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Speaker 1: No one talks about that. No one talks about how

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Speaker 1: the fishing and that club went down him. You know what,

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Speaker 1: there's a reason for that, Paul.

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Speaker 2: I'm just be honest, that's a kind of a shitty take, because,

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Speaker 2: like I mean, I'm paying top dollar to be in

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Speaker 2: this hunting fishing club and fish. How good was that

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Speaker 2: fishing here? Really good? Right? Damn it? Hey, I've at

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Speaker 2: helms and welcome back to Snapfoo, a show about history's

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Speaker 2: greatest screw ups, more specifically, a show in which I

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Speaker 2: walk my wonderful guests through distinctly unwonderful moments from the past. Today,

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Speaker 2: we'll be covering the infamous Johnstown flood of eighteen eighty nine,

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Speaker 2: and our guest, Well, he's truly one of the best

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Speaker 2: in the biz. And I mean that in both the

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Speaker 2: general sense in that he's just an awesome dude, but

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Speaker 2: also he is someone who is just constantly crushing it

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Speaker 2: across like every platform in the whole business. You might

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Speaker 2: know him from TV shows like The League or Black Monday,

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Speaker 2: or his uber popular podcasts How Did This Get Made?

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Speaker 2: And unspooled? Please welcome my very dear old friend, the

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Speaker 2: great Paul Sheer Ed so.

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Speaker 1: Excited to be here because honestly, it's the only time

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Speaker 1: I've ever get any validation. You Just reading off those

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Speaker 1: credits made me feel good. I'm like, oh wow, I

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Speaker 1: mean I didn't even mention your book. You just had

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Speaker 1: a You just wrote a book.

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Speaker 2: I have a book. You know.

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Speaker 1: Look, you and I are now authors, We are best

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Speaker 1: selling authors.

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Speaker 2: Very exciting, It is very exciting. I'm very proud of us.

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Speaker 2: I was trying to think back to the origin of

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Speaker 2: our friendship, and it just it falls into that huge

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Speaker 2: basket of just wonderful people orbiting the UCB Theater in

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Speaker 2: New York City around what like nineteen ninety nine.

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Speaker 1: Right in that area, because you know, it's it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: There's certain people that like Jason Manzucas. Obviously we co

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Speaker 1: host this podcast together. I know Jason for many years.

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Speaker 1: But Jason was not somebody that was invited to my wedding,

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Speaker 1: which is a crazy thing because we weren't that close

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Speaker 1: at that point in our He's definitely a friend. He

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Speaker 1: didn't get that cut. He didn't make that cut. I

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Speaker 1: was at your wedding, you were, and the all the time,

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Speaker 1: I was.

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Speaker 2: Like, where is Jason? Why this is horrible. Meanwhile, Jason

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Speaker 2: gave a toast at my wedding. As a matter of fact.

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Speaker 1: It's wild to me that I talked to him all

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Speaker 1: the time and he was somebody that was not that

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Speaker 1: was just not a close friend at that moment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're so right in that. I feel like

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Speaker 2: there's so many people from that community that I they

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Speaker 2: somehow like merged with our DNA at that time. It's

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Speaker 2: like we we knew each other when we were just

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Speaker 2: comedy Larva wriggling around.

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Speaker 1: We were performing in an old strip club where sometimes

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Speaker 1: you'd be doing a show and people would get up

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Speaker 1: and leave and you're like, did I do a bad job? Like, no,

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Speaker 1: they just thought they were coming to a strip club,

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Speaker 1: and we're very confused for the first forty five minutes

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Speaker 1: of the show. Exactly likely, this is great, but when

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Speaker 1: are they going to take off their clothes?

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Speaker 2: I remember there was a basement that you would get

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Speaker 2: to through a trap door basically.

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Speaker 1: And here the most rookiety wooden staircase all time to

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Speaker 1: get down it.

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Speaker 2: And you would go down there and it was like

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Speaker 2: a grotto from from like sixteenth century Paris, wet brick

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Speaker 2: walls and dirt floor.

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Speaker 1: It was a it was a New York City catacomb,

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Speaker 1: if you will, that's what it was. Oh, I mean

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Speaker 1: you would see the craziest stuff and it was only

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Speaker 1: one way in and one way out. Wait, somebody was

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Speaker 1: giving haircuts down there, well, haircuts down there and on stage. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: one of the one of the resident teachers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a legend, one of the originals.

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Speaker 1: No audience, no audience, really crazy. That should have been

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Speaker 1: its own show, the Haircuts. Weirdly, it would have found

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Speaker 1: an audience too, I'm sure, actually more palatable than some

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Speaker 1: of the shows that we did experiment with. Well as

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Speaker 1: as one of the OG podcasters and one of one

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Speaker 1: of the greats in the podcasting is thank you No

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Speaker 1: truly like you've You've.

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Speaker 2: Carked out such an awesome niche. It's been so cool

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Speaker 2: to see you do a lot of shows in the studio,

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Speaker 2: you do a lot of shows live on tour. Do

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Speaker 2: you have a preference? I think yeah.

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Speaker 1: For me, I think there's something really fun about when

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Speaker 1: it's just Jason, June and I chatting with each other.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's always really a blast and we're

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Speaker 1: not playing for lass, but when we do it in

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Speaker 1: front of an audience. It's I like that. I like

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Speaker 1: the showmanship of it. I like I like getting out

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Speaker 1: in front of an audience. I like finding where the

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Speaker 1: jokes are, finding what they find funny, and kind of

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Speaker 1: chasing that because sometimes also it can get almost so

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Speaker 1: what I love about the studio is it's so casual

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Speaker 1: that sometimes you are just having a conversation and maybe

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Speaker 1: that's okay too, but like you forget like oh we

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Speaker 1: gotta like hit some more jokes or or that one

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Speaker 1: thing is funny, like and I didn't even think it

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Speaker 1: was that fun. Well, are you ready? I'm thrilled. I'm

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Speaker 1: such a fan of Nephu. The book was great, I

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Speaker 1: loved the podcast. But the thing is is I also

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Speaker 1: have experience with floods here because I'm not not a

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Speaker 1: major flood but we've I've had some flooding issues in La.

