1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 2: Here in today's episode, I'm going to be chatting with 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:23,159 Speaker 2: Rosalind Dakin, Associate professor at Carlton University in Ottawa and 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 2: principal investigator at the Dynamic Behavior Lab. We're going to 6 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 2: be chatting about hummingbirds, as she and her co authors 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: just had a new paper published in the Journal of 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 2: Zoology Turning trade offs. Hummingbird power reserves are used to 9 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 2: decrease turning radius or increase turning velocity. So, without further ado, 10 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 2: let's jump right into the interview. Hi, Rosalind, Welcome to 11 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 2: the show. 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having me. 13 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: So we're going to be talking about hummingbirds today. We're 14 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 2: already really enjoying the company of hummingbirds down here in Atlanta. 15 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: Have they arrived up there where you are? Yeah, you're 16 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 2: in Ontario? 17 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 3: Correct, Yes, exactly, I'm in Ottawa, Ontario. And they arrive 18 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 3: the first week of May the ruby started. Hummingbirds show 19 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 3: up almost like clockwork every year. 20 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 2: It's always a joyous occasion here at my house when 21 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: we finally see the first humming birds of the season 22 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 2: appear at our feeders and flowers, and I think, you know, 23 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 2: at first it's the magic of them being here, the 24 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 2: way they move and all, But as you begin to 25 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: observe them, you really begin to notice how intensely territorial 26 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,559 Speaker 2: they are about their flowers or about the cute little 27 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 2: feeder we've put out for them. Can you tell us, like, 28 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 2: why are they so territorial about this? Sometimes as humans 29 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 2: putting out feeders, we want to tell them like, no, no, 30 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,839 Speaker 2: there's plenty you can share, and they're generally not having 31 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: any of that. 32 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. They have super competitive behaviors, and that's 33 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 3: something that we've been studying in my lab. Why they're 34 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 3: like that, I think it all comes down to their 35 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 3: super high metabolic rates. Their lifestyle relies on having a 36 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 3: steady stream of calories throughout the day, and if they 37 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:10,839 Speaker 3: go even an hour without feeding, depending on how much 38 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 3: energy fat store they have in their body, that can 39 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 3: be death an hour without a meal. So those food 40 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 3: sources are really really valuable to them, and their metabolic 41 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 3: rates are so high. If you could scale a hummingbird's 42 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 3: body up to the size of the average adult human, 43 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 3: it would be like if you or I had to 44 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 3: eat one hundred and fifty large pizzas in a day. 45 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: Wow, Now how can their wings that move so fast 46 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 2: to repel thems of the air. 47 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, so in order to be able to hover, hummingbirds 48 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 3: have to beat their wings, depending on the species, between 49 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 3: thirty to eighty times per second. So if you think 50 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 3: about a full wing stroke, that's your arm being fully 51 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 3: extended back, coming forward, and then back again and repeating 52 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 3: that cycle. For species like ruby throated hummingbirds, fifty times 53 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 3: every second. It's incredibly fast. So they have so that's 54 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 3: why they have such high metabolic rates, the highest of 55 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 3: any vertebrate animal per unit body mass. But they have 56 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 3: a lot of anatomical adaptations that are required to be 57 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 3: able to do that. So for example, they're pectoral muscles 58 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 3: that draw the wings down that activate the downstroke are 59 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 3: hypercha feed. They're really really large. But similarly, they have 60 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 3: another muscle, the super corecoidous muscle that draws the wing 61 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 3: back up, and it's also hypercha feed. It's also extra large. 62 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 3: In hummingbirds, they have skeletal adaptations as well, so the 63 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 3: muscle that the bones that those muscles attached to have 64 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 3: to be larger and more robust than they are in 65 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 3: other birds that have more typical wing beat frequencies, and 66 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 3: they also have dramatically modified and that so the bones 67 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 3: of their wing, these are the bones that we can't see. 68 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 3: We just see the feathered part of the wing, but 69 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 3: inside the hummingbird's wing they're humorous is really really short. 