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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noel.

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Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Paul Mission Control Decant. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 3: don't want you to know. Today's episode is about an

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Speaker 3: ongoing government conspiracy, a series of conspiracies in fact, taking

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Speaker 3: place all around the United States and probably a few

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Speaker 3: other countries as well. It's true, folks, as as we

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Speaker 3: are recording today, the US government is literally taking people's stuff.

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Speaker 3: That's right. This is a government episode, but no worries.

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Speaker 3: It's not a political episode. We are exploring the controversial

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Speaker 3: and quite corrupt phenomenon of things like eminent domain and

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Speaker 3: civil asset forfeiture. These are as we will find rife

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Speaker 3: with corruption and ripe for conspiracy. And if you haven't

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Speaker 3: heard about this before, you need to know about it

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Speaker 3: right now. First things first, here are the facts. What

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Speaker 3: are property rights? What are the rules about stuff? Oh, man,

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Speaker 3: I guess it depends. But as far as the Constitution

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Speaker 3: is concerned, the founding fathers did intend for a very

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Speaker 3: cardinal right outlined by that sacred document to be concerning

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Speaker 3: owning property. You know, we came from a culture of

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Speaker 3: settlers and colonization and all of that stuff, and so

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Speaker 3: owning property as an American, as apple pie a very

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Speaker 3: important part of that old American dream.

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Speaker 2: Because the king was like, Hey, this is my land

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Speaker 2: and my stuff, and you may use of it, but

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Speaker 2: it is mine, you.

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Speaker 4: Vassal, you, you serve whichever. Well, those are different things,

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Speaker 4: but I like the sound of both of them.

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Speaker 3: I mean, they're pretty They're pretty similar in that the

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Speaker 3: king can do what they want with those folks, and

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Speaker 3: this concept. I'm glad we're starting with this. It's pretty

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Speaker 3: important because the idea that your stuff is yours seems

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Speaker 3: so basic, right. We have to realize that there are

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Speaker 3: countries right now, like China, Laos and Vietnam that do

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Speaker 3: not allow personal ownership of property in some very important ways.

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Speaker 3: But in the US generally, the idea that your stuff

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Speaker 3: is yours means you can use it, you can sell it,

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Speaker 3: you can buy stuff, et cetera. Whatever you wish, as

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Speaker 3: long as you don't violate the law in doing so.

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Speaker 4: In theory, well, and not to mention, there's a whole

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Speaker 4: industry around said ownership, whether it be title examinations or

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Speaker 4: real estate lawyers and you know, owning people that have

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Speaker 4: to outline where a plot of land ends and another begins.

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Speaker 4: I mean, all that stuff is pretty esoteric and in

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Speaker 4: the weeds, not even remotely easy to understand for the layman.

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Speaker 2: But don't have started on homeowners associations.

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Speaker 3: Line, oh man. The smaller amount of power people have,

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Speaker 3: the more likely they are to abuse it. Weirdly enough,

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Speaker 3: case in point ahoys. I mean, this might sound pretty simple,

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Speaker 3: and I think most people can agree that property rights

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Speaker 3: are a heck of a lot better than living in

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Speaker 3: a country where the state or a dictator, or to

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Speaker 3: the earlier example, a monarch actually owns everything. Interesting twist,

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Speaker 3: the Constitution never bothers to actually define property, and so

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Speaker 3: the concept of property rights in these unit United States

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Speaker 3: became cartoonishly controversial pretty much right after it happened. That's

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Speaker 3: been too generous. As it happened, it was already messy,

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Speaker 3: because let us not forget the founding colonial forces did

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Speaker 3: consider human beings to be a form of property.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that really throws a wrench on the whole thing,

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Speaker 4: doesn't it, or at least require some pretty clever workarounds.

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Speaker 4: So this, of course, is what led to the US

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Speaker 4: Civil War and the you know, the horrific history of

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Speaker 4: the slave trade. It has continuations that kind of echo

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Speaker 4: in the modern day even you know, whether it be

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Speaker 4: through the prison system or you know, sex slavery, or

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Speaker 4: you know, there's any number of remnants of this kind

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Speaker 4: of thinking that is still around.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's weird because when we first started talking

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Speaker 3: about this, probably years and years ago, we one of

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Speaker 3: the things that you wouldn't think would be difficult to

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Speaker 3: define is property. Right, it's a house, sure, it's a car,

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Speaker 3: it's your vintage you know, Gi Joe Action figure or whatever.

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Speaker 3: It's tangible stuff that you own. But what about ideas

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Speaker 3: in the US and in the developed world in general,

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Speaker 3: ideas are property too? Intellectual property and then patents, copyrights, trademarks,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. There's this legendary legal often named William Blackstone,

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Speaker 3: who had the best core definition of property. He called

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Speaker 3: it the right to exclude I own this house, I

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Speaker 3: do not want you here, get out of my car,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. I came up with this idea, you can't

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Speaker 3: use my mental labor without my consent and profit from

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Speaker 3: it or claim or imply that you somehow created it,

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Speaker 3: and on and on and on.

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Speaker 2: It just makes you think about the indigenous populations that

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Speaker 2: would hear anyone talk about any of that stuff to

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Speaker 2: be like, wait, you own the waterfall? Really?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, you own the land?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 3: Right exactly? I mean, like, that's a great point. What

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Speaker 3: we're saying is this becomes a messy bowl of spaghetti

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Speaker 3: so very quickly. The majority of the people in the

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Speaker 3: world today don't have their you know, patent lawyer on

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Speaker 3: speed dial or whatever. But the concept of property is

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Speaker 3: only going to become more and more controversial. Things like

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Speaker 3: chat GPT, you know, the language models that scrape up

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Speaker 3: all sorts of things. They're not paying the folks whose

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Speaker 3: work they take to create that dialogue. And then there's

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Speaker 3: the discussion around pharmaceutical drugs. Should hundreds of thousands of

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Speaker 3: people die because private pharmaceutical company needs to make good

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Speaker 3: on its profits?

