1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Today. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: I talked with two colleagues, Brian Dellett and Dick Hughes, 3 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: men I've known for a long time. Both are actors 4 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: whose lives have also been touched by our country's war 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: in Vietnam. Dell Itt, my first guest, served in Vietnam 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: after high school. Hughes traveled to Vietnam as a conscientious 7 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: objector in his early twenties. The impact of the war 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: has stayed with both of them. Brian Delitt spent on 9 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: stage in movies and on TV. He's also a playwright. 10 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: His play Memorial Day tells the story of a Vietnam 11 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,919 Speaker 1: veteran on the verge of suicide over a Memorial Day holiday. 12 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: He developed the play in collaboration with the Actor's Studio, 13 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: with support from actors like Harvey Kitel and Ellen Burston. 14 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: Memorial Day was ten years in the making dell It 15 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: started to play after he was living in New York 16 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: trying to become an actor, and one of the planes 17 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: flew over him that September morning. That's when all this 18 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: Vietnam stuff got triggered, uh In in a major way. 19 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: And I started to take pieces of it into the 20 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: actor's studio and are icons there Uh Norman Mailer Harvey 21 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: Allen said, you got to keep bringing more of this in. 22 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: And this was the beginning of what would become the 23 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: play Memorial Day. And Ellen was instrumental in helping me 24 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: shape it in terms of having a beginning, medal, and end, 25 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: and also not having to totally rely on the exact 26 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: details of my story, so that I started combining situations 27 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: that served the greater truth of what I was trying 28 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: to say. When you wrote this, and in the time 29 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: you've worked on this, I'm wondering did it bring about 30 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: interaction with other generations of soldiers? Yeah, there were some 31 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: older veterans, but there was the younger ones that started 32 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: coming around. There was a I guess like a halfway 33 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: house around the corner from the actor's studio where men 34 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: and women coming out of the service could transition into 35 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: civilian life for like the next six months if they 36 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 1: wanted to. It was I think it was on forty 37 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: three Street, and this UH guy came and he had 38 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: done a couple of tours in Afghanistan and I didn't 39 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: really know him, but we set a little a couple 40 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: of times and he said, if you do this again, 41 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 1: would you tell me let me know how? How can 42 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: I find out? And they said, well, you know, the 43 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: studio will mention it. And I think it was like 44 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: six months later. We did like two or three weekends 45 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: at this little theater called the Drilling Company up on 46 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: the Upper West Side, and he let me know that 47 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: he was bringing one of his buddies from Afghanistan that 48 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: he had been with and that they were going to 49 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: come and see it like the next night. I said, 50 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: we'll say hello afterwards. So they did. They came, and 51 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: because the play really addresses the whole notion of suicide 52 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: and the prevention of suicide ultimately is the goal of 53 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: the play, so he um, he comes with his friend 54 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: and I guess it was the next day he uh 55 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: contacts me and he says, you met my friend. You 56 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: met last night? I said yeah. He said we were 57 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: maybe two blocks away from the theater and he stopped 58 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: and said, I've been planning to kill myself the last 59 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: couple of months. I don't know what to do. At 60 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: that time, I was thinking of stopping doing this because 61 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: it was costing me money. It was no financial reward. 62 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: So that meaning when that guy said that to you, 63 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: that put the wind back in your sales for the project. Yeah, 64 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: I just thought there's a purpose for this. You know, 65 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: if one if I can keep one guy from eating 66 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: a bullet, you know, I want to go back and 67 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: I want to just do a little quick timeline. So 68 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: you grew up Brown in Jersey, raised in Pennsylvania. Your 69 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: dad sold bar related materials, mixers, alcohol or whatever, cordials. 70 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, he was what they called a missionary. 71 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: He was also a liquor salesman. But he when he 72 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: was at the height of his career, he would go 73 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: around and he would present slide shows to the wholesalers 74 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: in New Jersey and basically say, look, we use only 75 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: purified water and we do this, and they have my 76 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: sister and I have to sit through these slide shows 77 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: where they show these guys, here's that much formooth. You 78 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: wanted that Martin us an eye dropper. And then you 79 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: got drafted or you enlisted. Oh I got drafted. Was 80 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: your dad in the military. He was a World War 81 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: Two guy. He flew twenty four liberators and uh he 82 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: was actually interestingly enough, he was not like you should 83 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: do this. Like my mom said, are you going to 84 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: go to Canada? And I said, no, I'm not gonna 85 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: go to Canada. And my father he was interesting. He 86 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: just said, I don't know if this wants for us? 87 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: And where where're you going to train? Fort Bragg, North Carolina. 88 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: And it was tough because that was the home of 89 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: the eighty second Airborne and a lot of those drill 90 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: sergeants had already been to Vietnam. They were uh in 91 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: some instances there were rangers and they just didn't take 92 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: any ship um and uh um. I don't know. I 93 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: was surprised because I went in kind of less a 94 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: fair like let's get this over with. And then when 95 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: you have someone in your face like that and knows 96 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: how to scare you in the best way, and so 97 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: that was it was it really, it was a really 98 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: powerful um preparation. And also I didn't expect to thrive 99 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: in the military. I didn't know. I didn't know it's 100 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: gonna be a good shot um. And I wouldn't even 101 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: figure this out till a couple of years ago that 102 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: the eye hand thing came from archery when I was 103 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 1: like eleven, twelve, thirteen years old, because I've never had 104 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: to handle the weapon. I haven't had a weapon since 105 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: the Army, So it's like, um, it was really weird 106 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: to to to suddenly go, wow, you can. You're an 107 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: expert shot with an M fourteen and X six thing. 