Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is
Speaker 1: Jamie Loftus and my name is Caitlin drown Day. We
Speaker 1: get a few messages at the top of the show.
Speaker 1: Today we have some upcoming show dates including UH Live.
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast in Los Angeles will be covering Anastasia Ever
Speaker 1: Heard Of It with guest Anna Sara Gina at the
Speaker 1: Ruby Theater. And that's July and that is the episode
Speaker 1: we were doing for your birthday. So and it's our
Speaker 1: last show in l A for a couple of months,
Speaker 1: so be sure to come out celebrate with us, bring
Speaker 1: me a bunch of presents while you're at it. I
Speaker 1: will be as rest for sure. I will be dressed
Speaker 1: as a resputed um and I would say it would
Speaker 1: be the last time to incentivize people to go, but
Speaker 1: I know it won't be. Uh. And the reason we
Speaker 1: won't be here for the summer is because we will
Speaker 1: both be doing shows in Europe. That's right, That's why
Speaker 1: we'll be gone from l A for a little bit.
Speaker 1: Now you understand Dad it because Jamie, what are you doing?
Speaker 1: I'm bringing my solo show Boss Whom Is Girl to
Speaker 1: Edinburgh Fringe Festival and London. If you are not familiar,
Speaker 1: is my One Woman's show about an evil corporate feminist
Speaker 1: who uses feminism for bad, unlike us who use it
Speaker 1: for good. Um, it's it's a lot of Elizabeth, so
Speaker 1: much fun. I've seen it many times. You're Caitlyn's a
Speaker 1: stand of the show. I don't pressure her to go,
Speaker 1: but I'm really excited about it. I've never done Fringe before,
Speaker 1: so if you're a UK backtel head, I'd love to
Speaker 1: see you there. I'll be in London doing it on
Speaker 1: July eighth at the Bill Murray okay, sure, only five
Speaker 1: pounds ago and those will be the only two shows
Speaker 1: I'll be I'll be doing there for Boss and His Girl,
Speaker 1: and then i'll be at Edinburgh Fringe every damn night
Speaker 1: from July one through August at Pleasants, Baby Grand please
Speaker 1: come to those. I don't know anyone there, and it
Speaker 1: would be so great to see a friendly face shows
Speaker 1: in Europe too. Why thank you for bringing it up,
Speaker 1: Because I'm doing probably mostly stand up shows, um, some
Speaker 1: in London, some in Edinburgh, some maybe I'm going to
Speaker 1: be in Dublin too. I don't have any shows booked
Speaker 1: there yet, but until maybe he until you're like, hey, Caitlin,
Speaker 1: uh do this show in Dublin And I'm also going
Speaker 1: to be some other places in Europe to any Athens,
Speaker 1: Greece listeners, because I'll be there. I don't know what
Speaker 1: the comedy scene is like there. We're traveling women now, yes,
Speaker 1: you gotta deal with it. We're going around the world,
Speaker 1: so stay tuned with maybe announcing additional day. It's mystery
Speaker 1: question mark who knows. So keep checking betelcast dot com
Speaker 1: on our live appearances tab. That's where you can find
Speaker 1: the links to all of their shows and more so,
Speaker 1: thank you for listening and enjoy the episode that you're
Speaker 1: about to hear. On the bell Cast, the questions asked
Speaker 1: if movies have women in them, are all their discussions
Speaker 1: just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the
Speaker 1: patriarchy zef and best start changing it with the beck
Speaker 1: Del Cast. Hello and welcome to the Becktel Cast. My
Speaker 1: name is Caitlin Dronte and Jamie loved it and we
Speaker 1: talked about the portrayal and representation of women and movez
Speaker 1: yes and I said that so aware I liked it.
Speaker 1: I liked it. I like you made a choice and
Speaker 1: I and I was. It's like when you're watching a
Speaker 1: movie and you're like, that was a choice, and I
Speaker 1: come back to it. If she backs out, I'll respect
Speaker 1: her list. It's not my favorite choice, but I've never
Speaker 1: really liked that that's the one you made. It was
Speaker 1: a mistake, and I am I'm stopping. I love my
Speaker 1: favorite thing to do on stages, make a choice, feel
Speaker 1: a little bit of hesitation, immediately back up on it,
Speaker 1: and lose the entire audience. I love that when they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's really going for it. Oh she realizes it's not working.
Speaker 1: Oh she's receding into herself, and we have to spend
Speaker 1: forty five more minutes with her that I keep telling
Speaker 1: what happened to me last week? You know, wonderful, What
Speaker 1: a what a gift. Anyway, so we talk about we
Speaker 1: use the Bectel test as a jumping off point to
Speaker 1: initiate this larger conversation. And the Bechtel Test, of course,
Speaker 1: is a media test created by cartoonist Alison Bechtel, and
Speaker 1: it requires that a movie or anything with a narrative
Speaker 1: has two female defining characters with names. They have to
Speaker 1: talk to each other, and they cannot talk about men. Unbelievable.
Speaker 1: I wonder if the Lorena bob it. Thank you, Henry,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna keep talking about it. I wonder if
Speaker 1: it passes it doesn't pass the Bectel test of Loraina
Speaker 1: Bobbit chops her husband's stick off and drews it into
Speaker 1: the woods, even if she's not talking to anyone, that
Speaker 1: does automatically passed the Becktel test. Yes, okay, um, cool,
Speaker 1: Well shall we begin. Let's do it our guest today,
Speaker 1: we have a great one. I'm excited. He hosts the
Speaker 1: last culture Eristas podcast with Bone Yang, and they've been
Speaker 1: on tour with the I Don't Think so Honey Live Tour.
Speaker 1: It's Matt Rogers. Hi. Hi, Honestly, what I loved that
Speaker 1: you said before, my favorite thing to do is make
Speaker 1: a choice, and that could have been the end of
Speaker 1: the end of the sentence. And then you're like to
Speaker 1: make a choice and then back away, and I was like, perfect,
Speaker 1: and then you were like and then they're stuck with
Speaker 1: me forty five minutes. So it wasn't very specific scenario.
Speaker 1: And I loved every sentence it could have been compounded to,
Speaker 1: and the sentence that ultimately it was Plymouth, Massachusetts. The
Speaker 1: whole hour of it incredible, wonderful. Oh we forgot to mention. Okay,
Speaker 1: So full disclosure, Matt. We have an embargo on mail
Speaker 1: guests that we that we sometimes lift when the time
Speaker 1: is right and the time is right for you. We
Speaker 1: only yeah, we only do it for best of the best. Okay.
Speaker 1: So who have you had on what's the company? Alfred Molina?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we had to lift. Well yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: there was no choice. I mean, I like, I forgot
Speaker 1: that he identified as any gender. I was like an
Speaker 1: idea than a gender. Unbelievable. And I heard one Patrigan
Speaker 1: just in the room, just now. Yes, So we've been
Speaker 1: we've been very choosy. So you know, you're really some
Speaker 1: top tier ship. Honestly, I'm really grateful that you guys
Speaker 1: have chosen me. And I do think that the movie
Speaker 1: I chose for you guys like, it's good that I'm
Speaker 1: here to talk about it. It's only white gay talk
Speaker 1: about white gay bullshit. Okay, I am No one else's
Speaker 1: take counts. This is a white gay fantasia, and I'm
Speaker 1: here to expound on it. So today's movie, of course,
Speaker 1: is Love Simon. What is your history with have you
Speaker 1: read the book, what's your like, what's your relationship? I
Speaker 1: have not read the book. I did see the film
Speaker 1: in theaters. I was a good supporter of this LGBT cinema.
Speaker 1: Um well, when it came out, I was kind of like,
Speaker 1: oh boy, like what's what's this going to be? And
Speaker 1: then I I kind of was like, you know what,
Speaker 1: let's give it a shot. And I did end up
Speaker 1: crying by the end of the film. I actually cried
Speaker 1: a couple of times. I saw it with my best
Speaker 1: friend Sudie Green, and we we went and we were
Speaker 1: emotionally affected by it. And then I had that moment
Speaker 1: of everyone that had criticism of it that was like
Speaker 1: justifiably good criticism. I was kind of like defensive about
Speaker 1: it because I was like, but but just let us
Speaker 1: have this and then but also it's like not a
Speaker 1: perfect film, and also it's it's super like for the privileged.
Speaker 1: But I did like enjoy the film, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean as a movie. I was like, I'd rather
Speaker 1: see this movie than like fucking paper Heart or whatever
Speaker 1: that ship was with, you know what I mean. I
Speaker 1: just was like, at least it's different than that. I
Speaker 1: don't have patience for a John Green joint. I just
Speaker 1: don't I don't care, Like I really don't care about
Speaker 1: like this, like sort of I don't even know if
Speaker 1: i'd call it twee, but like this kind of like
Speaker 1: mystical team girl bullshit, I don't care, Like she always
Speaker 1: has to I for like The Boy to learn a
Speaker 1: lesson and that's the movie, right, And also The Boy
Speaker 1: and those movies just so fucking boring. And also if
Speaker 1: there's like a sort of interesting male character, you know,
Speaker 1: there has to be a boring character. It's like in
Speaker 1: those films, like one of them has to be boring.
Speaker 1: And I'm not right. I'm not saying that Simon isn't boring,
Speaker 1: because Simon is pretty boring and has an Elliott Smith
Speaker 1: Foster and and and Radiohead April two written on his
Speaker 1: chalkboard walls. You're just like, man, he's like you know
Speaker 1: other gays, he's and that's not like the other guys.
Speaker 1: He's straight. Yeah, he's like, may as well be straight.
Speaker 1: And also like when he's asking his friend when he
Speaker 1: does come out to his one friend and he's like,
Speaker 1: did you expect anything? Did you suspect anything? And she's like,
Speaker 1: I mean no, like because you're too freaking boring to
Speaker 1: have any personality to draw anything on the most exciting
Speaker 1: thing about you as a poster on your wall. Know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of I mean, and I guess teenagers
Speaker 1: like I definitely did this to some extent, but a
Speaker 1: lot of like this is the character and you can
Speaker 1: tell because this is their bedroom, like boor At kid.
Speaker 1: Like boor At kid, You're like, oh, I know the
Speaker 1: vibe of this kid. It's boor At kids. I actually
Speaker 1: I was like justifying to my friends why he was
Speaker 1: so boring. I'm like, the thing is like when you're
Speaker 1: day in high school, you don't have a personality because
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to have one, Like he's saying he
Speaker 1: likes Radiohead because he can't really say, like Christina Aguilera,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like all these things true,
Speaker 1: And I was like, you know what, Yes, that could
Speaker 1: be true, or maybe the filmmakers are just like he's
Speaker 1: a kid that likes Radiohead, which I think both are
Speaker 1: equally possible. I don't know. I want to assume it's
Speaker 1: smarter than it is, but it could just be like
Speaker 1: a fine B plus movie, which I love, I love,
Speaker 1: I love that for it. I really like this movie,
Speaker 1: and I have I'm coming at it with some blind spots,
Speaker 1: but I saw it twice in theaters and I did
Speaker 1: a good lots of good laughs, some good cry and
Speaker 1: thank you for that. I was very emotionally invested in
Speaker 1: this story and that, of course know it's it's not
Speaker 1: without its issues, but we'll talk about those. But I
Speaker 1: generally really liked this movie. I saw it this morning.
Speaker 1: I laughed, I cried. Yeah, I liked it. And then
Speaker 1: when I was like, who wrote this movie? And it's
Speaker 1: that this is us writers, which makes so much sense
Speaker 1: because they're pulling. Yeah, they're pulling at the exact like
Speaker 1: there is an element to this movie at times where
Speaker 1: it's like you feel like your heart strings are being
Speaker 1: pulled very scientifically and methodically. They're like first I'm going
Speaker 1: to do this, and then I'm gonna throw in a
Speaker 1: dead scene, and then like then Jennifer Garner's the mom,
Speaker 1: which is like at this point, that's what she does,
Speaker 1: that she This is my second favorite Jennifer Garner mom role.