70 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 3: It's so short, it's almost like a little dot, you know, 71 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 3: It's just a couple of millimeters in length. And their 72 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 3: their wing is mostly hand And what that does is 73 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 3: it means that the heavy parts of their arm bones 74 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 3: are drawn in close to the body to make it 75 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,239 Speaker 3: easier to beat those wings so fast. But it also 76 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 3: means that those muscles that are activating those wingstrokes are 77 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 3: working over a shorter distance, and so that makes it 78 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 3: physically possible for them to beat their ways at this 79 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 3: incredibly high frequency. 80 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 2: So what evolutionarily has driven this development this arm's race 81 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: of hummingbirds. Is it just their diet and how they 82 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 2: need to feed it, is it predators, is it other hummingbirds? Like, 83 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 2: how does it all come together? 84 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a super interesting question and one that we 85 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 3: have hypotheses, but it's still an active area of research. 86 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 3: If we go back, well, let's start with looking at 87 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 3: what we have today. The hummingbird family is extraordinarily diverse. 88 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 3: There's three hundred and sixty six different species and they 89 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 3: live in the Americas, so South America, Central America, the Caribbean, 90 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 3: and subspecies here in North America. That's incredibly diverse, and 91 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 3: they've radiated, they've diversified into all of these species over 92 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 3: the past twenty five million years. And if we look 93 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 3: at their closest relatives in the evolutionary tree, the family 94 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 3: tree of all birds, those are swifts, which are also 95 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 3: super agile birds. They're distributed across the globe. We have 96 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 3: swifts in North America. We also have swifts in Europe 97 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 3: and Asia that are aerial insectivores. So swifts spend almost 98 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 3: all of their time in the air catching flying insects, 99 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 3: so they have to be like little fighter pilots to 100 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 3: be able to chase down their prey. So the first 101 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 3: hummingbirds evolved around thirty million years ago from an ancestor 102 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 3: that was a really really acrobatic predator in the air, 103 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 3: and swifts have some of the same skeletal adaptations that 104 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 3: we see in hummingbirds. They have an enlarged keel. That's 105 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 3: the part of the bone on the breastbone where those 106 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 3: pectoral muscles attach, and swifts also have changes in their 107 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 3: wingbones that we see in hummingbirds as well, So that's 108 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 3: part of how we know where the hummingbirds fit in anatomically, 109 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 3: but also genetic studies have established what those relationships are. 110 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 3: So yeah, the first hummingbird was something something like an 111 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 3: insective war chasing down insects, and somehow, you know, maybe 112 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 3: they started to prefer insects that were associated with flowers, 113 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 3: and maybe that led to them consuming some nectar. We 114 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 3: don't know exactly what happened to produce this fift towards 115 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 3: being so specialized on flower nectar. But the other mysterious 116 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 3: part is that the earliest ancestor, the earliest fossil ancestor 117 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 3: we have of hummingbirds is not at all in the 118 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 3: same part of the world where we have all of 119 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 3: the species that we can observe today. The closest fossil 120 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 3: ancestor of hummingbirds they come from Europe, so fossils with 121 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 3: a lot of those hummingbird typical features, a long bill, 122 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 3: an exaggerated keel, and different wing proportions. Those have been 123 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 3: found in Poland and in France and multiple places, so 124 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 3: they arose in Europe we think, and at some point 125 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 3: made their way over to the Americas thirty twenty five 126 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 3: million years ago and from there diversified into very many 127 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 3: species day and a lot of that is the diversification 128 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 3: is probably due to specializing into different areas in the 129 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 3: Americas and in the Caribbean. 130 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: So they're enhanced maneuver built in their power reserves, which 131 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 2: we're going to get into when we start talking about 132 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: your study here. This is largely for inter hummingbird competition 133 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 2: or do they have aerial predators they need to worry 134 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 2: about as well? 135 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 3: They may have some effective predators. That's not something that 136 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 3: we observe very often, but we see a lot of 137 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 3: competition both between species and also within species, so especially 138 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 3: among males within a species, competing for a territory, competing 139 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 3: for a food resource. The other area where we see 140 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 3: them using their acrobatic skills is when they're courting mates. 