WEBVTT - How to Talk About Trump (And Other Tough Topics) at Work 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.000 It used to be accepted that you left your life 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.520 at home when you got to the office, but that's changing. 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:11.440 We're going to talk about the sensitive, uncomfortable, or even 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:15.440 just playing private things that seep into our work lives, 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:19.520 and whether workplace etiquette can catch up or whether it 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:34.959 even should. This is game plan. Hi, I'm Francesca Levi 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.080 and I'm Rebecca Greenfield, and today we are going to 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:41.440 talk about all of the things it's really hard to 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.440 talk about at work. Yeah, And what first got us 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:48.680 thinking about this was politics. Um, these days, with so 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:53.520 much news and u divisive president, it seems like people 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:58.320 cannot stop talking about politics in the office. Yeah. It's 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:02.520 it's pretty undeniable that politics or even talking about how 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:04.959 to talk about politics is just like it's in the 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.160 air right now. You had a story on this shortly 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:11.000 after the election. Yeah, I wrote a story about how 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:15.280 employees that companies are asking their bosses to be more 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:18.119 political or getting mad at their bosses for being too 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.319 political in the wrong ways. So companies like can't win 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:24.160 really if they make any comment or make no comment 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:27.320 on what President Donald Trump is doing, and employees are 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:30.920 quitting or petitioning or organizing against their bosses, which is 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:34.000 something that is unprecedented. Yeah, your story was interesting to 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.000 me because it's we often hear about like whether it's 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:39.200 okay to talk about politics at work or whether your 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:42.280 individual views have any place in the office. But this 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:44.760 was employees going one step further and saying, not only 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:46.080 do I want to talk about it at work, but 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:48.440 I want my boss to have a stand on this. Yeah. 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.360 And then the bosses were kind of struggling to figure 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.040 out the right place to land in the way they 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:56.320 never really had to think about it before. Yeah, nobody 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:58.480 knows exactly how to handle this stuff. I think that's 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:01.480 part of the problem. It's coming up more, but there 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:04.240 are no really rules for it. And another story that 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:08.440 our colleague Dinashenka wrote exemplifies that she she reported on 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:11.000 a study that showed that people were talking more about 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:14.320 politics at work, and some of them, we're getting really 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.920 anxious about it, like all this politics talk was just 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:21.080 driving them a little bit crazy. And then others felt 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.400 good about it. They felt like talking about politics with 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:27.120 their colleagues gave them common ground and made them feel 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:29.239 closer to the people that they worked with. So it's 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:31.919 like no one can agree on whether this is okay 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:33.400 or not or how we should do it, and the 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:35.960 anxious people are still doing it. It sounds like from 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:39.480 the studies there's an element of like not being able 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:43.920 to look away. Yeah. Another thing that comes up more 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:45.840 in the office, whether we like it or not, is 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:48.960 just our personal lives. I feel like, even if you 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:52.160 aren't a big oversharer, social media is going to do 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.520 the work of oversharing for you. And you don't know 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.839 if you're supposed to what you're supposed to tell your 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.120 coworkers and not, and what they kind of already know 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:05.000 from your Facebook life anyway, or your Instagram life anyway. 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.600 And it's just like this, I don't want to do 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:13.480 it personally, but it just happens. Keeping your colleagues out 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:18.240 of your expression of yourself in various social media platforms 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.040 is it feels to me like a losing battle that 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:22.920 I have just given up on. There was a time 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.040 when I was like, I will never be friends on 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:27.360 Facebook with anybody I work with, and that's just not 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:32.680 practical anymore. It's also kind of it's naughty, but that 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:36.040 means that like, even if I'm not putting really intensely 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:38.680 personal stuff on Facebook, which I might want to occasionally, 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:40.800 but even if I'm not doing that, like just liking 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:44.480 somebody else's post or I don't know if my relationship 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.160 status changed, Like little things you might not think about 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.320 are going to be common knowledge in your office. And 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.480 then as you wonder what you're supposed to say to 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:54.520 the person at work if you know that they're going 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.040 through this personal thing and you definitely liked their post 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.320 or even commented on it, but you come to the 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.000 office and it's like, well, are we gonna talk about 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:07.400 your I don't know, family issues. Yeah, people could have 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:12.000 illnesses and their families. People could have breakups, and there's 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.680 this underlying sort of assumption that everybody knows about it 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:18.800 without without really getting into it. And some people think 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:20.800 we should