1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Probably one of the 2 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: most terrifying books that I read when I was a 3 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: kid was Amyville Horror, and went on to actually see 4 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: the movie as well, probably a couple of years later. 5 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: And you know, it's a weird thing in life that 6 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: those things, many times that scare of some the most 7 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: are not actually real. And as it turned out, what 8 00:00:53,720 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: actually happened in that home in Amdville mass murder by 9 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: Ronnie de Fayo, where he killed his entire family, was 10 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: pure horror. But you know, flies lighting on people, and 11 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: evil pigs and those sorts of things, blood in the 12 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: basement and all the other nonsense. It turned out not 13 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: to be the actual facts. But I got a case 14 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: today that in its own right, it is terrifying to 15 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: me for a number of different reasons. First off, it 16 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: actually has Ambeville plays a part in this case. It 17 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: occurs on Long Island, and it involves body parts being found. 18 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: And you know what, my friends, the individuals that perpetrated 19 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: the crimes here have been cut loose and are analist 20 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: and the only thing standing between them and us are 21 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: ankle monitors. I'm Joseph Gott Morgan and this is body bags. Hey, David, 22 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: I was wondering, Wow, I wonder how safe people would 23 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: feel if they knew that a serial killer or a 24 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: mass murderer, which are two different things that have been caught, 25 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: were released to go back home after they were caught 26 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: and charged and said, yeah, now listen, sweetheart, put this 27 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: ankle monitor on. We're going to be watching you. Be nice, Yeah, 28 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: be nice? Would you would you want to live next 29 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: door to these individuals? I don't know. For me, I 30 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: don't know. It's kind of a no brainer. But the 31 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: world that we live in nowadays, you just never know. 32 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: And I got to tell you when I saw this 33 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: case cases, I don't, I don't. I don't want to. 34 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: I don't want to short change the victims here in 35 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: their families, because we've got two at least too. It 36 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: takes a lot, yeah, at least too. It takes a 37 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: lot to shock me, it really does. This actually did, 38 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: in fact shock me a little bit. How about you, buddy. 39 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 2: As I was putting this together and looking through things, 40 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 2: the New York Post has been it's right there on 41 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 2: Long Island, so the New York Post is going to 42 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: be all over this. But here's what we have friends. 43 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: I'm looking at a picture right now, Joe. I've never 44 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 2: seen anything like this in the American press by on 45 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 2: accident or on purpose rather. And it's the picture of 46 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: an arm yep severed just below the shoulder. It's showing 47 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: most of the bicep, a tattoo on the by sep 48 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: bicep going down towards the elbow, and then all the 49 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 2: way down to the hand. And it's on a tree. Yeah, well, 50 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: hanging down. It's actually it looks like an area that's 51 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: been flooded, a flooded out type of an area where 52 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: the tree. You know, that's what it looks like to me. 53 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it does to me too. And you know what 54 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: this tells me, you know, just if you just show 55 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: if you said, okay, Morgan, here you go. Here's a photo. 56 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: We want you to look at the photo, and you know, 57 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: from a forensics perspective, of course, look at this photo 58 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: and give me your first impressions of this, not knowing 59 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: anything else about the case. If I just saw this 60 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: image stand alone, and even though part of it's been 61 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: digitized out or covered digitally, you can still appreciate. I 62 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: can see red muscle tissue as you had mentioned it's 63 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: probably part of the bicep and maybe a bit of blood. 64 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: Tattoos are easily you can see the elbow, the elbows 65 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: features features quite prominently. In the back of the hand, 66 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: I can make out what's referred to as the dorsum, 67 00:04:58,080 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: which is the back of the hand with this kind 68 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: of of you know, this tattoo, this very distinctive. You 69 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: know what I would say this was, this was something 70 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: that was randomly dumped. There's been no care. There's been 71 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: no care taken with this. And we've talked about this before, 72 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: the memorialization of the dead, and you know, it's like 73 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: you've heard the old term honor among thieves, even people 74 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: that commit homicides many times where they're trying to get 75 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: rid of remains, they'll go to some length to memorialize 76 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: the dead, and that means at