Speaker 1: But what's the first favorite? Juno Juno? Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: I might like this movie more than Juno or maybe
Speaker 1: definitely or maybe maybe it's been a long time since
Speaker 1: I've seen Juno, you know, just to like flat out
Speaker 1: say this just up top, because I already feel myself
Speaker 1: being like needlessly cynical about it. It was very kind
Speaker 1: of cool to see a depiction of two gay kids
Speaker 1: kissing at the and and then everyone sharing, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, because that would never have happened when
Speaker 1: I was in high school. And I think that, like,
Speaker 1: you know, the criticism of this movie like it is
Speaker 1: what it is, but also it's like, come on, it's
Speaker 1: it's a nice movie where good things happened to someone
Speaker 1: who struggles, and you know, I can relate to the struggle.
Speaker 1: And sure, like I think we as a society are
Speaker 1: still progressing and in some cases regressing, but like you know,
Speaker 1: we're always hoping for more intersectionality in movies and in
Speaker 1: in media, but you know, it has to start somewhere,
Speaker 1: and I feel like this is a good in the
Speaker 1: right direction. And the fact that this movie had like
Speaker 1: a gigantic release and it was very successful and like
Speaker 1: well regarded that, yeah that says a lot. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: actually made my parents go see it. I was like,
Speaker 1: you should go see this movie because my dad like,
Speaker 1: and my dad said it hurt his feelings. I was like,
Speaker 1: why did it hurt your feelings? He was like, well,
Speaker 1: the scene with the debt, because to be honest with you,
Speaker 1: the scene the dad. And I think Josh Dumel's best performance.
Speaker 1: Let's just say, I don't know if I've ever seen
Speaker 1: him be like, I've never been impressed with him before
Speaker 1: this movie. He was good. And also I think like
Speaker 1: it's kind of it's that kind of thing where it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, you're giving that scene as an actor, and
Speaker 1: like it's probably pretty hard to mess that up, like
Speaker 1: it's pretty emotional situation. But he was great. And I
Speaker 1: remember I said to my dad, I was like, you
Speaker 1: should go see this movie. And he's like the scene
Speaker 1: with the dad about him missing it, that was like
Speaker 1: very similar. When I was watching that scene, I actually
Speaker 1: like was very emotionally if I did by it because
Speaker 1: it mirrored the own scene in my own life very
Speaker 1: I mean even the vest he was wearing. Remember he's
Speaker 1: wearing that coffee dad vest over a flannel with a
Speaker 1: hat on. That was my dad's like that that he
Speaker 1: was doing like Rich Rogers drag in that scene, And
Speaker 1: I was like oh boy. And so the way he
Speaker 1: was being emotional about it, they were standing very far
Speaker 1: away from each other. It was kind of just like,
Speaker 1: it's that kind of masculinity that there's like that thing
Speaker 1: that needs to get broken down. Extra it did a
Speaker 1: like a job in that scene of depicting that and
Speaker 1: so so between that and also the scene with the
Speaker 1: mom and there was lots of stuff that was gonna
Speaker 1: get me. Sure, Yeah, it's I mean I cried a
Speaker 1: lot during that like sequence of him coming out to
Speaker 1: different people where just and then one of the scenes
Speaker 1: would end, you like, and then another one would start
Speaker 1: you'd be like, ah. The sister too, was tough for me.
Speaker 1: When the sister comes to his room and is like, Simon,
Speaker 1: are you okay? Is it true? And he was like
Speaker 1: get out of here and yelled at the sister. Had
Speaker 1: I wish they had had more of a reconciling somewhere
Speaker 1: in the end they don't really get that. I guess
Speaker 1: he gives her a queens in art and that was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that that was I think that was for me, the
Speaker 1: most privileged moment of the movie. I'm like, Simon, where
Speaker 1: did you get this money? For a least everyone seems
Speaker 1: very wealthy. That is one of I like that. It
Speaker 1: did make me laugh a lot where where like where
Speaker 1: it starts where like I'm like you, I just got
Speaker 1: a car from my parents. My house has five rooms,
Speaker 1: Like my mom is incredibly liberal, like as if she
Speaker 1: were in her early twenties in New York City, like
Speaker 1: smashed the patriarchy and they're fucking gigantic house. I am
Speaker 1: assuming was bought with an oil fortune. Like, we don't
Speaker 1: know that, it's crazy his mom is a therapist. Oh, yes,
Speaker 1: they do say that, right, I don't know, Yeah, we
Speaker 1: don't know what his dad does. Though I don't think
Speaker 1: I know. I don't think they say. You know. That
Speaker 1: was actually something about it where I was like maybe
Speaker 1: something they were going for which didn't really land and
Speaker 1: just felt like privilege. But maybe what they were going
Speaker 1: for was like a kid like this that it seems
Speaker 1: like has everything can be hurting very much. And I
Speaker 1: think that that is like something I sort of related to.
Speaker 1: My family was an upper middle class. We were middle
Speaker 1: class comfortable. My mom was a hairdresser and my dad
Speaker 1: was a phizzed teacher. Like we we had a nice house,
Speaker 1: but I was still in pain every single day, like
Speaker 1: an immense amount of emotional pain. And I didn't think
Speaker 1: I was lucky, you know what I mean? And so
Speaker 1: I think something that the film could have done was
Speaker 1: maybe just given more of an acknowledgement of that sort
Speaker 1: of like privilege. Sure, he comes from a place of
Speaker 1: economic privilege, of white privilege, and we can talk more
Speaker 1: about that, but first, how would we do the freaking
Speaker 1: recap recap he I'm talking about the specifically, so we
Speaker 1: meet Simon, he is he describes himself as a He's
Speaker 1: It's like he's like Brochure, Like, oh my god, You're like,
Speaker 1: is he twenty two? Isn't It was? The first thing
Speaker 1: I did was google his age to see if I
Speaker 1: should feel like a pervert, but it's yeah. I was
Speaker 1: just like, oh this is fine, and I'm actually going
Speaker 1: to see, like where's he at, what's he doing? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Of course, And he would describe himself as a normal teenager.
Speaker 1: You know, he's a senior in high school. He's got
Speaker 1: some great friends. Their names are Leah, Nick and Abby group. Yes,
Speaker 1: another Brochure friend group. He's got a great family and
Speaker 1: things are going pretty well for him, except that he's
Speaker 1: got this one big secret. It's that he's gay and
Speaker 1: no one knows. He's still completely in the closet. So
Speaker 1: at school, there's like this blog that's popular among the students.
Speaker 1: It's Leah's only character trait is that she loves I
Speaker 1: relate so closely with Leah of being this like calling
Speaker 1: a friend frantically, being like refresher Internet like just God,
Speaker 1: and being in love with Game and forever like that's
Speaker 1: just she. I felt very close. Um, And she says, hey,
Speaker 1: did you see the latest post. It's from a guy
Speaker 1: who posted anonymously as code named Blue, and he is
Speaker 1: saying that he is gay, and Simon is like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, there's someone else like me. So he writes
Speaker 1: him an email. He writes Blue an email, Shock. I
Speaker 1: love that they took the time to show us that
Speaker 1: he made a shell Gmail account. I'm like, that is
Speaker 1: appropriately saro. So he writes Blue this email saying like, hey,
Speaker 1: I've also got a big secret. But he also signs
Speaker 1: it anonymously as again code name Shock, so they still
Speaker 1: don't know each other's identities. And then he's like waiting
Speaker 1: for him to write back, and then Blue finally writes back.
Speaker 1: Tony Hale is screwball comedy. He's like buster blue thing
Speaker 1: all over the place. Tony Hale's character was a little touchy.
Speaker 1: For mind. He was a very touchy vice prince and
Speaker 1: he was completely inappropriate in a way that's like maybe
Speaker 1: we could have seen a movie about this like fifteen
Speaker 1: years ago, and like we would have said nothing, but
Speaker 1: like now it's like stop being this way with these kids.
Speaker 1: It felt a little out of place with like the
Speaker 1: movie very modern, but then it was like, oh the
Speaker 1: like it's I know, this movie is like clearly pulling
Speaker 1: from a lot of John hughesy kind of stuff, but
Speaker 1: that was the one parents. I'm like, that's like just
Speaker 1: straight up textbook John. He is perverted like he was.
Speaker 1: He was dangerous. Yeah, I was like he should be fired.
Speaker 1: But he's like, I've got a tender date tonight and
Speaker 1: I'm trying to fuck and he tells that to his
Speaker 1: student and then he like claused. The student is like
Speaker 1: we can talk about this here. I was like, you're fired.
Speaker 1: Its wild. So then anyways, but he seems to be
Speaker 1: having a good time in the role. He's having a
Speaker 1: great time in the role. I bet his day he's
Speaker 1: tossing in some improv line seeing what sticks. I wonder
Speaker 1: if it was ever even discussed on set, like hey,
Speaker 1: this principle is like a little edgy huh. And they
Speaker 1: were just like, no, he's fun and then like his
Speaker 1: last beat is like a bizarro no homo joke. He
Speaker 1: was like, you're just like Tony, You're You're Emmy nominated.
Speaker 1: You don't need this. Another great teacher in the film,
Speaker 1: Righting love that character. She was amazing and she had
Speaker 1: all the fun. She had a lot of the L
Speaker 1: O L one. Definitely. She is the theater teacher. And
Speaker 1: Simon is doing theater. He's doing a production of Cabaret
Speaker 1: with Abby, his other friend, which to me was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if this guy is being closeted, would
Speaker 1: be even be in the play. That took me back
Speaker 1: to my high school days where I didn't do anything really, no,
Speaker 1: did no plays, didn't know nothing, because that was that
Speaker 1: would have been a huge tell. Either could be like
Speaker 1: a dead giveaway kind of situation. Yeah, and I mean
Speaker 1: I didn't even have to deal with it being Cabaret,
Speaker 1: like he's playing like the MC in Cabaret or who
Speaker 1: was playing it was like an extra Okay, So he
Speaker 1: was in the cabaret. But either way, in cabaret, if
Speaker 1: you're in cabaret, you're doing some sexy. It is a
Speaker 1: sexy hip movement. I gotta see cabaret and Hello Dolly,
Speaker 1: my SERI and Dolly change. No, it's a dancer. I
Speaker 1: was never in any of the musicals because I have
Speaker 1: the worst singing voice in the world. It's true. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: the Lady Gaga stars, thank you so much that I'm
Speaker 1: going to be discovered on this podcast. Okay, So Blue
Speaker 1: finally writes back, and he and Simon get to talking
Speaker 1: over email about their experience with being gay, and they're
Speaker 1: like sexual awakenings and all this stuff. They're both very articulate. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're great writers. They're like screenwriters there. It's almost like
Speaker 1: they've written many episodes of This is Us. They also
Speaker 1: capitalize and use they use punctuation. I'm like, this is
Speaker 1: a teenager. But like, who were the guys they say
Speaker 1: gave them their sexual awakenings again, Daniel Radcliffe and John Snow, yes,
Speaker 1: those are good ones. Those are They show two very
Speaker 1: different young gays. What I mean like, well, actually no,
Speaker 1: they're both into young Yeah, from like very nerdy properties
Speaker 1: yeah exactly. Okay, well, yeah, these these boys are bound
Speaker 1: to each other. You're right. I liked I liked when
Speaker 1: they cut from the john Snow to like every teenager
Speaker 1: wearing a john Snow t shirt in the high school.
Speaker 1: You're like. That was very stressful for me because it's
Speaker 1: all it's kind of like shamy for like how people look.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, here's a guy who's like he's kind
Speaker 1: of chubby, and like here's a guy who's brown, and
Speaker 1: it's like I wouldn't want to date any of Then
Speaker 1: they do do a little bit of that, yeah, with
Speaker 1: no awareness. Right, Yeah, that was a little It's weird.
