1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You From how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline and 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: I'm Kristin this week, Kris and I are taking a 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: hard look at basically straight feminisms LGBT problem. Today, specifically, 5 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: we are talking about trance exclusionary radical feminists. Now turf 6 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: as is the acronym for that is considered a slur 7 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: by some and it's considered just a neutral descriptor by others, 8 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: particularly the person who coined the term back in two 9 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: thousand eight. But we will get into all of that 10 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: in just a moment. But last time on the show, 11 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: we introduced the idea of radical feminism and the lavender menace, 12 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: and so today's episode is building off of that. But so, Kristen, 13 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: could you give us a little refresher on what the 14 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: lavender menace is? Yeah, So, the lavender menace was a 15 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:11,639 Speaker 1: term coined by feminine mystique author and president of National 16 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: Organization of Women Betty fred Dan to describe her discomfort 17 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: with feminists aligning themselves with radical feminist lesbians at the 18 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: time because she was very concerned about the credibility of 19 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: second wave feminism and considered lesbians a potential threat to 20 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:41,919 Speaker 1: that because the rampant homophobia of the time, um and 21 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: the you know, still persistent stereotyping of feminists maintained that 22 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: women who advocate for gender equality are really just man 23 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: hating lesbians, and so she thought that the so called 24 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: lavender menace might inhibit mainstream feminism from moving forward, to 25 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: which those radical lesbian feminists that she was so scared 26 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: of essentially took it on as their mantle, saying, Okay, 27 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: we will reclaim this term, we will become the lavender menace, 28 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: and we will fight against this, fighting against essentially the 29 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: people who they should be building a coalition with. And 30 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: that did end up happening. I mean, Betty for Dan 31 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: came back and and later said that she was wrong. 32 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 1: The National Organization of Women and other feminist organizations at 33 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: the time, and also people like Gloria Steinem publicly stood 34 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: up for the needs and recognition of lesbians. But it 35 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:52,959 Speaker 1: really gets to, like you said, this lingering still shortcoming 36 00:02:52,960 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: when it comes to whiteis gender straight feminists being more inclusive. 37 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: But if we zero specifically in on those radical feminists, 38 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: particularly radical lesbian feminists of the nineteen seventies of second 39 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: wave feminism. There was really a push to embrace lesbian ism, 40 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: and I know that sounds really weird, but we we 41 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: did touch on in our last episode not just being 42 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: a lesbian having relationships with women, but literally embracing the lesbian, 43 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: nonman involved lifestyle. Um even going so far as for 44 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: straight women to embrace political lesbianism as a way to 45 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: fight the patriarchy. And so part of this more radical 46 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: radical feminist outlook was that even bisexual or pan sexual 47 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: women are the enemy because they're literally sleeping with the enemy. 48 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: How can you be a true feminist fighting for tree 49 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: equality and liberation if you're having sex with men. They 50 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: were also turning their backs on butch lesbians, considering them 51 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: an unhealth the mirroring of male privilege or patriarchal sex roles, 52 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: and they maintain that women are basically perfect and that 53 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: true love can only exist between women. And it's this 54 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: focus on true womanhood in quotes that often ignored class 55 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: and race issues, but it totally barred trans women. Yeah, 56 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: and like we said, we did an entire episode on 57 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: this chapter of women's liberation in the seventies and eighties 58 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: last time. So if you want a more in depth 59 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: look at that then definitely listened to the Lavender Menace 60 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: podcast episode that came out earlier this week. But today 61 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: we're going to focus in on the contemporary transphobia within 62 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: some radical feminist circles and how this also reflects more 63 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: broadly on how people think about feminism today and what 64 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: radical feminism means. And so people might be wondering, people 65 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: who aren't familiar with the she might be wondering, why 66 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: would you bar trans women from feminism? And it has 67 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: it's directly descended from those ideas that anything that could 68 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: potentially be aligned with manhood, masculinity men in general is 69 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: considered a negative because, like I just said, that whole 70 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 1: idea of true womanhood was so critical to some of 71 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: these radical feminists groups. And so the reasoning behind excluding 72 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,119 Speaker 1: trans women from the feminist movement was that trans women, 73 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: they argued, or biologically male and are just masquerading as 74 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: women or their parodying women, and the idea that they'll 75 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: never truly understand what it means to be a woman. 76 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: They were not socialized as women, they didn't face the 77 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: same types of oppression that biological women face, and so 78 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: they end up saying, hey, you were born a man, 79 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: I consider that you are always a man. And these circles, 80 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: these old schools turf circles were certainly alive and well 81 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies. But we're really going to talk 82 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:12,679 Speaker 1: about what's going on today, especially because when you look 83 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: at criticisms of feminists, it usually is the you know, 84 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: the the turf label that gets tossed around a lot 85 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: of like, oh, well, feminism today is wrong because you're 86 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: not really advocating for gender equality because you have some 87 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: of these radical feminists out here who are mis and droous, 88 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: who want nothing to do with men who are and 89 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: that is not equality at all. So this is it's 90 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: I think an important clarifying conversation to have to narrow 91 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 1: down who turfs really are in terms of being a 92 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: small segment of the feminist spectrum, and how they are 93 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 1: even distinct from radical feminists, and how radical feminists or 94 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: even distinct from would we say, what lower case F feminists? Yeah, 95 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: and I