish really hard. It would be nice, it would

460
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: be nice, but I think organizing is probably a more

461
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: effective thing to do in the immediate term. Um, so yeah,

462
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: I thank you, Moira, and um that's the episode. Oh

463
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,959
Speaker 1: it could happen here? Which is the podcast that can say?

464
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: Is I'm Robert Evans with me? Are other people hello?

465
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: Other people? Hi? Hello? Uh so this podcast? Thanks falling

466
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: about part putting back together? YadA, YadA, YadA. Today our guest,

467
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: well not our guest. Our host is uh the inimitable

468
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: Andrew Andrew. Hey, Hey, how's it going? What are we

469
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: talking about today? What are we learning? I'm good? I'm good?

470
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: Um today open to tackle another book kind of Um,

471
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: this one's not fictional like the past two. UM. So

472
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: I do hope to like explore some of those in

473
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 1: the future because I think some good conversations come out

474
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 1: to those. This week, we're gonna be talking about Paulo

475
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: Freire and the pedagogy of the oppressed. Oh yes, for

476
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: those who don't know, Paulo Freire is Brazilian educator and

477
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: one of the leading advocates of Well was Brazilian educator

478
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: and leading advocates of critical pedagogy. Pedagogy is basically like

479
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: the study of education, philosophy of education UM. He was

480
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: born in nine and his experiences kind of led him

481
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: to that path because during his childhood and ad lessons,

482
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: he was falling behind in school because he was poor.

483
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: His poverty and his hunger affected his ability to learn.

484
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: And so as he got older and he got opportunities

485
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: and he was able to study and so on, and

486
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: he basically realized he needs to do more to uplift

487
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: the lives of the poor, improved lives of the poor, UM,

488
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: in order to facilitate better educational outcomes. As he says,

489
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: and were cold, I didn't understand anything because of my hunger.

490
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 1: I wasn't dumb, it wasn't a lack of interest. My

491
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: social condition just didn't allow me to have an education.

492
00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: Experience showed me once again the relationship between social class

493
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: us and knowledge. So as he progressed in his studies

494
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: and his writing and stuff, he eventually contributed to a

495
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 1: philosophy of education which blended classical approaches coming from Plato

496
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: and modern Marxist and post Marxist and anti clonial thinkers.

497
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: When I was reading the book, it really sort of

498
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: struck me. I've got a lot of UM and a

499
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: lot of France found on vibes from his work. He

500
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: died in um r I p um. But his greatest

501
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: contribution UM to me at least and to most people,

502
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: is his book The Pedagogy of the Oppressed. In the book,

503
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: he sort of explores a detailed Marxist class analysis UM

504
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: in the relationship between like the colonize and colonize, the

505
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 1: oppressed and the oppressed, And he talks about the banking

506
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: model of education that traditional pedagogy spouses because it treats

507
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: the students as like this bank, this empty vessel to

508
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: be filled with knowledge. Instead, he argues for a form

509
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: of education, of pedagogy that treats the lunar as a

510
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: co creator in knowledge as far as I'm aware, um,

511
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 1: and I guess it's kind of is illustrated in the

512
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: book itself. But as far as I know, there wasn't

513
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: an anarchist or libertarian socialist of any variety, but he

514
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: still ended up coming to some anarchic conclusions with regard

515
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: to the education system and learning and stuff. I mean,

516
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: anarchists have been writing about, you know, like youth liberation

517
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,240
Speaker 1: and the school system and even experimenting with new models

518
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 1: of schooling for a long time. Um. The Forever Movement,

519
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: for example, experimented with implementing modern schools in UM in

520
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: the US and Spain, and a Goldman was very much

521
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: involved in that process. And UM, I don't think that

522
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: the experiments were necessarily free of error, but I think

523
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: they did a good job of trying something new, trying

524
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 1: something with more liberatory in the spare of education, because

525
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: I mean, for the past several hundred years now, UM,

526
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: we've kind of been going with this sort of um.

527
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: Prussian model of education is very strict, very regimented, very

528
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: divided model of education. The rules UM to sort of ferment,

529
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 1: nationalism and division, class divisions and stuff within the populace.

530
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: So I think that any experimentation in mo libitary and

531
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: direction is a positive. In the preface, um Fair sort

532
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 1: of goes into why this book came about. He's talking

533
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: about his experience as a teacher in Brazil, the times,

534
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: the observations he made well in political exile, and so

535
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: what he realized as a teacher when he was teaching

536
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 1: students is that they had a sort of a fair

537
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 1: of freedom. It's not like a real fair of freedom.

538
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 1: It's more of a fair of the risks associated with

539
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: freedom because of the experiences and stuff that they've had.

540
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: Um What he considers the most vital, however, to the

541
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: education system, it's sort of just establishing conscientious out or

542
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: critical consciousness within students, a consciousness that commits to social

543
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:40,240
Speaker 1: change and human liberation. According to for, the educational model

544
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 1: can only really be successful if people are radicalized through it,

545
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: if people are able to see the issues in their

546
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: current society, think about them, stew upon them, criticize them,

547
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: compare them, and look at ways to solve them. And

548
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 1: if they don't about with that sort of critical consciousness,

549
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: then as well, for not. Basically, the education system is

550
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: kind of spinning on top in mud. I find it

551
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: especially interesting that I ended up reading this when I did, because,

552
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 1: as we've seen in the US, a lot of conversations

553
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: are now attacking anything even approaching critical consciousness. But this,

554
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: you know, who all debate going on about critical race

555
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: theory and this sort of even though critical race theories

556
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: are being taught in primary or secondary education, this attack,

557
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: this full front of attack on anything that resembles critical

558
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: thinking and critical study of history and of the present.

559
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: So in chapter one for makes a case for why

560
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: the pedagogy the press is necessary. He says, a human

561
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: kind central problem is how we a fir more identity

562
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: as human beings. Everyone is trying to reach that sort

563
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: of affirmation, that sort of human identity, that sort of

564
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: human nous um. But oppression and systems of oppression interrupt

565
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: that process. They prevent people from expressing and establishing their

566
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: full humanity. Where they're talking about racism keeping people from

567
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: reaching their full potential, or sexism preventing people or you know,

568
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 1: sa patriarchy with the whole limitations and such puts upon

569
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: people's sexuality and gender expression and gender identification. One of

570
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: these systems of oppression are put in place to restrict

571
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: and confine and bound us below you know, our full potential,

572
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: and so a lot of that and a lot of

573
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: the you know, cultivation and forging of one's awareness of

574
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: you know, the systems around them and how to operate

575
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: within them. To explain in the education system, and so

576
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 1: the education system is should be one of the critical

577
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 1: junctures in which we which our fight for oppressed people.

578
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 1: There's a sort of dehumanization that it could as a

579
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 1: result of oppression, whether it be in the form of

580
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 1: comparing people to animals, as racists offten do, whether it

581
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: be in the form of decreating people to this sort

582
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: of childlike status, which itself is a is a form

583
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: of oppression because the fact that you know, childlikeness and

584
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: youth is considered to be something less than It's just

585
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: another way they where people are oppressed and another way

586
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: in which people are prevented from as certain they're tatomy

587
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 1: and their humanity oppressors. They tend to treat people as

588
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: objects to be possessed, see freedom as threatening, and in turn,

589
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: oppressed people end up becoming alienated from each other through

590
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 1: oppressure and begin to see their oppressors as something to

591
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 1: strive towards for It talks about how they oppressed. The

592
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: whole vision and the whole understanding of what being human

593
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: is is being like oppressors, and so a lot of

594
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: people and you see that even today. You know, um,

595
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 1: when they strive for freedom, they strive to become entrepreneurs.

596
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 1: You know, they strive to become business owners. They strive

597
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: to become billionaires and CEOs and all these sort of

598
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: images of what, you know, what being human looks like.

599
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: Because people are striving to be free, and if the

600
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: only way you can get a measure of freedom is

601
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: by becoming an oppress yourself, and it makes sense a

602
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: lot of oppressive looking to try to do that. Of course,

603
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: as Fair himself says, and the oppresses themselves are not

604
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: fully free either, because by denying the oppressed people their humanity,

605
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: they robbed themselves of humanity. The fight for liberation, as

606
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: Fair argues, must consist of two stages. Reflection on the

607
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: nature of oppression and the concrete action needed to change it,

608
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: and that sort of reading that that that line are paraphrasing,

609
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: but it it reminds me of the process of prefigurative politics,

610
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: where not only are you bringing about the consciousness of

611
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: people to recognize these systems of oppression and understand how

612
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 1: they operate, but the concrete action to change it is

613
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: one that is intended to liked the society that we

614
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: wish to establish in the future. Fare does one um that,

615
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: you know, leaders and stuff must engage in dialogue with

616
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 1: oppressed people rather than becoming like oppressors. But as the

617
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 1: book goes on, I think he relies a bit too

618
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: much on this concept of leaders as well. He wants

619
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,439
Speaker 1: against them existing above the people, but he's still sort

620
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: of upholds that distinction between the leaders and the people.

621
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: As the book progresses, um he begins to compare the

622
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: concept of the banking model to the concept of the

623
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: problem posing model of education, as he calls it. In

624
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 1: the banking model um quote, he the teacher talks about

625
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: reality as if it were motionless, static, compartmentalized, and predictable.

626
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: Where Else he expands upon a topic completely aliens existential

627
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: experience to the students. His task is to fill the

628
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: students with the contents of his narration, contents which are

629
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: detached from reality, disconnected from the totality that engendered them,

630
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: I could give them significance. Words are emptied of their

631
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: concreteness and become a hollow, alienated and alienating verbocity areny

632
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: being that sentence is quite proposed. But on the contrary,

633
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: banking education maintains and even stimulates the contradiction to the

634
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:38,760
Speaker 1: following attitudes and practices, which mirror oppressive society as a whole.

635
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 1: The teacher teachers, and the students are taught. The teacher

636
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 1: knows everything and the student knows nothing. Teacher thinks and

637
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: the students are thought about. Teacher talks and the students

638
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: listen meekly. The teacher disciplines, and the students are disciplined.

639
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: Teacher chooses and enforces his choice, and the students comply.

640
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: The teacher acts, and the students have the illusion of

641
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: acting through the action of the teacher. Teacher chooses the

642
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: program content and the students, who were not consulted, adapt

643
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: to it. The teacher confuses the authority of knowledge with

644
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: his or her own professional authority, which they set in

645
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 1: opposition to the freedom of the students. The teachers the

646
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: subjective the learning process, while the pupils on their objects.

647
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 1: I think um Flaire needed to incorporate some more gender

648
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 1: neutral language and that so I had to kind of

649
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:35,439
Speaker 1: correct him there. Um. But that quote, that that quote

650
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 1: in full, it really reminds me, um of my schooling experience. Um.

651
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,280
Speaker 1: As some people may knew, I was actually home schooled

652
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: for the majority of my learning experience, I actually didn't

653
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 1: know that. Oh well, now you know, Yeah, so I was.

654
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: I was home schooled, um for I would say, the

655
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: majority of my education experience. And then after I went

656
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 1: into college and stuff. But before then, I did, um

657
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: make it through the school system. And even though it

658
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: was a really long time ago, my memories are still

659
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 1: crystal clear of that process. You know. Um, I remember

660
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 1: seeing students being disciplined. Um. I myself was kind of

661
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: a teacher's pet. But that doesn't surprise me. And the

662
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: best possible way, I'm not sure I to take it,

663
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 1: but I'll take it in a good way because Andrew

664
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: not me. That doesn't surprise me. Teachers or cops. Yeah,

665
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 1: this is my pre anarchist days. I wasn't you know,

666
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: I didn't. I wasn't jumping out the booth canal with

667
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 1: a black flag, you know. Unfortunately, a cab includes the

668
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: person who tried to get me to read Catcher in

669
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: the Rye. The Rye was a book and it was

670
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 1: perfectly fine book. I'm just being an asshole. But but like, Andrew,

671
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 1: what are you alluding here? Is that, like stoicism is

672
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: something that is weaponized in the education system. Stoicism, stoicism

673
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: being like no emotion delivering like right right, right, because

674
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: I was thinking the philosophy, but because yeah, you're like

675
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: a vessel for quote unquote facts and knowledge to be

676
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: like injected into you for you to like hold as

677
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 1: as Yeah, it's we're seeing a resurgence in this type

678
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,399
Speaker 1: of saying all the albeit probably a little bit less

679
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 1: eloquently stated in some of the anti schooling anarchist literature

680
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 1: that's been coming out in the past few years, or

681
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: at least has been gaining more traction the past few years.

682
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: M Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because this and that's kind

683
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,760
Speaker 1: of that's kind of the funny thing about it, because

684
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: most people in their school and experience can recall it

685
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: being in some ways negative, even if they look at

686
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,879
Speaker 1: it in a positive light, we can at least even

687
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: if they don't go in that fully radical direction. Most

688
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: people can look at some of the elements to their schooling,

689
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 1: of their education, and so that that wasn't right. You know,

690
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: there's something messed up about that. Even something as simple

691
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: as having to like ask, you know, the teacher to

692
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: go on and use the toilet. It's just this is

693
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 1: those sorts of little ways of control. So, like as

694
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: I was saying, in my school and experience back when

695
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:39,399
Speaker 1: I was in primary school, I was very adorable. I'm

696
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: sure I could guess, but I remember seeing these students

697
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: being disciplined. They had the bell had wrung for you know,

698
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 1: the end of break, and he's supposed to, you know,

699
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: fire back into class. But I think there was a

700
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 1: school next door that was having some kind of event

701
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: and they're playing like music, and so a bunch of

702
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: students in my class, not me, but a bunch of

703
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 1: students in my class were you know, um, dancing at

704
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: the side of the school, enjoying the music, having a

705
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: good time or whatever. Um they heard the bell and

706
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: they didn't go because they were, you know, they were

707
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 1: having a good time. They were like six seven eight um.

708
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 1: But then afterwards the teacher, after you know, I sit

709
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 1: down and stuff, leacher goes and finds them and brings

710
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: them in and this is prior to, at least of

711
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: my knowledge, prior to the corporal punishment being phased out

712
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 1: of school. So I just remember seeing them having to,

713
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: you know, like lay out their hands and receive punishment

714
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 1: for daring to have joy after hours, you know, daring

715
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: to enjoy themselves. Um what it was supposed to be

716
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 1: class time and they're supposed to be in class. I'm

717
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: sure people have similar experiences, at least of a kind

718
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: of punishment uncontroul I mean, this is not the same

719
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 1: kind of punishment, but I think to your point of

720
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: being controlled, like even just like not even being aware

721
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 1: of it, just like being forced to stand up and

722
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 1: say the pledge of allegiance. In America, for example, it

723
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 1: becomes this like repetitive culty thing every morning that you're

724
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: expected to do, and if you don't do it, um

725
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: personal experience, if you refuse to do that, you have

726
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: to go to the principal's office and explain why. And

727
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 1: it happens over and over again. And I think it's

728
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: like you're you're questioned and you're punished even for like thinking,

729
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: not like differently, or questioning not even thinking, just questioning reality.

730
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And in Syria when I was

731
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: I went to school in Syria when I was really small,

732
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: and me and my sister ate really slow and we

733
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: would get hit with a ruler on our hands because

734
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:02,359
Speaker 1: we didn't we didn't finish lunch fast enough. Um, so yeah,

735
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:05,800
Speaker 1: mine isn't that intense. But the school I went to

736
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: when I was a little kid in Oklahoma, number one

737
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: day paddled us. That was legal as a public school.

738
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,359
Speaker 1: But my first grade teacher was obsessed with the fact

739
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 1: that like it was bad to be left handed, and

740
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:19,800
Speaker 1: you know, she couldn't. She couldn't do the ship that

741
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: they used to do right. They used to like funk

742
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 1: kids up for using their left hands. But she would

743
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 1: every single day like chide me and tell me that

744
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: I should use my right hand to write and stuff,

745
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:31,359
Speaker 1: that it wasn't like proper, that it was like bad

746
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 1: that I could if you if you if you're not aware,

747
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: if you're not left handed, when you're like do stuff

748
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,320
Speaker 1: with a pencil and you're left handed, you get a

749
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 1: bunch of like pencil stuff on your on the side

750
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 1: of your hand. Right. It's just like because of the

751
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 1: way that unless you're using like those weird left handed

752
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 1: notebooks and ship, which no one ever has UM and

753
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 1: she would like she gave me so much ship for

754
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: being dirty because like I would get stuff on my hand.

755
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: It was just like when I tell people that, it's

756
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,959
Speaker 1: like really, this was like the nineties. Yeah, there's there's

757
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: a few of those folks left. I think she was

758
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: extremely Catholic um and I know none seems to go

759
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 1: on that stuff. I didn't know that Catholic people cared

760
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 1: about the left handed thing. Catholic Catholic schools. You yeah, yeah, yeah,

761
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that, like it's I don't think there's anything.

762
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: And like the Catechism about not being left handed right right,

763
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 1: I mean like in some very strict Muslim culture, a

764
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 1: lot of it is like phased out. But for example,

765
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 1: your left hand isn't meant to be used as the

766
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 1: primary hand because it's like a dirty hand, like the

767
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 1: one you wipe yourself with. Yea, yeah, there's a lot.

768
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 1: But like I know you were left handed though, yikes.

769
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 1: Oh yes, yeah, yikes, thank you, thank you. You should

770
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,759
Speaker 1: be concerned. I have to makes a number of things frustrating,

771
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:54,800
Speaker 1: like shearing sheep anyway, whatever, M well, everything is designed

772
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 1: for right handed people, for sure like it has everything

773
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: it is you try to but you are the master, right, Okay, sorry,

774
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 1: speaking of hands just how the curiosity? Did you all

775
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: have the hand up hand out experience? Hand out? What's

776
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 1: hand out? Basically? Um, it's just sort of a tool

777
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: you su just sort of a sort of repetitive kind

778
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:21,320
Speaker 1: of follow instructions kind of thing. So like if the

779
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 1: class getting too rowdies, like hands up, hands out, hands up,

780
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 1: hands out, and the teacher does not stop saying it

781
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: until everyone is quiet down, and it's just like like

782
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 1: a robot. Just reason and where I don't think I've

783
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 1: experienced that. I mean you did, Um, I wasn't an

784
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: assistant teacher at one point, and for very very young children.

785
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: I'm talking like four to five year olds, And I

786
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 1: understand the frustration of like you're just trying to get

787
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 1: something done and everyone's going a while now. They just

788
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:56,400
Speaker 1: had snacks or whatever, and everyone's kind of while now.

789
00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 1: But I think that says about like the methods we're

790
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 1: using than about the showering themselves. You know, it's all

791
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 1: about like you have to you should adjust more to

792
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: like their cycles and their needs, their stage, rather than

793
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,320
Speaker 1: trying to force and shove them into this sort of

794
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 1: like robotic Yeah, yeah, totally. It's yeah, they're allowed to

795
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 1: actually develop naturally or like be themselves in a setting

796
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 1: like that exactly. I think what happens that kind of

797
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:33,320
Speaker 1: throws me is that h people have these experiences, you know,

798
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 1: traumatic and not as traumatic in the education system a

799
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 1: lot of people, but some people they come out radicalized

800
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 1: by it, and other people end up being the like

801
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:52,240
Speaker 1: most stringe and most passionate advocates of it. Like even

802
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: like this Catholic school teacher you're talking about, Robert, Like,

803
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: at some point she was also in the education system,

804
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 1: and it really makes me wonder, like what she went

805
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 1: through to have to come up with that kind of mindset. Yeah,

806
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:09,799
Speaker 1: I mean I think she'd grown up in Oklahoma too,

807
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 1: so it must have been a nightmare like everything in

808
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 1: that state. Yeah, Like why does it have a panhandle anyway? Um,

809
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 1: I mean, the there is a reason for that, and

810
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: it's not fun, but okay, I'm assuming it's slavery, any

811
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 1: fucked up geographic thing going on in the South. The

812
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 1: reason is generally slavery. Yeah, right, right, right right, And

813
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 1: so she spends a lot of time talking about this

814
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 1: banking model and we could go on and on about it.

815
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time just talking about the

816
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,280
Speaker 1: education system and all my problems with it, and at

817
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 1: some point I would like to do an episode about

818
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: differ rare schools and out of how those sort of transpired.

819
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 1: But what FIR proposes um as an alternative is the

820
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: problem posing model, which is basically, through dialogue, the teacher

821
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 1: and the students ceased to exist. The teacher of the

822
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: students and the students of the teachers ceased to exist.

823
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 1: So instead of there being these two separate categories, they

824
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 1: are teacher, students and student teachers. There's no separation anymore

825
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: between the one who teaches and the one who has taught. Rather,

826
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 1: there's a dialogue between the two as they become part

827
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 1: of this process where all of them can grow. You know,

828
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 1: you let go of this sort of authoritarian arrangements and

829
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 1: allow people to teach and be taught, two learn and

830
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 1: be learned to a really draw out what it is

831
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 1: that we have to gain from each other. Rather than

832
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 1: being sort of docile listeners, the students and the teachers,

833
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 1: the student teachers teacher students, they become co investigators in dialogue.

834
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 1: They become critics. They become radicals who are able to

835
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 1: open up and depathologize the way that reality works with

836
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 1: human beings exist in the world. Banking education tends to

837
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 1: inhibit creativity and try to domesticate our consciousness through after

838
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 1: when I was talking about human investigation the other day, um,

839
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 1: But in contrast, in the problem posing model tries to

840
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 1: it really bases itself on creativity and stimulates, rather than domestication,

841
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 1: a sort of a full flourishing of what someone could

842
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 1: be unbound and unshackled. So, in summary, banking theory is immobilizing.

843
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:22,440
Speaker 1: It's it's fixating. It doesn't acknowledge people as people but

844
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 1: rather objects, whereas the problem posing model it takes people's historicity,

845
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 1: it takes people's humanity as their starting point upon which

846
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 1: they can grow and learn from each other. I think

847
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:39,440
Speaker 1: that's what frustrated me the most about the education system

848
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 1: in the time that I was in it, and even

849
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 1: when I got back in it in college, even though

850
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 1: it's not as bad in some ways, because you know,

851
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: in college they tend to emphasize dialogue a bit more

852
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 1: on certain classes. But I find the issue is that

853
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 1: there's this assumption in you know, the earlier sections of school,

854
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 1: in the secondary school and primary school and even preschool

855
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 1: that the children, the youth, you know, they're not there

856
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 1: to have anything to add. They're just there to regurgitate,

857
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 1: to to study and to repeat what they've studied for approval,

858
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 1: not just something I definitely did back in the day.

