1 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Wasn't Joe? Have I 3 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: ever told you my favorite conspiracy theory? Uh? No, but 4 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: I'm not surprised you have a favorite conspiracy theory. I 5 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: don't know what it is. However, I'll try not to 6 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: take that personally. Um, but my favorite conspiracy theory is 7 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: a favorite and has something to do with a silver 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: price suppression. Well, now, wait a second, that conspiracy theory 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: actually turned out to be true. But anyway, Okay, we're 10 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: going to go on a really long tangent if we 11 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: keep heading in that direction. No, my favorite conspiracy theory 12 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: is well, it has to do with inflation, um, and 13 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: eggs and cholesterol. And yeah, this is a good one. 14 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: Not many people know this, but in the nineteen sixties 15 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: when there was high inflation and uh, the president was 16 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: very worried about it. This is Lyndon B. Johnson. Back then, 17 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: he was trying to come up with all these different 18 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: ways to maybe get prices to start coming down, and 19 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: one of the things he did was target eggs and 20 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: he basically told the Surgeon General to issue alerts um 21 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: all about the risk of cholesterol in eggs to try 22 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: to get people to buy fewer of them. And you know, 23 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: even to this day, people still think there's lots of 24 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: cholesterol in eggs and that they're unhealthy. And a lot 25 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: of that traces back to Lyndon Johnson trying to fight 26 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: inflation fifty years ago or sixty years ago. I should say, So, 27 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: you said this is a conspiracy theory, But is it true, 28 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: Like did this actually happen or is it just people 29 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: think this was the sequence of events? No? No, no, 30 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: this actually happened. But basically there was a conspiracy to 31 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: tell the public that eggs were terribly unhealthy when in 32 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: fact they aren't. That's crazy. So the reason I'm bringing 33 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:13,119 Speaker 1: it up is because there are clearly concerns about inflation 34 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: right now. I think um CPI is at something like 35 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: six point eight percent, and when people think about inflation, 36 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: I think the first thing their minds turned to is 37 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: interest rates and monetary policy. Inflation is high, so maybe 38 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: the Fed should start raising rates, But of course there 39 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: are these different ways to actually try to bring prices down. Right. 40 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: This is really the key thing, which is that you know, obviously, 41 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: you know, people think of inflation is the purview of 42 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: the FED and monetary policy and monetary aggregate Milton Friedman, 43 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: Inflation is always an everywhere monetary phenomenon. But like we 44 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: see it this year, if we had if we had 45 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: had to say, like more used cars or more semiconductors 46 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: to make cars or etcetera, we know that headline inflation 47 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: would be lower, and that's just a fact. And so 48 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: like we clearly see the existence, especially right now, what 49 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: I would say is non monetary inflation. And maybe some 50 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 1: economists would get annoyed by that or they would disagree 51 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: or whatever, but like we could point to maybe overall 52 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: it's not just about bottlenecks or whatever, but we could 53 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: certainly point to at times the existence of forces that 54 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: are not clearly related to the faith that push up 55 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: the aggregates of price and disease without question. And you know, 56 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,119 Speaker 1: in other areas like medical care, like and I don't 57 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: think like the high cost of medical care is something 58 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: that like obviously is attributable to monetary policy, no um. 59 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: And we are starting to see politicians pay more attention 60 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: to these specific issues. So we've been talking a lot 61 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: about attempts to ease supply chain congestion, and I have 62 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: to say one of the more interesting efforts that is 63 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: currently going on has to do with antitrust legislation, which 64 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: is not necessarily something that you would think of when 65 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: you think of supply chain problems. Yeah, no, I think 66 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: that's like really interesting. And you know, obviously these are 67 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: sort of like slow moving things and they're probably a 68 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: limit to what you could do in the next few months. 69 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: But the idea that a few companies have incredible amount 70 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: of buying power because of concentration, because of lack of competition, 71 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: it seems like a very interesting avenue and one that 72 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: even at least in the medium to longer term, if 73 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 1: not right away in the next few months, could increase 74 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: the sort of like productive capacity overall if we have 75 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: more competitive markets exactly. So we are going to be 76 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: digging into that question of whether or not you can 77 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: use antitrust enforcement to try to bring down inflation and 78 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: ease some of these supply constraints bring down things like 79 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: food prices. And we do have the perfect guest to 80 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: talk about. We're going to be speaking with Craig Sebald. 