1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey Revisions History listeners, Malcolm here. Before we get started, 2 00:00:22,556 --> 00:00:25,196 Speaker 1: I wanted to update you on a few things. First thing, 3 00:00:25,796 --> 00:00:31,236 Speaker 1: this August twenty fourth, the Revisionist History season begins in earnest, 4 00:00:31,836 --> 00:00:35,356 Speaker 1: eight old school episodes in a row, the little narrative 5 00:00:35,476 --> 00:00:39,116 Speaker 1: jewel boxes you've come to love. We've been feeding you 6 00:00:39,196 --> 00:00:41,596 Speaker 1: a little bits and pieces so far this season, but 7 00:00:41,756 --> 00:00:44,556 Speaker 1: this is the main event. The heart of it is 8 00:00:44,556 --> 00:00:46,996 Speaker 1: a six part series on guns and violence that I 9 00:00:47,036 --> 00:00:52,076 Speaker 1: think is my favorite thing we've ever done. Weird, moving, funny, heartbreaking. 10 00:00:52,556 --> 00:00:56,236 Speaker 1: So mark your calendar's August twenty fourth is when it 11 00:00:56,276 --> 00:00:58,836 Speaker 1: all happens. And by the way, if you want to 12 00:00:58,876 --> 00:01:01,716 Speaker 1: get that whole mini series early and binge it all 13 00:01:01,756 --> 00:01:04,796 Speaker 1: at once without ads, you can just by becoming a 14 00:01:04,836 --> 00:01:08,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus subscriber. In fact, just six ninety nine a 15 00:01:08,636 --> 00:01:11,676 Speaker 1: month or thirty nine ninety nine a year gets you 16 00:01:11,956 --> 00:01:16,316 Speaker 1: every one of the Pushkin shows early and adfree. Just 17 00:01:16,356 --> 00:01:19,156 Speaker 1: go to the Revisionist History show page in Apple Podcasts 18 00:01:19,556 --> 00:01:24,316 Speaker 1: or Pushkin dot fm, slash plus to sign up. And 19 00:01:24,356 --> 00:01:27,276 Speaker 1: one naice thing, speaking of things you should binge, the 20 00:01:27,356 --> 00:01:31,956 Speaker 1: latest season of our true crime masterpiece Lost Hills has dropped. 21 00:01:32,116 --> 00:01:35,316 Speaker 1: The new season explores a legacy of Malibu's dark prints. 22 00:01:35,716 --> 00:01:39,516 Speaker 1: Mickey Dora. Mickey was a surfer known for his style, grace, 23 00:01:39,556 --> 00:01:42,916 Speaker 1: and aggression who ruled the Malibu Beaches from the nineteen 24 00:01:42,956 --> 00:01:47,276 Speaker 1: fifties to the nineteen seventies. Celebrated for his rebellious spirit, 25 00:01:47,596 --> 00:01:50,156 Speaker 1: he was also a con man who led the FBI 26 00:01:50,196 --> 00:01:52,996 Speaker 1: on a seven year man hunt around the world. Believe me, 27 00:01:53,316 --> 00:01:55,836 Speaker 1: this is a show worth a listen, So sign up 28 00:01:55,876 --> 00:01:58,236 Speaker 1: for Pushkin Plus and you can binge this one too. 29 00:02:01,836 --> 00:02:04,436 Speaker 1: A couple weeks ago, one of my producers, Ben at 30 00:02:04,436 --> 00:02:07,596 Speaker 1: Afh Haffrey, came by the office because he had a 31 00:02:07,676 --> 00:02:11,996 Speaker 1: story to tell me. Ben, Welcome to Hudson, New York. 32 00:02:12,076 --> 00:02:14,036 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me in Hudson, New York. 33 00:02:15,036 --> 00:02:17,396 Speaker 1: Ben just took over writing and hosting a Pushkin show 34 00:02:17,396 --> 00:02:20,156 Speaker 1: I love called The Last Archive, a show about the 35 00:02:20,196 --> 00:02:23,356 Speaker 1: history of truth. Jill Lapour used to host it. Ben's 36 00:02:23,356 --> 00:02:26,116 Speaker 1: worked on it since the beginning. He's always digging around 37 00:02:26,156 --> 00:02:28,556 Speaker 1: in the stacks of some old library, and one day 38 00:02:28,636 --> 00:02:31,636 Speaker 1: last summer he was in the medical history archives at 39 00:02:31,636 --> 00:02:34,956 Speaker 1: Harvard where he found a story that blew his mind. 40 00:02:36,116 --> 00:02:38,196 Speaker 2: Okay, I want to play you some tape. 41 00:02:38,396 --> 00:02:42,596 Speaker 3: Okay, go ahead, Ella, welcome back to Dallas. I'm marvelous. 42 00:02:42,756 --> 00:02:45,236 Speaker 4: Oh, thank you, and it's a pleasure to be back 43 00:02:45,276 --> 00:02:45,796 Speaker 4: here again. 44 00:02:46,476 --> 00:02:48,636 Speaker 2: Do you recognize that voice? 45 00:02:48,916 --> 00:02:50,116 Speaker 1: I no, tell me. 46 00:02:50,516 --> 00:02:54,796 Speaker 2: That is the voice of Eliphantzterle and she's being interviewed 47 00:02:54,796 --> 00:02:57,636 Speaker 2: in the eighties and Dallas, and she's about to tell 48 00:02:58,116 --> 00:03:00,036 Speaker 2: this big story about how she got famous. It's a 49 00:03:00,076 --> 00:03:01,996 Speaker 2: story she tells all the time, like an amateur knight 50 00:03:01,996 --> 00:03:04,316 Speaker 2: at the Apollo Theater when she sings and everyone realizes 51 00:03:04,316 --> 00:03:07,036 Speaker 2: she's got an amazing voice. But I want to play 52 00:03:07,116 --> 00:03:08,716 Speaker 2: you this tape because I want to show you what 53 00:03:08,756 --> 00:03:11,236 Speaker 2: happened when she tells it in this particular instance. 54 00:03:11,236 --> 00:03:15,236 Speaker 3: Okay, Ella, as you look back on your life, here 55 00:03:15,316 --> 00:03:20,676 Speaker 3: was a child from an orphanage and now, no, no, 56 00:03:20,756 --> 00:03:23,356 Speaker 3: somebody wrote that up. Where did that get come? 57 00:03:23,556 --> 00:03:27,116 Speaker 4: I had well, that was a publicity thing long time ago. 58 00:03:27,236 --> 00:03:30,436 Speaker 4: But I have family, and I had family then. But 59 00:03:30,596 --> 00:03:34,516 Speaker 4: my mother had died, and I guess that's why they 60 00:03:34,636 --> 00:03:37,676 Speaker 4: used that. Mind that I was an awphoran, but I 61 00:03:37,716 --> 00:03:38,356 Speaker 4: had family. 62 00:03:38,996 --> 00:03:40,716 Speaker 3: At what age were you when your mother died? 63 00:03:41,476 --> 00:03:46,756 Speaker 4: I was fifteen, about fifteen, because from there we went 64 00:03:46,796 --> 00:03:47,996 Speaker 4: to the amateur contest. 65 00:03:50,276 --> 00:03:52,636 Speaker 2: I was about fifteen, because from there we went to 66 00:03:52,636 --> 00:03:57,556 Speaker 2: the amateur contest. It's not a lie, but she's skipping 67 00:03:57,636 --> 00:04:00,836 Speaker 2: two years of her life, about two years, and she 68 00:04:00,956 --> 00:04:02,876 Speaker 2: always skips these two years of her life when she 69 00:04:02,916 --> 00:04:06,196 Speaker 2: tells this story. And what I want to do today 70 00:04:06,476 --> 00:04:08,596 Speaker 2: is tell you a story about what happens in those 71 00:04:08,636 --> 00:04:12,076 Speaker 2: two years, because it's a story not just about Elip Fitzgerald, 72 00:04:12,316 --> 00:04:14,876 Speaker 2: but kind of crazily a story about the invention of 73 00:04:14,916 --> 00:04:18,956 Speaker 2: this whole realm of social science that she is kind 74 00:04:18,956 --> 00:04:21,636 Speaker 2: of bound up in that I think you'll be interested in, 75 00:04:21,676 --> 00:04:23,956 Speaker 2: not just because it's a very you kind of thing, 76 00:04:24,116 --> 00:04:26,996 Speaker 2: but also because it's a story that takes place half 77 00:04:27,036 --> 00:04:28,396 Speaker 2: a mile from where we're sitting right now. 78 00:04:28,436 --> 00:04:34,476 Speaker 1: Wow, welcome to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked 79 00:04:34,516 --> 00:04:37,756 Speaker 1: and misunderstood. Today in the show, Ben tells me about 80 00:04:37,796 --> 00:04:41,516 Speaker 1: the forgotten origins of social network theory and the missing 81 00:04:41,636 --> 00:04:47,356 Speaker 1: chapter in Ella Fitzgerald's life. It's absolutely Banana's story. Just 82 00:04:47,396 --> 00:04:49,036 Speaker 1: so you know, I'd read a little bit of Ben's 83 00:04:49,076 --> 00:04:51,876 Speaker 1: research before we had this conversation, so I'm a little 84 00:04:51,876 --> 00:04:54,956 Speaker 1: ahead of you, but still just wait, do you see 85 00:04:55,316 --> 00:04:58,956 Speaker 1: how Ella Fitzgerald fits into this whole thing. Before we 86 00:04:58,996 --> 00:05:01,916 Speaker 1: get to her, we have to meet the experimenter, a 87 00:05:01,996 --> 00:05:12,076 Speaker 1: doctor from halfway around the world. Wait, so back up 88 00:05:12,076 --> 00:05:16,436 Speaker 1: for a second. So we begin with this man Jacob. 