mean, I think it's important. Sometimes it goes 96 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: without saying, but it is important to revisit the idea 97 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: that yes, feminism does have many many branches. It is 98 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: a tree with many many branches, not all of which 99 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: overlap and get along with each other. Yeah, by the 100 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: same token too. I think it's important to frame this 101 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: conversation away from the cat fighting angle that tends to 102 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: be very attractive to the media of like, oh, look, 103 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: feminists or fighting with each other again. And I really 104 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: don't want to present this conversation about these we don't 105 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: like these women over here they're saying all these nasty things, 106 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: But rather, I don't know, take more of a bird's 107 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: eye view of the lay of the land, of what 108 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,679 Speaker 1: what's going on, how this term turf even came about, 109 00:07:55,280 --> 00:08:01,559 Speaker 1: and how the transactivism that's really you know, in full 110 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: bloom today is dealing with this transphobia that has existed 111 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:14,239 Speaker 1: historically and still today within small corners of feminism. Yeah. 112 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: So I mentioned earlier that the term turf is actually 113 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: pretty new, despite the fact that there have been anti 114 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: trans feminists in the movement from the get go. So, Kristen, 115 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: where did turf come from? So? The term is credited 116 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: to Australian blogger TikTok, who was also assist Gender Woman 117 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: um and TikTok coined it as a neutral description of 118 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: a particular group of activists that she felt, in her words, 119 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: were colonizing radical feminist discourse. Yeah, she says, it wasn't 120 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: meant to be a slur, but she is sure it 121 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: can be perceived as one in the same way that 122 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: some people might consider the words feminist or radical feminist 123 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: to be slurs, depending on the tone and context and 124 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: who's saying it, And so in that same vein, many 125 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,239 Speaker 1: of these women who were called turf's definitely opposed the term, 126 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: saying that it is a slur and that they prefer 127 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: the term man exclusionary radical feminist. But preferring the term 128 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 1: man exclusionary radical feminists also highlights their transphobia absolutely, because 129 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: they are still in calling themselves man exclusionary radical feminist 130 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: or merf's. They're still calling trans women men because that 131 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 1: it falls under the same umbrella to them. And this 132 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: whole turf merv transphobia within feminism issue seems to have 133 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: come to a head inteen when there was a piece 134 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: in The New Yorker by Michelle Goldberg writing about transphobic 135 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: feminists and trans feminists and sort of how they have 136 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: obviously like butt heads, how are they existing these same spaces, 137 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: especially in the context of growing transactivism UM. And in 138 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 1: response to that New Yorker piece, which we'll talk about 139 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: in more detail later on in the podcast, Julius Serrano, 140 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,719 Speaker 1: who's author of The Whipping Girl, wrote in The Advocate 141 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 1: quote from their point of view, they should be referred 142 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: to as murph's because they reject trans women who they 143 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,719 Speaker 1: see as men, but not trans men, who they view 144 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: as misguided women who have been brainwashed by patriarchal and 145 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: transgender agendas. Needless to say, an overwhelming majority of transgender 146 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: people rejected this framing of the issue, and Serrano, writing 147 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: that piece in The Advocate, was clarifying all of that 148 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: because she felt that the New Yorker piece didn't really 149 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: outline clearly enough the the depth of the transphobia that 150 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: a lot of these you know urfs, these trans exclusionary 151 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: radical feminists, UM, really embrace. Yeah. Well, and she was 152 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: also arguing that Goldberg painted so called turfs in a 153 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: much more sympathetic light than she did actual trans activists, 154 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: which is something that we see across a lot of 155 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: think pieces for lack of a better word, that are 156 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: around today talking about these very same issues and by 157 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: the same token too. There is a concern among radical 158 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: feminists who are not transphobic, that lumping all of this 159 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: together in this way, in the way that the New 160 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: Yorker piece and other pieces have have kind of done, 161 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: of of really muddying those waters. Um. They've worried that 162 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: it's casting a shadow on them, lumping all radical feminists 163 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: into the turf group hashtag not all rad fems exactly. Yeah, 164 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: and so it is worth uh clarifying, yes, that not 165 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: all radical feminists are transphobic, and that there are plenty 166 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: of trans ends women activists who are feminists. These you know, 167 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: there's lots of inn diagrams going on, surprise surprise in 168 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: the feminist movement. But we looked over at the turfs 169 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: dot com to get some clarification on what a trans 170 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: exclusionary radical feminist is or does, um. And they point 171 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: out that turfs as they see it, assert that trans 172 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: women or men and vice versa. Uh, and that trans 173 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: women can't actually be lesbians. Uh. They out trans people, 174 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: whether they're coworkers, colleagues, whoever. And they make the assertion 175 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: that the world would be a better place without trans people. 