81 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: He's a partner at Vincent and Alkins and an expert 82 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: in anti trust. So, Craig, welcome to the show. Well, 83 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: Tracy and Joe, it's my pleasure to be with you, 84 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: and I'm excited to talk to you about some of 85 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: my favorite subjects, anti trust, politics, and a little history. Great, 86 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: I had a question for you too. I really I 87 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: worked on this because it's hard to combine a joke 88 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: that includes anti trust and supply chain. But here it goes, 89 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: how many anti trust lawyers does it take to change 90 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: a light bulb? How many? None? The light bulbs are 91 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: late and not shipping. So that was pretty good. I 92 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: like it. I like it. It's solid, it's tough materially 93 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: anti trust. That's the best I can do. Well, I mean, 94 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: on that note, maybe you could just to begin with 95 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: you could start by defining what antitrust actually is and 96 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: how it could relate to supply chain problems. Yeah, let 97 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: me just give you a quick overview. In the United 98 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: the States, we have three basic antitrust laws, and well, 99 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: in the United States, high prices in ament themselves are 100 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: not in any trust violation. We do worry and the 101 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: greatest sin for the any trust area is actions that 102 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: were that cause higher prices. So we have three laws 103 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: as always saying. One is the Sherman Act, and the 104 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: German Act goes back to have Sherman Act Section one, 105 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: which regulates agreements and restraint and trade, and we're looking 106 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: at price fixing, bid rigging, those type of agreements between 107 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: competitors that raise prices. Those are illegal. The second major 108 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: antitrust law we have is Section two of the Sherman Act, 109 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: which regulates monopolies. This is getting a lot of press 110 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: these days because the government's challenges to Google, to facebooks, 111 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: those are all under Section two. What's interesting under our law, 112 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: it's not illegal in the United States to be a monopolist, 113 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: but it's illegal to engage in monopolization. And what do 114 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: I mean by that. It means it's okay to be 115 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: big in the United States, but it's not okay to 116 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: be big and do bad things. And one of the 117 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: bad things could be taking actions to raise prices. And 118 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: so one of the things that we worry about with 119 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: the big tech companies is what actions they're doing to 120 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: make markets less competitive. And then finally, we have our 121 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: merger control laws, which go back to the Clayton Next 122 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: section seven, which regulate anti competitive mergers. And when we 123 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: review mergers, and we have a whole regime here in 124 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: the United States. Um and actually we have a unique 125 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: system in the United States because we have to antitrust agencies. 126 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: One wasn't apparently not good enough for the United States. 127 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: We have the Justice Department Antitrust Division and the Federal 128 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: Trade Commission, both with authority to investigate matters under the 129 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: intrust draws challenged mergers. And the greatest sin with mergers 130 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: is a merger that increases concentration and raises prices. So 131 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: increased prices through bad actions are something that the antitrust 132 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: laws are good at going after. So let me ask 133 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: you a question about anti trust as applied. Because there 134 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: is our antitrust regulation, there is an impression and that 135 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: in recent years that by and large anti trust on 136 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: any of the avenues that you identified has not been 137 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: pursued particularly vigorously. That in the past our anti trust 138 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: laws were taken more seriously, that regulator has had a 139 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: greater appetite to enforce them, whatever they are, and that 140 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: by and large these days there's not a lot of 141 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 1: regulatory activity, or there hasn't been up until recently. Is 142 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: that a fair characterization or is that just sort of 143 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: like a medium meth, you know, I would say it's 144 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: a mixed record. Over the last few years, we are clearly, 145 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: I think, poise for much more antitrust enforcement. The Biden 146 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: administration any trust regulators are very aggressive and has signaled 147 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: that they're going to be aggressive in the market. There's 148 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: almost an attitude of what's happened before didn't work, We're 149 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: gonna change things and do more. When I say it's 150 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 1: a mixed record, when we look at enforcement, we've been 151 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: fairly strong in terms of our criminal enforcement, and that's 152 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: an important point. The anti trust laws in the United 153 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: States are prosecuted both criminally, so people go to jail 154 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: for anti trust crimes and civilly, and so the criminal 155 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: enforcement program has been very active. In the last twenty years. 156 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of cases involving international cartels, and 157 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: both Republican and Democratic administrations have gone after them. There's 158 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: been a fairly rigorous merger enforcement, although I think there's 159 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: questions about whether we've let too many mergers go through, 160 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about that as we talk about shipping. 161 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: The one area there hasn't been many cases, and I 162 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 1: do signal a change in this is the monopolization cases 163 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: you look at, you know, just a couple of years ago, 164 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: we were bringing zero monopoly cases and uh, that started 165 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: to change at the end of the Trump administration with 166 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: the high tech suits, and so I think they're looking 167 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: to reinvigorate the monopolization cases that they're they're looking at 168 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: these days. So you sort of tease this a few 169 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: minutes ago when you when you mentioned that we're going 170 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 1: to get into some history. But one of the interesting 171 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: things when it comes to supply chains and antitrust is 172 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: that there's actually a carve out for shipping companies. So 173 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: there's an antitrust exemption. Could you maybe walk us through 174 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: what that is and how that came to be. So 175 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: in the antitrust general, there are exemptions to the antitrust rules. 