108 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: So finally you go and you get over there, and 109 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: I mean, you're an actress, so I'm assuming there's gonna 110 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: be an interesting description here. What does it feel like? 111 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: What does it feel like? Okay, I'll get to that 112 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: in one second. I didn't I didn't see my first 113 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: professional play until after I came back from Vietnam, so 114 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: like like I had no and I mean I have 115 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: to say, I think you're you're picking up on something, 116 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: which was I guess I was recording this, you know, 117 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: just and I mean I had the thing. I think 118 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: Stone really captures it in a platoon when you get 119 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: off the plane and you get hit with the heat 120 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: and you don't know where you are and the smell 121 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: and everything like that, it's just like you feel like 122 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: you've arrived at another planet. And so uh, in my case, 123 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: I landed in Cameron Bay and then um, I was 124 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: sent up to this area. But the place that was 125 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: called True Lie that very the very first night. Um, 126 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: that gave us some bad chow and it was hot. 127 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: This was early March of six and they gave us 128 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: warm beers and we sat down in these benches and 129 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,679 Speaker 1: they had this giant white plywood screen and we watched 130 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: the movie called The Devil's Brigade, a World War two movie. 131 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: And then um, I was right after the movie, about 132 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: twenty minutes after the movie, and I had just talked 133 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: to this guy from Philadelphia. We were talking about Acapella. Anyway, 134 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: after the movie, all of a sudden, the rockets came in. 135 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: We were getting rocketed, and I didn't know what the 136 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: hell was happening, and and they didn't tell us. They 137 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: didn't tell us where the bunkers were. You could see them, 138 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: but I wasn't paying attention, you know, I'd expect to 139 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: get hit that night. But the rockets poured in and um, 140 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: there was all the screaming and they black out everything. 141 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: They turned the lights out right away, and it's like 142 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: I hit the dirt. I'm in the sand and I 143 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: can't see anything. And it was in that moment that 144 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: I felt this and drogyn this something next to me. 145 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: Maybe just give me a kiss on the cheek, you know, 146 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: and it was really I felt it was like this 147 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: beautiful form of death. And I remember thinking, no, no, 148 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that with you, you know, 149 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: and by Jessica Lang and all that jet exactly, Yeah, totally, 150 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: And so that I pushed that away. And it was 151 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: at that moment I made this vow that somehow, some way, 152 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: I was going to get home. For people, like, when 153 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: you're in Fort Bragg and you're getting ready to deploy 154 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: and go over to Southeast Asia, do you basically are 155 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: you basically told in any terms, whether they're vague or 156 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: specific terms, and they basically are they telling you you're 157 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: going to the ship man, like you're not going to 158 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: work in some telegraph office, you're not gonna edit movies, 159 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: You're going to get a gun and you're going to 160 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: the thick of it. Did they tell you that when 161 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: you're on your way and they will tell you where 162 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: you're going? Well one plus, you don't know. If it's 163 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: hard to describe the where is July in the topography 164 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: and the geography of Vietnam, it's Um. If you go 165 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: back to when it was half and half North and 166 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: South Um, there was the second largest city was Danang 167 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: and truly was about seventy miles seventy five miles south 168 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: of Denang along the coast of the South China Sea. 169 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: When you were there, what do you do? Like drugs, alcohol, sex, food, whatever? 170 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: What did you do to get through the experience of 171 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: two years of this? Wow? Um? Well, I lived for 172 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: the letters that would come from my girlfriend Carol and 173 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: from my mom. My dad never wrote to me the 174 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: whole time, and I didn't even notice it. Why do 175 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: you think The rationalization, which I would find out in 176 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: psychoanalysis years later, was oh, he's not a letter writer. 177 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: It's like you mean you? I think this is me 178 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: getting nailed by the shrink. Did he need to disengage 179 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: because he thought maybe you weren't going to come back. 180 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean I I find when you 181 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: came back. What did he say? Well? I I never 182 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: brought it up because I just accepted it, because it 183 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: was like if people said, did your dad right you, 184 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 1: I'd say no, my mom wrote for both of them. 185 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: I had totally rationalized. But I lived for the letters. 186 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: I lived for the letters. Um. The letters from Carol 187 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: and the letters from my mom were like life sustaining. 188 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: They were tethers. And as far as the day to day, 189 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: it's truly one day at a time. Living. You're looking 190 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: at the calendar all the time. You're seeing guys who 191 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: are going to leave in thirty days. So you see 192 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: guys that are leaving, and you just do you feel 193 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: that thing in your chest. It's like, God, when's that? 194 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: When's that day going to come? There were two times 195 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: I cried in Vietnam. Um. Once when I was in 196 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: the hospital I had skin problems that were really bad. 197 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: The other time was when I left the day I 198 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: had to leave my company to come home. I was 199 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: walking to go to the jeep with my duffel bag 200 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: and a couple of the guys I was tight with 201 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: crew following me, and I started shaking. I didn't know 202 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: what was going on. I thought, what's the I've been 203 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: living for this day? And um, I'm like, I'm coming apart, 204 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: you know, And I uh, And of course they're laughing. 205 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: They're like, a man, you're going home. You know what's 206 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: your version of why one was? I made it? I'm 207 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 1: going home. Um. I have my opinions, but that's one 208 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: of the that's one of the most profoundly human emotions 209 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: you can feel is to finally be escaping the clutches 210 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: of a situation that you prayed would be over, and 211 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: it's finally over, and you just collapse. Why do you 212 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: think you collapse when it was over? You know, I 213 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,079 Speaker 1: have to. I wanted to fit this in and I 214 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: hope it's not a non sequitur. But it's as opportunities 215 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: arrived to appreciate life's beauty, mysteries, truths, and heartbreak, to 216 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: understand life on a higher plane. That's from your memoir. 217 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: That's so anyway. I don't mean to throw that idea 218 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: like this, but I felt it yesterday thinking about it, 219 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 1: which was this is going be a conversation about transformation. 