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Speaker 2: In La, you can't get over it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously there's natural disasters are awful, but flooding

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Speaker 1: is like it's infuriating because it's all there, but it's

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Speaker 1: all wrecked and you can see it and you can't stop.

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Speaker 2: It and it's and it's it.

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Speaker 1: You feel like powerless as the water comes in and

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Speaker 1: you're sleeping and I flooded. I mean I did also

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Speaker 1: flood my own house too, and I have experience in floods.

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Speaker 2: I'm excited. I'm concerned about you and your lack of

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Speaker 2: water maintenance. So, as I mentioned before, we're going to

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Speaker 2: be talking about the Johnstown flood of eighteen eighty nine.

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Speaker 1: Not the Jonestown. Not the Jonestown. Different flood.

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Speaker 2: Cool also different disaster, Yeah, very different kind of disaster.

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Speaker 2: Do you know anything about the Johnstown flood? Never heard

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Speaker 2: a thing? Okay? Oh good? Well, I mean not good.

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Speaker 2: You should know better, honestly. Okay, sorry, but this will

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Speaker 2: be fun because it's all fresh. Our story begins in

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Speaker 2: central southwestern Pennsylvania, a bustling, bucolic little city. Now, just

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Speaker 2: to orient you, Johnstown is about fifty two miles east

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Speaker 2: of Pittsburgh. Founded in eighteen hundred by Swiss immigrant Joseph John's.

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Speaker 2: It is nestled at the confluence of the Stony Creek

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Speaker 2: and Little Conamaw rivers. Now just fourteen miles upstream from

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Speaker 2: Johnstown on the Little Kanamau River is the South Fork Dam.

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Speaker 2: You know, cue the spooky music, because that's going to

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Speaker 2: be real important, real soon. I know you're you're from

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Speaker 2: Long Island originally. Do you know this area at all?

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Speaker 2: Like Western DBA, very familiar with this area. This is

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Speaker 2: right in my wheelhouse. As far as places I know,

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Speaker 2: likee from, like getaways as a family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, I've been to sesame place, w

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Speaker 1: whag is in Pennsylvania or Hershey Park.

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Speaker 2: You got all the amusement parks dialed in? All right?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 2: Eighteen eighty nine, Johnstown is thriving. It was basically the

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Speaker 2: rust Belt before it got rusty. Deal was king thanks

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Speaker 2: to the mighty Cambria Iron Company. Nearby coal mines kept

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Speaker 2: the fires burning, and the bustling, dense railroad lines all

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Speaker 2: tied it together. This was a blue collar boomtown, and

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Speaker 2: as a result, European immigrants were pouring in looking for work.

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Speaker 2: The population exploded by roughly thirty thousand people in the

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Speaker 2: mid eighteen hundreds. Now, on paper, Paul, explosive growth is great, right,

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Speaker 2: But is it always good for a community?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: I know, is it just an efficient way to stress

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Speaker 1: people out? I mean, I know this from many years

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Speaker 1: of playing the SIMS video game. You can't field too quick.

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Speaker 1: Things happen.

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Speaker 2: You know you can't. You can't keep supply and demand.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of jobs, but then you know

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Speaker 1: there're enough sewage plants exactly.

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Speaker 2: You know, things happens as someone who's known you a

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Speaker 2: long long time. So many of us have been trying

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Speaker 2: to pull you out of sim City. And I'm not

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Speaker 2: even in the sims. I'm not even doing the people.

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Speaker 2: I can't. I'm so worried about when sim goes VR

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Speaker 2: and you'll, like, just you'll be so immersed. I got

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Speaker 2: to put this baseball stadium somewhere. Well, you know, rapid

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Speaker 2: growth can often lead to corner cutting as well, and boy,

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Speaker 2: will that come into play, so watch out. At some point,

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Speaker 2: the State of Pennsylvania, or as it's formerly known, the

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Speaker 2: Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, sold two of its major infrastructure assets,

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Speaker 2: the Western Division Canal and the aforementioned South Fork Dam,

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Speaker 2: to a private investor named Henry Clay Frick. All Right,

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Speaker 2: I hope, I wish this is the origin of the

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Speaker 2: term Frickin'. I don't know if that's true, but there

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Speaker 2: will be good reason for it.

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Speaker 1: Henry Clayflick does feel to me like a I don't

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Speaker 1: know if this is the appropriate term, but like a

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Speaker 1: robber baron.

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Speaker 2: He has his name of it. Okay. He was like

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Speaker 2: buddies with Carnegie and Melon and all those guys. So

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Speaker 2: Frick was a rising industrial heavyweight in his thirties, juggling coal, steel,

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Speaker 2: and of course the society clubs, with a knack for

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Speaker 2: turning big risks into even bigger fortunes. Naturally, the steel

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Speaker 2: tycoons first order of business upon this purchase was to

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Speaker 2: convert the sleepy Lake Conomaw above the dam into wait

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Speaker 2: for it, the south Folk Hunting and Fishing Club. Oh,

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Speaker 2: because ye as we all know, rich people love to

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Speaker 2: hang out with other rich people and just shoot things.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean you have to. I mean you know

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Speaker 1: that's the thing. What are you going to do with

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Speaker 1: your spare time about that?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 1: This is interesting though, because you're saying it's a working

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Speaker 1: class town. That now is kind of it's kind of

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Speaker 1: gentrifying itself in a way.

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Speaker 2: Right. Yes, Now, this is fourteen miles upstream of Johnstown.

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Speaker 2: So we're in and it's and it's a significantly higher elevation.

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Speaker 2: We're maybe like five hundred feet higher in the mountains.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and I guess thirteen miles in the eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 1: Is that's a that's a far day like right now

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Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, that's yeah. We ain't got the

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Speaker 1: model t yet.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it's like a resort and the lake is

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Speaker 2: kind of dumpy when he buys it. But his goal

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Speaker 2: is to is to really make it this beautiful place

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Speaker 2: just for rich people to hang out and I guess

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Speaker 2: scoff at poor people maybe, is that another one of

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Speaker 2: their hobbies.