89 00:05:16,476 --> 00:05:19,036 Speaker 2: What's his middle name, Jacob Levy Marino. 90 00:05:19,116 --> 00:05:21,996 Speaker 1: Jacob Levy Marino. Who is He's Austrian. 91 00:05:22,836 --> 00:05:24,636 Speaker 2: He always claimed that he was born on a boat 92 00:05:24,636 --> 00:05:25,276 Speaker 2: in the Black Sea. 93 00:05:26,196 --> 00:05:31,516 Speaker 5: I was born on the boat the Black Sea, and 94 00:05:31,556 --> 00:05:33,756 Speaker 5: I'll be traveling from one part of the world to 95 00:05:33,956 --> 00:05:36,276 Speaker 5: the others and to find myself. 96 00:05:37,236 --> 00:05:39,196 Speaker 2: Actually, he was just born in eighteen eighty nine in 97 00:05:39,236 --> 00:05:42,516 Speaker 2: Bucharest to a fifteen and a half year old mother 98 00:05:43,036 --> 00:05:46,996 Speaker 2: who had married a traveling salesman father and lived in 99 00:05:46,996 --> 00:05:49,556 Speaker 2: Bucharest I think for the first five or six years 100 00:05:49,556 --> 00:05:51,756 Speaker 2: of his life before moving to Austria. 101 00:05:52,236 --> 00:05:58,356 Speaker 1: He's basically lower middle class Jewish immigrant living in Vienna, 102 00:05:58,396 --> 00:06:01,476 Speaker 1: and yet he ends up getting a pretty serious education. 103 00:06:01,876 --> 00:06:03,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, So he goes to school at the University of Vienna. 104 00:06:03,996 --> 00:06:07,236 Speaker 2: He's studying to be a physician. He becomes really interested 105 00:06:07,436 --> 00:06:11,516 Speaker 2: in psychiatry. He was noted on campus for walking around 106 00:06:11,596 --> 00:06:13,996 Speaker 2: in a long green cloak and letting his beard grow 107 00:06:13,996 --> 00:06:15,276 Speaker 2: in a way that no one else is letting in 108 00:06:15,316 --> 00:06:17,316 Speaker 2: their beard grow and he never wear a hat. So 109 00:06:17,356 --> 00:06:20,236 Speaker 2: he's just sort of striking larger than life figure on campus, 110 00:06:20,236 --> 00:06:22,596 Speaker 2: which is kind of like it's always been the thing 111 00:06:22,636 --> 00:06:24,876 Speaker 2: with him since he was a kid, like this. This story. 112 00:06:24,956 --> 00:06:27,436 Speaker 2: His mother always told this story that one day she 113 00:06:27,516 --> 00:06:29,556 Speaker 2: was holding him on the street and a woman was 114 00:06:29,556 --> 00:06:32,316 Speaker 2: walking by and pointed at him and said, one day 115 00:06:32,356 --> 00:06:34,436 Speaker 2: that boy will become a very great man. People will 116 00:06:34,436 --> 00:06:36,636 Speaker 2: come from all over the world to see him. And 117 00:06:36,716 --> 00:06:39,836 Speaker 2: so he had this kind of like self described megalomania 118 00:06:40,396 --> 00:06:44,956 Speaker 2: and literally would play god as a child, which is 119 00:06:44,956 --> 00:06:47,356 Speaker 2: a thing he continued to do for his whole life. 120 00:06:47,956 --> 00:06:51,476 Speaker 1: So he's part of the intellectual scene in Vienna. Yeah, 121 00:06:51,516 --> 00:06:53,396 Speaker 1: and then makes his way to the United States. 122 00:06:54,356 --> 00:06:56,876 Speaker 2: Yes, so he makes his way to the United States 123 00:06:56,876 --> 00:07:01,756 Speaker 2: after World War One, and you know, psychodrama at this 124 00:07:01,796 --> 00:07:03,196 Speaker 2: point is sort of his big idea. 125 00:07:03,316 --> 00:07:06,796 Speaker 1: Well, wait to find psychodrama is doing. 126 00:07:06,836 --> 00:07:08,796 Speaker 2: So it's like, you have a problem you want to 127 00:07:08,796 --> 00:07:11,516 Speaker 2: work through the common way of working through that problem 128 00:07:11,636 --> 00:07:13,716 Speaker 2: is to go to a psychoanalyst office and lie down 129 00:07:13,756 --> 00:07:16,596 Speaker 2: on the couch and just talk about your problem. He thought, 130 00:07:16,956 --> 00:07:19,316 Speaker 2: you have a problem, you bring it to the stage 131 00:07:19,876 --> 00:07:22,836 Speaker 2: and you act out whatever problem you're having, and you 132 00:07:23,196 --> 00:07:26,196 Speaker 2: have this kind of dynamic way of engaging with the 133 00:07:26,236 --> 00:07:29,636 Speaker 2: issues you were facing, and then that would help you 134 00:07:29,716 --> 00:07:32,836 Speaker 2: either have a catharsist and break through it or just 135 00:07:32,916 --> 00:07:35,836 Speaker 2: like reimagine your own role within the problems you were 136 00:07:35,876 --> 00:07:38,756 Speaker 2: having such that you no longer have them. So what 137 00:07:38,836 --> 00:07:42,996 Speaker 2: he's really interested in is creative spontaneity. He thinks of 138 00:07:43,116 --> 00:07:45,876 Speaker 2: children as a model. He did a lot of tutoring 139 00:07:45,916 --> 00:07:49,796 Speaker 2: when he was in medical school, and he basically felt 140 00:07:49,836 --> 00:07:53,036 Speaker 2: like the creative spontaneity kids have is a thing he 141 00:07:53,076 --> 00:07:55,676 Speaker 2: wanted to give to everybody, like you can when you're 142 00:07:55,716 --> 00:07:58,636 Speaker 2: like watch a group of kids playing, which he did 143 00:07:58,676 --> 00:08:00,636 Speaker 2: a lot when he was a tutor, they just kind 144 00:08:00,676 --> 00:08:03,156 Speaker 2: of like pick up roles immediately. And he'd see these 145 00:08:03,196 --> 00:08:05,596 Speaker 2: groups of kids, you know, like, how does everyone decide 146 00:08:05,596 --> 00:08:08,156 Speaker 2: all of a sudden they're playing cops and robbers or 147 00:08:08,236 --> 00:08:11,116 Speaker 2: just sort of lock into some sort of performance and 148 00:08:11,156 --> 00:08:15,036 Speaker 2: communicate it in an almost unspoken, instantaneous way. That sort 149 00:08:15,076 --> 00:08:18,796 Speaker 2: of self creative freedom was a thing that he thought 150 00:08:18,996 --> 00:08:23,836 Speaker 2: everybody should have. So his therapeutic theater stuff is really 151 00:08:23,836 --> 00:08:26,116 Speaker 2: an attempt to figure out how does that work. Where 152 00:08:26,156 --> 00:08:28,556 Speaker 2: does that spark come from? What are the dynamics between 153 00:08:28,556 --> 00:08:31,676 Speaker 2: these people? What's a systematic way to think about those 154 00:08:31,756 --> 00:08:35,756 Speaker 2: dynamics that promotes this kind of spontaneous interaction between them. 155 00:08:36,316 --> 00:08:42,076 Speaker 2: That preoccupation of his is where social network analysis comes from, 156 00:08:42,356 --> 00:08:44,796 Speaker 2: is basically like how can I study a group and 157 00:08:44,836 --> 00:08:47,356 Speaker 2: figure out how the ideas are moving within the group 158 00:08:47,516 --> 00:08:50,036 Speaker 2: and make it sort of rigorous in a way. He's 159 00:08:50,076 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 2: really preoccupied with this question what goes on with a 160 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:57,156 Speaker 2: group of people because he's stuck between psychoanalysis, which is 161 00:08:57,156 --> 00:09:00,796 Speaker 2: all about the individual and the self, and a lot 162 00:09:00,836 --> 00:09:03,236 Speaker 2: of the social sciences in the nineteen twenties, which are 163 00:09:03,276 --> 00:09:07,436 Speaker 2: these kind of big static numbers like averages or like 164 00:09:07,476 --> 00:09:09,276 Speaker 2: the sort of information you get from a poll. 165 00:09:09,556 --> 00:09:13,276 Speaker 1: So his principal objection to psychoanalysis is the fact that 166 00:09:13,956 --> 00:09:17,356 Speaker 1: it's too focused on the individual on it self. Yeah, 167 00:09:17,476 --> 00:09:19,716 Speaker 1: it seemsus maybe it seems it seems like it would 168 00:09:19,716 --> 00:09:22,276 Speaker 1: seemed decadent to him to lie on a couch and 169 00:09:22,316 --> 00:09:23,596 Speaker 1: talk about yourself endlessly. 