220 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: We'll talk about it. We have so much to cover 221 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: therapy forget about suicidal and the deepest painful thoughts. But 222 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: how soon do you want to go to therapy after 223 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: you get back? How soon? Oh? I got sent to 224 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: a shrink at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. I had to 225 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: do my last few months at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. 226 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: So I was basically going back and forth from home. 227 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: But it was it was a disaster because I didn't 228 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: trust the guy, I mean, the key, the key things 229 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: with most veterans, and especially coming out of these situations 230 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,359 Speaker 1: is trust. You know, who did you trust him? Why? 231 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: I just didn't trust him. I didn't think I wasn't 232 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: gonna talk to him at all. And I trusted the bars. 233 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: I was into the bars and drinking, and because I 234 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: didn't drink that much in Vietnam, I had a lot 235 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: of responsibility. So I took it pretty seriously. And uh um, 236 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: I mean I'd smoked grass once in a while and 237 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: stuff like that, but it was it was really about 238 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: the work, and also I want to be as responsible 239 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: as I possibly could. When I got home, I thought 240 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: I would sleep for the next two weeks. When I 241 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: got home, I couldn't sleep. I couldn't sleep for more 242 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: than two hours a night, and every night I was 243 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: out drinking, and I had a load of cash. And 244 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: I got into trouble a couple of weeks after I 245 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: was back because I wasn't twenty one yet and in Pennsylvania, 246 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: you know, and I was getting away with it because 247 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: in those days, you had a military idea where you 248 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: had your picture on it, so and I was a 249 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: big kid, so they didn't even look at it. But 250 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 1: then I you know, I got into this scrap with 251 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: this owner of this bar, and uh, I got in 252 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: trouble and it was it was long. Not long after that, 253 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 1: there was a situation where, um, I was in New 254 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: Jersey and it was a very violent incident that took place, 255 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: um like right next to me. And it was the 256 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: day after that thereabouts, I just decided I had to 257 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: do something with my life because I was wrecking cards. 258 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: I was just I was feeling like it was me 259 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: against the world and uh and I just didn't trust 260 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: anything or anybody. And I was it with you. I 261 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: was with your girlfriend and your parents who were primary 262 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: to you while you were overseas. What was it like 263 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: when you we engaged with them? Um, I scared them. 264 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: Um My girlfriend, uh, Carol just kind of she wanted 265 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: to keep like this distance, you know, and it was 266 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: um and of course that made me crazy. And we've 267 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: had this incredible um relationship, really romantic and all that 268 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: stuff before I went over there. And when I got back, 269 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: you know, a year can change a lot of life 270 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: in a ninety twenty year old and uh so, um 271 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: so we had trouble, you know, finding our way back 272 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: to each other to the end eventually it was off. 273 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: I became a volcanic thing for the next few years. 274 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: I mean, um my, my dad was really worried. My mom. 275 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: They were worried continually, like what's he doing now? You know. 276 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: There would be like they'd see me open up the 277 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: trunk of the car and they'd be like, you know, 278 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of coats from the army and stuff like that. 279 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: They didn't know what was going on. So what what 280 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: were the coats? They were, you know, like fatigue jackets 281 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: or they were those kind of dress army coats. And 282 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: what were you doing with them? I had I was 283 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: giving them away half the time. I didn't care, you know, 284 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: it was just I was And if somebody wanted to 285 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: buy one, I'd sell for five bucks or something. When 286 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: does the acting playwriting? When did the arts take hold? 287 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: My second year of college, where did you go? Again? 288 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: You said, Bucks County Community College in Pennsylvania. What did 289 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: you study? I started just generally, and because I was 290 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: terrified of college because I had had bad reading learning 291 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: problems all through school, and so some confidence came from 292 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: the Army in terms of work ethic and stuff like that. 293 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: But I took a reading course to learn how to 294 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: really read. I had site things that I was doing 295 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: that we've never been corrected from the time I was 296 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: a kid. I got this guy. He saved me. He 297 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: just he set me up for college. It was the 298 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: first year I got my confidence because I got this 299 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: reading problem taking care of. And then in my second year, 300 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: I was thinking pretty mad because I had this confidence 301 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: I didn't have before. But I took this acting class 302 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: because I couldn't get the math teacher I wanted. He said, 303 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: get me next semester. So I, Uh. I took this 304 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: acting class, and two weeks into it, the guy said, 305 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: can you stay for a minute. So yeah, he said, 306 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: you should drop out? Why I love me drop bad? 307 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: He said, you're not You're not getting up, you're not working. 308 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: You can't just watch. So he gives me a monologue 309 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: from your good man Charlie Brown, and it's when Snoogy 310 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: goes up to fight the Red Barren. He should come 311 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: back with this next week. Don't come back. And so 312 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: I did. And I came back, and I was scared 313 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 1: the ship out of me. But I had a great time, 314 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: and I felt like, you know, I wanted to work 315 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: further into this fire. Then I got into this play 316 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: and then I started taking classes and when I transferred 317 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 1: the writer they had a really great little field apartment 318 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: there and they were right down the street from the Carter, 319 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: which is where I would do this internship. The following year, 320 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: my senior year. Um, it was in this melodrama called 321 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: Deadwood Dick and who wrote that idea? Because from like 322 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties or something. I played the sheriff and 323 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 1: it was bigger than life and I popped my arms. 324 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: Where did you do that? Where? At Fox County Community College? 