least dig a shallow grave, 77 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: put some covering around the body. Man, this looks like 78 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: someone was driving down the road, even though this isn't 79 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: a park, but it looks like garbage that you would 80 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: see on side of the road, like somebody took a 81 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: McDonald's cup and just flung it. And this is a 82 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 1: human being. We're talking about apart. This hand, this hand 83 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: attached to this arm is a hand that expressed love 84 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: at some point in their life. It's probably a hand 85 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: that was held by mother. It was probably a hand 86 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: that you know, thought about what the future hold held. 87 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: Is they flipped through a book and they read about 88 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 1: opportunities that might be out there for them, and it's discarded, 89 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: and it really, it really tells you a lot about 90 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: who did this. I think I don't know about it. 91 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I know about me, but I'd love to 92 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: know what you think about it. 93 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: One thing I noticed, there's not enough blood for me. 94 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: If it looks like this arm, severed arm came from 95 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 2: someplace else and was put there, thrown there whatever, it 96 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 2: landed in that spot. But it wasn't cut off during 97 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 2: this spot. It wasn't like a guy wasn't driving down 98 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 2: the road on a motorcycle and had an accident and 99 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 2: his arm flew off, because it would have way more blood. 100 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 2: Right now. The only blood you see is really on 101 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: one of the small branches that it's resting on. But 102 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: all of this began on February twenty here, it began 103 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 2: with high school. Okay, they are not accused of any wrongdoing. 104 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 2: I want to throw that out there, because these high 105 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: school students are now probably never going to get over this. 106 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 2: They're going to be telling you this to this is 107 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 2: a marker in their lives right now and whatever, there's 108 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 2: going to be that marker before the body parts and 109 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 2: after the body in their life. And I hate that 110 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 2: for them, because nobody deserves to have this as a 111 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: marker in their life. But February twenty ninth, a group 112 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: of Long Island High school students found a left arm 113 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: on the side of a Babylon road on their way 114 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: to school. The arm was discovered just before nine am, 115 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: according to police. As officers investigated the crime scene, a 116 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: canine unit located a leg sticking out of a pile 117 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 2: of leaves in a wooded area not far from where 118 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 2: the arm had been found. They're looking around trying to 119 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 2: figure out what they have here, and they're out there 120 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: all day. Later in the day, early evening, Suffolk County 121 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 2: detectives find what appears to be a woman's head, leg 122 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 2: and arm in the same park where what they determined 123 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: earlier were male human remains. I don't know if we 124 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 2: were clear on that earlier, but the tattoos kind of 125 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 2: gave it away. I've never seen those tattoos on a 126 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 2: girl's arm. The body parts likely belonged to the same woman, 127 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: but they can't even guarantee that at the time they 128 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 2: were finding all of them. They're going on the assumption, 129 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 2: you know, they've got body parts. Now, the medical Examiner's 130 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 2: offices looking into this. Of course, autopsies being done and 131 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: things like that. The police department is treating the investigation 132 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: as a homicide. But what Joe alluded to in talking 133 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 2: about this, about how you would feel about living next 134 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 2: door to somebody that had been accused of heinous crime 135 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: had been being let out. They don't have a motive. 136 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 2: They have body parts, and they have suspects. They have 137 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: four suspects, Joe. These four suspects actually were living together. 138 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 2: Three of them had been living together for some time 139 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: and had actually rented an apartment recently. The fourth person 140 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 2: was actually homeless, and she just apparently joined them for 141 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: this part of the Shenanigans. So we have Steven Brown 142 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 2: forty four from Amityville, Jeffrey Mackie thirty eight of Amityville, 143 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 2: and Amanda Wallace forty of Amityville. Then we have homeless 144 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 2: Alexis Nieva's she's thirty three. Those are the four people 145 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,839 Speaker 2: who were charged. I don't know what crime they well, 146 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 2: I know what child, I don't know. I'm thinking they 147 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 2: were churched with a crime that caused body parts to 148 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: end up in a park. But they're not in jail. 149 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 1: Joe. Yeah, I don't understand this that the police had 150 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: sufficient evidence to tie them back to this. And boy 151 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: do they have evidence. And we'll get into that, but 152 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: I just I gotta I gotta hang back for a 153 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: moment here and kind of kind of take this all in. 154 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 1: How in the world can you be an official that 155 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: is on the bench. You've either been appointed or elected 156 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: on the bench to rule, to make rulings about cases, 157 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: the determination of the case, that the disposition of the case, 158 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,719 Speaker 1: and you're you're not going to this is okay, let 159 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: me I can Yeah, well, hey, I rewatched now I 160 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: got to tell you this. I rewatched Cool Hand Luke recently. 