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Speaker 1: It's perfect because you're high enough and you can look down. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can shoot a bird and then look down at

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Speaker 1: the poor people and laugh at them as you eat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, your squab exactly. So to do this, to make

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Speaker 2: this resort, Frick and his resort investor Buddies lowered the

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Speaker 2: dam head to put a road across the top of it,

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Speaker 2: which reduced the dam's safety margin. He also sold off

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Speaker 2: the dam safety pipes and valves for scrap, and he

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Speaker 2: did not replace them. He slapped a fish screen over

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Speaker 2: the spillway to ensure good fishing. Yeah, they stocked this

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Speaker 2: lake with lots of good fish, because keep in mind,

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Speaker 2: it is a hunting and fishing club. Yeah, you got

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Speaker 2: to have them. You if it's in the name, you

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Speaker 2: got to make sure the fish are in the lake.

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Speaker 1: Right, and you want to make sure it's easy to

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Speaker 1: catch those fishes so you feel good about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you familiar stock that thing. Yeah. And now meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: they're also just patching various leaks in this dam. It's

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Speaker 2: a giant earthen dam with mud and straw and basically

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Speaker 2: treating critical infrastructure like a summer tiki bar. Now this

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Speaker 2: is all because some rich guys really really wanted a

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Speaker 2: pretty lake, and they wanted it fast and cheap. And

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Speaker 2: I don't know, this is a kind of horrifying pattern

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Speaker 2: in class dynamics when rich people make terrible decisions like this.

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Speaker 2: Do you think it's honest ignorance with maybe a dash

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Speaker 2: of optimism bias, or is it just straight up willful negligence?

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Speaker 1: You know, I never think that people truly are out

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Speaker 1: to hurt other people. I don't think it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna flood this down because it doesn't make it's

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Speaker 1: not good business sense. But I feel like you can

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Speaker 1: you can talk somebody into a bad idea really quickly,

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Speaker 1: where it's like, well, you know, we're just gonna lower that.

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Speaker 2: It's already high, We're just gonna lower it a little

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Speaker 2: bit we.

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Speaker 1: Need a road across the top, and it's right, and

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Speaker 1: then that's actually gonna help us. And it's a bunch

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Speaker 1: of small things that make sense, but then when you

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Speaker 1: pile them all together, it is disaster. The thing that

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Speaker 1: I'm curious about that you said that really jumped out

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Speaker 1: to me was like he took away the safety gauges

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Speaker 1: of the of the damn.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there were pipes and valves built in that that

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Speaker 2: were part of the release mechanism for for oh you know, it's.

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Speaker 1: Like that's a hard one to kind of smooth over

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Speaker 1: that for no reason.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you really dig into this, which

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Speaker 2: I encourage listeners to read more about this. David mccullaugh

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Speaker 2: wrote an incredible book about the John Sound flood, and

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Speaker 2: it's pretty I'm like you, I want to give some

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Speaker 2: benefit of the doubt, and because I think there's a

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Speaker 2: ton of just optimism bias in people like this where

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Speaker 2: it's just sort of like, I mean, this can't happen,

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Speaker 2: and it's like or this is too that's too crazy

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Speaker 2: to even contemplate that this whole massive dam could fail.

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Speaker 2: Sorry spoiler alert, but we're gonna we're gonna get there.

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Speaker 2: Wait a second. Yeah, Now, here's the good news is

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Speaker 2: that this club, but once it was finished, was enormously

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Speaker 2: successful and many of the richest men in the world

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Speaker 2: joined this club, making it instantly profitable. Now, this was

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Speaker 2: the largest reservoir in the country at the time. Okay,

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Speaker 2: it's about two miles long, roughly one mile wide, and

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Speaker 2: sixty feet deep. Lake Kanamah had basically become a summer paradise. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: fourteen miles downstream, Johnstown was churning away as the industrial

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Speaker 2: little trooper town that it was, and to make room

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Speaker 2: for this massive influx of workers that was occurring, the

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Speaker 2: steel mills had begun dumping a lot of their slag,

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Speaker 2: or the industrial refuge from the steelmaking process. They were

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Speaker 2: dumping this slag into the river to build up more

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Speaker 2: land where they could build more homes. Of course, this

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Speaker 2: had the unfortunate effect of narrowing the river bed, which

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Speaker 2: was sort of clogging it like an artery, and it

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Speaker 2: just was making it more prone to flooding. Basically, Johnstown

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Speaker 2: now had the cardiovascular health of a chain smoking borsch

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Speaker 2: belt Loungejack.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we really are we're basically we've created like

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Speaker 1: again spoiler alert the flood. We are creating the perfect

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Speaker 1: the perfect storm, really like we're building it.

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Speaker 2: Oh you stole my setup. Oh no, the perfect storm. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just gonna read it anyway, but it's

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Speaker 2: but no, you hit it right on the head. Basically,

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Speaker 2: you've got an entire region undergoing massive, very short sighted

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Speaker 2: infrastructure changes, and they are all of these things are

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Speaker 2: coalescing into wait for it, say it, the per perfect storm,

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Speaker 2: which is sadly the perfect metaphor because the actual perfect

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Speaker 2: storm is about to hit. Uh. Do you ever feel

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Speaker 2: that that movies and history both build tension the same way,

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Speaker 2: Like everything kind of feels fine, and there's that that

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Speaker 2: first act of a movie where you're just sort of

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Speaker 2: building the Djenga tower and then.

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Speaker 1: Just relaxed into it and you feel like nothing can

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Speaker 1: go wrong. I mean, Titanic is a perfect example of it.

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Speaker 1: James Cameron's Titanic. You're it looks what a wonderful film,

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Speaker 1: what a beautiful boat, what great people?

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Speaker 2: Yes? And then watch Out Yeah. Oh, and also Titanic,

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Speaker 2: that's another, that's another great example of the class dynamics

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Speaker 2: at play. The storm is upon us. A note to

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Speaker 2: my sound editor, please add some sound effects and posts.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much. It's late day. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, ye,

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Speaker 2: it's not very good. Yeah, you know, Michael Winslow, let's

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Speaker 2: be a man. And you know what, I lost that

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Speaker 2: part to bad in the reboot of course. All right,

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Speaker 2: it's late. It's late May eighteen eighty nine. A low

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Speaker 2: pressure system, that is that had formed over Nebraska and

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Speaker 2: Kansas two days earlier, was now a massive storm directly

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Speaker 2: over western central Pennsylvania, and it was for real, very scary.