325 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: I was terrified, but there was something there for me. 326 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: I knew there was something there for me. I had 327 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: no idea what was there for you? What? There was 328 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: a sense of purpose and there was a sense of 329 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: kind of just an approval. It's like you could get 330 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: this putty in yeah exactly. Yeah. And also the thing 331 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: too that that you get from the military and I'm 332 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,719 Speaker 1: just thinking of this now, but from the military and 333 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: theater film people is you have a community. You know, 334 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: it's a very specific community and it has its own language. 335 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: You're part you're you're part of a society. You get 336 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: into a society where there are rules and beliefs. I 337 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: don't want to say it's a religion, but it's rules 338 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: and beliefs and language and codes and references that are 339 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: just unique. But you're in a world where you know 340 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: the passion runs pretty deep. You walk out a writer 341 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: with a degree in theater. Yes, And where do you go? 342 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: New York? I moved to New York and I don't 343 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: know anybody. Where do you live? Well, my first apartment 344 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: was on the Upper west Side. It was between Giverside 345 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: and West End, and when it was a dodge city days, 346 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: I called it the wild Wild West. Oh yeah, wild 347 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: West May. So you're there on the Upper west Side, 348 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: And do you tell yourself, I'm going after this professional thing? 349 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: Where you were because you sound unsure about a lot 350 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: of things in your alive Yeah, did you have the 351 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: confidence to turn pro? Now? I worked in restaurants. I 352 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: worked in restaurants for for almost four years, and I 353 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: started having nightmares about the war and it was like freaky. 354 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: It was like it was like if you touched the 355 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: stove and it was hot, and six months later you 356 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: feel your hand burn. It was like that kind of 357 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: like I didn't know what to do with it. A 358 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: pure PTSD exactly, but it was, but they didn't have 359 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: the name for it yet. So I did go to 360 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: the v A and when I got to the front 361 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: entrance when it was located on twenty three Street, I 362 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: threw up and I thought, I'm not supposed to be here. 363 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: That's what that means. Ended up working with this guy, 364 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: Larry Stern. He was a psychoanalyst and he really angel 365 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: the box among us. He was the one who really 366 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: get out of the hole that I was thinking and 367 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: at the time, as it was drinking too much and 368 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: it was just a it was at sober every here. 369 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: Uh see, I stopped on my own and eighty five 370 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: got into a recovery program, and the recovery program and so, um, 371 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,479 Speaker 1: you're in the city, and uh, when you're riverside the 372 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: wild wild West, And when does the actor's studio become 373 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: an avenue for you? Oh? Not until Um I was 374 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: really putting my nose in the grindstone when I met you. 375 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: Did a little bit that little little student thing. When 376 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: I got my first job on a soap opera in 377 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: New York, they would put you in the show very sparingly. 378 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: They wanted to kind of build you into the show 379 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: so you didn't have much to do, so I worked 380 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: maybe a day. I mean if I worked two days 381 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: a week, it was it was epic and they paid 382 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: you per show. And I went and did a play 383 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: Summer Tree, a young guy whose family were pretty well 384 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: to do. They would produce him in these plays, and 385 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: I played, you know, the event, like the kid would 386 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: go into war and I would play the soldier I 387 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: would play. I played all the other ancillary characters in 388 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 1: these little bursts. So I do the play, and then 389 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: I would go to the student Film Bulletin Board at 390 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: n y U and they have casting cards put up 391 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: on the index cards wanted and I would read them. 392 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: And I ended up in a bar in Brooklyn with 393 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: you because while I was doing the soap right and 394 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: we shot that agend and the bar was closed. And 395 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,479 Speaker 1: that's crazy fucking movie about who You were an alien? 396 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: Or I was an alien? Who was the alien? Oh? No, 397 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: I mean I I just played it. I just played 398 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: a pretty weird guy with a spider on my cheek 399 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 1: or something. I think you were the alien. I think 400 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: the bar Matter of Space and were Bartender was some 401 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: crazy show. But anyway, so um, you get your equity 402 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: card win anyone. I worked in both productions in Central Park. 403 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: How did that happen? Oh? Because uh, I knew no one. 404 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: So I went to the public theater back in like 405 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: December of eighty or thereabouts, and I dropped off a 406 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: picture and resumeas ad the open door policy. And I 407 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: met a woman named Ellen Marshall who worked for Rosemary 408 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 1: Tishler Stanley soboll Le Novak, and I gave her my 409 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 1: picture resume. She said, we're not doing generals for at 410 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: least none of the six months. I said, okay, well, 411 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: thank you, and I went back. Of course, six weeks 412 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: later you were here before, right, I said, yeah. She's well, 413 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you again, and it's not Gonner six months. 414 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: That's okay. Of course I came back again. I came 415 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: back to March and then she said, and I've been 416 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 1: polishing up these couple of these good monologues. One was 417 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: a one from Henry five, one was contemporary piece, and 418 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: she um, she says, okay, come back in two weeks, 419 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: call me in two weeks and come in with the 420 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: questional monologue and contemporary. I said, okay, fine, I show up. 421 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: She said, okay, here we are into April. She said, 422 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: now I want you to come in and you're gonna 423 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: audition for the three casting directors. So I commended an 424 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: audition for the three casting directors. Then Standley has me 425 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: come in in audition for des Maconoff for a small 426 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: part and a bunch of fighting stuff in Henry four. 427 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: So I go in for that, and then and the 428 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: call back for that, Elenova came in and watched it, 429 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: and I had no idea that um I got into 430 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: Henry for. And then they called me the next day 431 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,360 Speaker 1: and they said, can you also understudy in the Tempest 432 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 1: for like Steven Keats and a couple of other actors, 433 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: And I said yeah, like holy shit. So that was 434 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: like the doorway was opening to like start to work 435 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: in the business with great people. And then and then 436 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: the studio becomes an option when not for another few 437 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: years and how does that happen? Well, I did place 438 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: at the at the public I did I did uh 439 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: Hamlet with Diane Vnora that Joe direct I saw you 440 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: in that. Oh that's right, I got you one of 441 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: the posters. I think, Yeah, I love that. Jamie who 442 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: played Forton Brass at the end, Jamie Sheridan, Oh, Proud Death. 