141 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 3: So in very many species, the males will try to 142 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 3: impress females by doing an elaborate display in the air, 143 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 3: and the way that display goes will differ in different species, 144 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 3: but often they're zooming back and forth, reaching really high 145 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 3: speeds and turning quickly as part of that display, all 146 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 3: at the same time as they show the female their 147 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 3: colorful plumage and sometimes like make certain sounds while they're 148 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 3: doing those as place as well. 149 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: So getting into your research a bit more here, tell 150 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: us a little bit about the Dynamic by Behavior lab 151 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 2: and how hummingbirds factor into your work there. 152 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, so we are interested in differences between individuals and 153 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 3: differences between species and when performance is such an important 154 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 3: part of how they survive, how is it that, like 155 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 3: what determines which individuals are dominant over which others, who's 156 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 3: winning those competitions, what traits determine who wins, But also 157 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 3: for individuals that are subordinate, what options do they have? 158 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 3: How do the subdominant individuals make a living? Those are 159 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 3: some of the questions we're studying in my lab. So 160 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 3: we measure things like they're an individual bird's ability to 161 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 3: generate power in flight, and we also measure their behavior 162 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 3: in big arenas where we can pit multiple birds against 163 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 3: each other competing over a food resource and seeing both 164 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 3: who's dominant, but also how are they using flight maneuvers 165 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 3: to outdo each other. 166 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 2: Now, how do you go about studying something like this, 167 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 2: because hummingbirds, i imagine, are not easy creatures to study anyway, 168 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: and then you're dealing with some difficult to measure properties here. 169 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it takes a lot of patience. And one 170 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,359 Speaker 3: of the nicest assays that's possible to do with hummingbirds 171 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 3: is a load lifting assay where we can measure the 172 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 3: maximum power they're able to generate with their flight apparatus, 173 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 3: with those muscles that are activating the wings. And we 174 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 3: do that assay in a chamber that's think of like 175 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 3: a vertical cylinder with kind of an open bright light 176 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 3: at the top, and a humming bird at the bottom 177 00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 3: of that chamber is going to be highly motivated to 178 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 3: upwards try to escape, and we use an assay that 179 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 3: was developed decades ago by other scientists where we put 180 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 3: a little ring around the bird's neck that's attached to 181 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 3: a string of beads, and when we know the weight 182 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 3: of the beads along that chain, we can record what's 183 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 3: happening when the hummingbird gets released from the bottom of 184 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 3: the chamber. And if everything is set up suitably for 185 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 3: the bird as they try to escape upward with everything 186 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 3: they've got, we're able to measure exactly how many weights 187 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 3: or how many exact weight of the beads on that 188 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 3: chain that they're able to lift. The higher they go, 189 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 3: they're lifting more and more weight until they hit a 190 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 3: maximum and return back to the bottom of the chamber. 191 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 3: So we're able to develop an assay that just fits 192 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 3: with their capabilities their motivations to measure their maximum weightlifting ability. 193 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: So essentially the tiny necklaces on hummingbirds is a part 194 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 2: of the study exactly. 195 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 196 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, so we have to make those necklaces. Yeah. 197 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: Wow. So this this latest study published in the Journal 198 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 2: of Zoology, really gets into their their maneuverability and their 199 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 2: power reserves. Can you lay out how these these two 200 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 2: aspects are linked. As I was reading the paper, I can't. 201 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 2: I really kept thinking of hummingbirds in like video game 202 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: terms and imagining like little meters at the top of 203 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 2: the screen. 