170 00:09:23,916 --> 00:09:25,996 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, he used to talk about this all the time. 171 00:09:26,436 --> 00:09:28,076 Speaker 6: That's did people who go on the couch for six 172 00:09:28,116 --> 00:09:31,756 Speaker 6: eight years, spending twenty thousand dollars and so for us, 173 00:09:31,876 --> 00:09:34,116 Speaker 6: and then they come to us, and what do we do? 174 00:09:34,156 --> 00:09:36,076 Speaker 5: We let him act out the problem as it is 175 00:09:36,436 --> 00:09:37,396 Speaker 5: on the Reality lib. 176 00:09:39,036 --> 00:09:40,916 Speaker 2: That tape is from where Cooper Union. 177 00:09:41,076 --> 00:09:41,836 Speaker 1: He's giving a talk. 178 00:09:41,956 --> 00:09:45,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like nineteen sixty something, so it's later in life, 179 00:09:45,916 --> 00:09:47,196 Speaker 2: so he never really got over it. 180 00:09:47,276 --> 00:09:50,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk a little about the how does 181 00:09:50,076 --> 00:09:53,116 Speaker 1: he what is this big experiment at how does he 182 00:09:53,156 --> 00:09:53,956 Speaker 1: come to conduct it? 183 00:09:54,396 --> 00:09:59,556 Speaker 2: So basically, he's he's in New York. He's got this 184 00:09:59,756 --> 00:10:03,036 Speaker 2: improv theater that like the critics all hate at Carnegie Hall. 185 00:10:03,596 --> 00:10:07,676 Speaker 2: And one day a Columbia graduate student in sociology named 186 00:10:07,676 --> 00:10:13,556 Speaker 2: Helen Hall Jennings come to the improv theater and somehow 187 00:10:13,876 --> 00:10:16,796 Speaker 2: they identify that they're both really interested in this question 188 00:10:16,876 --> 00:10:21,716 Speaker 2: of rigorously figuring out the way groups work. And Moreno, 189 00:10:21,836 --> 00:10:23,636 Speaker 2: as you can tell, is sort of like all over 190 00:10:23,676 --> 00:10:28,676 Speaker 2: the place and wasn't a super focused or rigorous person, 191 00:10:28,756 --> 00:10:31,436 Speaker 2: but had just a crazy number of ideas that were 192 00:10:31,476 --> 00:10:35,396 Speaker 2: really pretty insightful. And what Helen Hall Jennings had was 193 00:10:35,676 --> 00:10:40,876 Speaker 2: an extremely rigorous math background and also connections. And when 194 00:10:40,916 --> 00:10:42,996 Speaker 2: they sort of figured out that they had this thing 195 00:10:43,036 --> 00:10:46,316 Speaker 2: income and this interest they began working with each other, 196 00:10:46,396 --> 00:10:50,636 Speaker 2: and so they begin to work up a science for 197 00:10:50,796 --> 00:10:53,556 Speaker 2: mapping the way groups work. So they begin to go 198 00:10:53,556 --> 00:10:56,036 Speaker 2: to classrooms. It was like a Brooklyn public school. They 199 00:10:56,076 --> 00:10:58,316 Speaker 2: go to where they ask all the kids, like who 200 00:10:58,316 --> 00:11:00,476 Speaker 2: do you most want to sit next to? And then 201 00:11:00,516 --> 00:11:03,796 Speaker 2: they start creating diagrams of like how successfully integrated the classroom. 202 00:11:03,836 --> 00:11:05,396 Speaker 2: It's like, are people sitting next to the kids they 203 00:11:05,436 --> 00:11:07,916 Speaker 2: want to sit next to? They go to sing Sing prison, 204 00:11:08,556 --> 00:11:11,076 Speaker 2: but the thing is like they're kind of fiddling around 205 00:11:11,076 --> 00:11:13,876 Speaker 2: the edges, like these are small experiments and what they 206 00:11:13,876 --> 00:11:17,796 Speaker 2: need is a really big experiment. And they kind of 207 00:11:18,276 --> 00:11:23,276 Speaker 2: luck into meeting this woman named Fanny French Morse, who's 208 00:11:23,316 --> 00:11:26,676 Speaker 2: the superintendent of the New York State Training School for Girls, 209 00:11:27,036 --> 00:11:30,996 Speaker 2: which is women's reformatory located half a mile from here. Like, 210 00:11:31,076 --> 00:11:33,276 Speaker 2: go out the door, turn right, walk down the street, 211 00:11:33,316 --> 00:11:34,356 Speaker 2: and we'd be there. 212 00:11:34,796 --> 00:11:36,476 Speaker 1: I mean, I go running up to that place all 213 00:11:36,516 --> 00:11:38,556 Speaker 1: the time. It's a prison, now. 214 00:11:38,596 --> 00:11:41,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's a place that really creeps me out. 215 00:11:41,196 --> 00:11:45,956 Speaker 2: But the history of reformatories and the juvenile justice system, 216 00:11:46,036 --> 00:11:48,556 Speaker 2: that's one of the big accomplishments of the progressive era 217 00:11:49,116 --> 00:11:52,276 Speaker 2: is this idea we should not be treating kids who 218 00:11:52,276 --> 00:11:54,756 Speaker 2: commit crimes the way we treat adults who commit crimes, 219 00:11:55,156 --> 00:11:58,636 Speaker 2: because on some level people thought kids can change more 220 00:11:58,636 --> 00:12:01,076 Speaker 2: than adults can. So rather than like locking them in 221 00:12:01,076 --> 00:12:04,716 Speaker 2: a prison in a city with a bunch of adult criminals, 222 00:12:05,156 --> 00:12:07,556 Speaker 2: they should have a different court system. They could be 223 00:12:07,636 --> 00:12:09,796 Speaker 2: charged for different things. Like a lot of young girls 224 00:12:09,796 --> 00:12:13,516 Speaker 2: were sent to reform schools just for being incorrigible or ungovernable, 225 00:12:13,876 --> 00:12:16,596 Speaker 2: but they were sent to these places that were always 226 00:12:16,596 --> 00:12:19,836 Speaker 2: in bucolic settings that were meant to take them out 227 00:12:19,876 --> 00:12:22,436 Speaker 2: of contaminated cities and put them in places where they 228 00:12:22,476 --> 00:12:25,996 Speaker 2: could become better versions of themselves. And so if Fanny 229 00:12:26,036 --> 00:12:29,196 Speaker 2: frenchmore s runds the Hudson One, and it's always on 230 00:12:29,236 --> 00:12:31,876 Speaker 2: the cusp of being a prison or a school, and 231 00:12:31,916 --> 00:12:33,836 Speaker 2: so it's constantly a need of being reformed because it 232 00:12:33,836 --> 00:12:35,836 Speaker 2: gets too strict or it gets too punitive, and they 233 00:12:35,836 --> 00:12:40,036 Speaker 2: need to make it more re educative instead. And she's 234 00:12:40,076 --> 00:12:45,796 Speaker 2: this lifelong progressive reformer who takes over the training school 235 00:12:45,916 --> 00:12:49,276 Speaker 2: when it's become basically a prison, and she's kind of 236 00:12:49,276 --> 00:12:51,116 Speaker 2: like a legend in this field. The first night she 237 00:12:51,156 --> 00:12:53,036 Speaker 2: takes over, she makes a huge pile on the lawn 238 00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:55,756 Speaker 2: of all of the straight jackets and the restraining sheets 239 00:12:55,756 --> 00:12:57,996 Speaker 2: and the prison uniforms, and she lights it on fire. 240 00:12:58,596 --> 00:13:01,396 Speaker 2: So she's this firebrand reformer who's really trying to do 241 00:13:01,476 --> 00:13:05,196 Speaker 2: something at this school. She introduces art, she buys a farm, 242 00:13:05,276 --> 00:13:08,396 Speaker 2: she gets all these antiques that the girls start reworking, 243 00:13:09,156 --> 00:13:12,316 Speaker 2: trying to give them an aesthetic education. But notably, the 244 00:13:12,396 --> 00:13:15,316 Speaker 2: thing that the training school really does is it's a 245 00:13:15,396 --> 00:13:18,716 Speaker 2: miniature version of society. So if any French, Morris invites 246 00:13:18,996 --> 00:13:22,516 Speaker 2: jail Moreno and Helen Hall Jennings to the school, which 247 00:13:22,556 --> 00:13:25,636 Speaker 2: is thrilling to them because it's a totally closed environment. 248 00:13:25,716 --> 00:13:30,476 Speaker 2: That's this microcosm of society with five hundred girls who 249 00:13:31,076 --> 00:13:34,276 Speaker 2: are arranged in brick cottages with nice lattice work trim. 250 00:13:34,756 --> 00:13:39,996 Speaker 2: So jail Moreno moves to Hudson with Helen Hall Jennings. 