Speaker 1: I was thinking the whole time. I was like, what
Speaker 1: if Blue is not Hollywood hot? At the I thought
Speaker 1: about that too. Spoiler Allard, he is absolutely Hollywood. He
Speaker 1: is completely is he over eighteen? He is Thank god
Speaker 1: you can jack off to him to guild. But he's like,
Speaker 1: I'm it was so like, I don't know, he's like
Speaker 1: Hollywood hotter than Simon. You're just I was like, it
Speaker 1: would have been an interesting choice for it to be
Speaker 1: like someone who was not the hottest person ever, But
Speaker 1: like whatever, they it was a good kiss. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: cried during it anyway. Okay, So Simon starts to speculate
Speaker 1: about who Blue might be, and then at first he
Speaker 1: thinks it's this guy named Bram who plays soccer with
Speaker 1: his friend Nick, and then emailing back and forth still
Speaker 1: and then at one point Simon leaves this email logged
Speaker 1: in on a computer at the school library. Enter bore
Speaker 1: at kids, Enter Martin, who sucks so bad, but he
Speaker 1: that actor does a great job of making that character
Speaker 1: so unlikable and well that kid, that kid that you
Speaker 1: were just like, why am I involved with this person? Like?
Speaker 1: He really was well well drawn out. He to me
Speaker 1: felt like the logical conclusion of Chicken Nuggets kid from
Speaker 1: eighth grade. Really that makes me so sad. You don't
Speaker 1: think that Chicken Nuggets grade like figured himself out. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, I had so much hope for Chicken Nuggets.
Speaker 1: I thought Chicken Nuggets kid was the best I thought
Speaker 1: right there in eighth grade, Elsie Fisher had literally found
Speaker 1: her husband. I'm like, girl, it worked out for you
Speaker 1: in the end. You fucking nailed it. Like Chicken Nugg
Speaker 1: gets an interesting TV and Morty and he's already he
Speaker 1: has romantic instincts at eighth grade. Come on, I take
Speaker 1: it all back and take it off worse than him.
Speaker 1: He's probably also going to be sucking dynamite in bed
Speaker 1: later on because he has to try the worst people
Speaker 1: in better the hottest. He's going to make it come
Speaker 1: because no one's ever going to tell like, well, hot people,
Speaker 1: They're just never going to be told that they're not
Speaker 1: doing something right exactly ever. And it's like, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to be the one to tell them I'm just
Speaker 1: happy to be here, or that they have to do something.
Speaker 1: For example, Simon, and when we find out who Blue
Speaker 1: is later and he is Hollywood hot. When they finally
Speaker 1: do have sex, it's going to be like, well, who
Speaker 1: tries you know what I mean? They're going to have
Speaker 1: to take turns, making an ass like kind of rubbing
Speaker 1: against each other in a very unsexy way because Blue
Speaker 1: is like, I'm ten out of ten hot, and Simon
Speaker 1: is like, well, I'm eight out of ten hot and white.
Speaker 1: So so he's like, think anything anyway, anyway, we have
Speaker 1: to take a quick break, but we'll come right back.
Speaker 1: So Martin logs in onto the that Simon was using
Speaker 1: and he sees the emails. So then he approaches Simon
Speaker 1: and basically blackmails him and says, hey, I really like
Speaker 1: your friend Abby. Everyone likes his friend, yes, and I
Speaker 1: need your help getting with her. And if you don't
Speaker 1: help me, I will expose your emails and out you
Speaker 1: to the school. But there is something about this girl
Speaker 1: where you kind of believe that she's like the one
Speaker 1: that she's the one that everyone wants to be with.
Speaker 1: It makes sense, and she's like a good character and
Speaker 1: she's a good friend and all that too, so they
Speaker 1: don't fall into the pitfall of like the bitchy hot girl.
Speaker 1: And they made it that she was new to the
Speaker 1: school too. They made that she had only been there
Speaker 1: for like a year, so you buy it even more
Speaker 1: because there's like that new girl who there's like an
Speaker 1: air of mystery about you know what I mean? That
Speaker 1: was a smart and she was the only one who
Speaker 1: seemed to be of like a lower socio economic class
Speaker 1: because she lives in an apartment building versus a huge
Speaker 1: McMansion like everyone else lives in. So there's that um
Speaker 1: but okay, so anyway, so Simon agrees to help Martin
Speaker 1: so that he's not being outed. So Simon invites Martin
Speaker 1: to the Halloween party that Bram is throwing that weekend.
Speaker 1: They all go to the party and like Nick and
Speaker 1: Abbey are vibing, Martin tries to butt in but it's
Speaker 1: not working, and then like Nick wants to ask Abby out.
Speaker 1: I'm like having deja vu as you're saying, like Nick
Speaker 1: and Abbey are vibing, because I'm sure I've heard this
Speaker 1: in regards to some people. For sure they've been vibing
Speaker 1: for millennia someone. But because Simon is like, beholden to
Speaker 1: this awful blackmail situation of Martin's, he has to be like, no, Nick,
Speaker 1: don't ask Abby out. She's dating this college dude. He
Speaker 1: makes up some imaginary person. Yeah, he becomes a prolific
Speaker 1: liar in a web of lies. A web of lies. Um, meanwhile,
Speaker 1: a teen lie. So many teen movies are based on bets,
Speaker 1: tricks or lies. Yes. So meanwhile Simon is working up
Speaker 1: the nerve to tell Bram that he's Jacques at this party,
Speaker 1: but then he walks in on Bram kissing a girl,
Speaker 1: so he's like, well, Blue is not Bram never mind.
Speaker 1: So now Simon thinks that Blue might be this guy
Speaker 1: who's a server at the Waffle house. Also Cutie again,
Speaker 1: is he a teenager or is he? We have to
Speaker 1: be very careful about who we say is hot. And
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that no one in this movie is
Speaker 1: a legitimate teenager except maybe the little Sister. Sure everyone
Speaker 1: else is in their ties based on my cursory, Like
Speaker 1: the Little Sisters, I AMDB and she's got like a
Speaker 1: fucking glamour shot and it's like age thirty six. She
Speaker 1: just did like fucking Lady Macbeth. I hope. So okay.
Speaker 1: So then Simon comes out to Abby and it was
Speaker 1: so that girl that you come out to I loved
Speaker 1: that scene too, That's great. Yeah, she was like, oh yeah, sure.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh cool, you're still too hot for this,
Speaker 1: You're still too hot for that situation. She's like, I'm
Speaker 1: not surprised. I wasn't expecting anything, but I'm not surprised.
Speaker 1: Crazy to think about, because I'm also incredibly smart and
Speaker 1: perceptive and nice and very chill as well. There's nothing
Speaker 1: wrong with me actually, And then something that this happens
Speaker 1: in a movies a lot, where it's like she's the only,
Speaker 1: like you point out, she's the only character who's like
Speaker 1: a little bit poorer than everyone else, and that is
Speaker 1: always like weirdly exoticized in like teen movies, like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's kind of from the other side of the track.
Speaker 1: She's got a little bit of otherworldly wisdom from what
Speaker 1: with being poor and so like, it's just like she's
Speaker 1: been hungry once, right, like, so like she's actually got
Speaker 1: a lot to teach us. And it was right and
Speaker 1: it would like definitely set off some red flags if
Speaker 1: she was like the only person of color in the
Speaker 1: movie who also happened to be the only person who
Speaker 1: was of a lower class. But you see like Nick
Speaker 1: and Bram also with huge houses, so it's like, okay, well,
Speaker 1: at least they're not doing that kind of house. Does
Speaker 1: we don't see Ethan's house? Which one's Ethan? Ethan is
Speaker 1: the only out kid in school. Oh no, we do
Speaker 1: not see his home. Correct, we should say there is
Speaker 1: another out kid at school named Ethan. And because of
Speaker 1: the way Ethan gets treated, Simon stays in the closet,
Speaker 1: but he's reluctant to Yeah, he wants, like Blue and Jacque,
Speaker 1: to reveal their real identities to each other, but Blue
Speaker 1: isn't ready, so we still don't know who Blue is. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: like Abby is warming up to Martin and Nick is like,
Speaker 1: fuck it, I'm just gonna tell Abbe that I like her.
Speaker 1: But like Simon has to keep up this sharade, and
Speaker 1: he's like, what if you consider Leah instead of Abby?
Speaker 1: Because Simon thinks that Leah is in love with Nick.
Speaker 1: She want not idiot, She's in love with him. It's
Speaker 1: so obvious. That was one thing I thought was a
Speaker 1: little not right with the movie. Is it's like in
Speaker 1: that scene where Leah, who like fully sleeps over Simon's
Speaker 1: house in his room, somehow that's allowed. Um, She's like,
Speaker 1: I just want to love one person, looking him dead
Speaker 1: in the eyes, and she's like I like you basically,
Speaker 1: and he's just like, yeah, anyway, good night, And he
Speaker 1: I knew. I knew every time one of my friends
Speaker 1: was interested in me. It set me off into an
Speaker 1: interior panic, which I think was something that could have explored. Sure, yeah,
Speaker 1: like a part of it's a big part of being
Speaker 1: closet in high school. It's like navigating like the fact
Speaker 1: being that you are expected to have like a heterosexual experience.
Speaker 1: Maybe he's just not very personal, like I'm I'm rarely
Speaker 1: knowing that it's hard to know, like he's so borning
Speaker 1: but a great, perceptive, beautiful writer and emails, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't can't take any signals from someone he's known for
Speaker 1: his entire life. That was a little bit off, And
Speaker 1: it's also I don't know, Yeah, I felt. I felt.
Speaker 1: I felt really bad for Leah's character almost the entire
Speaker 1: movie because she doesn't really get a win at all,
Speaker 1: down to the very end where Simon's like, get in
Speaker 1: the back seat, my sexy boyfriends taking your spot, So
Speaker 1: Leah has to sit in the back where her two
Speaker 1: friends are french ng and then like the only boy
Speaker 1: she's ever been in love with is with his sexy
Speaker 1: boyfriend in the front seat, and it's like, God, you
Speaker 1: sucked down that ice coffee like you've earned it. But
Speaker 1: she is going to Leah is literally the type of
Speaker 1: girl who fucking blossoms in college. College. She is going
Speaker 1: to be crushing Dick in college. Yeah, Like guys are
Speaker 1: gonna be lining up because she's super smart. She's like
Speaker 1: television star beautiful. In fact, she is the star of
Speaker 1: Thirteen Reasons Why on Netflix. Oh is that okay? I
Speaker 1: see I have only watched the first episode of thirteen
Speaker 1: reasons why. But it freaked me out because it's a bad,
Speaker 1: dangerous show. It's like suicide is actually sick, like like
Speaker 1: gikes um. Okay. So then they're all at the homecoming
Speaker 1: football game and Lyle the waffle house guy is there
Speaker 1: and he's like, Hey, what's Abby's deal. She's so he's
Speaker 1: not gay after all, so he's not blue. Um. And
Speaker 1: then Martin thinks that he needs to make this big
Speaker 1: grand gesture with Abby, which Simon and I was so
Speaker 1: mad when he did this. That was Simon's idea. Simon
Speaker 1: gave him that idea to do a grand jest. I
Speaker 1: would argue, he just says, go bigger. Well, he says yeah.
Speaker 1: To me, it's he's just trying to get Martin off,
Speaker 1: just like says a cliche, just to like get rid
Speaker 1: of them. I guess, I don't know, maybe I'm being
Speaker 1: too mean to Sigmon. But even in that waffle house
Speaker 1: scene where this is like one of the most unrealistic
Speaker 1: fact to the movie to me, in the waffle house
Speaker 1: scene where Martin does that thing of standing on the
Speaker 1: table and my name's Abby and I'm beautiful and I
Speaker 1: deserve the world, and then Eventually he convinces her to
Speaker 1: stand and she becomes okay with it. I'm like, like,
Speaker 1: that just reminds me of so many tense drama club
Speaker 1: parties that I did not want to scream at and
Speaker 1: yet and she also like it gives the weird vibe
Speaker 1: that she's like now going to have a crush on him, right.
Speaker 1: I was like, no, I think this is like fully humiliating.
Speaker 1: It's like not in line with her character. Yeah, I've, I've,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I felt bad for her in that
Speaker 1: scene and I was like, Simon, can you help out
Speaker 1: with this? But you know he's being black mountains, right
Speaker 1: or right? So at the big game, Martin steals the
Speaker 1: microphone from the student who is singing the national anthem
Speaker 1: and very publicly professes his love for Abby, and then
Speaker 1: she's like, I don't like you like that, and so
Speaker 1: like to draw attention away from his humiliation, Martin leaks
Speaker 1: Simon's emails and outs him on that big Crab blog.