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Speaker 4: And Matt made a really good point when we were

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Speaker 4: talking about AI and machine learning recently where it's like

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Speaker 4: there could be legislation that says you can't use this,

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Speaker 4: you know, intellectual property that's owned by someone to train

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Speaker 4: chat GBT. But it's also like, yeah, if you can

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Speaker 4: prove that that's what we did, you know. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's really really hard to get to the bottom of

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Speaker 4: these kinds of processes where ideas are concerned. Obviously, things

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Speaker 4: like songs. Stealing songs quote unquote very complicated because there's

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Speaker 4: not an infinite amount of songs or melodies. You know,

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Speaker 4: I think what's his name. I would never thought I

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Speaker 4: would be in this position to support Ed Shearon, but

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Speaker 4: he recently won two lawsuits in a row that were

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Speaker 4: against him for claiming that he was, you know, copying songs.

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Speaker 3: So even even though he said no, remember he promised

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Speaker 3: everyone he would quit making music if the court decision

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Speaker 3: went against his wishes. And despite that, you know that

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Speaker 3: reward dangling out there, the courts did the right thing.

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Speaker 2: You guys, why are we dunking on Ed Sharon because

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Speaker 2: it's flood that guy.

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Speaker 3: He's obviously a nice guy.

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Speaker 4: He's ice cream man. It's fine.

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Speaker 3: I think he's got a nice voice, and I think

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Speaker 3: if you were on the show. He would laugh along

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Speaker 3: with us.

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Speaker 4: He's offensively inoffensive. That's his whole thing.

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Speaker 2: That's Ed.

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Speaker 3: So, so you're saying the argument is that for synaestates

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Speaker 3: who listen to music, Ed Sheeran sounds like beige. Ah. Interesting,

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Speaker 3: Well that's a that's a weird analogy. But Ed, if

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Speaker 3: you're listening, Yeah, obviously we got your back.

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Speaker 4: Man.

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Speaker 3: It's tough to be creative in a capitalistic society and

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Speaker 3: some property rights big deal. Politicians love to talk about

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Speaker 3: this all the time, and when you hear it, regardless

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Speaker 3: of how you identify personally, you need to be aware

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Speaker 3: that those politicians are often bringing up this concept with

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Speaker 3: ulterior motives.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, they politicians.

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Speaker 3: They know it can be a powerful trigger for possible voters,

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Speaker 3: especially if those voters already have a lot of property.

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Speaker 3: However you define it, m Yeah, so well, they're kind

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Speaker 3: of pandering the same as it ever was. The strangest

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Speaker 3: part of all of this, the part no one really

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Speaker 3: wants to talk about, is that the first law of humanity,

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Speaker 3: the one that predates written in history, has always been this,

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Speaker 3: when the rubber hits the road, the mighty will take

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Speaker 3: what they wish and in the United States, believe it

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Speaker 3: or not, that includes yours. Two.

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Speaker 4: You know, at least we don't have roving hordes of

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Speaker 4: like strong army militias just taking things by force all

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Speaker 4: the time. I mean, of course, there are burglaries and

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Speaker 4: there is crime, but in general, the only way to

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Speaker 4: like take what is someone else's is theoretically through legal means.

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Speaker 4: That does not mean, however, that it's not the strongest

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Speaker 4: legally speaking, monetarily speaking, that are still able to, you know,

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Speaker 4: essentially accomplish the same thing. Maybe not with like clubs

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Speaker 4: and rocks and.

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Speaker 2: Stuff, but yeah, but with guns and badges.

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Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy. It's true, and it's so

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Speaker 3: well established that some folks in the audience may feel

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Speaker 3: we are being alarmist by calling these concepts conspiracies, although

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Speaker 3: they very much can be. Let's look at two broad

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Speaker 3: examples of how the government can take your stuff with

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Speaker 3: no consequences, and then, you know, if we have time,

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Speaker 3: a bonus shout out to a particularly crazy hobby horse

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Speaker 3: at the end. First things, first, you've heard of it,

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Speaker 3: you know it, or it may have affected you imminent domain.

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Speaker 3: I wish it was just a kick ass name for

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Speaker 3: some cool video game DLC Skyrit, imminent domain.

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Speaker 2: A home defender for imminent domain.

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Speaker 4: Or the latest album from a superstar rapper eminend.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, eminent eminem domain. That's a missed opportunity.

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Speaker 3: He'll probably have it come out. Yeah, that's his sequel

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Speaker 3: to Encore. So a sequel to Encore is a big

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Speaker 3: gratuitous just in spirit.

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Speaker 4: But I think he has gotten the big gratuitous in

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Speaker 4: this old day. Let's just say go, why are we

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Speaker 4: dugging on pop stars in this episode? This is not

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Speaker 4: what this episode is for. But yes, eminent domain. It

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Speaker 4: sounds boring, but it is. It's another one of these

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Speaker 4: loopholes that can be wielded like a cudgel, you know,

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Speaker 4: like a like a virtual rock tied to a stick.

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Speaker 3: And it's in the constitution. It's a big deal. Imminent domain,

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Speaker 3: which I think is an ominous name. It means a government,

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Speaker 3: any government, has the right to acquire private property for

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Speaker 3: the public good. We are going to buy up your

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Speaker 3: land because we are making a national park. We are

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Speaker 3: expanding the road so that the people of the community

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Speaker 3: can have an easier time in traffic.

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Speaker 2: And we will give you fair market value.

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Speaker 4: I gotta say, but I think you're right. I think

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Speaker 4: I was unfairly maligning eminent domain. When you think about it,

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Speaker 4: the words put together does have sort of an ominous quality.

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Speaker 3: I mean, like, let's think of literal on the street examples. Right,

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Speaker 3: local road gets widened. Consider that example. Here in our

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Speaker 3: fair metropolis of Atlanta, there is eternal construction, right, and

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Speaker 3: there's a there is a top tier swat team of

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Speaker 3: people who drive around and put metal plates on the road.

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Speaker 3: Your tax dollars at work.

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Speaker 4: Left those metal plates and it never seems to go

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Speaker 4: any further than that.