443 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: He came in. I loved him. I loved him. I 444 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: love that production. I love Diane Vanora in that part. 445 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: Pat was going to be the first man to cast 446 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: a woman in a major production, and I thought she 447 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: was fantastic. I love it was exciting, excited. There was 448 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: just something about the humanity of it. It was so beautiful. 449 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: But I was in a play with a combination of 450 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: Vetko and the public that Joe and the Scott tom 451 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: Burke put together, so play Tracers came into be Tracers. 452 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: Was we did that. We did that for I think 453 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: eight or nine months there and then we did it 454 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: in London for the Real Court for a couple of months. 455 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: Harvey uh Kitel and de Niro came one night. That's 456 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: what would lead me to the studio. There was a 457 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: guy who had asked me to do a scene with 458 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: him there and they said, oh, we can't have non 459 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: members coming in, and Harvey said, I know this guy. 460 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: Then I worked and at that time, back in those days, 461 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: they wouldn't six. I think the moderators would not they 462 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: wouldn't give you any comments. But then Ellen had taken 463 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: over for Lee to run the place and she gave 464 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: me this kind of I don't know what to call it, 465 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: like a guest status. So I got to do that. 466 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: And then there happened to be a play we're doing. 467 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: We ended up doing Very Child, and she said that's 468 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: going to be your final audition, because I auditioned a 469 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: couple of times for judges and they said very different things, 470 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: and and she said, let's see what you're doing the 471 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 1: Very Child. And then I got in with Michael O'Keeffe 472 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: a couple other people, and that was and he seven 473 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: tell people in the time we have left, because there's 474 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: so many other things, I want to ask you, describe 475 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: what is Memorial Day about? What's what's the story. It's 476 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: a guy who's on the verge of suicide. He's basically 477 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: going to take himself out. How old viet Non better 478 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: in age, I'm seventy one. He's basically got the gun 479 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: under his chin. And here comes this character I called 480 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: Sister Blister that when he met that first night in Vietnam. 481 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: And here she comes and she's ready to help him. 482 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: She wants him to come over, and he hesitates because 483 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: he's gotten a voicemail from his daughter who's concerned, and 484 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: it breaks his resolve and he freezes and he goes 485 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: into this nether world with her because she wants him 486 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: to be clear about his decision, and they go through 487 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: the scotlet of memories. The play is about remembering. That's 488 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 1: one of the most important things veterans can do. Remember 489 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: their stories, share their stories, and have the people around them, 490 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: whether they're veterans or non veterans, to be able to listen. 491 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: And was the last time you did it out here 492 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: at the Road Theater? It was perfect and they had projections. 493 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: I'd always wanted to do it with projections because when 494 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: we took it to Vietnam, when I did it over there, 495 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: I did it with their one of their actresses. She 496 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: did it in Vietnamese, her part in Vietnamese. I did 497 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: mine in English. We had what was that like? I thought, 498 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: Oh my god, Oh my god. Did you and she 499 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: have a tear in your eye together? A couple of times. 500 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: I'm telling you, yes, she I feel it. We had 501 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: two nights and I and they were talkbacks. And when 502 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: I was there as a soldier, she was seven years old, 503 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: and and she had the year before she had done Dollhouse, 504 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,239 Speaker 1: Ibsence Dollhouse. Before that, they did all my sons. When 505 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: they found out I was from the Active Studio, they 506 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: got all excited as well. When they did the stage 507 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: Preasent Tayon was a four hundred seat house. They had screens, 508 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: big screens on both sides with Vietnamese translations for what 509 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: I was saying in English translations for what she was 510 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: saying for sub titles. What year was that, I said, 511 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: We did the play over there in two thousand fourteen. 512 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: What was your first time you'd returned to Vietnam was 513 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: when two thousand twelve you went back to Vietnam for 514 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: the first time in two thousand and twelve. Yeah, for 515 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: what purpose? I went as a veteran because this guy Dr. 516 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: Edward Tick and his organization came and saw the play 517 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: in workshop when Ellen was helping me, Um and uh 518 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: we did. He saw it, he said you should take 519 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: this to Vietnam, and I just thought that was stupid. 520 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: I just said, no, that's I'm not doing that. He said. 521 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 1: He said, you'd be surprised. The Vietnamese are more curious 522 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 1: about the American point of view now than than ever before. 523 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: So I went over as a veteran and I met 524 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: the culture ministers. Then In the second trip we set 525 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 1: up the whole thing, and then the third trip we 526 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 1: went we went there and h and I just can 527 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: I share one thing? I gotta please, please please. The 528 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: second trip I got away from I was in Hannoy 529 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: and I took a plane down to Chula, the place 530 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: I was telling about before where I was first in country. 531 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 1: And I was standing on the ground there and um, 532 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: it was right by the ocean, and I had three 533 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: Vietnamese with me, a videographer, driver, and a translator. I said, guys, 534 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: I just need a minute and I just want I 535 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 1: just wanted to be quiet and still, and I got 536 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: on my knees and there was um this feeling slash 537 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: voice which was of the guys who did not get back, 538 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,959 Speaker 1: and they were saying, we're okay, and so are you. 539 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: And it was from that moment on that's something broken, 540 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: a deeper level where I started to see their humanity, 541 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: their divinity because before that a lot there was a 542 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: lot of white knuckling and I don't trust these people. 543 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: I don't I don't see anything divined in these people. 