Speaker 1: The little sister comes running in. She's concerned. He's like,
Speaker 1: get the funk out of here. A little bit before this,
Speaker 1: Simon thinks that Blue might now be this guy Cal
Speaker 1: who is in cabaret with him. There's like a little
Speaker 1: speculation about that. So now that Simon has been outed,
Speaker 1: he's freaking out. He goes up to cal and he's like,
Speaker 1: are you blue, and Call says I'm not, and then
Speaker 1: he ends up coming out to his family Simon does.
Speaker 1: It doesn't go very well. His his dad like a
Speaker 1: joke about It's dad is like the king of microaggressions,
Speaker 1: like every time he's on screen means well, but he's
Speaker 1: not nailing it. Yeah, So it had been like Christmas
Speaker 1: break and now everyone's back at school and his friends
Speaker 1: confront him and they're like, Abby's like, you pimped me
Speaker 1: out and that's very fucked up. H Nick is like,
Speaker 1: you tried to set me up with Leah. That was
Speaker 1: fucked up. And then Leah's like you're the one I
Speaker 1: was in love with and then you tried to set
Speaker 1: me up with Nick. That was very fucked up. I
Speaker 1: hated this scene. This scene sucked to me because it's like,
Speaker 1: this kid just went through one of the worst things
Speaker 1: in his life, maybe he might ever go through, and
Speaker 1: all of you can't fucking deal with the fact that,
Speaker 1: like you went through like a week long period of
Speaker 1: like minor inconvenience socially because he was fucking getting black
Speaker 1: mouthed and drowning. I hated this and for them to
Speaker 1: leave him like that, like that could have went really badly.
Speaker 1: Kids like that like that are closeted, that are in
Speaker 1: that sort of that have been publicly humiliated like that,
Speaker 1: for you to bail on him, I was like, this
Speaker 1: is so funny. I understand why it happens in the
Speaker 1: movie version of this story because he has to go
Speaker 1: through like the low point where everyone has basically turned
Speaker 1: their back on him, But in the content, it just
Speaker 1: felt so like too much. Yeah, and and a generally,
Speaker 1: like the kids in this movie are generally pretty like
Speaker 1: I don't know, it just like seemed out of character
Speaker 1: for all. Like it's one thing if they're like, hey,
Speaker 1: we're piste off that you did this, but like bailing
Speaker 1: on him just seems like right, yeah, I know, it's
Speaker 1: a movie. I said. I was worried that Abby was
Speaker 1: just going to let him off the hook for like
Speaker 1: pimping her out, so like her anger I think was
Speaker 1: the most justified. Like I didn't hate that she confronted
Speaker 1: him about it, but it was weird that they were
Speaker 1: all like and you've been out it and fuck you'll
Speaker 1: see you. Maybe never that any of them confronted him.
Speaker 1: I just I just don't I don't know the fact
Speaker 1: that they completely abandoned him in a time where you
Speaker 1: know you're and is like very vulnerable, seems we didn't
Speaker 1: even ask how he was doing. They didn't they didn't
Speaker 1: even check in with them, like, Hi, we can talk
Speaker 1: about like what you've done to us, but like first,
Speaker 1: let's confront you on the street in this pack, and
Speaker 1: we're not even going to ask one question about the fallout,
Speaker 1: like with your family or like how you are where
Speaker 1: your head's at. It might have worked a little better
Speaker 1: for me if like one friend couldn't let it go
Speaker 1: and it seemed more like a personal character, But it
Speaker 1: was all of them, and so we're just like, oh,
Speaker 1: so they're right, Like it's just it was, yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know totally. So then there's a few scenes where
Speaker 1: like Simon confronts Martin tells him to suck off. He
Speaker 1: has a scene with his mom where she's like you're
Speaker 1: still you and I love you, garnering out and she's
Speaker 1: and then the scene with the dad that we already
Speaker 1: talked about a little. There's a great scene with Natasha
Speaker 1: Rothwell when these two bullies like confront Simon for being
Speaker 1: gay and also um Ethan, the kid that's already been out,
Speaker 1: and Natasha Rathabel comes up and she's like basically and
Speaker 1: they will, I want to make that my ringtone. I
Speaker 1: it was really good. And then they all go to
Speaker 1: the principal's office and I love that, like even the
Speaker 1: gay kids have to like gets into the principal's office
Speaker 1: to like hear their apology. It's like we're totally putting
Speaker 1: the burden on them despite them being totally not there there.
Speaker 1: It's like, I mean, I love that scene between Ethan
Speaker 1: and Simon was one of my favorite parts. But I
Speaker 1: was like, man, Tony Hale, you really like don't know
Speaker 1: what you're doing us. At least it was clear that
Speaker 1: he was like that was the wrong thing to do,
Speaker 1: because for sure he seems so incompetent in that scene.
Speaker 1: But I was happy that they did put Ethan and
Speaker 1: Simon together for at least one point, because Simon gives
Speaker 1: the moving an opportunity which I think it could have
Speaker 1: taken more, but the movie gets a chance to at
Speaker 1: least be like yeah, I'm like gay, black and all,
Speaker 1: so like not necessarily conforming to gender in the way
Speaker 1: that we all dress and everything like that, so it's
Speaker 1: crazy hard for me and my family will not accept me.
Speaker 1: I'm like yours. So it's like, yeah, I thought it
Speaker 1: definitely like started to shed some light on another perspective,
Speaker 1: and I thought maybe we could have gone a little
Speaker 1: bit further with that um. But it was nice to
Speaker 1: at least hear from this kid, and it didn't just
Speaker 1: feel like the movie was using the kid as a prop. Definitely,
Speaker 1: there was a punch of the man who played Ethan,
Speaker 1: who of course is twenty seven years old, did like
Speaker 1: a bunch of really good Clark Jones, Clark Moore, Clark
Speaker 1: Moore did, he did, He did a bunch of really
Speaker 1: good interviews around I think like really took full advantage
Speaker 1: of being a part of this movie to like speak
Speaker 1: more to that um and said kind of what you
Speaker 1: said earlier, mat of like I hope what people take
Speaker 1: away from the movie is that even if you're in
Speaker 1: a very privileged position, it's still an impossible place to
Speaker 1: be in for a lot of people. But he also
Speaker 1: he spoke a little bit I just want to share
Speaker 1: share a quote. May I sure, may I he did?
Speaker 1: He didn't interview with teen Vogue incredible and said quote,
Speaker 1: we're used to seeing strong black characters, especially if they're effeminate.
Speaker 1: Ethan has some depth added to his character where he's
Speaker 1: not just the punchline. He has vulnerabilities just as much
Speaker 1: as anybody else, even though he's comedic relief. He's also
Speaker 1: a source of inspiration for young people nervous about being
Speaker 1: accepted by others. So I wish I mean, it's like
Speaker 1: I wish he was a more meaningful part of the plot,
Speaker 1: even though I mean they do. He has seen a
Speaker 1: bunch of different times, um, but mostly in most of
Speaker 1: the scenes he's in, he's being bullied by those two
Speaker 1: homophobe kids. It's true. Yeah, I mean, I guess the
Speaker 1: best I could say for that is he is always
Speaker 1: above it and like always has a funnier, better response
Speaker 1: to it. I don't know, I don't know what did
Speaker 1: you make of that character. I thought that it was
Speaker 1: interesting to way because I didn't know any out gay
Speaker 1: kids when I was in high school, so I don't
Speaker 1: really know. I didn't have a barometer for how they
Speaker 1: get treated. It obviously, was like painful to see the kid,
Speaker 1: even though he always had a smart, funny response to it.
Speaker 1: And I like that they empowered the kid in that
Speaker 1: way and gave him his intelligence and his humor. So
Speaker 1: many kids don't have that, And you know, I wondered if, like, um,
Speaker 1: that was the representation of the average kid. Like I
Speaker 1: think it was a good I think it was. It's
Speaker 1: nice to see for gay kids that might be closeted
Speaker 1: to watch this movie and see themselves on screen this
Speaker 1: way and them to be given this this superpower, which
Speaker 1: is his intelligence. But to me, it was like, the
Speaker 1: reality is like this kid might be really depressed, and
Speaker 1: it seems like, um, it almost seemed like when Simon
Speaker 1: turns to Ethan and it's like, my life is over,
Speaker 1: it couldn't be worse, etcetera. He almost really believes that
Speaker 1: his life is worse than this other kid. And I
Speaker 1: don't know, you can't expect too much of this movie
Speaker 1: because it is a movie for teens and it is
Speaker 1: like a big studio film and it's supposed to be
Speaker 1: you know, mainstream, But the reality of being POC and
Speaker 1: gay is like really so much different than it is
Speaker 1: to be someone like Simon, and then also at the
Speaker 1: end of the movie, well, I guess you'll you'll you'll say,
Speaker 1: you'll say who Blue is? But Blue is black in
Speaker 1: the movie. And also just the reality of like there's
Speaker 1: just so many more things that are going to be
Speaker 1: reality that they deal with. And I wondered if the
Speaker 1: movie wasn't The movie was so blissfully diverse, but with
Speaker 1: that kind of diversity comes a whole other series of
Speaker 1: things to deal with, definite, And I wonder if the
Speaker 1: movie was using diversity in a way that was like, look,
Speaker 1: we're a diverse film, and then kind of ignoring a
Speaker 1: lot of the realities. You know, a kid, a kid
Speaker 1: that's a kid that's like Simon, a white gay kid
Speaker 1: who's sixteen, seventeen years old. They might not be at
Speaker 1: at the point where like the person reveals themselves and
Speaker 1: they're a black kid and they he might be in
Speaker 1: the place where he's like, what is my parents going
Speaker 1: to think about this? So it kind of just felt
Speaker 1: like this whole it almost felt dumbed down in a
Speaker 1: way so that it can be woke. So it felt
Speaker 1: like it was it felt like it was raising it's
Speaker 1: i Q. It feels like it's ignoring or not like
Speaker 1: using opportunities to make statements that would have been helpful
Speaker 1: to make it glazes stuff over. Yeah, for sure. And
Speaker 1: that was like the one the one thought I had
Speaker 1: about the Ethan character. And I don't know how spot
Speaker 1: on this is, but just the fact that he only
Speaker 1: becomes meaningfully involved in the plot to sort of explain
Speaker 1: something to Simon, but we don't really get to see
Speaker 1: him be involved in the plot in a meaningful way
Speaker 1: where he's just like is rightfully so saying like this
Speaker 1: is my experience and like you are not the worst
Speaker 1: off of everyone, and kind of like all out and
Speaker 1: take stock of of what you do have going for you,
Speaker 1: because you know, even though it's a difficult experience, you're
Speaker 1: you're very lucky. Which is a great scene, and I'm
Speaker 1: so glad it's there, but it's it almost feels like
Speaker 1: that character is put there and then can't participate in
Speaker 1: any way other than to be that example. And so
Speaker 1: he's there, is an example, and then isn't really allowed
Speaker 1: to participate in the movie, which kind of sucks because
Speaker 1: he's a good character and and there's a lot there
Speaker 1: that you think, you know, there's so many characters in
Speaker 1: this movie that there could have been like real estate
Speaker 1: freed up for him, because like what if Simon was
Speaker 1: friends with the only out kid at school? Like what
Speaker 1: would that be? I don't know, you know. They It's
Speaker 1: almost like I almost feel like saying I also want
Speaker 1: to see like love Ethan with him. But it's like
Speaker 1: you wonder if you wonder if a major studio would
Speaker 1: do that, and the answer is not, I probably would not,
Speaker 1: at least not today, maybe in five years. I mean,
Speaker 1: you're talking about a movie that literally like has Simon
Speaker 1: have like a quote unquote gay day dream and it's
Speaker 1: him walking jauntily to like I will always know not
Speaker 1: those I want to dance with somebody while everyone wears
Speaker 1: like a bright colored T shirt and I'm like summer that, yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought about that, and he's he's like, um, well,
Speaker 1: maybe not this gay. I'm like, dude, this is not gay.