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Speaker 3: Now they're high value operators, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: They put the plates down, taking the plates to someone

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Speaker 3: else's department. So okay, there's a community. You can picture

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Speaker 3: one in your town probably and they have been growing

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Speaker 3: for some time. You got those old two lane roads,

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Speaker 3: you know where the where the tar is dripped over

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Speaker 3: like letters in Arabic, and there's different potholes and all

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Speaker 3: kinds of little idiosyncrasies. Traffic sucks because a lot of

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Speaker 3: people have moved into town. Local government takes action. They say,

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Speaker 3: we're going to make this road three lanes, or we're

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Speaker 3: gonna make it four lanes. This is great for everybody

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Speaker 3: on the road, it's not great for the homeowners who

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Speaker 3: live along there. And often if these are rural environments

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Speaker 3: transforming into suburbs, we're talking about large swaths of land,

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Speaker 3: acres and acres, you know, farmland, unused property, things like that.

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Speaker 3: The space for those new lanes has to come from somewhere,

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Speaker 3: and that somewhere is going to be several feet into

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Speaker 3: the front yards or the boundaries of the private land

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Speaker 3: in question. It's for the greater good, though, and it's

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Speaker 3: very very rare for the average person to fight back. Matt,

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Speaker 3: you said something very precient here, the Fifth Amendment, which

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Speaker 3: does allow for imminent domain. Explicitly, it also requires Uncle

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Speaker 3: Sam to pay people for taking their stuff.

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Speaker 2: And it reads, quote, nor shall private property be taken

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Speaker 2: for public use without just compensation unquote just compensation, which

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Speaker 2: is love that negotiable, which often, as in the example

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Speaker 2: that we've looked at for today's episode, it is quote

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Speaker 2: fair market value, something I mentioned earlier, which is a

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Speaker 2: bit odd because that's something that fluctuates, and you can

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Speaker 2: have you know, a specialist look at something and give

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Speaker 2: you one fair market value price. To have another specialist

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Speaker 2: look at it and give you a completely different price.

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Speaker 4: Well, it also doesn't take into account sentimental value or

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Speaker 4: you know, psychological attachment, like what if it's your family

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Speaker 4: home or connected to a loved one who's passed or

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Speaker 4: something like that. You can't even calculate that or your restaurant.

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Speaker 3: And just the quote unquote just compensation doesn't give you

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Speaker 3: the means to open a new restaurant. There are multiple

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Speaker 3: tales of this. We're going to save you time. We

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Speaker 3: might give you a few examples, but you don't need

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Speaker 3: to hear us reiterate all of them.

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Speaker 4: It would it would.

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Speaker 3: Literally be impossible. You will have no shortage of examples

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Speaker 3: in your own home state if you live in the US.

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Speaker 3: I also want to shout out the Constitution for the

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Speaker 3: awesome wordplay and pun games. Just compensation does that mean

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Speaker 3: fair compensation or does that mean we just have to

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Speaker 3: pay you some shit? That's right up there with the

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Speaker 3: right to bear arms? You know what I mean?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, just a little compensation.

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Speaker 3: Or is it or you know, are we talking about

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Speaker 3: slinging guns or does everybody get a grizzly forearm? You know,

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Speaker 3: it's anyway. They were cooking live, they were working with

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Speaker 3: what they had. The spoiler is, as you can tell

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Speaker 3: folks that Matt and Noel and I are pointing out,

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Speaker 3: a vast, vast majority of people do not feel they

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Speaker 3: have been compensated fairly when they find themselves subject to

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Speaker 3: emminent domain. There are a lot of credible allegations and

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Speaker 3: proven cases where local politicians were corrupt and they made

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Speaker 3: bank abusing imminent domain. Back to our road construction idea,

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Speaker 3: maybe they get a kickback from the construction company because

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Speaker 3: that uncle is someone's cousin in law who owns the place,

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Speaker 3: you know, who owns the private entity. It's very difficult

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Speaker 3: for the average person to fight this in court. The

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Speaker 3: best way to say it is, they have to pay you,

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Speaker 3: but you have to sell. And this is used thousands

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Speaker 3: of times all across the US for way more than

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Speaker 3: the quote unquote public good another slippery term. You can

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Speaker 3: check out a lot of cases where lawmakers use eminent

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Speaker 3: domain not to make a public park, not to make

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Speaker 3: a public good, but to transfer ownership from one private

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Speaker 3: entity to another private entity. Like we're we're gonna we

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Speaker 3: know that you have lived in this neighborhood for generations,

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Speaker 3: We're gonna pay you fair market price, in our opinion,

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Speaker 3: non negotiable, and we're going to sell this land. We're

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Speaker 3: gonna sell your community to a private developer and they're

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Speaker 3: going to make another one of those live laugh, Love

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Speaker 3: mixed use things condos, Baby or in a couple of cases,

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Speaker 3: car dealerships, like the government took over. I mean, that's

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Speaker 3: one of the cases that's been in multiple reports.

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Speaker 2: I think, well, let's just go over that really quickly.

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Speaker 2: It was nineteen ninety nine and Chrysler had this facility.

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Speaker 2: It was a manufacturing facility in Toledo, Ohio, and they

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Speaker 2: wanted to expand, right or they had to move out

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Speaker 2: of Toledo, Ohio. And so Toledo, Ohio, as an government entity,

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Speaker 2: was like, well, we got to do everything, pull out all

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Speaker 2: the stops to make sure we protect the jobs that

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Speaker 2: are represented by this Chrysler manufacturer. Right, that's a lot

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Speaker 2: of jobs. You're talking thousands of jobs for this tiny

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Speaker 2: little town. So the city literally decided, well, we're gonna

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Speaker 2: buy these eighty three homes, take up all that land,

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Speaker 2: and just give it to Chrysler so that they'll stay

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Speaker 2: because they're threatening to leave. That's what they did.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the idea is you can justify this by saying

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Speaker 3: it is a neighborhood and provement where it's creating a

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Speaker 3: higher tax base. And that's the art. That's like the park,

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Speaker 3: the cognitive Parker, making it count as the greater good.