176 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: The courts have been very consistent in saying anti trust 177 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: exemption should be applied very carefully and they should construed 178 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: very nearly. One of the most famous antitrust exemptions that 179 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: exist is Major League Baseball. There is an exemption from 180 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: Major League Baseball. They are not challenged. What's interesting, They 181 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: get the benefit of that. But other professional sports football, 182 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: the n c a, A, golf, others words don't have 183 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: the benefit of that. So that's a very famous one. 184 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: And actually there was some concern the summer over even 185 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: that exemption, because when Baseball decided not to have its 186 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 1: um All Star Game in Georgia this summer, there was 187 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: some talk about getting read of that exemption. Putting that 188 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: side talking about the shipping exemption. So it goes back 189 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: to this notion that shipping used to be a highly 190 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: regulated area, and so because of the highly regulatory nature 191 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: of it, that there was felt that the shippers would 192 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: need to be able to work together to organize how 193 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: they ship freight, to maximize storage capacity, to work together 194 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: on rates, and so because of this regulatory structure, there 195 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: was given an antitrust exemption, and the exemption allowed that 196 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: that the shippers could agree on rates tariffs they charge 197 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: so long as those were filed with the Federal Maritime 198 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: Commission and approved by the Federal Maritime Commission. So you 199 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: can have a classic cartel, but so long as under 200 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: this exemption they were filed with the Federal Maritime Commission, 201 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: it was allowed. That's kind of evolved over the years 202 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: as we've had deregulation in the shipping industry, so that 203 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: there is still then exemption, but it's fairly limited. You 204 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: can still technically file tariffs, but people don't do that. 205 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: All the shipping contracts are private contracts these days, so 206 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: those are those are not any trust exempt. Where the 207 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: exemption really lies is that you can have what they 208 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: call conferences, and I think that's just a light way 209 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: to talk about competitor meetings where you can have competitor 210 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,199 Speaker 1: meetings where they can talk about rates, but they can't 211 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: agree upon the rates. Now they have to if they 212 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: have if they talk about them. Again, it's this filing notion. Uh, 213 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: they still have to file what they're talking about with 214 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 1: the Federal Maritime Commission, but they can't agree on it. 215 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: So it's a little odd, I have to admit, because 216 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: it's a pretty fine line to be able to say, oh, 217 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about rates and have a general agreement 218 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: that we may or may not agree to. So it's 219 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: a pretty fine line and it causes I think a 220 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: lot of issues in the shipping industry. And as you say, 221 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,839 Speaker 1: it's not just one of the shipping industry. We see 222 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: this in some other industries as well. So, first of all, 223 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: when it comes to shipping, and you know, this is 224 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: this is an area we've talked about a fair amount. 225 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: Most of these companies are US based, and I'm just 226 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: curious or the big ones anyway that we talked about. 227 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: I'm just curious about the extent to which US regulators 228 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: have reached into this space versus you know, how much 229 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: does that further challenge the ability of US regulators, even 230 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: in any legal regime, to do anything on shipping competitiveness 231 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: the US Any trust laws, I would say, are not 232 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: unlimited in their jurisdiction, but very fulsome in their jurisdictions. 233 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: So any action caused by a foreign company that has 234 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: a direct enforeseeable effect on US commerce is subject to 235 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: challenge by the Justice Department. So you could have a conspiracy. 236 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: We see this all the time in the cases I 237 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: work on, where two companies to business people of real 238 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: prices in some foreign country. They're even in the United States, 239 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: but yeah, the US government can go challenge them and 240 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: challenge the conduct in US sports. So a couple of 241 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: years ago, there's this coalition of the shipping companies. They 242 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: get together and talk about race, talking about something that 243 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: we're just talking about under the exemption, and they came 244 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: to San Francisco for their meeting. You knew who visited 245 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: their meeting. Anti trust lawyers and the FBI. They came 246 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: in and rated this meeting and they handed out subpoenas 247 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: to everybody in the room. So I can you imagine 248 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: you're in this hotel room with all these your it's, it's, it's, 249 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: it's it's a group of shipping executives, and it's all 250 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: the CEOs, all the top guys. So they all come 251 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: to San Francisco for this meeting to talk about these 252 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: things that they're allowed to talk about under the exemption, 253 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: and who bust in is the FBI and the entrut 254 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: Division handing out subpoenas like their candy. Clearly they did 255 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: this investigation was interesting. They did an investigation of the 256 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: shipping industry. I think they were worried about the alliances 257 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: and some of the other things. Ultimately there were no 258 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: action brought, so uh, you know, I think the exemptions 259 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: did take a bit of a part of that and 260 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: why the Justice Department didn't move forward on that. But 261 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: it just shows you that the view that here you 262 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: had thirteen fourteen four and executives all getting subpoenas, so 263 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: that the jurisdiction is very broad from the Justice Department's