Speaker 1: This is colorful. This is not gay, Like gay is
Speaker 1: everyone in this scene eating each other's ass? Like you like,
Speaker 1: this is not gay? And so I'm kind of thinking, like, wow,
Speaker 1: this movie like it's about homosexuality. No, you know what,
Speaker 1: it's about being gay? It's not about homosexuality. It's not
Speaker 1: about like actually reckoning with your sexuality. It's about being
Speaker 1: different socially, and it's about having secrets. That's what it's about.
Speaker 1: And so like it doesn't make any effort to pretend
Speaker 1: like it's more than that short. You know, it's like PG,
Speaker 1: you know, and like I said, you can't expect too
Speaker 1: much of it, and like, you know, movies about like
Speaker 1: heterosexual teen romance are not about sex, well largely, but um,
Speaker 1: it can't succeed on every level that I think we'd
Speaker 1: like it to, right, I mean, yeah, it's a it's
Speaker 1: a teen movie that adheres to almost every like trope
Speaker 1: of the kind of like a teenager with a secret,
Speaker 1: which is also why I feel like people should go
Speaker 1: easier on it, you know what I mean. It's like like,
Speaker 1: so I'm of two minds of it. It's like I
Speaker 1: can see everything that you're saying is right. Also the
Speaker 1: movie is this like it's not it's it's just not
Speaker 1: gonna Maybe it's not gonna make a social comment. Maybe
Speaker 1: it is just for more people to see themselves on screen.
Speaker 1: And if you are not in that more people, that sucks,
Speaker 1: Like I'm sorry, I hope that for everyone to be represented.
Speaker 1: I personally hope for everyone who represented it's like Hollywood's issue, right,
Speaker 1: And it's not surprising that like for the baseline of
Speaker 1: like the first like wide released movie of this kind,
Speaker 1: for Hollywood to play it safe and be like, well,
Speaker 1: if we're going to do this and take this quote
Speaker 1: unquote risk, then he'd better be like white hot from money,
Speaker 1: and like that does make sense in terms of being
Speaker 1: the baseline of where I mean, Hollywood feels comfortable gambling.
Speaker 1: That's not right and that's hitty and bad and I
Speaker 1: want you know, everyone wants it a love ethan and like,
Speaker 1: but it it doesn't make sense to me that this
Speaker 1: is the first like quote unquote gamble that they would take.
Speaker 1: It makes sense to me on paper, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. I wish that Hollywood would realize that actually
Speaker 1: when people most see themselves is when the stories are
Speaker 1: the most specific. Yeah, Like, for example, something that's a phenomenon,
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was a box office phenomenon,
Speaker 1: but it's a movie that everyone knows is precious. You
Speaker 1: don't get more specific than that. Like, it's just it's
Speaker 1: a very specific story of trauma and struggle, but it
Speaker 1: really connected with a ton of people on many levels
Speaker 1: because it was bold enough to be that specific. So
Speaker 1: by kind of washing this story out and not allowing
Speaker 1: the intelligent conversations that would happen in real life to happen,
Speaker 1: I wonder if it actually could have made more money,
Speaker 1: if if maybe people would have been a little bit
Speaker 1: more passionate about it, because right now, the conversation we're
Speaker 1: largely having about the movie is it's like it was good.
Speaker 1: It could have been better if it felt more real,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, which is like, you wonder
Speaker 1: how necessary that is? Sure, we need to take another
Speaker 1: quick break, but we will be right back. Um, I'll
Speaker 1: just finish up the recap because is I like, I'm
Speaker 1: enjoying this break in format? Yeah? Yeah, we're like, you know,
Speaker 1: it's discussion integrated within the recap, but its spread. We've
Speaker 1: said it Toive. How'sn't it okay? So Simon posts on
Speaker 1: the blog after some of the you know, intensity at
Speaker 1: the school has has died down a bit. Um He
Speaker 1: posts on Creek's secrets and he says, I love Blue,
Speaker 1: whoever you are, I want to meet you. Here's where
Speaker 1: I'm going to be after this. After Cabaret hope to
Speaker 1: see you there because I deserve a love story and
Speaker 1: you deserve a love story, and we all deserve love.
Speaker 1: He makes up with his friends. They all go to
Speaker 1: the school carnival together. He rides the ferris wheel waiting
Speaker 1: for Blue to show up. For a while, it seems
Speaker 1: like he's not going to even Martin. He offers his
Speaker 1: guilt four dollars. He says, I love you. It's me,
Speaker 1: and then we're all in an audience like if it's him,
Speaker 1: I'm going to and then it's not him, and it's
Speaker 1: not Yeah, and he gives the ferris wheel guy. Imagine
Speaker 1: if it was the ferris wheel guy. It's like, I'm
Speaker 1: mind if I said, he gives him like a couple
Speaker 1: of dollars to keep it going for one last time,
Speaker 1: and then who shows up? And who shows up? But
Speaker 1: I enjoyed that twist. I was. I was really happy
Speaker 1: it was him. Yeah, I liked he was my favorite
Speaker 1: candidate the same Yeah, And they kiss and he says,
Speaker 1: are you disappointed it to me? And I was like
Speaker 1: that's such a thing too, was like, you probably the
Speaker 1: kid was probably nervous because what if you can care?
Speaker 1: And he's like, oh god, never mind. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: real Martin Nabby situation. Right, It's worth it for me
Speaker 1: because you get that big moment of everyone cheering um
Speaker 1: while there is a queer kiss happening on screen which
Speaker 1: never happens. But just like logistically, I'm like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: such a big ask to be like, hey, do you
Speaker 1: want to come out the entire student body, like who
Speaker 1: are all going to be gathered? Like that is so
Speaker 1: much pressure and Simon has just gone through this whole
Speaker 1: thing where he was put under too much pressure to
Speaker 1: come out publicly. And I was like, I feel like
Speaker 1: you kind of I don't know. I loved it, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I loved it because it was like I think that
Speaker 1: it was obviously a message. It's like I'm willing to
Speaker 1: be this brave. So I think like his bravery made
Speaker 1: made him want to be brave, you know what I mean. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: they talk about that, you know what I mean. Like
Speaker 1: I kind of loved it and I kind of got it.
Speaker 1: I could see that really happening in real life, like
Speaker 1: if one kid was if I thought of this happening,
Speaker 1: I was like that I can see being a reality.
Speaker 1: Like I was wondering like if I'm in high school,
Speaker 1: and if I was doing this and somebody was like,
Speaker 1: I'm actually gonna do this, like be here, maybe I would,
Speaker 1: Maybe I would. I would love for that. I just
Speaker 1: was I felt I felt concerned for Blue. I hope
Speaker 1: Blue is cool with this. But they did talk about
Speaker 1: making each other brave. They inspired each other, so that
Speaker 1: does make sense. I just got nervous for him when
Speaker 1: that was a big as it's a big ask. But
Speaker 1: they also kept expressing major hesitancy of wanting the world
Speaker 1: to know his identity and everything. Question. Do you think
Speaker 1: that they continued on into college or is this a
Speaker 1: beautiful flash in the pan from senior year. I think
Speaker 1: that they had a really nice rest of the senior year,
Speaker 1: tried to be a long distance for a short time,
Speaker 1: maybe even went too long, like six to eight months,
Speaker 1: and then it got just too hard at college where
Speaker 1: there's just so many other gay, beautiful dudes. But they
Speaker 1: they'll always tell each other in high regard and guess what,
Speaker 1: who knows, maybe they'll even maybe it's not over, maybe
Speaker 1: down the road, but they've got more growing to do.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's one and done for these boys,
Speaker 1: because Simon says he's going to college in Los Angeles
Speaker 1: ever heard of it? I know where are you going?
Speaker 1: I bet? And you know, because like he's going to
Speaker 1: a nice college. He's probably going to US. And he
Speaker 1: does not have student loan debt that simon. I'll tell
Speaker 1: you one thing. It doesn't. He's able to go to
Speaker 1: West Hollywood guildfree ins. He's going to Hamburger, Mary's at Chapel.
Speaker 1: He is fucking you know, actually works at pump No way,
Speaker 1: of course, of course. Anyway, So that's the story of
Speaker 1: the movie. And we covered so much, covered a lot already.
Speaker 1: It's a good, great soundtrack to We didn't say that
Speaker 1: the music is really good. A lot of bleachers. There's
Speaker 1: a lot I like about this movie, and I would
Speaker 1: like to hear your opinions, our listeners opinions on this.
Speaker 1: And we talked a little bit about how the movie
Speaker 1: handles race and kind of glosses over things that like
Speaker 1: a young queer person of color would have to deal
Speaker 1: with it. It introduced is all these characters and then
Speaker 1: kind of glasses over the intricacies of that situation. However,
Speaker 1: it felt to me the movie normalizes people being attracted
Speaker 1: to people of different races and ethnic backgrounds without needing
Speaker 1: to draw a lot of attention to the fact that
Speaker 1: they were attracted, except for that one weird moment where
Speaker 1: Simon is like fumbling with his words. That was the
Speaker 1: one moment where there is any attention drawn to it.
Speaker 1: They're at the Halloween party and he is still trying
Speaker 1: to pass this straight and he's talking to his friend Nick,
Speaker 1: and Nick's like, Oh, it would be so hot, and
Speaker 1: Simon's like, yeah, she's hot, but she's not really my type,
Speaker 1: not because she's black. I love black women, but I
Speaker 1: don't have a thing for black women. I just love
Speaker 1: all women. So he's like, it's like a bad joke.
Speaker 1: It seems like a bad attempt at humor, Like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm not fetishiz right, but also not not because it's needless. Yeh, needless.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say
Speaker 1: that it kind of worked for me because he's in
Speaker 1: a stressful situation where he's like trying to pass so
Speaker 1: I kind of got that he was like stumbling over
Speaker 1: his Yeah, and a lot is that Abby's expense, And
Speaker 1: it's it's tricky because it's like you know that ultimately
Speaker 1: this is Martin's fault for being the worst most boat
Speaker 1: kid of all time. Like he's just like a bore
Speaker 1: at poster come to life. But but it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: Simon does sell Abby up the river for almost I
Speaker 1: mean for what we have to think is the majority
Speaker 1: of their friendship because I haven't even known each other
Speaker 1: this lot. Like it's just I mean, I'm glad that
Speaker 1: she stands up to him, she of all people, should have,
Speaker 1: but I don't know, yeah, she was the only one
Speaker 1: who I felt like, you got a real bone to
Speaker 1: pick with him here, Yeah, you know Nick that was
Speaker 1: just like a like cock block at best, Like Nick
Speaker 1: was not greatly Like there was no reason for Nick
Speaker 1: to turn his back on his lifelong best friend out
Speaker 1: of nowhere. Nor was there for Leah really. I mean,
Speaker 1: although it's like, okay, she's disappointed, but again it's like
Speaker 1: she was at best inconvenience for he said like the
Speaker 1: space of a week. It must be hard to hear
Speaker 1: that the kid that you're in love with not only
Speaker 1: doesn't like you, but like it's you know, different than
Speaker 1: you've ever thought. And then there's got to be a
Speaker 1: lot of emotions that go through your mind there. But
Speaker 1: but it's not abandonment. This is a critical time, especially
Speaker 1: with what yeah, yeah, that could be and and they do.