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Speaker 3: I suggest we take a pause here for word from

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Speaker 3: our sponsors, and then we're going to hear from the

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Speaker 3: nine people in charge of this country's opinions and what

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Speaker 3: they think about emminent domain. We're back. It's time for

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Speaker 3: the ring grace. That's right, non US residents. Our country

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Speaker 3: is legislatively ruled by nine non elected people who are

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Speaker 3: in office for life or until they well shout, and

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Speaker 3: collectively they are called the Supreme Court. They've made a

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Speaker 3: lot of really good decisions. They've made a lot of

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Speaker 3: really controversial decisions. They get to make the final call

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Speaker 3: into thousand and five, the Supremes. I like calling him that.

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Speaker 3: I love It reminds me of Diana Ross. Right, they sang,

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Speaker 3: they sing real good. It would be great if they

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Speaker 3: delivered their opinions and musical form, but I never.

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Speaker 4: Know what happens in those backgrounds.

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Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah. The media is very very buttoned up

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Speaker 3: around that. So they said in two thousand and five

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Speaker 3: in a case called Kilo v. City of New London

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Speaker 3: that quote economic benefits are a permissible form of public

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Speaker 3: use that justifies the government in seizing property from private citizens.

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Speaker 3: Not all of the supremes were on board. I think

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Speaker 3: one of the coolest ones is this gets highlighted as

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Speaker 3: well in a couple of videos I think we all watch.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 3: Sandra Day O'Connor, the legendary Supreme Court justice, went hard

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Speaker 3: in the paint with a dissent. She wrote a dissenting

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Speaker 3: opinion on this, and it seems increasingly worrying and prescient.

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Speaker 2: Here's the quote. Under the banner of economic development, all

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Speaker 2: private property is now vulnerable to being taken and transferred

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Speaker 2: to another private owner, so long as it might be upgraded.

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Speaker 2: Nothing is to prevent the state from replacing any Motel

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Speaker 2: six with a Ritz Carlton, any home with a shopping mall,

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Speaker 2: or any farm with a factory, which is true. We've

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Speaker 2: seen cases like this where a small town wanted to

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Speaker 2: upgrade their mall right for economic benefit, so they just

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Speaker 2: bought out like one hundred and twenty seven homes for

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Speaker 2: like super low amounts. Because again, I think in these

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Speaker 2: small towns. Often people have lived there for so long

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Speaker 2: they pay off their entire home and don't have a

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Speaker 2: house payment anymore. And now you're gonna get You're gonna

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Speaker 2: give them the equivalent of a down payment for one

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Speaker 2: of these new expensive homes. Doesn't matter how fancy it is.

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Speaker 2: Whatever they paid for generations ago is not going to

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Speaker 2: be the same of what they have to pay for

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Speaker 2: for a new house now.

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Speaker 3: And many of these homes are already are these households

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Speaker 3: already only have equity in that house, right, so now

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Speaker 3: they are getting that equity erase. There is a valid

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Speaker 3: argument that not everyone agrees with that would posit this

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Speaker 3: is an equivalent of robbery or theft, you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean, at least partially still believe it or not, folks,

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Speaker 3: that is not the most egregious example of the government

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Speaker 3: taking your stuff whenever it wants. It's time to go

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Speaker 3: for the big guns. Guys. Let's say you are not

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Speaker 3: worried about eminent domain. You say, well, I don't live

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Speaker 3: near a road that's going to open. We already have

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Speaker 3: them all across town. Me and my two point five acres.

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Speaker 3: We're totally fine. That's why we live in the boonies.

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Speaker 3: I only go to town when I'm driving to the

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Speaker 3: airport or when I'm taking a trip on a train,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean. I'm a self sufficient dude,

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Speaker 3: or do debt. This is where we get to civil

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Speaker 3: asset forfeiture.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this is a rough one and one you're going

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Speaker 4: to hear more about in depth when our lava for

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Speaker 4: a good panel hits the old feed, which should be

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Speaker 4: not too far from now. But it is a concept

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Speaker 4: that we talk about at length and we're gonna get

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Speaker 4: into it now. Civil asset forfeiture the idea that if

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Speaker 4: assets that you possess are even suspected to be connected

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Speaker 4: that's a rhyme two illicit activities, that law enforcement has

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Speaker 4: the right to take those from you, and then the

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Speaker 4: burden is on you to do whatever it takes to

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Speaker 4: prove that you have those assets legitimately and then to

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Speaker 4: get them back, which oftentimes, again it's like there's a

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Speaker 4: power the imbalance there, and chances are you're probably not

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Speaker 4: going to get your back.

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Speaker 2: Just want to make the connection to eminent domain there,

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Speaker 2: because it is the same deal legally. As soon as

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Speaker 2: law enforcement decides your stuff is suspected, it's on you

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Speaker 2: same with eminent domain. As soon as some board or

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Speaker 2: what do they call those things, guys, redevelopment what funds?

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Speaker 2: As soon as one of them decides that your place

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Speaker 2: needs to be eminent domain, it's on you to either

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Speaker 2: try to stop it or even like raise any kind

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Speaker 2: of flag, or it's just done and it's over with.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the names of those organizations are legion, I would argue.

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Speaker 3: We also need to note that this primarily targets the vulnerable.

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Speaker 3: CAF Civil asset forfeiture, when abused, overwhelmingly targets people that

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Speaker 3: cannot fight back. It is not a bug. It is

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Speaker 3: a feature of the system, and this differs from criminal forfeiture.

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Speaker 3: In criminal forfeiture cases, prosecutors have to prove someone is

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Speaker 3: guilty or reach a settlement before they can take your

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Speaker 3: cash or liquidate your stuff. Howell Clayton English, who co

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Speaker 3: hosts The War on Drugs, a podcast with Greg Claude,

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Speaker 3: has a terrifying and great ongoing story about this. He

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Speaker 3: was at Atlanta's Hartsfield Airport and he had what authorities

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Speaker 3: thought was too much stuff and so we you know,

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Speaker 3: I think we can save his story because we'll have

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Speaker 3: him on the show. As well, and he tells it

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Speaker 3: much better than we could. But what you need to

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Speaker 3: know is that Clayton's story actually is not the worst.