be talking about these things just because I'm 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:24.400 uncomfortable with it. But for example, Cheryl Sandberg, the CEO 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:28.240 of Facebook, that is her whole brand, is sharing her 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:32.240 personal life not like with her coworkers and through her 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.480 platform that she's trying to sell. And when her husband died, 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:38.240 she was very vocal on Facebook. Um and that's the 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:39.840 thing that she's trying to sell. And there are a 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:42.080 lot of companies that think that people should bring their 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.160 whole selves to work, but it's uncomfortable to talk about 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:47.040 your whole self at work. Yeah. I wonder how that 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:50.039 works in practice at the Facebook offices, Like do you 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.960 think that they really are bigger into sharing in a 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.080 personal way. I'm sure they're in their heads about it 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:58.800 if they're anything like me. And there's one issue that 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.799 comes to mind that is is kind of the ultimate 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.480 combination of what's personal and what's political, and it's just 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:08.440 really difficult to talk about it work. And that's race. 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.320 And even though we understand the importance of talking about this, 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:16.120 we're not even sure exactly how to go about it. Like, 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.320 I can't say that you and I feel really comfortable 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.400 talking about race in the office as a day to 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.560 day thing. Yeah. Very many people that's the reality of 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:26.400 their lives, and you and I have the privilege of 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:29.240 not thinking about it um when we get to work. 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.080 That being said, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:33.840 about it. Like a lot of these things, maybe we 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:38.200 should have a vocabulary and office etiquette about talking about it. Yeah, 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.760 So we reached out to somebody who's literally writing the 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:50.640 book on this. Idioma Olio is a writer speaker and 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:53.600 editor at large at the Establishment. She's writing a book 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:55.600 called So You Want to Talk About Race, which will 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.080 be out in January, and we're happy to have her here. 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:03.400 I do thanks for having me. So let's just start 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:07.000 with a big question. Should people talk about race at work? Yes? 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:09.719 I mean I think it's it's not even a question 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.040 because people are talking about race at work. So I 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.400 think a good question to ask is should we be 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.960 intentionally talking about race at work? And yes, we definitely 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:21.040 should because right now we talk about race at work 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.360 in many ways, and some of them are more open 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:26.800 than others, and some are silent. But we're already talking 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.560 about it, and I think the question is whether or 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:32.480 not we should be more careful and intentional in the 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:34.920 way in which we do that. I want to get 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.440 out more what you mean by we're already talking about it? 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.080 Can you give some specific examples? I mean, some things 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:41.960 come to mind for me, but I want to know 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.120 what you're thinking of. Yeah, we already talked about race 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:47.600 at work. By you know, it's the way in which 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.880 we decide things like our dress code, what we declined 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:56.560 as professional unprofessional behavior here um, the way in which 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:00.080 we set up our hiring practices, who gets promote it, 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:04.719 who doesn't get promoted, who gets a manager's meaning, and 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:08.960 who isn't you know what sort of rules we put 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:13.400 down in our HR manuals. We talked about race all 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:15.800 of the time, and sometimes we talk about it by 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:17.800 the lack of saying it when we say that we 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:21.080 are talking about all of our employees, but we're discussing 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:25.720 things that primarily impact only white employees. We're talking about right, 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.680 you know, when we use cold language to define professionalism, 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.160 to mirror, you know, the way in which white men 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:37.080 find themselves in the office, we're talking about race. So 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:39.920 we really are talking about it all of the time. 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:42.480 We're just we just like to pretend that we're not. 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:45.960 So how do we become more intentional? As you say 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:49.040 in talking about it? You know, the primary advice I 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:53.160 like to give people, especially in our environments, because this 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.320 is an area where you know, the impetus really does 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.800 lie with those in power, is to say who isn't 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:05.320 in the room? So every discussion that you have at work, 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:08.320 if you're looking around and the majority of the people 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:09.840 in the room are the only people in the room 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:13.960 are people who look just like you. Um, you need 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:19.600 to realize that you are injecting at one sided racial 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:23.200 viewpoint into everything you're discussing, even if you don't think 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.680 it has anything to do with race, and you need 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.480 to start asking who else should be in here? So 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.080 I would say, you know, that's something to start investigating. 