859
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 1: If what's lacking is dialogue, a dialogue that requires you know,

860
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 1: hoop and trust and critical thinking, then liberation, you would

861
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: also be lacking. They can't be dialogue without love for

862
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 1: the world and for people, and for knowledge and for

863
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 1: bring that knowledge out to people. So as for our says,

864
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 1: you know, love is at the same time the foundation

865
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:59,840
Speaker 1: of dialogue and dialogue itself. On the other hand, that

866
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 1: kind of exists without humility. The naming of the world

867
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:07,640
Speaker 1: through which people constantly recreate that world cannot be an

868
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 1: act of arrogance. I remember incountering a lot of arrogance

869
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:16,960
Speaker 1: teachers and lecturers and stuff in my time. To the

870
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: education system, um are being condescended to multiple occasions, and

871
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: that's the thing nobody likes being condescended to. But condescension

872
01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 1: is kind of the default way in which we engage

873
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:43,000
Speaker 1: with young people. Just sort of there's this projected ignorance

874
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:44,720
Speaker 1: upon them, is that they have nothing of value to

875
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 1: add or to share. Another contrary, you know, we all

876
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 1: have something to contribute. If we all closed off, and

877
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,479
Speaker 1: if we are closed off to the contributions of others,

878
01:02:56,600 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 1: we can't engage in dialogue with them. If we are fearful,

879
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 1: if we are um considering people to be like inferior

880
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 1: in some ways, if we cannot embrace people as equals,

881
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 1: and how can we engage in dialogue with them? I

882
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 1: think there's a beauty in the way that he reflects

883
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 1: on dialogue, and he goes on and on about it

884
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 1: for quite a while. At one point, he says that

885
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 1: dialogue requires an intense faith in humankind, faith in their

886
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 1: power to make and remake, to create and recreate, faith

887
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 1: in their vocation to be more fully human, which is

888
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 1: not the privilege of an elite, but the birth right

889
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: of all. And so, finally, when he's talking about action

890
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 1: and how um this sort of change is brought about,

891
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 1: he divides cultural action into two kinds, dialogical action and

892
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 1: anti dieological action. While the pressers use antideological action to

893
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:02,640
Speaker 1: protect their power and to separate people, radicals can use

894
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 1: dialogical action to bring people together in the struggle for

895
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 1: freedom as a different methods of anticheological action. Through conquest,

896
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 1: through divide and rule, through manipulation, through cultural invasion, oppressors

897
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 1: were able to put the oppressed in the predicament of

898
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 1: there in. You know, the oppressed wouldn't be the oppressed

899
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 1: if not for the oppressors oppressing them. That's kind of

900
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:34,920
Speaker 1: self explanatory. Um. But in contrast, radicals from among the oppressed,

901
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 1: using biological action, using cooperation, unity, organization, and cultural synthesis

902
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:47,440
Speaker 1: are able to rise above and push back against this

903
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:55,560
Speaker 1: oppression and to allow education to flourish among all as.

904
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 1: I think that's the beauty of the text, um the

905
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:04,560
Speaker 1: who that it did abuse in people to really bring

906
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: about these changes. And I think it was a good read,

907
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 1: five outs of five excellent. And it's not very long, right,

908
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:17,920
Speaker 1: it's like under two from what I yes, yes, it's

909
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:23,360
Speaker 1: like four short chapters. Rely sure. I know back when

910
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:28,080
Speaker 1: you were talking about how um people are sectors of

911
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:30,800
Speaker 1: the right specifically are so set on attacking like anything

912
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 1: related to like critical theory or critical race theory. Um. I.

913
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 1: The the book was was banned like like a decade

914
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 1: and like over a decade ago from the Arizona Schools

915
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 1: for teaching students that they are oppressed. Uh yeah, that's

916
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 1: that's how you know, that's to be expected. It's a

917
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 1: good book. Yeah yeah, so that's anyway, just just a

918
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 1: fun fun fact there. We can't we can't have kids

919
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 1: knowing that, uh, they have shared interests as a group, um,

920
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 1: and that adults are mistreating them comprehensively. That's good. Yeah.

921
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 1: God just reminded me of so many just moments that

922
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 1: mean teachers like really got into it or like your

923
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:21,120
Speaker 1: teachers that were condescending that I hated. I have to

924
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:22,920
Speaker 1: really go through the role decks and try to vent

925
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 1: this out. Now after we finished recording, Well, listen, if

926
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:33,520
Speaker 1: you're a child, why are you listening to this? Rise

927
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:38,880
Speaker 1: up in rebellion? Uh? Destroy the adults. Their joints are terrible.

928
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 1: Hit him in the knees. They won't recover. My joints

929
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: are terrible. Exactly, some fucking nine year old whack you

930
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:51,520
Speaker 1: in the knee with like down, You're out of the game. No,

931
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 1: I know my kids, my kne would break. Yeah, embrace

932
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: the ancient traditions, make les, and go for the fucking joints. Yeah,

933
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 1: children of the world, you have nothing to lose, which

934
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: your bed times. That's that's the episode. Andrew, should we

935
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:31,040
Speaker 1: record this episode? Sure, let's start. I'm sure. I'm sure

936
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:33,240
Speaker 1: we can use some of that is the opening. Hi,

937
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 1: welcome to It could happen here the podcast that is

938
01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 1: about medical ethics in the eighteen sixties, not today but

939
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 1: fair Yeah, no to today today. It's it's me because

940
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 1: we're long and we're doing an episode about inflation and

941
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 1: speaking of medical ethics while speaking of kinks. Actually, the

942
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 1: moment I said that, I was like, I have opened

943
01:07:56,440 --> 01:08:00,360
Speaker 1: myself up for that was some of the phil outside

944
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:03,080
Speaker 1: That was from some of the first weird interport Internet

945
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 1: point I came apart. It was specifically the cast of

946
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:09,920
Speaker 1: duck Tails being like, okay, let's get to the topic

947
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 1: of the episode. That is, this episode is now about

948
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:20,120
Speaker 1: duck Tails, inflation, fetish pornography. That is enough, pre rebel Christopher,

949
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:23,040
Speaker 1: what do you have for us today? Yeah, so we're

950
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:28,360
Speaker 1: talking about inflation. Um, we're talking about economic inflation. To

951
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:31,680
Speaker 1: be fair, this is somebody was making money off of

952
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:36,800
Speaker 1: that inflation. I'll tell you that much. God, I mean

953
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:40,760
Speaker 1: the one thing duct Tails actually does crossover because of

954
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:44,720
Speaker 1: Scrooge McDuck and his giant and his giant and that

955
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:47,840
Speaker 1: actually it does. That's right, I can tell you right

956
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:50,160
Speaker 1: now that's not the only thing about him that was inflated.

957
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:58,640
Speaker 1: Oh boy, talking about is dick. Okay, let's let's keep it,

958
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 1: keep it on tracked. Okay, So all right, all right,

959
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 1: if people are inflation, it's not good. It's pretty high.

960
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:08,800
Speaker 1: It's I probably should have looked up the inflation rate,

961
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 1: isn't it, Like, yeah, I think it's it keeps point six. Yeah. Yeah.

962
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:18,400
Speaker 1: But every time someone says it's this or it's that,

963
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:20,519
Speaker 1: people are like, well no, but they also changed these

964
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 1: these and these indicators five years ago and these other

965
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:24,560
Speaker 1: ones ten years ago, so really it would be this,

966
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:30,120
Speaker 1: and there's judging who's securate about that? This? This is

967
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 1: the thing. I didn't put this in the episode, but

968
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:34,800
Speaker 1: there's a thing that if you study economics you will

969
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:37,960
Speaker 1: realize pretty quickly is that all of the like basically

970
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 1: all of the aconstancy. So we have our fucking bullshit

971
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 1: and they're like are basically they're they're they're really really fake,

972
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 1: Like yeah, like we we don't like what one of

973
01:09:46,280 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 1: one of the big ones that you know. Is like

974
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:51,880
Speaker 1: one of the underlying things that makes all economics fake

975
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:54,519
Speaker 1: is that no one knows how to actually calculate the

976
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:57,800
Speaker 1: value of of just like a factory. Like like if

977
01:09:57,800 --> 01:09:59,320
Speaker 1: if you have like a bundle of goods, right, and

978
01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:01,360
Speaker 1: they're not the same thing, so I don't know, you

979
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:04,680
Speaker 1: have two factories they make different things. Actually figuring out

980
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 1: what the value of that is is like fucking impossible,

981
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:11,160
Speaker 1: and the like the way that it's done in like

982
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 1: if if you look at like like there are these

983
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:18,599
Speaker 1: like the um producer statistical animals, right, and the values

984
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:20,439
Speaker 1: that are in the like the un statistical animals are

985
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:22,800
Speaker 1: literally them guessing because because the thing is like the

986
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:25,800
Speaker 1: value depending on like the actual value of the thing

987
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:28,479
Speaker 1: changes right depending on where it is, unlike a supply demanker,

988
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah. And so they literally just tell

989
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:33,560
Speaker 1: the people who are doing the econometrics, you just like

990
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:36,360
Speaker 1: pick a pick a random like price that they that

991
01:10:36,479 --> 01:10:40,839
Speaker 1: that that they think is equilibrium. So it's it's completely bullshit.

992
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 1: It's it's it's bullshit like literally all the way down.

993
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:48,240
Speaker 1: It's nonsense. All of the indexes are wrong. Uh yeah, Unfortunately,

994
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:53,599
Speaker 1: the field of economics doesn't really care about this that much,

995
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:55,639
Speaker 1: so we're gonna have to sort of take them seriously.

996
01:10:56,400 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 1: And the thing I specifically want to talk about today

997
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:02,560
Speaker 1: was that there was a really interesting paper that was

998
01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:05,360
Speaker 1: produced by two economists at the DC Federal Reserve UM,

999
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:09,599
Speaker 1: David Rattner and j sim about why inflation happens, which

1000
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:11,840
Speaker 1: is called Who Killed the Phillips Curve and Murder Mystery,

1001
01:11:12,720 --> 01:11:14,800
Speaker 1: and which we're talking about this for two reasons. One

1002
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 1: one because it's funny, because I what is going to

1003
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 1: happen over the course of this paper is that the

1004
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:25,160
Speaker 1: Federal Reserve has combat Federal Reserve has discovered Marxism, and

1005
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:29,439
Speaker 1: they are going to attempt to solve mystery of inflation

1006
01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:34,760
Speaker 1: by by applying by by by applying marks. And the

1007
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:36,719
Speaker 1: second thing, the second meason I want to talk about

1008
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:38,719
Speaker 1: this is that it reveals something that's very very important

1009
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:42,520
Speaker 1: about the current political situation, which is that both economists

1010
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 1: and like the rest of the ruling class in general,

1011
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:48,559
Speaker 1: do not understand what inflation is or what they sort

1012
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:50,360
Speaker 1: of under kind of understand what it is, they don't

1013
01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 1: know what causes it. UM. And before we go on here,

1014
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:58,599
Speaker 1: I should like explain what inflation is because most people

1015
01:11:59,040 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 1: I don't know the the way I gott talked about

1016
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:03,439
Speaker 1: I talked about about this with Garrison like a few

1017
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:06,559
Speaker 1: days ago about like like the way people get taught

1018
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:09,360
Speaker 1: about inflation is that inflation is when like your money

1019
01:12:09,479 --> 01:12:12,360
Speaker 1: is worth less. Yeah, when when the government prints more

1020
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:15,719
Speaker 1: money so to each individual dollar is worth less because

1021
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:18,360
Speaker 1: it's more of them circulating. Yeah. Yeah, and and this

1022
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:24,560
Speaker 1: is like this is this is propaganda. Um, that is

1023
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:27,599
Speaker 1: not what inflation is. Inflation is literally just when prices

1024
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:31,479
Speaker 1: go up. And if you think about it, like, okay,

1025
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:33,559
Speaker 1: that that's kind of the same thing sort of because

1026
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 1: if prices go up, like your your you know, your

1027
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:40,760
Speaker 1: your dollars are worth less money, right, But mostly inflation

1028
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:44,120
Speaker 1: isn't about the amount of money becoming less. Mostly it's

1029
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:48,000
Speaker 1: about something happens that makes things cost more. Um, and

1030
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:50,000
Speaker 1: you know and and likely yeah, like the it is

1031
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:51,960
Speaker 1: possible for you to get inflation because the government printing

1032
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:56,040
Speaker 1: too much money, but like mostly are like symbiotic, right,

1033
01:12:56,360 --> 01:12:58,640
Speaker 1: government with more money because prices are going up so

1034
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:01,559
Speaker 1: that people need more money in circulation to buy things. Um,

1035
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:04,840
Speaker 1: you saw this happen a lot with the COVID pandemic. Um.

1036
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 1: So it's it's that both these things kind of feed

1037
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:11,840
Speaker 1: off each other and contributes of But but I think

1038
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 1: something that's important to understand about this is that if

1039
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:16,720
Speaker 1: if you look into the actual econ stuff, like the

1040
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:18,760
Speaker 1: supply of money, like how much money there is in

1041
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:20,960
Speaker 1: the world, has very very little to do with inflation.

1042
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 1: It only really has effects inflation when you're doing with

1043
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:26,840
Speaker 1: like I don't like nineteen thirties twenties Germany or like

1044
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:29,720
Speaker 1: China after World War Two, where just there's literally just

1045
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 1: like you know, the government prints so much money that

1046
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:33,560
Speaker 1: like like my my I have my family has a

1047
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:36,400
Speaker 1: bunch of stories about like literally carrying out baskets full

1048
01:13:36,439 --> 01:13:38,599
Speaker 1: of money in China to like buy a train ticket

1049
01:13:38,760 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 1: because but like everybody knows about buy maur Germany too

1050
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 1: is like the weird arrows full of cash and stuff. Yeah,

1051
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:48,599
Speaker 1: but this stuff that's actually it's really rare, and it's

1052
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 1: like the reason everyone knows. But when it happens is

1053
01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:53,120
Speaker 1: that it's only happened. It's happened like four or five times,

1054
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:56,759
Speaker 1: and mostly that's not that's not what why inflation happens.

1055
01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:58,719
Speaker 1: And if you look at inflation right now. For example,

1056
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:00,519
Speaker 1: there's the prices of like a whole bunch of stuff,

1057
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:04,120
Speaker 1: from like food to like microprocessors are going up because

1058
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:06,640
Speaker 1: a it's harder to produce things because of COVID b

1059
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:09,280
Speaker 1: our Supply chains are collapsing, and see because Russian invaded

1060
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:13,840
Speaker 1: Ukraine and like absolutely annihilated an enormous portion of the

1061
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 1: global food supply. And this that stuff causes prices to

1062
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:19,840
Speaker 1: go up, right because now it's harder to make a thing,

1063
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 1: And because it's harder to make the thing, that thing

1064
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:27,080
Speaker 1: costs more. And this has you know, this has literally

1065
01:14:27,160 --> 01:14:29,240
Speaker 1: nothing to do with with the money supply, right, Like

1066
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:30,680
Speaker 1: it doesn't have anything to do with how much money

1067
01:14:30,680 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 1: there is in a circulation. UM. And there's another reason

1068
01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:35,040
Speaker 1: that that that will get into kind of at the

1069
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:37,800
Speaker 1: end that inflation happens that is not also has nothing

1070
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:39,880
Speaker 1: to do with money, which is that corporations just do

1071
01:14:40,040 --> 01:14:42,439
Speaker 1: price markups because they know people will pay for it.

1072
01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:49,160
Speaker 1: And that's that's happening to UM. But having an explanation

1073
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:53,360
Speaker 1: of like why inflation is happening is really really politically important,

1074
01:14:53,439 --> 01:14:55,880
Speaker 1: even even if the explanation that you have is completely wrong,

1075
01:14:56,880 --> 01:15:01,559
Speaker 1: it it allows you you do really powerful things politically.

1076
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 1: On Like, one of the ways that neoliberalism sort of

1077
01:15:04,360 --> 01:15:07,080
Speaker 1: took power is that in in in the in the

1078
01:15:07,160 --> 01:15:10,479
Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, especially in sort of sort of the

1079
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 1: the seventies in particular, both both in academia and a

1080
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:19,000
Speaker 1: sort of politics written large. There's this problem where you

1081
01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 1: have a bunch of these old Keynesian economists who are

1082
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:24,400
Speaker 1: like Kensians are like they're big on like using government

1083
01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:26,439
Speaker 1: spending to keep the economy running, and like you get

1084
01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 1: a lot of welfare programs. But yeah, it was like, okay,

1085
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:31,680
Speaker 1: you can avoid crises by having the government spending. But

1086
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:35,160
Speaker 1: the problem is that like they couldn't explain why inflation

1087
01:15:35,240 --> 01:15:38,240
Speaker 1: was happening in the seventies. Um, And this was because

1088
01:15:38,320 --> 01:15:40,479
Speaker 1: the Kenyans working the Kensians are working out something called

1089
01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:42,880
Speaker 1: the Phillips curve. And we have to do a little

1090
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:45,800
Speaker 1: bit of econ bullshit. But it's not that complicated. I

1091
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:49,640
Speaker 1: promise I survived it, so it'll be fine. So the

1092
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:52,720
Speaker 1: Phillips curve says that like the closer you get to

1093
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:55,400
Speaker 1: full employment, and like the lower the unemployment rate gets,

1094
01:15:55,439 --> 01:15:58,240
Speaker 1: the higher inflation rigettes. And this this sort of really

1095
01:15:58,240 --> 01:16:01,000
Speaker 1: starts to kick in around from like five percent unemployment

1096
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:03,519
Speaker 1: to like four percent to three percent unemployment. Uh, the

1097
01:16:03,720 --> 01:16:08,280
Speaker 1: the inflation rate like spikes. And you know that the

1098
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 1: reason this is supposed to happen is because the lower

1099
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:14,680
Speaker 1: the lower the unemployment rate is, Uh, wages start to

1100
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:16,560
Speaker 1: rise because as there's lots of people who' unemployed, you

1101
01:16:16,560 --> 01:16:17,880
Speaker 1: have to pay them more money to get them to work.

1102
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:24,040
Speaker 1: And yeah, so this is and and the theory behind this,

1103
01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:26,400
Speaker 1: right is that like what wages increasing is what is

1104
01:16:26,479 --> 01:16:28,760
Speaker 1: what causes inflation happened because it makes everything costs more.

1105
01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 1: Now there's a simple and obvious this is like, this

1106
01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:35,639
Speaker 1: is a very simple and obvious solutions. So the problem

1107
01:16:35,680 --> 01:16:39,000
Speaker 1: of why like inflation happens and like all simple and

1108
01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:42,519
Speaker 1: obvious solutions, it is also wrong. The Philips curve does

1109
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:45,760
Speaker 1: not explain inflation. I'm gonna I'm gonna refer everyone in

1110
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 1: the chat to this tweet that I made, and I

1111
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 1: want you to look at exhibit A, which is the

1112
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:54,080
Speaker 1: Phillips curve, And then I want you to look at

1113
01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:58,080
Speaker 1: Exhibit B, which is I actually plotted unemployment versus inflation

1114
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:05,120
Speaker 1: in the US from like now seen, and I want

1115
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:07,600
Speaker 1: to get a description of what the second graph looks like,

1116
01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:09,760
Speaker 1: because it's supposed to look like a curve. Well, so

1117
01:17:10,360 --> 01:17:13,080
Speaker 1: the first, the first graph we have we have an

1118
01:17:13,360 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 1: excite an X Y graph of the Phillips curve starting

1119
01:17:16,560 --> 01:17:21,200
Speaker 1: at eight percent closer to the y axis and then

1120
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:26,560
Speaker 1: swooping down and then flattening out at on the X

1121
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:31,720
Speaker 1: axis for the unemployment rate versus the inflation right. And

1122
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:36,040
Speaker 1: then for the next graph, we have, Um, what's not

1123
01:17:36,160 --> 01:17:43,439
Speaker 1: a curve? What is instead inflation and unemployment graphed um,

1124
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:49,000
Speaker 1: except it's zig zagging everywhere like dark sides omega beams. Um,

1125
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:52,280
Speaker 1: it is not, in fact doing a curve. My my,

1126
01:17:52,479 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 1: my favorite thing about this is that um, like multiple

1127
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 1: multiple like, and this us with both unemployment and inflation. Uh,

1128
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:04,759
Speaker 1: there are multiple unemployment rates that are associated with different

1129
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:08,160
Speaker 1: inflation rates and multiple inflation rates that that are all

1130
01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:12,560
Speaker 1: that that generate two different rates of unemployment. It's it's incredible.

1131
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:15,840
Speaker 1: It is it is, it is it is a it

1132
01:18:15,960 --> 01:18:19,479
Speaker 1: is an is an absolute sort of monument to how

1133
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:23,080
Speaker 1: much this stuff doesn't work. And there's a really good

1134
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:26,080
Speaker 1: reply to your graft tweet that says economists of the

1135
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:30,800
Speaker 1: modern day court astrologers, it's basically true, like, which is

1136
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:39,320
Speaker 1: funny astrologers, though we're probably right more often that's true. Well,

1137
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:41,800
Speaker 1: I mean they're simply guessing, is it a good idea

1138
01:18:41,880 --> 01:18:44,680
Speaker 1: to invade this country or not? Fifty fifty odds it

1139
01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:47,800
Speaker 1: works out for you, right if you're if you're trying

1140
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:51,080
Speaker 1: to predict, like I don't know the SMP five D,

1141
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:55,760
Speaker 1: there's a lot more variables. Yeah, and and this is

1142
01:18:55,840 --> 01:18:58,080
Speaker 1: this is one of the things that like, okay, if

1143
01:18:58,160 --> 01:19:00,679
Speaker 1: if you can be the person who like walks into

1144
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:04,000
Speaker 1: a lecture and goes the emperor has no clothes, you

1145
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:07,479
Speaker 1: can like attain immediate ultimate power because again this stuff

1146
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:10,599
Speaker 1: is like so it's so it's so trivially and easily

1147
01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:17,479
Speaker 1: like falsifiable that like I you know, like built in

1148
01:19:17,560 --> 01:19:21,000
Speaker 1: Friedman is able to do this, and you know, okay,

1149
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:23,600
Speaker 1: so I actually about false curve, the Phillips curve that

1150
01:19:23,640 --> 01:19:25,240
Speaker 1: like I showed you that it's like a curve. It's

1151
01:19:25,280 --> 01:19:27,040
Speaker 1: like a very simple one. There's all of these really

1152
01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:32,599
Speaker 1: convoluted like modifications to it. Um there's you know, if

1153
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:34,479
Speaker 1: you look like the new the new kynesi En Phillips

1154
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:36,120
Speaker 1: curve or whatever they they've done, they've got a bunch

1155
01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:37,880
Speaker 1: of math to it to try to like make it

1156
01:19:38,040 --> 01:19:42,120
Speaker 1: kind of work. Um, the problem is that it doesn't work. Uh,

1157
01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:45,000
Speaker 1: there's there there's a there's another Phillips curve that's been

1158
01:19:45,040 --> 01:19:46,599
Speaker 1: that was like modified, but the NEI by the new

1159
01:19:46,640 --> 01:19:50,200
Speaker 1: classical economists and the new classical economists were like, this

1160
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:52,200
Speaker 1: thing doesn't work. Okay, here's some modifications you have to

1161
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:56,800
Speaker 1: put in, but that curve also doesn't work. Uh. And

1162
01:19:56,920 --> 01:19:59,519
Speaker 1: you know, and this is a real problem, right because Okay,

1163
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:03,200
Speaker 1: so if if if this inflation explanation of why inflation

1164
01:20:03,240 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 1: happens doesn't work, like what is actually happening. Um. Milton Friedman,

1165
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:09,720
Speaker 1: who sort of like takes the the economic scene by

1166
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:12,560
Speaker 1: storm by like predicting a lot of the inflation in

1167
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 1: the seventies and like sort of having an answer to it.

1168
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:19,000
Speaker 1: Is his his argument is that inflation is they print

1169
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:23,160
Speaker 1: too much money in there's inflation. And this is kind

1170
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:26,920
Speaker 1: of a gross oversimplification of of what his actual point is.

1171
01:20:27,040 --> 01:20:30,880
Speaker 1: But it's it's it's it's more true than any of

1172
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:34,360
Speaker 1: like Freedman's over simplifications. So I'm just I'm just gonna

1173
01:20:34,439 --> 01:20:36,960
Speaker 1: believe it at that And this is what the federal

1174
01:20:37,040 --> 01:20:39,599
Speaker 1: reserve and like pull Fulker used to try to try

1175
01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:43,240
Speaker 1: to fight inflation nineteen seventy nine. Uh. He Volker does

1176
01:20:43,360 --> 01:20:45,320
Speaker 1: is he just tries to massively reduce the money supply.