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Speaker 3: He has been one of the few people luckily able

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Speaker 3: to fight this in court. Because here's how it works.

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Speaker 3: The law, any law enforcement in general, dea Metro police,

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Speaker 3: whatever they think something you possess has been associated with crime.

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Speaker 3: They don't have to think you did anything. They have

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Speaker 3: to think the property is associated somehow. It could be cash,

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Speaker 3: a boat, a house. It could be your PS five.

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Speaker 3: You could be your cell phone. For the five people

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Speaker 3: out there who are not doctors still have beepers, it

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Speaker 3: could be your beeper or pager. I can't remember what

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Speaker 3: they call it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think in clayton situation it was cash. And

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Speaker 4: it turns out, or at the very least, it is

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Speaker 4: being alleged through a class action lawsuit, that there is

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Speaker 4: a pattern of this kind of behavior at the Atlanta

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Speaker 4: Airport Hartsfield Jackson, that certain types of individuals are being

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Speaker 4: singled out of line and given extra scrutiny in their

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Speaker 4: searches in order to perhaps turn up things like illegal

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Speaker 4: drugs or cash or what have you. And with the

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Speaker 4: understanding that they're going.

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Speaker 3: To take it, and so back to our SOP standard

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Speaker 3: operating procedure for this. Once that asset is taken, and

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Speaker 3: it is often cash, the only way you can get

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Speaker 3: it back is to somehow prove the asset in question

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Speaker 3: was not used in nor associated with a crime. Very difficult.

434
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 3: Let's think about that. It doubles the amount you have

435
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 3: to pay because it is on you, very possibly an

436
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 3: innocent person, to spend your time and to spend more

437
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 3: money in court proving that you did not do something illegal.

438
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 3: You also don't have to be accused of anything. You

439
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 3: don't have to be arrested, you don't have to be convicted.

440
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 3: You can get pulled over, your cash can get snatched,

441
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 3: and you're on your merry way. This occurs at a

442
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 3: state level, meaning there are honestly, there are about forty

443
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 3: six different approaches to this, because only four states have

444
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 3: banned CAAF. Federal changes could help unmuddy the water, but

445
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 3: it doesn't seem likely. And it's so weird that this

446
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 3: is something that is found bipartisan opposition. People on the

447
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 3: far left and the far right both it turns out,

448
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 3: like to hold on to their stuff and don't want

449
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 3: it to get randomly snatched. It feels very un American

450
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 3: and former Attorney General Jeff Sessions said that the federal

451
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 3: government itself has increasingly been an obstacle to reforming this.

452
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 3: But you know, we're about being objective, we're about being

453
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 3: fair here. So what do the supporters say.

454
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: Well, you can see why this came about. Right. You

455
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: can imagine in your head if we've been talking about

456
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: the war on drugs a lot, if you've got a

457
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,479
Speaker 2: transaction between somebody that has a lot of narcotics and

458
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 2: someone who's going to purchase a lot of narcotics. One

459
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,479
Speaker 2: of those people just has money at some point in

460
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 2: that transaction, right, So you can see why this was

461
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 2: made a rule and a law so that when there's

462
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 2: that transaction occurring, law enforcement can come through and say, hey,

463
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 2: you're arrested, and you're arrested. Don't think you're getting away

464
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: just because you had twenty five thousand dollars you were

465
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 2: going to buy those narcotics. So you can see why

466
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 2: it's necessary, or it was felt like it was necessary

467
00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 2: to those people who made those laws.

468
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 4: But how do you how do you how can you

469
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 4: see the future like that? You know, how can you

470
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 4: know what someone's going to do in the future with

471
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 4: something if it hasn't happened. It seems like a form

472
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 4: of pre crime, you know, in a way, it's like

473
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 4: log crime has actually been committed, but we're going to

474
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 4: presume that this is what was going to go down

475
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 4: despite us having not needed to have the foresight to

476
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 4: actually catch you in the act. It seems lazy.

477
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 2: I would say. The difference is it's changed. It's that

478
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 2: mission creep we always talk about in how things alter.

479
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 2: Originally it was meant for that kind of thing, and

480
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: now it's become, oh, that person has a lot of cash,

481
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 2: it's likely to do with this, We're going to take

482
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: it preemptively.

483
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 3: It comes to the idea of reasonable suspicion, what you

484
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 3: could even think of as probable cause. It starts with

485
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 3: the drug war, which, as we know, drugs won. Proponents

486
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 3: of civil asset forfeiture are this is a mission critical

487
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 3: tool for hamstringing crime, and there's kind of a brutal

488
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 3: poetry to it. Every year, somewhere around twelve billion dollars

489
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 3: worth of pure profit comes from the US to Mexico

490
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 3: Cartel's Cough Cough as a result of the drug trade.

491
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 3: And there's this idea that you can not only hurt

492
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 3: the cartels by taking their money or assets, but you

493
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,479
Speaker 3: can use those assets to further your own fight in

494
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 3: the war on drugs. So we're repoeing this car drug dealer.

495
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 3: Also we're using it as a new vehicle for the

496
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 3: law enforcement outfit in your neck of the woods. We're

497
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 3: taking this money. We're also using this to pay the

498
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 3: budget of our department. Right, so we are using your

499
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 3: own weapons against you. Again, brutal, poetic, but very imperfect.

500
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 3: MPR trace the broad strokes of this back in eight

501
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 3: and they show that in t two thousand and eight alone,

502
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 3: Texas seized more than one hundred and twenty five million

503
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 3: dollars pure cash just from this and then from two

504
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 3: thousand and four to two thousand and eight, speaking to

505
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 3: the Mission Creep you mentioned, Matt, the amount of assets

506
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 3: seized by local law enforcement agencies across the country, it tripled.