161 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: Oh wow, and yeah, I know this is this is 162 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: going back in. 163 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 2: It and you know what we're dealing with. 164 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, to communicate that's what's in that movie. Paul Newman, 165 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: who played Luke, he he was charged, He was charged uh, 166 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: for criminal mischief and theft. And it was a feeling. 167 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: It's a low grade parking cutting off the heads of 168 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: parking meters, all right. And he was doing hard time 169 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: on a county labor on a on a labor farm, 170 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: all right. And I'm thinking, okay, how far have we 171 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: come at this point in time where we've got these 172 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: individuals that are all living together and what turns out 173 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: dave to be a house of horrors And you've got 174 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: you've got human remains that you've got a double decapitation, 175 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 1: you've got the limbs all cut off, and they're dispersed 176 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: over over a rather broad you know, which goes to, 177 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: you know, in two separate parks essentially in this you know, 178 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: wherever you can have actual rural area in Long Island. 179 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: And you know, like you said, these kids came across it. 180 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: But you know who is this person that sits on 181 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: the bench and says, you know what, ge whiz, I 182 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: think these people would be fine candidates to kind of 183 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: what's it called ro R release on their own recognizance, 184 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: if you will, and put an ankle bracelet on them 185 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: to make sure that you can monitor them. You know, 186 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: how do you do that? And if somebody has okay, 187 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: if somebody has breached this, it has breached this relative 188 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: to they've gone through this veil in their mind where 189 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: they think that it's okay to kill someone two people 190 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: and then take a meat cleaver and a number of 191 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: other instruments and just remember their bodies and chopped them up. 192 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: Who is this person that cuts these folks back loose, 193 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: not on society. You know that they've they've apparently in 194 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: this case, they've they've they've got the two victims here, 195 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: they've got them identified to a certain degree, which is 196 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: a herculean task in and of itself when you're talking 197 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 1: about dismembered remains. We do have heads to go on. 198 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: We obviously, as we mentioned earlier, we have a hand. 199 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: As it turns out, that hand belongs to a gentleman 200 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: that had done, as they say in New York, had 201 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: done a twenty year turned upstate. He was in Attica 202 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 1: for twenty years, and he is apparently earned his life around. 203 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: But I watched the interviews and just let me I 204 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: hurt anybody within the sound of my voice. Please do 205 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: yourself a favor and go listen to this man's family 206 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: as they're leaving the courtroom. I cannot even begin to 207 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: fathom the level of dismay and shock that they must 208 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: have had when they're standing there in that courtroom. They 209 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: know that their loved one, who has fought this fight 210 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: to get out of prison, do his time, He did 211 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: his time, he's kind of turned his life around. They're 212 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: sitting there and they're thinking, oh my gosh, these people, 213 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: these butchers, have been cut loose back out on society. 214 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: I can't even begin to understand the place that the 215 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: family is in right now. 216 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 2: The one thing that explains this now, just to be 217 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: very clear, a couple of the names we're going to 218 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 2: mention have been in the news a lot lately because 219 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 2: of the Long Island serial killer case, the Gilgo Beach murders. 220 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 2: Because Ray Tierney is the prosecutor. He's the guy that 221 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 2: we have talked a lot about on him a lot. Yeah, 222 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: he's done a lot of really good things and he's 223 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 2: the one who is in the middle. 