251 00:13:39,596 --> 00:13:43,356 Speaker 1: And he goes for it because he's living. Is he 252 00:13:43,396 --> 00:13:46,116 Speaker 1: at this point well known, what's his level. 253 00:13:45,916 --> 00:13:48,156 Speaker 2: Of He's becoming better known. But he is a person 254 00:13:48,196 --> 00:13:51,356 Speaker 2: who wants to be operating on the biggest scale possible, 255 00:13:51,876 --> 00:13:54,716 Speaker 2: and this scale of experiment is an opportunity for him 256 00:13:54,716 --> 00:13:58,276 Speaker 2: to do that. So I think he sees it as 257 00:13:58,276 --> 00:13:58,956 Speaker 2: a big break. 258 00:13:59,156 --> 00:14:03,276 Speaker 1: So the European genius Meglomaniac and his brilliant data minded 259 00:14:03,316 --> 00:14:07,476 Speaker 1: research partner get on the train from Manhattan, come up 260 00:14:07,516 --> 00:14:12,916 Speaker 1: two hours to Hudson to conduct one of the first 261 00:14:14,276 --> 00:14:18,076 Speaker 1: and most dramatic experiments of his kind ever. 262 00:14:18,796 --> 00:14:20,676 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's exactly right. 263 00:14:20,596 --> 00:14:27,476 Speaker 1: An attempt to understand the social dynamics of a girl's 264 00:14:27,516 --> 00:14:30,716 Speaker 1: prison reform school. There are five hundred girls in this school. 265 00:14:30,796 --> 00:14:31,876 Speaker 2: Roughly five hundred girls. 266 00:14:31,996 --> 00:14:35,156 Speaker 1: Yeah, So he descends on the school, he and Helen 267 00:14:35,196 --> 00:14:37,436 Speaker 1: hel Jennings and what do they do. 268 00:14:38,156 --> 00:14:41,156 Speaker 2: So the first thing they do is they hand out 269 00:14:41,236 --> 00:14:45,316 Speaker 2: questionnaires to all the girls. That's say, you know, choose 270 00:14:45,556 --> 00:14:48,596 Speaker 2: the top five girls in this community that you want 271 00:14:48,636 --> 00:14:52,116 Speaker 2: to live with and now and tell us why, and 272 00:14:52,156 --> 00:14:54,436 Speaker 2: then choose the five girls that you absolutely do not 273 00:14:54,476 --> 00:14:57,996 Speaker 2: want to live with. And so it's kind of reading 274 00:14:57,996 --> 00:15:00,876 Speaker 2: his account of this, it's like really dense. I mean, 275 00:15:00,876 --> 00:15:02,716 Speaker 2: he doesn't really write in English very well at this 276 00:15:02,716 --> 00:15:05,276 Speaker 2: point in his life, and there's a ton of data, 277 00:15:05,556 --> 00:15:08,116 Speaker 2: but you get these kind of reprints of the things 278 00:15:08,116 --> 00:15:10,676 Speaker 2: that the girls say. So we actually had an actress 279 00:15:10,876 --> 00:15:12,276 Speaker 2: read one of them out, and this is One of 280 00:15:12,316 --> 00:15:16,116 Speaker 2: the comments in the questionnaire Dee, I want in my 281 00:15:16,236 --> 00:15:18,796 Speaker 2: cottage because I feel towards her, like she is my 282 00:15:18,876 --> 00:15:22,236 Speaker 2: little sister I never had any and I like to 283 00:15:22,236 --> 00:15:22,956 Speaker 2: take care of her. 284 00:15:23,916 --> 00:15:26,676 Speaker 3: Mostly she's just a lonesome little child you. 285 00:15:26,716 --> 00:15:27,716 Speaker 5: Just have to be fond of. 286 00:15:28,836 --> 00:15:31,396 Speaker 2: So they like gather all these questionnaires from the girls 287 00:15:31,556 --> 00:15:33,796 Speaker 2: about how they feel about each other, and then they 288 00:15:33,836 --> 00:15:36,556 Speaker 2: begin to calculate from that, you know, where are their 289 00:15:36,636 --> 00:15:40,596 Speaker 2: mutual attractions, where does everyone hate each other? And like 290 00:15:40,756 --> 00:15:43,556 Speaker 2: to what degree do these cottage groupings even make sense? 291 00:15:43,596 --> 00:15:45,316 Speaker 2: And they want to start putting a number to that. 292 00:15:45,916 --> 00:15:48,556 Speaker 2: But it's not just the questionnaires. They begin to do 293 00:15:48,596 --> 00:15:50,996 Speaker 2: a lot of observing of the girls, like watching them 294 00:15:51,036 --> 00:15:53,156 Speaker 2: work in the steam laundry, watching them make rugs, or 295 00:15:53,196 --> 00:15:57,196 Speaker 2: like shine up antiques, and that becomes data too, And 296 00:15:57,276 --> 00:15:59,636 Speaker 2: all of this is used in service of figuring out 297 00:15:59,956 --> 00:16:02,996 Speaker 2: who's isolated in the community, who's rejected by the community, 298 00:16:03,036 --> 00:16:07,036 Speaker 2: who's beloved by the community. But they're observing everything they're collecting, 299 00:16:07,076 --> 00:16:09,996 Speaker 2: like Marina at one point says, they collect ten thousand 300 00:16:09,996 --> 00:16:14,076 Speaker 2: pages of data. And one of the things about this 301 00:16:14,156 --> 00:16:17,156 Speaker 2: new science is you have that much data and you 302 00:16:17,196 --> 00:16:20,156 Speaker 2: can't conceive of it all like it's before computers. There's 303 00:16:20,196 --> 00:16:24,156 Speaker 2: no way to really understand what that all means except 304 00:16:24,156 --> 00:16:27,396 Speaker 2: for a map, and that is the critical thing that 305 00:16:27,436 --> 00:16:32,236 Speaker 2: they do is create these really intricate maps of what 306 00:16:32,276 --> 00:16:35,716 Speaker 2: the community looks like. So like this this map right 307 00:16:35,716 --> 00:16:39,396 Speaker 2: here is the entire community of the school. 308 00:16:40,516 --> 00:16:43,596 Speaker 1: Oh wow, it looks like a looks like a giant 309 00:16:43,636 --> 00:16:54,316 Speaker 1: spider's web. Yeah, And he has nodes one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, twelve, thirteen. 310 00:16:55,036 --> 00:16:57,316 Speaker 1: Is each one of these nodes a group of girls 311 00:16:57,396 --> 00:16:58,236 Speaker 1: or a single girl? 312 00:16:58,276 --> 00:17:00,436 Speaker 2: Each one of those big circles is a cottage? 313 00:17:00,716 --> 00:17:00,836 Speaker 7: Oh? 314 00:17:00,956 --> 00:17:04,356 Speaker 1: I see, Oh I see no, But I've been putting 315 00:17:04,396 --> 00:17:07,916 Speaker 1: any further. Do we believe these maps? Say, do we 316 00:17:07,916 --> 00:17:11,436 Speaker 1: think he is actually act? You're accurately capturing the patterns 317 00:17:11,476 --> 00:17:14,076 Speaker 1: of relationships and influence within the community. 318 00:17:14,716 --> 00:17:17,996 Speaker 2: I think he misses a lot. And also there's this 319 00:17:18,076 --> 00:17:20,716 Speaker 2: kind of forced thing about it, like none of these 320 00:17:20,716 --> 00:17:22,876 Speaker 2: girls are consenting to it, Like who knows about if 321 00:17:22,916 --> 00:17:25,876 Speaker 2: they're telling him the truth? But I think that there 322 00:17:25,996 --> 00:17:29,836 Speaker 2: is genuine insight there. And one of the reasons is 323 00:17:30,796 --> 00:17:34,036 Speaker 2: there's this thing that happens. It starts on the Halloween 324 00:17:34,116 --> 00:17:37,556 Speaker 2: night of nineteen thirty two, there's a party in one 325 00:17:37,596 --> 00:17:43,236 Speaker 2: of the cottages and somebody creates a distraction and two 326 00:17:43,316 --> 00:17:45,876 Speaker 2: of the girls, Ruth and Marie, run away from the cottage. 327 00:17:47,436 --> 00:17:50,116 Speaker 2: And then something really weird happens, Like, over a total 328 00:17:50,156 --> 00:17:53,876 Speaker 2: of fourteen days, fourteen girls run away. It's kind of 329 00:17:53,876 --> 00:17:57,356 Speaker 2: this chain reaction. Nobody really understands why it's happening, but 330 00:17:57,476 --> 00:18:00,716 Speaker 2: it's like a runaway rate that's thirty times higher than normal. 