Speaker 1: I like that she is the first to forgive him
Speaker 1: at least, and it makes sense to me that she
Speaker 1: would be the first person to be like, no, I
Speaker 1: love you, accept you and all that, because he's like
Speaker 1: chasing her when she's like walking her dog or something,
Speaker 1: which is I don't know. I like that scene, the
Speaker 1: reconciliations to me, at least, compared to the teen high
Speaker 1: school movies that were a thing when I was coming
Speaker 1: of age of like all those like late nineties like
Speaker 1: She's All that, Ten Things I Hate About You, Those
Speaker 1: were like the things I was watching, And none of
Speaker 1: those felt like real high school experiences or like anything
Speaker 1: that anyone was dealing with or going through because they
Speaker 1: were all based on these like crazy bets that get
Speaker 1: way out of hand and it I never saw anything
Speaker 1: like that in my high school experience. This movie felt
Speaker 1: way more real of a depiction of the high school
Speaker 1: experience than those. At least I bought it as a
Speaker 1: high school movie. Even though the kids were looking what
Speaker 1: they looked like, I bought it. I mean, it's like
Speaker 1: where everyone's gonna be five, which is almost always going
Speaker 1: to be true. It felt pretty I mean I also,
Speaker 1: it's like none of us have been in high school
Speaker 1: for a while, so I'm like, I don't know if
Speaker 1: this is what high school looks like. Like they had
Speaker 1: phones seems realistic to me, Like that was my bar
Speaker 1: for like does this make sense? I'm like, yeah, everyone's
Speaker 1: got fun, so clearly it's a high school. Another moment
Speaker 1: I liked, and I think this is part of why
Speaker 1: I think this movie feels a lot more realistic than
Speaker 1: a lot of it's like Teen Predecessors, is that the
Speaker 1: big romantic gesture that Martin tries to do is like
Speaker 1: very similar to the thing that we see in like
Speaker 1: Ten Things. Yeah, he should not of dancing across the
Speaker 1: bleachers shouldn't work in that movie, though, does work to
Speaker 1: win that character back over. So I like that we
Speaker 1: see it not working. I'm imposing I'm imposing a moratorium
Speaker 1: on big gestures. They're not done forever, but I just
Speaker 1: need I just need a break. Sure, they're very aggressive,
Speaker 1: they're big, Yeah they're huge. But I hate about them
Speaker 1: is they're too big, and I crumble under pressure daily,
Speaker 1: so it's putting a lot of pressure on the subject.
Speaker 1: It's crazy. It's like because then it's like you could
Speaker 1: do the most, like while you're performing this big thing
Speaker 1: in the football game, and then literally all people will
Speaker 1: remember is what the other person did to respond to him.
Speaker 1: That's what it's all out to. So it's really like
Speaker 1: you're defining their legacy in this moment. And I thought
Speaker 1: it was great that Abby was honest with him without
Speaker 1: you know, being like, you know, which would have been
Speaker 1: a worst choice for that. It's so that whole thing
Speaker 1: made me think, and I'm like, this is this is
Speaker 1: probably about gender in some way where I've had multiple
Speaker 1: conversations with like my friends from high school or my
Speaker 1: friends from when I was younger that like, if something
Speaker 1: like that ever happened, or if someone ever asked you
Speaker 1: to marry them at a sports game, that we would
Speaker 1: say yes so as not to humiliate them and then
Speaker 1: later tell them, actually, I can't do that. That's what
Speaker 1: I was protective. Yeah, I mean that was like, I
Speaker 1: don't know why I've had this. Probably every time I
Speaker 1: see a gesture like this, or you're out of sports
Speaker 1: game and it happened, You're like, even if I knew
Speaker 1: the answer is no, I would say yes to protect
Speaker 1: his feelings and then later be like, don't do big gestures. Literally,
Speaker 1: what would actually happen if this were to happen in
Speaker 1: high school is everyone in there would be losing their
Speaker 1: ship laughing, and then the girl would probably be like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, stop and she probably would like run out,
Speaker 1: like at least this is the way it would happen
Speaker 1: in my high school, so you would run away. But
Speaker 1: my assessment of this moment is kids are not this mature,
Speaker 1: Like she's not just going to measurably sit there and
Speaker 1: be like, I'm so sorry, but I just don't think
Speaker 1: of you like this, but I would like to be friends.
Speaker 1: Like no, no one's doing And that's the moment everyone's like,
Speaker 1: she's twenty seven, Oh my god, why is she here?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like teens this day might
Speaker 1: might have done that. I don't know. It is okay
Speaker 1: for me. I thought it was a good aspirational scene
Speaker 1: of like, okay, best case scenario for everyone involved. That
Speaker 1: is a cool way to handle it. But they sort
Speaker 1: of lightly touch on how Martin becomes target of bullying
Speaker 1: after that, and there's just like a bunch of shitty
Speaker 1: memes about like shut down or like whatever. But I
Speaker 1: think I think realistically Abby would also be the target
Speaker 1: of some harassment based on that of like you fucking
Speaker 1: humiliated him, which is I think we're that whole mentality
Speaker 1: of like I would say yes even if that's not
Speaker 1: how I felt comes from of like you shouldn't humiliate
Speaker 1: someone in public, even if they're putting you on the
Speaker 1: spot by Yeah. Here's a few other scenes that I
Speaker 1: really liked the hetero coming out montage where Simon's talking
Speaker 1: about like why is the onus on queer people to
Speaker 1: have to come out? Like why can't straight people like
Speaker 1: you know this unfair societal expectation that's set up in
Speaker 1: some great parent acting in that in that a little bit,
Speaker 1: and then we already touched on this a little bit,
Speaker 1: but the scene where miss Albright is like yelling at
Speaker 1: the homophobic bully kids, that just energized to me for
Speaker 1: that was that was necessary. We love that character. And
Speaker 1: then she went all the way and yes, into infamy.
Speaker 1: And then I also really liked the scene where Simon
Speaker 1: yells at Martin for outing him because he's saying stuff
Speaker 1: like you took everything away from me in terms of
Speaker 1: like I get to Yeah, it's like I get to
Speaker 1: this should have been on my terms, how I do it,
Speaker 1: when I do it, to whom I do it, etcetera,
Speaker 1: And you took that away from me. And Martin, I
Speaker 1: mean that character is really well written. I think we
Speaker 1: all hate him rightfully so, but but I was just like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, he's going to log into the in
Speaker 1: cell board and then we're fucking screwed. Martin is the
Speaker 1: type in cells have bora posters. It's proof, It's just
Speaker 1: proof positive. I also like a large part of the
Speaker 1: movie is seeing a lot of like male vulnerable. Okay,
Speaker 1: so here's the thing. There's there's not that much to
Speaker 1: talk about in terms of the representation of women in
Speaker 1: this movie, which makes sense because it's a movie about
Speaker 1: a gay it's not called Love Alexis Rebecca Simon, So
Speaker 1: there's not a whole lot for us to talk about
Speaker 1: in those terms. But the things that I think are
Speaker 1: worth talking about are like the idea of masculinity, and
Speaker 1: you know it does right, I am not sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's so weird because I'm so taken in by this
Speaker 1: movie that I wasn't paying as close attention that they
Speaker 1: should have it did call attention to the fact, I'm like,
Speaker 1: why aren't Leah and Abbey remotely friends for people who
Speaker 1: seem to be together of the time, they don't speak,
Speaker 1: we don't know. That was like one thing that bothered
Speaker 1: me about Abby's character in the way it was written
Speaker 1: was that as much as we know she's like, well rounded,
Speaker 1: she's a great person and also hot, she they like
Speaker 1: they do sort of like guys gal her a little
Speaker 1: bit because she has no female friends that we see.
Speaker 1: Even though she's around, She and Lea around or anything,
Speaker 1: hardly see them interact. Yes, yeah, which I know is like,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's not going to happen in this movie.
Speaker 1: It's not their movie. But I mean it was just
Speaker 1: weird a little bit more of them interacting. Not the
Speaker 1: worst thing to ever happen, but real quick about like
Speaker 1: male vulnerability that we see which we often don't see
Speaker 1: in most movies. Well, first of all, like Simon, the
Speaker 1: whole story revolves around him not being secure enough in
Speaker 1: his sexual identity to come out. We see like Nick
Speaker 1: being insecure about his like sexual inexperience. He's like, you know,
Speaker 1: I've only had sex with one time, right, Things were
Speaker 1: slipper United didn't put my dick in the right place,
Speaker 1: and I'm insecure, but it was cute. I really liked that.
Speaker 1: And then here's something that rubbed me the wrong way
Speaker 1: a little bit where Martin, as he's seeking help from Simon,
Speaker 1: say something like, I don't want your help changing me.
Speaker 1: I want your help getting Abby to like me for me,
Speaker 1: which I think is an important thing to happen, but
Speaker 1: I hate that it comes from this character who were
Speaker 1: meant to hate and who is wrong every other time
Speaker 1: in the movie. I wish we had seen It's almost
Speaker 1: like the movie didn't decide if who that kid really was,
Speaker 1: Like was he just annoying and like he's a good
Speaker 1: person at heart but he's annoying, or is he like
Speaker 1: chaotic evil He's like a vicious blackmailer who is blackmailing
Speaker 1: and you're supposed to feel bad for him. At certain
Speaker 1: points where it does feel a little I don't know
Speaker 1: this whole movie, and it's like it is what it is,
Speaker 1: kind of like what you're saying, but there are elements
Speaker 1: of it. I'm like, this is very focused groups to
Speaker 1: the point where I'm like, I'm not sure exactly who
Speaker 1: you're supposed to be that's what it is. It just
Speaker 1: feels like it was trying to be too many things
Speaker 1: for two different people, and it's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe the villain could have just been a villain, Like
Speaker 1: that's fine, he's irridamable, great, but like, don't make him
Speaker 1: this sympathetic, like, oh, he didn't mean to out you
Speaker 1: and funk your life up. It's like, No, the whole
Speaker 1: four dollars thing at the end, I'm like, that's not
Speaker 1: a redemption. He doesn't need sounds horrible, Like if you
Speaker 1: want to make arrangements for Butt six, you know emails
Speaker 1: like yeah, God, does anyone have any other thoughts about
Speaker 1: the movie? I would say that I'm going to shout
Speaker 1: out the soundtrack again. The sounds gave me everything I love.
Speaker 1: It's like late eighties early nineties throwbacks down. I love
Speaker 1: that song wild Heart. I love that song Strawberries and
Speaker 1: Cigarettes that Troy Sevan does on the soundtrack. It's really good.
Speaker 1: It's very evocative. It seems like they're almost like referencing
Speaker 1: John Hughes. But yeah, by doing that a brave observation
Speaker 1: by me, Jamie that I'm sure. And it was one
Speaker 1: of those movies where it was like maybe made maybe
Speaker 1: twice as good of a movie as that actually is.
Speaker 1: With the music. Oh yeah, I thought it actually like
Speaker 1: really served like an atmospheric purpose, which is what it
Speaker 1: should do. Wow. I think Alfred Willina could have played Simon. Sure, Honestly,
Speaker 1: I think they could really strategy make a sixteen year
Speaker 1: old man play a queer teenager. Now that his progress,
Speaker 1: it's so funny to even think about Simon as being
Speaker 1: queer because he's just so straight the whole time. Well okay,
Speaker 1: stylized completely straight. That is one thing I wanted to
Speaker 1: touch on because we talked a little bit about this.
Speaker 1: Another criticism around this, Yeah, well he's just like, you know,
Speaker 1: he's the definition of walking the world and with complete privilege.
Speaker 1: I mean, he doesn't even need to code switch. That's
Speaker 1: just who is who he is, like to play Devil's advocate.
Speaker 1: And again I'm coming from a place of not being
Speaker 1: a gay man. Uh, it needed to be said, Caitlin.
Speaker 1: I know that people have been wondering that I've been
Speaker 1: am I blue? Was I blue? I don't know? Maybe
Speaker 1: I anyway, So we talked a little bit about this
Speaker 1: on their recent DEBS episode. But in that episode, I
Speaker 1: appreciated that because any time like a lesbian is portrayed
Speaker 1: in a mainstream movie, usually it is someone who presents
Speaker 1: as very butch. You know, they're they're made to adhere
Speaker 1: to these like rigid stereotypes. And similarly, when gay men
Speaker 1: are portrayed in mainstream movies, they're usually presented in such
Speaker 1: a way that they're very flamboyant, because I think Hollywood's like, well,
Speaker 1: how will anyone know they're gay unless we make them
Speaker 1: so flamboyant. Here's what I would say about it. It's like,
Speaker 1: you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.