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:34.160 Looking around you know, your work, You'll be shocked to 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:37.080 realize who you work for. You know who gets praised 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.800 and why, who gets promoted, you know who's coming up 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.040 with these company policies all these things. If you ask 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.080 who's not in this room? I think that's a really 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.880 good start, because you're you're not going to know what 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.280 you don't know. And the first things first is you 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.199 have to get the voices that are typically heard a 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:59.679 space to safely speak. Hearing that as somebody who's not 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:04.640 particularly high up in the hierarchy. How could I do 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:07.760 that realistically? You know? Definitely, One thing I would look 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.040 at are things like, you know, even if you just 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:12.040 you know, feel like, oh, I'm just a team member. 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.160 You know, I'm not I'm not a supervisor, I'm not 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:17.520 a boss. Is to look at, you know, if you're 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:19.679 in a group situation and a person of color is 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.400 trying to talk to make sure that space is being 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:26.080 given for them. You have the privilege of being heard, right, 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.720 and that's a great a great place to make space. Also, 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.640 just you know, to know that you have the safety 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:34.480 to speak up. And the most it's going to do 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:36.880 is make things that you look at awkward. But for 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:41.160 a person of color, speaking up can get them fire. Um, 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:43.520 So really keep your eyes open and say, you know 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:45.160 what am I missing here? And so when you talk 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.840 about things like company policy, I remember when I used 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:49.720 to work, you know and keep a cool land and 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:52.440 we would you know, talk about things like you know, um, 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:56.680 child care policies, occasionally time off, you know, we would 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:59.880 talk about what sort of social events we were going 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:03.679 to do, and it always struck me how you know, 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:05.400 it was really what it feels to the majority, and 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:07.600 the majority was always going to be like But that 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.440 meant that any employees of color always really left out 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:13.560 of that discussion. And if any even white teammates had 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.280 just said, hey, what do you think, um, it would 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.440 have given more weight to anything that I or anyone 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.360 like me had to say, because otherwise people of color 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:26.800 are just viewed as you know, always being negative or 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.679 being these slayers and What they really need is support, 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:32.600 and they need people to realize that if you're only 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:36.040 hearing from people like you, you're not hearing the whole story. 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:40.200 One thing that I have noticed when I'm in environments 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.240 where I'm trying to to speak up for let's say, 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:45.120 issues of women are issues of people of color, is 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:48.160 that I feel this obligation to try and do it 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:51.920 in an unemotional way because I don't want my own 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.240 point to be discredited by sounding emotional about it. But 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:57.360 and I feel like that's a taboo that makes it 0:10:57.679 --> 0:10:59.720 harder for people to talk about these things in the office. 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:01.600 Is there a way we should be talking about these 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:03.600 things at work or should we just not be even 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:06.840 worrying about whether we sound emotionally connected to an issue 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:10.560 when we talk about it. You know, that fallacy, I 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:14.400 feel is so misleading, and it kind of you know, 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:16.600 that infects all of the ways in which we discuss 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:20.000 issues like race and gender so often, even you know, 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.000 as a writer, I will hear people say you're obviously 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.160 emotionally invested. But the truth is is what type of 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.760 person would you have to be to not be emotionally 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:32.160 is that you know these are That's the human nature. 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:36.480 And if you think you're not emotionally invested, um, that's 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.440 kind of betraying your own bias as law in order 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:43.160 to be so far removed that issues that impact you know, 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:46.040 the lives and the humanity of people different from you 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:50.320 don't affect you emotionally. Um, what type of teammate and 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.760 co worker are you? Really? So I wouldn't be afraid 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.440 of being emotional, But one thing I would definitely say 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.000 if you, if you're worried about how effectively these things 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:04.920 will be heard, is to talk about why it's emotional. 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:07.400 A lot of times we stop at the feeling, right, 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:11.040 We're like this, I feel awful, this is you know, 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:15.320 this is disenfranchising, this is silencing, This makes me angry, 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.400 This makes me sad, and it does. But what people 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.040 need to understand if they're not sitting in those emotions 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:23.720 with you, is why. And I think that there's a 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.440 great opportunity, UM in these conversations. And this is why 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:31.839 I always recommend you know, none of us are born 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:36.560 with the language to describe oppression and systems of race 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:39.840 in the way in which it impacts us. That language 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:43.719 is empowering, and because it's empowering, it's kept from us. 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.880 And it's really important to understand if you're going to 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:50.160 work and you're feeling beaten down, or if you're feeling 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.240 like something is wrong. If you see an interaction and 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.000 they're like, that didn't seem right. You know what what 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.880 they did to that to my teammates, I didn't seem right. 