perspective, 264 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: Why don't we get into um like specific actions that 265 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: the US government the antitrust authorities could take in order 266 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: to remedy supply chain issues, because we already mentioned shipping, 267 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: that's one aspect of it. But of course another thing 268 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: they could do is try to go after large monopoly 269 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: players in consumer goods and try to bring down prices 270 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: that way. So could you maybe get into some specifics 271 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: of what could happen here, what sort of enforcement actions 272 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: are realistic. So there are several actually that are ongoing 273 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: at the moment. The Federal Train Commission just announced that 274 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: they're doing an investigation of the supply chain issues. They 275 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: sent out inquiries to a number of US companies. These 276 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: are the big companies like Amazon, Broger, Procter, and Gambill Tysons, 277 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: those that are trying to bring products in the United 278 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: States to try to understand what the problems are. So 279 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: that's the first step. They're doing an investigation. Now, this 280 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: is under a rule at the FTC that allows the 281 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: FTC to investigate industry wide practices that may have any 282 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: trust problems. So this is really a first step This 283 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: is to say, is there an any trust competitive problem? 284 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: What that could lead to if they say, gee, they're 285 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: do soon to be any trust problems are investigations. The 286 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: Justice Department or the FTC could open up civil The 287 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: Justice Department could open a civil or criminal investigation of 288 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: thinks that there are any trust problems. One of the 289 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: problems about any trust though, is it is very very slow. 290 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: So while we have these problems now, you know, investigation 291 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: can take a year, two years. All any trust cases 292 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: are driven by documents and evidence. It takes a long time, 293 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: especially if you're getting them from foreign companies. It's it's 294 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: can be troubling. There's issues about getting them from foreign companies. 295 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: Quite frankly, foreign companies like China have blocking statutes which 296 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: don't allow foreign companies to reduced documents to the U. 297 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: S Government without the Chinese governments signing off on it. 298 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: And so these investigations can get bogged down. And then 299 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: even if they bring a case, anti trust cases are 300 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 1: super slow, and so you could have a case filed 301 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: and not even have a court date for four or five, six, 302 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: seven years. So we could be on three different supply 303 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: chain events past where we are today, before we start 304 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 1: having any trust case about what's happening right now. So 305 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: any trust can be helpful, but it's certainly not an 306 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: immediate solution to the problems we're having today. So this 307 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: actually leads me right into my next question. And you know, 308 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: we sort of said in the intro it's like, oh, right, 309 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: you know, well, we're talking about inflation right now. Anti 310 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: trust isn't going to do anything in the next few months. 311 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: But one of the themes that we come back to 312 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,479 Speaker 1: a lot on this show is that a lot of 313 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: what we've run into now is this sort of like 314 00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: compounding price that we pay for diminished markets or at 315 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: your feed markets. And we had this long period after 316 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: the Great Financial Crisis in which many industries, maybe due 317 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: to you know, usually talk about mediocre growth or mediocre 318 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: and demand simply did not invest particularly much in capacity, 319 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 1: and we pay the price. Now, maybe we don't pay 320 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: the price during periods of low demand, but as soon 321 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: as GDP grows rapidly, we pay the price of atrophied capacity. 322 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: And I'm curious, like, okay, long term, like yeah, or 323 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: we accepted in the short term anti trust can't do much, 324 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: but what about in the medium or longer term, like 325 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: is the idea that if we had more robust anti 326 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: trust and we had more competitive markets as the norm, 327 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: that perhaps productive economic capacity overall in any cycle would 328 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: be greater than it is today. I think that's true. 329 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: I think you'll see it, especially in merger enforcement. When 330 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: I was in law school, I had a professor that 331 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: talked about the fact that we see every forty years 332 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: kind of the antitrust pendulums wing. When I was going 333 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: to law school was right after the Regaan administration. Regulation 334 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: was disfavored, let the markets do their own thing, let 335 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: not have very big government enforcement. And I think you're 336 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: starting to see this movement towards more regulation towards more enforcement. 337 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: I think there is a realization by some of our lawmakers, 338 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: by some of our regulators that maybe they let things 339 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: go too far. So if you look, for instance, I'm 340 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: involved in the case right now against some of the 341 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: railroad companies for some logistics issues for some fees that 342 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 1: they put in place almost twenty years ago at this point. 343 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: But you're like a railroad industry. We used to have 344 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: a very vibrant railroad industry with lots of competitors. It 345 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: was highly regulated then we had this movement and make 346 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: it not regulated, and now we're down to four major 347 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: railroads which control almost of all the all the railroad 348 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: traffic in the United States. And the same as was shipping, 349 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: you had a American competitors, you have foreign competitors. From 350 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: I understand, now you're down to basically nine shippers of 351 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: control almost all of the export products in the United States. 