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Speaker 2: It was the heaviest rainfall ever recorded in the Eastern

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Speaker 2: United States to date. Estimates say that six to ten

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Speaker 2: inches of rain fell in twenty four hours. I always

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Speaker 2: feel like those metrics are like, what, like, what does

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Speaker 2: that mean? Six to ten inches isn't very tall. But

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Speaker 2: then you're like, oh, I guess that is actually crazy

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Speaker 2: relative to what was normal for the time. And here's

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Speaker 2: the other thing is that there were still snow in

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Speaker 2: the mountains, So the rain is falling on the snow,

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Speaker 2: which is creating even more water coming from the fresh

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Speaker 2: snow melt. Creeks and streams were quickly overrun, taking down

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Speaker 2: trees and other debris. Even telegraph lines and rail lines

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Speaker 2: were starting to come down. This is just from the rainstorm.

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Speaker 2: We haven't even gotten to the real disaster yet. The

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Speaker 2: next morning, it's May thirty first, the president of the

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Speaker 2: Southfolk Fishing and Hunting Club, Elias Unger, awoke in itizzy.

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Speaker 2: It was still pouring rain and as such that damn

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Speaker 2: dam damn near was overflowing.

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Speaker 1: Well, now what do you do, May, because this is

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Speaker 1: the moment where you know, like this is the problem

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Speaker 1: with the natural disaster. You can see it start to

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Speaker 1: come right like this is it like this morning?

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Speaker 2: He knows. But what can you do? You can't. You

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Speaker 2: almost can't do anything to stop it at this point,

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Speaker 2: can you? He tries. Hunger quickly gathered a group of

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Speaker 2: men to unclog the debris. They'd put a fish strainer

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Speaker 2: basically at the spillway to keep fish from leaving the lake,

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Speaker 2: and so that was now completely clogged with debris and

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Speaker 2: so no water was getting out of the lake. It

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Speaker 2: was only rising. He sent one of his engineers, John Park,

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Speaker 2: on a horse, down to the telegraph office.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: He wanted to issue a warning to the people of Johnstown.

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Speaker 2: The damn was in danger of collapsing. Get out of there. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Now what the fantastic four new Glactus is coming there.

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Speaker 2: Get out. Get out of the city, guys, get out

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Speaker 2: of the city. I don't know what you're talking about,

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Speaker 2: but yes, exactly. This was tricky for two reasons. Number one,

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Speaker 2: I would think that if like under this kind of duress,

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Speaker 2: like sending a telegraph message actually tapping the thing, oh,

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Speaker 2: it must have been like like so hard to do, right,

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Speaker 2: Like you're just like because you're probably shaking, you're trembling,

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Speaker 2: and it's like, well.

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Speaker 1: That's why you have to hire the best. It's like,

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Speaker 1: you have to hire the best telegraph They have to

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Speaker 1: be emotionless, you know, whether you're you're breaking up with

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Speaker 1: your husband, you're telling somebody the loved one has died,

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Speaker 1: or telling you that the an impending flood is happening.

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Speaker 2: Well, to make matters worse, a telegraph line were down,

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Speaker 2: Well they're down, so we're didn't even didn't even get there.

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Speaker 2: No messages were sent to Johnstown. And even so there

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Speaker 2: were people racing down on horses and stuff, telling people.

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Speaker 2: But there had been so many false alarms that the

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Speaker 2: damn was going to burst over the previous decades that

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Speaker 2: that there was also a kind of like blase sense

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Speaker 2: about it.

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Speaker 1: This is the sky is falling kind of chicken little moment. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And this is why I think again, like we prepare

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Speaker 1: a lot for something terrible. You know, you're always like

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Speaker 1: ready for something bad to happen. And then I would

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Speaker 1: say ninety five percent of the time the worst version

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Speaker 1: doesn't happen, but you know, and then you're, oh, I

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Speaker 1: prepared for nothing.

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Speaker 2: I did all the things.

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Speaker 1: So I can imagine here that they've probably had some

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Speaker 1: moments like Okay, you know, they're not gonna they're not

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Speaker 1: buying it.

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Speaker 2: That's the whole cry wolf scenario. You get kind of

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Speaker 2: tired of freaking out and who knows. But this one,

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Speaker 2: this one was real and it was real, real bad.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot of drama at the top of

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Speaker 2: the damn. Some guys were trying to actually stack more

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Speaker 2: material on the top of it, but they could feel

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Speaker 2: the dam moving and so they got off and that

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Speaker 2: younger guy was like, get out there, and they were like, no,

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Speaker 2: we're not going. Is this like an earth dam? Yes.

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Speaker 2: What's interesting about this type of dam is that when

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Speaker 2: they do breach, it is almost always catastrophic because the

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Speaker 2: flow of water instantly compromises the entire structure, and it

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Speaker 2: begins just washing out the material of the dam as

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Speaker 2: you can imagine. So at two point fifty pm, the

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Speaker 2: dam is finally compromised and it collapses and the water

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Speaker 2: just comes rushing out. Now, South Fork is the first

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Speaker 2: little town to be hit by this flood. The town

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Speaker 2: thankfully is on a little bit higher ground, but twenty

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Speaker 2: or thirty houses were still destroyed. Tragically, four people were

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Speaker 2: killed in South Fork. The rest of the citizens were

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Speaker 2: able to get to safety and time, but this flood

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00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,639
Speaker 2: was just beginning and a word of warning, it's about

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Speaker 2: to get real grim. I got to ask you, Paul,

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Speaker 2: if you were in like Johnstown or South Fork that day,

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Speaker 2: would you be the guy like calmly sandbagging or you

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Speaker 2: the guy sprinting for higher ground like it's the last

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Speaker 2: chopper out of Saigon.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. My uh, my gut is always

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Speaker 1: to be the calm sandbagger. My wife's job is to

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Speaker 1: get the hell out, and that might be your job.

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Speaker 2: But what what are you doing? Like, what's your what's

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Speaker 2: your what is your adrenaline telling you to do?

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Speaker 1: I always say that my wife and I are like

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Speaker 1: kind of Kirk and Spock the way we look at

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Speaker 1: things like, I'm I'm looking at it very logically, and

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Speaker 1: my wife is like, let us go.