176 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: See the example of Bev von Door, who's a big 177 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: name turf activist and writer von Door said they expect 178 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: will be shocked to see statistics about them being killed 179 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: and don't realize some of us wish they would all 180 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: be dead. And Vonder's name is actually one that comes 181 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: up when we look at sort of the history of 182 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: that tension between feminism, radical feminism, and transactivists. Yeah, so 183 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: now is the time when we highlight a couple of 184 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: not so savory moments in radical feminist history. So in 185 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, at the West Coast Lesbian Conference, trans 186 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: folk singer Beth Elliott was threatened and eventually excluded from 187 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: the gathering of more than twelve hundred lesbian women, and 188 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: a group called the Gutter Dikes had leaflotted the conference 189 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: to protest Elliott's inclusion, and the charge was led Caroline 190 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: by none other than who by Bev von Door, who 191 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: alleged or still alleges that Elliott had stalked her and 192 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: threatened to rape her after Von Door turned Elliott down 193 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: when they were teens. And so this is really a 194 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: lightning rod moment went in the feminism. If we're going 195 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: to have the dichotomy, if we're going to say the 196 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: feminism versus trans movement, um, because it really highlighted, hey 197 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: we don't like trans people, or hey we need to 198 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: support and include trans people well, and and kind of 199 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: pulling out our focus a little bit too. This is 200 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: something that Serrano writes about in Whipping Girl in terms 201 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: of uh, just transphobia in the nineteen seventies and of 202 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:36,239 Speaker 1: trans people having a really hard time finding a welcoming 203 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: space because you have within radical feminism this transphobia happening. 204 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: And then when it comes to the gay rights movement, 205 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: in the same way that Betty for Dan was pulling 206 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: the lavender menace, the gay rights movement wasn't so open 207 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: to trans people either, because they were trying to position 208 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: their platform in more of away from gender identity and 209 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: focusing on on sexual orientation and relationship up. So they 210 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: were like, we don't have a place anywhere. Yeah. So, 211 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: at the same time that the group the gutter Dykes 212 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: are leafletting the conference to protest Elliot's inclusion, keynote speaker 213 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: Robin Morgan was blasting Elliott and trans women in general. 214 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: In her speech. She called Elliott an opportunist, infiltrator, and 215 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: a destroyer. Morgan said, I will not call a male 216 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: she thirty two years of suffering in this androcentric society 217 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: and of surviving have earned me the title woman. One 218 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: walk down the street by a male transvestite five minutes 219 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: of his being hassled, which he may enjoy, and then 220 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: he dares, he dares to think he understands our pain. 221 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: And this is a refrain that, I mean, this is 222 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: still going on, that the mis gendering, the purposeful attempt 223 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: to cause pain by misgender ing trans people, is something 224 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: that still goes on. I mean, we saw it come 225 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: out in full force when Caitlyn Jenner was on the 226 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: cover of Vanity Fair exactly. But so in the wake 227 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: of a speech and the wake and in the wake 228 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: of the leafleting, Elliott gets on stage to perform, but 229 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: the turf's got violent. They were threatening her, and they 230 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: jumped on stage to assault her. But again, not all feminists, 231 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: not all lesbians, not all women of this movement felt 232 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: the same way. Writing in the publication The Tide, which 233 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: is a lesbian newsletter, one woman did speak up for Elliott. 234 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: She wrote, this woman is insisting that Beth Elliott not 235 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: be permitted to perform because Beth is a transsexual. Beth 236 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: was on the San Francisco steering committee for the conference, 237 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: a pan of the original group that gave birth to 238 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: the idea. She's written some far out feminist songs, That's 239 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: why she's here. No, we do not cannot relate to 240 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: her as a man. We have not known her as 241 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: a man. She is a woman because she chooses to 242 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: be a woman. What right do you have to define 243 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: her sexuality? And I just thought that this was a perfect, 244 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: as I said, lightning Rod moment to highlight the division 245 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: between turfs and non turfs, basically everyone and everyone else. 246 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: And and it pedals so much in those same myths 247 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: about trans people that we have talked about on past podcasts, 248 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 1: that they're really just trying to deceive us and infiltrate 249 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: and where gender as a costume. Um. So it's just 250 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: it's so again and again and again reading about this, 251 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 1: especially the history and obviously how it's still going on today. 252 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: It's unfortunate to see people in the name of feminism 253 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: really just recycling the same kinds of lies that feminism 254 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: ultimately is trying to dismantle. Well. So, unfortunately, though that 255 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: conference and Beth Eliott's exclusion, we're not the only sour 256 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: notes in the seventies. UM. We also have Olivia Records UH, 257 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: which was a woman's music collective in Los Angeles receiving 258 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: hate mail and death threats for hiring a trans woman, 259 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: Sandy Stone, as a recording engineer and UH Stone has 260 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: written about how you know, we were all having a 261 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: great time. We were making music, we were working together 262 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: for the feminist cause for women, supporting women and other 263 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: lesbians and other feminists. It was great. And then a 264 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 1: boycott and smear campaign organized by Janice Raymond eventually drove 265 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: Stone out of the collective, which did attempt to defend her. 266 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: They pinned an essay for a lesbian publication saying that hey, 267 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: Sandy has decided to give up her male identity and 268 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: now she's faced with the same kinds of oppression that 269 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: other women and lesbian's face. She must also cope with 270 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: the ostracism that all of society imposes on a trans 271 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: sexual being like, hey, everybody has a past, but this 272 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: is the present. We need to focus on the present, 273 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: and we are all about supporting fellow women and fellow lesbians. 