544 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: Yes there's a lot of beauty here, Yes this this 545 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: and that and the other thing. But that was that was. 546 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: That was a cathartic um moment. That was beautiful. Also, 547 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: I just wanted to mention too, with the whole saga 548 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: with that, with that play Memorial Day and having done 549 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: it in Vietnam in front of the former enemy, and 550 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: then having filmed it and my good friend Robert Duncan 551 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: is putting together. But I think we have are close 552 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: to our final rough cut and so um yeah, we 553 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: want to start to take it out to you know, 554 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: whoever will look at it. So this involves soldiers who 555 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: we turn who you might interact with, if at all 556 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: I'm not assuming you do. But if you interact with men, 557 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: people who see the play, people who have had whatever 558 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: level of PTSD experience themselves, what do you tell them? 559 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: What's your advice to them? And what's your advice to 560 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: and what's your advice to young actors? Okay, so give 561 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: me give me the soldier first. Well, the soldier first 562 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: is uh. I feel that the most important components for 563 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: PTSD recoveries combination, spirituality and community and the bottom line 564 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: too is PTSD. If I think I can handle it 565 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: by myself, it will crush you. Bottom line. Don't be 566 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: ashamed to ask for help, ask for help. That's Brian Dellett. 567 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,959 Speaker 1: He lives in l A today. If you want to 568 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: hear more about the war in Vietnam, take a listen 569 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: to my conversation with Ken Burns and Lynn Novik on 570 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: the making of their ten part documentary about Vietnam. When 571 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: Americans talk about Vietnam, we just talked about ourselves, and 572 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: that what what we needed to do was to triangulate 573 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: with all the other perspectives, not just the enemy. It's 574 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: finding out what the civilians felt, the enemy felt, the 575 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: viet Cong felt, but then our allies, the South Vietnamese 576 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: who get treated like you know what all the time, 577 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: and their civilians and their protesters, as well as all 578 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: the servicemen that we did and everybody all the way 579 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: out to deserters and draft dodgers across the American spectrum. 580 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: And if you then do that, then the kind of 581 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: political dialectic loses its force because you realize that more 582 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: than one truth could obtain at any given moment. The 583 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: rest of that conversation can be found in our archives 584 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: at Here's the Thing dot org. This is Alec Baldwin, 585 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: and you were listening to Here's the Thing as a 586 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: young man, Dick Hughes thought he was going to enter 587 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: the priesthood, but then he transferred to Carnegie Mellon for 588 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: theater and wound up at Boston University for graduate work 589 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: in the same subject. This was the late sixties, the 590 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: Draft was underway. Hughes was a conscientious objector to the 591 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: Vietnam War, but he ended up getting a journalist visa 592 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: and going to Saigon on his own. He found a 593 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: wire service in Vietnam, but his focus became the street kids, 594 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: those making do on the street, hustling, shining shoes and stealing. 595 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: Hughes opened a shelter for these children called the Shoeshine 596 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: Boys Project. This led to a foundation with support from 597 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: people all over the world, including hughes as family and 598 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: friends from his hometown in Pittsburgh. He's from a big family, 599 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: one of seven Catholic family Pittsburgh and lived in Pittsburgh 600 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: right below the Hill Section, after which Debochco named Hill 601 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: Street Blues. Yeah, Irish Catholic family and uh yeah, I 602 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: at one point was looking at the priesthood. Do you 603 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: know why? What was it was the sense of the 604 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: drama of the Catholic church and and and the power 605 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: in a sense that the priest has, you know, all 606 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: of that is kind of attractive. I thought about becoming 607 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: a priest. Yeah, the oldest son of an oldest in 608 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: an Irish Catholic family, it's supposed to become a priest. 609 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: I was told they sold me that idea, but I 610 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: went off into actual drama, another kind of drama. You 611 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: don't go to Vietnam for US until sixty eight. I 612 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: don't go to Vietnam until nineteen sixty seven. So yeah, 613 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: as I was in bought at the graduate school in 614 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: Boston and then the theater Company Boston, Uh, Vietnam became 615 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: so enormous the moral question uh that it was it 616 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: was hard to concentrate on my acting because of that. 617 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's when it really started kind of eating 618 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: away at me. And I think in some sense I 619 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: was in a bit of a quiet rage about it, 620 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: in the sense not understanding why we were doing that, uh, 621 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: and seeing things like, uh, the generals shooting that we 622 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: had cong in the head and stuff like that. That 623 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: really uh So at that point I got drafted. So 624 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: then I had to decide in in six s seven, 625 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: you had to decide. But I now decided Okay, I 626 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: think what I'm gonna do is refuse induction and go 627 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: to and you're going to be decided. I was going 628 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: to go to where the center where this was happening. Um, 629 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: I'm going I'm gonna face this head on and I'm 630 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: not gonna do it your way. I did it my way. 631 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: And so I decided to go to Vietnam. I didn't 632 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: know anybody, I had no connections, and I had no money, 633 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: and I didn't tell anybody. Um, and you went there 634 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: to do what I was going to go there just 635 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: to try to do something to help people who were 636 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: affected by the war. Had no idea what it would be. 637 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: I was able because the university newspaper covered my draft 638 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: refusal to get an accreditation from Boston University News and 639 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: go as a quote journalist unquote. I actually did end 640 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: up doing some journalism. I ended up traveling with the 641 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: Marines and the army ended up starting dispatching new stories. 