1177
01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:49,360
Speaker 1: The problem is that this didn't work like inflation in

1178
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:52,360
Speaker 1: like inflation is still like above temper time. I think

1179
01:20:52,400 --> 01:20:54,720
Speaker 1: it's bikes to like like fift percent or something like

1180
01:20:54,840 --> 01:21:01,360
Speaker 1: into like nineteen four so and and just based on

1181
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:04,160
Speaker 1: how much larger Huey, Dewey and Louis got sometimes two

1182
01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:11,840
Speaker 1: or three. Do you know who else wants? Oh boy,

1183
01:21:13,240 --> 01:21:16,720
Speaker 1: that's right, Garrison. All of our sponsors are into duck

1184
01:21:16,800 --> 01:21:20,840
Speaker 1: Tales inflation fetish pornography. This is it could happen here

1185
01:21:20,960 --> 01:21:24,320
Speaker 1: a podcast sponsored by the concept of masturbating to the

1186
01:21:24,439 --> 01:21:29,080
Speaker 1: cast of duck tails getting inflated by bicycle pumps. Oh

1187
01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:35,840
Speaker 1: we're back. Well I've done my part. Yeah, so okay,

1188
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:38,760
Speaker 1: So so we're left off right. There's there's a bunch

1189
01:21:38,760 --> 01:21:42,160
Speaker 1: of inflation happening. Some of it is happening to DuckTales characters,

1190
01:21:42,240 --> 01:21:44,519
Speaker 1: most of it is happening to the economy. Uh. Paul

1191
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:48,240
Speaker 1: Volker has tried to stop the inflation by like making

1192
01:21:48,280 --> 01:21:50,559
Speaker 1: there be less money and this has done nothing other

1193
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:55,400
Speaker 1: than like dramatically increasing unemployment rate. Now, the problem with

1194
01:21:55,600 --> 01:21:58,840
Speaker 1: again freeman sort of explanation of of inflation is that

1195
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:01,880
Speaker 1: inflation assistance to the eighties and it only stops after

1196
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:08,200
Speaker 1: insert foreshadowing noise here. Uh, Reagan crushes the unions and

1197
01:22:08,520 --> 01:22:12,679
Speaker 1: were is to solve inflation, we should stop all unions.

1198
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:17,519
Speaker 1: That is your official position. No wow, okay, but this,

1199
01:22:17,720 --> 01:22:19,120
Speaker 1: this is this is part of the position of the

1200
01:22:19,160 --> 01:22:22,760
Speaker 1: Federal of the Marxist Federal Reserve. So well, we will

1201
01:22:22,760 --> 01:22:25,160
Speaker 1: get there a second. So alright, alright. So, so the

1202
01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:27,639
Speaker 1: thing I've been describing that that Freeman is pushing about

1203
01:22:27,640 --> 01:22:30,680
Speaker 1: the money's way. This is called monitorism, and monitorism is

1204
01:22:30,800 --> 01:22:33,000
Speaker 1: like the fakest theory of inflation, like it's it's a

1205
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:35,080
Speaker 1: it's a theory of inflation so fake that like even

1206
01:22:35,160 --> 01:22:38,680
Speaker 1: other like even other like neo classical economists don't accept it,

1207
01:22:38,760 --> 01:22:41,479
Speaker 1: like none of the other different neoliberal schools of economics,

1208
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:42,920
Speaker 1: like every single one of them look at this and

1209
01:22:43,040 --> 01:22:45,960
Speaker 1: was like this is nonsense, Like what what are you doing?

1210
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:49,960
Speaker 1: But you know, so okay. So though it's like it's

1211
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:56,439
Speaker 1: like the TikTok astrology compared to the neoliberal court astrology. Yeah,

1212
01:22:56,840 --> 01:22:58,800
Speaker 1: it's it's it's all. It's like, it's it's it's somehow

1213
01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:00,680
Speaker 1: an even faker x when they of this. But you

1214
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:03,160
Speaker 1: know this, this brings us back to like where we started,

1215
01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:05,920
Speaker 1: which is that like, okay, so if the monitorist stuff

1216
01:23:05,960 --> 01:23:09,320
Speaker 1: doesn't work, and the Phillips curve also doesn't work, Uh,

1217
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:13,519
Speaker 1: what is causing inflation? And the answer from inside of

1218
01:23:13,600 --> 01:23:16,040
Speaker 1: the like the actual field of economics is that nobody knows. Um,

1219
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:20,360
Speaker 1: here's Daniel k Rollo, who was the former Federal was

1220
01:23:20,560 --> 01:23:23,639
Speaker 1: a former Federal Reserve Bank governor, and was a member

1221
01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:26,960
Speaker 1: of the Federal Reserve Board. So he's a he's a

1222
01:23:27,160 --> 01:23:30,479
Speaker 1: very very high ranking like guy inside the sphere of

1223
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:33,759
Speaker 1: people who try to apply econ ship and uh, here's

1224
01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:36,479
Speaker 1: here's the quote that he gave about it. In quote,

1225
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:40,360
Speaker 1: the substantive point is that we do not at present

1226
01:23:40,520 --> 01:23:43,479
Speaker 1: have a theory of inflation dynamics that works sufficiently well

1227
01:23:43,560 --> 01:23:45,519
Speaker 1: to be of use for the business of real time

1228
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:49,680
Speaker 1: monetary policy making. So what are you saying there is

1229
01:23:50,439 --> 01:23:51,880
Speaker 1: like if you translate that out of econs beak, and

1230
01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:53,360
Speaker 1: you don't even really have to translate that out of

1231
01:23:53,360 --> 01:23:55,479
Speaker 1: econs much what he's saying is that he no one

1232
01:23:55,520 --> 01:23:57,280
Speaker 1: has any idea why inflation works, and none on the

1233
01:23:57,280 --> 01:23:59,720
Speaker 1: models work well enough to let you like try to

1234
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:01,960
Speaker 1: deal with inflation if you're you know, the people who

1235
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:06,560
Speaker 1: control the money supply, like the Fed. Now economists like

1236
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:08,519
Speaker 1: we we we've seen in the past, if you've been

1237
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:10,720
Speaker 1: following this off in the past like ten years issue,

1238
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:12,720
Speaker 1: especially in the last five, economists have been getting like

1239
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:15,560
Speaker 1: increasingly desperate to explain what the fund is happening, and

1240
01:24:15,720 --> 01:24:18,800
Speaker 1: they're getting increasingly increasingly desperate right now because you know, hey,

1241
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:21,560
Speaker 1: inflation is back, and that that brings us to the

1242
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:23,559
Speaker 1: paper I mentioned at the top of the episode, which

1243
01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:27,439
Speaker 1: who who killed the Phillips Curve and Murder Mystery, which

1244
01:24:27,720 --> 01:24:31,240
Speaker 1: opens talking about two sort of massive recent failures of

1245
01:24:31,280 --> 01:24:33,880
Speaker 1: the like new Kensie and we fixed we we we

1246
01:24:33,960 --> 01:24:36,479
Speaker 1: added variables to the Phillips curve until like sort of

1247
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:40,400
Speaker 1: kind of works ish maybe, but you know, the only

1248
01:24:40,439 --> 01:24:42,120
Speaker 1: thing they're talking about two of its sort of like

1249
01:24:42,280 --> 01:24:45,160
Speaker 1: incredibly massive failures. The first is in two thousand eight,

1250
01:24:45,479 --> 01:24:49,360
Speaker 1: where there's you know, there's a recession. Oh really what

1251
01:24:49,479 --> 01:24:53,280
Speaker 1: happened economically? A re session? But what's interesting about this right,

1252
01:24:53,360 --> 01:24:54,840
Speaker 1: is that? Okay? So if you think about this, there's

1253
01:24:54,840 --> 01:24:58,439
Speaker 1: an inflation, is there's there's a recession, unemployment skyrockets, this

1254
01:24:58,600 --> 01:25:02,160
Speaker 1: should cause deflation. Well, you know, because you know what

1255
01:25:02,240 --> 01:25:05,080
Speaker 1: else happened to us in night the official Duct Hills

1256
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:09,599
Speaker 1: video game came out. So I think we are through

1257
01:25:09,680 --> 01:25:13,240
Speaker 1: the looking glass people, you know, I mean this, this

1258
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:15,280
Speaker 1: this is not any more bullshit than any of the

1259
01:25:15,320 --> 01:25:18,679
Speaker 1: other stuff they're doing. So like, but you know, okay,

1260
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:21,360
Speaker 1: but there's there's this there's this thing that happens. We're like, okay,

1261
01:25:21,400 --> 01:25:24,479
Speaker 1: the like the inflation that the inflation rate should have

1262
01:25:24,600 --> 01:25:28,000
Speaker 1: been decreasing and it just stays the same. And economist

1263
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:29,840
Speaker 1: are like what and this is this is called the

1264
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:32,519
Speaker 1: missing deflation ary period. There's there's a second thing where

1265
01:25:33,320 --> 01:25:36,360
Speaker 1: dream this sort of like quote unquote economic recovery and

1266
01:25:36,439 --> 01:25:41,760
Speaker 1: the last like ten years ish until basically until before

1267
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:45,280
Speaker 1: the pandemic, employment rates dropped really really low, and this

1268
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:47,960
Speaker 1: should have started this year of triggered inflation, but it doesn't.

1269
01:25:49,400 --> 01:25:53,559
Speaker 1: And you know, okay, And so the people who run

1270
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:55,519
Speaker 1: the Philip Philips group, like the economist are looking at

1271
01:25:55,560 --> 01:25:57,320
Speaker 1: this and they're like, okay, what do we do? And

1272
01:25:57,520 --> 01:25:59,800
Speaker 1: the Fed economists. Solution is again and I share you,

1273
01:25:59,880 --> 01:26:03,120
Speaker 1: not Marxism, and more specifically, the solution is neo Marxism.

1274
01:26:04,040 --> 01:26:06,800
Speaker 1: M Mary. Yeah, yeah, this is this is this is

1275
01:26:06,840 --> 01:26:08,400
Speaker 1: this is something else I'm sort of excited about, which

1276
01:26:08,400 --> 01:26:10,479
Speaker 1: is that I finally get to tell the world what

1277
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:12,960
Speaker 1: a neo Marxist is, because this is technically a thing.

1278
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:15,120
Speaker 1: It's just that none of the people who talked about

1279
01:26:15,160 --> 01:26:17,880
Speaker 1: neo Marxists have any idea what it is. The most

1280
01:26:18,080 --> 01:26:23,040
Speaker 1: modern neo marx Actually really well, I mean I guess

1281
01:26:23,040 --> 01:26:25,800
Speaker 1: you could have okay, what what once we explain it,

1282
01:26:25,840 --> 01:26:27,720
Speaker 1: I will, I will talk about how you could theoretically

1283
01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:29,200
Speaker 1: have a post modern neo Marxist. But I don't think

1284
01:26:29,200 --> 01:26:35,760
Speaker 1: I ever met whoa how welcome Welltory terms. Okay, so

1285
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:38,280
Speaker 1: I'm excited to hear this. Yeah yeah, all right. So

1286
01:26:38,960 --> 01:26:41,080
Speaker 1: what what is happening here is that there's an old

1287
01:26:41,160 --> 01:26:43,240
Speaker 1: joke in Marxist circles that like, the most advanced Pushei

1288
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:45,800
Speaker 1: economists is fifty years behind the most vulgar Marxist. And

1289
01:26:46,120 --> 01:26:49,799
Speaker 1: this is this coming true. The Federal Reserve economists are developing,

1290
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:51,400
Speaker 1: They're trying to make a new Phillips curve and the

1291
01:26:51,439 --> 01:26:53,280
Speaker 1: new Phillips curve is what they call a colleci In

1292
01:26:53,320 --> 01:26:56,800
Speaker 1: Phillips curve because it's based for the guys. New curve

1293
01:26:56,920 --> 01:26:59,560
Speaker 1: just drops. Yeah, it literally is except this this this

1294
01:26:59,680 --> 01:27:01,439
Speaker 1: is this is this is the neo Marxist curve. And

1295
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:04,080
Speaker 1: it's based on the works it's kind of loosely based

1296
01:27:04,120 --> 01:27:05,560
Speaker 1: on him, but it's just based on the work of

1297
01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:10,080
Speaker 1: a Polish Marxist economist named Mikhail Collecki. And Clucky is

1298
01:27:10,160 --> 01:27:15,200
Speaker 1: a he's a very very weird Marxist, like by Marxist standards,

1299
01:27:15,280 --> 01:27:18,839
Speaker 1: is extremely weird. And to explain why this is were

1300
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:20,160
Speaker 1: we have to we have to speed We're gonna have

1301
01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:22,600
Speaker 1: to speed run Marxism one oh one. So I'm going

1302
01:27:22,640 --> 01:27:25,800
Speaker 1: to attempt to explain Marxism in one page. All right,

1303
01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:28,559
Speaker 1: let's okay, okay, mark mark markism one oh one. Right.

1304
01:27:28,680 --> 01:27:31,160
Speaker 1: You have a worker, she has to go find a

1305
01:27:31,280 --> 01:27:33,760
Speaker 1: job and sell her labor to like get food to eat,

1306
01:27:34,240 --> 01:27:37,519
Speaker 1: because otherwise you can't support herself. Um, so she goes

1307
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:39,879
Speaker 1: to work at a factory that makes like hospital stretchers.

1308
01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:42,840
Speaker 1: Now under capitalism, and this is this is this is

1309
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:44,640
Speaker 1: this is one thing I'm explaining this is this is

1310
01:27:44,680 --> 01:27:47,840
Speaker 1: like the this is the orthodox Marxist interpretation. So the

1311
01:27:47,880 --> 01:27:49,720
Speaker 1: people who are about to scream at me for a

1312
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:51,920
Speaker 1: million years about how this is wrong, I'm explaining the

1313
01:27:52,040 --> 01:27:59,840
Speaker 1: orthodox position. Damnit uh Marxism here? Yeah no, okay, yeah, Chris,

1314
01:28:00,160 --> 01:28:05,479
Speaker 1: quick question what what what? What? What was Marx? So

1315
01:28:05,840 --> 01:28:09,800
Speaker 1: Marx was a experiment is psychological experiment run by the

1316
01:28:10,240 --> 01:28:18,720
Speaker 1: by Harvard University that was concluded in but he wrote,

1317
01:28:18,760 --> 01:28:20,040
Speaker 1: he wrote a bunch of books, and one of those

1318
01:28:20,080 --> 01:28:23,439
Speaker 1: books is Capital and and in Capital. So okay, so

1319
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:26,240
Speaker 1: you have you have your worker, right, and she she

1320
01:28:26,400 --> 01:28:29,760
Speaker 1: she works to make hospel stretchers. And the thing that

1321
01:28:29,920 --> 01:28:33,720
Speaker 1: makes the hospital stretcher have value is the amount of

1322
01:28:33,800 --> 01:28:35,960
Speaker 1: time that it takes a worker to make it. So

1323
01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:39,920
Speaker 1: under under this this sort of understanding of what Marxism is,

1324
01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:42,800
Speaker 1: value is just labor time. Right, The value of an

1325
01:28:42,840 --> 01:28:45,320
Speaker 1: object is how many hours of work it takes to

1326
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:48,880
Speaker 1: make a thing. Now this labor time or you know,

1327
01:28:48,960 --> 01:28:50,280
Speaker 1: like like and like how how long it takes to

1328
01:28:50,320 --> 01:28:53,160
Speaker 1: make the thing? Uh, the value of it it isn't

1329
01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:54,560
Speaker 1: measured by like how long it takes them like like

1330
01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:57,680
Speaker 1: an individual cot, Right, It's measured by like how long

1331
01:28:57,800 --> 01:29:00,600
Speaker 1: on average it takes society to make so for you know,

1332
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:02,439
Speaker 1: for example, like you said, this is in Finland, right,

1333
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:05,240
Speaker 1: it's based on how long, on average it takes to

1334
01:29:05,320 --> 01:29:08,560
Speaker 1: make a hospital stretcher in Finland, not like you know,

1335
01:29:08,600 --> 01:29:12,439
Speaker 1: how long it takes to make him like Olivia or something.

1336
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:15,600
Speaker 1: Um and this is the technical term for the for like,

1337
01:29:15,800 --> 01:29:19,360
Speaker 1: this thing is socially necessary labor time. UM. So, our

1338
01:29:19,400 --> 01:29:22,880
Speaker 1: worker like works for through her day and after six hours,

1339
01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:25,800
Speaker 1: she's produced enough value to support herself. She can buy food,

1340
01:29:25,920 --> 01:29:27,639
Speaker 1: she can pay her rent, she can like I don't

1341
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:29,960
Speaker 1: know if you buy a car or something. But she

1342
01:29:29,960 --> 01:29:32,200
Speaker 1: still also worked two more hours of the day and

1343
01:29:32,360 --> 01:29:34,559
Speaker 1: during that time, the labor that she's doing just goes

1344
01:29:34,640 --> 01:29:37,200
Speaker 1: to the boss. And this is called this is called

1345
01:29:37,240 --> 01:29:39,400
Speaker 1: surplus value, like the amount of time that you're working

1346
01:29:39,439 --> 01:29:41,400
Speaker 1: where you're working for the boss and not to like

1347
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:45,040
Speaker 1: support yourself. Uh. This this, this is called surplus value.

1348
01:29:45,080 --> 01:29:50,519
Speaker 1: It is the objective route of exploitation and Marxism. I yeah,

1349
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:52,559
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's it's the value that goes directly

1350
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:57,880
Speaker 1: to your boss. That and the reason that like your

1351
01:29:57,920 --> 01:29:59,479
Speaker 1: boss can just steal this from muse because they have

1352
01:29:59,520 --> 01:30:01,559
Speaker 1: the factor and don't. So if you want to produce

1353
01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:03,360
Speaker 1: something for them to survive, you have to go to him.

1354
01:30:03,439 --> 01:30:05,080
Speaker 1: And this is this is called the ownership of the

1355
01:30:05,160 --> 01:30:09,760
Speaker 1: means of production. Now, the price in theory of of

1356
01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:12,240
Speaker 1: this hospital structure, right is based on value on its

1357
01:30:12,280 --> 01:30:13,840
Speaker 1: value or how many hours it takes to produce it

1358
01:30:14,320 --> 01:30:19,960
Speaker 1: um and how precisely you get from dollars as a

1359
01:30:20,040 --> 01:30:24,160
Speaker 1: unit of measurement from two dollars from time is a

1360
01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:27,880
Speaker 1: subject of an absolutely interminable debate called transformation problem. If

1361
01:30:27,880 --> 01:30:29,240
Speaker 1: you want to go read more about it. I have

1362
01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:32,760
Speaker 1: wasted probably four years of my life reading about it.

1363
01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:36,920
Speaker 1: I don't recommend it. But the answer is you can

1364
01:30:36,960 --> 01:30:38,160
Speaker 1: sort of kind of get it to work if you

1365
01:30:38,200 --> 01:30:40,599
Speaker 1: funk with the numbers a lot. Uh. But it's if

1366
01:30:40,640 --> 01:30:42,360
Speaker 1: you do what's unclear if they mean anything. You can

1367
01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:44,760
Speaker 1: also bypass it entirely by arguing that only works in

1368
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:46,519
Speaker 1: the level of the entire world economy. Blah blah, blah

1369
01:30:46,520 --> 01:30:48,800
Speaker 1: blah blah. I don't care. If you do care about this,

1370
01:30:49,240 --> 01:30:52,439
Speaker 1: don't yell at me. Go read chapter six of Pickler

1371
01:30:52,479 --> 01:30:55,960
Speaker 1: and Needson's Capitalist power Palmatics. Theory is critique Fred Moseley's

1372
01:30:56,120 --> 01:30:59,799
Speaker 1: Money in Totality and kill Mini mcglare is a temporal

1373
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:03,360
Speaker 1: those system interpretation of Marx's theory of value of Marxist

1374
01:31:03,400 --> 01:31:09,479
Speaker 1: value theory. And then google ducktails, go big jennu Wine

1375
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:11,920
Speaker 1: and then send all of that, all of your notes

1376
01:31:12,080 --> 01:31:15,439
Speaker 1: on both the texts and the duck tails, send all

1377
01:31:15,520 --> 01:31:18,760
Speaker 1: that to I write okay on Twitter, um and they

1378
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:22,519
Speaker 1: get back to please you. You will probably come out

1379
01:31:22,560 --> 01:31:24,200
Speaker 1: of like you will come out of the duck yell

1380
01:31:24,320 --> 01:31:26,960
Speaker 1: stuff like more saying than you wire doing the Marxism stuff.

1381
01:31:27,320 --> 01:31:30,840
Speaker 1: So yeah, but I've I've now covered my basis. This

1382
01:31:30,960 --> 01:31:32,800
Speaker 1: is this is this is orthodox Marxism, which is the

1383
01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:35,320
Speaker 1: stuff we've been talking about is based on another There's

1384
01:31:35,320 --> 01:31:38,000
Speaker 1: another assumption here that's important kind of technically, which is that,

1385
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:41,240
Speaker 1: like so orthodox marks assumed that, like, so you have

1386
01:31:41,280 --> 01:31:42,800
Speaker 1: a bunch of sectors of the economy, right, there are

1387
01:31:42,800 --> 01:31:45,640
Speaker 1: people who like make different stuff, and the assumption to

1388
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:49,080
Speaker 1: do who make hospital guarantees, people who do more important

1389
01:31:49,160 --> 01:31:52,400
Speaker 1: work like make podcasts, yeah, yeah, and and everything in between.

1390
01:31:53,000 --> 01:31:54,680
Speaker 1: And the assumption is that, Okay, so you have a

1391
01:31:54,760 --> 01:31:57,160
Speaker 1: person who makes like podcasts, right, and then and the

1392
01:31:57,240 --> 01:31:59,320
Speaker 1: other people who make costel structures figured out that making

1393
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:02,040
Speaker 1: podcast is more profitable than making hospital stretchers, so they

1394
01:32:02,080 --> 01:32:04,800
Speaker 1: start moving all their capital into making podcasts. But then

1395
01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:07,720
Speaker 1: because there's too many podcasts, the rate of profit goes down,

1396
01:32:07,760 --> 01:32:11,240
Speaker 1: and eventually, like eventually the rate of profit across all

1397
01:32:11,280 --> 01:32:17,439
Speaker 1: sectors is supposed to equalize. Yes, yeah, so and and

1398
01:32:17,640 --> 01:32:20,280
Speaker 1: this means that, like in the combination of this and

1399
01:32:20,320 --> 01:32:22,759
Speaker 1: competition means that prices is supposed to tend towards value

1400
01:32:22,960 --> 01:32:25,960
Speaker 1: or like the how much something cost in money is

1401
01:32:25,960 --> 01:32:28,439
Speaker 1: supposed to tend towards the labor time socially necessary to

1402
01:32:28,479 --> 01:32:32,320
Speaker 1: produce a commodity in a given place. Um, this is

1403
01:32:32,400 --> 01:32:34,839
Speaker 1: like the basic thesis of like what you call orthodox

1404
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:38,479
Speaker 1: Marxist like orthodox Marxist political economy, you would probably the

1405
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:42,200
Speaker 1: Marksian political economy, whatever the fun you want to call it. UM. Now,

1406
01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:47,519
Speaker 1: in in starting in about the ninet inwenties, there was

1407
01:32:48,439 --> 01:32:51,720
Speaker 1: a new Marxism, and this is called neo Marxism. Neo

1408
01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:55,000
Speaker 1: Marxism is basic Like I heard about that from Dr

1409
01:32:55,120 --> 01:32:57,840
Speaker 1: Jordan B. Peters. Yeah yeah, right now. Now, now we're

1410
01:32:57,840 --> 01:33:00,320
Speaker 1: gonna get the inside scoop on on neo mark Exism.