331 00:18:00,876 --> 00:18:04,076 Speaker 2: And this happens after Marine has collected a lot of 332 00:18:04,116 --> 00:18:04,796 Speaker 2: his data. 333 00:18:04,996 --> 00:18:10,916 Speaker 1: He has an outbreak essentially of girls who are who 334 00:18:10,996 --> 00:18:14,396 Speaker 1: get this idea to flee, to run away. Yeah, and 335 00:18:14,436 --> 00:18:17,276 Speaker 1: he's trying to trace was he trying to trying to 336 00:18:17,316 --> 00:18:19,796 Speaker 1: trace the source of the outbreak or to see how 337 00:18:19,796 --> 00:18:23,996 Speaker 1: the idea of running away had traveled through the community. 338 00:18:24,116 --> 00:18:25,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's trying to see how the idea of running 339 00:18:25,916 --> 00:18:28,276 Speaker 2: away travels through the community. Which is this kind of 340 00:18:28,876 --> 00:18:31,116 Speaker 2: you know, you talk about this a lot, this idea 341 00:18:31,116 --> 00:18:33,996 Speaker 2: of an idea being contagious. He posits that there's not 342 00:18:34,196 --> 00:18:37,076 Speaker 2: some central reason why the girls are running away. 343 00:18:37,356 --> 00:18:41,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so is he saying that his hypothesis would 344 00:18:41,116 --> 00:18:45,596 Speaker 1: be the group who run away are all linked, are 345 00:18:45,596 --> 00:18:48,356 Speaker 1: intimately linked according to his network analysis. 346 00:18:48,476 --> 00:18:53,076 Speaker 2: Yes, so that's his explanation, and so he and Jennings 347 00:18:53,116 --> 00:18:55,356 Speaker 2: go to their maps and try and figure out if 348 00:18:55,356 --> 00:18:57,596 Speaker 2: it's true. What his theory is that there's some way 349 00:18:57,636 --> 00:19:00,316 Speaker 2: that this impulse to run away is traveling through the 350 00:19:00,396 --> 00:19:04,396 Speaker 2: network of girls, and he and Jennings trace this in 351 00:19:04,436 --> 00:19:07,996 Speaker 2: the map and then call it proof that networks exist. 352 00:19:08,436 --> 00:19:11,036 Speaker 2: And one of the rea he's confident in it is 353 00:19:11,076 --> 00:19:14,676 Speaker 2: because then based on those same questionnaires about who likes whom, 354 00:19:14,756 --> 00:19:18,196 Speaker 2: who doesn't like whom, he rearranges the cottages and over 355 00:19:18,236 --> 00:19:21,756 Speaker 2: the next some period of months, the number of runaways 356 00:19:21,916 --> 00:19:25,836 Speaker 2: dwindles pretty radically. And so the thought is that's the 357 00:19:25,916 --> 00:19:29,236 Speaker 2: evidence that this is in some way meaningful, is that 358 00:19:29,316 --> 00:19:31,116 Speaker 2: the rearrangement seems to work. 359 00:19:31,196 --> 00:19:34,076 Speaker 1: This whole thing is started by two girls. Yeah, what 360 00:19:34,116 --> 00:19:37,356 Speaker 1: does network theory tell us about those who originate the epidemic? 361 00:19:37,676 --> 00:19:39,636 Speaker 1: Were they socially influential girls? 362 00:19:39,876 --> 00:19:43,716 Speaker 2: So no, they're actually like pretty isolated girls. So this 363 00:19:43,996 --> 00:19:46,996 Speaker 2: is like a map of them. That's one of those 364 00:19:47,036 --> 00:19:49,876 Speaker 2: is Ruth, and one of those is Marie. And basically, 365 00:19:49,956 --> 00:19:53,636 Speaker 2: like red lines are are lines of attraction, Black lines 366 00:19:53,676 --> 00:19:57,276 Speaker 2: are lines of rejection, and so they're really close. They 367 00:19:57,316 --> 00:19:59,436 Speaker 2: dislike the same people, they like the same people. They 368 00:19:59,436 --> 00:20:02,116 Speaker 2: really like each other. But on the broader map, not 369 00:20:02,156 --> 00:20:04,556 Speaker 2: a lot of lines of influence run towards them, except for, 370 00:20:04,636 --> 00:20:06,996 Speaker 2: you know, a couple significant ones that connect them to 371 00:20:07,036 --> 00:20:08,876 Speaker 2: the people who then begin to run away next. 372 00:20:10,516 --> 00:20:14,276 Speaker 1: Oh, I see, so they Our first observation is the 373 00:20:14,316 --> 00:20:18,356 Speaker 1: two who begin the epidemic are closely bound to each 374 00:20:18,396 --> 00:20:20,996 Speaker 1: other but isolated from everyone else. So there's a little 375 00:20:21,076 --> 00:20:24,476 Speaker 1: social there's not a lot of glue holding them in place. 376 00:20:24,596 --> 00:20:27,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not like the most popular girls in the 377 00:20:27,956 --> 00:20:31,636 Speaker 2: reformatory runaway and then everyone follows suit. But like with 378 00:20:31,716 --> 00:20:34,516 Speaker 2: all of this stuff, it's there's only so much he's seeing, 379 00:20:34,516 --> 00:20:36,596 Speaker 2: and there's only so much he's allowing himself to say. 380 00:20:36,676 --> 00:20:39,436 Speaker 2: And they also have this agenda of proving that their 381 00:20:39,476 --> 00:20:42,396 Speaker 2: science works. Their account is the only account we have 382 00:20:43,076 --> 00:20:45,916 Speaker 2: of what actually happened and how successful their stuff was. 383 00:20:46,556 --> 00:20:47,876 Speaker 2: But so this is his explanation. 384 00:20:48,196 --> 00:20:50,596 Speaker 1: But he's got this big idea, and he and Jennings 385 00:20:50,596 --> 00:20:53,436 Speaker 1: have the evidence he thinks proves it. How does he 386 00:20:53,476 --> 00:20:54,276 Speaker 1: get the word out? 387 00:20:54,796 --> 00:20:57,276 Speaker 2: Actually, the first place, he publishes as results it's kind 388 00:20:57,276 --> 00:21:00,476 Speaker 2: of like a science fair. Is this big physicians conference 389 00:21:00,516 --> 00:21:03,316 Speaker 2: that happens at the Waldorf Astoria in Manhattan. I think 390 00:21:03,356 --> 00:21:06,396 Speaker 2: it happens on like April second, nineteen thirty three. He 391 00:21:06,476 --> 00:21:08,236 Speaker 2: goes to the waldorfath story, he takes the train down 392 00:21:08,236 --> 00:21:10,276 Speaker 2: from Hudson, goes the water for his storia. They put 393 00:21:10,276 --> 00:21:12,996 Speaker 2: the maps on the walls and it's kind of a 394 00:21:12,996 --> 00:21:14,836 Speaker 2: big deal. Like The New York Times writes a story 395 00:21:14,876 --> 00:21:18,156 Speaker 2: that says, like emotions mapped by new geography. He calls 396 00:21:18,196 --> 00:21:21,236 Speaker 2: it psychological geography. He's riding high. He says he's going 397 00:21:21,276 --> 00:21:22,756 Speaker 2: to make a map of all the emotions in New 398 00:21:22,836 --> 00:21:27,596 Speaker 2: York City. And that's the first place he publishes it. 399 00:21:27,836 --> 00:21:30,076 Speaker 2: But then he goes back to the school. And it's 400 00:21:30,116 --> 00:21:32,276 Speaker 2: a year after that the book comes out called Who 401 00:21:32,276 --> 00:21:35,036 Speaker 2: Shall Survive? She's the book you have which is this? 402 00:21:35,036 --> 00:21:36,836 Speaker 2: This is actually one of the original books. This is 403 00:21:36,836 --> 00:21:38,756 Speaker 2: from nineteen thirty four. I took it out from the 404 00:21:38,796 --> 00:21:44,116 Speaker 2: library and it's like a year overdue now. So that's 405 00:21:44,156 --> 00:21:47,836 Speaker 2: if anyone's listening to this, I will be returning it someday. 406 00:21:48,796 --> 00:21:52,396 Speaker 1: That's a Pushkin promise. We always return our library books. 407 00:21:52,676 --> 00:21:54,796 Speaker 1: And after the break, we'll find out what all this 408 00:21:54,876 --> 00:22:09,316 Speaker 1: research has to do with el Fitzgerald. Okay, back did 409 00:22:09,316 --> 00:22:13,156 Speaker 1: the reformatory. The social scientist JAYL. Moreno and his research 410 00:22:13,196 --> 00:22:16,276 Speaker 1: partner Helen Hall Jennings had been making a study of 411 00:22:16,276 --> 00:22:18,836 Speaker 1: a girl's reform school down the street from where we 412 00:22:18,876 --> 00:22:22,436 Speaker 1: are right now in Hudson. It's the nineteen thirties. They've 413 00:22:22,516 --> 00:22:25,236 Speaker 1: just debuted some of their research in Manhattan at the 414 00:22:25,276 --> 00:22:30,036 Speaker 1: Waldorf Astoria. Big deal. And then someone new shows up 415 00:22:30,036 --> 00:22:32,036 Speaker 1: at the school, right Ben. 416 00:22:32,796 --> 00:22:38,356 Speaker 2: Yes, sixteen days after he publishes all this stuff on 417 00:22:38,356 --> 00:22:41,476 Speaker 2: the walls of the Waldorf Astoria, a new girl has 418 00:22:41,556 --> 00:22:45,756 Speaker 2: checked into the Hudson Reformatory. Ella Fitzgerald. 