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Speaker 2: Oh. I love that.

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Speaker 1: I think in this moment, uh, you know, look, if

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Speaker 1: my wife gets the urge to run, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be following her.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think at a certain point it's like, you know,

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Speaker 2: when it's this insane and we're about to hear more

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Speaker 2: about it, it's like, you just run best you can.

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Speaker 2: The flood raced down the fourteen miles of the Little

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Speaker 2: Konama River Valley, destroying everything in its path.

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Speaker 1: I mean, how quickly in seconds is minutes? What have

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Speaker 1: we got here?

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00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,120
Speaker 2: It's moving a lot faster than you can run. I'll

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00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 2: put it that way, okay. At one point, the flood

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Speaker 2: was briefly stopped by railroad bridge, but it eventually pushed

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Speaker 2: past the bridge, gaining even more momentum. It raced through

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Speaker 2: to more small towns with massive force, destroying literally everything.

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Speaker 2: At this point, because the gorge is so deep, it's

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Speaker 2: sort of like funneled, and the force of the water

429
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Speaker 2: is so intense that it wipes these towns out to

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Speaker 2: the bedrock. There is nothing but bedrock left in the

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00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 2: wake of the flood, and then Johnstown residents heard a

432
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,159
Speaker 2: deafening roar before they saw it, but most even had

433
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 2: no idea that this roar could be a flood. Suddenly,

434
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 2: a massive wall of debris slammed into first the Cambria

435
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 2: Iron Works. The water swept up railroad cars, barbed wire,

436
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 2: which was a product of these steel of these steel plants.

437
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 2: It then reached Gautier Wireworks, causing boilers to explode and

438
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 2: emit black smoke, just making it a more nightmarish scenario.

439
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 2: Just fifty seven minutes after the collapse of the dam,

440
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 2: the flood reached the center of Johnstown, moving at a

441
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 2: whopping forty miles per hour, and it was up to

442
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 2: sixty feet high in some places. This wall of water

443
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 2: and debris that was just like, you know, just rushing through.

444
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: Even knowing everything that I know in the movies that

445
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: I've watched, and many of them like Day after Tomorrow,

446
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: great films, the but like that sixty feet of water, right,

447
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: and it's like and you're not You're not an island.

448
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: It's not a tsunami, but it is acting like ana

449
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: in a way. It really is acting a lot like

450
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 1: a tsunami and or an avalanche. It's sort of a

451
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: combination of the two.

452
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 2: And I remember, it's so funny because when I was

453
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 2: a kid, you know, I would hear about tsunamis and

454
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 2: I would be like, no big deal. I can swim.

455
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 2: I can serve a good swimmer, you know, But like

456
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 2: in this situation, you can't. Like, it doesn't even matter

457
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 2: how how comfortable you are in the water, how good

458
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 2: a swimmer you are, because there is it's barely water.

459
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 2: It's just it's like debris. Yeah, you're you have a

460
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 2: train wrapped in barbed wire heading for you, swimmer. Yes. Yes.

461
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,479
Speaker 2: Johnstown residents were either crushed by debris or caught up

462
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: in the barbed wire, or drowned in their homes or

463
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 2: places of work. Some folks were able to stay afloat

464
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 2: on debris waiting for help. Most people in this situation,

465
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 2: they're it's they're overtaken so quickly and there's so much

466
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 2: panic and chaos that you're just grasping for anything that

467
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 2: you can grab onto.

468
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: But this is why I travel with two hundred pound

469
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: weights on me at all times, just in case, you know,

470
00:24:59,040 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: and keeps me ground.

471
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: Know you're legendary in the rucking community.

472
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 1: It's and it's a hard of go to restaurants things

473
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: that goes out, but I'm ready for it.

474
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: It's a pain for all of us who are friends

475
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 2: with you, but yeah, it's very cool. We respect you

476
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 2: for it. Thank you. Yeah, and this is kind of

477
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 2: reminiscent of Rose in the Titanic, right, you brought in

478
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: the Titanic. She found a chunk of something to cling to. Yeah,

479
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 2: I feel like there was room for Leo to have

480
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 2: climbed up on there. But it's a big debate. I

481
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 2: don't know, Well, you know, what did you bring this up?

482
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:28,959
Speaker 2: This just came up.

483
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: Now, obviously MythBusters put it to the test, but James

484
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 1: Cameron was not happy with MythBusters and recently recreated the

485
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: water temperature and the thing and basically proved that at

486
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: the rate that Leo was hyperventilating and freezing, he could

487
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 1: not have stayed that. Funny, it just I just saw

488
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: it the other day, like he just did it the

489
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: other debt. It's amazing, which is really funny to.

490
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: Me, so fun weird, little I wouldn't may maybe not

491
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 2: a fun fact, but little additional Titanic connection here is

492
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: that our buddy Frick had actually canceled his Titanic ticket

493
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 2: because his wife had had a sprained ankle and had

494
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: to be hospitalized. So this guy, he can avoid a

495
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 2: disaster here and there. Anyway, back in the middle of Johnstown,

496
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 2: this is crazy. The Pennsylvania Railroad stone Bridge, which was

497
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: this huge stone bridge in the middle of Johnstown. It

498
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 2: became this kind of catch all filter which was so

499
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 2: building up in this bridge was all of these twisted

500
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: train rails and box cars and barbed wire and entire

501
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 2: buildings and yes, sadly, of course, lots of bodies piling

502
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 2: up against it, forming a temporary dam. Now, this dam,

503
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 2: which was sort of catching the flood, redirected floodwaters upstream

504
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 2: of the Stony Creek, which is the other river that

505
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 2: kind of comes into the town of Johnstown. So now

506
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 2: there's there's the flood is going upstream Stony Creek. It

507
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 2: reaches a sort of a point where gravity then overtakes

508
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: it again and pulls it back, unleashing ace, unleashing a

509
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 2: second wave that floods back into the city from the

510
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 2: opposite direction, which is just completely bonkers.

511
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: It's almost overwhelming to even comprehend what is going on?

512
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: It sounds like whoa but to be in it, to

513
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:28,959
Speaker 1: be there, It just seems like, well, no one can

514
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: survive this. This is this is an insurvivable situation that

515
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 1: you have presented.