204 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. So a couple of questions motivated this study, and 205 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 3: it was led by my colleague Paulo Segre and my 206 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 3: co author Doug Altuler. So one of the questions was, 207 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 3: when we're measuring their maneuvering performance, which includes lots of 208 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 3: complex behaviors that have a lot of degrees of freedom. 209 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 3: How tightly can they turn, how fast can they move 210 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 3: when they're turning, How fast can they accelerate decelerate? When 211 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 3: we're measuring those maneuvers, it's really hard to capture what 212 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 3: is a bird's maximum ability? The more freedom you give 213 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 3: them in a space where you're capturing what they do, 214 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 3: the less well defined maximum is because there's so many 215 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 3: different ways to move in a completely open environment. So 216 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 3: we've been studying maneuvering ability in across the different hummingbird 217 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 3: species for some years, but we wanted to know is 218 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 3: the power they're able to generate in a more constrained 219 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 3: assay like our low lifting assay, is it predictive of 220 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 3: some maximum that we're able to capture in this free 221 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 3: flight assay. That was the motivation for that study, so 222 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 3: led by Pollow. What Pollo did was he reasoned using 223 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 3: fundamental physics that one of the basic maneuvers that they 224 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 3: use very frequently to turn, which we're calling an arcing urn, 225 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 3: which is basically just a level turn that if you 226 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 3: look at it from above, you follows a smooth arc. 227 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 3: He reasoned that those arcing terns that we can build 228 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 3: a physical model of the forces that they need to 229 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:06,959 Speaker 3: to produce those arcing turns, and we can test whether 230 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 3: the maximum load that a bird is able to lift 231 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 3: in our low lifting assay does that correspond with the 232 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 3: maximum that they're hitting up against as they redirect forces 233 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 3: during those arcing turns. 234 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: So one of these arcing terns you're describing here, would 235 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 2: this perhaps be one of these maneuvers we see when 236 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: one hummingbird chases another hummingbird away from a feed or 237 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 2: flowers in our yard. 238 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, yeah, and yeah, definitely they'll use arcing urns 239 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 3: during chases. They'll also use arcing turns during obstacle avoidance, 240 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 3: which is really important to a fast moving animal. Those 241 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 3: collisions could be deadly. 242 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, these the collision avoidance turns. I guess I don't 243 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 2: notice as much because if they're avoiding collision with my head, 244 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 2: it's all happening so quickly. But yeah, but sometimes we'll 245 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: be watching them off, and we'll be watching them and 246 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 2: we'll see one chase the other off, and it sounds 247 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: like that's what you're talking about here. 248 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 249 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sorry, but I got us off topic here. 250 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 2: You were describing your analysis of these turns. 251 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, So in those free flight essays, we aren't 252 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 3: telling the birds what to do. They're performing at a 253 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 3: sort of routine flight level of performance as they're trying 254 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 3: to avoid the threatening experimenters avoid collisions with the size 255 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 3: of the flight chamber. But we can capture thousands of 256 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 3: maneuvers from each individual over a relatively short span of 257 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 3: time because everything hummingbirds do just happens on much faster 258 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 3: timescale than other species or than their own lives. So 259 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 3: if you record a hummingbird for two hours, you might 260 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 3: capture two thousand arcing turns, for example. And so we 261 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 3: can computationally pull out the segments of flight that represent 262 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 3: the arcing turns that we're limited to a level plane, 263 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 3: and we can apply the physical model that Paolo built 264 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 3: to say, okay, the redirection of forces as the bird 265 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 3: is banking its body to execute that turn, what's the 266 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 3: what's the kind of space of what that looks like 267 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 3: for the many, many thousands of turns that we captured 268 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 3: from the different humming birds in our study. We studied 269 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 3: about twenty individual hummingbirds in that study. And does the 270 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 3: does the limit of that, but distribution, how does that 271 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 3: align with our predicted limit from how much weight those 272 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 3: birds could lift in our highly constrained load lifting assay, 273 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 3: And what we found was that overall, collectively, the model 274 