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:00.719 It's important then to sit with that and trying to 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.720 figure out why, because then when you talk about it, 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:05.920 and when you say, you know, watching the way that 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:09.280 you talk to so and so really angered me, you 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:13.760 can say because talking to a black man in the 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:19.280 office in this way reinforces stereotypes about black men that 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.720 keeps them unemployed, that keeps them looking at lower pay, 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:26.120 that keeps them, you know, more likely to be fired, 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.400 to be disciplined, to even find themselves in the criminal 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:33.640 justice system. And that is something to be angry about, 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:36.520 but you have to really tie it to the larger 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:42.000 issue for people who aren't making that connection automatically, and 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:44.600 then you know that anger makes sense. It doesn't mean 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.120 that you have to always consent everyone, especially if you 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:50.120 are a person of color. You really don't owe someone 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:54.040 this exhaust is investigation into your heart and soul because 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:57.400 people should be taking this upon themselves. But especially if 0:13:57.440 --> 0:13:59.760 you are, let's say, an ally trying to have these 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:04.559 kind versations UM, it will make it more effective if 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:08.320 you can really tie to the downstream impacts of these actions. 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:12.120 We're talking about these things not just because it makes 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:15.400 people of color feel more welcome in the oppose. We 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:20.280 talk about these issues because it has real measurable impacts 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:23.640 on the ability of people's color to be able to 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:29.320 pay their bills and support their families. And that matters. 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.240 And that is something you know that you should be 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.720 upset about and concerned about and sad about and angry 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.040 about UM. But if you express it and people don't 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.760 know why, it's easy for them to dismiss. So it 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.720 sounds like you think that we shouldn't try away from 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.160 our emotions. But are there things that we should avoid 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.480 when talking about issues of race that work? You know, 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:56.200 I would definitely say I would avoid jumping into discussions 0:14:56.280 --> 0:15:00.760 about race if you can't first be able to a 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:05.040 set kind of your intentions in the discussion. I think 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.360 a lot of times we find ourselves in these kind 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:12.160 of confrontational areas and our emotions are high, and it's 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.280 it's really public, and you know, things really start boiling. 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.040 But we didn't set out what our intention was, and 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.040 I think that it is almost never going to go 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.200 well if you jump into these discussions without first thing, 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.120 I'm talking to you about this, or I'm going to 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:33.640 make this an issue because I want you to understand, 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.720 you know, why this impacts me, or I want to 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:39.880 make sure that we are creating an environment that is 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:44.600 welcoming and supportive of employees of color, but definitely set 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.920 that out first um and get people to buy in 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:52.200 on that, because what often happens in these discussions is 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:54.640 people will say, well, this isn't what we're talking about anyway, 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:56.960 So this isn't what we're doing. I think it's very 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.640 clear that that's why you're having this discussion, that people 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.480 can commit to that goal on it. It gets people 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.400 in these conversations in a different mindset, you know, from 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.680 less of a why are you're taking this here too? Oh, okay, 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:14.080 you are taking this conversation here, and now I have 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:15.920 to decide if I'm the type of person who says 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:17.800 I don't want to talk about how I can make 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:20.840 this work environment more inclusive, or from the type of 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:22.760 persons who does want to talk about that, and it 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.840 changes the mindset of everyone in the conversation. So we 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.640 would definitely say, don't get into these conversations, don't get 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:32.560 heavy into them without setting that out first and kind 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.680 of get that mutual buy in. So we've been talking 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.600 a lot about dealing with racism at work and how 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.480 you talk about that and as a working person, But 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:46.440 I'm wondering how you think we should talk about race 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:51.600 when there's say a police shooting or a racially motivated crime, 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:55.320 or some sort of news story where it is affecting 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:57.400 people at work and they want to talk about it, 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.520 but they're they're not sure how they should. What do 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:03.440 you think people should do in that situation? You know, 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.200 this sort of thing can always be a little difficult, 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:09.960 but I would definitely say, especially in situations like this, 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:15.160 it's important to recognize but it when something like this happens, 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:23.199 you have grieving, scared, heartbroken coworker, and your tought priority 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.919 should be the health and safety of your teammates of 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:31.320 color and really reaching out to them and offering support 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:36.000 