516
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 2: It is nuts. Now it's about to get even more nuts.

517
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 2: If you were writing this script, Paul Scheer, and you

518
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: wanted things to get even worse in this moment, what

519
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 2: would you do?

520
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I want to break another dam. I want

521
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: to I don't know, maybe a dual dams or gosh,

522
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, think it through a fire. We

523
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: gotta have a fire. So we gotta have a fire. Okay,

524
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: here's how things actually spiraled even more. Let's just throw

525
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: in a completely new kind of natural disaster. The massive

526
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: pile of flood debris at the Stone Bridge suddenly caught fire.

527
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: At least eighty people were trapped inside the wreckage and

528
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: killed just in this inferno. The fire raged for three

529
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 1: full days, lighting up the ruins of the city, which

530
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: is just heartbreaking and incredible. Well, I imagine there's also gasoline,

531
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 1: there's things that there's oil in there, there's things that fire.

532
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, all the industrial waste of a big industrial town

533
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 2: like piled up in there.

534
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's gonna that's gonna keep it going. And trees

535
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: like trees, which is just fire fuel. It's just like

536
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: a big old mass of tons of trees that had

537
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: been ripped out. So we got black smoke, we got waves,

538
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: we got fires. This is truly a nightmare of this

539
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: is epic.

540
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: It's epic.

541
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,959
Speaker 1: This is like going on the ride at Universe Studios

542
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: where they recreate the earthquake.

543
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 2: We're seeing of it. I'm gonna say it's a little

544
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 2: worse than that, obviously, maybe k yeah, okay, all right, yeah,

545
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: maybe they threw the the bag. So by the time

546
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 2: this fire actually died out, the flood waters had receded,

547
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: and Johnstown was left with a staggering thirty acre heap

548
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 2: of wreckage. Oh my lord, in some places seventy feet

549
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 2: high just the wreckage. This would take nearly three months

550
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 2: to clear out. We have a famous image taken from

551
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: the cleanup here. This is the Schultz family house. The

552
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 2: six people living in that house survived. Wow. This is

553
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: an iconic photo that a lot of people think just

554
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: sort of captures the insanity. There's so much cognitive dissonance

555
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 2: looking at that.

556
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: It clearly went on a little bit of a journey,

557
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: like this house is and not where it was, and wow,

558
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: and the way that that tree goes through, like if

559
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: you were picturing the house is like two eyes in

560
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: a mouth. It's gone through one of the eyes of

561
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: the top half of the windows there, and it's really yeah,

562
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: oh it's massive.

563
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: Oh he'll need a glass eye for sure. I mean,

564
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 2: let's get into the aftermath. The magnitude of the Johnstown

565
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 2: flood was unimaginable. It ended in seventeen million in damage,

566
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: which is six hundred million today. And this is a

567
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 2: Remember this is a town of thirty thousand people. It's

568
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 2: not like New York City, Like this is just an

569
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: epic wipeout for this town. Two thousand, two hundred and

570
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 2: nine people were killed, which made it the largest loss

571
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: of civilian life my lord at the time.

572
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: All because a hunting and fishing club wanted to catch

573
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: some fish a little bit easier.

574
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: Well, I guess, yeah, but yeah, I mean did you

575
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 2: taste those fishball? I mean, it was so easy to catch,

576
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: so easy to catch those fish. The loss of life

577
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: was epic, and it wouldn't be surpassed until nineteen hundred

578
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 2: when the Galveston hurricane hit, which was also another topic

579
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 2: natural disaster. This is crazy. There were even reports of

580
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: the flood carrying bodies as far as Cincinnati, Ohio like

581
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: way way down river. Reportedly, one baby survived on the

582
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: floor of a house as it floated seventy five miles

583
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: downriver from Johnstown.

584
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: Isn't that like baby Moses? Didn't they put baby Moses

585
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: in one of those like a little carrier in the water.

586
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: Is that baby Moses?

587
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 2: But he didn't wash away? They just hit him in

588
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:27,719
Speaker 2: the reeds.

589
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 3: And my buddy, Yeah, this little baby washed away seventy

590
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 3: seventy five miles away, and wow, and it was fine.

591
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 2: And that little baby grew up to be me well ed. Ah,

592
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: all right. So news spread rapidly to the surrounding areas,

593
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 2: and support was provided in the form of clothing, disinfectants,

594
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: fish bread, cigars, whiskey, and weirdly, twenty pounds of ham,

595
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 2: among other useful items. There's a lot more to this

596
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 2: recovery effort that I wish I could get into more,

597
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: because it's incredibly beautiful and cool. But this is one

598
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: of the first large scale rescue efforts by the American

599
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 2: Red Cross and It's sort of like a huge scale

600
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: disaster relief and it really kind of changed the game

601
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 2: for disaster response.

602
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: When you were saying this, I was starting to put

603
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: together things. I remember, is this the first time that

604
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: the Red Cross exists? Or no, the Red Cross didn't exist,

605
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: but this is the first time they were called into action.

606
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: I think it's the first time they were called into

607
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: action in this capacity. Clara Barton was a huge part

608
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: of this recovery effort and stayed in the region for

609
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: a long period of time, kind of running logistics and

610
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: just further cemented her legendary status as a humanitarian. There's

611
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,479
Speaker 1: a part of me it goes, do you I mean,

612
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: I guess you have to rebuild on some level you

613
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: have to, But should I mean, I don't know. It's

614
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: like is it worth Is it worth rebuilding? Because it

615
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: could all happen again? And this is kind of the

616
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: same thing that happens in New Orleans when the dam

617
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: broke in New Orleans? Is this too dangerous to do again?

618
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: I mean? Or do they find a way to just go?

619
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: You know what, We're gonna put more safety measures in yet.

620
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 2: Paul, I think you're forgetting that we're as a species

621
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,959
Speaker 2: like we're basically cockroaches, Like we just we just got

622
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 2: to make it work wherever the hell we are and

623
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: uh acres and start going again. Yeah, you're asking questions

624
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 2: that really have no place here, Paul. No, but but

625
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: but there certainly were a lot of kind of infrastructure

626
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 2: considerations that went into the redevelopment and rebuilding of John's

627
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 2: Town and the entire region that had been rather carelessly

628
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: handled and or completely overlooked obviously beforehand. The answer is, yes,

629
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: they rebuilt. They felt the need to rebuild. It was

630
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: a very strategic location for so many some of the

631
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: industries at the time, and it was rebuilt a lot

632
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: more safely. That did not prevent future floods. Unfortunately, there

633
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 2: were future floods in Johnstown and still are time to time.