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 3: predicts really well the maximum turning performance of the birds 275 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 3: in that chamber. So the Anna's hummingbirds that we study 276 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 3: either from the west coast of North America slightly larger 277 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 3: species than we have here in Ottawa or where you are, 278 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 3: but they have in our little lifting I say they 279 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 3: can lift about two and a half times their body 280 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 3: weight on average, and we can model what that would 281 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 3: translate to in terms of being able to redirect forces 282 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 3: to execute that turn. And the birds in our free 283 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:29,719 Speaker 3: flight experiment, their peak performance matches that peak of what 284 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 3: we would predict based on their maximum ability. So it's 285 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 3: really satisfying. It It aligns with our hypothesis that in 286 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 3: order to be maneuverable, that power has to come from 287 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 3: their muscle capacity and flight and their kind of excess 288 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 3: muscle capacity. Their ability to just lift weights vertically is 289 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 3: going to determine how well they can execute these high 290 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 3: performance acrobatic maneuvers. 291 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 2: So as they're flying about during the day, like how 292 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: often are they like at absolutely using up their powers. 293 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really good question that we don't know 294 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 3: the answer to yet. And how often are they hitting 295 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 3: their maximum out in nature? Probably not that often compared 296 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 3: to you know, when you think of like the lifespan 297 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 3: of a hummingbird and and how much they do during 298 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 3: it during the day, I would estimate, I would hypothesize 299 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 3: that it's it's pretty rare that they're executing maneuvers that 300 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 3: are that are hitting their max. But in our flight chamber, 301 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 3: you know, it was a pretty small proportion, maybe one 302 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 3: percent of the turns are kind of hitting that maximum envelope. 303 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 3: And and maybe it's similar out in the wild. But 304 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 3: that's something that we'll be able to test in the future, 305 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 3: for example, by having sensors small enough to put on 306 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 3: a really small bird. That's kind of the challenge there. 307 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 3: But a lot at the time of the like you know, 308 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 3: a lot of their time of the day they spend 309 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 3: perching and and probably one of the biggest challenges for 310 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 3: them is maintaining the muscle mass that they would need 311 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 3: to execute those rare super high performance maneuvers. 312 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: That's absolutely fascinating. Now I have I have another question 313 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 2: or two about just studying the hummingbird, Like we as 314 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 2: we observe them, you know, we we obviously pick up 315 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 2: that they are they're very powerful creatures in their own right, 316 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 2: but we also get the sense of fragility about them. 317 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: Are they are they fragile to deal with? 318 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 3: Like? 319 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: What how is it different dealing with hummingbirds versus other 320 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 2: birds you might be studying in your in your work. 321 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say in the lab there their relatives 322 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 3: are easy to deal with compared to other species. And 323 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 3: part of that might be they're they're so specialized. If 324 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 3: you kind of know the conditions they need, they're relatively 325 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 3: easy to keep healthy. The main point of fragility is 326 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 3: that's super high metabolic rate. If they run out of food, 327 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 3: that's catastrophic. But if you've got the right conditions for them, 328 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 3: kind of unlimited food, the right physical space, they're pretty 329 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 3: easy to deal with in the lab. But we have 330 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 3: to cows them separately, and that's different than other birds because, yeah, 331 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 3: they're so aggressive. They they would exclude each other from feeding, 332 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 3: for example, and their bills can be a weapon. So 333 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 3: when when they're kind of housed in captivity, we keep 334 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 3: each individual on its own and you don't see it 335 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 3: that often in the wild. But but if you have 336 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 3: video footage, high speed video footage of birds interacting and 337 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 3: fighting at a feeder, you'll see how that bill is 338 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 3: really like a long dagger, and that they're they're facing off, 339 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 3: they're making sure they orient their bills towards towards each other. 340 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 3: You can imagine a collision with those long bills would 341 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 3: be really catastrophic for an animal that only weighs two 342 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 3: and a half grams. 