274 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: That is not how people like Janice Raymond saw it. No, 275 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: Janice Raymond saw it as again essentially a guy deceiving 276 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: and infiltrading a sacred female space. And I mean it's 277 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: so unfortunate too, because you know, in the bigger context, 278 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: Olivia Records was a pretty incredible thing happening if you 279 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: consider how today, but especially back then, how male dominated 280 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: the music industry was, um but silver lining. Sandy Stone 281 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: would go on to write an essay The Empire Strikes Back, 282 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: a post trans sexual manifesto that became essentially the foundation 283 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: of transgender studies around the world. Yeah, and it also 284 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: got people thinking. Robin Tyler, who was part of the 285 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: feminist comedy duo Harrison and Tyler, have been scheduled to 286 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: perform at that same conference as Beth Elliott in nineteen 287 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: seventy three, and later in an interview, she reflected on 288 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: that reaction to Stone, and she says, you know what's interesting, 289 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: rather than fighting who's oppressing us, turfs go after the 290 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: most oppressed people instead of building a coalition. And that's 291 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: just shocking to me. And Kristin that's what you said 292 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: earlier about, um, the need to sort of come together 293 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: and fight for the same thing rather than tearing each 294 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: other down exactly. UM. And then finally, we wanted to 295 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: talk about the Michigan Women's Women with a Y Music 296 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: Festival or mish Fest mitch Fest that was started in 297 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine as a women Born, Women Again, Women 298 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: with Wise event and it is still intermittently held today 299 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: and basically thousands of women would come, set up camp cooke, 300 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: take classes, and enjoy a safe space. There was one 301 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: woman reflecting on how incredible it would be to go 302 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: to this festival where you would be out in the 303 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: woods and it would be dark, but you didn't have 304 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: to be scared of the dark because you were just 305 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: surrounded by all these other women who were wanting to 306 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: have a good time. But no trans women have been 307 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: allowed because of the notion that it would endanger that 308 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: safe space and the sense of personal liberation that it offered. 309 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: And that was something too that was brought up in 310 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: that New Yorker piece by Michelle Goldberg and Julius Serrano 311 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: also commented on Missfest because it has happened in recent years, 312 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: right and there have been transactivists protests outside of the festival, 313 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: basically saying this is not okay that we're not allowed 314 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: to come share this safe space as well. Well, yeah, 315 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there were activists, but I think 316 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: what was heavily reported on was when some transactivists responded 317 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: to the trans exclusionary policy of the festival by defacing 318 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: some property, spray painting some things, um, which was another 319 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: way for Turfs and others to point and say, see, 320 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: this is essentially this is why we can't have nice 321 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: things because they're dangerous. Trans people are dangerous. Trans people 322 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: are dangerous. Um, you're deceptive, you're mentally ill, and there's 323 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: no reason that you should be included in an event 324 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,719 Speaker 1: for women with a why they say, Now, when we 325 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 1: get a little deeper into this trans exclusionary radical feminist 326 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: fight against against trans inclusion, a lot of it comes 327 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: down to this idea that trans women, especially are over 328 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: reliant on gender, are using gender as some kind of 329 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: a crutch to again to and filter, rate and deceive. Yeah, 330 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: it's sort of an it's sort of an interesting circular 331 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: argument about gender. Is it a social construction? Is it biological? 332 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: What is it? Writing in that New Yorker piece, Michelle 333 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: Goldberg says trans women say that they are women because 334 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: they feel female, that, as some put it, they have 335 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: women's brains and men's bodies. Radical feminists reject the notion 336 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: of a quote female brain. They believe that if women 337 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: think an act differently from men, it's because society forces 338 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: them to, requiring them to be sexually attractive, nurturing, and deferential. 339 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: In the words of Lear Keith, a speaker at rad 340 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: Fem's respond, femininity is quote ritualized submission. And so this 341 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: is kind of the check no boxes issue, the you 342 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: shouldn't you shouldn't feel compelled or compel others to say 343 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: that you are female or male. Trans people are hurting 344 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: themselves with surgery or hormones when they should just learn 345 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: to accept themselves as they are. You're playing into the binary. 346 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 1: Gender doesn't exist. Female is a social construct. And that's 347 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 1: an idea that Amanda Marcott over at Slate picks up 348 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 1: on when discussing writer Eleanor Burkett's argument that Caitlyn Jenner 349 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: and other trans women constitute a threat to feminism. Now, 350 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: it's worth noting that Amanda Marcott and on the other side, 351 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 1: Eleanor Burkett. There these are just two people who are 352 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: making these arguments. Plenty of other people have been part 353 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,199 Speaker 1: of this conversation, but this I thought the article of 354 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: its slate was a good highlight of the conversation, and 355 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: Marcott asks, why be suspicious of trans women's socially constructed gender? 356 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: Then if female quote unquote female is always a construct anyway, 357 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: she says, And do you really believe it's just socially 358 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: constructed if you're arguing for biologically women born women only spaces? 359 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: So it's an argument that kind of just goes in 360 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,719 Speaker 1: a circle of like, well, wait, so if you're saying 361 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: that it really is just a construct and that feminine 362 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 1: women are just putting on a costume of femininity to 363 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: appease the patriarchy, then how is the trans quote unquote 364 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: performance of gender and femininity any different than a sist 365 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: woman's performance of gender and femininity? And why should trans 366 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: women not be included in women only spaces? Well, I 367 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: would think that in this pocket of radical feminism, most 368 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 1: of us are doing it wrong in their eyes, wouldn't 369 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: you think, because you would need to divorce, divorce yourself 370 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 1: of any outer trappings of femininity in order to truly 371 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: achieve this this idea of feminism that they have, right, Yeah, 372 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, And and I mean, Kristen, you mentioned 373 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: muddying the waters earlier. And I mean, the things that 374 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: we're touching on at the moment are they're not all 375 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: from the same people. And I think that's what makes 376 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: it complicated. Because some radical feminists are saying, divorce yourself 377 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: from everything that is male and masculine and be androgynous. 