507
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 3: In two thousand and four, it was five hundred and

508
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 3: sixty seven million. In two thousand and eight it was

509
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 3: one point six billion. When it works, it works hurting

510
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,959
Speaker 3: criminals using their own profits to further engage in the

511
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 3: war on drugs. But The problem is people with first

512
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 3: hand experience in this stuff, counting you know, special agents

513
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 3: in the DEA and the IRS and so on, they

514
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 3: fully understand how this can become so intensely problematic. There's

515
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 3: a great quote from Jack Fishman, who is a former

516
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 3: IRS special agent, not one of the pencil pushers. He

517
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 3: was out there, he was finding Uncle Sam's money. He

518
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 3: became a defense attorney in Atlanta, Georgia, and he spoke

519
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 3: to MPR and said the following, which I think is

520
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:11,959
Speaker 3: a great illustration of this.

521
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 4: That's what he said. If a cop stops a car

522
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 4: going north with a trunk full of cocaine, that makes

523
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 4: great press coverage, makes a great photo, then they destroy

524
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 4: the cocaine. If they catch them going south the suitcase

525
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 4: full of cash. The police department just paid for its

526
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 4: budget for the year.

527
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 3: Do you think they always destroy the drugs because I don't.

528
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 4: No, I don't think so either. I mean, you always

529
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 4: see those They certainly get the photo, the whole drugs

530
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 4: on the table photo. And again this is not pointing

531
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 4: a finger any particular cop shop. I guess as they

532
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 4: call them. But like we know, corruption takes place. We

533
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 4: know that sometimes these drugs are then other things are

534
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 4: done with them.

535
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 3: You know. My favorite way to think of it is, oh,

536
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 3: I can't remember the story, but there was some some

537
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 3: clever news follower had strung together local reporting from I

538
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 3: want to say, the northern part of South America, and

539
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 3: it was something like local police make massive arrest and

540
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 3: capture two tons of cocaine or two kilos or whatever.

541
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 3: And the next story is like local police here with

542
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 3: one point five kilos of cocaine. And then the next

543
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 3: story is like local police promoted due to groundbreaking capture

544
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 3: of one kilo of cocaine. Like it's there's siphoning happening,

545
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 3: just like a ammonium nitrate on the railways. In short,

546
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 3: allowing any branch of law enforcement to profit from this

547
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 3: practice CAAF civil asset forfeiture can lead to incentivizing action

548
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 3: against people who have not been found guilty of any

549
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 3: illegal activity and presumably do not have the means to

550
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 3: retrieve their property in court. This gets nasty so quickly.

551
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 3: Just like you were saying earlier, Noel, I think let's

552
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 3: pause for a moment and get a word from our sponsors,

553
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 3: and then maybe we can talk about we can talk

554
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 3: about how this goes wrong and we've returned. No surprise.

555
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 3: We did a little hat tip to the supporters, and

556
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 3: some of their arguments are valid. But again, no surprise.

557
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 3: This practice has a lot of critics. As a matter

558
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 3: of fact, I think amongst the public, the critics outnumber

559
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 3: the fans. And the critics, again are coming from every

560
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 3: imaginable demographic, socio political status, state, personal background, you name it.

561
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 3: They're all united in the fact that they believe this

562
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 3: is dangerous and quite possibly a violation of personal rights.

563
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: Hey, well, let's give an example. Let's say, for one

564
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: reason or another, you've got twenty dollars in your pocket.

565
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 2: If you get pulled over for any reason, cop looks

566
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 2: at that twenty dollars, they're probably not gonna take it. Right.

567
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,760
Speaker 4: Let's say you've got what you're doing with the jackson.

568
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 2: Well, let's say you've got two hundred dollars in your wallet.

569
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 2: Let's say maybe because you need to go pay for

570
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:23,919
Speaker 2: childcare all the time. Well, let's say let's multiply it again.

571
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 2: Let's say it's two thousand dollars on your person. Police

572
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: officer sees that because you get pulled over for let's

573
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 2: just say, speeding or you didn't signal correctly, or whatever reason.

574
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 2: If a police officer just sees that two thousand dollars

575
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: or more laying there, they might give you the old

576
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 2: caf and take that cash from you. You're not going

577
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 2: to be arrested. You just got pulled over for a thing.

578
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 2: You're not getting prosecuted for anything. You're getting a ticket.

579
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 2: So basically, you decide, do you wanna, as you said,

580
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 2: been here in that line, take the l and move on,

581
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 2: or do you want to spend your time and money

582
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: trying to contest it because that's all you got. Now

583
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 2: do your best, maybe get an attorney. Maybe, And if

584
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: you get an attorney, how much you're gonna pay? What

585
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 2: do you think? Probably as much as you just lost,

586
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 2: no doubt.

587
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 3: Do they take benbucks, Tony boats? What's their position on

588
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 3: crypto sea horse teeth? Yeah?

589
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, you're right.

590
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 3: You'll probably have to pune up more cash. It's not

591
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 3: even counting the time you have to take off from work.

592
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 3: That's not even counting the other ways in which this

593
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 3: intrudes into your life. These expenses can quickly quickly outpace

594
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 3: the amount of money or the value of the asset

595
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 3: you're trying to retrieve. Either way, you are looking at

596
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 3: the textbook version of what's called a pyrrhic victory. You

597
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 3: can probably win at court at some point, but at

598
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 3: what cost. And unethical actors and law enforcement are totally

599
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 3: aware of this. They're totally conspiring. They know about the

600
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 3: cost benefit calculation and being evil does not mean you

601
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 3: are also stupid. They have done the math as well,

602
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 3: and the results are in. If few enough people can

603
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 3: test these civil asset forfeiture abuses, it becomes again not everywhere,

604
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 3: not everyone's crooked, but it does becomes a lot like

605
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 3: a reliable revenue stream. And that's dangerous.

606
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 2: When you could totally see it. With the Clayton English example,

607
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 2: the Eric Andre example, these are wealthy individuals that have

608
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 2: every right to be carrying around as much cash as

609
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 2: they dang well please, and the police officers find out

610
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 2: who they are when they look them up, and they

611
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 2: still are like, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna need to

612
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 2: take that money. That's nuts to me.