224 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: Here. 225 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 2: Here's the reason they were able to get to be 226 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 2: let out. They have restructured bail reform in New York. 227 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 2: In twenty nineteen, they changed the laws because they said 228 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 2: there are too many people. It became a political football 229 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 2: of racism, saying there were too many people who couldn't 230 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 2: afford to get out on bail were being held, you know, 231 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: because we're not. 232 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: Talking about people throwing bricks or store front windows. Here. 233 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 2: Here's the thing, the charges were not murdered. They did 234 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: not charge these four people with killing anybody. They don't 235 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: have the proof. And that's what Ray Tierney said. He said, 236 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 2: I can't charge them with something I can't prove, right, 237 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 2: and he charged them with everything he feels like he 238 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 2: could prove, which is you know, chopping up their bodies 239 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: things like that, which is all horrible enough. I mean, 240 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 2: they were all charged with hindering prosecution, campering with evidence, 241 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 2: and concealing a human corpse. But he couldn't prove who 242 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 2: killed them yet. And I say yet, because they're still 243 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 2: investigating it. 244 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, but they to be fair, yeah, and to be fair. 245 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: You're right, you're absolutely right, Dave the Emmy. And again 246 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: this goes back, you know, kind of into my world 247 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: where you have all of these parts and you know 248 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: they literally some yeah, literally the some total of the 249 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: parts are going to tell you the story, right, you know, 250 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: you're hoping to get answers and you know, I think 251 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: that one of the things that you know that the 252 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: Emmy is faced with. First off, when you have a 253 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: dismemberment case and you have parts that are that are dispersed, 254 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: you literally what we will do in the morgue is 255 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: that we will lay the parts out in an antomically 256 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: correct position on the table. And from a demonstrative perspective, 257 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: if you when you move forward with a case like 258 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: this in in court, it's as you can imagine, it's 259 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: very striking to see if you'll just imagine, and this 260 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: is the way we kind of take the photograph. We'll 261 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: take the dismembered body that's laid out an anatomically correct position, 262 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: and then we'll take a shot from above, and there's 263 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: a little gap that's left between the points where the 264 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: body has been cut. And you talk about a powerful 265 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: image for someone to see because they can see the 266 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: exact locations where some tool was applied to the body 267 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: to you know, undertake this ghastly, this ghastly event, and 268 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: it really you know, it really strikes home. But here 269 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: here's the thing. This is what the me is left with. 270 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: It would seem at least that to their benefit, it 271 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: would seem at least these remains are relatively fresh. Okay, 272 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: so they're in the process right now of trying to 273 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: determine the actual cause of death in here, because you know, 274 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: we're talking about two bodies. I can't imagine I can't 275 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: imagine that the that these individuals just fell over dead 276 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: of natural causes, all right, and they decided well you 277 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: know that. 278 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know it's interesting. I want to ask 279 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 2: you something about when you put the bodies back together 280 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 2: for just a second. 281 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure. 282 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 2: One of the historically strong cases in crime that is 283 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 2: still an unsolved murder is the case of the Black 284 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 2: Dahlia in California, and there are many people who believe 285 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 2: that a doctor or somebody with medical training actually did 286 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 2: kill or drain her body in a bathtub. And then 287 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 2: because in that case, if I'm not mistaken, it wasn't 288 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 2: her body laid out in an anatote. It was even 289 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: though it had been severed and cut up, that it 290 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 2: was still late and mutilated. 291 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was, and it was separated, and you know, 292 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: those those images are out there and you can tell 293 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that we look for, 294 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: if you just think about the word margin, One of 295 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: the things that we talk about are the margins of 296 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: the cuts. And when you look at the margins of 297 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: the cuts, you begin to get an idea as to 298 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: what type of instrument was used. And let's say, for instance, 299 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: if for those of you of our friends out there 300 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: that have never held a scalpel or handled a scalpel 301 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: in any way, the edge that on a scalpel, you know, 302 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 1: we use it. Obviously, it's used in surgery, We use 303 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: it in the morgue is so so very sharp. I 304 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: can't even begin to just have to cut myself multiple 305 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: times in the morgue with scalpels over the years, and 306 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: they are so very very sharp that when you cut 307 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: with a scalpel, the margins are so uniformed, I mean, 308 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: and they have to be, particularly if you're talking about 309 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: if a surgeon was wielding the knife. As they say, 310 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: you have to be so exact with this. So you 311 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: compare that that that bit of wark to what you 312 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: would see, say, for instance, in this case where you 313 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: go to this apartment that these people are living in 314 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: Dave in Amdyville, and I think you told me, and 315 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,959 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I read it, didn't they find a 316 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: meat cleaver there? 317 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, Joe, I don't because we don't know motive. We 318 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 2: don't know a lot about this story. We do know, 319 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 2: and what caught our attention, of course, body parts being found. 320 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 2: And I think of the high school students, and I 321 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 2: think of the detectives, and I think of the families, 322 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 2: as you mentioned, of the of these two people who 323 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 2: are dead, they haven't given us their names yet, but 324 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 2: they have given us information. A fifty eight year old 325 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 2: woman fifty three year old man were the victims, and 326 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 2: they know that they had lived together in a residence. 327 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 2: They don't know the last time they lived there, but 328 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: they're working on a notifying family and before they release 329 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 2: the names here because there's too much they don't know. 330 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 2: And again you've got the four people accused of tampering 331 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: with evidence, hindering prosecution, concealing a human corpse, and you 332 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: also got again you mentioned it, we've got a meat cleaver, 333 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 2: and we have butcher's knives. Blood was found all over 334 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 2: this apartment where they served a search warrant in Amityville. Now, 335 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 2: the police have to know certain things before they can 336 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 2: get a search warrant, and we are not privy to 337 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 2: this information because again, now we're going back to because 338 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 2: they found body parts. But the body parts are found, 339 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 2: not all the body parts are found. There are still 340 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 2: body parts out there that they investigators are looking for. 341 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 2: They've been looking in ponds nearby. They've been looking all 342 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: over this many miles of area looking for human body parts. 343 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 2: We don't even know if there are more than two people. 344 00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: We only know they found two heads. 345 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and here's the key what we're looking for here. 346 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: Still at this point, I've talked about arms, kind of 347 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: touched on legs and talked about heads, but at this point, 348 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: we still don't have torsos. Dave. One of the things 349 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: I enjoy about having you on the show with me 350 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 1: is that I feel as though sometimes I'm informing and 351 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: maybe even to a certain degree I'm not trying to 352 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: sound arrogant, but teaching. Because you came back at me 353 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: with something just a moment ago in your initial assessment 354 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: where you said I didn't see any blood, and for me, 355 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: you saying that is a recognition of the fact that 356 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: you know something has occurred somewhere else, and you even 357 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: said that I picked up on that. So, yeah, there's 358 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: learning going on. I hope for all our friends there's 359 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,479 Speaker 1: some learning going on because I got to tell you 360 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: I learned from you every time we sit down. 361 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 2: It's amazing. It's amazing the things that I picked up, 362 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 2: and by the way, from those of you who reach out, 363 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 2: who have listened to the show and things like that. 364 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 2: You know, at Crime Con Joe, you and I had 365 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 2: the opportunity to do an entire show in front of 366 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 2: an audience about people about bodies being cut up. We 367 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: did several different topics that there are several different cases 368 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 2: that day. Yeah, and there were all the people being 369 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 2: cut up, and I remember at the time thinking, you 370 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: and I both have said, this seems to be a 371 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 2: really weird trend. There are a lot of these they are, 372 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 2: but at least in those stories, we had the complete picture. 