634
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 2: But but it is it is much safer than, of

635
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 2: course it was.

636
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: But the fishing has gone down, and and that's why

637
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: that's why I stopped, you know, being a member of

638
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: that club, because the back when the fishing was good

639
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: for a little bit, and they really you know, it

640
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: went down here after that. No one talks about that.

641
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: No one talks about how the fishing and that club

642
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: went down.

643
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 2: Now you know what, there's a reason for that, Paul.

644
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 2: I'm just being honest.

645
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: That's a kind of a shitty take, because, like I mean,

646
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: I'm paying top dollar to be in this hunting fishing

647
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: club and I've got a lot.

648
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 2: Of auntish fishing really good, right, damn it? Okay, So

649
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 2: let me just throw this out there, because in times

650
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,959
Speaker 2: of disaster or mass casualties like this, I think something

651
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: incredible about human nature emerges. We raw for each other.

652
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 2: We were just talking about some of the rescue efforts

653
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 2: Claire Barton among others, and all of these incredible resources

654
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 2: that just flooded into the region. Sorry for the terrible metaphor,

655
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: but so much support came just kicked in from all around.

656
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: We rally for each other, We come together, We help

657
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 2: each other in these ways that might have seemed unthinkable

658
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 2: just a day before a tragedy like this. Do you

659
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 2: agree that this is such an incredible thing of humanity?

660
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 2: Do you see it around you sometimes? And why is

661
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,399
Speaker 2: it so fucking rare? Not that it's rare, but why

662
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 2: do we have to wait for disasters for this side

663
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: of us to emerge?

664
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 1: I you know, it's interesting. I will say that being

665
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: in New York City during nine to eleven. It was

666
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: I talk about this is like one of the most

667
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 1: beautiful times post one to eleven in the sense of agreed,

668
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: the way that the city came together neighbors and you know,

669
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a lot of good will. Yeah,

670
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: and you know we even see out here at the

671
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: fires that happened this year, like there's a lot of

672
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 1: how do we make a difference, how do we pull together?

673
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 1: And you're right, and I think that ultimately we are society,

674
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: you're cockroaches. We fall into patterns, and there are many

675
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 1: people like a Claire Barton and many other wonderful people

676
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: who devote their lives to making sure that everybody has

677
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: the same access to whatever, and we just get selfish

678
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: and we forget and we forget about it. And then

679
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: every now and then we see a commercial or we

680
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: hear about something, or we get caught up because we

681
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: have a personal connection to it, and then we move

682
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 1: into action. But every now and then, when there's something

683
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: that is undeniable where everybody kind of kicks and it's it's.

684
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: It's the best of us, yea, The worst of us

685
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: can bring out the best of us. Now, of course,

686
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 2: as soon as the floodwater was dry, people began to

687
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 2: look for someone to blame for the tragedy, and it

688
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 2: wasn't long before the town turned to the south Folk

689
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 2: Fishing and Hunting Club, which you have to say, like that,

690
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 2: the South Southfolk Fishing Hunting Con and of course our

691
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 2: old friend Henry Clay Frick.

692
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: Now here's the question that I got for you. If

693
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: I'm Henry Frick, I'm like, maybe I should have gone

694
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: on that Titanic because I don't want to face the

695
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: wrath well of this town.

696
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 2: He's gonna be fine, don't worry, Okay. Survivors of the

697
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 2: flood sued the club. The American Society of Civil Engineers

698
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 2: launched a massive investigation. It ultimately concluded that while the

699
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 2: dam was modified to be less secure, it would have

700
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: failed either way. Now, it should be noted that the

701
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: American Society of Civil Engineers was bankrolled by legendary tycoon

702
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 2: Andrew Carnegie. Wow Okay, okay, himself a member of the

703
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 2: South Fork Hunting and Fishing Club. Of course he was.

704
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: It was good fishing. So perhaps they were not the

705
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 2: most neutral referee in this matter. And indeed, more research

706
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 2: in recent times has very much questioned those findings. Still,

707
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 2: the courts ultimately ruled the flood was merely a quote

708
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: act of God.

709
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: Well, you know, here's something that's interesting about it. This

710
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: is a bona fide natural disaster that maybe in a

711
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: way was worsened by damn precautions or maybe even staved

712
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: off for I don't know, Like you don't know. I

713
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 1: think that sometimes these are the things that change our lives.

714
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: The Titanic is sent like created all these regulations, like

715
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: these OCEHA regulations, these.

716
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 2: Things that we would never have. I think you're being generous.

717
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 2: Why am I on the side of the tacooons They

718
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: shouldn't be on there. Always you're always thinking of for

719
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 2: the for the moneyed interests. I just want to get that.

720
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: I want to get that membership from back. Whether or

721
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 2: not it was criminal, we can never know necessarily, but

722
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 2: but that bad mistakes were made. There's more details about

723
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 2: someone who was offering to make the necessary fixes to

724
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 2: the damn in advance of of all of this, and

725
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: and they were just like I would be to inconvenient

726
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: for the club, so we're not going to do it.

727
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:03,879
Speaker 1: And well, yeah, because you don't want to have those

728
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 1: people out there working. When you catch a fish, you

729
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: don't bang and bang. Well, they probably have to drain

730
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: the lake in order to make come here for peace

731
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: of mind to get a bang bang bang bang bang.

732
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. Well, either way, without a legal obligation

733
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 2: to do so, Frick and the club never accepted responsibility.

734
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 2: This is what This is a very common theme throughout

735
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 2: my study of tafoos. Virtually no one ever is held

736
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 2: accountable in any way. Frick, however, did go on to

737
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 2: be embroiled in other controversies, and he even did a

738
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: few good things. Also, he amassed the incredible Frick art

739
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 2: collection in New York City. Oh it's the same risk

740
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 2: that freaking guy. I love that art collection. Yes, the Frick.