613
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 3: I mean, this is something that got me to just

614
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 3: to be very clear with everyone. Inside the United States,

615
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 3: you are legally allowed to carry as much cash as

616
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 3: you want. You are not and you can go over

617
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 3: the border out of and into the US with more

618
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 3: than ten thousand dollars. You just have to declare the

619
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 3: amount of.

620
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 2: Cash there you go, so that you can get picked

621
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:11,919
Speaker 2: up on the other side, so.

622
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 3: That they can so that they can get you. Yeah,

623
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 3: they just want to know. It's very strange when you

624
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 3: get into these rules. There was a great you know,

625
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 3: we've been talking a lot about the Innocence Project recently,

626
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 3: and there was this great example that they cited in

627
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 3: The Atlantic, some excellent reporting by Connor Friedersdorf. There's a

628
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 3: young guy as a heartbreaking story. His name's Joseph Rivers.

629
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 3: He's twenty two years old. He's from Romulus, Michigan. He

630
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 3: has scrimped and saved and squirreled away money to pursue

631
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 3: his dream of producing music videos in Los Angeles. His

632
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 3: mom is a cool mom. She believes in him. She's

633
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 3: also a US veteran. She helps him out and together,

634
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 3: after much labor and toil, they're able to come up

635
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 3: with sixteen thousand dollars in cash. He takes the Amtrak

636
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 3: to Albuquerque. The Dea boards the train. They take every

637
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 3: scrap of cash he has and they ditch them. He

638
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 3: can't afford to continue on to Los Angeles. He's got

639
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 3: no way to get back to Michigan. He doesn't even

640
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:22,479
Speaker 3: have money for a phone call.

641
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 2: Well, that's nuts. It feels like everybody in this story

642
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: was watching too much better call Saul.

643
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 3: Right right, and Joseph makes it home because thankfully there

644
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 3: is an anonymous stranger who helps him get back to Michigan,

645
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 3: get back to Romulus, and this stranger also contacts attorneys.

646
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 3: They did all they could. Rivers goes on to describe

647
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 3: this person as a guardian angel, and reporters asked, Albutquerque's DEA,

648
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 3: Why this kid again, he's only twenty two, Why he

649
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,720
Speaker 3: got popped? No one else on the train got popped?

650
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 3: And the agent in charge, a guy named Sean Waite,

651
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 3: talked about what the DEA calls indicators of suspicion. So

652
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 3: the idea being they have a rubric, They're not choosing

653
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 3: people randomly. They say, I.

654
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 2: Mean, yeah, but for real, how the heck do you

655
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 2: even find out he's he got sixteen thousand dollars? How

656
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 2: how do you know does he have a bag that

657
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 2: says all my money sixteen thousand dollars.

658
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 4: We're just like giant like sacks that just have dollar

659
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 4: signs on them, like you know, like a cartoon of

660
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 4: a bank robbery, Like I mean, is the implication here,

661
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 4: guys that there's forethought that goes into this and then surveillance.

662
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, their indicators are things like like to get back

663
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,720
Speaker 3: to their indicators, they said, paying for a one way ticket,

664
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 3: especially if that ticket is what they consider expensive and

665
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 3: paid in cash. To them, that's suspicious.

666
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 2: So they're looking at if it's their one way tickets

667
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,399
Speaker 2: or two way tickets already they've already got a list

668
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:56,720
Speaker 2: and they're just checking it twice.

669
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 3: Okay, then what And then if a person is travel

670
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 3: to or from a city known for drug activity aka

671
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 3: every city in the United States, but especially honest but

672
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 3: especially Albuquerque. Sorry, I'm cursing a lot. This one just

673
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 3: really bothers me. And then if someone if their story

674
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 3: has inconsistencies, and I don't know, I don't know if everybody,

675
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 3: if everyone has been has borne the brunt of an

676
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 3: investigation or interrogation by authorities, but they're very difficult to

677
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 3: get through. There's a reason why pretty much everyone with

678
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 3: a law degree tells you to clam up and contact

679
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 3: a lawyer. Doesn't matter if you did anything wrong or not,

680
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 3: just get a lawyer.

681
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 2: It's still nuts to me. Okay, you're traveling one way

682
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: ticket to Albuquerque. This feels very suspicious to us. I'm

683
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: going to ask you some questions. Are we talking about

684
00:40:55,640 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 2: at security when going through to get on to get

685
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 2: on the transportation.

686
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 3: Then when the train stopped, as I understand it, the

687
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 3: DEA boarded the train.

688
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: And they were like, hey, buddy, we need to talk

689
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 2: with you specifically.

690
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, they walked up with the old slow clap. What

691
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 3: this poor kid? Yeah, it's heartbreaking. And then they also

692
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 3: another indicator is if, in the opinion of the DEA,

693
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 3: any large sums of money that they find on your

694
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 3: person could have been transported by more conventional means. Let's

695
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 3: explore that for a second, because it does feel like

696
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 3: that's kind of institutionalizing income discrimination.

697
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 4: Right.

698
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 3: Is it illegal not to have a bank account?

699
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:45,959
Speaker 4: Not yet?

700
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, h that's really frustrating. That's really frustrating.

701
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 3: I mean you could argue too that the DEA has

702
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 3: been pushed into this situation, or law enforcement has been

703
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 3: pushed into this situation because they're taking in recently extreme

704
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 3: measures to combat the war on drugs, and again, drugs

705
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 3: are winning. So's it's kind of a greater good argument. Right,

706
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 3: we might break a few eggs, but we're making an

707
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 3: omelet of justice.

708
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 2: Ben delicious justice. We've got another quote here from that

709
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 2: same agent from the DEA. Can you please hit.

710
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 4: Us with it?

711
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 3: Oh, the scary one. So speaking to our reporter at

712
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 3: The Atlantic, agent Weight says, quote, we don't have to

713
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 3: prove that the person is guilty. It's that the money

714
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 3: is presumed to be guilty. This money is guilty, dirty money,

715
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 3: dirty cops, a bunch of Yeah, this is happening right

716
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 3: now all across the United States. Multiple outlets have explored this.