419 00:22:46,436 --> 00:22:50,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the most one of the most famous 420 00:22:50,836 --> 00:22:54,876 Speaker 1: and extraordinary singers of the twentieth century. 421 00:22:54,556 --> 00:22:58,236 Speaker 2: Who, unbeknownst to everyone in her lifetime, was an inmate 422 00:22:58,276 --> 00:23:00,716 Speaker 2: at the school in between the time when her mom 423 00:23:00,796 --> 00:23:03,636 Speaker 2: died and the day that she became famous at the 424 00:23:03,636 --> 00:23:05,676 Speaker 2: Apollo Theater singing in an amateur contest. 425 00:23:06,796 --> 00:23:12,316 Speaker 4: I was fifteen, because from there we went to the 426 00:23:12,356 --> 00:23:13,756 Speaker 4: amateur contest. 427 00:23:13,956 --> 00:23:17,716 Speaker 2: She never talked publicly about this fact that she was 428 00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:20,636 Speaker 2: an inmate at the training school for girls, and it 429 00:23:20,676 --> 00:23:24,596 Speaker 2: wasn't even known publicly until after her death in the nineties, 430 00:23:24,636 --> 00:23:28,396 Speaker 2: when this intrepid investigative reporter Nina Bernstein figured it out. 431 00:23:28,716 --> 00:23:31,356 Speaker 2: But what we know is she's at the training school 432 00:23:31,356 --> 00:23:35,116 Speaker 2: starting April eighteenth, nineteen thirty three. When she's held, it's 433 00:23:35,156 --> 00:23:37,876 Speaker 2: like a week before her sixteenth birthday because her mother 434 00:23:37,916 --> 00:23:41,436 Speaker 2: has just died. So her mother dies when she's fifteen, yeah, 435 00:23:41,636 --> 00:23:44,876 Speaker 2: and she starts to take odd jobs, so she's running numbers. 436 00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:47,636 Speaker 2: She's a lookout for a brothel. She gets picked up 437 00:23:47,636 --> 00:23:52,476 Speaker 2: by the cops, sentenced to the training school, and she 438 00:23:52,556 --> 00:23:55,996 Speaker 2: checks in just over two weeks after Moreno's shown his 439 00:23:56,036 --> 00:23:59,476 Speaker 2: first diagrams from the research. She's then there for like 440 00:23:59,516 --> 00:24:02,996 Speaker 2: about a year, and what we know of her time 441 00:24:03,036 --> 00:24:06,876 Speaker 2: there is through Nina Bernstein's reporting talking to people who 442 00:24:06,876 --> 00:24:09,916 Speaker 2: worked at the training school and remembered her. They would 443 00:24:10,076 --> 00:24:12,156 Speaker 2: ask her to come back to be to talk to 444 00:24:12,156 --> 00:24:15,516 Speaker 2: the girls, and she never would, so Bernstein talked to 445 00:24:15,556 --> 00:24:18,156 Speaker 2: them about what's known about her. You know, people remember 446 00:24:18,236 --> 00:24:21,636 Speaker 2: she had amazing penmanship, she was an excellent student. One 447 00:24:21,716 --> 00:24:24,196 Speaker 2: day she was invited to a church nearby with a 448 00:24:24,196 --> 00:24:25,996 Speaker 2: group of the black girls who liked to sing and 449 00:24:26,196 --> 00:24:28,396 Speaker 2: was said to have sung her heart out, but she 450 00:24:28,596 --> 00:24:31,636 Speaker 2: was there at the time that the study was being made, 451 00:24:32,356 --> 00:24:36,676 Speaker 2: and her experience there's significant to me, not just because 452 00:24:36,676 --> 00:24:39,676 Speaker 2: she's a really famous person who intersects with this place, 453 00:24:40,116 --> 00:24:43,996 Speaker 2: but because it blies Loreno's study, like it shows what's 454 00:24:43,996 --> 00:24:47,356 Speaker 2: actually happening there that's not captured in his maps and 455 00:24:47,676 --> 00:24:48,276 Speaker 2: new science. 456 00:24:49,316 --> 00:24:52,236 Speaker 1: And sure enough she. 457 00:24:51,116 --> 00:24:53,876 Speaker 2: She is thought to have run away. Yeah, so basically 458 00:24:54,796 --> 00:24:57,396 Speaker 2: she's checked in there. What we know from Nina Eernstein's 459 00:24:57,396 --> 00:25:00,396 Speaker 2: reporting is she wasn't allowed to sing in the all 460 00:25:00,436 --> 00:25:03,076 Speaker 2: white choir, must have stayed one of the two cottages 461 00:25:03,076 --> 00:25:05,276 Speaker 2: the black girls were allowed to live in, probably like 462 00:25:05,316 --> 00:25:06,996 Speaker 2: all of the black girls had to do laundry for 463 00:25:06,996 --> 00:25:08,716 Speaker 2: the white girls. But she was also kept in the 464 00:25:08,756 --> 00:25:10,916 Speaker 2: basement of one of the colleges at the training school 465 00:25:10,956 --> 00:25:15,876 Speaker 2: and beaten. But then there's this vagueness around how she 466 00:25:15,956 --> 00:25:18,516 Speaker 2: leaves the training school. But because of the parole records, 467 00:25:18,876 --> 00:25:22,116 Speaker 2: it's plausible that she ran away and she's living back 468 00:25:22,156 --> 00:25:27,076 Speaker 2: in New York, I think in Yonkers, and she's homeless, 469 00:25:27,076 --> 00:25:30,676 Speaker 2: like she's wearing ragged clothes, and she and a group 470 00:25:30,716 --> 00:25:35,596 Speaker 2: of her friends decide to enter the amateur Talent Night 471 00:25:35,756 --> 00:25:38,076 Speaker 2: at the Apollo Theater, which is this competition where if 472 00:25:38,076 --> 00:25:39,836 Speaker 2: you win, you get to play at the Apollo for 473 00:25:39,956 --> 00:25:42,476 Speaker 2: a week. And she at this point thinks she's going 474 00:25:42,516 --> 00:25:44,316 Speaker 2: to be a dancer, so she's playing to enter as 475 00:25:44,316 --> 00:25:45,676 Speaker 2: a dancer. I mean, do you want to hear the 476 00:25:45,676 --> 00:25:51,076 Speaker 2: tape of her telling the story? So this is her 477 00:25:51,116 --> 00:25:53,316 Speaker 2: towards the end of her career talking to Andre Previn. 478 00:25:54,076 --> 00:25:57,796 Speaker 2: When you first started, you had visions of not being 479 00:25:57,796 --> 00:25:58,156 Speaker 2: a singer. 480 00:25:58,156 --> 00:26:00,596 Speaker 7: You were going to be a dancer. Is that right right? 481 00:26:00,796 --> 00:26:03,116 Speaker 5: Tell me that, Oh you really want to hear that? 482 00:26:03,316 --> 00:26:07,836 Speaker 3: Will just started back in my hometown and Yonkers and 483 00:26:07,876 --> 00:26:11,116 Speaker 3: I was what they called, you know, the greatest little 484 00:26:11,236 --> 00:26:18,236 Speaker 3: dancer in Younkers. And we used to go down to 485 00:26:18,316 --> 00:26:21,476 Speaker 3: the Pollow on amateur night, my girlfriends and I and 486 00:26:21,516 --> 00:26:23,356 Speaker 3: you know, like they always tell you if you want 487 00:26:23,396 --> 00:26:26,076 Speaker 3: to be an amateur, to shine and drop your name 488 00:26:26,116 --> 00:26:28,316 Speaker 3: in the box. And being from young because we never 489 00:26:28,356 --> 00:26:32,556 Speaker 3: thought anybody would send a postcard to young Kers, and 490 00:26:32,596 --> 00:26:34,756 Speaker 3: the three of us we put our names in and 491 00:26:35,116 --> 00:26:38,916 Speaker 3: I was the one who was chosen and I made 492 00:26:38,996 --> 00:26:41,076 Speaker 3: up you know, they say, well if you don't go, 493 00:26:41,596 --> 00:26:45,196 Speaker 3: you're chicken. So we went, and believe it or not, 494 00:26:45,356 --> 00:26:47,956 Speaker 3: I was the first amateur that they called. And there 495 00:26:47,996 --> 00:26:51,796 Speaker 3: were two sisters who were the dance and the sisters 496 00:26:51,836 --> 00:26:54,676 Speaker 3: in the world called it Edward Sisters, and they were 497 00:26:54,716 --> 00:26:58,116 Speaker 3: starring at the Pollow and they closed the show with 498 00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:03,556 Speaker 3: up and I when I saw those ladies dance, I says, 499 00:27:03,796 --> 00:27:06,236 Speaker 3: no way, I'm going out there and trying to dance, 500 00:27:06,276 --> 00:27:10,156 Speaker 3: because they stopped the show. I was the first one 501 00:27:10,276 --> 00:27:14,116 Speaker 3: was called, and when I got out there, somebody hollered out. 502 00:27:14,196 --> 00:27:15,756 Speaker 3: Nobody is, what is she gonna do? 503 00:27:18,276 --> 00:27:20,916 Speaker 2: So this is like a story she tells all the time. 504 00:27:21,996 --> 00:27:25,836 Speaker 2: What nobody knew is that when she was on stage 505 00:27:25,836 --> 00:27:28,916 Speaker 2: at the Apollo, she was just out of the training school. 