Speaker 1: Because if you depict the kid as being more gay
Speaker 1: acting quote unquote right, then you get a bunch of
Speaker 1: people that are like, well, there we are again depicted
Speaker 1: as being this way. And then if you depict the
Speaker 1: kids being very straight acting, especially when he's played by
Speaker 1: a straight actor in real life, you get this thing
Speaker 1: of like that feels like a raiser. But there are
Speaker 1: tons of gay men that act like simon, lots of
Speaker 1: gay men I wore masculine. It's hard to find a balance,
Speaker 1: and I think it speaks to it speaks less to
Speaker 1: what these individual films are doing, and more to the
Speaker 1: fact that there just isn't and hasn't ever been enough
Speaker 1: representation period because every single time one character comes out,
Speaker 1: we put all the weight in the world on it. Like,
Speaker 1: for example, when I was growing up and there was
Speaker 1: Will and Grace, it was like, are you a Will
Speaker 1: or a Jack? And we didn't know what it was
Speaker 1: like to be anything else, So it was either you
Speaker 1: are really straight, acting to where you would never know
Speaker 1: and you even even the people that you date are
Speaker 1: like really even more straight acting like cops. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you remember Will's boyfriend played by Bobby kind
Speaker 1: of Ali, who was like this like super butch cop
Speaker 1: or your Jack, who essentially is a like a joke,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like he was abroad sweeping stereotype.
Speaker 1: So I think as a result of that, it's hard
Speaker 1: to gauge like whether or not this movie made a
Speaker 1: mistake or not, because like there just isn't enough representation,
Speaker 1: and you can't say that people aren't out there and
Speaker 1: are gay and they act like that, because they do.
Speaker 1: There's a whole spectrum as it turns out. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I think, like this is weird to say, but like
Speaker 1: as someone who sort of identifies as being somewhere in
Speaker 1: the middle. When I want to turn it on, I
Speaker 1: can be very flamboyant, and then the way I'm speaking
Speaker 1: to you guys right now, you know, I don't know
Speaker 1: if someone would quote unquote no, it's just hard because
Speaker 1: like we can't see ourselves. All we see are like
Speaker 1: each other, and then depictions of ourselves in media, and
Speaker 1: we're just not up there that much. So I think,
Speaker 1: like I don't necessarily have too much of a problem
Speaker 1: with with this particular movie in that regard. Maybe maybe
Speaker 1: maybe there's something to the fact that they have a
Speaker 1: straight actor playing him. Yes, which is like a case
Speaker 1: by case it always feels tough. Yeah, I was gonna
Speaker 1: ask how you felt about well, because I'll say this, like,
Speaker 1: for example, for the auditions that I go on, it's
Speaker 1: hard because a lot of the characters are just like stereotypes,
Speaker 1: like and you can feel them trying on the page
Speaker 1: to not make it like that, like in the breakdown,
Speaker 1: it won't be like gay and he knows it. You know,
Speaker 1: he wears a fucking crazy scarf. He loves to wave
Speaker 1: his finger. It's not like that. But it's like whenever
Speaker 1: anyone writes girl comma in any line, it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you try too hard, you know what I mean. But
Speaker 1: it's at least interesting and at least good to see
Speaker 1: them trying. But I don't think we're ever going to
Speaker 1: get to the point where we're where we're not precious
Speaker 1: about each and every character depiction up there until we
Speaker 1: see more. And unfortunately, like I'm not being offered to
Speaker 1: play a lot of straight parts, and I don't know
Speaker 1: a lot of gay actors that are out there openly
Speaker 1: gay who are just routinely booking straight roles. So when
Speaker 1: it feels like the vice versa is true, often it's
Speaker 1: frustrating because there's tons of gay actors out there that
Speaker 1: are just as talented as these straight guys. And yet
Speaker 1: Heath Ledger and Jake Jillen Hall, allegedly straight actors um
Speaker 1: performing and broke Back Mountain like the seminal gay romance
Speaker 1: of our time, and then to see that continue to
Speaker 1: do that as an eighteen and like Love Simon is
Speaker 1: like the gay mainstream movie and Nick Robinson is playing
Speaker 1: it and he's straight. I'm not saying they all didn't
Speaker 1: do a great job. It's just about representation. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: and the fact that I mean this, I believe that
Speaker 1: this was adapted by and originally written by, like it
Speaker 1: was written by top to bottom straight people. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: director Greg Berlante is gay, so there's that. But like
Speaker 1: you said with the focus group comment, you know this
Speaker 1: was filtered through a straight line that this is essentially
Speaker 1: the Abbey of like of like you know, it's like
Speaker 1: a gay thing for straight people. Um, so it just
Speaker 1: feels like that's even named abbey. I was surprised to
Speaker 1: learn the novel that this movie is based on was
Speaker 1: written by a woman I thought for sure a gay man,
Speaker 1: but it was written by a straight lady, which is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean with with stories like that, it's so hard
Speaker 1: to find a story, and I think it does speak
Speaker 1: to like the amount of pressure that is put on
Speaker 1: queer stories because there's just not enough of them. But
Speaker 1: it's like, I feel like you can always trace it
Speaker 1: back to a pretty heteronormative source, which is just when
Speaker 1: you actually lived that experience. Okay, So I really very
Speaker 1: closely almost went through this exact experience, like I wasn't
Speaker 1: out it in high school. But like the way that
Speaker 1: he goes about his life the interest he like claims
Speaker 1: to have, Like I didn't not see myself in it,
Speaker 1: and so that's why I was a little bit sensitive
Speaker 1: to the criticism. But yet now having like time with
Speaker 1: the movie, I can see the criticism you wish because
Speaker 1: it really got it, really was there. You wish it
Speaker 1: had really gotten it, you know what I mean. And
Speaker 1: I do think with like maybe three or four more
Speaker 1: like gay creatives in high positions there, or like maybe
Speaker 1: even a gay actor, like just a suggestion could have
Speaker 1: been made of like I feel like he's too upset here,
Speaker 1: or he's not upset enough here, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like there was some specific emotional movement moments where I
Speaker 1: was like watching him act the situation and I was like,
Speaker 1: it's so specifically something else, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: just as an actor watching and I was like, this
Speaker 1: is all on the page, but you're not getting it
Speaker 1: right now, or just like or like you're getting it
Speaker 1: right now, but the script isn't allowing you to say
Speaker 1: what it really is. Like there was a couple of
Speaker 1: times where it all came together, like him saying like
Speaker 1: this was my thing to do and you took that
Speaker 1: from me. That's really good, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: That was like right there, But then there was like
Speaker 1: moments like with the dad and the mom where I
Speaker 1: just felt like more emotional response was needed, or just
Speaker 1: like little tiny things like where it just didn't feel
Speaker 1: measured in the right way, where I was like, chemically,
Speaker 1: I think that this actor just maybe is just not
Speaker 1: capable of acting this scenario. But I found him very
Speaker 1: appealing overall. So focus group wise, for everyone, the movie
Speaker 1: works for me who went to the specific experience and
Speaker 1: it is a specific experience and should be treated as such.
Speaker 1: I could just see the little things that weren't right,
Speaker 1: So so it's like, yes, I'm I happy the movie exists.
Speaker 1: Is it like a fucking Grand Slam home run to me? No,
Speaker 1: because it wasn't as specific as it should have been,
Speaker 1: which is the point I made before about like that's
Speaker 1: when you really get at the heart of these things
Speaker 1: and move people, is when you actually get specific. Because
Speaker 1: I was more moved by Precious than I was by
Speaker 1: Love Simon, and I didn't I I'm not. I didn't
Speaker 1: go through that, you know what I mean. But I
Speaker 1: can appreciate the specificity and the attention to detail that
Speaker 1: goes into something like that, whereas this was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you made you made a movie that tried to make
Speaker 1: a lot of money and make straight people happy and
Speaker 1: make them feel good for seeing it, which I am
Speaker 1: guilty of, but but you should feel like that. It
Speaker 1: should make people feel good. Yeah, I mean, it's there's
Speaker 1: so many double I don't know. Yeah, with with this, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a tough one. And it all comes down to,
Speaker 1: like I said before, they're just not being enough. So
Speaker 1: this is the first one, and I'm happy it was
Speaker 1: the first one, but because you know what, you get
Speaker 1: into like a lot of the nitty gritty about like
Speaker 1: what actually goes down in Ethan Ethan's life, and then
Speaker 1: it is a sad movie, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: But I do think like this movie opens the door
Speaker 1: up to this conversation, and therefore, because this conversation exists,
Speaker 1: that movie is more likely to be seen. And I
Speaker 1: do think our I should be open to the reality
Speaker 1: of what it's like to be a queer person of color.
Speaker 1: I don't think it is like and so you know,
Speaker 1: it's even been eye opening for me in the last
Speaker 1: few years, Like in my late twenties, I'm much much
Speaker 1: closer with my close friends that are gay and also
Speaker 1: people of color, and it's just like, you know, the
Speaker 1: sexual realities of that, the romantic realities of that, the
Speaker 1: social realities of that, the the realities of that in
Speaker 1: terms of online dating, in terms of useach of the apps,
Speaker 1: it's like very dark and I we haven't even touched
Speaker 1: on it. My best friend is a gay man. Brag
Speaker 1: is no, he just bought a house. He purchased with
Speaker 1: the house um. But when he was single and on Grinder,
Speaker 1: he would show me all these profiles of white guys
Speaker 1: being like no blacks, no fats, no Asians, is the
Speaker 1: popular mask only, like all that kind of stuff, And
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, there's still a lot of discrimination
Speaker 1: within a community that is marginalized and being repressed. So
Speaker 1: that that's the disease amongst especially white gaze is you know,
Speaker 1: they have this narrative in their heads. We have this
Speaker 1: narrative in our heads of we've been oppressed. We think
Speaker 1: it might be as painful or equal to anyone else
Speaker 1: who's been oppressed. And then when we do overcome that
Speaker 1: quote unquote oppression um, which most of us do in
Speaker 1: our teens or early twenties, we then feel entitled to saying, well,
Speaker 1: I've been through enough, now I'm allowed to have my
Speaker 1: quote unquote preferences. And so a lot of people aren't
Speaker 1: ready to reckon with the fact that, like they have
Speaker 1: racism in them just because you've been oppressed in terms
Speaker 1: of a society like that that you're a sexual minority
Speaker 1: or your your sexual preferences are keep you in the minority.
Speaker 1: Like they think the they're like better than racism, they
Speaker 1: think that they're immune to it. Yeah, it festers, and
Speaker 1: of course, I mean we like with white feminism, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like it just doesn't include everyone.
Speaker 1: And so then you're on these apps and you think
Speaker 1: to yourself, like we should be the last people where
Speaker 1: this is like thriving. But like you can walk in
Speaker 1: the streets and not hear something racist. If you go
Speaker 1: on these apps, you will see something racist, you will,
Speaker 1: I mean. And then there's all the like transphobia within
Speaker 1: the queer community. You know, there's all kinds of like
Speaker 1: you know, discrimination within these communities. And it feels like
Speaker 1: we're making strides, feels like things are getting a little better.
Speaker 1: But and I think that the movie Existing is a
Speaker 1: good thing because I think ultimately like, and I know
Speaker 1: that's not even what we're debating, but um, like, it
Speaker 1: has been a debate, like amongst gay friends of mine
Speaker 1: who really don't like the movie, because I think there's
Speaker 1: a mentality that this movie like purports to represent more
Speaker 1: people than it does, and I don't think that's true.
Speaker 1: I think that this movie is telling a story about
Speaker 1: a kid coming to terms with the sexuality. Um But,
Speaker 1: like I said, because it's the only one, we put
Speaker 1: all this weight on it. And I think that because
Speaker 1: this movie exists, we're able to have these conversations about
Speaker 1: what it gets right about what it doesn't. And that's
Speaker 1: film criticism, which is for many people what advances the
Speaker 1: cinematic form anyway. So I've seen the conversation truly, especially
Speaker 1: in this room. Yes we're such heroes, but it's it's
Speaker 1: been very interesting to see the conversation about this movie.