352 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: There are no US producers. And on top of it, 353 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: you have these three alliances. And so I think you're 354 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: starting to see people say, did we go too far 355 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: and letting some of these mergers go through? And so 356 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: I think you're seeing this reflected in that we need 357 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: to take a harder look at some of the mergers 358 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: going on now to make sure it doesn't go any further. So, 359 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: just on that note, does it feel like attitudes towards 360 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: antitrust enforcement are starting to change? And I guess another 361 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: way of saying that is, does it feel like there's 362 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: bipartisan support for more antitrust legislation? Inflation being one of 363 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: the few things I think that both parties agree um 364 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: is actually bad and so doing something or anything about 365 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: it might be a good thing. I used to not 366 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 1: worry about antitrust letters insolation, because I just never thought 367 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: it had much of a chance to pass, because you 368 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: always had the setup where the Democrats were more pro enforcement, 369 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: more willing to think about new legislation, and then the 370 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,199 Speaker 1: Republican Party at least ten twenty thirty years ago, was 371 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: the party of country club, Republicans chamber of commerce and 372 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: didn't want to have it. That has changed dramatically in 373 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: the last year or two, as you see the Republican 374 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,360 Speaker 1: Party move away from big business to become more populist. 375 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: And so now you're seeing this merging of kind of 376 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 1: the left, which has traditionally wanted anti trust enforcement in 377 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: the right. Now that's more anti business. The summer I 378 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: was struck. I was reading pulling from the Gallop organization 379 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: that talked about confidence in big business, and they asked 380 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: Republicans and Democrats whether they had a great deal or 381 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: quite a lot of confidence in business. And just from 382 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: this year to last year, Republicans confidence in big business 383 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: declined by twelve point. Only only of Republicans have confidence 384 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: in big business. And they track kind of the net 385 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: confidence in each so the percentage, so that compares the 386 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: percentage expressing high confidence in business minus those expressing little 387 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: or no confidence. And so in the past, the Republican 388 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: Party over years, I mean over decades was kind of 389 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: plus ten, twelve, fifteen percent in favor of big business, 390 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: you know where it was last year negative. That's incredible, 391 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,959 Speaker 1: it's incredible. So the Republican Party is no longer and 392 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: it's really in line worth where the Democratic Party is. 393 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: And so bringing it back to shipping, there was this 394 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: kind of out of nowhere there was this new anti 395 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 1: trust bill called Ocean Shipping Reform Act, and it was 396 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: to kind of consistent when we're talking about give the 397 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: Federal Maritime Commission more regulatory powers, more oversight powers, more 398 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: teeth to worry about some of the things we've been 399 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 1: talking about. The thing that amazes me this bill new 400 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: any trust legislation passed in the House of Representatives. And 401 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about the House of Revery just divided and everything. 402 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: This passed three sixty four to sixty. I mean, that 403 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: is about as one side as you can't have in this. 404 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: And here's here's the thing. You think, Joe and Tracy 405 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: think about this. This is the lineup of people who 406 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: voted for this. You had people like on the right list, Cheney, 407 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: Devin Newness, Kevin McCarthy vote for this well, also Madison Cathorne, 408 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: So some of the new guys coming in. But then 409 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: you also had ok Ceo Cortez Omar the Democrats. So 410 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: can you imagine a bill where you would have Kevin 411 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: McCarthy and AOC both supporting it. But that's what we're 412 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: seeing any trust, Sorry, what's the name of this bill? 413 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: I had totally missed this. What what's the name of 414 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: this bill? Because now I'm definitely gonna have to like go. Yeah. 415 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: So it's called the Ocean Shipping Reform Act, and it 416 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: was just passed by the House in December. The Senate 417 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: seems very receptive to it. The Biden administration has indicated 418 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: that they would approve it. It It was a bipartisan bill. 419 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,959 Speaker 1: One of the congressman was a Republican congressman from South Dakota, 420 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: which is kind of funny that South Dakota will be 421 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: worried about shipping, but they are because they would have products. 422 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: He has a been consisient that needs to get Lactose 423 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: to New Zealand and a Democratic sponsor as well. So 424 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: it just didn't have a lot of hearings that didn't 425 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: have a lot. It's just kind of popped up on 426 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: the radar and got improved. And so I think the 427 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: Senden's going to improve it, and I think the Biden 428 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: administration is gonna prove it. And what it does, if 429 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: you're interested, is gives the as I said, the Federal 430 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: Maritime Commission more powers. One of the things that's really 431 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: focused on is some of these fees, these demerged fees 432 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: that people are incurring. Apparently people are paying incredible fees 433 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 1: as their product is sitting in a port and not 434 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 1: being shipped, and there are people throughout the country, shippers 435 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: that are very upset about it. So it puts upon 436 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: the shippers and the dock honders that they