343 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 2: Oh wow, Yeah, that was going to be one of 344 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 2: my questions, like what is the We see them chasing 345 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 2: each other, like, what are they actually doing to each other? 346 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 2: If they catch it, it's kind of it sounds like 347 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 2: it's like a joust in a sense, right, yeah. 348 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 3: And it's really hard for us to capture what that like, 349 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 3: what are the consequences of that in the while the 350 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 3: best examples we have are footage that people can capture 351 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 3: at a feeder and when birds really get into it 352 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 3: close to a feeder, what happens and you see them 353 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 3: grabbing each other's feathers and using their bills to defend 354 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 3: that space to displace another bird. And and there's still 355 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 3: a lot of open research questions about you know exactly 356 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 3: how like what what signals or outcomes are determining who 357 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 3: wins those competitions and and that's an active area of 358 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 3: work that we're studying now in my lab. But even 359 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 3: in the lab, we'll see them rarely make physical contact 360 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 3: with each other. So if one bird wants to displace 361 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 3: another from a perch, sometimes they'll get into little scuffles 362 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 3: where they're making contact, and I think at high speeds 363 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 3: those kinds of scuffles would be really dangerous to both individuals. 364 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 3: So it's a real game of chicken. 365 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 2: Now, when you're studying hummingbirds, is it completely seasonal? Is 366 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 2: it seasonal availability very much a part of this or 367 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 2: do you have hummingbirds like in captivity that you can 368 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 2: study year round. 369 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 3: Yeah. So in my lab here in Oddwell, we're studying 370 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 3: ruby started hummingbirds and they are migratory and so we've 371 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 3: been catching birds here since the beginning of May, and 372 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 3: we've got a group of males in the lab now 373 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 3: that will release again prior to their autumn southward migration. 374 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 3: So we're only working with them within the breeding season 375 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 3: here and only studying the males, and remarkably many individuals, 376 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 3: many of the migratory species, an individual humming bird will 377 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 3: come back to the very same feeder. So one of 378 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 3: the birds in my lab now is a bird that 379 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 3: we caught and released on campus last year. Attached a 380 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,719 Speaker 3: little band to his leg with an identifying number, and 381 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 3: he would have migrated all the way to Mexico, and 382 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 3: then this spring, the first two weeks of May, like clockwork, 383 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 3: he showed up at the exact same feeder. We captured 384 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 3: him again this year. So it really is remarkable not 385 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 3: only the physical feats that they do, but also they 386 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 3: have remarkable memories and that's all part of their high 387 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 3: metabolic rate. They need to know where those reliable food 388 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 3: sources are. So this male were bethowted humming bird came 389 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 3: back to the exact same feeder after this cross continental journey. 390 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 2: That was going to be one of my follow up 391 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 2: questions about the what's going on in the mind of 392 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 2: a hummingbird, And it's because again, they just they're such 393 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 2: drastically different creatures. They're living on this time frame, you know, 394 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: that's so different from ours, and then vast distances in 395 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 2: addition to vast speeds, so we have what else do 396 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: we know about their about the way their little brains work. 397 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really fascinating. So there's a lot of excellent 398 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 3: research coming out of my co author, Doug Altruler's lab 399 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 3: on how their brains work and how the visual system works. 