1411
01:33:00,400 --> 01:33:04,120
Speaker 1: So Neo Marxism. Their basic thesis is like, what if

1412
01:33:04,160 --> 01:33:07,280
Speaker 1: profit rates don't equalize across like betwetween different parts of

1413
01:33:07,320 --> 01:33:10,679
Speaker 1: the economy that make things, and you know, and because

1414
01:33:10,760 --> 01:33:12,720
Speaker 1: they don't do that, what what if what if you

1415
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:15,320
Speaker 1: don't get competition? Because instead of people being able to

1416
01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:18,200
Speaker 1: just freely move capital between like sectors, what if you

1417
01:33:18,240 --> 01:33:23,080
Speaker 1: have monopolies? And if you have monopolies, instead of sort

1418
01:33:23,080 --> 01:33:25,840
Speaker 1: of price being like a price is just value blah

1419
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:27,920
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, because theyone can keep moving their money around,

1420
01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:30,840
Speaker 1: price is now a price. Price is now derived from

1421
01:33:30,960 --> 01:33:34,680
Speaker 1: the power of a corporation because if you know, if

1422
01:33:34,760 --> 01:33:36,600
Speaker 1: if if you if you're a powerful enough corporation to

1423
01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:38,880
Speaker 1: like have a monopoly and stop anyone else in producing

1424
01:33:38,920 --> 01:33:40,120
Speaker 1: the thing that you do. Now you can now you

1425
01:33:40,160 --> 01:33:44,080
Speaker 1: can charge word called markups. And this is where Michail

1426
01:33:44,160 --> 01:33:50,280
Speaker 1: Collecky like enters from stage left um Collecy like he

1427
01:33:50,439 --> 01:33:53,040
Speaker 1: probably should have been the father father of like modern

1428
01:33:53,080 --> 01:33:56,040
Speaker 1: macroeconomics in the sense that like he invents a bunch

1429
01:33:56,080 --> 01:33:57,960
Speaker 1: of the ship that like Caynes does before Kanes did.

1430
01:33:58,040 --> 01:33:59,840
Speaker 1: But the problem is that he's writing a lot of

1431
01:33:59,880 --> 01:34:04,479
Speaker 1: this Polish and so the sort of like anglophone like

1432
01:34:04,600 --> 01:34:07,439
Speaker 1: economists are not reading it because he's in Poland and

1433
01:34:07,479 --> 01:34:09,280
Speaker 1: he's a Marxist and he's writing in polo circles. But

1434
01:34:09,320 --> 01:34:11,679
Speaker 1: he invents a bunch of the stuff that like Canes

1435
01:34:11,680 --> 01:34:15,200
Speaker 1: invents slightly earlier, and he starts like looking at like

1436
01:34:15,240 --> 01:34:17,320
Speaker 1: monopoly and oligarchy theory and he starts trying to apply

1437
01:34:17,360 --> 01:34:19,479
Speaker 1: it to Marxism, and it's what you know, his inclusion

1438
01:34:19,560 --> 01:34:21,360
Speaker 1: is that monopolies are powerful enough that they can charge

1439
01:34:21,400 --> 01:34:24,559
Speaker 1: these markups, which is just like additional price increase over

1440
01:34:24,680 --> 01:34:27,400
Speaker 1: like what the like value determined price is supposed to be,

1441
01:34:27,880 --> 01:34:30,000
Speaker 1: because they can prevent anyone else from selling a thing.

1442
01:34:30,040 --> 01:34:33,960
Speaker 1: And then you know, one what what once you have

1443
01:34:34,040 --> 01:34:36,000
Speaker 1: a monopoly in the market, you can force people to

1444
01:34:36,120 --> 01:34:38,320
Speaker 1: just like fucking suck it up and pay it because

1445
01:34:38,320 --> 01:34:42,160
Speaker 1: they can't get it from anywhere else. And this is

1446
01:34:42,200 --> 01:34:44,760
Speaker 1: actually this is like pretty similar in some ways to

1447
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:48,479
Speaker 1: like a bourgeois economic like theory of how this stuff works,

1448
01:34:48,520 --> 01:34:50,880
Speaker 1: which is like, oh yeah, in in bourgeois economics, like

1449
01:34:51,600 --> 01:34:53,760
Speaker 1: monopolies can increase the price over We're they're supposed to

1450
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:55,439
Speaker 1: be in a perfectly competitive market because they have power

1451
01:34:55,439 --> 01:34:58,360
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah. But there's something very different

1452
01:34:58,400 --> 01:35:00,920
Speaker 1: in Coluckties work that is not in the normal Bushwa stuff,

1453
01:35:00,920 --> 01:35:06,240
Speaker 1: which is that what what he argues is that trade unions, Okay,

1454
01:35:06,280 --> 01:35:09,680
Speaker 1: so you have a trade union, right, they represented the

1455
01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:13,040
Speaker 1: workers who work at a company, and these that these

1456
01:35:13,080 --> 01:35:15,280
Speaker 1: trade unions are fighting over the over the product of

1457
01:35:15,320 --> 01:35:19,120
Speaker 1: the markup and this keeps the size of markups. Are

1458
01:35:19,160 --> 01:35:21,160
Speaker 1: these sort of like these price increases that monopolies are

1459
01:35:21,200 --> 01:35:25,559
Speaker 1: doing down because the larger the markup these companies apply,

1460
01:35:25,880 --> 01:35:28,160
Speaker 1: the more incentive there are there is for unions to

1461
01:35:28,240 --> 01:35:30,640
Speaker 1: sort of like fight for pay increases, right, because okay, well,

1462
01:35:30,800 --> 01:35:34,040
Speaker 1: the more expective the goods are, the more money they're

1463
01:35:34,040 --> 01:35:35,960
Speaker 1: like very clearly is on hand. And so the larger

1464
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:39,760
Speaker 1: the demands you get from organized labor. And this is

1465
01:35:39,840 --> 01:35:42,760
Speaker 1: the insight that who killed the Phillips curve the paper

1466
01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:45,400
Speaker 1: I was talking about jumps on that unions fight over

1467
01:35:45,520 --> 01:35:47,720
Speaker 1: markups and thus that the strength of unions is part

1468
01:35:47,800 --> 01:35:52,040
Speaker 1: of what helps determine inflation. And they point out that

1469
01:35:52,320 --> 01:35:56,000
Speaker 1: you know, unions want lower prices and for for goods,

1470
01:35:56,000 --> 01:35:58,000
Speaker 1: and the reason they want lower prices for goods is

1471
01:35:58,080 --> 01:36:00,800
Speaker 1: that the higher the price is of something, right, the

1472
01:36:00,880 --> 01:36:05,040
Speaker 1: less people buy of it, and the less people like

1473
01:36:05,240 --> 01:36:07,200
Speaker 1: buy of the thing, the less has to be produced.

1474
01:36:07,200 --> 01:36:10,680
Speaker 1: And that means that there's less people being employed. And

1475
01:36:10,720 --> 01:36:12,360
Speaker 1: so if you're a union, you want like the most

1476
01:36:12,439 --> 01:36:15,240
Speaker 1: number of people being employed as you can. And so

1477
01:36:15,360 --> 01:36:17,080
Speaker 1: that means that means that you want you want prices

1478
01:36:17,160 --> 01:36:21,080
Speaker 1: to be low, because yeah, that because because lower prices

1479
01:36:21,200 --> 01:36:22,960
Speaker 1: means more of the more of the good being produced,

1480
01:36:22,960 --> 01:36:26,600
Speaker 1: and more the good being produced means more jobs. And

1481
01:36:27,120 --> 01:36:28,719
Speaker 1: this is where we get to sort of the fundamental

1482
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:32,920
Speaker 1: assumption behind the regular Philips drip. And this is also

1483
01:36:33,000 --> 01:36:35,320
Speaker 1: true for this sort of like new like pseudo neo

1484
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:39,880
Speaker 1: Marxist one, right, Um, their assumption is that inflation is

1485
01:36:39,960 --> 01:36:44,560
Speaker 1: driven by rising wages. And you know, even though the

1486
01:36:44,680 --> 01:36:46,759
Speaker 1: unions are trying to sort of like reduce the markup

1487
01:36:47,000 --> 01:36:49,920
Speaker 1: and like and reduce markups, reduce prices to increase the

1488
01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:52,160
Speaker 1: number of workers, firms are trying to increase prices so

1489
01:36:52,200 --> 01:36:54,080
Speaker 1: they can make back the money they're paying out in widges.

1490
01:36:55,160 --> 01:36:57,800
Speaker 1: Now when when unemployment is like high, this doesn't matter

1491
01:36:58,760 --> 01:37:01,400
Speaker 1: because wages don't rise very fast because there's you know,

1492
01:37:01,439 --> 01:37:03,679
Speaker 1: there's this gnormous pool of people who are incredibly desert

1493
01:37:03,720 --> 01:37:05,880
Speaker 1: for job, and you can pay them sort of like nothing,

1494
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:07,519
Speaker 1: and they'll they'll come work for you because the al

1495
01:37:07,560 --> 01:37:11,120
Speaker 1: turnative is you know, starving or getting evicted. But when

1496
01:37:11,160 --> 01:37:14,479
Speaker 1: when unemployment is low, the bargaining power of workers increases,

1497
01:37:14,520 --> 01:37:17,559
Speaker 1: and that's that that's that's where the class war starts. Yeah,

1498
01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:21,560
Speaker 1: I mean this. You see this in ninety one with

1499
01:37:21,720 --> 01:37:25,880
Speaker 1: the screen Cartoonists strike that Scrooge McDuck brutally cracked down

1500
01:37:25,960 --> 01:37:29,840
Speaker 1: on um and eventually had to seed seed ground to

1501
01:37:29,960 --> 01:37:33,719
Speaker 1: the guild. But Scrooge, Scrooge McDuck was was brutal during

1502
01:37:34,080 --> 01:37:37,160
Speaker 1: during this time period post the thirties rise of unions.

1503
01:37:37,600 --> 01:37:40,519
Speaker 1: That's right, Garrison, and that's a big part of why Huey,

1504
01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:43,280
Speaker 1: Dewey and Louie had to track him down in his

1505
01:37:43,400 --> 01:37:46,160
Speaker 1: money room and stick a bicycle pump into his mouth

1506
01:37:46,200 --> 01:37:49,280
Speaker 1: while he was sleeping and begin to inflate him largely

1507
01:37:49,320 --> 01:38:01,720
Speaker 1: while touching themselves critical support. Louis my boy. So as

1508
01:38:01,920 --> 01:38:04,400
Speaker 1: as as as with I don't, I can't. I don't

1509
01:38:04,400 --> 01:38:07,840
Speaker 1: even know how to transition that I can't do it,

1510
01:38:08,400 --> 01:38:11,600
Speaker 1: but nobody does. I mean, really, the main thing is

1511
01:38:11,680 --> 01:38:13,840
Speaker 1: that the concentration of wealth in the hands of a

1512
01:38:13,880 --> 01:38:17,920
Speaker 1: small number of individuals will inevitably lead to inflation. Which

1513
01:38:18,040 --> 01:38:19,800
Speaker 1: is true. And and this is one of the things

1514
01:38:19,960 --> 01:38:23,080
Speaker 1: that um that that that the economist are sort of

1515
01:38:23,240 --> 01:38:26,519
Speaker 1: talking about here, which is that like, okay, so once

1516
01:38:26,840 --> 01:38:28,800
Speaker 1: once you get an actual sort of once you once

1517
01:38:28,840 --> 01:38:30,880
Speaker 1: you get like a real class work going on right

1518
01:38:30,960 --> 01:38:32,720
Speaker 1: where you're you're you're getting a class work to the

1519
01:38:32,760 --> 01:38:34,960
Speaker 1: extent that like the bargaining power of workers into bargaining

1520
01:38:35,000 --> 01:38:39,639
Speaker 1: power of of like capitalist firms are essentially like very

1521
01:38:39,680 --> 01:38:45,280
Speaker 1: close to being equal. Um, you get inflation. Now, what's

1522
01:38:45,320 --> 01:38:48,320
Speaker 1: interesting about this is that when you have strong unions,

1523
01:38:48,439 --> 01:38:50,120
Speaker 1: like when you have strong unions, you get high rates

1524
01:38:50,160 --> 01:38:53,080
Speaker 1: of inflation during periods of sort of inflation shocks, right,

1525
01:38:53,320 --> 01:38:55,360
Speaker 1: because the unions are sort of like propping up wages

1526
01:38:55,439 --> 01:38:58,280
Speaker 1: in this theory. But and this is the interesting part, right,

1527
01:38:59,600 --> 01:39:02,920
Speaker 1: you get way lower rates of unemployment. And so it's okay,

1528
01:39:03,040 --> 01:39:04,639
Speaker 1: it's just step back for a second. So what's happening

1529
01:39:04,680 --> 01:39:06,040
Speaker 1: here is, right, if you have if you have strong

1530
01:39:06,160 --> 01:39:08,400
Speaker 1: unions and there's something else in the supply chain that

1531
01:39:08,479 --> 01:39:11,679
Speaker 1: increases costs, say to to to to pick a completely

1532
01:39:11,760 --> 01:39:14,680
Speaker 1: random example that never happened. Uh, say, for example, you're

1533
01:39:14,680 --> 01:39:16,320
Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies and the price of oil is

1534
01:39:16,360 --> 01:39:19,840
Speaker 1: quadrupled in one year, and that increases the price of everything.

1535
01:39:20,560 --> 01:39:22,519
Speaker 1: Now when when when you have a strong but but

1536
01:39:24,400 --> 01:39:27,960
Speaker 1: this never happens, don't google the oil shocks. Actually, literally

1537
01:39:28,000 --> 01:39:30,599
Speaker 1: don't google the oil shocks because almost everything written online

1538
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:34,240
Speaker 1: about the oil shocks is a lie. I yeah, I

1539
01:39:34,320 --> 01:39:36,960
Speaker 1: think I've talked about that before on the the other bills.

1540
01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:38,960
Speaker 1: Never so, but yeah, it's it's all lie. But but basically,

1541
01:39:39,120 --> 01:39:40,880
Speaker 1: like one of the what you know, okay, what what

1542
01:39:41,000 --> 01:39:43,080
Speaker 1: What happens here is if you if you have strong unions,

1543
01:39:43,439 --> 01:39:46,040
Speaker 1: you get a bunch of inflation, but people don't get fired.

1544
01:39:48,200 --> 01:39:51,080
Speaker 1: And when when corporations are strong and you don't have unions,

1545
01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:53,280
Speaker 1: you know, you get these shocks and the inflation rate

1546
01:39:53,320 --> 01:39:55,519
Speaker 1: is much lower, but everyone gets fired. Unemployment rate goes

1547
01:39:55,600 --> 01:39:58,040
Speaker 1: up to like ten percent. Uh. It's you know, it's

1548
01:39:58,080 --> 01:40:02,880
Speaker 1: an absolute disaster. So that's that's one thing to note

1549
01:40:02,920 --> 01:40:04,720
Speaker 1: about about the way the sort of the Philips curve,

1550
01:40:04,800 --> 01:40:07,720
Speaker 1: the sort of Marxian Phillips curve, like analyze the situation, right,

1551
01:40:08,640 --> 01:40:12,240
Speaker 1: But there's another consequence here, which comes back to like

1552
01:40:12,479 --> 01:40:16,080
Speaker 1: what inflation is under a Phillips curve, Right, Inflation in

1553
01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:19,680
Speaker 1: Phillips curve is literally just wage increases. Right, So when

1554
01:40:19,760 --> 01:40:22,240
Speaker 1: when union power is weak, inflation stuff. But like, what

1555
01:40:22,320 --> 01:40:25,280
Speaker 1: does this actually mean? What it means is that wages

1556
01:40:25,280 --> 01:40:30,160
Speaker 1: aren't growing, sure, aren't. Yeah, And and this brings us

1557
01:40:30,200 --> 01:40:31,960
Speaker 1: back to like the sort of weirdness we saw in

1558
01:40:32,080 --> 01:40:33,720
Speaker 1: the earlier part of the episode, right right after two

1559
01:40:33,720 --> 01:40:35,720
Speaker 1: thousand eight, right where there should have been deflation because

1560
01:40:35,720 --> 01:40:38,719
Speaker 1: the unemployment rate was really high, and also like junior

1561
01:40:39,080 --> 01:40:42,000
Speaker 1: recovery period where ninflation rate is unemployment rate is super low.

1562
01:40:42,160 --> 01:40:44,240
Speaker 1: But and there should have been inflation, but there wasn't.

1563
01:40:44,840 --> 01:40:47,679
Speaker 1: And the answer is why why wasn't their inflation? It's well, okay,

1564
01:40:47,720 --> 01:40:51,080
Speaker 1: because no one had a union and so everyone's wages

1565
01:40:51,120 --> 01:40:53,400
Speaker 1: just stayed the same the whole time. I have another

1566
01:40:53,479 --> 01:40:56,120
Speaker 1: explanation for this. And when I previously when I previously

1567
01:40:56,160 --> 01:40:57,960
Speaker 1: said the Ducktails game came out into that to night,

1568
01:40:58,000 --> 01:41:00,760
Speaker 1: I was actually incorrect. Uh. Two thousand and eight was

1569
01:41:00,800 --> 01:41:04,320
Speaker 1: when Nintendo Power listed the Duck Tails game as the

1570
01:41:04,439 --> 01:41:07,920
Speaker 1: thirteenth best Nintendo Entertainment System game. Um, there was it

1571
01:41:08,040 --> 01:41:10,880
Speaker 1: was voted that into thousand night. Now it's important that

1572
01:41:11,040 --> 01:41:13,920
Speaker 1: thirteen is very unlucky number. So by voting the duck

1573
01:41:14,000 --> 01:41:17,760
Speaker 1: Tails game best game from the NS into thousand eight,

1574
01:41:18,120 --> 01:41:21,600
Speaker 1: and they could have basically caused a psychic rift in

1575
01:41:21,640 --> 01:41:25,080
Speaker 1: the fabric of the universe, creating the financial crash. That's

1576
01:41:25,120 --> 01:41:28,519
Speaker 1: fascinating Garrison, because I was thirteen in two thousand one

1577
01:41:28,680 --> 01:41:31,760
Speaker 1: when I came across that angel Fire website with home

1578
01:41:31,880 --> 01:41:37,600
Speaker 1: drawn Ducktails inflation pornography. Wait, so this I think in

1579
01:41:37,640 --> 01:41:42,040
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Yeah, yeah, that's all connected. You

1580
01:41:42,080 --> 01:41:44,200
Speaker 1: know who else may have been a contributing factor to

1581
01:41:44,320 --> 01:41:47,959
Speaker 1: nine eleven the products and services that support this podcast.

1582
01:41:48,240 --> 01:41:50,799
Speaker 1: I think that's right, that's right. We do not accept

1583
01:41:50,880 --> 01:41:55,000
Speaker 1: a sponsor unless it gets the explicit sign off of

1584
01:41:55,360 --> 01:41:58,719
Speaker 1: the King of Saudi Arabia. Um who, if you'll remember,

1585
01:41:59,320 --> 01:42:02,280
Speaker 1: did nine eleven and all right, yeah, I'm I'm not

1586
01:42:02,320 --> 01:42:04,439
Speaker 1: getting I'm i I am not getting paid tough to

1587
01:42:04,479 --> 01:42:07,680
Speaker 1: properly transition this, so I'm not going to. Uh So

1588
01:42:07,960 --> 01:42:10,400
Speaker 1: it turns out that, yeah, so the reason there hasn't

1589
01:42:10,439 --> 01:42:13,200
Speaker 1: been inflation is that there's no unions. Because we don't

1590
01:42:13,240 --> 01:42:16,639
Speaker 1: have unions. Are wages all suck and uh, this means

1591
01:42:16,720 --> 01:42:18,840
Speaker 1: that you know, wages, wages are stagnant low, and it

1592
01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:20,680
Speaker 1: means that they're not a drive. The unions aren't a

1593
01:42:20,760 --> 01:42:23,799
Speaker 1: driver of inflation. And also low wages are driver inflation

1594
01:42:23,880 --> 01:42:28,879
Speaker 1: because they you know, like unions aren't around to increase wages. Now. Meanwhile,

1595
01:42:28,920 --> 01:42:31,160
Speaker 1: the other thing that this suggests is that monetary policy

1596
01:42:31,200 --> 01:42:36,400
Speaker 1: and they okay, I think they're they're in exact analysis

1597
01:42:36,439 --> 01:42:38,280
Speaker 1: was like I think like eighty four percent of like

1598
01:42:38,360 --> 01:42:42,840
Speaker 1: inflation shocks can be explained by looking at like union density. Um.

1599
01:42:43,280 --> 01:42:45,120
Speaker 1: But this also means it means what like monetary policy,

1600
01:42:45,160 --> 01:42:47,080
Speaker 1: like how much money there is like in the economy

1601
01:42:47,120 --> 01:42:51,920
Speaker 1: has like basically no role inflation whatsoever. And and this

1602
01:42:52,120 --> 01:42:53,599
Speaker 1: is you know, okay, so like like this has all

1603
01:42:53,640 --> 01:42:55,600
Speaker 1: been sort of one perspective from some economists of the

1604
01:42:55,600 --> 01:42:58,200
Speaker 1: Federal Reserve, And we can ask the question, like why

1605
01:42:58,240 --> 01:43:00,760
Speaker 1: does this matter? Right? Like why why why? Why does

1606
01:43:00,840 --> 01:43:02,880
Speaker 1: like sort of one like group of people on the

1607
01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:06,320
Speaker 1: Fed like their response this matters And partly it matters

1608
01:43:06,360 --> 01:43:09,040
Speaker 1: because it's again extremely funny to watch the Federal Reserve

1609
01:43:09,120 --> 01:43:12,000
Speaker 1: turning to neo Marxists too, like try to explain why

1610
01:43:12,040 --> 01:43:15,879
Speaker 1: inflation happens. But it also matters because theories of inflation

1611
01:43:16,400 --> 01:43:19,720
Speaker 1: dictate inflation policy. Um. Jerome Powell, who's the chairman the

1612
01:43:19,760 --> 01:43:21,920
Speaker 1: Federal Reserve, has had a press conference on May fourth,

1613
01:43:22,400 --> 01:43:24,280
Speaker 1: and it's too long to play the whole thing, but

1614
01:43:24,520 --> 01:43:26,800
Speaker 1: he has the speech, and he lays out a few

1615
01:43:26,800 --> 01:43:30,360
Speaker 1: things that are interesting. So he talks about a bunch

1616
01:43:30,360 --> 01:43:33,639
Speaker 1: of stuff that's causing inflation, rights production bottlenecks, increasing crude

1617
01:43:33,680 --> 01:43:37,320
Speaker 1: oil prices, concreasing commodity prices from like Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

1618
01:43:37,760 --> 01:43:40,679
Speaker 1: Like he's lockdowns and shin another keeping factory like clothes,

1619
01:43:40,720 --> 01:43:42,519
Speaker 1: and like, yeah, okay, those are all like reasonable things

1620
01:43:42,600 --> 01:43:45,519
Speaker 1: that cause inflation. But then when you get to like

1621
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:48,160
Speaker 1: what the Fed is actually going to do, he starts

1622
01:43:48,200 --> 01:43:50,080
Speaker 1: talking about how the job market is too good for

1623
01:43:50,160 --> 01:43:52,080
Speaker 1: workers right now and unemployment is too low and that's

1624
01:43:52,120 --> 01:43:54,439
Speaker 1: what driving wages up. So he's planning he's going to

1625
01:43:54,479 --> 01:43:57,679
Speaker 1: tinker around with monetary policy to reduce wages and decrease

1626
01:43:57,720 --> 01:44:02,080
Speaker 1: the demand for jobs. And this brings us back to

1627
01:44:02,160 --> 01:44:04,479
Speaker 1: like two things. The first part is just the class

1628
01:44:04,479 --> 01:44:07,400
Speaker 1: war part of inflation. Right, Prices are rising right now

1629
01:44:07,600 --> 01:44:10,560
Speaker 1: because someone inside, like prices are rising right now, and

1630
01:44:11,120 --> 01:44:13,000
Speaker 1: someone inside if if you want them to not to

1631
01:44:13,160 --> 01:44:17,160
Speaker 1: like cease to continue rising somewhat some part of like

1632
01:44:17,320 --> 01:44:19,400
Speaker 1: the company is going to have to take a hit

1633
01:44:19,960 --> 01:44:22,519
Speaker 1: to like the their percentage of like the sort of

1634
01:44:22,600 --> 01:44:24,840
Speaker 1: the markup, right, like their their percentage of like the

1635
01:44:24,960 --> 01:44:31,000
Speaker 1: price increase of the corporations do above like cost and okay,

1636
01:44:31,040 --> 01:44:33,000
Speaker 1: so someone has to do this, And the Federal Reserve

1637
01:44:33,680 --> 01:44:35,960
Speaker 1: like absolutely wants to make sure that the person paying

1638
01:44:36,000 --> 01:44:39,400
Speaker 1: for that is you, the worker. And the second part

1639
01:44:39,560 --> 01:44:41,080
Speaker 1: is something you might have picked up on if you're

1640
01:44:41,080 --> 01:44:43,040
Speaker 1: paying close attention. And this has been something that's been

1641
01:44:43,080 --> 01:44:46,320
Speaker 1: true of of both like the FED chairman and the

1642
01:44:46,479 --> 01:44:48,640
Speaker 1: FED economists do this too, which is they do this

1643
01:44:48,720 --> 01:44:50,960
Speaker 1: they talk about inflation. They do this kind of two steps, right.