642 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: Who we started our own news agency called Dispatch News, 643 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: which Sihirst broke the Melie story through UH and with 644 00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: Asians French press a fp OAR service UH and UH 645 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: and I also UH, you know, I I wanted to 646 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 1: kind of get into combat and find out if my 647 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: philosophical objections were more than just speculations sitting in Boston, 648 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: and so I kind of thought, I'll go in to 649 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: where the battle is and see. And I wasn't there 650 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,720 Speaker 1: a week when we walked into an ambush and uh 651 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,240 Speaker 1: and I had a corporal beside me, a radio operator 652 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: bleeding from the head and uh. Sergeant goes back under 653 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,399 Speaker 1: all this fire and hands me a cocked forty five 654 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: and says, they're coming up on the rear as soon 655 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: as you see them start firing. And and I'm what's 656 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: wrong with this picture? This is a conscienous objector and 657 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: a foxhole at County End, uh, with people coming up 658 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: in the rear who may kill you. Uh. And I 659 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 1: A million things go through your head at that time. 660 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: How many other people that you encountered over there were 661 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: like you? Nobody? There no free agents that I encountered. Uh. 662 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: There were some conscients objectors who stayed in the army 663 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: and were UH medics. There were some country objectors with 664 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: the Quaker organizations than men and sing. But I haven't 665 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: yet run into anybody who just packed up and flew 666 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: off to Vietnam. And got into the airport, and when 667 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: the whole place cleared out, said all right, now where 668 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: do I go? Um. I also early on also met 669 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: some of these street children whom shine shoes and made 670 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: the living in the streets. And when I got an apartment, 671 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: I would mention from time to time, you know, a 672 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,919 Speaker 1: few folks want to come down, You're welcome to each 673 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: show or do everyone? It took a while they were 674 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but they finally did come down. 675 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: So I was on two tracks. Uh. It was covering 676 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: the war out with the military, and it was starting 677 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 1: this home for these street kids. After a year, I 678 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,240 Speaker 1: decided to turn this over to some Vietnamese students and friends. 679 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: So I spent the next seven years raising support. Those students, 680 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: brought in other students, opened up eight homes. They helped 681 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:05,399 Speaker 1: children during the war. You stayed in Vietnam? Yeah, after 682 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,479 Speaker 1: the fall. I stayed about eighteen months after the fall. 683 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: I was I may just be still doing the same thing. 684 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: I was winding down the project. You know, I think I'm, 685 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: if not the I'm one of the last Americans to leave. 686 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: I felt that that there was no reason to evacuate, 687 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: and it was really tragic that so many uh NGEO 688 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: voluntary agencies and charities were evacuating with the remaining military 689 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: and the embassy people. Because I thought, you can't just 690 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,399 Speaker 1: drop a project. Uh And in August of seventy six, 691 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: I came back to New York to close the foundation 692 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: down and go back to acting. Finally, that's that was 693 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: the plan. I was sitting there saying, I mean, I 694 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: have this image of you having tea in some cafe 695 00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: and sagon and you're reading variety. Uh No. I always 696 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: had in the back of my mind, I gotta get 697 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: this done. I gotta get this done. I want to 698 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: be an actor. I love acting. I didn't do any 699 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: of it over there. I didn't do acting over the 700 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: acting school over there. No, because you know, I was going, 701 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: I'm like a doctor in the emergency room. We were 702 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 1: going seven. We were in mortuaries and hospitals, and you know, 703 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: there was no there was never a day off. There's 704 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: never a vacation, and there was never uh cercease in 705 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 1: the tension that was there. It was it was racing, 706 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: racing against time through the whole thing, and those are 707 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 1: connections that are forever. And so I kept in contact 708 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: with sending a little money to help people from where 709 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: I could that human rights thing, uh, you know that 710 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: to get those two guys out. And then in two 711 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: thousand and five, coming across Philip Jones Griffith's Agent Orange 712 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: book and saying, you know, the last thing I need 713 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: is another Vietnam humanitarian thing. But the pictures are so graphic. 714 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 1: So when you when you described to me when you 715 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: first came across this book, this is uh one of 716 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: the best photo of journalists, uh, in the came of 717 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,839 Speaker 1: this that you gave me, Yes, Philip Jones Griffiths. It's 718 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: called Agan Orange Collateral Damage in Vietnam. Philip covered the 719 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: war and a lot of his photos are used over 720 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: and over, iconic photos, uh that you see from time 721 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 1: to time. But then he went back after the war 722 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: many times and he went to villages where Agent Orange 723 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: had been sprayed and where people had been horribly deformed 724 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: and affected illnesses by it. And he came out with 725 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: a book that has just dedicated to Agent Orange, the 726 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,359 Speaker 1: Collateral Damage, and to meet him. I knew Philip very 727 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: well from from he came to the shoeshine boy house, 728 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: so I knew him over there. He was a good friend. Yeah, 729 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,919 Speaker 1: what's the work now. Well, the effort is to get 730 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: I want to jump start serious aid to some three 731 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:53,919 Speaker 1: million victims in Vietnam through the US Congress. Uh, we've 732 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 1: had some success with that, but Agian Orange is like 733 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,959 Speaker 1: below the radar. No president from ford On ever put 734 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: Agent Orange in the budget. None Democratic Republican. You have 735 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: soldiers on each side of the war in Vietnam who 736 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 1: had healthy children before they went go to the battle 737 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: fight where it's sprayed. They come back, they have one 738 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 1: too horrific bursts and they go, yeah, that's kind of anecdotal, 739 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: you know. I think what they have to do is 740 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:26,839 Speaker 1: get damage done to their own d DNA materials. Uh. 741 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: They are in denial about it, but it's not because 742 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: it's political. It's just a kind of lethargy of the bureaucracy. 743 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: And I also I think people who are just new 744 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: to it feel it's just one more thing. They can't 745 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: make any difference about what can I do? Defects as 746 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 1: a result of dox and still being born of absolutely 747 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: to this day, dioxin is so lethal. Little parts of 748 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,800 Speaker 1: it are can wreak havoc and dioction doesn't go away, 749 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,320 Speaker 1: it stays and it's in the soil, etcetera. And people 750 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: think that a in Orange is past history, and you say, no, 751 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 1: it's right now and it's a million victims. Now when 752 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: you came back here, you came back where to New York? 753 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,839 Speaker 1: To New York? How would New York changed? New York 754 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: was dense full of people. Uh, they didn't talk to 755 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: each other on elevators like they did in Vietnam. Nobody 756 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,919 Speaker 1: held hands or touched each other. That was a little 757 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 1: bit of a cultural adjustment. Uh. But um, yeah, I 758 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: was so I was on two tracks. They're closing down 759 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 1: the foundation and going back into acting. When you come back, 760 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: how would you changed from being over there? Um? You 761 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: know what? I think one of the biggest changes I experienced, 762 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 1: especially it came out of combat. Um, Before I went 763 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: and I saw things like I mentioned the general Sagan 764 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 1: General shooting the Vietcong soldier in the head, that famous photo. 