have to 437 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: show that the fees are reasonable. The burden is on 438 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,360 Speaker 1: them to prove it's reasonable. There's reporting requirements. It authorizes 439 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: the Federal Maritime Commission to have investigations related to fees 440 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: and charges. It prevents ocean carriers from declining opportunities for 441 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: US exports. So there was apparently an issue that was 442 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: a great concern where products would come to the United 443 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: States and then empty containers would leave without being anything 444 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: in it, uh, and so they want to stop that. 445 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: So it's a pretty comprehensive bill in the shipping area 446 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: that's going to be targets. So it's right on point 447 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: with what we're talking about. Wow, Yeah, Joe, this is 448 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: one of the things that when we spoke to John Porcari, 449 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: the White House's envoy to the Ports, we actually asked 450 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: him about this, but he kind of didn't answer the question, 451 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: which is one reason why we're having this follow up conversations. Yeah, 452 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,479 Speaker 1: right right, I I remember that now, and I remember 453 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: this sort of like the lack of substance or the 454 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: lack of a very clear response about where this was going. 455 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: Something that I'm sort of interested in is what I 456 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: guess I would say is the other side of the 457 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: coin whenever. So you mentioned, okay, shipping and rail and 458 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: you know, we could talk about with the optimal number 459 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 1: of competitors of the space or so forth. But another 460 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: area that we've talked about a lot on the show 461 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: is trucking, which seems like it has it's a hundred 462 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: degrees different the barriers to entry into the space or 463 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: essentially non existent huge boom and bus cycles even in 464 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: boom times right now, companies regularly go out of business 465 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: due to lack of pricing power. Do you see industries 466 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: in which essentially would benefit from, you know, some sort 467 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 1: of greater barriers to entry, in which the supply of goods, 468 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: the supply, the stableness of prices, might benefit from some 469 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: sort of like you know where where maybe make it 470 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 1: a little bit harder to enter and exit the exit 471 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: the industry. Well, that's a dangerous question for an anti 472 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: trust lawyer, but you know, I think that, you know, 473 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: I think the answer might be more government regulation. You know, 474 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: back in the early seventies eighties, there used to be 475 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: tons of regulation who could drive trucks and which is 476 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: kind of a backdoor way of it's a kind of 477 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: a backdoor anti trust on some level. So maybe you 478 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: don't necessarily cap the competitors or whatever, but but you 479 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: like make it a little the bar a little bit higher, 480 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: and believe or not there is a ton of any 481 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: trust activity in this area because there's another calling sessions 482 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 1: and the intrust laws, but it's really granted in constitutional rights. 483 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: Competitors and get together in the lobby the government to 484 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: do legislative things that may have a adverse competitive effect. 485 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: But because you're lobbying, because you're structing your First Amendment right, 486 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: you get pushed for legislation that I wouldn't have the 487 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: effect of recent barriers that would make it part of 488 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: competitors in that all exempt from challenge under the ins 489 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: because it's part of your right dempetition. I want to 490 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: go back to the what we were talking about with 491 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: the Ocean Shipping Reform Act of and the Federal Maritime 492 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: Commissioned the of m C, because I guess my question 493 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: is how well suited is the Commission to actually take 494 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: on antitrust issues because my understanding is this is not 495 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: something that they've been doing historically because of that antitrust 496 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: exemption that you just described, So presumably this would be 497 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: a pretty big shift for them. It would be I mean, 498 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: let's start out with one fundamental problem of the fantasy 499 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: is a really small organization. I looked at up yesterday. 500 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: They're only a hundred thirty employees at the FMC. There's 501 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: five commissioners, and they only have a budget of thirty 502 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: million dollars or so. Hoping that we'll see Congress fund 503 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: them more. One thing that it's happened, so this summer, 504 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: one of the big things that happened in any Trust 505 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: in one was that President Biden and issued this Executive 506 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: Order on any Trust right around July fourth, and he 507 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: has asked all the agencies to work to just look 508 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: and try to solve lots of antitrust problems. He'd used 509 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: the world that there's been too much consolidation, too many 510 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: any trust things have let slide, and so he's really 511 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: invigorated the government to look for warning trust issues. And 512 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: so one of the things he's worried about his shipping 513 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: and coming out of that. Just in a couple of 514 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: days after the Justice Department in a trust division and 515 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: the FMC has signed an MU pledging to work more 516 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: close together. So I don't think it's gonna be the 517 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: FMC by itself, but I think also working with the 518 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: Justice Department. Now, the slip side of this is the 519 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: Justice Department in the ANEC have more resources, but there's 520 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: still also resource constrain in the middle of a major 521 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: merger wave and they are overwhelmed with the number of 522 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: mergers that they have to review. They're taking on big tax, 523 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: they're doing