1644
01:44:51,880 --> 01:44:54,320
Speaker 1: They talk about a shock or something that causes prices

1645
01:44:54,360 --> 01:44:56,479
Speaker 1: to increase, like you know, a bunch of Ukrainian wheat

1646
01:44:56,640 --> 01:44:58,720
Speaker 1: like suddenly being on harvest will because the Russian army

1647
01:44:58,760 --> 01:45:00,880
Speaker 1: is squatting on it, or like Chinese factory shutting down

1648
01:45:01,160 --> 01:45:04,880
Speaker 1: us the amount of weeder price electronics or sorry reduces

1649
01:45:04,920 --> 01:45:06,680
Speaker 1: the amount of wheat or the amount of electronics being

1650
01:45:06,680 --> 01:45:08,640
Speaker 1: produced that drives out prices. Right, they talk about like

1651
01:45:08,680 --> 01:45:11,880
Speaker 1: there's an inflationary shock, and then they start talking and

1652
01:45:11,920 --> 01:45:14,120
Speaker 1: instead of talking about that anymore, they start talking about

1653
01:45:14,160 --> 01:45:16,680
Speaker 1: unemployment levels and the job market and monetary policy being

1654
01:45:16,720 --> 01:45:19,040
Speaker 1: what drives inflation. And I think this is this is

1655
01:45:19,080 --> 01:45:21,960
Speaker 1: a very important piece of ideology because if you look

1656
01:45:22,000 --> 01:45:24,120
Speaker 1: at what's going on here, right if if you know,

1657
01:45:24,160 --> 01:45:25,920
Speaker 1: if you go back to the seventies, it's not like

1658
01:45:26,040 --> 01:45:28,479
Speaker 1: inflation in the seventies is not the Union's fault, like

1659
01:45:29,680 --> 01:45:31,120
Speaker 1: you know, the the the in the inflation in the

1660
01:45:31,160 --> 01:45:34,040
Speaker 1: seventies was like in large part the original price increases

1661
01:45:34,200 --> 01:45:36,479
Speaker 1: because the price of oil country country pulled in one year.

1662
01:45:37,439 --> 01:45:40,840
Speaker 1: But you know, but the Fed instead focuses on wage

1663
01:45:40,880 --> 01:45:43,080
Speaker 1: increases is what drives inflation, even even if they're sort

1664
01:45:43,080 --> 01:45:45,840
Speaker 1: of like using like Marxists to do it. And what

1665
01:45:45,960 --> 01:45:48,439
Speaker 1: they're doing here is shifting the focus from the actual

1666
01:45:48,640 --> 01:45:51,960
Speaker 1: shock that is like the thing, the immediate thing that

1667
01:45:52,120 --> 01:45:55,160
Speaker 1: is increasing prices, and they're shifting the focus from the

1668
01:45:55,200 --> 01:45:57,680
Speaker 1: shock to the people who are reacting to it. And

1669
01:45:57,840 --> 01:46:00,200
Speaker 1: from there the question stops being about like d link

1670
01:46:00,240 --> 01:46:02,360
Speaker 1: with the shock itself and starts being about who's going

1671
01:46:02,439 --> 01:46:05,280
Speaker 1: to pay for these price increases, and in the nineteen eighties,

1672
01:46:05,600 --> 01:46:07,960
Speaker 1: like Reagan's Reagan solution, this iss well, okay, she's just

1673
01:46:07,960 --> 01:46:10,040
Speaker 1: gonna make organized labor pay for it. And so she

1674
01:46:10,160 --> 01:46:13,000
Speaker 1: just annihilates the annihilist the unions. He uses the state

1675
01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:15,679
Speaker 1: to do it, just crushes the unions completely. And price increases,

1676
01:46:15,760 --> 01:46:18,519
Speaker 1: you know, prices stop increasing, right, And they stop increasing

1677
01:46:18,560 --> 01:46:21,920
Speaker 1: because the production costs of all of these goods like

1678
01:46:22,120 --> 01:46:24,519
Speaker 1: decrease because workers are no longer getting paid and they

1679
01:46:24,560 --> 01:46:28,760
Speaker 1: lose all their benefits. But this is the thing they

1680
01:46:28,840 --> 01:46:31,280
Speaker 1: never dealt with the actual source of the problem, right,

1681
01:46:31,360 --> 01:46:33,479
Speaker 1: Oil prices are still really high to this day, and

1682
01:46:33,560 --> 01:46:37,360
Speaker 1: we've never transitioned off oil. And so to look at

1683
01:46:37,439 --> 01:46:40,120
Speaker 1: sort of that problem, I want to briefly look at

1684
01:46:40,120 --> 01:46:42,720
Speaker 1: another theory of inflation, which is one presented by Steve Mann,

1685
01:46:42,720 --> 01:46:44,160
Speaker 1: who I think I've actually had on the show before.

1686
01:46:44,560 --> 01:46:46,280
Speaker 1: He's one of the people at Strange Matters, and he

1687
01:46:46,360 --> 01:46:48,880
Speaker 1: wrote he wrote this article called Notes towards the Theory

1688
01:46:48,920 --> 01:46:51,200
Speaker 1: of Inflation, which is based on the work of a

1689
01:46:51,240 --> 01:46:55,280
Speaker 1: heterodox economist named Frederick Lee, who is he's a cool

1690
01:46:55,320 --> 01:46:57,960
Speaker 1: guy and all of his stuff is like completely out

1691
01:46:58,040 --> 01:47:01,040
Speaker 1: there from the compens from decomperspective of but it it

1692
01:47:01,400 --> 01:47:04,320
Speaker 1: makes more sense than most regularly kind of stuff. So

1693
01:47:05,479 --> 01:47:07,600
Speaker 1: the sort of like founding observation of like that like

1694
01:47:08,120 --> 01:47:11,840
Speaker 1: project Lys basing his stuff on is that like, okay,

1695
01:47:12,000 --> 01:47:15,120
Speaker 1: prices are not set by like an abstract market. Right,

1696
01:47:15,360 --> 01:47:17,439
Speaker 1: the price of something in a grocery store is set

1697
01:47:17,479 --> 01:47:19,160
Speaker 1: by a guy like that there there there was a

1698
01:47:19,200 --> 01:47:21,519
Speaker 1: specific guy or they are like several specific guys whose

1699
01:47:21,600 --> 01:47:24,240
Speaker 1: job it is to set the prices for the firm. Um.

1700
01:47:24,320 --> 01:47:26,320
Speaker 1: This this this theory of like what it's not even

1701
01:47:26,360 --> 01:47:28,839
Speaker 1: a theory, like the fact that this is how prices

1702
01:47:28,880 --> 01:47:30,880
Speaker 1: are formed by just a guy who sits there with

1703
01:47:30,920 --> 01:47:32,640
Speaker 1: a notebook or like a computer. Is this is what

1704
01:47:32,720 --> 01:47:35,240
Speaker 1: the price is going to be. This is called administered prices.

1705
01:47:36,040 --> 01:47:38,519
Speaker 1: And Lee like very confestently argues that like this is

1706
01:47:38,560 --> 01:47:40,800
Speaker 1: how firm This is how both large and small firms

1707
01:47:40,840 --> 01:47:43,639
Speaker 1: actually set their prices. Right, a guy calculates his expenses,

1708
01:47:43,720 --> 01:47:47,120
Speaker 1: he adds a mark up, and he sets the price. Now,

1709
01:47:47,320 --> 01:47:50,840
Speaker 1: Steve Man argues that these prices don't generally tend to

1710
01:47:50,960 --> 01:47:55,960
Speaker 1: increase naturally because the price setters don't generally want to

1711
01:47:56,200 --> 01:47:58,680
Speaker 1: just increase the price randomly, because if you if you

1712
01:47:58,760 --> 01:48:01,120
Speaker 1: increase the price randomly, you will piss off your customers.

1713
01:48:01,680 --> 01:48:04,519
Speaker 1: And the customers, you know, okay, they'll they'll tolerate like

1714
01:48:04,600 --> 01:48:06,640
Speaker 1: some small increases, but if if you raise the price enough,

1715
01:48:06,680 --> 01:48:09,439
Speaker 1: they lose your goodwill towards your brand, and they'll like

1716
01:48:09,600 --> 01:48:11,439
Speaker 1: they'll go off and try to find another brand. And

1717
01:48:11,560 --> 01:48:13,840
Speaker 1: this is disastrous because even if you reduce the prices

1718
01:48:13,880 --> 01:48:16,000
Speaker 1: back down again, like the good will is lost. And

1719
01:48:16,080 --> 01:48:17,400
Speaker 1: that's sort of like you know, the sort of like

1720
01:48:17,439 --> 01:48:19,759
Speaker 1: happy association that like you have in your brain between

1721
01:48:19,840 --> 01:48:22,960
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like Nestly chocolate or something, or

1722
01:48:23,000 --> 01:48:25,760
Speaker 1: like whatever brand of things you're buying, like you get

1723
01:48:25,800 --> 01:48:27,400
Speaker 1: piste off of them because the price is now like

1724
01:48:27,560 --> 01:48:29,160
Speaker 1: way higher. So you know, you don't go back to

1725
01:48:29,200 --> 01:48:32,320
Speaker 1: the same like grocery store because that they've increased their prices.

1726
01:48:33,000 --> 01:48:35,720
Speaker 1: Now obviously this is like there's like this subject constraints, right, Like,

1727
01:48:35,960 --> 01:48:38,639
Speaker 1: if if you need insulin and the monopoly that controls

1728
01:48:38,680 --> 01:48:41,920
Speaker 1: insulin production, just jack's the price, You're screwed, right, there's

1729
01:48:41,960 --> 01:48:44,559
Speaker 1: no sort of like there's no other place you can

1730
01:48:44,600 --> 01:48:46,560
Speaker 1: get insulin unless you're gonna try to make it so

1731
01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:49,040
Speaker 1: your your your solutions are you either try to ration

1732
01:48:49,160 --> 01:48:51,599
Speaker 1: it and you die, or you pay for the price increases.

1733
01:48:52,360 --> 01:48:54,840
Speaker 1: And this this is bad and it does happen. But

1734
01:48:54,960 --> 01:48:57,559
Speaker 1: most goods aren't like this, and so price increases, when

1735
01:48:57,600 --> 01:49:01,200
Speaker 1: they happen, tend to be small and fairly infrequent, unless

1736
01:49:03,000 --> 01:49:05,479
Speaker 1: unless the person that the reason this doesn't this wouldn't

1737
01:49:05,479 --> 01:49:07,479
Speaker 1: happen is if the person setting the price has no choice.

1738
01:49:08,120 --> 01:49:10,200
Speaker 1: And the main reason that if you're a person setting

1739
01:49:10,240 --> 01:49:12,400
Speaker 1: a price, that you would have no choice but to

1740
01:49:12,479 --> 01:49:15,120
Speaker 1: increase like the price that that that that you're setting.

1741
01:49:15,360 --> 01:49:17,160
Speaker 1: The main reason you would do this because something happened

1742
01:49:17,160 --> 01:49:19,680
Speaker 1: to your supply chain. UM, I don't I don't know

1743
01:49:19,720 --> 01:49:21,680
Speaker 1: if you all see that. There was a TikTok going

1744
01:49:21,760 --> 01:49:25,120
Speaker 1: around from a farmer in Iowa who was talking about

1745
01:49:25,280 --> 01:49:28,960
Speaker 1: like why why food prices are gonna keep increasing? The woman, honestly,

1746
01:49:29,160 --> 01:49:32,160
Speaker 1: I bless her heart, honestly thinks that food prices are

1747
01:49:32,200 --> 01:49:33,720
Speaker 1: not going to go up. She thinks that this is

1748
01:49:33,720 --> 01:49:35,920
Speaker 1: the highest they're going to go. I tried to explain

1749
01:49:35,960 --> 01:49:37,439
Speaker 1: to her that that was not the case, that they're

1750
01:49:37,439 --> 01:49:40,240
Speaker 1: absolutely going to go up even more. Um, And I

1751
01:49:40,400 --> 01:49:42,400
Speaker 1: told her there are things that like we have to buy.

1752
01:49:42,600 --> 01:49:44,240
Speaker 1: There's something we had to buy that two years ago

1753
01:49:44,280 --> 01:49:46,880
Speaker 1: cost is four dollars. Last year was about forty six.

1754
01:49:47,120 --> 01:49:50,519
Speaker 1: This year it is costing US nineties six dollars. Okay,

1755
01:49:51,200 --> 01:49:54,160
Speaker 1: local farmer fifty had a cattle. It's costing him eight

1756
01:49:54,439 --> 01:49:58,559
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a month to feed them. Please understand, food

1757
01:49:58,600 --> 01:50:01,080
Speaker 1: prices are going to go, yeah, and so and so

1758
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:02,599
Speaker 1: you can see here what's happening. Is it like at

1759
01:50:02,640 --> 01:50:05,320
Speaker 1: some point down the supply chain, prices are increasing either

1760
01:50:05,360 --> 01:50:07,559
Speaker 1: because of like climate change, because of the word Ukraine,

1761
01:50:07,560 --> 01:50:09,720
Speaker 1: because of COVID, because of like any thousands sort of

1762
01:50:09,840 --> 01:50:13,320
Speaker 1: other factors. And eventually the like the farmers who are

1763
01:50:13,320 --> 01:50:15,960
Speaker 1: setting the prices, right, they have to increase their prices

1764
01:50:16,080 --> 01:50:19,240
Speaker 1: because they don't they don't have a choice, right, because

1765
01:50:19,240 --> 01:50:22,559
Speaker 1: because the each person further back in the suppyline as

1766
01:50:22,600 --> 01:50:25,040
Speaker 1: a charity, right, like they have to be able to

1767
01:50:25,400 --> 01:50:29,000
Speaker 1: pay a bunch of ship builds. Yeah, and and this

1768
01:50:29,200 --> 01:50:31,479
Speaker 1: this sort you know that this is the Steve calls

1769
01:50:31,479 --> 01:50:33,120
Speaker 1: it like that. He calls it the supply chain theory

1770
01:50:33,160 --> 01:50:35,840
Speaker 1: of inflation. Right, and you know in this model, like

1771
01:50:35,960 --> 01:50:39,040
Speaker 1: this is what's causing inflation, right, Each person successively down

1772
01:50:39,120 --> 01:50:41,680
Speaker 1: the line has to eat has to increase their mark

1773
01:50:41,720 --> 01:50:43,200
Speaker 1: up because they have to cover them, They have to

1774
01:50:43,280 --> 01:50:46,479
Speaker 1: cover the new, newly increased production costs. And this is

1775
01:50:46,560 --> 01:50:50,720
Speaker 1: important because unlike most models of inflation, inflation isn't being

1776
01:50:50,800 --> 01:50:53,519
Speaker 1: caused by like some kind of like giant macroeconomic thing,

1777
01:50:53,760 --> 01:50:55,760
Speaker 1: like it's not being caused by like unemployment or like

1778
01:50:55,840 --> 01:50:59,320
Speaker 1: monetary policy, but it's being caused by very very specific

1779
01:50:59,400 --> 01:51:01,719
Speaker 1: micro recon like forces that you know, there are literally

1780
01:51:01,800 --> 01:51:05,280
Speaker 1: specific people who as a reaction to a specific thing

1781
01:51:05,479 --> 01:51:10,040
Speaker 1: happening that makes production harder or increasing their prices. And

1782
01:51:10,640 --> 01:51:12,920
Speaker 1: this is a very different sort of you know that

1783
01:51:13,000 --> 01:51:14,760
Speaker 1: this is a very very different theory of inflation than

1784
01:51:14,880 --> 01:51:17,960
Speaker 1: like any of the like seventeen mainstream ones, all of

1785
01:51:17,960 --> 01:51:23,280
Speaker 1: which are bad in various ways. And yeah, and there's

1786
01:51:23,320 --> 01:51:26,040
Speaker 1: there's one other thing I want to mention though that

1787
01:51:26,160 --> 01:51:28,320
Speaker 1: kind of isn't talked about in this model, that is

1788
01:51:28,320 --> 01:51:32,800
Speaker 1: absolutely happening right now, and that's um And then something

1789
01:51:32,840 --> 01:51:35,479
Speaker 1: that is really one of the drivers of inflation, which

1790
01:51:35,520 --> 01:51:38,320
Speaker 1: is that corporations are raising prices because they think they

1791
01:51:38,360 --> 01:51:40,920
Speaker 1: can get away with it, and they're just pocketing the

1792
01:51:41,000 --> 01:51:42,760
Speaker 1: costs and and this isn't So this isn't like a

1793
01:51:42,800 --> 01:51:45,680
Speaker 1: sort of speculative thing. Uh. Companies, when you ask them

1794
01:51:45,720 --> 01:51:48,040
Speaker 1: about it, are very very open about it. Here here's

1795
01:51:48,080 --> 01:51:52,720
Speaker 1: from a Business Insider article. What we are very good

1796
01:51:52,760 --> 01:51:56,639
Speaker 1: at is pricing. Colgate Palm of Oil CEO Noah Wallace said,

1797
01:51:56,920 --> 01:52:00,639
Speaker 1: whether it's foreign exchange inflation or raw unpacking material areo inflation,

1798
01:52:00,720 --> 01:52:02,680
Speaker 1: we have found ways over time to recover that in

1799
01:52:02,760 --> 01:52:06,240
Speaker 1: our margin line. We've been we've been very comfortable with

1800
01:52:06,280 --> 01:52:08,360
Speaker 1: our ability to pass on the increases that we've seen

1801
01:52:08,400 --> 01:52:12,919
Speaker 1: at this point, said Croker CFO Gary Miller Chip in October.

1802
01:52:13,560 --> 01:52:15,559
Speaker 1: And we would expect that to continue to be the case.

1803
01:52:15,680 --> 01:52:17,960
Speaker 1: And here here's from here's from the Wall Street Journal,

1804
01:52:18,360 --> 01:52:20,200
Speaker 1: where more people talk about doing this. We have not

1805
01:52:20,320 --> 01:52:24,120
Speaker 1: seen any material reaction from consumers, Procter and Gamble finance

1806
01:52:24,240 --> 01:52:26,599
Speaker 1: chief Andre Sholton said last week, referring to a string

1807
01:52:26,680 --> 01:52:29,720
Speaker 1: of price increases that went into effect in September. So

1808
01:52:29,840 --> 01:52:33,280
Speaker 1: that makes us feel good about our relative position. Now,

1809
01:52:33,920 --> 01:52:37,479
Speaker 1: those two articles, like, just those two articles alone talk

1810
01:52:37,560 --> 01:52:40,479
Speaker 1: about prices raising, Like talk about companies that are just

1811
01:52:40,600 --> 01:52:42,439
Speaker 1: raising prices because they know consumers will pay for it.

1812
01:52:42,439 --> 01:52:45,360
Speaker 1: Because I think there's inflation happening. And those companies just

1813
01:52:45,439 --> 01:52:50,040
Speaker 1: from those two articles alone include Procter and Gamble, nest LEA, Verizon, Unilever, Colgate,

1814
01:52:50,080 --> 01:52:54,000
Speaker 1: Palm of Oil, Coca Cola, Pepsi, Gillette, Chipotle, A, T

1815
01:52:54,120 --> 01:52:57,720
Speaker 1: and T, Verizon, Kimberly, Clark Corp, Clarox, Reynolds, Kroeger's, and

1816
01:52:57,760 --> 01:53:01,240
Speaker 1: Albertson and like that. That's that's just like the corporations

1817
01:53:01,320 --> 01:53:04,120
Speaker 1: in the article that are like specifically named as talking

1818
01:53:04,160 --> 01:53:07,160
Speaker 1: about having done this right. And they can get away

1819
01:53:07,240 --> 01:53:09,800
Speaker 1: with this because normally, normally write price increases to piss

1820
01:53:09,840 --> 01:53:11,880
Speaker 1: people off, they go to go free for brands. But

1821
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:15,960
Speaker 1: if if prices across the board are already increasing, you

1822
01:53:16,000 --> 01:53:18,160
Speaker 1: can you can just like do basically like a price

1823
01:53:18,240 --> 01:53:19,960
Speaker 1: gouge increase, and you can do and you can increase

1824
01:53:19,960 --> 01:53:22,360
Speaker 1: your markup and it doesn't it doesn't affect your goodwill

1825
01:53:22,400 --> 01:53:25,000
Speaker 1: because people just assume that inflation is already happening, and

1826
01:53:25,120 --> 01:53:27,800
Speaker 1: that inflation happens sort of naturally. Is either because the

1827
01:53:27,840 --> 01:53:29,800
Speaker 1: wage like wages are too high, there's too much money

1828
01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:31,800
Speaker 1: in circulation, so oh, there's just like inflation happening. Is

1829
01:53:31,920 --> 01:53:35,080
Speaker 1: this like abstract thing instead of what is actually happening,

1830
01:53:35,120 --> 01:53:38,400
Speaker 1: which there are very specific like they're individual people with

1831
01:53:38,520 --> 01:53:41,800
Speaker 1: with names and addresses who specifically increase the price in

1832
01:53:41,920 --> 01:53:45,639
Speaker 1: order to screw you. And that that that's that's what's

1833
01:53:45,640 --> 01:53:49,040
Speaker 1: actually at stake here, and having explanation for why inflation happens,

1834
01:53:49,600 --> 01:53:52,320
Speaker 1: it tells you who to blame for it. Like right now,

1835
01:53:52,640 --> 01:53:55,000
Speaker 1: Larry Summers, who was the former Treasury secretary who was

1836
01:53:55,000 --> 01:54:01,160
Speaker 1: responsible for arguably responsible for two thousand directly responsible for

1837
01:54:01,200 --> 01:54:03,680
Speaker 1: two thousand eight h one of people who completely annihilated

1838
01:54:03,680 --> 01:54:06,800
Speaker 1: the entire Russian economy in the nineties. Uh, he is

1839
01:54:06,960 --> 01:54:09,120
Speaker 1: has apparently been on the phone with Joe Biden, and

1840
01:54:09,280 --> 01:54:12,240
Speaker 1: he is going around saying that in order to solve inflation,

1841
01:54:12,320 --> 01:54:14,720
Speaker 1: we have to cut wages, in rage the unemployment rate

1842
01:54:14,760 --> 01:54:17,320
Speaker 1: to five percent, like for five years, like on average

1843
01:54:17,320 --> 01:54:19,479
Speaker 1: five percent for five years. And so this means either

1844
01:54:20,320 --> 01:54:23,280
Speaker 1: five percent of five percent, five years of five percent inflation,

1845
01:54:23,720 --> 01:54:26,120
Speaker 1: two years of inflation at seven point five percent, or

1846
01:54:26,200 --> 01:54:29,160
Speaker 1: like one year of teen percent unemployment. And again unemployment

1847
01:54:29,240 --> 01:54:30,639
Speaker 1: right now is it like three percent? So she's talking

1848
01:54:30,680 --> 01:54:34,280
Speaker 1: about millions, potentially tens of millions of people losing their

1849
01:54:34,360 --> 01:54:36,560
Speaker 1: jobs in in order to in order to solve inflation,

1850
01:54:36,840 --> 01:54:40,200
Speaker 1: because Summers, again, Summers is going back on the sort

1851
01:54:40,200 --> 01:54:42,400
Speaker 1: of Phillips model ship, right, where inflation is caused by

1852
01:54:42,800 --> 01:54:45,480
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't even matter what's actually causing the inflation,

1853
01:54:45,480 --> 01:54:47,440
Speaker 1: which is a bunch of a combination of price gouging

1854
01:54:47,520 --> 01:54:51,200
Speaker 1: and like, uh, supply chage distructions. Right, She's going, Okay,

1855
01:54:51,960 --> 01:54:54,640
Speaker 1: who His theory isn't about what is causing inflation. His

1856
01:54:54,680 --> 01:54:56,200
Speaker 1: theory is about who's way to pay for it. And

1857
01:54:56,640 --> 01:54:59,120
Speaker 1: his solution is, fuck you. You are going to pay

1858
01:54:59,160 --> 01:55:01,120
Speaker 1: for it. You're going to pay for both the price increases,

1859
01:55:01,160 --> 01:55:03,360
Speaker 1: which the prices won't fucking come back down. That's the

1860
01:55:03,400 --> 01:55:05,560
Speaker 1: other part of this, right, Once, once you get inflation,

1861
01:55:05,600 --> 01:55:07,840
Speaker 1: and once the prices rise, they're sticky, they don't fucking fall.