Speaker 1: Like I had. I talked with someone one time I
Speaker 1: really didn't like this criticism of it, but he said
Speaker 1: that he felt that the Natasha Rothwell character was a
Speaker 1: magical Negro and I was like, that's a really interesting,
Speaker 1: weird to say, and he was like, the movie uses
Speaker 1: her to like save the day and it's not fair.
Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, but what are you saying,
Speaker 1: like if that part was played by Chelsea Handler? Would
Speaker 1: would would it make it like you could not change
Speaker 1: the script, and would it make the movie stronger? And
Speaker 1: so now, and that's when I think there was a
Speaker 1: real fever picture on this movie where in the gay
Speaker 1: community conversations like this we're happening, that we're truly picking
Speaker 1: it apart bit by bit, And I think that is
Speaker 1: not helpful, you know what I mean? Because I think
Speaker 1: that's Hasha Rothwell is amazing in the movie, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure she feels fine being in it. I'm sure she
Speaker 1: doesn't feel utilized in that way. We just want her
Speaker 1: to get paid as much as humanly possible. I was
Speaker 1: just like, I was just like, it's odd to me
Speaker 1: to like use that criticism against this movie, but that's
Speaker 1: what was happening, and that's what happens. I think when
Speaker 1: there's just not enough representation, that's all there to talk about,
Speaker 1: then we'll talk about it. I mean, the thesis of
Speaker 1: this discussion and our whole podcast is we need more
Speaker 1: and better representation. We okay, let's okay, bachtel test. I
Speaker 1: think there are a few scenes that come close. I
Speaker 1: tried to document all of them, but I think I
Speaker 1: might have missed some. But like, there's a scene where
Speaker 1: the mom is like, let's watch the affair, and then
Speaker 1: Simon says, we can't watch the affair as a family,
Speaker 1: and the mom says why not, and then the sister
Speaker 1: chimes in, Norah, we know her name, she says, because
Speaker 1: it's all about sex, and then mom says, god forbid.
Speaker 1: We see people make love. So it's like a conversation
Speaker 1: where men are present and then also contributing to the conversation.
Speaker 1: But there's like a two line exchange where just women
Speaker 1: are tugging yeah, and they need to be alone, not
Speaker 1: nerve version of it. All these different caveats, I feel
Speaker 1: like maybe yeah, I feel I'm I'm not so quick
Speaker 1: to say this one counts. And it's also based on yeah,
Speaker 1: it's also based on our response Simon has to it
Speaker 1: and they're talking about head roast sex, right, so probably not.
Speaker 1: There is a scene where Abby says I just found
Speaker 1: a press on nail in my salad, and then Abby
Speaker 1: and Leah at the same time say Debbie. They're accusing
Speaker 1: Debbie of her nails. I'm so sick of these passes.
Speaker 1: I think I don't know how to just be like,
Speaker 1: who is that fucking judge who was like, I can't
Speaker 1: define porn, but I know it when I see it.
Speaker 1: That's how I feel about the Betel Test at this point.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm no more of these bullshit passes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then there is a scene where Leah says, thanks
Speaker 1: for letting me stay over. Simon's mom says, you've been
Speaker 1: staying over for ten years. You don't have to thank us,
Speaker 1: and then Leah says, oh, yeah, that's so that as
Speaker 1: close as it comes insightful, know, I know, I know,
Speaker 1: I'm surprised women don't interact more in this. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I'm surprised. I guess based on how many
Speaker 1: female characters there are, we would have a few more
Speaker 1: interactions betwe mean women, but we only have like these
Speaker 1: and then a couple that don't pass the test. And
Speaker 1: I guess that's not any objective of the movie. But
Speaker 1: there are always like opportunities to make this, and I
Speaker 1: feel like Leah and Abbey are the biggest missed opportunity there.
Speaker 1: They're around each other the whole time. Yeah, and friends
Speaker 1: and allegedly. And also I'm realizing right now that the
Speaker 1: mom and Leah discussing her staying over that can't pass
Speaker 1: the Bechtel test because they're talking about the house and
Speaker 1: that house identifies as a male. I think it's very big.
Speaker 1: It's making itself known, and it's like taking up a
Speaker 1: lot of up a lot of space. Like and also
Speaker 1: the subtext is like, thanks for letting me stay over
Speaker 1: with Simon, which also why was that allowed? I'm like,
Speaker 1: I wish my mom when I was seventeen playing while
Speaker 1: they were in that room. Is there a boat in
Speaker 1: the body? I'm on a week for I was like, fine,
Speaker 1: want to let me know. I was like, this is
Speaker 1: like a sex see adults romantic song. Very the whole
Speaker 1: film was horny, and I like that about it. Oh yes,
Speaker 1: I'm fully I think it would have may be more
Speaker 1: uncomfortable if the actors were underage, but they were so
Speaker 1: clearly forty years old. I'm like, this is great. There, No,
Speaker 1: the younger sister was older than they actually were, like
Speaker 1: drama school together. Yeah, she she's in the affair Like
Speaker 1: that was an inside joke. Oh gosh, okay, so let's
Speaker 1: write the movie on our nipple scale zero to five
Speaker 1: nipples based on its portrayal of women. Oh, that's true,
Speaker 1: this is true. It's not fair for this right because
Speaker 1: I will. I would give it a five though, would you? Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I think that the female characters that presents are
Speaker 1: all three dimensional, I would agree with that, I do,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? They're not the focus. They're
Speaker 1: not driving the story, or at least if they are,
Speaker 1: it's passively because it's Martin like black Aileen Simon because
Speaker 1: he wants to funck Abby. So they're not necessarily very
Speaker 1: active characters. But the way they're written, the way they're presented,
Speaker 1: I do feel like they're dynamic, interesting, multidimensional characters. Yeah.
Speaker 1: They in terms of just being in a script and
Speaker 1: being supporting characters. They're written well and I helped that
Speaker 1: the story. And they're not functional in a way that
Speaker 1: it feels like we're losing their integrity as characters, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. The mom is like progressive and
Speaker 1: lovely and a good mom, you know, but she's also
Speaker 1: interested in other things besides being a mom, which is
Speaker 1: something we don't see in a lot of these movies.
Speaker 1: And it's so rare that we know what the mom's
Speaker 1: job is, and we don't know what the dad's job is.
Speaker 1: That never happens, and it seems like, I mean, based
Speaker 1: on that unless it was like a cut scene, it
Speaker 1: seems like she's the breadwinner of the family, which is cool.
Speaker 1: And also, you know the character of Abby like she
Speaker 1: does she stays true to herself the whole time, Like
Speaker 1: she doesn't just allow herself to be talked about or
Speaker 1: like dealt if by the men. She is truthful to herself.
Speaker 1: You know, Leah the character, she says what she feels
Speaker 1: and it's well performed and you get the sense that
Speaker 1: she'll go on to be a dynamic person. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: there was I the word I think about. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like Anne, it's kind of rare that you know
Speaker 1: Simon's two female friends better than you know Nick. I
Speaker 1: know almost nothing about Nick. He plays soccer, he had
Speaker 1: sex ones, like that's all we know about him. Really, um,
Speaker 1: where you do have like full scenes where I appreciated
Speaker 1: the extra work going into Abby's character of like, Okay,
Speaker 1: she's new, she's from a lower class background. We know
Speaker 1: she has like her dad is an alcohol like these
Speaker 1: are all things I think fifteen years ago we would
Speaker 1: never find out about those characters. And the same with Leah,
Speaker 1: of you know, I mean, I can strongly identify with
Speaker 1: her being the long suffering, being in love with her
Speaker 1: gay best friend and just being like no, but like
Speaker 1: it's played responsibly. I'm glad that. I mean. The only
Speaker 1: thing that made me feel weird is Leah turning her
Speaker 1: back on Simon in his moment of utmost need. That
Speaker 1: was very put off by. But I'm glad that Abby.
Speaker 1: I mean, Abby I think is like the best female
Speaker 1: character in the story because she she is always like
Speaker 1: almost to a point where it's unrealistic for a teenager
Speaker 1: to be so like mature and always knows the right
Speaker 1: thing to do. Um. But it's I mean, it's like
Speaker 1: if we're making a movie to set an example for teenagers,
Speaker 1: which in theory this movie would be, then she's great
Speaker 1: and I think it works works well, you know, and
Speaker 1: and good for the little girl. She got a queens
Speaker 1: and art. Yeah, incredible. I hope she gets better at cooking,
Speaker 1: because women be cooking women. But to me that there's
Speaker 1: enough of like yeah, yeah, I I think I'm going
Speaker 1: to give it. I'm not prepared to give it a five.
Speaker 1: I think I'm going to give it maybe a three
Speaker 1: and a half because you, well, we we should, we
Speaker 1: should ask that question more. Yeah, we'll be because we
Speaker 1: in our ratings we also take into account like the
Speaker 1: representation of people of color, of queer people, of other
Speaker 1: marginalized groups of which we almost never see on screen.
Speaker 1: But because as we've talked about, like there's an introduction
Speaker 1: of at least two queer people who are also people
Speaker 1: of color, and the movie glossing over their experience, their
Speaker 1: specific experience, I feel like that could have been I mean,
Speaker 1: the movie probably should have been like Love Bram or
Speaker 1: Love Ethan, Like I mean, I think maybe we'll get
Speaker 1: there someday, but get that, you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 1: so it will get that we're slowly progressing is a
Speaker 1: people in a culture and in the film industry. But um,
Speaker 1: and then, I don't know, this is tricky just because
Speaker 1: like women aren't the focus. It's a tricky movie too.
Speaker 1: But if you're going to have a movie that where
Speaker 1: women aren't the focus, great that it's a queer male
Speaker 1: love story, Like that's what that best I could hope for.
Speaker 1: I think I'm going to go for on it. But
Speaker 1: I mean the only it's weird though, because it's like
Speaker 1: my My only criticism of the female characters is I
Speaker 1: feel the same way about the male characters is that
Speaker 1: they just feel a little bit uncanny Valley overly workshopped
Speaker 1: in certain places. But I mean, it's again, it's just
Speaker 1: like it's a movie for young people, and so I
Speaker 1: think it can be almost dangerous to like show a
Speaker 1: young female character being completely off the rails if there's
Speaker 1: not the real estate in that movie to address it.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, I thought, I thought that the
Speaker 1: women we see are great. Yeah, well, Matt, thank you
Speaker 1: so thank you so much for guys for having brilliant
Speaker 1: You know, we lifted the band for good reason, but
Speaker 1: it's back on. But Aristotle still shout out to Aristotle,
Speaker 1: shout out. What would you like to plug? Where can
Speaker 1: people find you online? You guys can follow me at
Speaker 1: Matt Rogers though it's Matt Rogers th h O. Or
Speaker 1: you can listen or and in addition to that, you
Speaker 1: can listen to my podcast Last Culture Asta with Bowen
Speaker 1: Yang where we discuss pop culture and wow, I've heard
Speaker 1: of it, talk about it. It's one of my favorites.
Speaker 1: Thank you. You can follow us at pectel cast on
Speaker 1: the platforms, all the platforms. You can join our Patreon
Speaker 1: five bucks a month to extra episodes a month. Kind
Speaker 1: of incredible. You're gonna want to be a matron of
Speaker 1: our matriarch, going to want to join the matriarchy? Uh?
Speaker 1: And then yeah, our merchanes on t public and you
Speaker 1: know review us on the tunes. Oh yeah, I love
Speaker 1: our reviews and they're just like, like, I get it,
Speaker 1: I'm stupid. It always makes me feel so bad. Oh,
Speaker 1: it's cutting reading. I just on the way here. I
Speaker 1: read a bunch. I was a guest on another podcast
Speaker 1: and I read the reviews and it was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, people hate me so much. Caitlin has great
Speaker 1: self control with that kind of stuff. I have no
Speaker 1: self control. I read everything and I feel I'm addicted
Speaker 1: to feeling horrible. We should all be more like setting
Speaker 1: a great example. Look, I teach classes on how to
Speaker 1: be me. Yeah, thank you again so much for being here, Matt,
Speaker 1: and thank thanks for listening. And we'll be here next week. Bye.