378 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: Some people are saying, embrace everything that is feminine and 379 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,719 Speaker 1: womanly in you. Some people are just saying, like, just 380 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: turn away from men and just sleep with women or 381 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: live with women and don't you know, have any connection 382 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: to men at all. So, but not all of these 383 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: different groups are saying the same thing. I mean, it's 384 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: honestly mind boggling and seems to lead to dead ends 385 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: whichever way you turn. Yeah, and it's also it's also 386 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,959 Speaker 1: I don't know how productive it is to tell people 387 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: how to live and what's like, I mean, I think 388 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: conversations about the patriarchy or odd viously important and enlightening. 389 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: And I'm not sure that to me, it's akin to 390 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: saying the roof is leaking, so I just burned down 391 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: the whole house. Yeah, um, but you know I love 392 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: an h G TV metaphor, let's renovate this feminist house. 393 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: That's right. Well, you know women are good at interior 394 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: decor so. In the first half of the show, we 395 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: focus a lot on transphobia. But now let's talk about transactivism, 396 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 1: because transactivists are loud and proud, and transgender people are 397 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: more visible than ever before and actively fighting and simply 398 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: by living and being vocal, are are fighting these turf 399 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: stereotypes circling around hate, fear, and exclusion. I mean, you 400 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: have people like Laverne Cox and Janet Mak, Caitlin Jenner, 401 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: and Jazz Jennings to only name four who are putting 402 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: human faces on the issue that really didn't exist with 403 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: this level of visibility at all in say the seventies 404 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: or eighties. Yeah. I mean, certainly transactivists are just as 405 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: vocal as they always have been, but it's just now 406 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 1: I feel like that they're being heard, that people are 407 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: willing to say, Okay, no, wait, what are you saying, 408 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 1: Let's actually listen to this and actually give you a 409 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: chance to speak. Um. These activists are fighting for inclusion, yes, 410 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: but they're also fighting for safety, for recognition of their 411 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: right to exist and to be taken seriously. They're advocating 412 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: for things like admission to women's only colleges and acceptance 413 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: in spaces supposedly only for women. Like we mentioned at 414 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: the top of the podcast, they're also raising awareness about 415 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,239 Speaker 1: the number of trans people killed every year, which in 416 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: the US as of mid August was at fifteen according 417 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: to an article in Time magazine. And they're still fighting 418 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: this stigma that being trans is a mental illness, that 419 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: their sexual deviance, that their deceptive, or just that it's 420 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: a passing phase. They'll change their minds because one common 421 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: refrain among trans exclusionary radical feminists is that trans women 422 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: suffer from something called autogyn ophelia or sexual arousal at 423 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: the thought of being female or having female genitalia. And 424 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: his term was coined by a guy named Ray Blanchard 425 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: who's a retired psychiatry professor, who used it to describe 426 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: a neurotic compulsion to become a woman rather than it 427 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: conceived female identity. So again, I mean, it's just like 428 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: framing them as deviance, as this is just being a 429 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: fetish essentially. And some of the heroes of the turf 430 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: movement or platform or position are those individuals who have 431 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: transitioned and who then have come out and said that 432 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: they regretted their decision and went back to living as 433 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: a man or a woman. Um. These people are often 434 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: cited by turfs as saying, see, you just get a 435 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: little therapy and it all gets straightened out in your head. Oh, 436 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: but that sounds so similar to conversion therapy. Gay conversion therapy, 437 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: where in those on the way opposite end of the spectrum, 438 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: where you have hyper conservative people who do elevate people 439 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: who have come out and then gone back in the 440 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: closet quote unquote thanks to conversion therapy. Their elevated say 441 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: oh look see see it's just a phase. Yeah, when 442 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: in reality, no one individual of any type of group 443 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: can stand for an entire population. And I should also 444 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: clarify to the distinction between we're talking about gender identity 445 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: in terms of the trans issue and sexual orientation with 446 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: the gay conversion therapy. So a little apple's oranges, but 447 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: nonetheless startling similarities between these two groups which are ideologically 448 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: on opposite ends of the political spectrum. And a big 449 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: aspect of transactivism too is fighting against actions that are 450 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: specifically intended to oppress them, not just insensitivity or maybe 451 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: a little ignorance on the part of sis people, but 452 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: things like miss gendering or refusing to use the correct 453 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: or preferred pronouns. Uh. This is big with writer Sheila Jeffreys. 454 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: Tour writer Sheila Jeffreys, who does refuse to use preferred pronouns. 455 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: She writes that used by men of feminine pronouns conceals 456 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: the masculine privilege bestowed upon them by virtue of having 457 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: been placed in and brought up in the male sex cast. 458 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: So there's no acknowledgement there that trans women are women. 459 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: There's still that assertion that no trans women are just 460 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: men who are putting on a costume. And part of 461 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: transactivism against CIS, sexism and society does involve too speaking 462 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: out on things that they perceive as oppressive, regardless of intention, 463 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: So things like celebrations of sists, women's bodies, and biology. 464 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: So we did an entire podcast, for instance, all about 465 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: this period pride movement in quotes at a celebration of 466 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: menistruation culturally like we've kind of never seen before really, 467 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: things like that. Um, things like the vagina monologues there 468 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: have been on on some college campuses. Vagina monologue performances 469 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: canceled because they're seen as trans exclusionary, and also things 470 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: like the quote unquote real women or real beauty ads 471 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: that we've seen. We've seen a huge uptick in this 472 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: from companies like Dove or Pantine who focus on this 473 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: real womanhood, which is sort of an indirect throwback to 474 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: the early rad fem claim of embracing true womanhood is 475 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: the way to um achieve true liberation. They draw links 476 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: between you know, how can you say that these women 477 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: in this ad are true women? What is a true woman? Right? 