373 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 2: You know, whether it was somebody trying to pull off 374 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 2: the perfect crime, which they've been doing that since Leopold 375 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 2: and Lobe, or you've got the angry man who wants 376 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 2: to get rid of every you know, there are all 377 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 2: kinds of reasons. But now we actually have four people 378 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 2: who police know had something to do. 379 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's yeah, Oh my gosh, that's the striking thing 380 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: about this four people. It's one thing if you have 381 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: an individual you talked about the whatever that case is, 382 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: the Black Dahlia. You know, the people have gone on 383 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: from and they've always singled in on one guy. How 384 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: many cases, you know. I'm just I'm having a moment 385 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: of clarity here. I don't recall I don't I really 386 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: don't recall another case that has involved four people involving 387 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: the dismemberment of two fellow human beings. This is this 388 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: is an outlier that we're talking about here. What what 389 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: could what could compel four people to want to participate 390 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: in this kind of behavior. And it's like they're sitting 391 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: down in there playing Jen Rummy together dismembering Yeah, never know, 392 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: they're dismembering two fellow humans here, right, you know what, 393 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: where do you get to that point? 394 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 2: It's wow, just thinking that based on the fact they 395 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 2: didn't charge them with killing them because they can't prove 396 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 2: who killed them or why. And I've wondered this often, 397 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 2: and I've actually asked you about things, Joe along the way, 398 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 2: because I wonder when police call you. I mean, I 399 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 2: know you have to be called in when they don't 400 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 2: know what has happened, you know, to the person. You know, 401 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 2: I don't know how this person died. I don't know 402 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 2: what led up to it. I don't you know. In 403 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 2: this case, all we have is the end. We don't 404 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 2: have when the crime took place. We don't have where 405 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 2: it took place. We don't know where these people were 406 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 2: last seen. We don't know did they have a relationship 407 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 2: with the people who are now charged with cutting up 408 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 2: their bodies. And we have the piece of evidence that 409 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 2: police obviously knew enough to be and had enough info, 410 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 2: enough evidence to go before judge and get a search 411 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 2: warrant to search the home rented by three of the 412 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 2: four people charged in this crime. And we know that 413 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 2: they found the butcher knife, We know that they found 414 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 2: a meat cleaver, and we know they found a lot 415 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 2: of blood, so much blood. And I have to know this. 416 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 2: I have to ask you this, Joe. According to investigator's paperwork, 417 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: the claw the drains in this house that they rented, 418 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 2: and they'd only been there a few weeks, they hadn't 419 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 2: hadn't been there long. The drains have had so much 420 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 2: blood and human matter in them that none of the 421 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 2: drains in the place worked. They were all clogged with 422 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 2: what I would assume it'd be evidence. 423 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you bet, and let me tell you what 424 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: what I think, at least for whatever that's worth. You 425 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: know that dollar nine cents in some places, get your 426 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 1: cup of coffee. 427 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 2: But give us the directions we need the directions for 428 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 2: that dollary ninety coffee. 429 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that's a cheap cup of coffee, isn't it. 430 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: You need to hang out in the places I hang at. Yeah, 431 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: so yeah, let me kind of tell you what what 432 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: would have happened in my experience when you walk into 433 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 1: an environment like this, we suspect and this is this 434 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: is kind of interesting. How did they connect the dots 435 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: between these four people and these remains that they're they 436 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: have some specific information relative to this. There's some kind 437 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: of association that's going on here that to their credit, 438 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: they haven't revealed. I don't want them to reveal it 439 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 1: until they're ready. But if they get enough data to 440 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: go before a magistrate or judge and get a warrant 441 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: when they go into that house, you know, all bets 442 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: are off at that point. They're going to be very careful. 443 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 1: There will be limited number of people within that domicile 444 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: that'll be examining that environment. You're not going to have 445 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: people traps in and out of there. And one of 446 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: the reasons is is that you know, they found the 447 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: body parts before they got the warrant for the house, right, 448 00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: so they know they're they're going to deal with a 449 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: horror show here, going back to what we said about Ambdyville. 