400 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 3: And we also have studies of their spatial memory. And 401 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 3: so a really beautiful study from about twenty years ago 402 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 3: now on a species of hummingbird that lives in the 403 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 3: Rocky Mountains looked at their ability to learn flowers that 404 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 3: change in nectar availability through time. So real flowers are 405 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 3: not like feeders. Real flowers will be depleted and will 406 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 3: replenish themselves over some seasonal period. And hummingbirds that have 407 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 3: a territory with lots of flowers in them, they need 408 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 3: to know where their next meal is coming from, and 409 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 3: they're able to learn the locations of many flowers. As 410 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 3: an example, this bird that came all the way back 411 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 3: to my feeder from Mexico, he would have remembered other 412 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 3: places along that route, we hypothesize. So what the researchers 413 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,719 Speaker 3: did in Alberta, Canada was create an experiment where they 414 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,719 Speaker 3: could track one male in the wild who had a 415 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 3: territory and they had dynamic feeders in that territory that 416 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 3: went on different time schedules. Maybe some feeders would replenish 417 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 3: on five minute intervals, others on ten minute intervals, others 418 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 3: on twenty minute intervals. And if a bird had multiple 419 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 3: of those variable timed feeders available, would they be able 420 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 3: to learn those different time schedules. They found that indeed 421 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 3: they could. So not only can they remember where the 422 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 3: food resources are, but they can keep track of multiple 423 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 3: variable schedules within their territory, like all in their head, right, 424 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 3: so they've got like a calendar in their head to 425 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 3: determine where like which, which resources have food, where are 426 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 3: they and when are they going to become profitable again? 427 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 3: And their brains are really really small, remember, because their 428 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 3: whole bodies are miniaturized, so their brains are much much 429 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 3: smaller than the brains of other birds. So it's really 430 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 3: quite incredible that they can do that. 431 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really impressed by their ability to map all 432 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 2: that out. And then I feel a little I can't 433 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,959 Speaker 2: help but feel guilty by how like if I forget 434 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 2: to refill the feeder or to change out the nectar 435 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 2: and a feeder, I just now I'm going to feel 436 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 2: even worse because I'm messing with their finely tuned like 437 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 2: mental map of where all the flowers and the feeders are. 438 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is important if you're maintaining a Feeder's important 439 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 3: to keep it going. But you know they're they're really 440 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 3: resilient as well. They've been around for millions of years 441 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 3: before we started providing feeders. And uh, and so the 442 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 3: birds that are in your yard, they're in your neighborhood, 443 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 3: they're going to have other food sources mapped out. So yeah, 444 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 3: it's it's important, but it's unlikely to be catastrophic if 445 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 3: one person, you know, forgets to refill their feeder. But 446 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 3: what's also fascinating is that we're learning how those feeders 447 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 3: are changing are causing contemporary evolution in hummingbirds. The species 448 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 3: that we have on the east eastern North America here 449 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 3: Ruby tharted humming birds. Their populations are doing quite well 450 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 3: despite lots of threats that are that that humans are 451 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 3: creating for other bird species, and probably a big part 452 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 3: of that is humans providing food to them. On the 453 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 3: west coast, the Enna's hummingbird is a species that has 454 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 3: expanded its range, so it used to only live in 455 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 3: kind of warmer states in the southwest of the US, 456 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 3: and now we find that species and as humming bird 457 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 3: as far north as Vancouver, Canada, where we conducted our research. 458 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 3: They've expanded over the past century with people providing food, 459 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 3: both ornamental flowers but also feeders, and we're learning that. 460 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 3: There's a study that just came out this year. We're 461 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 3: learning how providing feeders is causing measurable changes to the 462 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 3: morphology of their beaks. Their beaks are changing in size 463 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 3: as they've been expanding. So it's really really neat because 464 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 3: beak shape evolution is kind of this classic case where 465 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 3: that led Darwin to come to appreciate how natural selection works, 466 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 3: and we humans are now causing that to happen on 467 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 3: rapid timescale. 468 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 2: Wow, so what sort of changes are taking place here? 469 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 2: Are the beaks getting shorter longer? 470 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, so their beaks are getting longer to be able 471 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 3: to extract food from feeders and their way. Researchers have 472 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,479 Speaker 3: been able to discover that is by measuring the beaks 473 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 3: of museum specimens that were collected over the past century 474 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 3: and kind of building up a time series of specimens 475 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 3: from you know, one hundred years ago, fifty years ago 476 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 3: to present. 