1862
01:55:08,840 --> 01:55:11,960
Speaker 1: And what he's saying is, yeah, fuck you, you are

1863
01:55:12,000 --> 01:55:13,400
Speaker 1: going to pay for it. You're going to continue to

1864
01:55:13,440 --> 01:55:15,360
Speaker 1: pay these prices. You're also going to pay for it

1865
01:55:15,440 --> 01:55:18,240
Speaker 1: by reducing your wages. You're going to pay for it

1866
01:55:18,360 --> 01:55:21,360
Speaker 1: by getting fired. And you know, and this is this

1867
01:55:21,480 --> 01:55:22,720
Speaker 1: is the sort of the choice that we have, right.

1868
01:55:22,760 --> 01:55:24,840
Speaker 1: It's either we let the ruling class tell exactly the

1869
01:55:24,920 --> 01:55:28,080
Speaker 1: same stories about why inflation happens. They've been telling fifty

1870
01:55:28,200 --> 01:55:30,600
Speaker 1: years that they know we're wrong, that they that they

1871
01:55:30,680 --> 01:55:32,640
Speaker 1: know are so wrong they are desperate enough to turn

1872
01:55:32,680 --> 01:55:34,760
Speaker 1: to fucking Marxism to try to find explanations for it.

1873
01:55:35,720 --> 01:55:38,400
Speaker 1: Or we find it, we find a new like explanation

1874
01:55:38,400 --> 01:55:41,120
Speaker 1: of why fucking inflation happens, and we go back, we

1875
01:55:41,200 --> 01:55:43,120
Speaker 1: take the stuff that they've stolen from us, and then

1876
01:55:43,160 --> 01:55:45,040
Speaker 1: we appropriate the bastards so they don't do it again.

1877
01:55:46,920 --> 01:55:48,760
Speaker 1: And that is that that that that is what I

1878
01:55:48,800 --> 01:55:55,280
Speaker 1: have to say about inflation. Yeah, I mean again, what

1879
01:55:55,480 --> 01:55:59,400
Speaker 1: what we need to do is if we organize as

1880
01:55:59,440 --> 01:56:05,320
Speaker 1: a people and as the people become the vacuum tube

1881
01:56:06,080 --> 01:56:09,640
Speaker 1: that we need to shove down the esophagus of Summers

1882
01:56:09,680 --> 01:56:12,520
Speaker 1: and other members of the ruling class in order to

1883
01:56:12,640 --> 01:56:17,120
Speaker 1: inflate their organs so that their asshole widens and we

1884
01:56:17,320 --> 01:56:23,280
Speaker 1: can collectively fuck them until they deflate. Is that more

1885
01:56:23,360 --> 01:56:29,760
Speaker 1: or less accurate? Chris? Would you say? Economically? Sure? I mean,

1886
01:56:29,880 --> 01:56:32,120
Speaker 1: you know this is honestly okay, I would say, like

1887
01:56:32,200 --> 01:56:33,520
Speaker 1: this is the thing that this is the thing about

1888
01:56:33,520 --> 01:56:35,520
Speaker 1: having an explation for wine inflation happens. Right, It doesn't

1889
01:56:35,520 --> 01:56:39,120
Speaker 1: matter if it's true or not. You can. As long

1890
01:56:39,160 --> 01:56:41,440
Speaker 1: as long as you have a compelling enough explanation for

1891
01:56:41,520 --> 01:56:44,600
Speaker 1: inflation to cause people to do something, you can, you can.

1892
01:56:44,680 --> 01:56:45,960
Speaker 1: I mean, and this this is one of the things,

1893
01:56:46,000 --> 01:56:47,960
Speaker 1: for example, like this is one of the things that

1894
01:56:48,000 --> 01:56:50,960
Speaker 1: caused tenement to happen, is that there was skywalketing inflation

1895
01:56:51,040 --> 01:56:53,280
Speaker 1: and the like workers had an explanation of inflation. It

1896
01:56:53,400 --> 01:56:56,280
Speaker 1: wasn't right, like yeah, I mean that their explation for

1897
01:56:56,320 --> 01:56:59,120
Speaker 1: inflation had to do with like the like China was

1898
01:56:59,200 --> 01:57:01,160
Speaker 1: taking in a bunch of owns and the CCP was

1899
01:57:01,200 --> 01:57:03,840
Speaker 1: spending all their money on sports cars and it's like

1900
01:57:04,160 --> 01:57:06,120
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of marginal whether it was like true

1901
01:57:06,200 --> 01:57:09,520
Speaker 1: or not, but it doesn't matter, right infla inflation could

1902
01:57:09,560 --> 01:57:11,640
Speaker 1: be caused by the fact that we haven't fucking inflated

1903
01:57:15,400 --> 01:57:17,720
Speaker 1: right on that point. And this is this is this

1904
01:57:17,840 --> 01:57:22,240
Speaker 1: is true. You can look this up online. Um So,

1905
01:57:22,360 --> 01:57:27,960
Speaker 1: the original Ducktails game from nine was remastered in two

1906
01:57:28,120 --> 01:57:32,640
Speaker 1: thousand thirteen, and it was real. It was released on

1907
01:57:32,840 --> 01:57:37,960
Speaker 1: August thirteen, two thousand thirteen. The remaster of the Duct

1908
01:57:38,000 --> 01:57:41,920
Speaker 1: Tails game thirteen thirteen, both on Lucky Never. I think

1909
01:57:42,080 --> 01:57:44,240
Speaker 1: that could have just just as much to do with

1910
01:57:44,320 --> 01:57:47,840
Speaker 1: our current economic problem around inflation as basically anything else

1911
01:57:47,920 --> 01:57:52,320
Speaker 1: Chris has said here um because August two thousand thirteen

1912
01:57:52,680 --> 01:57:57,280
Speaker 1: Ducktails getting released Scrooge McDuck main character. That is too

1913
01:57:57,360 --> 01:57:59,160
Speaker 1: much to be a coincidence. Yeah, we are through the

1914
01:57:59,240 --> 01:58:02,200
Speaker 1: looking glass. I can see the nords like there's there's

1915
01:58:02,240 --> 01:58:08,240
Speaker 1: there's no getting away from this one. Look you all

1916
01:58:08,600 --> 01:58:10,880
Speaker 1: you have to do is you just gotta go. You

1917
01:58:11,000 --> 01:58:12,600
Speaker 1: gotta show up to the room with the fucking money

1918
01:58:12,720 --> 01:58:14,480
Speaker 1: is and you gotta take it from them. Do you

1919
01:58:14,520 --> 01:58:16,040
Speaker 1: guys shop up to you kind of show up to

1920
01:58:16,360 --> 01:58:20,200
Speaker 1: the factories and inflate your bosses and you will inflation

1921
01:58:20,280 --> 01:58:43,720
Speaker 1: will come down. Yeah, it would work. Everybody, welcome to

1922
01:58:44,040 --> 01:58:47,280
Speaker 1: it could happen here the podcast about stuff falling apart

1923
01:58:47,680 --> 01:58:51,360
Speaker 1: and perhaps how we could begin to put them back together. Today,

1924
01:58:51,400 --> 01:58:54,520
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Garrison Davis. We've had a lot of

1925
01:58:54,800 --> 01:58:57,520
Speaker 1: doom and gloom the past few weeks here on the pod,

1926
01:58:58,200 --> 01:59:01,000
Speaker 1: so this episode we more folks used on the putting

1927
01:59:01,080 --> 01:59:05,000
Speaker 1: stuff back together side of the spectrum. We'll be talking

1928
01:59:05,120 --> 01:59:10,240
Speaker 1: with Elizabeth Blackburn of the First Collective, a group of volunteers, organizers,

1929
01:59:10,320 --> 01:59:14,760
Speaker 1: and activists in Columbus, Ohio focused on direct grassroots action

1930
01:59:14,920 --> 01:59:19,000
Speaker 1: and mutual aid, but we'll be specifically talking about a

1931
01:59:19,200 --> 01:59:23,960
Speaker 1: volunteer run homeless encampment that's currently serving around people in

1932
01:59:24,040 --> 01:59:28,000
Speaker 1: the near east side of Columbus. Here's some of the

1933
01:59:28,200 --> 01:59:33,440
Speaker 1: history from Elizabeth. The project started as a warming station

1934
01:59:33,960 --> 01:59:39,120
Speaker 1: at the end of January UM and has morphed into

1935
01:59:39,720 --> 01:59:45,520
Speaker 1: a autonomous encampment that's largely self governed and managed by

1936
01:59:46,360 --> 01:59:49,760
Speaker 1: a loose network of mutual aid organizations that came together

1937
01:59:49,960 --> 01:59:55,400
Speaker 1: during the risings. This is this is as flatting organization

1938
01:59:55,440 --> 01:59:58,360
Speaker 1: as we can make it, and we're you know, we're

1939
01:59:58,360 --> 02:00:01,160
Speaker 1: trying to make it flatter, and I just think it's

1940
02:00:01,200 --> 02:00:04,920
Speaker 1: important that the people recognize, you know, going out with

1941
02:00:05,000 --> 02:00:08,320
Speaker 1: resources is great, but going out and finding out what

1942
02:00:08,480 --> 02:00:11,960
Speaker 1: resources people need is better. There are so many groups

1943
02:00:12,080 --> 02:00:14,760
Speaker 1: in our city that are supposed to be doing this

1944
02:00:14,920 --> 02:00:19,760
Speaker 1: work that are not, and they're being paid to do

1945
02:00:19,880 --> 02:00:25,560
Speaker 1: this work, and it's ineffective. And all I want is

1946
02:00:25,680 --> 02:00:30,240
Speaker 1: for for more people to try and do it their

1947
02:00:30,280 --> 02:00:34,040
Speaker 1: own way, to try and do what their community wants,

1948
02:00:34,320 --> 02:00:37,920
Speaker 1: you know, to the best of their abilities. We've seen

1949
02:00:38,120 --> 02:00:40,680
Speaker 1: lots of projects grow out of the mutual a networks

1950
02:00:40,760 --> 02:00:44,960
Speaker 1: that were established. It's been interesting to see how people

1951
02:00:45,040 --> 02:00:47,480
Speaker 1: in the wake of the George Floyd uprising have built

1952
02:00:47,480 --> 02:00:50,480
Speaker 1: off things that started two years ago, what's changed in

1953
02:00:50,560 --> 02:00:54,560
Speaker 1: their practice, and how it's evolved since then. This past

1954
02:00:54,640 --> 02:00:58,480
Speaker 1: winter in this area of Columbus, Ohio, there was community

1955
02:00:58,640 --> 02:01:01,880
Speaker 1: needs not being at people having to be out in

1956
02:01:01,960 --> 02:01:04,600
Speaker 1: the cold and not having a place to stay. This

1957
02:01:04,760 --> 02:01:08,240
Speaker 1: problem was recognized by people, but unfortunately, far too many

1958
02:01:08,280 --> 02:01:11,800
Speaker 1: people just look at problems and just be like, oh, yes,

1959
02:01:12,200 --> 02:01:15,520
Speaker 1: here's the thing that sucks. Well, that's too bad. But

1960
02:01:15,760 --> 02:01:18,400
Speaker 1: today we'll be talking about how a collective of people

1961
02:01:18,960 --> 02:01:22,120
Speaker 1: didn't simply acknowledge a problem, but actually went past that

1962
02:01:22,240 --> 02:01:25,520
Speaker 1: point and decided that even with limited resources, they have

1963
02:01:25,640 --> 02:01:28,240
Speaker 1: the capacity to actually figure out how to solve this

1964
02:01:28,440 --> 02:01:32,400
Speaker 1: themselves and provide a solution for the community. I think

1965
02:01:32,440 --> 02:01:35,600
Speaker 1: the first time I really tried something like that was

1966
02:01:35,680 --> 02:01:39,880
Speaker 1: in December. A friend of mine had reached out about

1967
02:01:40,040 --> 02:01:42,120
Speaker 1: a camp on the south side of Columbus that was

1968
02:01:42,200 --> 02:01:45,960
Speaker 1: being swept by the city and they had needs. They

1969
02:01:46,080 --> 02:01:49,280
Speaker 1: needed new tents so they could set up elsewhere, They

1970
02:01:50,120 --> 02:01:53,200
Speaker 1: needed food and water like they always did, and they

1971
02:01:53,240 --> 02:01:56,960
Speaker 1: needed people to be there. Um to keep, you know,

1972
02:01:57,040 --> 02:02:00,800
Speaker 1: to prevent violence from occurring as much as possible. UM. So,

1973
02:02:00,920 --> 02:02:05,280
Speaker 1: hearing about that, I started a I set up on

1974
02:02:05,320 --> 02:02:10,080
Speaker 1: my street in a bougie part of Columbus um with

1975
02:02:10,200 --> 02:02:14,120
Speaker 1: a little sign and collected goods whatever people dropped off.

1976
02:02:14,160 --> 02:02:18,080
Speaker 1: I collected money. Um. I raised about two thousand dollars

1977
02:02:18,600 --> 02:02:21,760
Speaker 1: and uh, I think we ended up buying around twenty

1978
02:02:21,840 --> 02:02:24,840
Speaker 1: two tenths. UM got other people there as well, and

1979
02:02:25,000 --> 02:02:26,800
Speaker 1: tried to make sure everybody had what they needed so

1980
02:02:26,840 --> 02:02:29,760
Speaker 1: they could get set up elsewhere. But that was my first,

1981
02:02:29,920 --> 02:02:32,880
Speaker 1: like my first experience with that, doing it hands on

1982
02:02:33,240 --> 02:02:36,600
Speaker 1: and seeing that that worked, that encouraged me to do more.

1983
02:02:37,680 --> 02:02:40,760
Speaker 1: So that. How has it grown and changed since then?

1984
02:02:40,920 --> 02:02:43,640
Speaker 1: There's still a need for people to stay. Um it

1985
02:02:43,720 --> 02:02:47,480
Speaker 1: still gets pretty cold at night. Um So how throughout

1986
02:02:47,560 --> 02:02:50,680
Speaker 1: throughout winter? How did the project kind of morphin change?

1987
02:02:50,800 --> 02:02:54,480
Speaker 1: How do you go about finding like places to actually

1988
02:02:54,520 --> 02:02:56,640
Speaker 1: like set up the physical spot, right, Like, that's that's

1989
02:02:56,680 --> 02:02:58,840
Speaker 1: a whole it's a whole other problem. Um is all

1990
02:02:58,920 --> 02:03:03,200
Speaker 1: like the is all like the logistical side of things, Yeah, exactly. Um, Well,

1991
02:03:03,400 --> 02:03:06,480
Speaker 1: we happened to have a space late last fall. I

1992
02:03:06,640 --> 02:03:10,080
Speaker 1: was invited to join a collective at first, collective that

1993
02:03:10,280 --> 02:03:15,600
Speaker 1: was operating out of a church that largely um falling

1994
02:03:15,640 --> 02:03:19,720
Speaker 1: into disrepair, but still operating as a church, and because

1995
02:03:19,760 --> 02:03:22,360
Speaker 1: we had that space, a couple of members of the

1996
02:03:22,400 --> 02:03:27,120
Speaker 1: collective encountered some folks in the neighborhood who needed a

1997
02:03:27,160 --> 02:03:29,040
Speaker 1: place to sleep. They were sleeping in a bus stop

1998
02:03:29,280 --> 02:03:33,640
Speaker 1: on a snowy night, and we just decided to start

1999
02:03:33,680 --> 02:03:35,800
Speaker 1: giving them a place to stay because we had a place.

2000
02:03:36,800 --> 02:03:40,840
Speaker 1: It wasn't a super popular decision, but um, we had

2001
02:03:40,920 --> 02:03:44,640
Speaker 1: community back in. Conflicts from some people in the neighborhood

2002
02:03:44,720 --> 02:03:48,800
Speaker 1: who were more nimby minded did obviously come up, along

2003
02:03:48,840 --> 02:03:51,800
Speaker 1: with the complaints from the church that the first collective

2004
02:03:51,960 --> 02:03:55,800
Speaker 1: was operating out of. For the community's part, when we

2005
02:03:55,880 --> 02:03:57,720
Speaker 1: were at the church, we were in a part of

2006
02:03:57,760 --> 02:04:01,720
Speaker 1: the neighborhood that had largely been gentrified, and so there

2007
02:04:01,880 --> 02:04:07,760
Speaker 1: was some some resistance, some concern about the changing face

2008
02:04:07,880 --> 02:04:11,600
Speaker 1: of the community and about the safety of kids and

2009
02:04:11,760 --> 02:04:14,840
Speaker 1: so on and so forth. But we didn't have any

2010
02:04:14,920 --> 02:04:19,000
Speaker 1: real safety concerns, not not in our not inside beyond

2011
02:04:19,080 --> 02:04:22,760
Speaker 1: a couple encounters that we had to deescalate um and

2012
02:04:22,840 --> 02:04:25,440
Speaker 1: a few people that we had to remove for based

2013
02:04:25,480 --> 02:04:30,680
Speaker 1: on their behavior UM, but from inside the church, from

2014
02:04:30,760 --> 02:04:35,120
Speaker 1: the church organization UM. The conflict started pretty early on.

2015
02:04:36,120 --> 02:04:38,680
Speaker 1: They didn't really like how we operated, and we got

2016
02:04:38,760 --> 02:04:42,720
Speaker 1: a reputation as a warming space with no rules, and

2017
02:04:42,880 --> 02:04:46,440
Speaker 1: so they felt like because couples could sleep next to

2018
02:04:46,520 --> 02:04:49,280
Speaker 1: each other, UM, because people could go outside for a

2019
02:04:49,360 --> 02:04:52,040
Speaker 1: cigarette at night, because they weren't locked in the building,

2020
02:04:52,840 --> 02:04:57,120
Speaker 1: that we were running a space that was out of control.

2021
02:04:57,920 --> 02:05:02,120
Speaker 1: Well until we were kicked out of the church on

2022
02:05:02,800 --> 02:05:06,560
Speaker 1: March twenty nine. I think it was the physical infrastructure

2023
02:05:06,680 --> 02:05:08,680
Speaker 1: was there. It was just a matter of getting caughts

2024
02:05:08,840 --> 02:05:12,560
Speaker 1: and blankets and making sure that people had food. Most

2025
02:05:12,600 --> 02:05:16,560
Speaker 1: of that was either through just one off donations to

2026
02:05:16,680 --> 02:05:19,360
Speaker 1: my cash app or I bought it with my own

2027
02:05:19,440 --> 02:05:23,520
Speaker 1: funds UM. Once we were forced to move outside, it

2028
02:05:23,640 --> 02:05:27,400
Speaker 1: got a lot more complicated UM because at that point

2029
02:05:27,600 --> 02:05:29,960
Speaker 1: we didn't have any tents UM. We had to go

2030
02:05:30,080 --> 02:05:34,040
Speaker 1: out that night and purchase. The day that we were removed,

2031
02:05:34,120 --> 02:05:35,640
Speaker 1: we had to go out and purchase I believed ten

2032
02:05:35,760 --> 02:05:39,280
Speaker 1: tents to start and then had a couple dropped off UM.

2033
02:05:39,800 --> 02:05:44,200
Speaker 1: We now held around twenty tents UM. A lot of

2034
02:05:44,280 --> 02:05:48,000
Speaker 1: those were purchased by by me or by donations that

2035
02:05:48,080 --> 02:05:52,080
Speaker 1: we received UM or had been dropped off by by

2036
02:05:52,160 --> 02:05:56,000
Speaker 1: friends or people in the neighborhood. UM that has been

2037
02:05:56,160 --> 02:05:59,200
Speaker 1: you know, the physical infrastructure is mostly tents and canopies,

2038
02:05:59,440 --> 02:06:04,040
Speaker 1: and most of them are being held up by pieces

2039
02:06:04,120 --> 02:06:08,240
Speaker 1: of old tents or large tree limbs or whatever we

2040
02:06:08,360 --> 02:06:11,400
Speaker 1: can to survive the wind, because it's been nothing but

2041
02:06:11,480 --> 02:06:15,640
Speaker 1: windstorms for the past well since we got here. Our

2042
02:06:15,760 --> 02:06:18,680
Speaker 1: first camp site was set up on a lot that

2043
02:06:18,840 --> 02:06:22,560
Speaker 1: was connected to the farm four Seasons City Farm UM.

2044
02:06:22,800 --> 02:06:27,640
Speaker 1: Several of the members of the collective are former paid

2045
02:06:27,680 --> 02:06:31,680
Speaker 1: employees of the farm or multi year volunteers. It's a

2046
02:06:32,440 --> 02:06:34,960
Speaker 1: it's a large organization on this part in this part

2047
02:06:35,000 --> 02:06:38,600
Speaker 1: of the town UM Old Town East UM, with about

2048
02:06:38,760 --> 02:06:44,040
Speaker 1: fifteen I believe years of history and goodwill UM. So

2049
02:06:44,160 --> 02:06:46,640
Speaker 1: we set up next to their lot. But because they're

2050
02:06:46,680 --> 02:06:49,680
Speaker 1: on land bank land, we we didn't want to interfere

2051
02:06:49,800 --> 02:06:54,200
Speaker 1: with their lease with the city. So rather than risk

2052
02:06:54,320 --> 02:06:59,160
Speaker 1: the farm getting fined or UM having having their least broken,

2053
02:07:00,080 --> 02:07:04,160
Speaker 1: we we look next door to a lot on the

2054
02:07:04,240 --> 02:07:07,240
Speaker 1: other side of a chain length fence m two lots actually,

2055
02:07:07,960 --> 02:07:10,360
Speaker 1: one is owned by the city. That's the one where

2056
02:07:10,400 --> 02:07:13,160
Speaker 1: most of our tents are and then one is owned

2057
02:07:13,240 --> 02:07:18,120
Speaker 1: by a private owner who's a rather wealthy person in

2058
02:07:18,160 --> 02:07:21,920
Speaker 1: the neighborhood. UM. We've done our best to stay on

2059
02:07:21,960 --> 02:07:24,960
Speaker 1: the city lot and that has been good for us.