and making sure that you are creating an environment that 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.199 sees them. You know, one of I'll never forget. One 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:42.120 of the most you know, mentally damaging things for me 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:44.639 around the time of trade Horn Martin was I was 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:48.160 actually working in advertising at the time, is that no 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:52.120 one was talking about it. And I would go to work, 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.439 which is where I spend most of my time, and 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:56.600 people would talk about any other big issue, you know, 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.800 would talk about celebrity depths. I would talk about tone 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.760 x oversee. I talked to all of these things, and 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.359 it was like the murder of this boy that I 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:07.560 had spent days crying over and looking at my own 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.760 son and whondering if it could be him. It didn't exist, 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.280 and it as a co worker, as a community member, 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:20.120 I felt like I did make sense. And regardless of 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:24.560 what you personally think about that issue, I don't think 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:28.360 it's too much to ask that people recognize that when 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:35.640 you see the death of one of your own um 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:40.240 and such an unjust death, it's going to be traumatizing 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:42.760 and you should care about your teammates and your co 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:47.160 workers enough to acknowledge that, and I would. You can't 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:49.840 acknowledge that. You can acknowledge no matter what you think 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:55.080 of police brutality. You can say, I am really sorry 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:58.760 that someone is dead and it shouldn't be like this, 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:03.399 And I'm sorry that this is hurting my teammates and 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:08.800 my coworkers, and it hurts me because it hurts them, 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:12.240 and that that empathy, you know, that recognition of the 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.280 humanity of people of color and the experiences that they 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:18.840 have in the world is really important and it's something 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.200 that you get in the office all of the time 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.600 for any other tragedy except for what it has to 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.520 do with race. So do that. That is the least 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:29.399 you can do. And then if you want to have 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:33.800 further conversations, um, you know, I would, I would definitely 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:37.879 say that it's important to do. So don't bring it 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:40.680 to choose the people of color, don't you know. Don't 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.600 show up at the desk of a black person the 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.680 day after you see video of a black person being 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:49.639 shot by cops and say, oh, my gosh, isn't that awful? 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.119 It's you know, and so upset because they're already upset. 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:57.600 Just say, you know, are you okay? How can I 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:03.720 s import you fall advice? Because I wouldn't no to 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:08.120 not say exactly what you just said. Yeah, I mean, 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:09.920 it's really one of those things where you know you're 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:12.560 you're greeting you're suffering, and the least thing you want 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:14.960 to do at the time then is kind of hand 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:19.320 holding one else who isn't correctly impacted by it through 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:21.600 that process. And you know, plenty of people are just 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:23.359 trying to go to work and not break down crying 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:26.680 at work, and so, you know, being known, yes we 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.359 see you, we hope you're okay, and we hope we 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.159 can support you in any way that is a loving 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:37.280 opening gesture, But burdening people with your processing of their 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:41.639 pain is not. So I just want to wrap up 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:45.000 by asking, can you leave us with some other assumptions 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:46.919 that people make that they need to get rid of 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:51.000 before we can have more productive conversations at work about race? Yeah? 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:52.879 You know, I would say, if there's one thing I 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:56.879 would love for people to keep in mind, especially white people, 0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:59.520 to keep in mind, is that when you were talking 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:03.520 to some one about a specific issue on race, something 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:07.560 that happened. Let's say someone says, so and so you 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:09.440 know said this to me, and I think they said 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:14.520 it to me because I'm Hispanic, right. Um, when we're 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:18.200 talking about issues of race or ethnicity with people of color, 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:21.520 you're not talking about just one issue and so if 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:23.600 you look at it and go, oh, I wouldn't think 0:21:23.680 --> 0:21:27.560 that what you're doing is you're ignoring the fact that 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:30.800 this isn't the first time this has happened, and that 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:35.520 these issues you cannot divorce one instance from a lifetime 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:38.920 of similar instances. And so often when we talk at work, 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.040 people like to say that people of color are blowing 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:43.960 things out of proportion, but they're not. What they're doing 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:46.880 is they're able to see a lifetime of this experience. 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:49.760 What you're seeing is not just that specific issue. You're 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:52.960 also seeing what is another rock on the pile that 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:55.919 is crushing up, and you need to give it that 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:59.280 full of gravity and weight and recognize how much larger 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:02.600 that impact is that it seems to you because you 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:06.480 don't have to experience that every single day. Well as 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:09.679 with everything, it sounds like taking a little bit of 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:14.960