506 00:27:29,596 --> 00:27:33,556 Speaker 3: And my mother had a record of Miss Connie Boswell, 507 00:27:33,996 --> 00:27:35,876 Speaker 3: who I think was one of the greatest singers that 508 00:27:35,996 --> 00:27:36,516 Speaker 3: ever lived. 509 00:27:37,076 --> 00:27:38,436 Speaker 5: And she used to. 510 00:27:38,396 --> 00:27:43,116 Speaker 3: Play Obtic of my affection and Judy and I got 511 00:27:43,156 --> 00:27:45,796 Speaker 3: so I had, you know, used to sing it. So 512 00:27:45,996 --> 00:27:50,556 Speaker 3: the man said sing something, well, I tried to sing Judy, 513 00:27:50,996 --> 00:27:53,356 Speaker 3: and I think miss Connie boswa because then I tried 514 00:27:53,356 --> 00:27:55,756 Speaker 3: to sing like her and I sang if a voyage 515 00:27:55,836 --> 00:28:00,636 Speaker 3: ben break the whole of the sproom that's Judy and 516 00:28:00,716 --> 00:28:03,796 Speaker 3: everybody says all that girl can sing, and the people 517 00:28:03,916 --> 00:28:06,636 Speaker 3: plought it so much. I sang Object of my Affection. 518 00:28:06,796 --> 00:28:11,116 Speaker 3: That was the other side of the record, and I 519 00:28:11,196 --> 00:28:15,516 Speaker 3: won first prize. So then that made me feel like, 520 00:28:15,636 --> 00:28:18,516 Speaker 3: you know, well, I wanted to try to be a singer. 521 00:28:21,756 --> 00:28:23,956 Speaker 2: I just I love it so much. And I think 522 00:28:23,996 --> 00:28:27,036 Speaker 2: it's the You know, it's obvious, but if she's a 523 00:28:27,076 --> 00:28:29,956 Speaker 2: note in these maps, we know her so well as 524 00:28:29,956 --> 00:28:32,436 Speaker 2: a person. But obviously, like every single person in the 525 00:28:32,436 --> 00:28:34,476 Speaker 2: maps had a full life. 526 00:28:34,356 --> 00:28:37,676 Speaker 1: Too, and you actually think. 527 00:28:37,516 --> 00:28:41,516 Speaker 2: You found Yeah, I think I found a notation. 528 00:28:42,036 --> 00:28:43,916 Speaker 1: You found her place in the social diaga. 529 00:28:44,116 --> 00:28:47,636 Speaker 2: Yes, I found a girl who's plausibly ele Fitzgerald, but 530 00:28:47,676 --> 00:28:48,716 Speaker 2: I can't know for sure. 531 00:28:49,436 --> 00:28:51,036 Speaker 1: It's a black girl named Ella. 532 00:28:51,196 --> 00:28:54,036 Speaker 2: In this book, there's a mention of a girl named Ella. 533 00:28:54,636 --> 00:28:57,276 Speaker 2: All the girls on the maps are given initials, like 534 00:28:57,276 --> 00:29:00,716 Speaker 2: two letter initials that don't correspond with their names, and 535 00:29:01,116 --> 00:29:03,556 Speaker 2: there's mention of a girl named Ella. She's given the 536 00:29:03,556 --> 00:29:07,636 Speaker 2: two letter initial GA, and then like one hundred pages 537 00:29:07,716 --> 00:29:10,516 Speaker 2: later there's a map with a GA on it that 538 00:29:10,636 --> 00:29:14,516 Speaker 2: specifies the Gas is a black girl. So there's a 539 00:29:14,596 --> 00:29:16,836 Speaker 2: Ga named Ella who's a black girl, and we know 540 00:29:16,876 --> 00:29:18,876 Speaker 2: that Marina was making the study at the time when 541 00:29:18,876 --> 00:29:20,276 Speaker 2: Ella was also in the school. 542 00:29:20,716 --> 00:29:22,316 Speaker 1: Do you make this discovery or did. 543 00:29:22,276 --> 00:29:24,156 Speaker 2: I'm in this discovery because I read this. 544 00:29:24,076 --> 00:29:29,476 Speaker 1: You've contributed to the legend of both Elafazgerald and Jail Marina. 545 00:29:29,596 --> 00:29:32,156 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, Yes, this is correct. 546 00:29:32,276 --> 00:29:36,236 Speaker 1: And what happens when Moreno and Jennings's research comes out. 547 00:29:36,316 --> 00:29:39,316 Speaker 2: It has a pretty significant reception. Moreno has gotten involved 548 00:29:39,316 --> 00:29:41,636 Speaker 2: in the new Deal, but like the most significant thing 549 00:29:41,676 --> 00:29:44,276 Speaker 2: that comes out of the ground swell of support is 550 00:29:44,316 --> 00:29:48,436 Speaker 2: he launches a journal called Sociometry. But it's this really 551 00:29:48,516 --> 00:29:51,196 Speaker 2: influential journal and you know, like six degrees of separation 552 00:29:51,436 --> 00:29:54,236 Speaker 2: is tested there. All of these leading lights of social 553 00:29:54,316 --> 00:29:58,036 Speaker 2: science like George Gallup, Margaret Mead, John Dewey, they're like 554 00:29:58,716 --> 00:30:01,476 Speaker 2: involved in the editorial board or publishing in the journal. 555 00:30:02,156 --> 00:30:05,076 Speaker 2: It's finally like a platform for him to share these 556 00:30:05,116 --> 00:30:11,516 Speaker 2: ideas about social networks basically with a broader public. And 557 00:30:11,556 --> 00:30:14,316 Speaker 2: that field social network analysis doesn't really take off until 558 00:30:14,356 --> 00:30:17,956 Speaker 2: the seventies or eighties, but he's credited with being a 559 00:30:17,996 --> 00:30:20,956 Speaker 2: major forerunner of it and doing it in this experiment. 560 00:30:23,676 --> 00:30:26,036 Speaker 2: This story is significant to me in part because it's 561 00:30:26,156 --> 00:30:28,316 Speaker 2: sort of the story of science in the twentieth century, 562 00:30:28,596 --> 00:30:30,556 Speaker 2: or like one kind of science in the twentieth century, 563 00:30:30,556 --> 00:30:35,036 Speaker 2: which is I think in the quest to institutionalize his 564 00:30:35,156 --> 00:30:37,996 Speaker 2: ideas and to be as big a player as he 565 00:30:37,996 --> 00:30:41,276 Speaker 2: could be. I feel like Jael Moreno kind of pulled 566 00:30:41,276 --> 00:30:43,636 Speaker 2: his punches, like he had ten thousand pages of data. 567 00:30:44,156 --> 00:30:46,756 Speaker 2: I don't believe that he didn't know what was actually 568 00:30:46,836 --> 00:30:49,876 Speaker 2: going on at the school, and specifically what was happening 569 00:30:49,916 --> 00:30:52,956 Speaker 2: to the black girls at the school. And it's not 570 00:30:53,036 --> 00:30:55,276 Speaker 2: that that kind of thing wasn't sayable in the nineteen thirties, 571 00:30:55,276 --> 00:30:58,076 Speaker 2: because the Attorney General had already said that the school 572 00:30:58,076 --> 00:30:59,076 Speaker 2: should be desegregated. 573 00:30:59,636 --> 00:31:02,316 Speaker 1: So the school is segregated, and then New York State 574 00:31:02,476 --> 00:31:09,356 Speaker 1: turn General has asked that it be desegregated, and the 575 00:31:09,356 --> 00:31:14,316 Speaker 1: school Morse doesn't want to do it. And in his analysis, 576 00:31:15,236 --> 00:31:23,596 Speaker 1: Moreno is kind of oblivious or or disregarding of this issue, 577 00:31:23,636 --> 00:31:24,436 Speaker 1: is what you were saying. 578 00:31:24,716 --> 00:31:26,916 Speaker 2: He covers the fact that it's segregated. It's just not 579 00:31:27,156 --> 00:31:29,276 Speaker 2: like the sort of like beating of the girls in 580 00:31:29,316 --> 00:31:32,716 Speaker 2: the basement, but more like the corporal punishment stuff. The 581 00:31:32,796 --> 00:31:35,396 Speaker 2: other reasons why girls might be running away. These sorts 582 00:31:35,436 --> 00:31:38,956 Speaker 2: of issues aren't in the text, and like the degree 583 00:31:38,996 --> 00:31:42,476 Speaker 2: to which the segregation is institutionalized isn't really covered either. 