450 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: And so with that said, first off, they're going to 451 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: photograph everything within that house, room by room by room, 452 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: and then my suspicion is is that they're going to 453 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: if they see one drop and remember what we do 454 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: at a scene, Dave, with forensics examination of blood or 455 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: what we suspect to be blood. We do not look 456 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: at a brown spot or a red spot and say, yes, 457 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: that's blood. There's like a four step, three step process 458 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: in some cases that we go through in order to 459 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: confirm that that is in fact blood. But all it 460 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: would take in proximity to that area is one droplet 461 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: and we would be able to identify it on the 462 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: scene with a what's called a presumptive test, collect samples 463 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: of the visible blood that we have, and assuming that 464 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: some kind of butchery has taken place in this environment, 465 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: they're going to go in and probably apply an agent 466 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: like luminol or blue star that. 467 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: It shows on TV shows. 468 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: It does illumino luminol only only lasts for just a brief, 469 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: brief time and you have to have your camera ready 470 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: this happens, yeah, and you have to snap it really quick. 471 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: Blue Star is a bit different, works on the same 472 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: principle and even if you're making an effort to clean 473 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: up doesn't work. You know, there have been cases where 474 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: people have butchered people years and years prior to and 475 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: it's still luminess is when you apply this stuff, it's yeah, 476 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: it's a heck of a substance, and it's a real 477 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: tool for the toolbox for the investigators and for forensics. 478 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: You can actually use a luminess area where you've applied 479 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: one of these substances, uh, in order to appreciate the 480 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: blood dynamic. How that blood landed in that particular spot. 481 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: Was it low velocity, medium velocity, was it high velocity. 482 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: Was it just kind of passive dripping, like you would 483 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: stand there with a butcher knife in your hand, just 484 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: kind of drips. You can still appreciate that, which is 485 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: fascinating to me. But here's the thing. When an individual 486 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: is in the middle. First off, we have to assume 487 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: that the perpetrators of something like this have never been 488 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: around this type of horror, so they're in a frenzy, 489 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: right they get into this thing, and I think a 490 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: lot of people think that this is going to be easy, 491 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: and it ain't. Because now with every strike that's being 492 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: made with this instrument, whether you're drawing a knife across 493 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: a you know, a leg, or you're slamming down with 494 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: a meat cleaver on a particular area, you're generating with 495 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: every pass of that blade, you're generating more and more 496 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: evidence every single time. And what they would find out 497 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: very quickly, Dave, is that there would be a tremendous 498 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: amount of seeping blood. Now I'm not talking about blood spray. 499 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: It's not like in a horror movie where someone has, 500 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: you know, nicked an artery, you know, and it's like blasting. 501 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: It's not like that. You're talking about something that is 502 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: going to drip and seep out of these severed limbs, 503 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: and brother, they're going to have they're going to have 504 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: a damn mess on their hands that and they're not 505 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: going to know what to do with it. So what 506 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: what would you normally do in an environment, in a 507 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: household environment where you've got a mess where you're going 508 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: to run to the sink, you're going to rub to. 509 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 2: The tub to take them to the tub and get 510 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 2: them in there, and. 511 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: Exactly you're going to go to the toilet. Let me 512 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: tell you what they and I've been present when this happens, dude. 513 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: First off, the water of that house is shut off. Period. Okay, 514 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: that sink, the dream, the dream which is that curved 515 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: the curved pipe beneath the sink, the tub and the 516 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: trap in the tub go into the kitchen as well. 517 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: That sink and the trap in there. Brother, that's coming out. 518 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: That's coming out, and they're gonna put that in the 519 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,719 Speaker 1: back of the van. In some jurisdictions, I don't know, 520 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: maybe they just took the traps out. But you know, 521 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: I've been in houses where we've removed the tub, we've 522 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: taken all the plumbing, that immediate plumbing. You don't take 523 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: out all the plumbing, obviously, but you take all that out. 524 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: Why is that? Well, Okay, if if what you're saying here, 525 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: and I think I'm I'm reading it right, that the 526 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: thing would not drain, you cannot get let's say, for instance, 527 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: a decent picture looking from the