478 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: And and this too, you know, gets to the body 479 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: positivity things like real women have curves and things like 480 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: that of stepping back and saying, wait, what do we 481 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: really mean by real And also within the healthcare scope, 482 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: ignoring that trans men can get pregnant and also have 483 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: periods and abortion reproductive rights as a trans issue too, 484 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: or holding women only events that expressly exclude trans women, 485 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: or not admitting trans women to women's colleges. That's been 486 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: a huge issue in the past few years. Yeah, and 487 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: so it's it's these it's this area, this area of well, 488 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: we don't mean to offend you or we don't mean 489 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: to exclude you, and trans people saying well, but you're 490 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: excluding me and a fending me and oppressing me anyway, 491 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: regardless of your intention. It's this sort of area that's 492 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: getting a lot of coverage in the think pieces nowadays, 493 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: people writing about feminism and trans inclusion or exclusion, because 494 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: a lot of writers, particularly SIS women, have been very 495 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:24,959 Speaker 1: vocal about saying not everything can be for everybody. Uh, 496 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: you're just being too politically correct, You're being too sensitive, 497 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: and they're essentially telling these transactivists to calm down, which 498 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 1: we all know telling someone to calm down never works 499 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: out well. I mean, there are plenty of people who 500 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily be called radical feminists otherwise, but who have 501 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 1: still by activists earned that turf name because they say 502 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: that these transactivists are taking things too far. One of 503 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 1: those people is Brent Margrad Monica Potts, who talked about 504 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 1: the whole women's college issue in The New Republic in February. 505 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 1: She points that for women's only colleges except trans women 506 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: and to except trans men, and she in her essay, 507 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: which I thought was pretty reminiscent of the complaints that 508 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: we've talked about over political correctness, Potts argues that women 509 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: still like super duper need the confidence incubator that is 510 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: the woman only college setting, and she says that erasing 511 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: references to women sisterhood and their bodies or like you said, 512 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: kristin canceling performances of the Vagina Monologues is indistinguishable from 513 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 1: old school misogyny. So her the crux of her argument 514 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: is that it should be okay that not everything, all 515 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,399 Speaker 1: the time is for everybody. Um. But then she does 516 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,879 Speaker 1: go on to say that women's spaces and language are targeted, 517 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: which is a pretty loaded term, are targeted by transactivists 518 00:35:55,239 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: because women readily give up power. She writes, quote women, 519 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: especially young ones, hold power so delicately and uncomfortably they're 520 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: ready to give it up as soon as someone accuses 521 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 1: them of being selfish. Which this was the off ramp 522 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: for me in this piece where I don't agree with 523 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: that at all. I think that saying that it's being targeted, 524 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 1: um strategically like that is uh, well, I'll just say 525 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: I don't agree that it's being strategically targeted like that 526 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 1: because I think that also again paints trans people as 527 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: devious rather than seeking safe spaces as they've been seeking 528 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: for so long. Yeah, So she she basically goes on 529 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,839 Speaker 1: to say that, hey, there's plenty of other liberal arts 530 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: schools that are safe spaces for gender questioning students or 531 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 1: or sexuality questioning students, many of them being former women's 532 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 1: only colleges. Um, So basically, why don't you just go 533 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: there and leave our women's only colleges alone, you trans people. 534 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: An unrelated note, there are some people concerned about, you know, 535 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: these these women who are not turfs being labeled turfs 536 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: for like Monica Potts is doing raising, you know, a 537 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 1: need for which he says, these sacred spaces, the sisterhoods 538 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: and things like that. For someone like that to then 539 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: be by some activists called a turf, that that is 540 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: simply a weapon also to silence women. So it's like, 541 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: are we are we really progressing the conversation or is 542 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: everyone just trying to tell everyone else to shut up? 543 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: What's going on? It kind of feels like everybody's telling 544 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: each other to shut up. McDonald, which is a pseudonym 545 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:44,959 Speaker 1: by the way, was writing in The New Statesman also 546 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:52,399 Speaker 1: in February and says that, uh, the transactivists who are 547 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: like pots was talking about, wanting to be included in 548 00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: women's only spaces are a small subset of ex dreamists 549 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: who are trying to impose their definition of reality and 550 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 1: their political agenda on everyone. And McDonald too points out 551 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: the whole vagina monologues cancelation issue in addition to complaints 552 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 1: about discussions of pregnancy and abortion rights and menstruation. So 553 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: I think Pots and McDonald, the anonymous McDonald are basically 554 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: saying we should be able to accept trans people for 555 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: who they are and also celebrate women's bodies and spaces 556 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: and not be called turfs because of it, basically saying 557 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: that those two things can coexist. And you know that 558 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: one issue that people like Pots and McDonald and a 559 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: lot of just media outlets in general, when reporting on 560 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: this kind of issue bring up our uh, people labeled 561 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: turfs having their appearances at college campuses or in public 562 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: spaces hand sold due to outcries from transactivists or just 563 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 1: feminist activists who are like, no, get your hate speech 564 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: away from me. Um and Julius Serrano, whom we mentioned 565 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: earlier in the podcast. Um wrote about this as well 566 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 1: in her response piece and the