2060
02:07:25,080 --> 02:07:28,600
Speaker 1: But we're also maintaining both lots and doing our best

2061
02:07:28,680 --> 02:07:32,560
Speaker 1: to keep the trash to a minimum UM to make

2062
02:07:32,600 --> 02:07:35,240
Speaker 1: sure that we're not tearying up the ground as much

2063
02:07:35,280 --> 02:07:37,120
Speaker 1: as we can, though it's hard with all this rain,

2064
02:07:38,360 --> 02:07:40,560
Speaker 1: h and and just do our best to be good

2065
02:07:40,600 --> 02:07:43,720
Speaker 1: neighbors UM and I think that has helped us a lot.

2066
02:07:44,800 --> 02:07:49,240
Speaker 1: In recent years, lower class Columbus area residents lost twenty

2067
02:07:49,360 --> 02:07:53,480
Speaker 1: thousand units of housing due to unaffordable spiking rent prices

2068
02:07:54,320 --> 02:07:57,960
Speaker 1: and annual point in time tally this year organized by

2069
02:07:58,360 --> 02:08:01,280
Speaker 1: the Community Shelter Board on the number of homeless people

2070
02:08:01,440 --> 02:08:05,960
Speaker 1: in official Columbus and Franklin County emergency shelters increased by

2071
02:08:06,040 --> 02:08:10,560
Speaker 1: more than two hundred people since one and online data

2072
02:08:10,640 --> 02:08:13,800
Speaker 1: from the Shelter Board of a nonprofit organization that receives

2073
02:08:13,840 --> 02:08:17,320
Speaker 1: funding from the City of Columbus and other organizations, indicates

2074
02:08:17,400 --> 02:08:21,360
Speaker 1: that as of March, there was a seven percent drop

2075
02:08:21,520 --> 02:08:24,560
Speaker 1: in the rate of people exiting their program and moving

2076
02:08:24,640 --> 02:08:28,040
Speaker 1: into stable housing as compared to last year, going from

2077
02:08:28,080 --> 02:08:31,880
Speaker 1: thirty three percent to twenty six A lot of times

2078
02:08:32,120 --> 02:08:35,520
Speaker 1: more formalized shelters are not ideal for people to stay in.

2079
02:08:36,080 --> 02:08:39,640
Speaker 1: There's many issues with the formalized shelters regarding the specific

2080
02:08:39,760 --> 02:08:42,200
Speaker 1: rules of when you can get inside, how long you

2081
02:08:42,280 --> 02:08:45,600
Speaker 1: can be inside, whether you're locked inside the building, what

2082
02:08:45,880 --> 02:08:48,960
Speaker 1: stuff you can bring with you. At best, they are

2083
02:08:49,120 --> 02:08:53,080
Speaker 1: challenging to navigate. At worst, they're simply hostile to people

2084
02:08:53,280 --> 02:08:57,040
Speaker 1: looking for shelter. I asked Elizabeth what her take on

2085
02:08:57,160 --> 02:09:00,240
Speaker 1: the homeless shelter situation is like in Columbus and the

2086
02:09:00,320 --> 02:09:04,040
Speaker 1: ways their encampment is different from the more official shelters.

2087
02:09:04,760 --> 02:09:07,240
Speaker 1: We have limited beds, and then the beds that are

2088
02:09:07,280 --> 02:09:12,800
Speaker 1: available are mostly under the governance of the Shelter Board,

2089
02:09:13,560 --> 02:09:16,720
Speaker 1: and the shelter Board wasn't too fond of us either

2090
02:09:17,680 --> 02:09:22,600
Speaker 1: because we weren't following all their rules. And there are

2091
02:09:22,600 --> 02:09:24,960
Speaker 1: a lot of concerns about the way the shelters run.

2092
02:09:25,520 --> 02:09:27,960
Speaker 1: The people that stay with us, the people that come through,

2093
02:09:29,560 --> 02:09:34,920
Speaker 1: they feel safer here. Um there's considerably less drug use.

2094
02:09:35,680 --> 02:09:39,360
Speaker 1: There's basically no distribution. We try to keep a handle

2095
02:09:39,440 --> 02:09:42,240
Speaker 1: on that because it you know, would bring problems to

2096
02:09:42,320 --> 02:09:45,160
Speaker 1: the camp should it happen there. Um, we are a

2097
02:09:45,240 --> 02:09:48,920
Speaker 1: safe use space. We do have harm reduction materials and

2098
02:09:48,960 --> 02:09:51,800
Speaker 1: they know that, UM, and we we do our best

2099
02:09:51,920 --> 02:09:53,960
Speaker 1: to you know, just make sure that people have the

2100
02:09:54,040 --> 02:09:57,160
Speaker 1: care and the safety that they need. And that is

2101
02:09:57,240 --> 02:09:59,040
Speaker 1: kind of a dirty word. While all of those are

2102
02:09:59,120 --> 02:10:05,600
Speaker 1: kind of dirty words. And the shelter organizing community, I guess,

2103
02:10:05,920 --> 02:10:11,440
Speaker 1: UM care and and you know, making people comfortable, it's

2104
02:10:11,480 --> 02:10:16,000
Speaker 1: just not really the goal. Next I asked about what

2105
02:10:16,240 --> 02:10:20,080
Speaker 1: types of connections the encampment and First Collective have been

2106
02:10:20,160 --> 02:10:24,839
Speaker 1: making with various organizations for infrastructural support or daily needs,

2107
02:10:25,360 --> 02:10:28,480
Speaker 1: as well as inquiring about the relations the camp has

2108
02:10:28,560 --> 02:10:32,920
Speaker 1: with the city government. Here is Elizabeth's response. Really reached

2109
02:10:32,960 --> 02:10:37,480
Speaker 1: out to the different you know, harm reduction groups, the

2110
02:10:37,640 --> 02:10:45,600
Speaker 1: different houselessness groups that the emergency action groups, UH, different

2111
02:10:45,720 --> 02:10:49,480
Speaker 1: serve groups, and we just asked them to bring what

2112
02:10:49,560 --> 02:10:52,320
Speaker 1: they could or to send people if they could, just

2113
02:10:53,320 --> 02:10:56,800
Speaker 1: you know, whatever they could spare. And and it's worked. UM.

2114
02:10:57,080 --> 02:11:00,840
Speaker 1: People show up with whatever they have to offer. UM

2115
02:11:01,200 --> 02:11:04,640
Speaker 1: from all over the city and and just from around

2116
02:11:04,680 --> 02:11:08,680
Speaker 1: the corner, which has been wonderful that the grassroots community

2117
02:11:08,720 --> 02:11:11,640
Speaker 1: support is just blowing my mind. I thought they were

2118
02:11:11,680 --> 02:11:14,400
Speaker 1: going to hate us, and here we are like making

2119
02:11:14,440 --> 02:11:17,760
Speaker 1: friends with everybody. Our first goal is to make sure

2120
02:11:17,840 --> 02:11:21,040
Speaker 1: that we've met people's needs as best we can. Um.

2121
02:11:21,680 --> 02:11:25,920
Speaker 1: You know that that involves right now, UM, keeping propane

2122
02:11:26,160 --> 02:11:28,760
Speaker 1: on site so that they can cook some of the

2123
02:11:28,800 --> 02:11:31,680
Speaker 1: food that's brought. Um. We get a lot of prepared meals,

2124
02:11:31,720 --> 02:11:34,480
Speaker 1: but we also get a lot of ingredients, and there

2125
02:11:34,520 --> 02:11:37,480
Speaker 1: are quite a few people here that cook and have

2126
02:11:38,560 --> 02:11:42,160
Speaker 1: done pretty miraculous things with a couple of propane girls. Um.

2127
02:11:42,840 --> 02:11:46,000
Speaker 1: We try and have meals prepared every day, but it

2128
02:11:46,080 --> 02:11:48,480
Speaker 1: doesn't doesn't always work out, and sometimes we fill the

2129
02:11:48,520 --> 02:11:53,480
Speaker 1: gaps with little Caesar's or or something else, um whatever

2130
02:11:53,640 --> 02:11:56,160
Speaker 1: whatever it can be scraunged up at the last minute.

2131
02:11:57,360 --> 02:12:00,520
Speaker 1: Some of our biggest allies so far have been and um,

2132
02:12:01,120 --> 02:12:05,840
Speaker 1: the local food not bombs. Uh, they've been wonderful, as

2133
02:12:05,880 --> 02:12:11,920
Speaker 1: well as some different church groups that that run nonprofits

2134
02:12:11,960 --> 02:12:14,800
Speaker 1: like Community Kitchen. We got our meals provided six days

2135
02:12:14,800 --> 02:12:17,720
Speaker 1: a week by church that's basically down the street and

2136
02:12:17,760 --> 02:12:20,400
Speaker 1: around the corner. But as far as the city goes.

2137
02:12:20,960 --> 02:12:22,760
Speaker 1: For the first couple of days, there were a lot

2138
02:12:22,840 --> 02:12:28,280
Speaker 1: of roll bys um, a lot of city officials taking pictures,

2139
02:12:28,520 --> 02:12:31,240
Speaker 1: no one really talking to us, but you know, there

2140
02:12:31,360 --> 02:12:36,960
Speaker 1: was clearly concern. It wasn't until a man who works

2141
02:12:37,000 --> 02:12:40,280
Speaker 1: for the city and outreach under the Safety and Security Department,

2142
02:12:40,600 --> 02:12:45,280
Speaker 1: Sean Stevenson, came out and talked to us. Uh that

2143
02:12:45,520 --> 02:12:48,840
Speaker 1: we really started to see the possibilities of working with

2144
02:12:48,960 --> 02:12:51,640
Speaker 1: the city and in so much as they let us.

2145
02:12:52,440 --> 02:12:57,280
Speaker 1: He brought a city attorney, Steve Dunbar, and a gentleman

2146
02:12:57,360 --> 02:13:01,280
Speaker 1: from the mayor's office, UM, Jason jim Ends by Q

2147
02:13:01,520 --> 02:13:07,680
Speaker 1: talk to our folks, and they listened. They listened to

2148
02:13:07,760 --> 02:13:10,320
Speaker 1: the people at the camp, who explained to them why

2149
02:13:10,360 --> 02:13:13,320
Speaker 1: they were here, explained to them why the resources that

2150
02:13:13,400 --> 02:13:16,440
Speaker 1: are available didn't work for them. You know, it was

2151
02:13:16,640 --> 02:13:22,160
Speaker 1: a it was a tearful conversation and since then they've

2152
02:13:22,360 --> 02:13:25,760
Speaker 1: largely left us alone. UM. We wish that they would

2153
02:13:25,760 --> 02:13:27,960
Speaker 1: provide some of the resources that they talked about, like

2154
02:13:28,160 --> 02:13:32,040
Speaker 1: a couple of porta potties and a dumpster, but you know,

2155
02:13:32,160 --> 02:13:35,080
Speaker 1: we we do our best or their composting toilet and

2156
02:13:36,200 --> 02:13:40,480
Speaker 1: the good grace of some very kind neighbors. Police raids

2157
02:13:40,560 --> 02:13:44,080
Speaker 1: and sweeps are always an existential fear for those living

2158
02:13:44,160 --> 02:13:48,280
Speaker 1: in diway encampments. Here's what Elizabeth had to say about

2159
02:13:48,360 --> 02:13:53,680
Speaker 1: sweeps and police interactions. What we've been told is that

2160
02:13:54,760 --> 02:13:57,920
Speaker 1: they are They've been told to leave us alone. We've

2161
02:13:57,960 --> 02:14:00,520
Speaker 1: heard this from the cops themselves. We heard this from

2162
02:14:00,560 --> 02:14:03,680
Speaker 1: people who have talked to them. UM. But the precinct

2163
02:14:03,840 --> 02:14:06,760
Speaker 1: that is in this area has been told not to

2164
02:14:07,240 --> 02:14:10,200
Speaker 1: mess with us unless there is a violent conflict. The

2165
02:14:10,320 --> 02:14:14,800
Speaker 1: thing to do prop stuff at. There are a lot

2166
02:14:14,880 --> 02:14:17,720
Speaker 1: of sweeps that have been threatened around the city of

2167
02:14:17,840 --> 02:14:23,160
Speaker 1: different camps. UM. They've received notice or notice of notice,

2168
02:14:23,320 --> 02:14:25,720
Speaker 1: so they don't know exactly when, but it's supposed to

2169
02:14:25,760 --> 02:14:30,640
Speaker 1: happen sometime. UM. But as far as we're concerned, we

2170
02:14:31,040 --> 02:14:34,960
Speaker 1: haven't really had that problem. UM crops have come through.

2171
02:14:35,680 --> 02:14:37,960
Speaker 1: There are a couple of times when they've been called

2172
02:14:38,080 --> 02:14:43,960
Speaker 1: by by people disgruntled residents or um by neighbors, but

2173
02:14:44,840 --> 02:14:47,640
Speaker 1: for the most part, they talked to us and then

2174
02:14:47,680 --> 02:14:51,160
Speaker 1: they leave. We we do our best as volunteers to

2175
02:14:51,720 --> 02:14:55,800
Speaker 1: get between the police and other other groups that come

2176
02:14:55,840 --> 02:14:58,880
Speaker 1: out UM, even even the outreach groups that we know

2177
02:14:59,200 --> 02:15:02,560
Speaker 1: are are here to help, just because those interactions can

2178
02:15:02,880 --> 02:15:07,160
Speaker 1: can quickly get volatile. If you know if people aren't

2179
02:15:07,240 --> 02:15:10,960
Speaker 1: sure about other people's intentions. So I would say that

2180
02:15:12,880 --> 02:15:14,800
Speaker 1: one of the best interactions I've had with the cops

2181
02:15:14,960 --> 02:15:17,480
Speaker 1: is they did come through here once and talk to

2182
02:15:17,560 --> 02:15:23,440
Speaker 1: a few folks, and a sergeant from the police department said, um,

2183
02:15:23,720 --> 02:15:27,360
Speaker 1: roughly that they couldn't make us leave because this was

2184
02:15:27,440 --> 02:15:29,600
Speaker 1: city land and they didn't have anywhere else to send us.

2185
02:15:30,360 --> 02:15:34,920
Speaker 1: So okay, I'll take it. I've got it. I've got

2186
02:15:34,960 --> 02:15:39,400
Speaker 1: the dr assaultation. Elizabeth does hope that one day the

2187
02:15:39,480 --> 02:15:43,400
Speaker 1: relations between the church that first Collective was previously operating

2188
02:15:43,480 --> 02:15:46,920
Speaker 1: out of could be mended and once again work to

2189
02:15:47,200 --> 02:15:50,800
Speaker 1: utilize the space to serve the Wedder community. She also

2190
02:15:50,840 --> 02:15:54,480
Speaker 1: discussed the possibility of moving into vacant buildings and hoping

2191
02:15:54,560 --> 02:15:57,720
Speaker 1: to restore them while also having a place to provide

2192
02:15:57,800 --> 02:16:02,040
Speaker 1: more stable housing. So where the church is concerned, UM,

2193
02:16:02,920 --> 02:16:06,600
Speaker 1: I haven't given apprope. We we aren't in the building now.

2194
02:16:07,000 --> 02:16:10,560
Speaker 1: I don't have a key, but I got a church

2195
02:16:10,600 --> 02:16:13,880
Speaker 1: every Sunday. Um I'm not I'm not a Christian. I

2196
02:16:13,880 --> 02:16:17,360
Speaker 1: don't believe in God, but I do like the messages

2197
02:16:17,920 --> 02:16:22,800
Speaker 1: that I get there, and I I want to continue

2198
02:16:22,840 --> 02:16:25,560
Speaker 1: to use this really wonderful building as a part of

2199
02:16:25,600 --> 02:16:28,600
Speaker 1: the community, you know it's there. There are a lot

2200
02:16:28,640 --> 02:16:32,240
Speaker 1: of goals that that we as a camp have and

2201
02:16:32,400 --> 02:16:34,720
Speaker 1: some of them include the church and we we'd love

2202
02:16:34,800 --> 02:16:39,200
Speaker 1: to get back into that space and fix the two

2203
02:16:39,320 --> 02:16:43,160
Speaker 1: bathrooms in the basement that are just sitting there, build

2204
02:16:43,200 --> 02:16:49,000
Speaker 1: some showers, laundry facilities, a free store, kitchen. There's there's

2205
02:16:49,000 --> 02:16:51,040
Speaker 1: so much that we could do if we could utilize

2206
02:16:51,080 --> 02:16:54,680
Speaker 1: that building in addition to the the infrastructure that we

2207
02:16:54,760 --> 02:16:59,879
Speaker 1: have here um. But when it comes to two buildings

2208
02:17:00,000 --> 02:17:03,920
Speaker 1: something more. We're currently working on a proposal for the

2209
02:17:04,000 --> 02:17:08,840
Speaker 1: city for some of the relief funds that have been

2210
02:17:08,879 --> 02:17:14,480
Speaker 1: received but not dispersed with the goals of ideally building

2211
02:17:15,160 --> 02:17:18,480
Speaker 1: little cabins on platforms on the lot that we're on now,

2212
02:17:19,120 --> 02:17:21,520
Speaker 1: just to start to get people out of tents, to

2213
02:17:21,879 --> 02:17:25,560
Speaker 1: start meeting some of the code requirements to improve the

2214
02:17:25,640 --> 02:17:29,560
Speaker 1: sanitary and living conditions, and then from there we'll ask

2215
02:17:29,640 --> 02:17:32,640
Speaker 1: them to give us a building to restore. There's a

2216
02:17:32,720 --> 02:17:35,320
Speaker 1: lot of really skilled people out here and they want

2217
02:17:35,320 --> 02:17:37,720
Speaker 1: to work, and they want to work on all of

2218
02:17:37,840 --> 02:17:40,960
Speaker 1: these old buildings that have been allowed to fall apart

2219
02:17:41,040 --> 02:17:44,880
Speaker 1: all over the city. There are so many rooms available.

2220
02:17:44,959 --> 02:17:47,120
Speaker 1: There's so many units that they could work on that

2221
02:17:47,240 --> 02:17:50,160
Speaker 1: they could live in, and I think that's what they

2222
02:17:50,160 --> 02:17:51,480
Speaker 1: want to do, So that's what we're going to try

2223
02:17:51,520 --> 02:17:54,320
Speaker 1: and help them do. The camp functions under a sort

2224
02:17:54,360 --> 02:17:58,920
Speaker 1: of direct democracy with residents and first collective volunteers, some

2225
02:17:59,080 --> 02:18:03,160
Speaker 1: of whom are all residents, hold regular community meetings where

2226
02:18:03,240 --> 02:18:08,360
Speaker 1: camp occupants vote to make decisions about camp guidelines. There

2227
02:18:08,400 --> 02:18:11,800
Speaker 1: has been a couple instances of violence, UM, a couple

2228
02:18:12,680 --> 02:18:16,360
Speaker 1: particularly scary moments that we had to try and de escalate.

2229
02:18:16,640 --> 02:18:20,880
Speaker 1: And there's sometimes that we didn't handle things as best

2230
02:18:20,959 --> 02:18:25,400
Speaker 1: we could UM, but we we try, and we tried

2231
02:18:25,520 --> 02:18:29,520
Speaker 1: to talk through the way that the way that it

2232
02:18:29,600 --> 02:18:34,480
Speaker 1: goes down with the residents, among the volunteers. UM. We

2233
02:18:34,560 --> 02:18:37,720
Speaker 1: try to be transparent about you know, why why we

2234
02:18:37,800 --> 02:18:40,680
Speaker 1: make some of the decisions that we do, and for

2235
02:18:40,800 --> 02:18:43,160
Speaker 1: the most part, we leave it to the community. UM.

2236
02:18:43,560 --> 02:18:48,760
Speaker 1: There have been some really great community meetings go so long, UM,

2237
02:18:49,040 --> 02:18:52,240
Speaker 1: but they talk about everything they talk about, you know,

2238
02:18:52,440 --> 02:18:57,600
Speaker 1: shared concerns about safety, concerns about how they want to

2239
02:18:57,680 --> 02:19:01,960
Speaker 1: live together and what would make and feel safer, and

2240
02:19:02,720 --> 02:19:10,000
Speaker 1: established guidelines and occasionally vote to remove people. So UM,

2241
02:19:10,080 --> 02:19:13,360
Speaker 1: we've managed to resolve some of those conflicts before they

2242
02:19:13,400 --> 02:19:17,760
Speaker 1: went that far. I initially talked with Elizabeth in May two,

2243
02:19:18,200 --> 02:19:19,720
Speaker 1: but I was able to catch up with her a

2244
02:19:19,800 --> 02:19:22,120
Speaker 1: few weeks ago to hear about what's been going on

2245
02:19:22,400 --> 02:19:25,400
Speaker 1: the past month. UM. I just wanted to kind of

2246
02:19:25,600 --> 02:19:27,680
Speaker 1: fill you in on what we've been up to UM

2247
02:19:28,000 --> 02:19:31,480
Speaker 1: over the past month or so. It's it's been busy. UM.

2248
02:19:32,080 --> 02:19:34,840
Speaker 1: We've been to a lot of Area Commission meetings for

2249
02:19:35,040 --> 02:19:39,440
Speaker 1: the different areas of the city to try and make

2250
02:19:39,520 --> 02:19:44,520
Speaker 1: some allies and talk to people about what we think

2251
02:19:44,640 --> 02:19:47,480
Speaker 1: is a solution to a problem they don't know how

2252
02:19:47,520 --> 02:19:51,160
Speaker 1: to solve, but to get some unwanted attention. A local station,

2253
02:19:51,320 --> 02:19:54,360
Speaker 1: Tim TB came through with a bit of an agenda.

2254
02:19:55,120 --> 02:19:57,160
Speaker 1: Right now, the city of Columbus has a problem and

2255
02:19:57,240 --> 02:20:00,360
Speaker 1: it has to do with homelessness. I can't set up

2256
02:20:00,400 --> 02:20:03,080
Speaker 1: on city property along East Mound Street in the middle

2257
02:20:03,120 --> 02:20:06,040
Speaker 1: of the Near East Side neighborhood, is raising questions tonight

2258
02:20:06,120 --> 02:20:08,920
Speaker 1: about whether the twenty people who live there should be

2259
02:20:08,959 --> 02:20:12,080
Speaker 1: allowed to stay are forced to go to Kevin Landers

2260
02:20:12,120 --> 02:20:14,560
Speaker 1: has been working the story all day. Today. He went

2261
02:20:14,640 --> 02:20:16,760
Speaker 1: to the camp and spoke to those who lived there

2262
02:20:16,840 --> 02:20:20,280
Speaker 1: and got answers from city leaders about addressing concerns from

2263
02:20:20,320 --> 02:20:24,120
Speaker 1: neighbors who say that camp it's got to go. This

2264
02:20:24,400 --> 02:20:27,800
Speaker 1: on Housing community is located on East Mound Street. The

2265
02:20:27,879 --> 02:20:31,320
Speaker 1: people who live here, the city says, are technically trespassing.

2266
02:20:31,640 --> 02:20:33,640
Speaker 1: The city says they're going to let them stay here

2267
02:20:33,760 --> 02:20:37,400
Speaker 1: until they can find housing, but not everybody wants them here.

2268
02:20:37,920 --> 02:20:42,240
Speaker 1: They wanted to talk specifically about our sanitation situation and

2269
02:20:42,320 --> 02:20:45,920
Speaker 1: nothing else. Um. I told them we've been waiting on

2270
02:20:46,000 --> 02:20:50,920
Speaker 1: the city since abol fifteen for the dumpster the Port

2271
02:20:50,959 --> 02:20:53,880
Speaker 1: of John's if they'd offered, but um, they were still

2272
02:20:53,920 --> 02:20:56,280
Speaker 1: looking into it. So we took it into our own hands.