lots of investigations. So yeah, they'll be interesting 524 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: going after shipping, But when you put their list of 525 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: priorities in the top ten, but it's not probably at 526 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: the very top. So we're dealing with two agencies, the 527 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: FMC and the antitrust agencies, who are going to be 528 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: fairly resourced constrained. Can you just talk a little bit 529 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: more about math and numbers of the short staffing or 530 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 1: the capacity constraints, because you know, you have this idea 531 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: is like, oh, no private entity could ever match the government, 532 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: but realistically, of course they can. And these institutions only 533 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: have so many lawyers at any given time, I'm and 534 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: only so much budget. What does it often look like 535 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: in terms of the amount you know, in terms of 536 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: the legal firepower for some of these mergers versus on 537 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: the private side versus the public side. Some of the 538 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: agencies have a number of attorneys and economists that are 539 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: staffed up to look at these but you know, you're 540 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: dealing with companies that are very sophisticated that have outside council. 541 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: I work for Vinca, Milicans and we are a big 542 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: law firm in the United States, but we have only 543 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: we have a set and twenty attorneys. Uh, there's law 544 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: firms have three thousand and two thousand attorneys. So you're 545 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: dealing with situation where you know, companies can afford a 546 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: lot of attorneys, and you come to meetings and the 547 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: attorney the merchant parties may have twenty three attorneys and 548 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: the araman may have five or attorneys in the ECONO, 549 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: so it is an issue. So we're talking about obviously 550 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: supply chains and logistics, and I want to like just 551 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: go back to something again on the sort of market structure. 552 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: And you mentioned the number of competitors are un rail 553 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: and obviously the number of competitors that are in shipping, 554 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: and one of the aspects of both of those industries 555 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: is there is a sort of like I guess I 556 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: would say, very limited constrained public infrastructure. There's only so 557 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: many ports that are available and they're sort of like 558 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: quasi public or quasi private, and there's only so many 559 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: rail tracks available, and it's sort of, you know, on 560 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: rail is sort of reminiscence of the cable up companies 561 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: where there's always been challenges with shipping. How much are 562 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: these industries inherently constrained in terms of what the government 563 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: can do by simply like the lack of like public 564 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: infrastructure basically to support new competitors. I think you're seeing 565 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: it with the new legislation we were just talking about. 566 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: I think the one thing they could do is step 567 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: in and try to regulate more. The notion that you're 568 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: going to have the Federal Maritime Commission regulate rates and 569 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: think about what's reasonable, I think is something that we 570 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: may see more of. That's probably as much as they 571 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: can do. I mean, we're a capitalist society, and we 572 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: can't start doing industrial planning. I don't think so. I 573 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: think we'll just see probably more legis more regulation. So 574 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: maybe just to summit all up, what what's your sort 575 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: of gut sense about the degree to which antitrust enforcement 576 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: or legislation would actually bring down inflation and ease some 577 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: of these supply chain pressures that we've been talking about. 578 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: I think it will be a useful tool, but it's 579 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: not going to be the cure all. As I said, 580 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: some of these cases just last for a long time. 581 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: I'm involved in two cases right now that involves supply 582 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: chain management. Mentioned when earlier. We're litigating against the railroads 583 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: related to fuel searcharges that were imposed in two thousand three. 584 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: Uh So we're dealing with that and I am involved 585 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: in another case where we're dealing with supply shortages from 586 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: kind of the two thousand fifteen two thousand sixteen era. 587 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: So antitrust is generally retrospective, obviously looking at problems in 588 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,879 Speaker 1: the past. What it can be helpful though, is as 589 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: these cases get decided, the case laws established, and you know, 590 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: I think it will have an impact on how people 591 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,800 Speaker 1: do business. I also think one of the things coming 592 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: out of this is that compliance of big companies is 593 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 1: going to be very important. If you know that there's 594 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 1: gonna be an increased regulatory environment. And we've just been 595 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: talking about the United States, it's the European Commission, and 596 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,760 Speaker 1: it's Australians, it's it's the Chinese, it's everybody is becoming 597 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 1: more antitrust focused and uh focus. So if you're a company, 598 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be more important to have very 599 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,879 Speaker 1: strong compliance programs. In fact, the Justice Department has a 600 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: program that if you can come in and show that 601 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: you had an extremely good compliance program, even though you 602 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: have some antitrust problems, you can get some benefits and 603 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: some leniency from the Justice Department as a result of that. 604 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: Um So, I think that's going to be important, and 605 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: maybe stepping up the compliance will have some impact. But 606 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: so I think it's kind of where the secondary effects 607 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 1: of any trust cases. I will say one thing that 608 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: has a mediate effect is if the Justice Department sends 609 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: you a grand jury criminal subpoena in your company, gets 610 