765 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: I jumped right out of my seat at that time, 766 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,799 Speaker 1: and I thought, how could we be doing this? How 767 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: could we be involved that this? But what I learned 768 00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: in combat was, uh, my darker side. I learned that 769 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: I too, under certain circumstances, could be capable of the 770 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 1: same thing. So I think what I got an education 771 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: is a more rounded sense of what human beings are 772 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: and how I could employ that in drama. That's why 773 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: I love drama so much, because I think it can 774 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: articulate almost what can't be quote articulated unquote people considered 775 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: a drama and go yes, yes, without saying exactly what 776 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: it is. And to me, that helps avoid wars, that 777 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: helps humans grow. So I I actually saw theater in 778 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 1: just as sacred or as just as profound a sense 779 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: as I did the acting work, as I'm sorry, the 780 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:42,719 Speaker 1: social work that I was doing in Vietnam. I felt 781 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,840 Speaker 1: it was as important you saw your darker side. Do 782 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 1: you want to articulate that more? Meaning you're not talking 783 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:52,399 Speaker 1: about like me? Lie, you didn't think I'm capable of anything? Oh, 784 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,840 Speaker 1: I think human beings are. No. I am capable depending 785 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: on the circumstances, depending on being pushed to it. I 786 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 1: think that's what dramas about. You know, you know this, Uh, 787 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: when you're playing a character who's up to something reprehensible, 788 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: you play them on their terms. You know, you have 789 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,800 Speaker 1: to justify why they do that. And I think people 790 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,399 Speaker 1: who who are are toying with the darker side, are 791 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 1: justifying it in some respects uh. And to me, that's 792 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 1: as much a part of the human soul as uh 793 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: the some of the brighter side of it. When you 794 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: get a sense of that, you have that capability to 795 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,279 Speaker 1: do that, you're less about judging other people and you're 796 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 1: more about I just got to use all my time 797 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 1: two in this case for me, uh, presenting theater in 798 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 1: a sense that will help educate people and answer questions 799 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: that are out of the context of black and white 800 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:47,279 Speaker 1: or or debates back and forth the Because you've dedicated 801 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: so much of your life to theater, to acting, uh, 802 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: in and around your relief work and your advocacy work, 803 00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: have you ever thought about writing a play? I have 804 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 1: a real experiences I have about the shoeshine boys and 805 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:08,919 Speaker 1: about young Dick Hughes arriving there, And um, I don't 806 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: know who would play young Dick Hughes. I could get 807 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: a little makeup down, and we want to sell some tickets, 808 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:17,719 Speaker 1: so look at the right guy to play the young 809 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:22,280 Speaker 1: And I think do a kind of documentary, uh, because 810 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 1: we have a lot of film footage and stuff like 811 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 1: that that would show how to work in another country 812 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: and do it effectively. That's one thing. The Uh when 813 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: you come back? Um, and uh is it safe to 814 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,359 Speaker 1: say that acting is the is your primary focus when 815 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: you come back and what you want to get back 816 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: to that and you want to give that everything you've got? 817 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,240 Speaker 1: And is it a case where you have this lingering 818 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: empathy for what happened back there and you're haunted by 819 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 1: what you saw? Have stopped me if I'm getting too dramatic, 820 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: But but but when it's like the Godfather Part three line, Uh, 821 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: they keep pulling me back in, you know what I mean, 822 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 1: the Pacino line meaning to go there and you want 823 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: to Are you done with that? No? I think here's 824 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 1: the funny thing about that. It makes a huge It's 825 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: it's forever there and those are connections that are forever. 826 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:13,839 Speaker 1: And so I kept in contact with sending a little 827 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,319 Speaker 1: money to help people from where I could. So it 828 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 1: was I always had a sense of being pulled again, 829 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, to tide, dragging me kind of back in, 830 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,399 Speaker 1: but acting still being the first priority. But interestingly enough, 831 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 1: I made three post war trips two thousand one, two 832 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,160 Speaker 1: thousand eight, and two thousand sixteen. And when I went 833 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: and I when I left Vietnam. There was nothing emotional 834 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 1: much about it when I got on the plane and left, 835 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,800 Speaker 1: which I thought was kind of odd making that break. 836 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:44,400 Speaker 1: But the first trip back UH, some of the grown 837 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: street kids and their families and other friends who worked 838 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,880 Speaker 1: with me UH set up visits, all reunions and kind 839 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:52,520 Speaker 1: of stuff, and we went to the airport. They had 840 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:54,879 Speaker 1: all taken a day off they couldn't afford. And as 841 00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,320 Speaker 1: I went up into the section transition section, transit section, 842 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,200 Speaker 1: they were all waving goodbye. And I got on the 843 00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 1: plane and I sobbed all the way to Hannoy, and 844 00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,240 Speaker 1: I thought why, And then I realized what had happened 845 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,879 Speaker 1: was I had gone over there, giving up everything, my job, 846 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 1: I had no money with girlfriend, my family, hadn't even 847 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,799 Speaker 1: told my family. I was going with this idea, I 848 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 1: am going to do something about this goddamn war. And 849 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,919 Speaker 1: I came back and it wasn't until I returned again 850 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,240 Speaker 1: in two thousand one that I saw that their lives 851 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,799 Speaker 1: they'd made it. So the odd thing about it was 852 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,000 Speaker 1: that that promised to myself and sixty eight was not 853 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 1: resolved until that two thousand and one of seeing them 854 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: healed and survived and healed, and that my effort in 855 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:52,840 Speaker 1: that respect was over. Dick Hughes, actor, writer, founder of 856 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:57,640 Speaker 1: the Shoeshine Boys project. This is Alec Baldwin and you 857 00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 1: were listening to Here's the Thing four