741
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 2: I took many trips to the Frick, and I enjoyed.

742
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 2: I enjoyed the Frick, And now I am I am

743
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,439
Speaker 2: frustrated to know that what a scoundrel he might have been.

744
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 2: But Frick was also part of the super Anti Union

745
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,760
Speaker 2: for that led to the violent homestead strike in eighteen

746
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 2: ninety two. He even survived an assassination attempt during it.

747
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 2: Not to tease you, but we will save that snapoo

748
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 2: for another day. Ooh, I love that. Indeed, we were

749
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 2: talking before about some of the ways the infrastructure was

750
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: improved after the flood. This is interesting. Johnstown built an

751
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,800
Speaker 2: inclined railway in eighteen ninety, which allowed folks to easily

752
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 2: go back and forth from the nearby town of Westmont,

753
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 2: which was at a much higher elevation, safer from flooding,

754
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 2: et cetera, as well as safer from the leftover pollution.

755
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 2: Here's a photo of the incline railway. We look at that. Great,

756
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 2: So there go.

757
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they made some changes, some good changes. But

758
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: here's let I say, like, for somebody like Frick, do

759
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: you think that he feels any responsibility or when you're

760
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: in that level, the reason why you're that successful there,

761
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: the reason why you're that wealthy is because you don't ever.

762
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 2: Navel gaze. You never you never think it's my fault.

763
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 2: That is a great question, and it is one of

764
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 2: the things that I never I just never understand about

765
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 2: people who do like large scale, dastardly things, Like I

766
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: think that in order to sort of persevere as a

767
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 2: tycoon of this nature, like you have to have the

768
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 2: most toxic coping mechanisms. You are never analyzing these things.

769
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 2: You're never even considering the possibility that you might be culpable,

770
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 2: except in the in the possibility that you might face

771
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 2: legal repercussions, in which case you're like mounting your legal defense.

772
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 2: And it is it is amazing the extent to which

773
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 2: powerful and or wealthy people escape culpability, both literally and

774
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 2: to your question, I think even in their own conscience.

775
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 2: I think on some.

776
00:41:55,080 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 1: Level every great leader, tycoon, even at fleet, has to

777
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: have this ability to separate themselves from their actions, because

778
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: I don't think you could go to bed at night.

779
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: I always say that if every president has to be

780
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: a little bit insane or at least narcissistic, because you're saying,

781
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: I'm taking the whole world on my shoulders, and if

782
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: people die you Eric, well, all right, I'll get them tomorrow.

783
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: And you know, because you have to get back up.

784
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 2: They will. People will die under your watch as a

785
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 2: president person.

786
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,919
Speaker 1: And I think that's the thing that unites all these people,

787
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 1: and for better and for worse, it's just a very

788
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: I would even say Claire Barton probably is like that

789
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: to a certain day.

790
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 2: I have to keep on moving. I can't take on

791
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 2: all this grief yeah. Yeah, So finally, Paul Yes, being

792
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 2: a guy who dissects Hollywood's most baffling films, you will

793
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 2: appreciate this. In nineteen twenty six, they actually made The

794
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 2: Johnstown Flood as a silent disaster movie, and like any

795
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 2: great disaster flick, the plot is shaky, but the special

796
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 2: effects for the time were spectacular. Can we just see

797
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 2: this one little clip? This is exciting.

798
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: Whoa, Oh my goodness, I'm already love it. I'm gonna

799
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: watch this entire special effectsh holy cow.

800
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a great mind blowing wow. So you

801
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 2: can tell it's all done in miniature, yeah, yeah, yeah.

802
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 2: And then and then watch how it's Watch how it's

803
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 2: like superimposed or double exposed somehow some of the filmmaking.

804
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 1: Wow, this is fascinating. I just been blown away by

805
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: the amount of.

806
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,439
Speaker 2: Wow did how do they do that? That looks so real?

807
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 1: That looks unbelievable. I don't even understand it because people

808
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: are flying away too, and they're the thing people. The

809
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: special effects that were going on in these early days

810
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: are truly outstanding. You know, these sci fi movies, like

811
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: when you think about what they had and what they

812
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 1: were that looked amazing.

813
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, Paul, how did this get made? I mean, and

814
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 2: I don't mean that ironically in the way that you do.

815
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 2: I mean, how did they actually do?

816
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: And I Am going to get actually amazing podcast and

817
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:06,720
Speaker 1: do some research because I'm interested.

818
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: Paul Sheer, this has been a goddamn delight. What a blast,

819
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 2: What a fun blast. I just I love deconstructing with

820
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 2: you about anything.

821
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: What a gift this this is because every one of

822
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: these it makes me feel smarter. I did not know

823
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: about the Johnstone flood, and yes it was awful, but

824
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 1: I feel good that these guys got some good fishing

825
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:30,959
Speaker 1: in and that you know, so that was a moral

826
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 1: of it, right that.

827
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 2: They go there was some good fishing the of course. No,

828
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 2: I really do love it, appreciate how your brain works,

829
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 2: and I'm really grateful that you came on and share

830
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 2: happy to be here. Thank you Ed for having me.

831
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 2: What a blast, of course. Cheers by Snapoo is a

832
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 2: production of iHeart Podcasts and Snapoo Media, a partnership between

833
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 2: Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. Our post

834
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 2: production studio is Gilded Audio. Our executive producers are me

835
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: Ed Elms, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim, Whitney Donaldson,

836
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 2: and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino

837
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 2: and Tory Smith. Our video editor is Jared Smith. Technical

838
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 2: direction and engineering from Nick Dooley. Our creative executive is

839
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,240
Speaker 2: Brett Harris. Logo and branding by The Collected Works. Legal

840
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 2: review from Dan Welsh, Meghan Halson and Caroline Johnson. Special

841
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein, and everyone

842
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 2: at iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Kerry Leeberman, Nikki Etoor,

843
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 2: Nathan Otowski and Alex Corral. While I have you, don't

844
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 2: forget to pick up a copy of my book, Snafoo,

845
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 2: The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest screw Ups. It's available

846
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 2: now from any book retailer. Just go to Snaffoo dashbook

847
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 2: dot com. Thanks for listening and see you next week.

848
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 2: S