477 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 2: Wow, that's impressive. So you're spending all this time studying hummingbirds, 478 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 2: do they retain their magic for you or do they 479 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 2: become like just a little every day? Are they still exciting? 480 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 3: They are still exciting. One of my favorite moments from 481 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,959 Speaker 3: going out into the field at the sites where we 482 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 3: find our hummingbirds is getting to see courtship displays. Getting 483 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 3: to see a male court a female and we throw 484 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 3: a hummingbirds say do the shuttle display where they're zooming 485 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 3: back and forth and they start, you know, with a 486 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 3: small arc and they're flaring their colorful feathers in front 487 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 3: of the female and their shuttle gets bigger and bigger, 488 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 3: faster and faster. It's still really magical, even after handling 489 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 3: lots of hummingbirds in the lab. And the other thing 490 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 3: I find really exciting about them is seeing their behavior 491 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 3: slowed down. When if you capture interactions with high speed 492 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 3: video and then watch them at slow speed, it really 493 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 3: looks like you get an even greater appreciation for what 494 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 3: they can do because it looks like they're swimming in 495 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 3: the air. You know, it looks like like they're moving 496 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 3: in the air as definitely as we do kind of 497 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 3: on the ground, and you get a real impression for 498 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 3: things that they can do that you know, they just 499 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 3: whiz by you when you're seeing it in real life, 500 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 3: but there's a lot happening there. 501 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know just from this was several years back, 502 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 2: but I went with my family to Costa Rica and 503 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 2: we got to see some hummingbirds there at some feeders, 504 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 2: and just with whatever sort of iPhone we had at 505 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 2: the time, you know, you could take to take pretty 506 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,719 Speaker 2: decent video and slow it down and gets this enhanced 507 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 2: appreciation for what they were doing. And so I can 508 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 2: only imagine what's possible a with today's iPhones and smartphones 509 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 2: and with like serious of film film equipment. 510 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And Costa Rica has like a 511 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 3: huge diversity of species, and different locations that you'll visit 512 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 3: will have different species. And that's another question that continues 513 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 3: to fascinate me. The smallest hummingbirds we have are just 514 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 3: you know, two grams, which is the mass of a penny. 515 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 2: Wow. 516 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 3: And then the largest species we have is twenty grams. 517 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 3: That's ten times bigger. And then we've got three hundred 518 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 3: and sixty six species that span that range. Most of 519 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 3: them kind of between the two to ten size, which 520 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 3: is still a big range. Why is it that there's 521 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 3: so many different ways to be a hummingbird? How do 522 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 3: all of these like this one kind of overall strategy, 523 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 3: How does it lead to this diversification? And how do 524 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 3: they all coexist? Is another really fascinating question. 525 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 2: All right, well, Roslin, thanks for coming on the show 526 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 2: and chatting with me today about hummingbirds. 527 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 3: Thank you very much. 528 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 2: Thanks once again to Rosalind Dacon for taking time out 529 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 2: of her day to chat with me again. The paper 530 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 2: is turning trade offs hummingbird power reserves are used to 531 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 2: decrease turning radius or increase turning velocity out now in 532 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 2: the Journal of Zoology, and you can learn more about 533 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 2: her work with the Dynamic Behavior Lab by visiting our 534 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 2: website at Rosalindacin dot com. This's r O s l 535 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 2: y N DA ki N dot com. Just a reminder 536 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 2: to everyone out there, The Stuff to Blow Your Mind 537 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 2: is primarily a science and culture podcast with core episodes 538 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but on Fridays we set aside 539 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 2: most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film 540 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 2: on Weird House Cinema. Thanks as always to the excellent 541 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 2: JJ Possway for producing the show, and if you would 542 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 2: like to reach out to us, you can email us 543 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 2: at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 544 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. 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