Advocate to that New 567 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: Yorker piece that really got a lot of people talking 568 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: and thinking about this in and she said, you know, sure, 569 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: turfs should be free to speak and assemble whenever, wherever, 570 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,359 Speaker 1: but an l g pt Q organization would be hypocritical 571 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: to host performers who advocate for trans woman exclusion. And 572 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: isn't a college that claims to protect students and faculty 573 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,400 Speaker 1: from gender based discrimination facing a conflict of interest if 574 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: it invites the speaker who says trans people are just 575 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: sexually deviant. Yeah good point, Yeah, good point. But in 576 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: that Advocate piece, one thing that Toronto really hammered home 577 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: was that her far bigger concern with all of this 578 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 1: is the media. And I think that we're part of this, Caroline, 579 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,240 Speaker 1: because we were talking about this exact thing, the media 580 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:18,479 Speaker 1: focusing so much and debating so much over this kind 581 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: of transactivism rather than talking about the very real day 582 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: to day experiences and discrimination and violence that trans people face. 583 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 1: You know, one of the things that she was most 584 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: distraught about with that New Yorker piece was that it 585 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: simply posed this whole thing as a cat fight of 586 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,919 Speaker 1: this group versus this group, where she was like, no, 587 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: this is not this is a distracting No, this is 588 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 1: distracting focus away from where the real attention needs to 589 00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: be placed in terms of actually improving trans people's lives, 590 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: because when we focus so much on this, it paints 591 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,760 Speaker 1: trans people as just out to take away everything again, 592 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:15,359 Speaker 1: as being interlopers. So, on the one hand, I think 593 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: it was really important that we have this conversation about 594 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: turfs because of the way, you know, as we talked 595 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,839 Speaker 1: about at the top of the podcast, how the term 596 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: the acronym has taken on a life of its own, 597 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 1: and how a lot of people wield it without really 598 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,439 Speaker 1: understanding it. I think it's important to talk about that. 599 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 1: But is there a danger of talking about all of 600 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: this too much? Well, do you mean that perhaps we 601 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,840 Speaker 1: should focus more on the individual people or the groups 602 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 1: of people in the conversation rather than labeling people. I 603 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,800 Speaker 1: guess what I'm thinking is, I'll answer your question with 604 00:41:54,840 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 1: another question. What I'm wondering is, how do we reframe 605 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 1: this conversation that is very exclusionary focused of you have 606 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 1: one group wanting to exclude these people, and you have 607 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: another group who you know is fighting against exclusion. What 608 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 1: happens if we reframe this conversation to really focus in 609 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: on inclusion, Because on the one hand, I think it's 610 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: important for us to be able to talk about women's 611 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:37,440 Speaker 1: bodies and to talk about menstruation, periods, vaginas and demetriosis, 612 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: these kinds of things, um, that we talked about on 613 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: the podcast all the time. At the same time, too, 614 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 1: you and I want to be as inclusive as possible, 615 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: and trans lives matter, and we you know, never want 616 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 1: to disinvite trans people to the party because you know, 617 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 1: we want to build coalitions. So how do we how 618 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 1: do we make all of this inclusive? Can we do? 619 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: Or am I wanting too many things at once? I 620 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: think we can be inclusive, and I know that you 621 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: and I have worked very hard to be inclusive, and 622 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: we have gotten many letters from trans listeners who say, hey, 623 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: thanks for the acknowledgement that there are different types of 624 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: bodies and that, um, different types of people have periods 625 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: or don't have periods. UM. I do think that including 626 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 1: trans people in the conversation does not do away with 627 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 1: the importance of talking about, like you said, women's biology, because, 628 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 1: especially when you've taken into the account the history of 629 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 1: women being divorced from their bodies and women's biology being 630 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 1: considered gross and dirty and too sexual and we shouldn't 631 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,880 Speaker 1: talk about it. Um, so you and I are in 632 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,839 Speaker 1: sort of an interest position of we talk a lot 633 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 1: about health and biology and sexual health and stuff like that, 634 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: but we also talk about a lot of social issues 635 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: like turfs, like transactivism. Um and so, so that's sort 636 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: of a long winded way of saying that I think 637 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: both of these conversations need to happen and exist side 638 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: by side, and that perhaps some of our conversations and 639 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,879 Speaker 1: others could be reframed to make sure that we do 640 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: include all of those different types of bodies. Well. Absolutely, 641 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,800 Speaker 1: because by the same token, we have also received letters 642 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,799 Speaker 1: and Facebook comments and tweets from people saying, hey, you 643 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,920 Speaker 1: know what, when you're talking about especially things like menstruation 644 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: and periods, don't be so sissextist about it. Recognize that 645 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 1: you know, transmit experience these things too, um, which we 646 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 1: absolutely want to do. Well. I think one thing we 647 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: can all agree on is that the term rhetoric is 648 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: very harmful. Yeah, there's absolutely no reason to why why 649 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 1: I try to harm? Why try to harm others emotionally, physically, mentally? Um, 650 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: why would you out a trans person or or a 651 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 1: gay person or anyone? Why would you why would you 652 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:32,840 Speaker 1: target people in order to cause pain. And I understand 653 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:40,800 Speaker 1: that some radical feminists have the perspective that anything tied 654 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:46,680 Speaker 1: to men at all, ever, is the enemy, but that's 655 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:53,360 Speaker 1: ignoring the very real, the very real fact that trans 656 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 1: women are women. Well. I also think that it really 657 00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:01,879 Speaker 1: says a lot that since this really started bubbling up 658 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, especially to now, it's not like 659 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,800 Speaker 1: we've seen the kind of massive