717
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 3: We're talking, we're we're talking all the ones you could imagine, right.

718
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 3: Fox News has talked about this last week. Tonight has

719
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 3: talked about this. Those are two very different audiences. Multiple

720
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 3: nonprofits have talked about this. The Atlantic has explored it,

721
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 3: The New Yorker, New York Times, you name it. The

722
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 3: hits keep coming, and so do the civil Asset forfeiture moves.

723
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 3: They're still continuing. I mean, it's even let's go back

724
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 3: to the Supremes. You know they're gonna re examine this.

725
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 3: The News just came out last month. Scotis is going

726
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,879
Speaker 3: to hear two cases, I believe, from women in Alabama

727
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 3: whose cars were seized, no proof of a crime, their

728
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,919
Speaker 3: cars were seized, and it took more than a year

729
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: for the courts to say, oh, maybe we should give

730
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 3: them their cars back. Now, let's just exercise humanity and

731
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 3: imagine in such a car centric places the United States,

732
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 3: if the law just takes your car, you're probably going

733
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 3: to lose your job, you know what I mean, you

734
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 3: might lose custody rights. If you're in a situation like that,

735
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 3: it gets very hairy, very quickly. And on top of that,

736
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 3: you have to find a lawyer, you have to fight

737
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 3: a court case. How are you going to get to

738
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 3: the court, you know what I mean?

739
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: It feels like all of us walk around on stilts

740
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: all day long, every day to try and maintain whatever

741
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 2: little it is that we have in the stability that

742
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 2: we have in our lives, and this civil asset forfiture

743
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 2: is literally somebody walking around with a baseball bat just

744
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 2: knocking stilts out, just like Aha, good luck, and that's it.

745
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: That's all. It takes one knock from this thing and

746
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 2: everything falls apart. I can imagine that's a very common scenario.

747
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 3: It's tough, you know. I mean, it's terrifying to realize

748
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:44,839
Speaker 3: just how clearly fragile individual lives can be. If one

749
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 3: thing goes wrong, something like this can produce a domino effect,

750
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 3: a ripple effect that could very well change your life

751
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 3: in the worst possible ways. Right now, CEF is outlawed

752
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 3: in Maine, Nebraska, North Carolina, and New Mexico. So there's

753
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 3: a little bit of justice for the good people of Albuquerque.

754
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 3: We did promise one last thing, and I know this

755
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 3: is something that all three of us get pretty hype about.

756
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 3: The government can take your stuff. Yes, those are two

757
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 3: clear ways that can be corrupt. They can be conspiracies.

758
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 3: It is totally legal. The US can just take your

759
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 3: stuff if they want. They can also take your ideas,

760
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 3: and since nineteen fifty one, they've been able to not

761
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 3: only do that but also legally prevent you, upon pain

762
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 3: of imprisonment, for ever telling people about your idea.

763
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 2: Just stop having ideas, Okay.

764
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 3: The Evention Secrecy Act nineteen fifty one. We did an

765
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 3: episode about it. We're running all along now, so we're

766
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 3: going to wrap it up. But please please check it

767
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 3: out and if you have ever run a foul of

768
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 3: the Invention Secrecy Act, let us know. And then you know, no, Matt,

769
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:03,399
Speaker 3: what else should we ask people for? Do you think

770
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 3: we've got anybody in the audience today who's encountered CIF

771
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 3: or eminent domain?

772
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 4: I don't know, man, But the first time I heard

773
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 4: about it was on an episode of King of the

774
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 4: Hill where the villain of the show, Ted Wassanassan was

775
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 4: like building all these McMansions and they posed some kind

776
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 4: of like hazard because they kept the blue over in

777
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 4: a storm. So he used eminent domain to convert one

778
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 4: of the lots or the house blue down into a

779
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 4: electrical substation. And the episode ends with you know, the

780
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,280
Speaker 4: gang kind of figuring out how to get the government

781
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 4: to build a house around it so it didn't look

782
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 4: like an iore of a substation. So that's that's a

783
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 4: long winded way of saying that was my first you know,

784
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 4: inkling of this whole concepts. But I would love to

785
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 4: hear if anyone's been affected by because we know that

786
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 4: it can really upend lives and communities.

787
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 2: Does anyone live in Hurst, Texas? Can you tell us

788
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 2: about the little mall that was expanded down there. Did

789
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 2: anybody have a house that was taken from there because

790
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 2: of that? Yeah, we want to know your stories about

791
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 2: all of these things, civil asset forfiture, imminent domain or

792
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: IP rights? What do they take from you?

793
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 3: Tell us about it, Invention Secrecy Act, you know, whatever

794
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 3: proxies you need to do to get it to us.

795
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 3: We'd just love to hear as much as you can

796
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 3: say about it, and there are a number of ways

797
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 3: for you to contact us. We try to be easy

798
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 3: to find online.

799
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 4: I'm right. You can find this in the handle conspiracy

800
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 4: Stuff on YouTube, Twitter and Facebook, Conspiracy Stuff show on

801
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 4: Instagram and TikTok.

802
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 2: We still have a book. It's titled stuff they don't

803
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 2: want you to know. You can find it online, get

804
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: it wherever you can buy it, give it to your friends.

805
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 2: Let's do this.

806
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 3: Hey.

807
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 2: We also have a voicemail.

808
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 3: The rumors are true. All you have to do is

809
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 3: say it with us. Call one eight three three STDWYTK.

810
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 3: You'll hear a hopefully familiar voice and then you'll hear

811
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 3: a beep like so beep, and that will get give

812
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 3: you three minutes. Those three minutes are absolutely yours. No

813
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 3: imminent domain here. Leave us your thoughts, give us a

814
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 3: cool nickname, let us know if we can use your

815
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 3: voice and or message on air, and even better than that,

816
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 3: if you have a story that needs more than three minutes,

817
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 3: If you have ancillery links, if you have photographs you

818
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 3: want us to look at. We can't wait to see them.

819
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:21,879
Speaker 3: All you have to do is drop us a good

820
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 3: old fashioned email where.

821
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 4: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

822
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

823
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

824
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.