584 00:31:42,836 --> 00:31:45,116 Speaker 1: But I'm you know, it's ninety we're talking about the 585 00:31:45,156 --> 00:31:50,076 Speaker 1: early thirties. Nothing's integrated in the early thirties. 586 00:31:50,196 --> 00:31:52,556 Speaker 2: But there was an expectation that this place would be 587 00:31:52,596 --> 00:31:54,996 Speaker 2: I mean, this is. And it's also like Harlem Renaissance 588 00:31:55,036 --> 00:31:57,156 Speaker 2: is going on. There's a lot of black power in 589 00:31:57,196 --> 00:32:01,716 Speaker 2: New York City as of the nineteen twenties. And when 590 00:32:01,756 --> 00:32:05,556 Speaker 2: there's an investigation into the school after Moreno's study, not 591 00:32:05,596 --> 00:32:07,676 Speaker 2: because of it, there is, it's led by a black 592 00:32:07,716 --> 00:32:10,996 Speaker 2: doctor in partnership, but the governor. There's a level of 593 00:32:11,036 --> 00:32:13,596 Speaker 2: state support for the idea that this is, this shouldn't 594 00:32:13,636 --> 00:32:17,116 Speaker 2: be happening that suggests that it's not really so beyond 595 00:32:17,116 --> 00:32:18,316 Speaker 2: the realm of possibility. 596 00:32:18,956 --> 00:32:19,396 Speaker 7: Mm hmm. 597 00:32:20,516 --> 00:32:23,716 Speaker 1: The person I'm I, the person who I would fault 598 00:32:23,796 --> 00:32:29,436 Speaker 1: is not Morse so much as Moreno. He's the outsider. 599 00:32:30,836 --> 00:32:34,476 Speaker 1: He's the one who's who sees himself as a revolutionary, 600 00:32:34,556 --> 00:32:37,836 Speaker 1: who's not who doesn't at least profess to be held 601 00:32:37,876 --> 00:32:42,356 Speaker 1: by the you know, the standards of the rest of society. 602 00:32:42,596 --> 00:32:46,676 Speaker 1: Who is, as you say, coming up with a new 603 00:32:46,716 --> 00:32:50,436 Speaker 1: idea that professes to paint a picture of the whole community. 604 00:32:51,116 --> 00:32:53,676 Speaker 1: And you could easily see that someone who was if 605 00:32:53,716 --> 00:32:57,156 Speaker 1: he was as revolutionary as he claimed to be, he 606 00:32:57,236 --> 00:32:59,236 Speaker 1: can easily see a version of this where he would 607 00:32:59,276 --> 00:33:05,476 Speaker 1: have said, look, this is what segregation does. Like he 608 00:33:05,636 --> 00:33:09,396 Speaker 1: came with a tool to see what was wrong with 609 00:33:10,436 --> 00:33:13,356 Speaker 1: segregation and turned a blind eye to it. I mean interestingly, 610 00:33:13,396 --> 00:33:18,316 Speaker 1: of course, social science becomes hugely important in the strategy 611 00:33:18,356 --> 00:33:21,556 Speaker 1: of the civil rights movement and the legal strategy of. 612 00:33:21,556 --> 00:33:24,116 Speaker 2: The civil Brown versus borders and on. 613 00:33:24,356 --> 00:33:27,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, in the fifteen sixties, So like there's an opening. 614 00:33:28,876 --> 00:33:32,076 Speaker 1: This is what's so fascinating about this story is that 615 00:33:32,796 --> 00:33:36,556 Speaker 1: this here's this brilliant man who he's blind in so 616 00:33:36,676 --> 00:33:43,076 Speaker 1: many ways to the possibilities of his own fame and greatness. Right, 617 00:33:43,356 --> 00:33:46,796 Speaker 1: he had the tool that everybody would end up using 618 00:33:47,356 --> 00:33:50,436 Speaker 1: twenty years later to break down the door of prejudice, 619 00:33:50,436 --> 00:33:52,316 Speaker 1: and he didn't understand he had the tool and went 620 00:33:52,356 --> 00:33:59,316 Speaker 1: back to doing psychodrama like he had it. Right, does 621 00:33:59,356 --> 00:34:02,676 Speaker 1: he continue over the rest of his life pursuing social 622 00:34:02,756 --> 00:34:04,436 Speaker 1: network theory or doing psychodrama? 623 00:34:04,676 --> 00:34:08,236 Speaker 2: I mean he stays involved with sociometry. I think he 624 00:34:08,276 --> 00:34:10,956 Speaker 2: just wanted to be a direct there. Like there's a 625 00:34:10,956 --> 00:34:13,076 Speaker 2: story he tells about when he was a kid that 626 00:34:13,196 --> 00:34:15,116 Speaker 2: to me is kind of structured the way I think 627 00:34:15,116 --> 00:34:17,316 Speaker 2: about him. And I think he's sharing it because he 628 00:34:17,356 --> 00:34:20,356 Speaker 2: thinks it has some fundamental truth about himself contained in it. 629 00:34:20,436 --> 00:34:22,076 Speaker 2: But I just want to play you this one thing, 630 00:34:22,476 --> 00:34:24,116 Speaker 2: this is about when he's a child, I think in 631 00:34:24,196 --> 00:34:25,356 Speaker 2: Bucharest still. 632 00:34:26,356 --> 00:34:31,036 Speaker 7: One saturday my parents got away, a crowd of children 633 00:34:31,596 --> 00:34:34,396 Speaker 7: gathered in our house in the basement, and I still 634 00:34:34,516 --> 00:34:37,236 Speaker 7: remember that. They came to me and said, now, you Jack, 635 00:34:37,556 --> 00:34:40,076 Speaker 7: this was my first name. What are you going to 636 00:34:40,076 --> 00:34:40,596 Speaker 7: do today? 637 00:34:40,636 --> 00:34:43,836 Speaker 6: I said, let's play God. Well, I said enough, But 638 00:34:44,556 --> 00:34:46,876 Speaker 6: one of the children said, and who is God? I said, 639 00:34:46,956 --> 00:34:50,996 Speaker 6: I am God, and you are my angels. And then 640 00:34:51,236 --> 00:34:53,196 Speaker 6: they all said, let's have it's God the heaven. 641 00:34:53,916 --> 00:34:55,876 Speaker 7: And we went with the basement and we do all 642 00:34:55,916 --> 00:35:00,196 Speaker 7: the chairs in the house, and they built the various 643 00:35:00,276 --> 00:35:02,476 Speaker 7: heavens up to the top, and on top they had 644 00:35:02,516 --> 00:35:05,756 Speaker 7: a chairir for God himself, and I was in help 645 00:35:06,236 --> 00:35:10,716 Speaker 7: for all the children to sit there on well as 646 00:35:10,756 --> 00:35:13,636 Speaker 7: it is, I was gone, and I stood still the 647 00:35:13,716 --> 00:35:16,796 Speaker 7: dangers began to run around to sing, and suddenly while 648 00:35:16,796 --> 00:35:19,396 Speaker 7: the angels said, why don't you fly? And I stretched 649 00:35:19,396 --> 00:35:23,916 Speaker 7: my arms and I fed down and my right art. 650 00:35:27,676 --> 00:35:31,236 Speaker 2: It's just like I just loved the story, but like 651 00:35:31,276 --> 00:35:33,196 Speaker 2: that's kind of his whole thing. It's like he tries 652 00:35:33,276 --> 00:35:35,916 Speaker 2: to play god, he falls down, he breaks his arm, 653 00:35:36,436 --> 00:35:38,876 Speaker 2: like he always wants to be the guy who sits 654 00:35:38,916 --> 00:35:42,636 Speaker 2: above and looks down, and that's a fatal flaw of is. 655 00:35:44,036 --> 00:35:46,076 Speaker 1: We think that's I think that's a nice I think 656 00:35:46,116 --> 00:35:47,596 Speaker 1: that's a nice think it's a nice way to end. 657 00:35:47,676 --> 00:35:48,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. 658 00:35:48,476 --> 00:35:53,996 Speaker 1: Yeah. For more psychodrama, go subscribe to the Last Archive 659 00:35:54,276 --> 00:35:58,876 Speaker 1: to hear six episodes of Gripping Intellectual History Ben Scott 660 00:35:58,956 --> 00:36:03,956 Speaker 1: stories on mid century songwriting, machines, invasive species, panics, freelance 661 00:36:04,116 --> 00:36:08,676 Speaker 1: wiretappers turned evangelists, and time travel. Subscribe, but you'll also 662 00:36:08,716 --> 00:36:11,236 Speaker 1: hear a whole different version of the story Ben told 663 00:36:11,236 --> 00:36:15,676 Speaker 1: today coming soon. He won't want to miss it. Ben 664 00:36:15,716 --> 00:36:18,396 Speaker 1: produced this episode of Revisionist History as well, with help 665 00:36:18,436 --> 00:36:21,676 Speaker 1: from Jacob Smith and Kiara Powell. We were edited by 666 00:36:21,716 --> 00:36:25,796 Speaker 1: Peter Clowney and Julia Barton, Engineering by Nina Lawrence, Mastering 667 00:36:25,796 --> 00:36:29,556 Speaker 1: by Sarah Bugaire. Original music by Matthias Bossi and John 668 00:36:29,556 --> 00:36:33,956 Speaker 1: Evans of Stellwagon Sinfinnat. I'm Malcolm Gladmo