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: the attention of the CEO and the general counsel and 611 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: a lot of other folks in the company, and so 612 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: that can sometimes have a interrom effect at change behavior 613 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: if it's illegal, but it's just a slow it's it's 614 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: a useful tool, but it's a slow moving tool. Well, Craig, 615 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: that was That was really fascinating, and I'm glad you 616 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: could walk us through one of the more interesting ways 617 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: of fighting inflation. Thank you so much, My pleasure, enjoy 618 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: talking to you. That was fascinating. Thank you so much. 619 00:36:46,360 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. So, Joe, obviously, I thought that 620 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: was really interesting and one of the things that keeps 621 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: coming out of these conversations, and you know, Jene Siroka 622 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: kind of talked about it to the executive director of 623 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: the Port of Los Angeles, is this idea of Okay, 624 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: maybe antitrust enforcement isn't going to actually do what it's 625 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: supposed to do or what it's explicitly written to do 626 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: for a very long time because it's tough to push 627 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:37,240 Speaker 1: those enforcement actions through. But maybe the threat of future 628 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,320 Speaker 1: enforcement action is enough to start some sort of change 629 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: of behavior within the shipping industry itself. And this again 630 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 1: seems to be a recurring theme, Like just the idea 631 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,240 Speaker 1: of getting people involved in the supply chain to actually 632 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 1: change habits that have been ingrained for decades at this point, 633 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: that that seems to be something that people are really 634 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: trying to do right now. Yeah, no, absolutely, this idea 635 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: of like okay, and he made that point about compliance 636 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: departments and the changing norms. I do think like ultimately, 637 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 1: like okay, anti competitive behavior, part of the competitive behavior 638 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: is actually competing and investing and trying to win and 639 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: market share and offering something better. And I do think 640 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 1: that like one of the problems I have with this 641 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: in general or is like okay, but what is going 642 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: to actually get people to invest and increase capacity? And 643 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,240 Speaker 1: I still feel like, you know, obviously the legal aspect 644 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: is a big part of it, and maybe a very 645 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: big part of it, but I'm still like trying to 646 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: wrap my head or as like yeah, well, Okay, you 647 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,760 Speaker 1: can change norms around pricing or fees or penalties or whatever, 648 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: But what is going to like increase competition in like 649 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: the sort of like pure capitalist sense, right, But conversely, 650 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: you could argue that anti competitive behavior right now leads 651 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: to higher shipping prices and so people have very very 652 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: little incentive to actually increase capacity because they're already making 653 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: billions of dollars. And I think I didn't didn't Marisk 654 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: like unveil quarterly profit recently that was like its highest 655 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 1: in over a century something like that, And it seems 656 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: like this is like the type of thing which is 657 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: like the goal is hopefully to like I guess I 658 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: would say, like reach new equilibrium or like change overall 659 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: like norms throughout multiple cycles going forward, rather than something 660 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: that we hope is going to solve the problem now, 661 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: but you know, maybe at the margins there will be 662 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: some uh, some potential solution. Now. Yeah. The other interesting 663 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: thing I mean on that note is this idea of 664 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: deregulation cycles and the idea that this actually has a 665 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: lot of bipartisan support. So maybe we are starting to 666 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 1: enter a new cycle where people are more interested, where 667 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: where Washington is more interested in actually bringing down some 668 00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: of the monopolies. And again Craig was talking about this, 669 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: but we've already seen that in tech. But it is 670 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: really striking this sort of spectrum of interest that this 671 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: is attracting from both the left and the right. Yeah. No, 672 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: I thought that was probably one of the most interesting. 673 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: And it's like sort of like tropism and the sort 674 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: of like disdain for anyone in power. I guess I've 675 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: always been like, it's a little bit skeptical at this 676 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: idea that, Okay, are we actually ever going to pass legislation? 677 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: But you know, he pointed out a pretty big bills 678 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: passed the House, and maybe this changing political environment will 679 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: have some real downstream legislative effects. Maybe have been too 680 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,760 Speaker 1: skeptical of this sort of like changing public mood actually 681 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: changing and changing public law. You've underestimated people's hatred of 682 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 1: big business. I guess, yeah, maybe I have, and now 683 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: I have to really sort of change some of my 684 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,320 Speaker 1: my priors that they speak. No, I haven't really underestimated 685 00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: people's hatred, underestimated whether that hatred will change laws, and 686 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: maybe it will. Yeah, Okay, that's fair. Yeah, um, okay, Well, 687 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: shall we leave it there let's leave it there, all right. 688 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 1: This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. 689 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,359 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at 690 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Wasn't All. You can follow 691 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at the Stalwart. Follow our producer on Twitter, 692 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,720 Speaker 1: Laura Carlson. She's at Laura M. Carlson. Followed the Bloomberg 693 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: head of podcast, Francesca Levi at Francesca Today and check 694 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,280 Speaker 1: out all of our podcasts at Bloomberg under the handle 695 00:41:30,640 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: at podcasts. Thanks for listening, O