underside of that tub 528 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: and up into that drain in the floor. It's it's 529 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: really an impossibility. So if you take that thing out 530 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: and you look down, it's not the well, yes, kind 531 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: of long axis, and you can shine light in there, 532 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: you can actually see and what they're doing is they 533 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: don't have congealed blood in there. What they're doing with 534 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: is is human muscle and skin tissue, and that's clogging 535 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: up and it's not going anywhere. Dude. You could have 536 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: you could have the strongest draino in the world, and 537 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: you might be able to get it to move a bit, 538 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: but it's going to be very, very difficult. I've worked 539 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: cases where people have tried to flush body parts down 540 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: toilets as well, and you know, I've had other things 541 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: flush down toilets as well with with with spontaneous births, 542 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: you know that have occurred, and we've had to recover 543 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: that those the fetus as well, And so it's not 544 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: something that's eaten and that's generally what gives the person away. 545 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: And so they're going to have They're going to have 546 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: this incredible volume of evidence in this case moving forward. 547 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: I think the big question though, is that did they 548 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: put anything into these drains that could give them an 549 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: indication as to what actually happened that night and why 550 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: where are the torsos? You know, you think about that. 551 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: It's one thing to remove an arm or leg, but 552 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: the torso is is the most difficult piece to all 553 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: of this. And I don't I'm not being I'm not 554 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 1: trying to be a you know, you know, smart at 555 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: look by saying that, but it is the biggest, the 556 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: biggest issue here. 557 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 2: There is one contrasting sidebar. Joe, Yeah, yeah, back to 558 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 2: the arm. Very quickly, we had the first arm, we 559 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,919 Speaker 2: described the picture that was in the New York Post, 560 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 2: and then we had the tattoo. 561 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 562 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 2: Well the tattoo was left intact. The arm was severed, 563 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 2: and it didn't look like it was a very clean 564 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 2: severing based on what I saw. But right, you know 565 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 2: that hand had no fingertips. They'd cut the fingertips off 566 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 2: that hand. 567 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 568 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, Now when you're going to go to that type, 569 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 2: I'm going to assume cutting off somebody's fingertips is to 570 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: get rid of their fingerprints so they can't be identified. 571 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 2: But you leave the tattoo. Now we've got missing torsos, 572 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 2: and we found two heads. We found arms, legs, I 573 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 2: don't know we found all I don't know all the 574 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,760 Speaker 2: parts we found, but we have not found the bulk 575 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 2: of the body here. 576 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: No, you are too clogged up, right, And as far 577 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: as eradicating evidence to try to you're cutting finger tips off. 578 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: You can still get palm prints, but what's your purpose 579 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: in doing that because you've cut the heads off and 580 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: the heads have been found, so you're gonna have Dentiician 581 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: Dave I worked a case one time where I had 582 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 1: two homeless guys that lived in a homeless camp. One 583 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,240 Speaker 1: guy murdered the other one by cutting his throat I think, 584 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: and he cut the guy's He cut the guy's hands off, 585 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: and if I remember correctly, attempted to pull his teeth 586 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: and threw him in a creek bed and left his 587 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,839 Speaker 1: wallet in his back pocket. And you know, so you're 588 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: not dealing with the intelligence here, all right? So yeah, 589 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: if you're gonna in for a penny, in for a pound, 590 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: why are you not going to go to these great, 591 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: these larger steps in order to you know, make any 592 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: evidence of these individuals go away that you had any 593 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: contact with them. Now you're you're doing this in an 594 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: environment that's going to directly tie back to you, and 595 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: it's going to lead the police to you, and they're 596 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: going to be able to figure this narrative out, Dave. 597 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: But however, I think that the tale is still left 598 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: to be told. And I can promise you, my friends 599 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 1: here on Bodybags, we're going to revisit this case. We're 600 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: going to talk about a little bit more, because right 601 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: now we're still waiting on the cause of death on 602 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: not one but two individuals that have been dismembered and 603 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: tossed away. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body 604 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: Bags