2273
02:20:57,040 --> 02:21:00,080
Speaker 1: All that attention, we needed to do something, So we

2274
02:21:00,200 --> 02:21:05,280
Speaker 1: contracted a porta john company who is currently donating to

2275
02:21:05,480 --> 02:21:09,200
Speaker 1: porta John's and servicing it once a week. Um, which

2276
02:21:09,240 --> 02:21:12,640
Speaker 1: is great. Uh. We had a compost toilet before and

2277
02:21:12,879 --> 02:21:16,800
Speaker 1: this is so much better. Um. And we went out

2278
02:21:16,840 --> 02:21:19,720
Speaker 1: of pocket to pay for the trash service. So we're

2279
02:21:19,840 --> 02:21:23,800
Speaker 1: getting our own trash service. Trash service now once a week. Um.

2280
02:21:23,879 --> 02:21:27,120
Speaker 1: It's not quite enough, but it certainly helps you see

2281
02:21:27,160 --> 02:21:30,320
Speaker 1: code enforcement go by all the time. Um, they've been

2282
02:21:30,440 --> 02:21:33,720
Speaker 1: driving by. I've seen them at least five or six times.

2283
02:21:33,760 --> 02:21:37,560
Speaker 1: Today people are waiting for something that they can latch onto,

2284
02:21:37,760 --> 02:21:42,360
Speaker 1: But so far, so good. With Columbus facing one hundred

2285
02:21:42,440 --> 02:21:45,840
Speaker 1: degree heat waves, what started as a warming station in

2286
02:21:45,920 --> 02:21:49,280
Speaker 1: winter now serves as a cooling station this summer for

2287
02:21:49,440 --> 02:21:53,520
Speaker 1: its few dozen residents, as gears shift and new seasonal

2288
02:21:53,600 --> 02:21:57,480
Speaker 1: materials are required. The camp has been exploring alternative methods

2289
02:21:57,520 --> 02:22:00,600
Speaker 1: of funding to sustain the level of resources and services

2290
02:22:00,840 --> 02:22:03,880
Speaker 1: they've been able to provide the past few months. We

2291
02:22:03,959 --> 02:22:07,440
Speaker 1: did launch a go fund me and we've had pretty

2292
02:22:07,440 --> 02:22:11,360
Speaker 1: good luks so far. We've raised seven thousand, five UM.

2293
02:22:12,640 --> 02:22:16,680
Speaker 1: This is just for operating funds um. There's a lot

2294
02:22:16,760 --> 02:22:18,600
Speaker 1: that we would like to do here. It's a lot

2295
02:22:18,680 --> 02:22:21,680
Speaker 1: we'd like to do with the land, but for now

2296
02:22:21,879 --> 02:22:26,240
Speaker 1: we just need We're just fundraising to keep going. The

2297
02:22:26,320 --> 02:22:29,879
Speaker 1: camp still serves around twenty five people, so resources end

2298
02:22:29,959 --> 02:22:33,560
Speaker 1: up getting distributed across a large collection of individuals. All

2299
02:22:33,640 --> 02:22:37,280
Speaker 1: the donations received have been used to provide necessities to survive,

2300
02:22:37,400 --> 02:22:41,800
Speaker 1: including but not limited to, shelters like tents, food, water,

2301
02:22:42,000 --> 02:22:47,760
Speaker 1: medical supplies, bedding, clothes, bus passes, medical services and prescriptions,

2302
02:22:48,240 --> 02:22:52,760
Speaker 1: hard production supplies, Funds for individuals immediate needs, and assistance

2303
02:22:52,800 --> 02:22:56,360
Speaker 1: to pay with residents phone bills. Sometimes funds are also

2304
02:22:56,480 --> 02:23:00,600
Speaker 1: used to compensate residents for extra labor put towards maintaining

2305
02:23:00,680 --> 02:23:03,640
Speaker 1: the camp, like cleaning up the campsite, cutting up firewood,

2306
02:23:03,879 --> 02:23:07,960
Speaker 1: and providing extra services like haircuts. The response has been

2307
02:23:08,040 --> 02:23:10,320
Speaker 1: really good. I think people understand what we're trying to

2308
02:23:10,440 --> 02:23:14,800
Speaker 1: do and are are being really receptive to it. UM.

2309
02:23:16,120 --> 02:23:18,800
Speaker 1: I can't say the same about the city though. We UH.

2310
02:23:19,360 --> 02:23:23,039
Speaker 1: We met with Councilwoman shale A Favor from the city

2311
02:23:23,080 --> 02:23:29,960
Speaker 1: on Monday and presented a proposal. We asked for eighty

2312
02:23:30,560 --> 02:23:35,960
Speaker 1: five dollars over the next six months to continue operation,

2313
02:23:36,560 --> 02:23:39,840
Speaker 1: to pay a small salary to the three volunteers that

2314
02:23:39,920 --> 02:23:45,320
Speaker 1: are here all the time, UM for healthcare, for a

2315
02:23:45,560 --> 02:23:48,480
Speaker 1: small stipend to give to each resident of the camp

2316
02:23:48,600 --> 02:23:55,400
Speaker 1: every every week, UM additional operating funds. Just we came

2317
02:23:55,440 --> 02:24:00,440
Speaker 1: to them with this ask and they didn't really seem

2318
02:24:00,520 --> 02:24:05,000
Speaker 1: to get it UM, so we're gonna keep trying. They

2319
02:24:05,400 --> 02:24:09,640
Speaker 1: they felt like they can't really support a tent city

2320
02:24:10,200 --> 02:24:13,160
Speaker 1: in their minds, like they couldn't give money to support

2321
02:24:14,120 --> 02:24:18,600
Speaker 1: people who were residing in tents because tents are inadequate shelter.

2322
02:24:19,920 --> 02:24:23,120
Speaker 1: But I mean I can test that not having a

2323
02:24:23,200 --> 02:24:27,119
Speaker 1: tent is also an adequate shelter. The City of Columbus

2324
02:24:28,040 --> 02:24:32,880
Speaker 1: relies almost completely on the Community Shelter Board to manage

2325
02:24:33,080 --> 02:24:39,119
Speaker 1: its problem with homelessness. Community Shelter Board has a revenue

2326
02:24:39,160 --> 02:24:42,879
Speaker 1: of around forty four million dollars a year. They pay

2327
02:24:42,959 --> 02:24:46,480
Speaker 1: their director half a million dollars just under UM and

2328
02:24:46,560 --> 02:24:52,160
Speaker 1: a few other executives received ample compensation. But their success

2329
02:24:52,360 --> 02:24:56,320
Speaker 1: rate for the entire county is label at you go

2330
02:24:56,440 --> 02:24:59,760
Speaker 1: through their data. They have managed to get pent of

2331
02:24:59,840 --> 02:25:03,520
Speaker 1: the people who come through their shelter into some sort

2332
02:25:03,560 --> 02:25:07,360
Speaker 1: of housing. For the zip code that we're serving at seven,

2333
02:25:08,000 --> 02:25:13,760
Speaker 1: which equates to eight people over the past year. So

2334
02:25:14,160 --> 02:25:17,960
Speaker 1: what they're doing is not working at all, and they

2335
02:25:18,040 --> 02:25:20,040
Speaker 1: know it, but they don't know what else to do.

2336
02:25:21,240 --> 02:25:23,960
Speaker 1: Whenever we talk to the city, someone tells us to

2337
02:25:24,040 --> 02:25:26,840
Speaker 1: talk to this one particular person. Her name has Emerald

2338
02:25:26,879 --> 02:25:30,440
Speaker 1: her nand as Para. She is the assistant director of

2339
02:25:30,520 --> 02:25:35,040
Speaker 1: Special Projects for the Department of Development. If you have

2340
02:25:35,240 --> 02:25:39,560
Speaker 1: a problem with a homeless camp in the city, she

2341
02:25:39,800 --> 02:25:41,880
Speaker 1: is the person that the city wants you to talk to,

2342
02:25:42,760 --> 02:25:46,600
Speaker 1: no matter what UM if if you're homeless, that's who

2343
02:25:46,959 --> 02:25:49,160
Speaker 1: that's who they want you to talk to. She's under

2344
02:25:49,240 --> 02:25:55,040
Speaker 1: the Department of Development. Her her main focus is economic development.

2345
02:25:55,800 --> 02:25:59,880
Speaker 1: She's just special projects, which means she helps clear the

2346
02:26:00,000 --> 02:26:05,480
Speaker 1: way by getting camps out of the way for development projects.

2347
02:26:06,600 --> 02:26:10,440
Speaker 1: That's that's her role, and she is the city's liaison.

2348
02:26:11,240 --> 02:26:12,920
Speaker 1: No matter who we talked to, she's the one that

2349
02:26:13,000 --> 02:26:17,119
Speaker 1: we keep coming back to. So I think it's pretty

2350
02:26:17,240 --> 02:26:23,879
Speaker 1: um cynical and upsetting that this isn't under the purview

2351
02:26:24,040 --> 02:26:27,400
Speaker 1: of the Department of Health, you know, and any any

2352
02:26:27,440 --> 02:26:29,400
Speaker 1: other department would be a little bit better than the

2353
02:26:29,400 --> 02:26:33,040
Speaker 1: Department of Development to show so much we care. We're

2354
02:26:33,080 --> 02:26:36,360
Speaker 1: planning to go back to the city, uh, regardless of

2355
02:26:36,440 --> 02:26:39,680
Speaker 1: what they say about this initial proposal, because there's a

2356
02:26:39,720 --> 02:26:42,480
Speaker 1: lot that we'd like to build here and and we

2357
02:26:42,600 --> 02:26:46,040
Speaker 1: think they'd be amenable if they understood. We're drafting a

2358
02:26:46,160 --> 02:26:50,960
Speaker 1: second round proposal taking inspiration from Dignity Village in Portland.

2359
02:26:51,800 --> 02:26:55,960
Speaker 1: It's an autonomous village of fun housed people that's existed

2360
02:26:56,040 --> 02:26:59,560
Speaker 1: since two thousand and I think there's a lot of

2361
02:27:00,080 --> 02:27:03,880
Speaker 1: we can learn from them for modeling this in a

2362
02:27:03,920 --> 02:27:07,480
Speaker 1: way that the city might better understand. We believe that

2363
02:27:07,560 --> 02:27:10,920
Speaker 1: what we're doing here is transitional housing, and the people

2364
02:27:11,000 --> 02:27:14,160
Speaker 1: who are here want to be involved in building that

2365
02:27:14,360 --> 02:27:18,200
Speaker 1: transitional housing for themselves and then for the people to

2366
02:27:18,280 --> 02:27:21,440
Speaker 1: come after. So that's that's what we're hoping to get

2367
02:27:21,480 --> 02:27:24,400
Speaker 1: the city to sign off on. Whom we met with.

2368
02:27:25,640 --> 02:27:28,320
Speaker 1: We met with the councilwoman. One of the things that

2369
02:27:28,480 --> 02:27:32,040
Speaker 1: she said was they at the city they don't have

2370
02:27:32,120 --> 02:27:37,760
Speaker 1: a model for serving the population that we're serving. Um,

2371
02:27:38,680 --> 02:27:43,200
Speaker 1: they don't. They don't know how to handle people who

2372
02:27:43,320 --> 02:27:45,760
Speaker 1: don't want to move inside, who don't want to move

2373
02:27:45,800 --> 02:27:49,720
Speaker 1: into the shelter system for whatever reason, and so all

2374
02:27:49,800 --> 02:27:55,160
Speaker 1: they can really do is move them around. Um, we're

2375
02:27:55,200 --> 02:27:57,080
Speaker 1: trying to tell them that we do have a model

2376
02:27:58,000 --> 02:28:00,560
Speaker 1: and we think we think that we can help the

2377
02:28:00,640 --> 02:28:04,000
Speaker 1: city as long as they stay pretty hands off and

2378
02:28:04,600 --> 02:28:09,160
Speaker 1: give us money for it. So fingers crossed. I'm not

2379
02:28:09,200 --> 02:28:12,959
Speaker 1: going to hold my breath, but fingers crossed. The city

2380
02:28:12,959 --> 02:28:16,280
Speaker 1: of Columbus has been much more openly hostile to some

2381
02:28:16,440 --> 02:28:20,440
Speaker 1: other encampments providing cooling and shelter in parts of the city.

2382
02:28:21,080 --> 02:28:24,880
Speaker 1: We're not the only on house encampment in Columbus. Um.

2383
02:28:25,000 --> 02:28:28,280
Speaker 1: There there are a lot more, and there's one that

2384
02:28:29,160 --> 02:28:32,240
Speaker 1: is at it's called Here Park on the south side.

2385
02:28:32,800 --> 02:28:36,000
Speaker 1: We have a lot of friends there. UM. Our organization

2386
02:28:36,160 --> 02:28:40,120
Speaker 1: works with their organization. UH. They were served a fourteen

2387
02:28:40,200 --> 02:28:44,400
Speaker 1: day eviction notice UM on the first and they have

2388
02:28:44,520 --> 02:28:48,960
Speaker 1: until to move out. UM. So we're doing whatever we

2389
02:28:49,040 --> 02:28:53,680
Speaker 1: can to support them. But UM, it very much feels

2390
02:28:53,840 --> 02:28:58,400
Speaker 1: like we're being treated like the good camp and they're

2391
02:28:58,440 --> 02:29:01,520
Speaker 1: the bad camp right now. So we're trying our best

2392
02:29:01,680 --> 02:29:05,480
Speaker 1: to make sure that the city knows that we're with them.

2393
02:29:06,080 --> 02:29:09,880
Speaker 1: You know, I I'm whatever they think about us. We

2394
02:29:10,879 --> 02:29:13,720
Speaker 1: we support those people no matter what, and we'll see

2395
02:29:13,720 --> 02:29:16,680
Speaker 1: whatever we can to help. UM. We're trying to give

2396
02:29:16,720 --> 02:29:19,440
Speaker 1: them advice about the things that have worked for us

2397
02:29:19,600 --> 02:29:24,600
Speaker 1: to keep the city away and hopefully if they do

2398
02:29:24,800 --> 02:29:26,920
Speaker 1: have to move on the fourteenth, they'll be able to

2399
02:29:26,959 --> 02:29:28,920
Speaker 1: set up somewhere over the city or give them a break.

2400
02:29:29,760 --> 02:29:32,640
Speaker 1: Here is some audio of a press conference given at

2401
02:29:32,800 --> 02:29:36,560
Speaker 1: the Here Park camp just last week. The city is

2402
02:29:36,640 --> 02:29:38,880
Speaker 1: not out here giving out water. The city is not

2403
02:29:39,040 --> 02:29:43,440
Speaker 1: out here making sure that UH people don't get heat

2404
02:29:43,480 --> 02:29:46,680
Speaker 1: exhaustion or heat stroke. Right, They're nowhere to be found.

2405
02:29:47,240 --> 02:29:49,240
Speaker 1: So we are here to remind them they have a

2406
02:29:49,360 --> 02:29:53,840
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty five million dollars in American Rescue Plan funds.

2407
02:29:54,320 --> 02:29:57,240
Speaker 1: Where is this money going? Why do we not have housing?

2408
02:29:57,640 --> 02:30:00,480
Speaker 1: This weather is just a little taste for many of

2409
02:30:00,600 --> 02:30:03,800
Speaker 1: us of the conditions that our unhoused neighbors out here

2410
02:30:04,480 --> 02:30:08,120
Speaker 1: can look forward to enduring for the entire summer. The

2411
02:30:08,240 --> 02:30:12,120
Speaker 1: City of Columbus was planning on evicting our people today

2412
02:30:12,360 --> 02:30:17,680
Speaker 1: June fourteenth. They delayed that eviction. It is a human right,

2413
02:30:17,920 --> 02:30:21,680
Speaker 1: so we are here to assert our human rights. Two housing.

2414
02:30:22,879 --> 02:30:24,760
Speaker 1: They're hoping that we're going to get hot and tired

2415
02:30:25,360 --> 02:30:31,040
Speaker 1: and we're out. Are we gonna let up? The Here

2416
02:30:31,120 --> 02:30:34,080
Speaker 1: Park Camp eviction was pushed back to June twenty one

2417
02:30:34,360 --> 02:30:37,480
Speaker 1: due to a massive heat wave, and by June one,

2418
02:30:37,720 --> 02:30:40,440
Speaker 1: the temperature was still in the upper nineties, but the

2419
02:30:40,560 --> 02:30:43,600
Speaker 1: city followed through on their threat and swept the camp.

2420
02:30:44,200 --> 02:30:48,160
Speaker 1: At least twenty Columbus police cruisers, city attorneys, people from

2421
02:30:48,200 --> 02:30:51,360
Speaker 1: the Department of Development, and other city employees were on

2422
02:30:51,560 --> 02:30:56,359
Speaker 1: site for the eviction. Bulldozers and massive machinery crushed people's

2423
02:30:56,400 --> 02:31:00,600
Speaker 1: tents and personal belongings. Some folks, forcibly displaced have lived

2424
02:31:00,680 --> 02:31:04,920
Speaker 1: in the here Park for nearly a decade. For wrapping

2425
02:31:05,000 --> 02:31:07,400
Speaker 1: up this episode, I had just one more question for

2426
02:31:07,560 --> 02:31:11,720
Speaker 1: Elizabeth for people who would be interested in trying to

2427
02:31:11,920 --> 02:31:15,200
Speaker 1: create similar projects or hopeful smilar similar projects in their area,

2428
02:31:16,600 --> 02:31:18,240
Speaker 1: how will it would be some advice to give to

2429
02:31:18,320 --> 02:31:21,520
Speaker 1: people who who are want to try something similar. What's

2430
02:31:21,560 --> 02:31:23,440
Speaker 1: the kind of stuff that you've learned the past few

2431
02:31:23,480 --> 02:31:28,280
Speaker 1: months that you were kind of surprised by UM and

2432
02:31:28,520 --> 02:31:30,480
Speaker 1: and you know, if if you could do anything different,

2433
02:31:30,560 --> 02:31:32,600
Speaker 1: what's what's like what's the kind of stuff that you

2434
02:31:32,600 --> 02:31:35,880
Speaker 1: would uh that you would approach UM to make the

2435
02:31:35,959 --> 02:31:40,120
Speaker 1: processes like smoother or slightly more improved. Well, I would

2436
02:31:40,120 --> 02:31:43,760
Speaker 1: have looked for more funders first. Um. The one of

2437
02:31:43,800 --> 02:31:47,680
Speaker 1: the most painful parts for me has, like just personally

2438
02:31:47,800 --> 02:31:51,760
Speaker 1: has been holding the purse UM, being the person that

2439
02:31:51,920 --> 02:31:55,680
Speaker 1: everyone knows to ask for for cash if they needed

2440
02:31:55,800 --> 02:32:01,280
Speaker 1: for something UM It. It is a it is a

2441
02:32:01,360 --> 02:32:06,720
Speaker 1: real strain on compassion sometimes, you know, on compassion fatigue

2442
02:32:08,000 --> 02:32:11,240
Speaker 1: is real, and it can be really hard day and

2443
02:32:11,480 --> 02:32:14,560
Speaker 1: day out having to field requests from people who you

2444
02:32:14,680 --> 02:32:20,600
Speaker 1: know need these resources, but you can't always give everything.

2445
02:32:20,920 --> 02:32:23,040
Speaker 1: It's it's hard to say no. Learning to say no

2446
02:32:23,440 --> 02:32:30,520
Speaker 1: has um has helped, but ah, diversifying our funding sources

2447
02:32:30,840 --> 02:32:36,520
Speaker 1: is also helping a lot. Um. I've learned that I

2448
02:32:36,640 --> 02:32:40,640
Speaker 1: can't do at all and that I need to take breaks,

2449
02:32:41,160 --> 02:32:47,040
Speaker 1: and that being here is is what I want to do.

2450
02:32:47,680 --> 02:32:51,040
Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean I need to always always do it.

2451
02:32:51,520 --> 02:32:57,480
Speaker 1: Sometimes you've got to step away. UM. I I wish

2452
02:32:57,560 --> 02:33:02,320
Speaker 1: that I had spent a little more time with my family, um,

2453
02:33:03,320 --> 02:33:07,560
Speaker 1: rather than you know, throwing myself completely into this U.

2454
02:33:08,600 --> 02:33:11,960
Speaker 1: But two months ago my fiance, my ex fiance, asked

2455
02:33:12,000 --> 02:33:14,680
Speaker 1: me to leave. So I have been living at the

2456
02:33:14,760 --> 02:33:19,040
Speaker 1: camp too. UM. So I it's it's been a pretty

2457
02:33:19,080 --> 02:33:23,560
Speaker 1: stark jump to go from having a big house and

2458
02:33:24,360 --> 02:33:28,039
Speaker 1: some retirement funds to living in a tent and having none.

2459
02:33:28,959 --> 02:33:31,720
Speaker 1: But I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't change it, and

2460
02:33:32,040 --> 02:33:36,240
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep doing it. It's because I can,

2461
02:33:36,920 --> 02:33:40,119
Speaker 1: because I could, And that's that's really what I want

2462
02:33:40,160 --> 02:33:42,199
Speaker 1: people to see is that if they can do something,

2463
02:33:42,440 --> 02:33:48,160
Speaker 1: they should. Um. It's the best job I've ever had. Um.

2464
02:33:49,280 --> 02:33:53,120
Speaker 1: You know, nothing is more rewarding than going to work

2465
02:33:53,200 --> 02:33:56,480
Speaker 1: and hanging out with your friends all day, like helping

2466
02:33:56,560 --> 02:34:03,520
Speaker 1: them get jobs and find apartments and meet friends like,

2467
02:34:04,760 --> 02:34:07,800
Speaker 1: all right, there's so many wonderful people here, and like

2468
02:34:08,280 --> 02:34:10,879
Speaker 1: me and the other volunteers, we love all of them

2469
02:34:11,200 --> 02:34:13,560
Speaker 1: and you want nothing more than to see them succeed.

2470
02:34:14,120 --> 02:34:17,520
Speaker 1: So yeah, I just I just advised people to do

2471
02:34:17,600 --> 02:34:19,840
Speaker 1: what they can, to ask for what they need and

2472
02:34:20,760 --> 02:34:23,959
Speaker 1: try and provide it. Anyone who wants to know more

2473
02:34:24,080 --> 02:34:26,520
Speaker 1: about the First Collective and what they're doing, you can

2474
02:34:26,600 --> 02:34:30,879
Speaker 1: go to First hyphen Collective dot org. You can find

2475
02:34:30,959 --> 02:34:35,440
Speaker 1: links on Elizabeth's Twitter account at an Optimist. And even

2476
02:34:35,520 --> 02:34:39,520
Speaker 1: if you disagree with some of the organizational or structural choices,

2477
02:34:40,080 --> 02:34:42,600
Speaker 1: I hope you at least learned something or got something

2478
02:34:42,680 --> 02:34:46,400
Speaker 1: productive out of this example of people putting in effort

2479
02:34:46,680 --> 02:34:49,880
Speaker 1: to fill in the gaps in their local community that

2480
02:34:50,080 --> 02:34:56,039
Speaker 1: isn't for us today. See you on the other side. Hey,

2481
02:34:56,200 --> 02:34:59,280
Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

2482
02:34:59,320 --> 02:35:01,880
Speaker 1: now until we the death of the universe. It could

2483
02:35:01,920 --> 02:35:04,240
Speaker 1: happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. For

2484
02:35:04,360 --> 02:35:07,080
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

2485
02:35:07,160 --> 02:35:09,080
Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the

2486
02:35:09,160 --> 02:35:11,840
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

2487
02:35:11,879 --> 02:35:14,560
Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for it could happen here.

2488
02:35:14,640 --> 02:35:18,039
Speaker 1: Updated monthly at cool Zone media dot com slash Sources,

2489
02:35:18,320 --> 02:35:19,080
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.