cultural sea change really 660 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 1: embracing and advocating for turf platforms in the way that 661 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,400 Speaker 1: we have seen, especially in just the last handful of years, 662 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:25,520 Speaker 1: a legitimate cultural see change in terms of recognizing and 663 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:33,440 Speaker 1: accepting um trans people as people, and in terms of 664 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:41,879 Speaker 1: mainstream feminism of doing a more concerted job of including 665 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,480 Speaker 1: trans people as well and inviting them to the table 666 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:51,440 Speaker 1: and working as allies for you know, the issues that 667 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 1: affect them. Yeah, it's all a work in progress, Caroline, 668 00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,440 Speaker 1: it's a work in progress. I'm I'm really interested to 669 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,320 Speaker 1: hear from. But I know that there's aspects of this 670 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 1: conversation that we didn't touch on. I mean, I'm incredibly 671 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:12,080 Speaker 1: interested to hearing people from. I don't I don't want 672 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,399 Speaker 1: to say both sides of this argument because I don't 673 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: want to paint it as a catfight like like Goldberg did, 674 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 1: but I'm interested to hear from listeners. I know a 675 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,200 Speaker 1: lot of you have opinions on this well, and I 676 00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:28,239 Speaker 1: think it's just so important to remember that, like so 677 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 1: many of the isms that exist, feminism also exists on 678 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:37,320 Speaker 1: a spectrum. You know, there is no one feminism, and 679 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:44,480 Speaker 1: people often mistakenly paint feminism as wrong or misguided because 680 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,200 Speaker 1: they see this one pocket over here on the spectrum 681 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 1: and assume that the whole thing is tainted because of it. 682 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 1: So with that, Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot 683 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: Com is where you can send your letters. You can 684 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,360 Speaker 1: also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. 685 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 1: We do hope to hear from you, and we've got 686 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 1: a couple of letters to share with you right now. Well, 687 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,600 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Devon in response to 688 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,359 Speaker 1: our Feminist Anthropology episode. Devon says, I cannot thank you 689 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,920 Speaker 1: enough for doing a podcast on feminist anthropology. I studied 690 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,719 Speaker 1: Anthwer in college, and I'm not an anthropologist now, but 691 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,320 Speaker 1: I do work for a feminist organization. Despite only spending 692 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,560 Speaker 1: one week in all of my years in school studying 693 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,080 Speaker 1: feminist anthropology and spending the rest of the time on 694 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:40,200 Speaker 1: the same judgmental englishman. Anthropology had a massive impact on 695 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: my views as a feminist. Even if you don't end 696 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,120 Speaker 1: up using your Anthwer degree in a practical sense, you'll 697 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,359 Speaker 1: use it every day when you meet new people. Anthropology 698 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,720 Speaker 1: taught me the incredible skill of how to find meaning 699 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,360 Speaker 1: and the little things that build culture. Oftentimes the meetings 700 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 1: we find show longstanding evidence of the patriarchy, which is 701 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,920 Speaker 1: amazing because then we know what to fight and work against. 702 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,120 Speaker 1: We can't change the culture of sexism unless we know 703 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,960 Speaker 1: what we need to change. Then there's the rare moment 704 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:08,839 Speaker 1: when we look at a ritual or a moment and 705 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,960 Speaker 1: find that all along it's been feminist and it's been beautiful. 706 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,880 Speaker 1: There's a definite subset of anthropology that is specifically feminist, 707 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 1: but I also believe that anthropology is inherently feminist. Anything 708 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,160 Speaker 1: that makes you question the culture you live in in 709 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,359 Speaker 1: order to find a history and purpose of previously unquestioned 710 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,160 Speaker 1: actions is a feminist practice. I wasn't at all surprised 711 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,000 Speaker 1: to hear that most anthropology PhD students are women, but 712 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,160 Speaker 1: it still makes me feel good to hear that the 713 00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:38,080 Speaker 1: subject I love and an incredibly grateful for is populated 714 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,719 Speaker 1: by these smart women. Thanks again for a great listen. Well, 715 00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:45,160 Speaker 1: I've gotta let her here. From Kirsten on young women's 716 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:49,400 Speaker 1: voices and glottal fry, she writes, I'm slowly working my 717 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,480 Speaker 1: way through your extensive series and recently listen to your 718 00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:56,160 Speaker 1: episode our young Women Ruining American Speech. I'm a nineteen 719 00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,400 Speaker 1: year old female broadcast journalist for the US Air Force. 720 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,520 Speaker 1: A to cool Kirsten. Part of our training is heavily 721 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,839 Speaker 1: concentrated on our speech patterns and tone of voice. A 722 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,280 Speaker 1: lot of young women have a much more difficult time 723 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,160 Speaker 1: with the course because of glottal fry that is just 724 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:15,120 Speaker 1: so ingrained in our vocal register. They can actually fail 725 00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,880 Speaker 1: out or be reclassified if they can't unlearn it. You 726 00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,440 Speaker 1: have to audition to book the job, and many young 727 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:23,880 Speaker 1: women are turned away if older women are judging the 728 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,560 Speaker 1: audition because their voices are simply to quote young, thin 729 00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:32,760 Speaker 1: and high. We're taught to fake deeper, more authoritative voices 730 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,840 Speaker 1: by slowing down and breathing deeper. The males have a 731 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,920 Speaker 1: much easier time of the course, really only having to 732 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,680 Speaker 1: master articulation and speed, while the women have a lot 733 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:49,120 Speaker 1: more to correct to be considered terrible. Love your podcast both, 734 00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,840 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Kirsten. That is fascinating and you know 735 00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:59,279 Speaker 1: what phrase I love glottal fry delicious salty. Well, we 736 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,960 Speaker 1: can't wait to hear are from you as well, dear listener. Mom. 737 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:04,480 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email 738 00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,240 Speaker 1: address and for links to all of our social media 739 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,040 Speaker 1: as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, 740 00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,960 Speaker 1: including this one with links to our sources so you 741 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,919 Speaker 1: can read up on all of this, you could say, 742 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,920 Speaker 1: complicated stuff we've been talking about. Head on over to 743 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:28,480 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more on 744 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,000 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff 745 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:39,600 Speaker 1: works dot com